Killing the Canaanites

[duxrow]

:hangman:
The Canaanites died? So what, because dying is like going to sleep; only you don't wake up in the near future, and probably not with the same body. Don't we all enjoy going to sleep? That's when you can forget all your troubles, at least till you awake. But you wouldn't want to wake and discover that you're inside of a strange and perhaps repulsive body; would you? Would you have the same sense as the herd of swine that drowned themselves when the Legion of Devils entered into them? Lk8:33.

1Cor15:40 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body".

2Cor5:2 "For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked".
John11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

Yes, we're all going to be PLANTED like seeds, as Our Husbandman has said, but do you expect to be pleased with your New Name and New Body? Rev2:17 :pray:

[Rose]

:hangman:
The Canaanites died? So what, because dying is like going to sleep; only you don't wake up in the near future, and probably not with the same body. Don't we all enjoy going to sleep? That's when you can forget all your troubles, at least till you awake. But you wouldn't want to wake and discover that you're inside of a strange and perhaps repulsive body; would you? Would you have the same sense as the herd of swine that drowned themselves when the Legion of Devils entered into them? Lk8:33.

1Cor15:40 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body".

2Cor5:2 "For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked".
John11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

Yes, we're all going to be PLANTED like seeds, as Our Husbandman has said, but do you expect to be pleased with your New Name and New Body? Rev2:17 :pray:

Hello Bob,

I'm sorry, but your post makes no sense to me...:confused: The point as I see it is not whether the Canaanites died, because we all die... it's the immoral manner in which god had them killed. Death happens to everyone, whether or not you believe in the biblegod; the problem arises when this biblegod arbitrarily has one group of people killed and allows another group to live merely because of their race or gender.

Rose

[duxrow]

Hello Bob,

I'm sorry, but your post makes no sense to me...:confused: The point as I see it is not whether the Canaanites died, because we all die... it's the immoral manner in which god had them killed. Death happens to everyone, whether or not you believe in the biblegod; the problem arises when this biblegod arbitrarily has one group of people killed and allows another group to live merely because of their race or gender.

Rose
:fight:
Hey Rose, You aren't seeing the Bible as The Instruction Book for LIFE, from the Creator of Life. And it's not 'arbitrary' -- it's directed in the OT against the malefactors, but now in the NT against the lies of the anti-Christ (need I say who that is?) :rolleyes:

[Rose]

:fight:
Hey Rose, You aren't seeing the Bible as The Instruction Book for LIFE, from the Creator of Life. And it's not 'arbitrary' -- it's directed in the OT against the malefactors, but now in the NT against the lies of the anti-Christ (need I say who that is?) :rolleyes:

Hey Bob, so you wanna fight...:sFi_boxingmatch:

Here is a good example of arbitrary...when David defeated the Moabites he forced them to lie on the ground and then arbitrarily killed two for every one he kept alive, all done by gods command.

2Sam.8:2 And he smote Moab, and measured them with a line, casting them down to the ground; even with two lines he measured those he would put to death, and with one full line those to be kept alive. And so the Moabites became David's servants, and brought gifts.

[duxrow]

Hey Bob, so you wanna fight...: Here is a good example of arbitrary...when David defeated the Moabites he forced them to lie on the ground and then arbitrarily killed two for every one he kept alive, all done by gods command.
2Sam.8:2 And he smote Moab, and measured them with a line, casting them down to the ground; even with two lines he measured those he would put to death, and with one full line those to be kept alive.[/B][/COLOR] And so the Moabites became David's servants, and brought gifts.
[/INDENT]
:egad:
Ps19:4 "Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun".
Different kinds of lines, you know..:winking0071:

Gen15:16 "But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full". Levi / Kohath / Amram / Moses The "Iniquity of Americans" must be near full. Don't think we'll see the results as arbitrary, but rather like "vengeance is mine". You think?

[Rose]

:egad:
Ps19:4 "Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun".
Different kinds of lines, you know..:winking0071:

Gen15:16 "But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full". Levi / Kohath / Amram / Moses The "Iniquity of Americans" must be near full. Don't think we'll see the results as arbitrary, but rather like "vengeance is mine". You think?

It's OK, don't worry, I won't fight you anymore...:grouphug5:

So, I guess it's all just metaphor...including god :winking0071:

Rose

[duxrow]

:sFun_dangling:
Not metaphor, but Keel-hauling is where the person to be keel-hauled has two ropes tied to him, usually around the waist, and then he gets thrown overboard at the bow of the ship. One of the ropes is carried down the port side of the ship and the other down the starboard side, and the person (or body) is then retrieved at the stern. This is particularly spectacular if the ship is large or if the waters happen to be shark infested.

"Drawn & Quartered" is where four ropes are tied to the person (arms and legs) and then drawn taut towards the four points of the compass, either by people or horses or perhaps tanks, until the culprit hollers "Uncle".

"Wishbone" or "Splitsville" is the American Indian version where the tops of two flexible saplings are pulled down and attached securely to either leg before allowing the trees to spring back to their usual position.

It isn't clear whether the ACLU has declared these forms of punishment as "cruel and unusual", but an exception or example might be made of certain cases, just to keep those options on the table, as appropriate. :D

[David M]

Hey Bob, so you wanna fight...:sFi_boxingmatch:

Here is a good example of arbitrary...when David defeated the Moabites he forced them to lie on the ground and then arbitrarily killed two for every one he kept alive, all done by gods command.

2Sam.8:2 And he smote Moab, and measured them with a line, casting them down to the ground; even with two lines he measured those he would put to death, and with one full line those to be kept alive. And so the Moabites became David's servants, and brought gifts.


Hello Rose,

I agree what David did appears a brutal thing to do. I am curious why David made two lines and whether there was any criteria for the way the two lines were assembled. While I have no answers at this moment I can understand why David killed the Moabites. The Moabites were as bad as the Canaanites. This means that God would not have judged the Moabites to be better than the Canaanites and therefore we might expect the same punishemnt that came upon the Canaanites to come on the Moabites. This would show that God is consistent in what He says and in punishing reprobates who did the the abominable things God hated.

This is what we find recorded in Zephaniah 2:9 Therefore as I live, saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Surely Moab shall be as Sodom, and the children of Ammon as Gomorrah,

The nations surrounding Israel were an abomination to God and these nations corrupted Israel. Admittedly , Israel were also responsible as we are told; Ezra 9:1 Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites. 2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass.

This does show that all the surrounding nations surrounding Israel were as bad as one another and Israel were to blame for corrupting themsleves by mingling with these nations.

All this goes to show that all these people were a very bad lot and not of value in God's sight and they were expendable. This goes go to explain why David was allowed to kill the Moabites in the way he did.

This will not help you get over your hangup on these episodes of violence but it does go a long way in mitigating David's actions. Don't blame David, blame the abominable people.

Wars and killings of what we read about in this period of history was the order of that day. Many abominable things are done in the world today and have been committed all down the ages, maybe the extent of the abominations done in the name of other gods is not as great now as it was in those days. For the last 2,0000 years, God's chosen people have been scattered, and have been punished in this way for their failings and disobedience to God. They ceased to exist as a nation after the damage had been done. Now the nation of Israel has been restored, we shall see the nation of Israel overrun once more to come and this will occur at the time when God will pour out His judgements on all nations of the earth and especially those that come against Israel. There is coming a Day of Vengeance. This is one aspect of God's nature that is consistent and He will judge all peoples and many will be killed never to live again..

You can disagaree with me that God is not immoral in killing off reprobates and saving those who are faithful, but that is the way it is and I doubt anyone on the receiving end of God's grace inheriting eternal life is going to disagree with God and say He does not have the right to kill off reprobates. These repbrobates will never enter the Kingdom of God and whilst they could be allowed to die off naturally, God said in advance what He would do. People hav been given warnings and the opportunity to change their ways; if not they suffer the consequences. By God declaring what He will do in advance is proof of the existence of God when these things come to pass. I can see events taking place now that prove what God has predicted is coming to pass. God's judgement on could take place within the next few years; it is definitely coming. The day will come and it will come suddenly and catch many unawares. We cannot say we have not been warned. We ignore God's warning at our peril.

All the best,

David

[Rose]

Hello Rose,

I agree what David did appears a brutal thing to do. I am curious why David made two lines and whether there was any criteria for the way the two lines were assembled. While I have no answers at this moment I can understand why David killed the Moabites. The Moabites were as bad as the Canaanites. This means that God would not have judged the Moabites to be better than the Canaanites and therefore we might expect the same punishemnt that came upon the Canaanites to come on the Moabites. This would show that God is consistent in what He says and in punishing reprobates who did the the abominable things God hated.

This is what we find recorded in Zephaniah 2:9 Therefore as I live, saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Surely Moab shall be as Sodom, and the children of Ammon as Gomorrah,

The nations surrounding Israel were an abomination to God and these nations corrupted Israel. Admittedly , Israel were also responsible as we are told; Ezra 9:1 Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites. 2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass.

This does show that all the surrounding nations surrounding Israel were as bad as one another and Israel were to blame for corrupting themsleves by mingling with these nations.

All this goes to show that all these people were a very bad lot and not of value in God's sight and they were expendable. This goes go to explain why David was allowed to kill the Moabites in the way he did.

Hello David,

The arbitrary way in which God told David to kill the Moabites explains nothing! First off, if all the Moabites were wicked and corrupted, why did God allow any of them to live? Secondly, if only some of them were wicked, then randomly killing them does not assure all the evil ones will be killed, but does assure some innocent people will be killed. Thirdly, there is nothing whatsoever consistent about how God chose to kill the Moabites, it's immoral and abominable.


This will not help you get over your hangup on these episodes of violence but it does go a long way in mitigating David's actions. Don't blame David, blame the abominable people.

Wars and killings of what we read about in this period of history was the order of that day. Many abominable things are done in the world today and have been committed all down the ages, maybe the extent of the abominations done in the name of other gods is not as great now as it was in those days. For the last 2,0000 years, God's chosen people have been scattered, and have been punished in this way for their failings and disobedience to God. They ceased to exist as a nation after the damage had been done. Now the nation of Israel has been restored, we shall see the nation of Israel overrun once more to come and this will occur at the time when God will pour out His judgements on all nations of the earth and especially those that come against Israel. There is coming a Day of Vengeance. This is one aspect of God's nature that is consistent and He will judge all peoples and many will be killed never to live again..

I'm sorry that you consider a reaction to immoral acts of violence to be a "Hangup"...where's your compassion? Has Christianity hardened your heart?


You can disagaree with me that God is not immoral in killing off reprobates and saving those who are faithful, but that is the way it is and I doubt anyone on the receiving end of God's grace inheriting eternal life is going to disagree with God and say He does not have the right to kill off reprobates. These repbrobates will never enter the Kingdom of God and whilst they could be allowed to die off naturally, God said in advance what He would do. People hav been given warnings and the opportunity to change their ways; if not they suffer the consequences. By God declaring what He will do in advance is proof of the existence of God when these things come to pass. I can see events taking place now that prove what God has predicted is coming to pass. God's judgement on could take place within the next few years; it is definitely coming. The day will come and it will come suddenly and catch many unawares. We cannot say we have not been warned. We ignore God's warning at our peril.

All the best,

David

Whether or not God has a right to kill people, has nothing to do with whether or not it's immoral! All throughout Scripture the biblegod metes out punishment in a unjust, immoral, and arbitrary fashion. Sometimes the capricious god of the Bible allows some of the so-called idolatrous people to live (if the men need virgin wives), other times he says utterly kill them all, or randomly pick and choose who you want to kill. I guess it depends on what kind of a mood he is in...:lol:

Take care,
Rose

[duxrow]

:sSW_emperor:
"The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away,
none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come". Isa57:1

Many things we humans don't know, including what happens to those who are 'taken away',
but could be a big plus if we had the righteousness of Jesus,
'cause He's got the Judge in his pocket! 2Cor5:21:thumb:

[David M]

:sSW_emperor:
"The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away,
none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come". Isa57:1

Many things we humans don't know, including what happens to those who are 'taken away',
but could be a big plus if we had the righteousness of Jesus,
'cause He's got the Judge in his pocket! 2Cor5:21:thumb:

Thank you Bob for this little gem.

This is what will God will do in the future in the day His wrath is poured out on the nations. In the time to come "there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was", God will take away those to be saved to safety before the earth feels the wrath of God and this will coincide with the return of Jesus and judgment. In fact, Jesus says; Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

All the best,

David

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Thank you Bob for this little gem.

This is what will God will do in the future in the day His wrath is poured out on the nations. In the time to come "there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was", God will take away those to be saved to safety before the earth feels the wrath of God and this will coincide with the return of Jesus and judgment. In fact, Jesus says; Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

All the best,

David
This is a good example of what I meant when I said that Futurism contradicts the Bible. Luke 21:36 is part of the Olivet Discourse which Christ said would be fulfilled during the lifetime of his first century audience.

Luke 21:

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies [this happened in 66 AD], then know that its desolation is near [not 2000 years in the future].

21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people [the Jews to whom he was speaking].

24 "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

25 " And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 "men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken.

27 "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 "Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

29 ¶ Then He spoke to them a parable: "Look at the fig tree, and all the trees.

30 "When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 "So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.

32 "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation [who heard him speaking] will by no means pass away till all things take place.

33 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

34 ¶ " But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.

35 "For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 "Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jesus opened the Olivet Discourse with his prediction of the destruction of the Temple. He said all things would be fulfilled during the lifetime of his first century audience. History records that his words were fulfilled in 70 AD. To deny his words is to deny the Bible.

I have written an big article that reviews all three versions of the Olivet Discourse and shows that they must have been fulfilled in the first century or Christ was a false prophet. The article is called The Synoptic Apocalypse (http://localhost/Theology/Olivet_Discourse.asp). It also shows how Revelation was a prophecy of the same events.