Can we believe the Bible completely ?! Part 2

[culi26]

Can we believe the Bible completely? Part 2

Who told the truth about this event?! Ezra or Nehemiah?!

Let's make a comparison between Ezra and Nehemiah, and find out the truth!! But, is there a truth in this case?

Ezra 2:1 Now these were the people of the province who came up out of the captivity of those exiles whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried captive to Babylonia. They returned to Jerusalem and Judah, each to his own town.
2 They came with Zerubbabel, Jeshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah, Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispar, Bigvai, Rehum, and Baanah.

Nehemiah 7:6 These were the people of the province who came up out of the captivity of those exiles whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried into exile. They returned to Jerusalem and Judah, each to his town. 7 They came with Zerubbabel, Jeshua, Nehemiah, Azariah, Raamiah, Nahamani, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispereth, Bigvai, Nehum, Baanah.

Ezra 2:5 The sons of Arah, 775.
Nehemiah 7:10 The sons of Arah, 652.

Ezra 2:6 The sons of Pahath-moab, namely the sons of Jeshua and Joab, 2,812.
Nehemiah 7:11 The sons of Pahath-moab, namely the sons of Jeshua and Joab, 2,818.

Ezra 2:8 The sons of Zattu, 945.
Nehemiah 7:13 The sons of Zattu, 845.

Ezra 2:11 The sons of Bebai, 623.
Nehemiah 7:16 The sons of Bebai, 628.

Ezra 2:12 The sons of Azgad, 1,222.
Nehemiah 7:17 The sons of Azgad, 2,322.

Ezra 2:13 The sons of Adonikam, 666.
Nehemiah 7:18 The sons of Adonikam, 667.

Ezra 2:15 The sons of Adin, 454.
Nehemiah 7:20 The sons of Adin, 655.

Ezra 2:17 The sons of Bezai, 323.
Nehemiah 7:23 The sons of Bezai, 324.

Ezra 2:19 The sons of Hashum, 223.
Nehemiah 7:22 The sons of Hashum, 328.

Ezra 2:21 The sons of Bethlehem, 123. 22 The men of Netophah, 56. (123+56=179)
Nehemiah 7:26 The men of Bethlehem and Netophah, 188.

Ezra 2:28 The men of Bethel and Ai, 223.
Nehemiah 7:32 The men of Bethel and Ai, 123.

Ezra 2:33 The sons of Lod, Hadid, and Ono, 725.
Nehemiah 7:37 The sons of Lod, Hadid, and Ono, 721.

Ezra 2:35 The sons of Senaah, 3,630.
Nehemiah 7:38 The sons of Senaah, 3,930.

Ezra 2:41 The singers: the sons of Asaph, 128.
Nehemiah 7:44 The singers: the sons of Asaph, 148.

Ezra 2:42 The sons of the gatekeepers: the sons of Shallum, the sons of Ater, the sons of Talmon, the sons of Akkub, the sons of Hatita, and the sons of Shobai, in all 139.
Nehemiah 7:44 The singers: the sons of Asaph, 148. 45 The gatekeepers: the sons of Shallum, the sons of Ater, the sons of Talmon, the sons of Akkub, the sons of Hatita, the sons of Shobai, 138.

Ezra 2:59 The following were those who came up from Tel-melah, Tel-harsha, Cherub, Addan, and Immer, though they could not prove their fathers' houses or their descent, whether they belonged to Israel: 60 the sons of Delaiah, the sons of Tobiah, and the sons of Nekoda, 652.
Nehemiah 7:61 The following were those who came up from Tel-melah, Tel-harsha, Cherub, Addon, and Immer, but they could not prove their fathers' houses nor their descent, whether they belonged to Israel: 62 the sons of Delaiah, the sons of Tobiah, the sons of Nekoda, 642.

Ezra 2:65 besides their male and female servants, of whom there were 7,337, and they had 200 male and female singers.
Nehemiah 7:67 besides their male and female servants, of whom there were 7,337. And they had 245 singers, male and female.

How is it possible that after all these inconsistencies, the total number of the whole assembly is the same in both chapters?!

Ezra 2:64 The whole assembly together was 42,360.
Nehemiah 7:66 The whole assembly together was 42,360.

[culi26]

To deceive people is much, much easier, than to try to convince them that they are deceived.

[sylvius]

To deceive people is much, much easier, than to try to convince them that they are deceived.

It's even worse:

Mundus vult decipi = the world wants to be deceived.

(after Genesis 1:28,

And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and deceive it" . )

[duxrow]

:sCo_hmmthink:
Comparing Ezra2 with Neh7 -- and note how Ezra did NOT 'find a register'. The names Mordecai and Azariah in the 'register' of Neh7:7 are worthy of note, but why? Is it a worthy goal to achieve? :rolleyes:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

It's even worse:

Mundus vult decipi = the world wants to be deceived.

(after Genesis 1:28,

And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and deceive it" . )

That's not what the text says:
Genesis 1:28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Here is the word translated as "subdue" -
כבש kabash a primitive root; TWOT - 951; v AV - subdue 8, bring into subjection 3, bring into bondage 2, keep under 1, force 1, ; 15 1) to subject, subdue, force, keep under, bring into bondage 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to bring into bondage, make subservient 1a2) to subdue, force, violate 1a3) to subdue, dominate, tread down 1b) (Niphal) to be subdued 1c) (Piel) to subdue 1d) (Hiphil) to bring into bondage

How do you get the idea of "deceive" from that word?

And even if it did mean "deceive" how would you go from that to your idea that the world "wants to be deceived"?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

To deceive people is much, much easier, than to try to convince them that they are deceived.
Very true indeed.

[sylvius]

That's not what the text says:
Genesis 1:28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Here is the word translated as "subdue" -
כבש kabash a primitive root; TWOT - 951; v AV - subdue 8, bring into subjection 3, bring into bondage 2, keep under 1, force 1, ; 15 1) to subject, subdue, force, keep under, bring into bondage 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to bring into bondage, make subservient 1a2) to subdue, force, violate 1a3) to subdue, dominate, tread down 1b) (Niphal) to be subdued 1c) (Piel) to subdue 1d) (Hiphil) to bring into bondage

How do you get the idea of "deceive" from that word?

And even if it did mean "deceive" how would you go from that to your idea that the world "wants to be deceived"?"

"Mundus vult decipi" is a saying my mother often used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mundus_vult_decipi,_ergo_decipiatur

It was kind of a joke to read for "v'chivshuha" "and deceive it".

But maybe not so bad at all.

Since the earth was cursed because of Adam's sin (Genesis 3:17, "cursed be the ground for your sake; with toil shall you eat of it all the days of your life"- with as consquence that it brought forth "tree making fruit" instead of "fruit tree making fruit" (Genesis 1:12), of which "God saw that it was good" -- He had intended it that way. "tov", good, being the 153rd word from the beginning.

Note what Rashi said on "v'chivshuha":

The“vav” [in וְכִבְשֻׁהָ is missing, [allowing the word to be read וְכִבְשָׁה, the masculine singular imperative] to teach you that the male subdues the female that she should not be a gadabout (Gen. Rabbah 8:12), and it is also meant to teach you that the man, whose way it is to subdue, is commanded to propagate, but not the woman (Yev. Yev. 65b).

Weinreb saw a play on the word "keves" = lamb. "keves" written with left punctuated "shin", while "kavash" is written wiht right punctuated "shin" ("kevesh"= footstool).

"Be (as) a lamb to the world"

Same notion might underly Matthew 10:16,
Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be shrewd as serpents and pure as doves.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Can we believe the Bible completely? Part 2

Who told the truth about this event?! Ezra or Nehemiah?!

Let's make a comparison between Ezra and Nehemiah, and find out the truth!! But, is there a truth in this case?

How is it possible that after all these inconsistencies, the total number of the whole assembly is the same in both chapters?!

Ezra 2:64 The whole assembly together was 42,360.
Nehemiah 7:66 The whole assembly together was 42,360.
Thanks for taking the time to post this fascinating information. I say "fascinating" because the numbers and names are close enough to make it impossible to "explain" all the discrepancies as anything but errors. This one post is sufficient to destroy the false fundamentalist doctrine that says the Bible is the "inerrant and infallible Word of God."

It is particularly curious that they gave the same totals.

The nature of the discrepancies - that they frequently are exact multiples of ten - shows that they are probably from a very sloppy scribe who couldn't read numbers well. This conclusion is supported by the fact that none but one of the census numbers are themselves a multiple of ten, whereas many of the differences are. Ten is the number of the base used in the Bible, so this shows that the error probably arose from misinterpreting the numbers which were written in base ten.



Name

Ezra
Nehemiah
Difference


Arah
775
652
-123


Pahath-moab
2812
2818
6


Zattu
945
845
-100


Bebai
623
628
5


Azgad
1222
2322
1100


Adonikam
666
667
1


Adin
454
655
201


Bezai
323
324
1


Hashum
223
328
105


Bethlehem
179
188
9


Bethel and Ai
223
123
-100


Lod, Hadid, Ono
725
721
-4


Senaah
3630
3930
300


Asaph
128
148
20


Ater, etc.
139
138
-1


Tel-Mela, etc.
652
642
-10


servants
7337
7337
0


singers
200
245
45



TOTAL

21256

22711

1445

[culi26]

Thanks for taking the time to post this fascinating information. I say "fascinating" because the numbers and names are close enough to make it impossible to "explain" all the discrepancies as anything but errors. This one post is sufficient to destroy the false fundamentalist doctrine that says the Bible is the "inerrant and infallible Word of God."

It is particularly curious that they gave the same totals.

The nature of the discrepancies - that they frequently are exact multiples of ten - shows that they are probably from a very sloppy scribe who couldn't read numbers well. This conclusion is supported by the fact that none but one of the census numbers are themselves a multiple of ten, whereas many of the differences are. Ten is the number of the base used in the Bible, so this shows that the error probably arose from misinterpreting the numbers which were written in base ten.



Name

Ezra
Nehemiah
Difference


Arah
775
652
-123


Pahath-moab
2812
2818
6


Zattu
945
845
-100


Bebai
623
628
5


Azgad
1222
2322
1100


Adonikam
666
667
1


Adin
454
655
201


Bezai
323
324
1


Hashum
223
328
105


Bethlehem
179
188
9


Bethel and Ai
223
123
-100


Lod, Hadid, Ono
725
721
-4


Senaah
3630
3930
300


Asaph
128
148
20


Ater, etc.
139
138
-1


Tel-Mela, etc.
652
642
-10


servants
7337
7337
0


singers
200
245
45



TOTAL

21256

22711

1445




Thank you for calculations