Can we believe the Bible completely ?!

[culi26]

Is there a possibility that the Bible has been corrupted ?
I'll show you one proof !!

Contradiction in the genealogy !!!!!!!

1Chronicles 3:10-17 ------ Matthew 1:7-12

1.Solomon ------ 1.Solomon
2.Rehoboam ------ 2.Rehoboam
3.Abijah ------ 3.Abijah
4.Asa ------ 4.Asa
5.Jehoshaphat ------ 5.Jehoshaphat
6.Joram ------ 6.Joram
7.Ahaziah ------ ????????????
8.Joash ------ ????????????
9.Amaziah ------ ????????????
10.AZARIAH ------ 7.UZZIAH
11.Jotham ------ 8.Jotham
12.Ahaz ------ 9.Ahaz
13.Hezekiah ------ 10.Hezekiah
14.Manasseh ------ 11.Manaseh
15.Amon ------ 12.Amon
16.Josiah ------ 13.Josiah
17.Jehoiakim ------ ????????????
18.Jeconiah ------ 14.Jeconiah
19.Shealtiel ------ 15.Shealtiel

Proof that Azariah(10) and Uzziah(7) are the same person:

2Kings 14:21-22 21 And all the people of Judah took AZARIAH, who was sixteen years old, and made him king instead of his father AMAZIAH. 22 He built ELATH and restored it to Judah, after the king slept with his fathers.
2Kings 15:1-2 .....AZARIAH the son of AMAZIAH, king of Judah, began to reign. 2 He was sixteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty-two years in Jerusalem. His mother's name was JECOLIAH of Jerusalem.

2Chronicles 26:1-2 And all the people of Judah took UZZIAH, who was sixteen years old, and made him king instead of his father AMAZIAH. 2 He built ELOTH and restored it to Judah, after the king slept with his fathers.
2Chronicles 26:3 Uzziah was sixteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty-two years in Jerusalem. His mother's name was JECOLIAH of Jerusalem

Now, when we have proved that AZARIAH and UZZIAH are the same person, why three generations are missing in Matthew, between Joram and Uzziah???
And also Matthew probably forgot that Jeconiah(14) is grandson of Josiah according to Chronicles, but in the case of Matthew he is his son !!!!!!!!!

Is it possible that Matthew was not filled with the Holy Spirit? Or is it possible that The Holy Spirit probably did not give accurate information to Matthew?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Is there a possibility that the Bible has been corrupted ?
I'll show you one proof !!

Contradiction in the genealogy !!!!!!!

1Chronicles 3:10-17 ------ Matthew 1:7-12

1.Solomon ------ 1.Solomon
2.Rehoboam ------ 2.Rehoboam
3.Abijah ------ 3.Abijah
4.Asa ------ 4.Asa
5.Jehoshaphat ------ 5.Jehoshaphat
6.Joram ------ 6.Joram
7.Ahaziah ------ ????????????
8.Joash ------ ????????????
9.Amaziah ------ ????????????
10.AZARIAH ------ 7.UZZIAH
11.Jotham ------ 8.Jotham
12.Ahaz ------ 9.Ahaz
13.Hezekiah ------ 10.Hezekiah
14.Manasseh ------ 11.Manaseh
15.Amon ------ 12.Amon
16.Josiah ------ 13.Josiah
17.Jehoiakim ------ ????????????
18.Jeconiah ------ 14.Jeconiah
19.Shealtiel ------ 15.Shealtiel

Proof that Azariah(10) and Uzziah(7) are the same person:

2Kings 14:21-22 21 And all the people of Judah took AZARIAH, who was sixteen years old, and made him king instead of his father AMAZIAH. 22 He built ELATH and restored it to Judah, after the king slept with his fathers.
2Kings 15:1-2 .....AZARIAH the son of AMAZIAH, king of Judah, began to reign. 2 He was sixteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty-two years in Jerusalem. His mother's name was JECOLIAH of Jerusalem.

2Chronicles 26:1-2 And all the people of Judah took UZZIAH, who was sixteen years old, and made him king instead of his father AMAZIAH. 2 He built ELOTH and restored it to Judah, after the king slept with his fathers.
2Chronicles 26:3 Uzziah was sixteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty-two years in Jerusalem. His mother's name was JECOLIAH of Jerusalem

Now, when we have proved that AZARIAH and UZZIAH are the same person, why three generations are missing in Matthew, between Joram and Uzziah???
And also Matthew probably forgot that Jeconiah(14) is grandson of Josiah according to Chronicles, but in the case of Matthew he is his son !!!!!!!!!

Is it possible that Matthew was not filled with the Holy Spirit? Or is it possible that The Holy Spirit probably did not give accurate information to Matthew?

Hey there culi26, :tea:

Welcome to our forum!

:welcome:

Thanks for the presentation of that data. Personally, I think it is incontrovertible that the genealogies are contradictory and hence wrong, but I don't think this is evidence of "corruption" because that assumes that there the "original text" was accurate. I have no reason to make that presupposition. It is obvious that Matthew was designed his genealogy to fit a pattern of 14, and that's why he deliberately left out those three generations. So we have good reason to think that the original manuscript contained the error.

Honest apologists will admit that Matthew's genealogy is not factually correct, but then assert that it was not his intent to write a factually accurate genealogy but rather to compose a structured nmemonic based on the numerical value of David in Hebrew gematria (DVD = 14). This coheres with his theme of Christ as the son of David. I have no problem with this, but we should note that it directly contradicts the fundamentalist assertion that the Bible is the "inerrant and infallible Word of God."

Thanks again for the info. I look forward to your contributions to our discussions.

Richard

[culi26]

Hey there culi26, :tea:

Welcome to our forum!

:welcome:

Thanks for the presentation of that data. Personally, I think it is incontrovertible that the genealogies are contradictory and hence wrong, but I don't think this is evidence of "corruption" because that assumes that there the "original text" was accurate. I have no reason to make that presupposition. It is obvious that Matthew was designed his genealogy to fit a pattern of 14, and that's why he deliberately left out those three generations. So we have good reason to think that the original manuscript contained the error.

Honest apologists will admit that Matthew's genealogy is not factually correct, but then assert that it was not his intent to write a factually accurate genealogy but rather to compose a structured nmemonic based on the numerical value of David in Hebrew gematria (DVD = 14). This coheres with his theme of Christ as the son of David. I have no problem with this, but we should note that it directly contradicts the fundamentalist assertion that the Bible is the "inerrant and infallible Word of God."

Thanks again for the info. I look forward to your contributions to our discussions.

Richard

The Word of God is inerrant, but is it the Bible the Word of God?!

What i'm trying to explain here is that the Bible was not written under the inspiration, as the scriptures are claiming, Paul actually. For me his case is very suspicious!!!

If God wills, i'm going to present more proofs that will put into question the Bible authenticity!

It's not enough just to believe that the Bible is inerrant word of God, and never read it.

[duxrow]

:anim_32:
Is the Glass half-full, or half-empty? In this case, it's Both. But in arguing whether Cain murdered brother Abel, there's no two ways about it.

1John3:12 "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous". Confirming Genesis--adding detail.

Heb12:16 "Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright". Confirming Genesis--adding detail.

So you're looking for ways and arguments and POV which support 'unbelief' in the Bible, and I'm looking for those that agree. Naturally, we each try to avoid those subjects which don't help our cause, and those cases where our personal understanding or knowledge isn't the greatest (because everyone has a few anomalies in their education). The Law of the Debater, eh? Hopefully, in our case, it's keeping the cobwebs from forming on our numbskulls. Appreciate the banter, Richard, and thanks for this forum. You too, Culi, have at it!:yo:

[CWH]

:anim_32:
Is the Glass half-full, or half-empty? In this case, it's Both. But in arguing whether Cain murdered brother Abel, there's no two ways about it.

1John3:12 "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous". Confirming Genesis--adding detail.

Heb12:16 "Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright". Confirming Genesis--adding detail.

So you're looking for ways and arguments and POV which support 'unbelief' in the Bible, and I'm looking for those that agree. Naturally, we each try to avoid those subjects which don't help our cause, and those cases where our personal understanding or knowledge isn't the greatest (because everyone has a few anomalies in their education). The Law of the Debater, eh? Hopefully, in our case, it's keeping the cobwebs from forming on our numbskulls. Appreciate the banter, Richard, and thanks for this forum. You too, Culi, have at it!:yo:

We must understand that the Bible have been copied through many hundreds scribes and several hundred times and as a result mistakes are bound to occur. Therefore it is human mistakes and if it is human mistakes then humans should fixed it. Don't expect God to cross every t and dot every i. Besides scribal mistakes, we should also be aware that there could be deliberate or unintentional changes and misinterpretations of the scribes. This may also be caused by the different languages that these scribes have to translate and even add their own cultures and mythologies so as to give better understandings to their contemporary readers. As a result, there will be mistakes in the Bible and these mistakes are all minor and unimportant,...Azariah or Uzziah so what? Matthew missed 3 generations so what? What is important is the the main gist that will lead us to heaven is not corrupted such as the ten Commandments and the two main commandments of Jesus i.e. to love God with all your heart, soul and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself. As long as Jesus mentioned the OT scriptures, these are considered as uncorrupted scriptures.

The Bible is written purposefully and symbolically in many areas and accidentally with human errors. It is for human to figure out the symbolic meanings and fix the human errors so that a deeeeeper understanding of the Bible will ensue. Such deeper understandings will lead to the truth and a better insight of what is the purpose of our existence and God's plans. The more we know and understand about God, the more we will appreciates what he was doing and the more we can withstand the temptations of the evil one.

Such human errors and alterations not only occurs in the Bible also occurs in other religious books such as the Koran, Sutras etc. as well.

May God Bless us. :pray:

[duxrow]

:talk005:
People die, some show up or are born. They come and go, in the Real World. And strange things happen--just google Robt. Ripley.. The Bible tells it from a real world ! And real truth about real people. But the Bible only gives you the details that GOD wants you to have!

John21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written". Amen:yo:

[David M]

We must understand that the Bible have been copied through many hundreds scribes and several hundred times and as a result mistakes are bound to occur. Therefore it is human mistakes and if it is human mistakes then humans should fixed it. Don't expect God to cross every t and dot every i. Besides scribal mistakes, we should also be aware that there could be deliberate or unintentional changes and misinterpretations of the scribes. This may also be caused by the different languages that these scribes have to translate and even add their own cultures and mythologies so as to give better understandings to their contemporary readers. As a result, there will be mistakes in the Bible and these mistakes are all minor and unimportant,...Azariah or Uzziah so what? Matthew missed 3 generations so what? What is important is the the main gist that will lead us to heaven is not corrupted such as the ten Commandments and the two main commandments of Jesus i.e. to love God with all your heart, soul and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself. As long as Jesus mentioned the OT scriptures, these are considered as uncorrupted scriptures.

The Bible is written purposefully and symbolically in many areas and accidentally with human errors. It is for human to figure out the symbolic meanings and fix the human errors so that a deeeeeper understanding of the Bible will ensue. Such deeper understandings will lead to the truth and a better insight of what is the purpose of our existence and God's plans. The more we know and understand about God, the more we will appreciates what he was doing and the more we can withstand the temptations of the evil one.

Such human errors and alterations not only occurs in the Bible also occurs in other religious books such as the Koran, Sutras etc. as well.

May God Bless us. :pray:

Hello Cheow

I will just say "Amen" to what you have written. A few errors and discrepancies do not alter the basic truth of God's word. Just as well we have two or more verses that corroborate doctrines and are witnesses to the truth. I would worry if we did not have more than one verse by which to judge. Knowing there are errors and discrepancies keeps us on our toes; it does not help us if complacency sets in.

These genealogies were discussed in another thread recently and as I remember, the missing three generations were coincident with the captivity of Judah in Babylon. Why is Jehoiakim missing from the list? I will have to keep looking for a reason for that one. I would be very worried if the lists had many differing names that could not be reconciled. It is as well we have the Books of Chronlcles as well as the Books of the Kings. It is a very confusing time in the history of Isreael with many kings coming and going and some were God-fearing and others were evil. There is much to learn about human nature from the history of Israel. God has recorded this history for our learning; even the horrific bits which cannot be denied, but can be understood in the context of God's nature and attributes and the culture of that time.

All the best,

David

[David M]

:talk005:
People die, some show up or are born. They come and go, in the Real World. And strange things happen--just google Robt. Ripley.. The Bible tells it from a real world ! And real truth about real people. But the Bible only gives you the details that GOD wants you to have!

John21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written". Amen:yo:

Hello Bob

I reckon that this forum would exceed the capacity of the world if all our post were written on tablets of stone. It is amazing what can be stored in a silicon chip. Still pales compared to the information stored in a single DNA molecule or the capacity of the brain to store information.

Love you recent posts by the way.

All the best,

David

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The Word of God is inerrant, but is it the Bible the Word of God?!

What i'm trying to explain here is that the Bible was not written under the inspiration, as the scriptures are claiming, Paul actually. For me his case is very suspicious!!!

If God wills, i'm going to present more proofs that will put into question the Bible authenticity!

It's not enough just to believe that the Bible is inerrant word of God, and never read it.
I'm very curious what you mean when you say "Word of God." Where is this "Word of God" if not in the Bible? And if the Bible is errant, then how can we trust it when it reports what God said? Therefore, I really don't have a clue what you are referring to when you speak of the "Word of God." But I'd like to know if you'd be so kind as to share! :thumb:

[duxrow]

Hello Bob
I reckon that this forum would exceed the capacity of the world if all our post were written on tablets of stone. It is amazing what can be stored in a silicon chip. Still pales compared to the information stored in a single DNA molecule or the capacity of the brain to store information.
Love you recent posts by the way. All the best,

David
:winking0071:
Thanks, David -- Just trying to keep it interesting. Hope we didn't run off Culi.. ??

The Final Fourteen
53. Salathiel/Shealtiel
54. Zerubbabel Ezra3:2
55. Abiud
56. Eliakim
57. Azor
58. Sadoc
59. Achim
60. Eliud
61. Eleazar
62. Matthan
63. Jacob II
64. Joseph (father)
65. Mary
66. JESUS

Count 'em -- eleven Joseph's in the Bible,
and the Joseph in Egypt was son#11.. !:thumb:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

:anim_32:
Is the Glass half-full, or half-empty? In this case, it's Both. But in arguing whether Cain murdered brother Abel, there's no two ways about it.

1John3:12 "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous". Confirming Genesis--adding detail.

Heb12:16 "Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright". Confirming Genesis--adding detail.

So you're looking for ways and arguments and POV which support 'unbelief' in the Bible, and I'm looking for those that agree. Naturally, we each try to avoid those subjects which don't help our cause, and those cases where our personal understanding or knowledge isn't the greatest (because everyone has a few anomalies in their education). The Law of the Debater, eh? Hopefully, in our case, it's keeping the cobwebs from forming on our numbskulls. Appreciate the banter, Richard, and thanks for this forum. You too, Culi, have at it!:yo:
Hey there Brother Bob! :yo:

Yes, our discussions are very helpful to keep "cobwebs from forming on our numbskulls" and to help clean out the cobwebs that are already there (not in small part from the "few anomalies" in our education, no doubt!). I really appreciate your contributions.

As for the fulness of a glass - it is a tautological truth that any glass half full is also half empty, and vice versa. That which a person chooses to focus on reveals a fact about their own psychological temperament, not a fact about the glass. This exemplifies how multiple contradictory subjective states of mind can cohere with a single objective reality. Perhaps there is some insight hidden here.

I do not agree that I am "looking for ways and arguments and POV which support 'unbelief' in the Bible." On the contrary, I am looking for the objective truth of the matter. I freely admit any evidence that supports the Bible. Can you freely admit the evidence that contradicts your beliefs? I hope so ... that's the only path to truth.

It is interesting that you think a quote from Genesis is "confirmation." How does that work? All it means to me is that someone quoted Genesis. I can quote Genesis, does that confirm anything? The book of Enoch quotes from Genesis ... and we all know what some folks think about that! :rolleyes: Your hidden assumption is that the NT is authoritative, so when it quotes the OT it "confirms" it. But if you begin with the assumption that the Bible is authoritative, then you don't need any confirmation of anything because you began by assuming it was all true. It is often very difficult to get Christians to see that their fundamental beliefs are based upon circular reasoning - closed logical loops that don't connect with objectively verifiable reality. Circular reasoning is a logical fallacy so when Christians use it any rational skeptic is fully justified in rejecting what they say. Maybe we should form a coalition of rational Skeptics and Christians for the abolition of circular logic.

Great chatting, my friend,

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

We must understand that the Bible have been copied through many hundreds scribes and several hundred times and as a result mistakes are bound to occur. Therefore it is human mistakes and if it is human mistakes then humans should fixed it. Don't expect God to cross every t and dot every i. Besides scribal mistakes, we should also be aware that there could be deliberate or unintentional changes and misinterpretations of the scribes. This may also be caused by the different languages that these scribes have to translate and even add their own cultures and mythologies so as to give better understandings to their contemporary readers. As a result, there will be mistakes in the Bible and these mistakes are all minor and unimportant,...Azariah or Uzziah so what? Matthew missed 3 generations so what? What is important is the the main gist that will lead us to heaven is not corrupted such as the ten Commandments and the two main commandments of Jesus i.e. to love God with all your heart, soul and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself. As long as Jesus mentioned the OT scriptures, these are considered as uncorrupted scriptures.

The Bible is written purposefully and symbolically in many areas and accidentally with human errors. It is for human to figure out the symbolic meanings and fix the human errors so that a deeeeeper understanding of the Bible will ensue. Such deeper understandings will lead to the truth and a better insight of what is the purpose of our existence and God's plans. The more we know and understand about God, the more we will appreciates what he was doing and the more we can withstand the temptations of the evil one.

Such human errors and alterations not only occurs in the Bible also occurs in other religious books such as the Koran, Sutras etc. as well.

May God Bless us. :pray:

Hey there Cheow Wee,

Your post is very well written, and I am glad you admit that the Bible is not the inerrant and infallible Word of God. You have answered the title question of this thread in the negative. We cannot "believe the Bible completely." That is very helpful. I agree with you. :thumb:

But there seems to be some logical flaws. You asserted that "As long as Jesus mentioned the OT scriptures, these are considered as uncorrupted scriptures." That seems illogical because if there was "deliberate or unintentional changes and misinterpretations" of any passages, then the same could be said of the quotes from Jesus. Or are you saying that God supernaturally protected only those passages and not the others? What basis would you have for that assumption? And if it were true, why didn't God "supernaturally protect" the whole Bible from corruption?

Also, I don't see any support for your assertion that the "mistakes are all minor and unimportant." The problem is that as soon as you admit any mistakes, the entire text becomes suspect. We are FORCED to evaluate each and every verse, to try to determine if it is true or not. We cannot merely assuming they are all true; there is no justification for that. And so the Bible becomes just like any other book written by humans and so it has lost all "authority" as the Word of God.

Perhaps the most confusing statement you made is that "it is human mistakes and if it is human mistakes then humans should fixed it. Don't expect God to cross every t and dot every i." This contains two logical implications that don't make any sense to me. First, if humans were to fix the Bible then it could not be trusted any more than any other human book. Second, it contains an implicit assumption that "parts" of the Bible are from God, and parts from man. How are we supposed to discern which is which? And why would we begin by assuming any of it is from God when in fact the entire Bible appears to be from the hands of fallible men?

I'm glad you mentioned the Scriptures from other cultures like the Koran and the Sutras because this exemplifies the real problem. Why don't you accept them as the Word of God like the Bible? You admit that all Scriptures have errors, what makes the Bible more authoritative than the others?

Great chatting!

Richard


gave no evidence supporting your assertion that the errors in the Bible are all "all minor and unimportant." And your assertion

[Richard Amiel McGough]

:talk005:
People die, some show up or are born. They come and go, in the Real World. And strange things happen--just google Robt. Ripley.. The Bible tells it from a real world ! And real truth about real people. But the Bible only gives you the details that GOD wants you to have!

John21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written". Amen:yo:
I understand that's what you believe. The question is if you have any reasons supporting your beliefs, or if you are just a "believer" without reason like Muslims, Mormons, etc.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hello Cheow

I will just say "Amen" to what you have written. A few errors and discrepancies do not alter the basic truth of God's word. Just as well we have two or more verses that corroborate doctrines and are witnesses to the truth. I would worry if we did not have more than one verse by which to judge. Knowing there are errors and discrepancies keeps us on our toes; it does not help us if complacency sets in.

These genealogies were discussed in another thread recently and as I remember, the missing three generations were coincident with the captivity of Judah in Babylon. Why is Jehoiakim missing from the list? I will have to keep looking for a reason for that one. I would be very worried if the lists had many differing names that could not be reconciled. It is as well we have the Books of Chronlcles as well as the Books of the Kings. It is a very confusing time in the history of Isreael with many kings coming and going and some were God-fearing and others were evil. There is much to learn about human nature from the history of Israel. God has recorded this history for our learning; even the horrific bits which cannot be denied, but can be understood in the context of God's nature and attributes and the culture of that time.

All the best,

David
Hi David,

Does this mean that you have answered the title question in the negative? It sounds like you have admitted that we cannot "believe the Bible completely."

Richard

[culi26]

As long as Jesus mentioned the OT scriptures, these are considered as uncorrupted scriptures.

Uncorrupted?? Think twice about this!!


The Bible is written purposefully and symbolically in many areas and accidentally with human errors. It is for human to figure out the symbolic meanings and fix the human errors so that a deeeeeper understanding of the Bible will ensue. Such deeper understandings will lead to the truth and a better insight of what is the purpose of our existence and God's plans. The more we know and understand about God, the more we will appreciates what he was doing and the more we can withstand the temptations of the evil one.

HUMAN ERRORS?! How is it possible that people under the inspiration made all this mistakes?!


Such human errors and alterations not only occurs in the Bible also occurs in other religious books such as the Koran, Sutras etc. as well.

Name some of them !



May God Bless us. :pray:[/QUOTE]

[culi26]

I'm very curious what you mean when you say "Word of God." Where is this "Word of God" if not in the Bible? And if the Bible is errant, then how can we trust it when it reports what God said? Therefore, I really don't have a clue what you are referring to when you speak of the "Word of God." But I'd like to know if you'd be so kind as to share! :thumb:

The Quran


culi26

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The Quran


culi26
I find it curious that you could think that the Quran is without error. It contains a lot of material that is very similar, if not identical, to what we find in the Bible. And the Quran states that Allah gave the Torah to Israel and the Gospels to Jesus. So you must believe that those books have been corrupted. But the evidence does not support that conclusion.

It seems logically inconsistent to believe that Allah gave three revelations - the Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran - and then let the first two be totally corrupted but kept the Quran absolutely pure. That makes no sense to me at all. And besides, it is pure assertion that directly contradicts the historical facts concerning those books.

And there is a much bigger problem with the idea that the Quran is the perfect word of God. When I read it, I can see that it has many confused and false ideas in it. For example:


[*=1]O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. [Surah 4:171]
[*=1]They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! [Surah 5:72-73]
[*=1]And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [Surah 5:116]

There are a number of problems in these verses. First, the doctrine of the Trinity explicitly states that God is one. It never says that God is "one of three." That is a fundamental misunderstanding of the doctrine. It doesn't matter if the Trinity is true or not. The problem remains. The Quran contains an erroneous understanding of the doctrine. And this error is repeated a lot, as when Allah said "Say not 'Trinity' ... for Allah is one Allah." Therefore, the Quran cannot be the perfect Word of God.

And there is another big problem. Christians have never taught that the Trinity consists of God, Jesus, and Mary. So what is Surah 5:72-73 and Surah 5:116 talking about? It seems very clear that they are saying that the Trinity consists of God, Jesus, and Mary. This is because Allah says "They had both to eat their (daily) food" to show that they, Jesus and Mary, do not form a Trinity with Allah.

And there are many other problems in the Quran. When I read it, I get the impression it is a jumbled mish-mash of poorly understood Bible stories, so it inherits all the problems of the Bible and then adds confusion on top of them all.

I'm really glad you are here to discuss these things.

Salam aleikum.

Richard

[CWH]

[QUOTE=culi26;46426]Uncorrupted?? Think twice about this!!
Jesus received His teachings and thoughts directly from God the Father and the Holy Spirit and therefore when He referenced to the OT passages, such passages are considered as uncorrupted and authentic. He even revealed many things and errors in the passages that we did not even know such as the letter of divorce from Moses which originally this was not so, the error about marriages in heaven for angels do not marry etc.


HUMAN ERRORS?! How is it possible that people under the inspiration made all this mistakes?!
How is it possible that every scribe by the hundreds who copied the scriptures were inspired? There were obviously also people with evil intent or without who deliberately altered some of the passages in the Bible.


Name some of them !
RAM have already done so, thanks to him. :). I would like to add that there are about 150 Islamic sects currently today and that speaks of the division and disagreements in the interpretations and concepts of the Koran. This goes the same with Christianity, Buddhism etc.

May God Bless us. :pray:

[CWH]

[QUOTE=Richard Amiel McGough;46411]Hey there Cheow Wee,

Your post is very well written, and I am glad you admit that the Bible is not the inerrant and infallible Word of God. You have answered the title question of this thread in the negative. We cannot "believe the Bible completely." That is very helpful. I agree with you. :thumb:
Thanks for your positive comment although it comes with a bit of sarcastism. Let me clarify, I have never said that the Bible is without errors but even that it is still the inerrant and infallible Word of God as the main and important gists are not corrupted such as the Ten commandments etc.


But there seems to be some logical flaws. You asserted that "As long as Jesus mentioned the OT scriptures, these are considered as uncorrupted scriptures." That seems illogical because if there was "deliberate or unintentional changes and misinterpretations" of any passages, then the same could be said of the quotes from Jesus. Or are you saying that God supernaturally protected only those passages and not the others? What basis would you have for that assumption? And if it were true, why didn't God "supernaturally protect" the whole Bible from corruption?
Jesus obtained His teachings and inspirations from God the Father and the Holy Spirits and as such when He referenced to the OT passages, such passages are considered as uncorrupted and authentic. He even reveal several passages and knowledge in which we did not know such as giving the letter of divorce which was originally not so, the marriages in heaven for angels do not marry etc.
Through the ages till today, there will be alterations made by human scribes and also misinterpretations by humans, are you saying that God should made every editions for the alterations and mistakes? Are that done in other religious bookssuch as the Koran and Sutras as well? No. If someone made a mistake, is it fair that we are supposed to rectify it on his behalf? Do you want to tell your students every answers or would you rather that you let your students be diligent to do some research on their own so that they will learn better and gain further insights into the subjects taught?


Also, I don't see any support for your assertion that the "mistakes are all minor and unimportant." The problem is that as soon as you admit any mistakes, the entire text becomes suspect. We are FORCED to evaluate each and every verse, to try to determine if it is true or not. We cannot merely assuming they are all true; there is no justification for that. And so the Bible becomes just like any other book written by humans and so it has lost all "authority" as the Word of God.
The words of God are there for you to believe but there are important words of God that if you believe will lead you to the gates of heaven such as to Love God with all your heart, soul and might and to Love your neighbor as yourself, there rest are immaterial but good to know which will provide knowledge of how to achieve these two commandments. You are expected to dive deeply into the meanings and understand what was taught if you really love God with all your heart, soul and might and to love your neighbor as yourself. If you sincerely love someone, you would do everything to know and understand that person isn't it?


Perhaps the most confusing statement you made is that "it is human mistakes and if it is human mistakes then humans should fixed it. Don't expect God to cross every t and dot every i." This contains two logical implications that don't make any sense to me. First, if humans were to fix the Bible then it could not be trusted any more than any other human book. Second, it contains an implicit assumption that "parts" of the Bible are from God, and parts from man. How are we supposed to discern which is which? And why would we begin by assuming any of it is from God when in fact the entire Bible appears to be from the hands of fallible men?
If an author made some mistakes in his book, he is responsible to make an edition for the amendments. But if the mistake is deliberately or unintentionally made by the publishers or the readers, who should be responsible to make the amendments to the book? Who is held responsible if the readers make their own interpretations and misinterpret or abuse the intent of your book? How could the author ensure that future generations, thousands of years later will not misprint, misinterpret or abuse the intent of your book?....continue to edict and make amendments for thousands of years to come? It all depends on how the readers study diligently and understand clearly the intent of your book with no evil intention to distort or abuse it.


I'm glad you mentioned the Scriptures from other cultures like the Koran and the Sutras because this exemplifies the real problem. Why don't you accept them as the Word of God like the Bible? You admit that all Scriptures have errors, what makes the Bible more authoritative than the others?
It doesn't matter which religion you believe for they taught the main gists (such as to do good and not evil etc.) which will lead you to the gates of heaven which is to Love God with all your heart, soul and might and to Love your neighbor as yourself. The rest are rather immaterial which provides knowledge and instructions of how we can do these two commandments. We are not supposed to judge other people for Grace belongs to God and there can only be one Creator God. Do not judge or You will be judged. We are judged according to what good we have done in our lives...Revelation 20. Religions and Religious books are like different theories and instruction manuals, each with their own set of rules and concepts but ultimately it will lead to one true conclusion.

May God not judge us.:pray:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Thanks for your positive comment although it comes with a bit of sarcastism.
Hey there Cheow,

Given some of our past conversations, I can understand why you would be sensitive to sarcasm but I can assure you quite sincerely that none was intended.



Let me clarify, I have never said that the Bible is without errors but even that it is still the inerrant and infallible Word of God as the main and important gists are not corrupted such as the Ten commandments etc.

I think you will need to refine your statement a bit. It is a direct contradiction to assert that the Bible contains errors and is inerrant and infallible. As it stands, you statement is logically incoherent and therefore literally meaningless.

And I don't understand why you think the Ten Commandments are important. They were given to Israel and no one else. That's the whole point of the 4th Commandment. It was given as a sign of the unique relationship between God and Israel:
Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Note also that violation of the 4th Commandment incured the death penality. That is not a good thing. This is why Paul said that law could not give life, and why it had to be abolished.

The law was never given to Gentiles:
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

You have never given any reason to think that the Ten Commandments were specially protected from error. Your assertion that some parts of the Bible are erroneous while other parts are inerrant and infallible is logically incoherent.



Jesus obtained His teachings and inspirations from God the Father and the Holy Spirits and as such when He referenced to the OT passages, such passages are considered as uncorrupted and authentic. He even reveal several passages and knowledge in which we did not know such as giving the letter of divorce which was originally not so, the marriages in heaven for angels do not marry etc.

How do you know that "Jesus obtained His teachings and inspirations from God the Father and the Holy Spirit"? You don't. You think you know that only because the Bible tells you so. But you admit the Bible contains some errors, so you don't know if that teaching is also erroneous or not.



Through the ages till today, there will be alterations made by human scribes and also misinterpretations by humans, are you saying that God should made every editions for the alterations and mistakes? Are that done in other religious bookssuch as the Koran and Sutras as well? No. If someone made a mistake, is it fair that we are supposed to rectify it on his behalf? Do you want to tell your students every answers or would you rather that you let your students be diligent to do some research on their own so that they will learn better and gain further insights into the subjects taught?

If someone wants to assert that the Bible is inerrant, then the Bible must be without error. So yes, God would have to protect the Bible from error, or it will contain error. And if it contains error, then it is not inerrant. Do I really need to explain something this obvious to you?

And yes, it would have to be done for the Koran if the Koran were inerrant. Don't you understand simple logic? If something contains errors, it is not inerrant. If something is inerrant, it does not contain errors.

Your analogy to students doing their own research is absurd in this context. We are talking about whether or not the Bible contains errors.



The words of God are there for you to believe but there are important words of God that if you believe will lead you to the gates of heaven such as to Love God with all your heart, soul and might and to Love your neighbor as yourself, there rest are immaterial but good to know which will provide knowledge of how to achieve these two commandments. You are expected to dive deeply into the meanings and understand what was taught if you really love God with all your heart, soul and might and to love your neighbor as yourself. If you sincerely love someone, you would do everything to know and understand that person isn't it?

Atheists, Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, and everyone has love. Therefore there is no need for God or the Bible. Those ideas generate more hate than love anyway.



If an author made some mistakes in his book, he is responsible to make an edition for the amendments. But if the mistake is deliberately or unintentionally made by the publishers or the readers, who should be responsible to make the amendments to the book? Who is held responsible if the readers make their own interpretations and misinterpret or abuse the intent of your book? How could the author ensure that future generations, thousands of years later will not misprint, misinterpret or abuse the intent of your book?....continue to edict and make amendments for thousands of years to come? It all depends on how the readers study diligently and understand clearly the intent of your book with no evil intention to distort or abuse it.

If the Bible is full of errors it can't be "fixed" by fallible people. It is supposed to be "God's Word." Who has the authority to "fix" it? Your suggestions simply make no sense at all to me.



It doesn't matter which religion you believe for they taught the main gists (such as to do good and not evil etc.) which will lead you to the gates of heaven which is to Love God with all your heart, soul and might and to Love your neighbor as yourself.

Excellent. We agree. It doesn't matter which religion you believe. It doesn't matter if you reject all religion. It's all the same. Thank you.

:thumb:

:signthankspin:

[culi26]

and then let the first two be totally corrupted but kept the Quran absolutely pure. That makes no sense to me at all.

From the Quran we know that the Torah and the Gospel were revelation sent down only for the Sons of Israil, so it was not neccesary to preserve these Books (to protect those Books from corruption), because the God with His Wisdom will send later a law (the Quran) for all mankind.

But, if you say that the Bible was meant for menkind:

Mark 16:15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world (THE NATIONS) and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.

I will ask you: "What meant Jesus with this?!

Matthew 15: 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Or maybe he changed his mind?!

Before was translated as "Go into ALL THE NATIONS, but now they translate as go into all the world!
And it's not the same! Why?!

Because, ALL THE NATIONS means 12 tribes of Israel.

Isaiah 43: 9 ALL THE NATIONS gather together, and the peoples assemble.

And, when you read the chapter 43 in the book of Isaiah, you will know for sure that ALL THE NATIONS are only, i repeat only The 12 tribes of Israil.


But, What says Allah in the Quran:

[Al-Quran 2:174-175] Indeed, they who CONCEAL what Allah has sent down of the Book and EXCHANGE it for a small price - those consume not into their bellies except the Fire. And Allah will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them. And they will have a painful punishment.
Those are the ones who have exchanged guidance for error and forgiveness for punishment. How patient they are in pursuit of the Fire!

God gave the Torah to Moses(pbuh) and the Gospel to Jesus(pbuh), but the Bible is much more than the Torah and the Gospel. But,the people also changed a lot of verses from the Torah and the Gospel.

How can this be proved?

Why God did not preserved these two Holy Books in original form, if they were meant for whole the Earth??!!




[*=1]O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. [Surah 4:171]
[*=1]They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! [Surah 5:72-73]
[*=1]And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [Surah 5:116]

There are a number of problems in these verses. First, the doctrine of the Trinity explicitly states that God is one. It never says that God is "one of three." That is a fundamental misunderstanding of the doctrine. It doesn't matter if the Trinity is true or not. The problem remains. The Quran contains an erroneous understanding of the doctrine. And this error is repeated a lot, as when Allah said "Say not 'Trinity' ... for Allah is one Allah." Therefore, the Quran cannot be the perfect Word of God.

And there is another big problem. Christians have never taught that the Trinity consists of God, Jesus, and Mary. So what is Surah 5:72-73 and Surah 5:116 talking about? It seems very clear that they are saying that the Trinity consists of God, Jesus, and Mary. This is because Allah says "They had both to eat their (daily) food" to show that they, Jesus and Mary, do not form a Trinity with Allah.

Say not "Trinity"[/B] : desist: it will be better for you:for Allah is one Allah..

How can somebody explain that there is Only One God, and in the same time we must believe the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?!

Isaiah 43:10-11 10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant (JESUS-according to christians) whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me understand that I AM he.
Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior.

Matthew 22:37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind!

Jesus (pbuh) said for himself OR FOR JEHOVAH?!



Christians have never taught that the Trinity consists of God, Jesus, and Mary- that is the true! But, why All-llah says in the Quran:

...Allah will say:"O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, [B]worship me and my mother as gods!

As you can see, it's not about TRINITY!!! The word is for the worship!!

Is there anyone of you who worships the Holy Spirit??!! Noooooooo??!!

But, why the people bow before the statue of Jesus and Mary?? Is this not the act of worship??!!

I think i will post a topic about this!

Peace to you, Richard

culi26

[David M]

Hi David,

Does this mean that you have answered the title question in the negative? It sounds like you have admitted that we cannot "believe the Bible completely."

Richard

Thank you Richard for alerting me to the misunderstanding that might arise from what I wrote and enabling me to correct that and letting me restate belief..

After correcting the man-made errors in the translation and transcription of God's inspired word (as originally written down by the inspired authors), we can believe those original scriptures which go to make up the Bible.

I trust this makes my position on this matter more clear.


David

[culi26]

[QUOTE]
Jesus received His teachings and thoughts directly from God the Father and the Holy Spirit and therefore when He referenced to the OT passages, such passages are considered as uncorrupted and authentic. He even revealed many things and errors in the passages that we did not even know such as the letter of divorce from Moses which originally this was not so, the error about marriages in heaven for angels do not marry etc.

Oh, really? Did Jesus received His Teachings DIRECTLY from God, the Father?!

How is it possible that there was also a god in heaven, while in the Bible is written that:

1Timothy 3:16 ....God was manifest in the flesh....

John 1:1 ....And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us....

How is possible that one God in heaven(The Father) sent his teachings to another god in the earth (The Son),



[QUOTE]How is it possible that every scribe by the hundreds who copied the scriptures were inspired? There were obviously also people with evil intent or without who deliberately altered some of the passages in the Bible.

Are you accepting that there is something from humans in the Bible??!!



[QUOTE] RAM have already done so, thanks to him. :). I would like to add that there are about 150 Islamic sects currently today and that speaks of the division and disagreements in the interpretations and concepts of the Koran. This goes the same with Christianity, Buddhism etc.

Is this a justification for the Bible?!

Peace

[CWH]

[QUOTE=culi26;46449][QUOTE=CWH;46438]

Oh, really? Did Jesus received His Teachings DIRECTLY from God, the Father?!
Then tell me where did Jesus got His Teachings from? He had no formal religious education.


How is it possible that there was also a god in heaven, while in the Bible is written that:

1Timothy 3:16 ....God was manifest in the flesh....

John 1:1 ....And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us....

How is possible that one God in heaven(The Father) sent his teachings to another god in the earth (The Son),

Why not? God the Father taught His Son. I don't believe in the 3 in 1 trinity. Trinity is just three Divine entities working together for the same goal.




[QUOTE]Are you accepting that there is something from humans in the Bible??!!
What I am saying that there are errors made by men in the Bible same as in other religions.





[QUOTE]Is this a justification for the Bible?!
Are you saying there are no errors or misinterpretations in other religious books. If so, then you are biased.

God Blessed.:pray:

[CWH]

[QUOTE=Richard Amiel McGough;46444]Hey there Cheow,

Given some of our past conversations, I can understand why you would be sensitive to sarcasm but I can assure you quite sincerely that none was intended.


I think you will need to refine your statement a bit. It is a direct contradiction to assert that the Bible contains errors and is inerrant and infallible. As it stands, you statement is logically incoherent and therefore literally meaningless.
What I am saying is that the Bible is largely inerrant and infallible but not 100%. Paul said that the Bible can be used for instructions etc. Would Paul said that if the Bible is not inerrant and infallible?


And I don't understand why you think the Ten Commandments are important. They were given to Israel and no one else. That's the whole point of the 4th Commandment. It was given as a sign of the unique relationship between God and Israel:
Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Note also that violation of the 4th Commandment incured the death penality. That is not a good thing. This is why Paul said that law could not give life, and why it had to be abolished.

The law was never given to Gentiles:
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

You have never given any reason to think that the Ten Commandments were specially protected from error. Your assertion that some parts of the Bible are erroneous while other parts are inerrant and infallible is logically incoherent.
Jesus said that the ten commandments can be summarized into 2 main commandments i.e. Love God with all your heart, soul and might and Love your neighbor as yourself. Are you saying that these ten commandments are not related to the two commandments of Jesus? And doesn't affect us today? And Jesus did say that not one iota will be removed from the ten commandments.
Matthew 5:18
English Standard Version (ESV)
18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
When we say the Bible is infallible and inerrant we do not mean 100%. Can you name me one book that is 100% inerrant and infallible?

How do you know that "Jesus obtained His teachings and inspirations from God the Father and the Holy Spirit"? You don't. You think you know that only because the Bible tells you so. But you admit the Bible contains some errors, so you don't know if that teaching is also erroneous or not.


If someone wants to assert that the Bible is inerrant, then the Bible must be without error. So yes, God would have to protect the Bible from error, or it will contain error. And if it contains error, then it is not inerrant. Do I really need to explain something this obvious to you?


And yes, it would have to be done for the Koran if the Koran were inerrant. Don't you understand simple logic? If something contains errors, it is not inerrant. If something is inerrant, it does not contain errors.
Are you also saying that Science book must be inerrant as well? Which Science book is 100% inerrant?...there will be changes in theories and concepts and additional knowledge etc. And if it not 100% inerrant then based on your opinion it cannot be used for teaching right?


Your analogy to students doing their own research is absurd in this context. We are talking about whether or not the Bible contains errors.
It is not absurd, errors in research are the driving force that make people look for the true answers. If there are no errors will people be motivated to make corrections? A good example is the Phlogiston theory which was accepted for 300 years was eventually rejected when the better combustion theory was put forward.



Atheists, Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, and everyone has love. Therefore there is no need for God or the Bible. Those ideas generate more hate than love anyway.
God is the creator of everything including Love. God is love and without God there is no love. I have put up the analogy that to Love God and to love one's neighbor is analogous to loving the USA and loving Americans; both must go together.



If the Bible is full of errors it can't be "fixed" by fallible people. It is supposed to be "God's Word." Who has the authority to "fix" it? Your suggestions simply make no sense at all to me.
Precisely, which is why the errors remain. The errors are immaterial and need not be fixed. The gists which I have stated of the Bible remains which is the most important.



Excellent. We agree. It doesn't matter which religion you believe. It doesn't matter if you reject all religion. It's all the same. Thank you.
Without religion is like without the laws that governs the country. All religion teach us what is right and what is wrong and to do good and avoid evil. It also teaches what you can do to reach the gates of heaven and that you will judged for what you have done in your life.

May God Bless us. :pray:

[culi26]

Then tell me where did Jesus got His Teachings from? He had no formal religious education.

Are you accepting that Muhammad was also the prophet??!!



Why not? God the Father taught His Son. I don't believe in the 3 in 1 trinity. Trinity is just three Divine entities working together for the same goal.

Are you aware that "Working TOGETHER for the same goal" is the plural form??!!

Isaiah 43:10 .....Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.



Are you saying there are no errors or misinterpretations in other religious books. If so, then you are biased.

I repeat again, this does not justify the Bible!!

Or maybe you are accepting other religious books as the Wword of God????????!!!

Peace

[CWH]

[QUOTE=culi26;46460]Are you accepting that Muhammad was also the prophet??!!
So where did Muhammad got his learning of Islam from? If from God, so was Jesus.


Are you aware that "Working TOGETHER for the same goal" is the plural form??!!

Isaiah 43:10 .....Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
When God created the world, it is also in the plural form...Let US make man after OUR image...Genesis 1:26


I repeat again, this does not justify the Bible!!

Or maybe you are accepting other religious books as the Wword of God????????!!!
And I repeat again, the main gists of the teachings in the religious books are the same.... Do good not evil...heaven and hell...spirits etc.

God Bless.:pray:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

It seems logically inconsistent to believe that Allah gave three revelations - the Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran - and then let the first two be totally corrupted but kept the Quran absolutely pure. That makes no sense to me at all. And besides, it is pure assertion that directly contradicts the historical facts concerning those books.
From the Quran we know that the Torah and the Gospel were revelation sent down only for the Sons of Israil, so it was not neccesary to preserve these Books (to protect those Books from corruption), because the God with His Wisdom will send later a law (the Quran) for all mankind.

Good morning culi26, :tea:

I'm really glad you are taking the time to share you understanding. Thanks! :thumb:

I agree that the Torah was "sent down only for the Sons of Israel" in the sense of being their "law book." But that was not its only purpose. The Torah was part of the entire body of OT Scripture that was given as a foundation for the Gospels and the other NT books which were written to proclaim Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. It is absolutely impossible to assert that the Gospels were anything but a proclamation of the identity of Jesus as the Messiah and the Son of God:


Matthew 16:15 He [Jesus] said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.
John 20:30-31 30 ¶ And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

It is impossible to assert that these are "corruptions" of the text. They are the central core of the entire message of the Gospels. Therefore, when the Quran states that Allah gave the Gospel, it implies that Allah has declared that Jesus is the Son of God. I don't see how anyone could deny this simple fact.



But, if you say that the Bible was meant for menkind:

Mark 16:15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world (THE NATIONS) and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.

I will ask you: "What meant Jesus with this?!

Matthew 15: 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Or maybe he changed his mind?!

Before was translated as "Go into ALL THE NATIONS, but now they translate as go into all the world!
And it's not the same! Why?!

Because, ALL THE NATIONS means 12 tribes of Israel.

Isaiah 43: 9 ALL THE NATIONS gather together, and the peoples assemble.

And, when you read the chapter 43 in the book of Isaiah, you will know for sure that ALL THE NATIONS are only, i repeat only The 12 tribes of Israil.

The phrase of "all the nations" could mean "all the nations of Israel" if it were written that way or if context demanded it. But it can't always have that meaning because there are many verses where Israel is contrasted with "all the nations. For example, we know that "all the nations" does not refer to the 12 tribes when they asked God to give them a king:
1 Samuel 8:20 That we [Israel] also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.

Who did they want to be "like"? ALL THE NATIONS. Therefore, the phrase "all the nations" cannot refer to Israel. This is confirmed in the Torah:
Deuteronomy 17:14 "When you [Israel] enter the land which the LORD your God gives you, and you possess it and live in it, and you say, 'I will set a king over me like all the nations who are around me,' 15 you shall surely set a king over you whom the LORD your God chooses, one from among your countrymen you shall set as king over yourselves; you may not put a foreigner over yourselves who is not your countryman.

Here we clearly see that "all the nations" is contrasted with Israel. The phrase cannot refer to the 12 tribes. Indeed, the phrase "all the nations" was used even before Israel existed, so it cannot be a reference to the 12 tribes:
Genesis 26:4 "And I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

And again the Torah contrasts Israel with "all the nations" when it speaks of God gathering them back to their land:
Deuteronomy 30:3 "that the LORD your God will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you.

I could of course continue with many more examples. I hope you can see that your argument directly contradicts the meaning of the phrase "all the nations." I can't imagine why you would assert such an argument. You will never succeed in demonstrating your case if you use arguments that are so obviously fallacious and easily refuted.

This is why Christ sometimes said "all the nations" and other times "all the world" - he was referring to the same thing! All the nations = All nations of the world = all the world.

As for Matthew 15:24, that is easy to answer. Christ was talking about his mission to Israel before his death and resurrection. Just read the context and you will see this is true. It was after his resurrection that God gave the revelation that the Gospel was to go to the entire world. Again, you are picking at minor points. You can't win your case this way. You need to focus on the main issues about what the Bible really teaches, and show the errors. You will never succeed by nit-picking over words.



But, What says Allah in the Quran:

[Al-Quran 2:174-175] Indeed, they who CONCEAL what Allah has sent down of the Book and EXCHANGE it for a small price - those consume not into their bellies except the Fire. And Allah will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them. And they will have a painful punishment.
Those are the ones who have exchanged guidance for error and forgiveness for punishment. How patient they are in pursuit of the Fire!

God gave the Torah to Moses(pbuh) and the Gospel to Jesus(pbuh), but the Bible is much more than the Torah and the Gospel. But,the people also changed a lot of verses from the Torah and the Gospel.

How can this be proved?

Why God did not preserved these two Holy Books in original form, if they were meant for whole the Earth??!!

You have not given any evidence that the central messages of the Torah and the Gospel have been changed. Until you do that, your argument will not stand.

And still, it makes no sense at all to say that Allah gave a perfect revelation in the Torah and the Gospel and then let them be corrupted. And there is a much bigger problem that you need to address. The Quran is the book that looks confused when compared to the Torah and the Gospel. It says many self-contradictory things, and Allah himself says that he changes some of the verses!


Surah 2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We [Allah] substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
Surah 16:101 When We [Allah] substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals,- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

How is it possible for Allah to say one thing and then "substitute" something else and cause the first thing to be forgotten? Didn't he know that this would make Muhammad look like a "forger" just like he said? Why should anyone believe anything in the Quran? That's the real question we should focus on:

Why should anyone believe anything in the Quran? Please give me the best reasons. I really want to know.



Say not "Trinity"[/B] : desist: it will be better for you:for Allah is one Allah..

How can somebody explain that there is Only One God, and in the same time we must believe the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?!

It's not something that Christians think can be "explained." They understand it as a necessary implication of the Bible because the Bible presents Christ as both Man and God. It appears that the Quran is ignorant of this fact, and that's one of the many reasons the Quran cannot be the Word of God.



Isaiah 43:10-11 10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant (JESUS-according to christians) whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me understand that I AM he.
Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior.

That passage from Isaiah 43 does not deny the doctrine of Trinity - on the contrary, it supports the first premise of that doctrine which says that there is only one God. If you don't understand this then you don't know anything about the doctrine of the Trinity, and so will be unqualified to comment on it until you educate yourself about what the doctrine actually teaches.



Matthew 22:37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind!

Jesus (pbuh) said for himself OR FOR JEHOVAH?!

As you can see, it's not about TRINITY!!! The word is for the worship!!

Is there anyone of you who worships the Holy Spirit??!! Noooooooo??!!

But, why the people bow before the statue of Jesus and Mary?? Is this not the act of worship??!!

I think i will post a topic about this!

Peace to you, Richard

culi26
The Catholic practice of bowing before statues is not generally accepted in Christianity. And it's totally irrelevant to the questions at hand. It would be a lot more interesting (and fruitful) if you would try to focus on the real issues that will determine the truth.

Much peace to you,

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

What I am saying is that the Bible is largely inerrant and infallible but not 100%. Paul said that the Bible can be used for instructions etc. Would Paul said that if the Bible is not inerrant and infallible?

Hey there my friend, :tea:

You will need to be more careful with your language. You cannot say that something is "largely inerrant and infallible." That phrase is logically incoherent because "inerrant" means that there is no error at all. It is a self-contradiction to say that something does and does not have error. It must be one or the other.

But I understand the intent of your comment. You think the Bible basically trustworthy even though it contains some error. That is exactly the view I held for all the years I was a Christian. I could not deny that it contained error, because that is an absolute fact. But I thought that the Bible was very trustworthy in general, and that the errors were not sufficient to cause any real problem. I thought the Bible was clear enough to accomplish the purpose God intended for it.



Jesus said that the ten commandments can be summarized into 2 main commandments i.e. Love God with all your heart, soul and might and Love your neighbor as yourself. Are you saying that these ten commandments are not related to the two commandments of Jesus? And doesn't affect us today? And Jesus did say that not one iota will be removed from the ten commandments.
Matthew 5:18
English Standard Version (ESV)
18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Your comment is not accurate. Here is what Jesus actually said:
Matthew 22:35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37 And He said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

He said nothing about the Ten Commandments per se. He said that the "the whole Law and the Prophets" depend upon the two commandments to love God and others. The phrase "the whole Law and the Prophets" refers to the entire body of Scriptures that existed at that time. And this reveals why your argument is self-contradictory. You said:
CWH: "Jesus received His teachings and thoughts directly from God the Father and the Holy Spirit and therefore when He referenced to the OT passages, such passages are considered as uncorrupted and authentic."

But now you have quoted Jesus as endorsing the entire body of OT Scripture. Therefore, you are saying that the entire OT has no errors. But you also have said it does contain errors. Therefore, you comments are logically incoherent and so necessarily false.



When we say the Bible is infallible and inerrant we do not mean 100%. Can you name me one book that is 100% inerrant and infallible?

The word "inerrant" means 100% free of error. The phrase "100% inerrant" is needlessly redundant. It means exactly the same things as "inerrant".

And no, I cannot name any book that is inerrant, especially the Bible.



Are you also saying that Science book must be inerrant as well? Which Science book is 100% inerrant?...there will be changes in theories and concepts and additional knowledge etc. And if it not 100% inerrant then based on your opinion it cannot be used for teaching right?

No, that's not right at all. I have never said that only inerrant books could be used for teaching. That would be crazy since there are no infallible books.




Your analogy to students doing their own research is absurd in this context. We are talking about whether or not the Bible contains errors.
It is not absurd, errors in research are the driving force that make people look for the true answers. If there are no errors will people be motivated to make corrections? A good example is the Phlogiston theory which was accepted for 300 years was eventually rejected when the better combustion theory was put forward.

Good point. I agree that it is very good to research things, and that is a good argument for why God allowed the Bible to be so confused and full of errors. It makes sense that God would want us to "practice" to have our "senses trained to discern good and evil":

Hebrews 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

But this does not answer the point I was making. I still think it is absurd to assert that we are supposed to "fix" the problems in the Bible because that would mean that the Bible itself is not trustworthy and is not authoritative. It would mean that we don't have the "Word of God" at all, but rather only the conclusions of our own reasoning. And you know how that goes. No one ever agrees, every man has his own opinion. That's why I said your suggestion was "absurd in this context."




Atheists, Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, and everyone has love. Therefore there is no need for God or the Bible. Those ideas generate more hate than love anyway.
God is the creator of everything including Love. God is love and without God there is no love. I have put up the analogy that to Love God and to love one's neighbor is analogous to loving the USA and loving Americans; both must go together.

Yes, you believe that God is the creator of everything. But that's just your opinion. But I see no reason to agree with you, and as far as I can tell, you have not given any.




If the Bible is full of errors it can't be "fixed" by fallible people. It is supposed to be "God's Word." Who has the authority to "fix" it? Your suggestions simply make no sense at all to me.
Precisely, which is why the errors remain. The errors are immaterial and need not be fixed. The gists which I have stated of the Bible remains which is the most important.

You are contradicting yourself again. Earlier you said: "Therefore it is human mistakes and if it is human mistakes then humans should fixed it. Don't expect God to cross every t and dot every i." First you say humans should fix the errors, and you explain why. Then you say that the errors don't need to be fixed.

If the "gists" is all that matters, then nothing matters because what is or is not a "gist" is determined by the opinions of the reader, and every reader has different opinions.




Excellent. We agree. It doesn't matter which religion you believe. It doesn't matter if you reject all religion. It's all the same. Thank you.
Without religion is like without the laws that governs the country. All religion teach us what is right and what is wrong and to do good and avoid evil. It also teaches what you can do to reach the gates of heaven and that you will judged for what you have done in your life.

It is not true that "religion" teaches us what is truly right and wrong. On the contrary, religions saddle humans with false doctrines about morality which cause great damage to the well-being of humanity.

Great chatting my friend!

Richard

[culi26]

Good morning culi26, :tea:

I'm really glad you are taking the time to share you understanding. Thanks! :thumb:

I agree that the Torah was "sent down only for the Sons of Israel" in the sense of being their "law book." But that was not its only purpose. The Torah was part of the entire body of OT Scripture that was given as a foundation for the Gospels and the other NT books which were written to proclaim Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. It is absolutely impossible to assert that the Gospels were anything but a proclamation of the identity of Jesus as the Messiah and the Son of God:

Exodus 4:22 Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

1Chronicles 22:9....For his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quiet to Israel in his days. 10 He shall build a house for my name. He shall be my son, and I will be his father, and I will establish his royal throne in Israel forever.

Identity of Jesus as Messiah-YES, but as the Son of God-NO!!

Luke 1:32........ will be called the Son of the Most High.

Will be called the son of the Most High doesn't necessarily mean that he is Son Of God. Now, explain me this:

John 1:19-21

And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him,

1- "Who are you?” He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.”
2- "And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.”
3- "Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, -“No.”

1- Who is The Christ??!!
2- Who is Elijah??!!
3- Who is The Prophet??!!



[LIST]
Matthew 16:15 He [Jesus] said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

Matthew 6:9 “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name

Isaiah 64:8 But now, O Lord, you are our Father;


Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

Did god had intercourse with Mary or he just made ​​the sperm in her womb???!



As for Matthew 15:24, that is easy to answer. Christ was talking about his mission to Israel before his death and resurrection. Just read the context and you will see this is true. It was after his resurrection that God gave the revelation that the Gospel was to go to the entire world. Again, you are picking at minor points. You can't win your case this way. You need to focus on the main issues about what the Bible really teaches, and show the errors. You will never succeed by nit-picking over words.

29 And he asked them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered him, “You are the Christ.” 30 And he strictly charged them to tell no one about him.

Wasn't his mission that people could understand that he is Christ??!!



You have not given any evidence that the central messages of the Torah and the Gospel have been changed. Until you do that, your argument will not stand.

I don't have to prove that the Bible is changed, problem is that you can't prove that the Bible is the Word of God.
Numerous errors found in the Bible speak for themselves!!


And still, it makes no sense at all to say that Allah gave a perfect revelation in the Torah and the Gospel and then let them be corrupted. And there is a much bigger problem that you need to address. The Quran is the book that looks confused when compared to the Torah and the Gospel. It says many self-contradictory things, and Allah himself says that he changes some of the verses!



Surah 2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but [B]We [Allah] substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
Surah 16:101 When We [Allah] substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals,- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

How is it possible for Allah to say one thing and then "substitute" something else and cause the first thing to be forgotten? Didn't he know that this would make Muhammad look like a "forger" just like he said? Why should anyone believe anything in the Quran? That's the real question we should focus on:

Surah 2:106 speaks about REVELATIONS not about some ayats(verses). God shows that He didn't forget the earlier revelations (which were changed by humans hands) and in this case brought Final revelation(The Quran), and this revelation He will protect it.

Verily, We Ourselves have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We will be its Guardian, (Al-Hijr, 15:10)

Surah 16:101 speaks about ayats, but you must read and you will understand that those few commandments were only temporarily, but meanwhile are applicable even today.

[Al-Quran 4:43] O you who have believed, do not approach prayer while you are intoxicated until you know what you are saying

In the first verse clearly shows that alcohol was not banned at the beginning to the announcement of the Quran, then after a period Allah revealed a verse that made ​​it forbidden.

[Al-Quran 5:91] O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, [sacrificing on] stone alters [to other than Allah ], and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful.

So many non-muslims claim that in the Quran there are abrogated verses, like the first one (4:43) being substituted with another one (which is better than the first one).

But, in the verse 4:43 you can see clearly the WISDOM of Allah. How?!

Even though alcohol is forbidden, there are muslims who drink alcohol sometimes.
What would have to do a Muslim who performs prayers, but he made a mistake and drank a quantity of alcohol??!
We must follow the order in the verse 4:43

[Al-Quran 4:43] O you who have believed, do not approach prayer while you are intoxicated

People may think that the verse 4:43 is abrogated, but it isn't!



Why should anyone believe anything in the Quran? Please give me the best reasons. I really want to know.

If you really want to know you have to do researches why muslim believe in the Quran, but without superstition.



It's not something that Christians think can be "explained." They understand it as a necessary implication of the Bible because the Bible presents Christ as both Man and God. It appears that the Quran is ignorant of this fact, and that's one of the many reasons the Quran cannot be the Word of God.

John 5:26-27 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.



That passage from Isaiah 43 does not deny the doctrine of Trinity - on the contrary, it supports the first premise of that doctrine which says that there is only one God. If you don't understand this then you don't know anything about the doctrine of the Trinity, and so will be unqualified to comment on it until you educate yourself about what the doctrine actually teaches.

I would like to educate myself, so please tell what The DOCTRINE actually teaches.



The Catholic practice of bowing before statues is not generally accepted in Christianity. And it's totally irrelevant to the questions at hand. It would be a lot more interesting (and fruitful) if you would try to focus on the real issues that will determine the truth.

If is not generally accepted in Christianity, why I see the statue of Mary in the churches, and people bowing down to her?
There are a lot of people who are thinking that they should worship also the Mary, because she is the mother of God, especially here in Belgium, and exactly about these people Allah will ask Jesus:

[Al-Quran 5:116] And when Allah will say, [B]"O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

God is not going to judge what christianity teaches or what islam teaches, but God is to judge human beings because of worshiping something else beside Him!


culi 26