Is hell anything like -- do unto others and love the sinner? [Archive]

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Greatest I am

05-17-2012, 01:11 PM

Rose

05-17-2012, 07:18 PM

Is hell anything like -- do unto others and love the sinner?

Some more enlightened Christians are trying to mature Christianity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

The Christian invention of hell and Christian strong desire for it to exist, shows a hatred that is quite deep within the Christian tribal soul.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv_rmQuagpY&feature=player_embedded

Jesus would not cast the first stone yet Christians adamantly demand that he cast the last killing stone called hell.

You will reap what you sow Christian.

This will be you unless you repent from your hating ways. You are corrupting Jesus and his good archetypal name.

I predict this following for you if you do not lose your hate for those who just happen by accident of birth to not believe as you do. Beware.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3LNL6wKhXA

Regards
DL

Hi DL,

I think Bishop Spong makes a very good point about the human religious system being in the control business and using it as a way to produce guilt. As long as the Church continues to make people feel guilty for being human they will have control over their lives which is what keeps them in business.

Sad to say, Hell is not just a Christian invention, because Jesus himself used the threat of Hell to instill fear into his followers.

Luke 12:4-5 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Mark 9:43-48 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

All the best,
Rose

David M

05-18-2012, 03:03 AM

Hi DL,
Sad to say, Hell is not just a Christian invention, because Jesus himself used the threat of Hell to instill fear into his followers.
Rose

Good morning Rose

Hell is not a threat, it is inevitable for us all. We shall all go the the grave eventually. When we are dead, there is no more remembrance and no more conciousness. THE END.

However, it does not have to be that way. Those who know it does not have to be that way, can be in fear of losing out on eternal life which God offers. It is the fear of losing that opportunity that Jesus wanted to instill in his hearers. Fear "him" that will cause you to miss out on the resurrection by remaining in the grave (hell). "Fear him that....."

David

Rose

05-18-2012, 07:55 AM

Good morning Rose

Hell is not a threat, it is inevitable for us all. We shall all go the the grave eventually. When we are dead, there is no more remembrance and no more conciousness. THE END.

However, it does not have to be that way. Those who know it does not have to be that way, can be in fear of losing out on eternal life which God offers. It is the fear of losing that opportunity that Jesus wanted to instill in his hearers. Fear "him" that will cause you to miss out on the resurrection by remaining in the grave (hell). "Fear him that....."

David

Good morning David, :yo:

Obviously from the verses I quoted Jesus was not speaking of the grave as being the end of it all. With words like "where the worm doesn't die" and "the fire is not quenched" tells the reader that he was talking of Hell as a place of suffering and torment.

Luke 12:4-5 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Mark 9:43-48 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

All the best,
Rose

David M

05-19-2012, 01:03 AM

Good morning David, :yo:

Obviously from the verses I quoted Jesus was not speaking of the grave as being the end of it all. With words like "where the worm doesn't die" and "the fire is not quenched" tells the reader that he was talking of Hell as a place of suffering and torment.

Luke 12:4-5 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Mark 9:43-48 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

All the best,
Rose

Good morning Rose

I concentrated on the first verse by way of reply and the words "fear him..."

The second verse you emphasize now is not really speaking of eternal torture as you think. I am afraid this is another myth that has been expounded from incorrectly understanding the scriptures and was used by unscrupulous church leaders to keep people held by in fear. These teachers of lies have been responsible for misguiding many people.

The words in the quote (above) from Mark's gospel find their origin in Isaiah 66:24 for which you will need to read that chapter to understand the background. Also, the place elsewhere referred to as Gehenna (as I understand it) was a place outside the city of Jerusalem akin to a rubbish tip where the rubbish dumped and burnt. If you wanted to utterly destroy something then burning is the way to do it. This place of burning was such that there was a continual fire much like my garden bonfire which once lit smolders for days while I keep adding to it until everything has burned away. So it was that the rubbish tip outside Jerusalem would be a continual place of burning as more rubbish was continually added. Hence to all appearances the fire would continue to burn forever (everlasting) or for as long as rubbish was continually dumped there.

Land fill sites filled with rubbish have been known to catch on fire. Landfill sites are lined these days with a membrane before they are filled and once full are capped in order to capture the methane gas that is produced. This methane can be usefully burnt to provide heating. You can see why decaying rubbish producing methane gas will keep a rubbish tip alight.

The place of hell being a place of fire and place where people are continually tortured is a myth; a myth which is now busted.

All the best,

David

Rose

05-19-2012, 10:26 AM

Good morning Rose

I concentrated on the first verse by way of reply and the words "fear him..."

The second verse you emphasize now is not really speaking of eternal torture as you think. I am afraid this is another myth that has been expounded from incorrectly understanding the scriptures and was used by unscrupulous church leaders to keep people held by in fear. These teachers of lies have been responsible for misguiding many people.

The words in the quote (above) from Mark's gospel find their origin in Isaiah 66:24 for which you will need to read that chapter to understand the background. Also, the place elsewhere referred to as Gehenna (as I understand it) was a place outside the city of Jerusalem akin to a rubbish tip where the rubbish dumped and burnt. If you wanted to utterly destroy something then burning is the way to do it. This place of burning was such that there was a continual fire much like my garden bonfire which once lit smolders for days while I keep adding to it until everything has burned away. So it was that the rubbish tip outside Jerusalem would be a continual place of burning as more rubbish was continually added. Hence to all appearances the fire would continue to burn forever (everlasting) or for as long as rubbish was continually dumped there.

Land fill sites filled with rubbish have been known to catch on fire. Landfill sites are lined these days with a membrane before they are filled and once full are capped in order to capture the methane gas that is produced. This methane can be usefully burnt to provide heating. You can see why decaying rubbish producing methane gas will keep a rubbish tip alight.

The place of hell being a place of fire and place where people are continually tortured is a myth; a myth which is now busted.

All the best,

David

Good morning David,

I don't think what you are calling a myth has been busted, at least as far as what Jesus meant when he spoke of Hell, or Gehenna. If you will notice in the verses I quoted, Jesus speaks of Hell as being a place where "the worm dieth not" which is the key word that needs to be looked at to understand what is meant. The reason the connection to Gehenna is used is because it is a place that is continually burning, but the added element of the worm never dying changes everything, which is exactly what Jesus intended. If your hand, or your foot, or your eye offends you pluck it out, because it is far better to suffer a little right now then to suffer forever in a place where even the worm never dies.

Mark 9:43-48 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

All the best,
Rose

David M

05-19-2012, 04:21 PM

Good morning David,

I don't think what you are calling a myth has been busted, at least as far as what Jesus meant when he spoke of Hell, or Gehenna. If you will notice in the verses I quoted, Jesus speaks of Hell as being a place where "the worm dieth not" which is the key word that needs to be looked at to understand what is meant. The reason the connection to Gehenna is used is because it is a place that is continually burning, but the added element of the worm never dying changes everything, which is exactly what Jesus intended. If your hand, or your foot, or your eye offends you pluck it out, because it is far better to suffer a little right now then to suffer forever in a place where even the worm never dies.

Mark 9:43-48 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

All the best,
Rose

Hello Rose

Sorry Rose, I do not thhink you know what Jesus intended and to say the "worm dieth not" changes everything does not change anything at all. It is the worms that eventually eat the corrupting body so that there are only the bones remaining. The worms eat away at the flesh long after the person has died. The worms feed off the person who is dead. I do not see what this has to do with torment in hell. It is a myth. Job uses some strange language to concerning the grave, and reference to the worm.

Job 24
13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.
14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.
15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?
16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

Note the use of the expression; the worm shall not die used by Isaiah.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Look at the reference to carcases. These are not living bodies, but are dead bodies. It looks as if Jesus was quoting this expression from Isaiah. Again there is no suggestion of eternal torment in hell. It is referring to death in the grave. This is the true message of the Bible that when a person is dead they go to the grave and that is where they remain for ever or until raised to judgment. Any idea of torment in hell is pure myth and fantasy.

All the best,

David

Rose

05-19-2012, 04:52 PM

Hello Rose

Sorry Rose, I do not thhink you know what Jesus intended and to say the "worm dieth not" changes everything does not change anything at all. It is the worms that eventually eat the corrupting body so that there are only the bones remaining. The worms eat away at the flesh long after the person has died. The worms feed off the person who is dead. I do not see what this has to do with torment in hell. It is a myth. Job uses some strange language to concerning the grave, and reference to the worm.

Job 24
13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.
14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.
15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?
16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

Note the use of the expression; the worm shall not die used by Isaiah.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Look at the reference to carcases. These are not living bodies, but are dead bodies. It looks as if Jesus was quoting this expression from Isaiah. Again there is no suggestion of eternal torment in hell. It is referring to death in the grave. This is the true message of the Bible that when a person is dead they go to the grave and that is where they remain for ever or until raised to judgment. Any idea of torment in hell is pure myth and fantasy.

All the best,

David

Hi David,

I must say I do agree with you about Hell being a myth and a fantasy, even when I was a Christian I did not believe in Hell though I know there are many people who do causing them much fear and concern.

Just because worms eat corrupting bodies does not mean they never die, so the language Jesus uses about the fire never being quenched and the worm never dying gives the idea of an ongoing eternal event. If Jesus was just talking about the natural course of the death of the body it would have applied to everyone, because everyone's fleshly body is eaten by worms after death and once it's gone, it's gone.

Rose

David M

05-21-2012, 05:00 AM

Hi David,

I must say I do agree with you about Hell being a myth and a fantasy, even when I was a Christian I did not believe in Hell though I know there are many people who do causing them much fear and concern.

Just because worms eat corrupting bodies does not mean they never die, so the language Jesus uses about the fire never being quenched and the worm never dying gives the idea of an ongoing eternal event. If Jesus was just talking about the natural course of the death of the body it would have applied to everyone, because everyone's fleshly body is eaten by worms after death and once it's gone, it's gone.

Rose

Hello Rose

It is good we are agreeing or are close to agreeing something at last. I think the worm never dying and the unquenchable fire is correct so long as rubbish is dumped on the tip and if bodies were unceremoniously dumped on the tip they would contribute to keeping the fire alight. The worms are something that is always present with corrupting flesh and it is good that worms (and the like) eat decaying flesh, because in so doing, the decaying material gets recycled. It is the same with wood lice helping to break down rotting wood. The process is endless since there is always material that is rotting away. Yet another of God's designs that perhaps goes unappreciated. Nature has it owns scavengers to clear up the decaying and rotting material.

Of course, if you agree that "Hell" is another work of man's fiction, then you ought to see how that "angels" (Jude 6 2Peter 2:4) being cast into Hell or rooms of darkness is also a work of fiction based on other men's superstitions which make no sense. If angels are in Hell, and the angels referred to are spirits how can physical chains hold them? As the true meaning of Hell is the grave, then it would suggest that the angels must be human and therefore cannot refer to God's Angels with Him in Heaven. This might be my hobby-horse at the moment, but it is essential we understand correctly who the "angels" are. Myths have to be busted in order to get to the truth.

Once we recognize one myth, this should lead to an unraveling of the myths that get compounded. Once all the myths are exposed for what they are, then the process of reconstruction of Bible truth can begin.

I hope we can agree some more.

David