The Bible is not a Moral Guidebook

[heb13-13]

My manager who is Muslim is always trying to get me into morality discussions. She has not lambasted the Bible as being immoral but it wouldn't surprise me if she did. She is very politically minded. It would be a good discussion, though. She loves to discuss. She does like to pick on conservative Christian politicians that hold the Bible as a moral guide and then they do the opposite. I can't blame her. She was surprised one day when I told her that the Bible is not a guide on morality and Christianity is not about morality. Of course she was completely shocked because as long as she could remember this was how Christianity was presented to her.

Man has quite a vaunted view of himself and his "abilities" and finds it easy to indict God and what He does as recorded in the Bible. Especially the OT. But, I think God knew exactly what He had to do in the midst of evil, reprobate man in order to preserve a nation from which He would bring forth a Savior. Jesus (who is God) would not disagree and did not disagree with any of the Old Testament, because He knew everything that God did was necessary and right and just. Maybe not in your eyes, no never in your eyes, but God is always righteous and just in all that He does.

You may say now, "well if Christianity is not about morality and the Bible is not a moral guide", then what is it?

Well, it is a guide. Indeed, it is a gift! It is a guidebook of Revelation about a Savior and how He made it possible for us to be redeemed. It is the Revelation of a person and His Word ignites and energizes faith, by which we receive His revelation. It is also an ugly history of man and even the necessary tactics that God had to take in order to bring His plan to fruition. God is not held captive by men screaming for "human rights". What you say? That is exactly what I said. In the Old Testament God would not be held captive by man crying out for equality and rights. God always knows men and knows what He is dealing with. Conversely, in the NT, He let Himself be taken captive by man and endured their insults hurled at Him. And He dies for all of us sinful, unrepentant sinners crying out for our rights.

You can understand how the Bible is God's Word when you realize it was not intended to be a Moral Guidebook. It deals with man's history and part of God's history attempting to teach stiffnecked men about Himself, about another way, the Christ-way, the way of the Spirit. Not the lower way of morality, but the higher way of Love. The Love of God has nothing to do with man's morality. Man's morality killed the Love of God, or though they thought they did. Men's morality is fickle, ever changing and self-serving though they will protest this characterization.

Man's morality screams for rights, the Love of God, gives up all rights. Gandhi protested and marched for rights, Jesus and His Apostles did not and neither will His disciples. Morality is not the Christ-way. The way of Christ trusts in God and does not put hope in men. True disciples know you cannot change the heart of men through education or any other means apart from God's Spirit. Man's morality tries to change men and impose on them their "rules for living".

'… self-improvement is both a sin and an impossibility.'
Norman Grubb



"Morality is part of the condition of the fall. Now endowed with the power to define good and evil, to elaborate it, to know it and to pretend to obey it, man can no longer renounce this power which he has purchased so dearly. He must exercise it. He (fallen man) cannot live without morality." (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do. Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 71)
"Christianity has nothing commensurate with any morality. It is the essence itself of revelation that rules out all ethical systematizing and all similarity with a morality. The Christian life is not a life conformed to a morality, but one conformed to a word revealed, present, and living." (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do. Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 86)
"In the eyes of our contemporaries, Christianity is morality first of all. And have not many epochs of Christian history been characterized by the church's insistence upon actions and conduct? ...There cannot be a Christian ethic. The whole of revelation is against it, and every attempt to construct such a morality, no matter how faithful, is a betrayal of the revelation of God in Jesus Christ, and in the last analysis an imposture. (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do. Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 201)
"The Christian...life is dynamic. Each situation, like each person, is novel. The command of God is not a general rule, or collection of rules. It is always particular for a person at this moment, in this situation. In the unity recovered through grace, in the union with God, we are in the presence of quite a different ethical orientation. It can only be lived in Christ. There is no Christian life without the action of the Holy Spirit, without His inspiration and guidance. The necessity for God's intervening to guide our lives puts an end to our pretending to erect a Christian morality. Christian living does not exist as a morality; for he who lives it, lives by it. He does not follow commandments nor achieve objectives. He lives by the word of God which nourishes him, guides him, and carries him. There is not one Christian life. There are as many Christian lives as there are Christians. One lives in ever-surprising novelty. (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do. Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 201-219)
"Christianity seems at first to be all about morality, all about duties and rules and guilt and virtue, yet it leads you on, out of all that, into something beyond. One has a glimpse of a country where they do not talk of those things, except perhaps as a joke. Every one there is filled full with what we should call goodness as a mirror is filled with light. But they do not call it goodness. They do not call it anything. They are not thinking of it. They are too busy looking at the source from which it comes." (C. S. Lewis - Mere Christianity. Macmillan Publishing. 1978. pgs. 130,131)
"The Christian is in a different position from other people who are trying to do good. The Christian thinks any good he does come from the Christ-life inside him. He does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us..." (C. S. Lewis - Mere Christianity. Macmillan Publishing. 1978. pg. 64)

Rick

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Man has quite a vaunted view of himself and his "abilities" and finds it easy to indict God and what He does as recorded in the Bible. Especially the OT. But, I think God knew exactly what He had to do in the midst of evil, reprobate man in order to preserve a nation from which He would bring forth a Savior. Jesus (who is God) would not disagree and did not disagree with any of the Old Testament, because He knew everything that God did was necessary and right and just. Maybe not in your eyes, no never in your eyes, but God is always righteous and just in all that He does.

Your post seems self-contradictory. When you assert that "God is always righteous and just in all He does" you are making MORAL JUDGMENT about God. So what you are really saying is that no matter what the Bible says about God, we must call it "good" no matter how bad it appears. That seems insane to me.

I could just as well state that Adolf Hitler "was always righteous and just in all he does." The immorality of what he actually did means nothing ... it only appeared to be immoral according to our faulty human reasoning.

If you say that God is good no matter what he does, then what does "good" mean? It seems you have cast away all logic and all meaning of words. How can the Bible have any meaning at all?

[heb13-13]

Your post seems self-contradictory. When you assert that "God is always righteous and just in all He does" you are making MORAL JUDGMENT about God. So what you are really saying is that no matter what the Bible says about God, we must call it "good" no matter how bad it appears. That seems insane to me.

I could just as well state that Adolf Hitler "was always righteous and just in all he does." The immorality of what he actually did means nothing ... it only appeared to be immoral according to our faulty human reasoning.

If you say that God is good no matter what he does, then what does "good" mean? It seems you have cast away all logic and all meaning of words. How can the Bible have any meaning at all?

Hi Richard,

I will try to provide examples of people discovering that the ways of God is what's GOOD and not man-made morality and rules. God's ways always seem contradictory to us. Though you are I do not understand some of the ways (decisions) of God, it certainly does not invalidate that "No one is good, except God".

Here is one such story taken from http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/01/finding-the-key/

When my husband and I were courting, we carefully set our 'line' of physical touch. There would be no kissing until our wedding day; handholding was ok after we were engaged. Yes, we were following the 'courtship model,' albeit loosely. We had been friends and had a lot contact before we were officially courting. We had discussed the perfect wedding and the fact that we felt like God had more in store for us than just a friendship. I even knew when he was calling my dad, so, even though our courtship could never have been printed up in the little booklets and passed out at Knoxville, it was still a bit of a 'courtship,' and our first kiss was put off until our wedding day.

Fast forward to after the wedding, thousands of kisses later; I was in a discussion about setting limits during dating/courtship, engagement. A friend of mine said that she and her husband didn’t set an arbitrary line. Rather, they had worked at listening to the Holy Spirit.

Whoa! Novel concept! If we had done that, we might have kissed! And now, looking back, I had to admit that my friend’s approach had some serious advantages over mine.

For starters, it would have required being more open with each other about what actions were causing a problem rather than just sticking with the 'no kissing' rule. But more importantly, isn’t listening to the Holy Spirit and following His lead central to Christianity? Doesn’t Scripture say, 'Walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh'? (Gal. 5:16).

I mean, according to that verse, the key to not sinning isn’t making rules, it’s walking in the Spirit.

Sadly, on that day when my friend mentioned the way that she and her husband dealt with not falling into sin, it really was novel to me. I mean, honestly, I had been saved how long? More than 25 years?!?!? I grew up in the church. The key to living the Christian life should not have been hidden to me.

Sometimes, I think that up until recently, the story of my Christian life could be summarized in another verse from Galatians. 'Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now going to be made complete by the flesh?' (Gal. 3:3).

Even though I (hopefully) had looked to Jesus alone for Salvation, I was looking to the flesh for sanctification. Just following Him wasn’t enough to avoid sin. I had to add a few extra rules.

But, that doesn’t keep me from sinning. Sure, I didn’t kiss my husband until our wedding day. I kept my promise. But does that mean I didn’t sin during our engagment? Absolutely not! Not kissing him didn’t prevent me from wishing I could kiss him and then some. And it didn’t conquer lust.

But, you know what did happen? During those days of being madly in love and wishing I could show it more, during that time of working to resist the desire to kiss him, the Holy Spirit was with me. I did cross lines. Not the ones that Samuel and I had drawn, but lines that God had drawn. And the Guide that my loving Father has given me was faithful to tell me about it. And I, because I am His, responded to get my actions realigned, not with the extra vows we had made to keep ourselves from sin, but with what He was saying in my heart.

So, I’m now trying to correct my theology. I’m trying to get my mind to accept what my heart obviously knew. And I keep coming back to the end of Colossians, chapter 2. 'If you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world? Why do you submit to regulations: 'Don’t handle, don’t taste, don’t touch'? All these regulations refer to what is destroyed by being used up; they are commands and doctrines of men. Although these have a reputation of wisdom by promoting ascetic practices, humility and a severe treatment of the body, they are not of any value in curbing self-indulgence.'

I remember reading passages like that and Romans 14 and thinking that the Apostle Paul must have been mistaken. Of course those extra rules were good for us! The IBLP (Bill Gothard) system teaches that you can judge the spirituality of a person by the number of commitments he made. We were basically taught that Romans 14 was backwards. Extra-Biblical standards are for the spiritually strong, not the spiritually weak.

Now, I am amazed at the level of deception I had fallen into… to think that Gothard knew more than the Apostle Paul and that his system was above the Word of God.

I’m so thankful for the realization that it’s 'Not by strength or by might, but My Spirit, says the Lord of Hosts' (Zech. 4:6). I’m so excited about this life that is completely by grace through faith, empowered by the Holy Spirit. Talk about limitless possibilities! And limitless power to conquer sin. Again, I realize that God’s way really is best! 'Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far and grace will lead me home.'

Take care my friend,
Rick

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,

I will try to provide examples of people discovering that the ways of God is what's GOOD and not man-made morality and rules. God's ways always seem contradictory to us. Though you are I do not understand some of the ways (decisions) of God, it certainly does not invalidate that "No one is good, except God".

Here is one such story taken from http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/01/finding-the-key/

Hi Rick,

I don't understand your answer. The idea of "listening to the Holy Spirit" is totally subjective. How does it differ from "following your intuition?" Take a room with 100 Christians and you will probably get 100 different answers about what the "Holy Spirit" is saying. The one thing we know about fundamentalist Christians who all believe they "have the Spirit" is that they disagree with each other about nearly everything. That's why there are thousands of fundamentalist denominations.

I have been trying to get you to engage me on this question for a long time. Your religion seems entirely subjective. Is there any way for a person to discern between an "imaginary Jesus" and a "real Jesus?" If so, how?

And it would be good if you could answer my points in the previous post. Your assertion that "God is good" seems void of all content. It seems quite clear that the word "good" does not mean "good" in any ordinary sense of the word.

All the very best, my friend,

Richard

[heb13-13]

Hi Rick,

I don't understand your answer. The idea of "listening to the Holy Spirit" is totally subjective. How does it differ from "following your intuition?" Take a room with 100 Christians and you will probably get 100 different answers about what the "Holy Spirit" is saying. The one thing we know about fundamentalist Christians who all believe they "have the Spirit" is that they disagree with each other about nearly everything. That's why there are thousands of fundamentalist denominations.

I have been trying to get you to engage me on this question for a long time. Your religion seems entirely subjective. Is there any way for a person to discern between an "imaginary Jesus" and a "real Jesus?" If so, how?

And it would be good if you could answer my points in the previous post. Your assertion that "God is good" seems void of all content. It seems quite clear that the word "good" does not mean "good" in any ordinary sense of the word.

All the very best, my friend,

Richard

Hi Richard,

As was quoted before, "There is not one Christian life. There are as many Christian lives as there are Christians. One lives in ever-surprising novelty. "

What you don't seem to understand is that if you get 100 Christians (who know the Lord, not religion) you will get a lot of agreement, too.

I have 4 children, they all know objective things about me, but their individual relationships with me are also quite subjective and this does not invalidate their relationship with me. If an outside person only knows objective things about me (through their own interpretation) then they may not agree or understand my son or daughter's subjective statements and they are free to either accept or reject them (ignore them). In fact, my son or daughter's subjective statements about me may conflict with the outsider's objective understanding/interpretation of me. However, my son's and daughters will nod with "knowing" agreement with each other.

Get 100 Christians in a room who have the Spirit of God and many of their subjective statements about their Father will garner hearty amen's.

I say amen to many things Bob, Charisma, duxrow, gilgal and others say, because I witness to their revelation of my Father's nature.

I have heard many things that people have said about God/Jesus and just shook my head knowing that it is not true.
Other things are revelation to me and I just say, "I did not know that about the Lord". I am always learning more things about Him.

I think the problem that "outsiders" have is that this is in many respects a subjective "religion" if you want to call it that because it has to do with relationship. And it is true that a big part of relationships is the subjective aspect of them. There are objective things to be known about everyone not the least of which is God, but then you, personally, have to launch out "into the deep" and get subjective with Him (trust His word) and His Spirit. Then you begin to understand what is reality and what is not. Same thing with people. At some point you have to trust one another in order to get "deeper". Trust and Faith is a vital ingredient in ALL relationships. If you can't trust someone you can't have faith and that goes for God, too. I can see from yours and Rose's posts that you don't trust the God of the Bible, so that is why you don't have faith in Him.

I am pretty sure none of this helps you because you want 100% objectivity about relationship with God and I don't know anyone that can supply that to you. I will keep thinking of other ways to communicate to you.

Rick

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I think the problem that "outsiders" have is that this is in many respects a subjective "religion" if you want to call it that because it has to do with relationship. And it is true that a big part of relationships is the subjective aspect of them. There are objective things to be known about everyone not the least of which is God, but then you, personally, have to launch out "into the deep" and get subjective with Him (trust His word) and His Spirit. Then you begin to understand what is reality and what is not. Same thing with people. At some point you have to trust one another in order to get "deeper". Trust and Faith is a vital ingredient in ALL relationships. If you can't trust someone you can't have faith and that goes for God, too. I can see from yours and Rose's posts that you don't trust the God of the Bible, so that is why you don't have faith in Him.

I am pretty sure none of this helps you because you want 100% objectivity about relationship with God and I don't know anyone that can supply that to you. I will keep thinking of other ways to communicate to you.

Rick
Hi Rick,

I don't require "100% objectivity." Your relationship with your wife has many subjective elements which I do not expect you to be able to share with anyone. But if you told me that you had a relationship with your wife even as you admit that her existence cannot be objectively verified in any way at all, I would be strongly inclined to believe that she is a figment of your imagination.

So that's the question you have yet to answer: How does a person discern whether or not they have a relationship with a real rather than imaginary Jesus?

All the best,

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,

I will try to provide examples of people discovering that the ways of God is what's GOOD and not man-made morality and rules. God's ways always seem contradictory to us. Though you are I do not understand some of the ways (decisions) of God, it certainly does not invalidate that "No one is good, except God".
Hi Rick,

I have never equated morality with rules.

I think you may have overstated things when you say that God's ways always seem contradictory to us. If that were true, you couldn't make any sense of the Bible at all. What I think you really meant is that the Bible always appears contradictory to those are not believers "on the inside."

Your attempt to justify the bad in the Bible by calling it good destroys everything in the book. I cannot call good good if I cannot call evil evil.

[heb13-13]

Hi Rick,

I don't require "100% objectivity." Your relationship with your wife has many subjective elements which I do not expect you to be able to share with anyone. But if you told me that you had a relationship with your wife even as you admit that her existence cannot be objectively verified in any way at all, I would be strongly inclined to believe that she is a figment of your imagination.

So that's the question you have yet to answer: How does a person discern whether or not they have a relationship with a real rather than imaginary Jesus?

All the best,

Richard

Ok, Richard, I will be working on that one and come back. Have to get off the couch, now and get some things done.

Rick

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Ok, Richard, I will be working on that one and come back. Have to get off the couch, now and get some things done.

Rick
Sounds good. I need to get away from the puter myself. It's a beautiful day in Yakima.

[heb13-13]

Sounds good. I need to get away from the puter myself. It's a beautiful day in Yakima.

Hi Richard,

This is the beginning of my answer to you but not all of it.

My father died in 1995 so you will never be able to know him objectively. I knew him subjectively but you can know a bit about him objectively by knowing me because he raised me and many of his ways are still in me.

Reminds me of this verse.

2Co 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

Some other verses:

1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself (subjective): he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I will have more to say about these verses, later. I want to list out how one can know that Christ is at work in them. I think they can figure out if they were spiritually regenerated or not. Paul evidently knows that we can know when he says in 2 Co 13:5 to "examine yourselves, how that Christ is in you".

And I will talk a bit about regeneration. Spiritual regeneration (being born-again) is a crisis situation. It does not take place in a nice ceremony with candles and is not pre-planned. A radical spiritual exchange has taken place in the individual who is regenerated. When you exchange your present "life" which was dead in trespasses and sins for spiritual life, His life, this is a radical change and a person will know it. It is preposterous to think otherwise. Jesus said 'I came that you might have life and have it more abundantly" (John 10:10). He further explained, "I am the way, the truth and the life" (John 14:6). Paul states that we have been "raised to newness of life" (Romans 6:4), wherein "Christ is our life" (Colossians 3:4). The apostle John writes, "we have passed out of death into life" (I John 3:14); "he that has the Son has life; he that does not have the Son of God has not life" (I John 5:12). The spirit of the Christian is alive (Romans 8:10) with the life of Jesus Christ.

When one's spirit which is dead in trespasses and sins is now alive with the life of Jesus Christ, this is something that the imagination cannot concoct or sustain for a few years let alone 30.

When I was an unregenerate person I was spiritually dead. It was kind of an inactive condition, there was no spiritual activity. I was non-functional and had a spiritual vacuum or void in me. I was dwelling and walking in death and death is simply the deprivation of life. So, now imagine if you will what kind of crisis situation regeneration is. Spiritual life replacing death! Pretty radical and not something that anyone is sure to miss.

So, "getting saved", is not walking the aisle and getting your ticket punched and then going back and doing the same things you were always doing before.

I'll have more but we are having our meeting at my house tomorrow and it's late and I need to get back to cleaning up the house and getting things in order.

Good night,
Rick

[Rose]

Hi Richard,

And I will talk a bit about regeneration. Spiritual regeneration (being born-again) is a crisis situation. It does not take place in a nice ceremony with candles and is not pre-planned. A radical spiritual exchange has taken place in the individual who is regenerated. When you exchange your present "life" which was dead in trespasses and sins for spiritual life, His life, this is a radical change and a person will know it. It is preposterous to think otherwise. Jesus said 'I came that you might have life and have it more abundantly" (John 10:10). He further explained, "I am the way, the truth and the life" (John 14:6). Paul states that we have been "raised to newness of life" (Romans 6:4), wherein "Christ is our life" (Colossians 3:4). The apostle John writes, "we have passed out of death into life" (I John 3:14); "he that has the Son has life; he that does not have the Son of God has not life" (I John 5:12). The spirit of the Christian is alive (Romans 8:10) with the life of Jesus Christ.

When one's spirit which is dead in trespasses and sins is now alive with the life of Jesus Christ, this is something that the imagination cannot concoct or sustain for a few years let alone 30.

When I was an unregenerate person I was spiritually dead. It was kind of an inactive condition, there was no spiritual activity. I was non-functional and had a spiritual vacuum or void in me. I was dwelling and walking in death and death is simply the deprivation of life. So, now imagine if you will what kind of crisis situation regeneration is. Spiritual life replacing death! Pretty radical and not something that anyone is sure to miss.




Good night,
Rick




Hi Rick,

I was a Christian for nearly 30 years and can honestly say that neither before, during, or after my Christian experience did I ever feel dead in trespasses and sins, or in need of regeneration. I always wondered what people really meant when they said they were dead in their sins, because I never felt like a sinful person at any time in my life.

To be honest, when I experience the biggest change in my life was when I found freedom outside of the Christian box I was in, but I never realized how trapped I was until I unexpectedly found my freedom. Now, my life is the best it's ever been and I have a husband who feels the same way to share it with me.

All the best,
Rose

[heb13-13]

Hi Rick,

I was a Christian for nearly 30 years and can honestly say that neither before, during, or after my Christian experience did I ever feel dead in trespasses and sins, or in need of regeneration. I always wondered what people really meant when they said they were dead in their sins, because I never felt like a sinful person at any time in my life.

To be honest, when I experience the biggest change in my life was when I found freedom outside of the Christian box I was in, but I never realized how trapped I was until I unexpectedly found my freedom. Now, my life is the best it's ever been and I have a husband who feels the same way to share it with me.

All the best,
Rose

Thirty years is a long time to be a Christian and walk with God. Did He ever answer any of your prayers? It's difficult to understand how one could be a Christian for 30 years and not understand regeneration. If you never realized you were in a "box" for 30 years, how do you know you are not in another box even though you are happy? I'm sure there were times as a Christian you were happy, too. What was it like having Christ indwell you by His Spirit?

All the best,
Rick

[Bob May]

Thirty years is a long time to be a Christian and walk with God. Did He ever answer any of your prayers? It's difficult to understand how one could be a Christian for 30 years and not understand regeneration. If you never realized you were in a "box" for 30 years, how do you know you are not in another box even though you are happy? I'm sure there were times as a Christian you were happy, too. What was it like having Christ indwell you by His Spirit?

All the best,
Rick

Hi all,

I attended a church for 14 years in which following the law was paramount. Even though we also studied meditation, Qabalah, etc. I also had several Spiritual experiences during that time.
About six months before I left that church a small group of us began to see the truth of many verses in scripture that pointed to Grace as opposed to following law was the way to Truth. The more we saw it both in our lives and scripture the more it revealed itself as permeating the entire scripture.
We were amazed at how blind we had been. And for six months reasoned with other members of the church at the wrong way we had been seeing this Reality.

I want to Quote from Bernadette Robert's book "What is Self", (A study of the Spiritual Journey in Terms of Consciousness.) I would recommend this book highly.
In it she describes the spiritual journey in terms of first of all death of Ego.
Then the culmination of death of self.

What she called death of Ego matches with what I and my former church member called "an awareness of Grace."

"" The falling away of the Ego is the beginning of the true transforming process. Prior to this we had only been Reforming ourselves, or trying to transform what we knew of ourselves. With the falling away of the self-center (ego), however, we learn that True transformation is a divine work, a work to which we can only submit.""

Bernadette also states many times throughout this book that we cannot know the passing of either the Ego or the True Self except in hindsight. These experiences can only be discerned by looking back and seeing "what is missing."
The problem with tryng to see either Ego or Self is that we are these things and the very act of looking at ourselves is our self center (whether Ego or True Self).

My teacher made the observation that he was able to keep more laws by accident After he realised that he was under Grace than he ever did on purpose when he was under the law.

The bible is a book on expanded consciousness. (Or Revelation as Rick says), Not morality. There are moral teachings within it's pages, but there are also teachings about diet and family relationships etc., etc.
But the main thrust is growing in awareness.

The main premise of Bernadette's work, that there is a death of Ego and later a death of Self is illustrated by Jesus life as recorded in his 3 year ministry which culminated in his death on the cross (Self).
At this point Jesus said Eli, Eli Lama sabach thani. My God, my God why hast Thou forsaken me?

He never had an Ego. Then he died on the cross. Our walk after "coming to the Cross" is to follow him to our own cross. This is recorded in Acts and the rest of the NT. Pentecost (death of Ego) for us is equivalent to Jesus Baptism in Jordan. Then begins our long walk to the death of our true self. (Death on the cross)
All that is left at that point is our divine center.

Bob

[Rose]

Thirty years is a long time to be a Christian and walk with God. Did He ever answer any of your prayers? It's difficult to understand how one could be a Christian for 30 years and not understand regeneration. If you never realized you were in a "box" for 30 years, how do you know you are not in another box even though you are happy? I'm sure there were times as a Christian you were happy, too. What was it like having Christ indwell you by His Spirit?

All the best,
Rick

Hi Rick, :yo:

I was not raised in a Christian household, though I did have a deep intuitive sense of God starting in my early childhood. From a very young age I was always thankful to this creator of the universe I intuited for all I had. Around the age of 25 I found Christianity, and immediately mapped my intuited god onto Yahweh. I would have told you at the time I had a "born-again" experience (and tried speaking in tongues though I was never convinced), because I found Christ, but I never felt I had "sins" I needed to repent of...I knew I was a good person and I liked who I was, so for me there was nothing to regenerate, no evil flesh to kill.

Yes, I totally considered myself happy and free as a Christian, it wasn't until I unexpectedly found myself no longer able to believe the Bible to be the word of God, that I realized how restricted I was walking in the Christian mindset. I had no way of knowing the freedom that lay outside the Christian box, until I was on the outside looking in at where I had been.

What I thought was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was no more than my own intuitions that I had before I became a Christian and are still as strong as ever, and the prayers I would have told you were answered by God, are still being answered now that I don't believe. So, to be honest, nothing has changed except my sense of freedom from all those nagging problems in the Bible that were in constant need of justification to make its god palatable. I don't have all the answers by any means, but what I do know is that the Bible and its god are not what I once believed they were...so, my search continues with happiness and joy. :D


All the best,
Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,

This is the beginning of my answer to you but not all of it.

My father died in 1995 so you will never be able to know him objectively. I knew him subjectively but you can know a bit about him objectively by knowing me because he raised me and many of his ways are still in me.

Reminds me of this verse.

2Co 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

Some other verses:

1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself (subjective): he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I will have more to say about these verses, later. I want to list out how one can know that Christ is at work in them. I think they can figure out if they were spiritually regenerated or not. Paul evidently knows that we can know when he says in 2 Co 13:5 to "examine yourselves, how that Christ is in you".

And I will talk a bit about regeneration. Spiritual regeneration (being born-again) is a crisis situation. It does not take place in a nice ceremony with candles and is not pre-planned. A radical spiritual exchange has taken place in the individual who is regenerated. When you exchange your present "life" which was dead in trespasses and sins for spiritual life, His life, this is a radical change and a person will know it. It is preposterous to think otherwise. Jesus said 'I came that you might have life and have it more abundantly" (John 10:10). He further explained, "I am the way, the truth and the life" (John 14:6). Paul states that we have been "raised to newness of life" (Romans 6:4), wherein "Christ is our life" (Colossians 3:4). The apostle John writes, "we have passed out of death into life" (I John 3:14); "he that has the Son has life; he that does not have the Son of God has not life" (I John 5:12). The spirit of the Christian is alive (Romans 8:10) with the life of Jesus Christ.

When one's spirit which is dead in trespasses and sins is now alive with the life of Jesus Christ, this is something that the imagination cannot concoct or sustain for a few years let alone 30.

When I was an unregenerate person I was spiritually dead. It was kind of an inactive condition, there was no spiritual activity. I was non-functional and had a spiritual vacuum or void in me. I was dwelling and walking in death and death is simply the deprivation of life. So, now imagine if you will what kind of crisis situation regeneration is. Spiritual life replacing death! Pretty radical and not something that anyone is sure to miss.

So, "getting saved", is not walking the aisle and getting your ticket punched and then going back and doing the same things you were always doing before.

I'll have more but we are having our meeting at my house tomorrow and it's late and I need to get back to cleaning up the house and getting things in order.

Good night,
Rick



Hey there Rick,

I appreciate and understand where you are coming from, but I still don't see how you can escape the fundamentally subjective nature of "religious conversion." On the contrary, the verses you cited actually emphasize its subjective nature. There's no way for a person to know if the "witness" within themselves is authentic or imaginary. Case in point: My faith experience every bit as authentic as any Christian who has ever walked this planet. Your assertion that "When one's spirit which is dead in trespasses and sins is now alive with the life of Jesus Christ, this is something that the imagination cannot concoct or sustain for a few years let alone 30" has no foundation in objective fact. I have no reason to doubt that a person could remain trapped in a false ideology that they interpret as "new life in Christ" for 30 years. On the contrary, I EXPECT people who have converted to a religion to stay in it - that's how religions work. They have strong social networks that strongly discourage free thought, doubt, questions, etc.

So I still think you have not answered the "big question" - How does a person discern whether or not they have a relationship with a real rather than imaginary Jesus?

All the best,

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Thirty years is a long time to be a Christian and walk with God. Did He ever answer any of your prayers? It's difficult to understand how one could be a Christian for 30 years and not understand regeneration. If you never realized you were in a "box" for 30 years, how do you know you are not in another box even though you are happy? I'm sure there were times as a Christian you were happy, too. What was it like having Christ indwell you by His Spirit?

All the best,
Rick
Hey there Rick,

It is not a matter of failing to "understand" regeneration. We understand that concept very well. The point is that what was understood as "regeneration" from a Christian perspective is now understood as a psychological aspect of religious conversion.

And yes, there were a number of events that we interpreted as "answered prayers." But you know the reality - there is no way to prove if something was an "answered prayer" or a mere coincidence. And after much reflection I finally came to realize that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. We all know this is true. Whether or not God answers an occasional prayer cannot be proven true or false, but it is very easy to disprove the idea that God answers prayers with any kind of regularity. If he did, there would be a objectively verifiable distinction between authentic Christians and everyone else and you could have settled this debate with ease.

The truth is simple. Christians have developed a theory of prayer in which God is supposed to answer "Yes, No, or Wait." This is a very common teaching amongst Christians that was designed to mask over the fact that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. If put to the test, you would get exactly the same result by praying to a milk jug:


http://youtu.be/jk6ILZAaAMI


Now you ask "What was it like having Christ indwell you by His Spirit?" I think that is a very good question. As far as I can tell, it was exactly like what you think you experience by "having Christ indwell you by His Spirit." I felt that the Bible was alive and that God spoke through it to me. But now I interpret the same events from a different perspective.

All the best,

Richard