God is seen exactly as he desires to be seen.

[gregoryfl]

I have so hesitated, yet wanted, to write concerning the various things that have been posted here about whether scripture should be trusted in light of how God is portrayed there. I have decided, perhaps against my better judgment, to share my thoughts. I hesitated simply because I do not have the ability to share controversial things and actually have continuous dialogue. More importantly, I know that no matter what is said, one will only change when they begin to doubt, to see the need for possible change. So I have had to clear my mind from any attempts to change anyone's perception here.

Having said that, I would like to pursue what has become, over time, my own convictions concerning the atrocities we see in scripture, and the God who is behind them. I am not a Christian, meaning that I do not subscribe to any of the religions calling themselves by that name. I am a believer in our Creator, and in his Son, and because of his Son. Nothing more, nothing less.

I hope to keep my discussion with anyone as brief as possible and to the point. I will do my best and ask that you do the same.

Here is my basic premise:

I believe that God is behind everything that has taken place in his creation. He is responsible for everything, good and evil. The things pictured in scripture, with credit being given to God, I believe to be accurate. I cannot fully explain why he has chosen this course, although I can share what I currently think on the matter. I also believe that, his being seen in the various ways he is, is all for a reason, and that every single evil produced, every atrocity, every injustice, in this life, is a lesson he is orchestrating for a much greater good, one that I believe Richard and his wife, and others, are seeing glimpses of now, and will see fully in the future.

Ronen

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I have so hesitated, yet wanted, to write concerning the various things that have been posted here about whether scripture should be trusted in light of how God is portrayed there. I have decided, perhaps against my better judgment, to share my thoughts. I hesitated simply because I do not have the ability to share controversial things and actually have continuous dialogue. More importantly, I know that no matter what is said, one will only change when they begin to doubt, to see the need for possible change. So I have had to clear my mind from any attempts to change anyone's perception here.

Having said that, I would like to pursue what has become, over time, my own convictions concerning the atrocities we see in scripture, and the God who is behind them. I am not a Christian, meaning that I do not subscribe to any of the religions calling themselves by that name. I am a believer in our Creator, and in his Son, and because of his Son. Nothing more, nothing less.

I hope to keep my discussion with anyone as brief as possible and to the point. I will do my best and ask that you do the same.

Here is my basic premise:

I believe that God is behind everything that has taken place in his creation. He is responsible for everything, good and evil. The things pictured in scripture, with credit being given to God, I believe to be accurate. I cannot fully explain why he has chosen this course, although I can share what I currently think on the matter. I also believe that, his being seen in the various ways he is, is all for a reason, and that every single evil produced, every atrocity, every injustice, in this life, is a lesson he is orchestrating for a much greater good, one that I believe Richard and his wife, and others, are seeing glimpses of now, and will see fully in the future.

Ronen
Hi Ron!

I'm really glad you took a little time to comment. We had some great conversations in the past. I'm gonna reflect a little on what you wrote before commenting. Just wanted to say "hi."

Richard

[Rose]

I have so hesitated, yet wanted, to write concerning the various things that have been posted here about whether scripture should be trusted in light of how God is portrayed there. I have decided, perhaps against my better judgment, to share my thoughts. I hesitated simply because I do not have the ability to share controversial things and actually have continuous dialogue. More importantly, I know that no matter what is said, one will only change when they begin to doubt, to see the need for possible change. So I have had to clear my mind from any attempts to change anyone's perception here.

Having said that, I would like to pursue what has become, over time, my own convictions concerning the atrocities we see in scripture, and the God who is behind them. I am not a Christian, meaning that I do not subscribe to any of the religions calling themselves by that name. I am a believer in our Creator, and in his Son, and because of his Son. Nothing more, nothing less.

I hope to keep my discussion with anyone as brief as possible and to the point. I will do my best and ask that you do the same.

Here is my basic premise:

I believe that God is behind everything that has taken place in his creation. He is responsible for everything, good and evil. The things pictured in scripture, with credit being given to God, I believe to be accurate. I cannot fully explain why he has chosen this course, although I can share what I currently think on the matter. I also believe that, his being seen in the various ways he is, is all for a reason, and that every single evil produced, every atrocity, every injustice, in this life, is a lesson he is orchestrating for a much greater good, one that I believe Richard and his wife, and others, are seeing glimpses of now, and will see fully in the future.

Ronen

Hi Ronen,

So glad that you stopped in for a visit. :yo:

I can understand why you would believe a creator is responsible for all that is, but what I wonder is why you would choose the identity of that creator to be Yahweh?

The biggest revelation that I have received as a result of my search for truth, is that there is no possible way that the tribal war god portrayed in the Bible could be the creator of all things. Yahweh is far too primitive, and reflective of a power hungry, pagan warrior to be the mastermind behind the universe. He gets caught up in the petty gender struggles that are so common among the male population, who are constantly trying to prove their masculine superiority to women. Male bias is not something one would expect from a omnipotent creator, especially since the rest of life is gender equal.

All the best,
Rose

[gregoryfl]

Thank you Richard and Rose, for the acknowledgments.

Thank you for your question Rose. As to why I choose YHWH as the creator of all that we experience, both good and evil, I do so because I see the men and women of scripture doing the same. I also see YHWH being recorded by the writers as admitting to the same. I could start to rattle off my list of scriptures trying to prove my point, but as I mentioned, I wish to keep this as brief and succinct as possible to make things easier to focus on. I can share a bit more with scripture if you would like.

shalom,

Ronen

[Rose]

Thank you Richard and Rose, for the acknowledgments.

Thank you for your question Rose. As to why I choose YHWH as the creator of all that we experience, both good and evil, I do so because I see the men and women of scripture doing the same. I also see YHWH being recorded by the writers as admitting to the same. I could start to rattle off my list of scriptures trying to prove my point, but as I mentioned, I wish to keep this as brief and succinct as possible to make things easier to focus on. I can share a bit more with scripture if you would like.

shalom,

Ronen

Hi Ronen,

Thanks for your response, but it seems a bit circular. Isn't it expected that the characters portrayed in the Bible would be choosing Yahweh if they believed in him and rejecting him if they don't? One can see the same thing happening in other religious works like the Koran, whose characters are totally supportive of Allah. Rattling off lists of Scripture really doesn't help either, because they too are all contained in the book that one is trying to prove.

When you take a close look at Yahweh, doesn't he seem reflective of the culture that he arose out of? Many of his qualities and attributes are identical to those of other gods from the same time period, in fact El was one member of the council of gods of the Canaanites dating back to about 2300 BC, he was also called the father of humankind.

I hope you choose to continue this conversation, because I find it extremely interesting. :thumb:

Rose

[gregoryfl]

You asked if it seemed reasonable that characters of the Bible would be choosing Yahweh if they believed in him and rejecting him if they don't. It is not only reasonable, but exactly what he desires. The very idea of belief, or faith, is to support, such as is found in the very first use of the word in scripture, where Moses' arms were supported (the Hebrew word used for faith). That is at least a part of this lesson he is teaching all humanity. He is orchestrating history to show himself exactly as he purposes, for those who see his actions and reject him (temporarily) there is purpose in that (a purpose far beyond my ability to fully comprehend). For those who, like myself, see the evil and yet believe in him, and acknowledge him in it, there are lessons I am learning as well. For ones like yourself, who cannot see the true creator as having anything to do with all of the evils in this word, that it is a product of man's imagination, I too, see our Father using that to teach valuable lessons.

From the garden of Eden, men and women have seen what a mind that has lost it's identity, of its connectedness, it's oneness, with it's Maker. In and through various means, He is demonstrating to us that man who sees himself as separate will act accordingly, and Father allows himself to be seen as such. For those who through revelation come more fully into the understanding that we are indeed all connected, come into the place, or state, where Father is leading us, to acknowledge him in all things.

Sorry I tried to keep this short, but hopefully it is concise enough.

Shalom my sister :)

Ronen

[gregoryfl]

Hi Ronen,

When you take a close look at Yahweh, doesn't he seem reflective of the culture that he arose out of? Many of his qualities and attributes are identical to those of other gods from the same time period, in fact El was one member of the council of gods of the Canaanites dating back to about 2300 BC, he was also called the father of humankind.

Rose

Yes, I believe he is indeed seen in that light, and also portrayed himself in that light, as hard as it is for me to believe at time, but again, all for a greater purpose of the ultimate good.

Although it pales in comparison, the story of Joseph I believe God orchestrated, and in particular, the way in which his brothers were reconciled to him, to demonstrate on a tiny scale what he is doing in this world, how is portrays himself, and the reasons for it.

Thank you for your thoughts,

Ronen

[Rose]

You asked if it seemed reasonable that characters of the Bible would be choosing Yahweh if they believed in him and rejecting him if they don't. It is not only reasonable, but exactly what he desires. The very idea of belief, or faith, is to support, such as is found in the very first use of the word in scripture, where Moses' arms were supported (the Hebrew word used for faith). That is at least a part of this lesson he is teaching all humanity. He is orchestrating history to show himself exactly as he purposes, for those who see his actions and reject him (temporarily) there is purpose in that (a purpose far beyond my ability to fully comprehend). For those who, like myself, see the evil and yet believe in him, and acknowledge him in it, there are lessons I am learning as well. For ones like yourself, who cannot see the true creator as having anything to do with all of the evils in this word, that it is a product of man's imagination, I too, see our Father using that to teach valuable lessons.

From the garden of Eden, men and women have seen what a mind that has lost it's identity, of its connectedness, it's oneness, with it's Maker. In and through various means, He is demonstrating to us that man who sees himself as separate will act accordingly, and Father allows himself to be seen as such. For those who through revelation come more fully into the understanding that we are indeed all connected, come into the place, or state, where Father is leading us, to acknowledge him in all things.

Sorry I tried to keep this short, but hopefully it is concise enough.

Shalom my sister :)

Ronen

Hi Ronen,

Sorry to be so persistant on this one point, but you still haven't really answered my initial question which was: why do you choose to believe in Yahweh as being the god who created the universe instead of some other deity?

All we have is one collection of books, written by one race of people, over the span of maybe a thousand years, and then silence. Consequently, Yahweh only reflects the mentality of the time period in which he was written about...which looks pretty "man made" to me.:winking0071:

I appreciate your time and thoughts,
Rose

[gregoryfl]

shalom Rose,

Why do I choose to believe in YHWH rather than some other diety? For one thing, my circumstances, my upbringing. I was raised in a 'Christian' home, and so naturally that is the religion I gravitated toward. I have had a few years of turning away from it all, embracing the idea of no God, because of my struggle in seeing what I thought was an ideal of his, that I could not see in my own life. I have since been brought back to him with a totally different perspective of who he is.

Of late, the changes I have made with regard to my beliefs now, that are not within the confines of the Christian orthodoxy, have been based on my study of the Hebrew language and the analysis of it as I am translating. I would also say that, despite its problems, despite man's hand in it, when I consider such things as the Bible Wheel, and the spiritual lessons I am learning just by looking at the Hebrew letters making up the words, give me reason to believe also that God has managed to oversee the production of a set of writings that bear a supernatural signature. All the intricacies that Richard and others here have seen, pertaining to the Bible Wheel, and those things I am seeing in the Hebrew language, lead me to see there is something more than meets the eye. For me, when I read of the history of how God acts in this world, and of people's reactions toward him, to me it now makes sense. I can only speak of myself, not anyone else.

Even if there were no scriptures, no writings, and he decided to reveal his character and purposes in some other way, I would still accept him as the one who is responsible for all that is, for his name is tied in with the very meaning of the word 'exist'.

Ronen

[Rose]

shalom Rose,

Why do I choose to believe in YHWH rather than some other diety? For one thing, my circumstances, my upbringing. I was raised in a 'Christian' home, and so naturally that is the religion I gravitated toward. I have had a few years of turning away from it all, embracing the idea of no God, because of my struggle in seeing what I thought was an ideal of his, that I could not see in my own life. I have since been brought back to him with a totally different perspective of who he is.

Of late, the changes I have made with regard to my beliefs now, that are not within the confines of the Christian orthodoxy, have been based on my study of the Hebrew language and the analysis of it as I am translating. I would also say that, despite its problems, despite man's hand in it, when I consider such things as the Bible Wheel, and the spiritual lessons I am learning just by looking at the Hebrew letters making up the words, give me reason to believe also that God has managed to oversee the production of a set of writings that bear a supernatural signature. All the intricacies that Richard and others here have seen, pertaining to the Bible Wheel, and those things I am seeing in the Hebrew language, lead me to see there is something more than meets the eye. For me, when I read of the history of how God acts in this world, and of people's reactions toward him, to me it now makes sense. I can only speak of myself, not anyone else.

Even if there were no scriptures, no writings, and he decided to reveal his character and purposes in some other way, I would still accept him as the one who is responsible for all that is, for his name is tied in with the very meaning of the word 'exist'.

Ronen

Hey Ronen, :yo: Thanks for your response.

Before the Bible Wheel came along about 10 years ago I was what one might call a mediocre Christian; Church on Sunday and Bible Studies. Then Richard came along and rolled me over with his Bible Wheel...:D after that I plunged into an in-depth study of the Bible. For eight years I was totally immersed in helping Richard with his work on presenting the Bible Wheel as a symbol of God's supernatural design manifest in Scripture, convincing me more than ever that the Bible was the "Word of God". Then two years ago, what was to be the starting point for a completely unexpected journey began, when I allowed myself the freedom to follow my heart. That decision was to change the course of what had been my life's path for the last 30 years; with each new stepping stone I allowed myself to walk upon seeking answers, I found I was on a path leading in an entirely new direction. Step by step everything I once believed about the Bible fell away, being replace by a different reality, it was like seeing the box I was in from the outside, instead of from the inside.

The Bible Wheel still remains a mystery, its patterns are as solid as ever...what has changed is my understanding of how its design came into being. There is no conceivable way I can now attribute the patterns of the Bible manifest in the design of the Bible Wheel, to be authored by its god called Yahweh. So, my search continues...it has already lead me to many wonderful and unexpected places...

I am enjoying very much talking with you,
Rose

[gregoryfl]

Shalom Rose,

One of the things I have observed in this stage of your journey is a greater awareness of our intimate connection with all that exists, including the one who made us. Although we may differ on some of the details of that oneness, I believe it to be one of the most important realities our Father is revealing to us. As far as I can tell, 99 percent of all spiritual beliefs all centers around the illusion of separation. People have searched for eons, trying all kinds of ways to get close to God, or to remain close. Sincere as it may be, we can see all the horrible effects of living in that false reality of separation. I can also see it in how God portrayed himself to his people Israel, and the horrible results that came from it.

In all of that however, I believe we are seeing, by contrast, how beautiful and amazing the true reality is, for as we learn now to live out of that reality of oneness with our Father, we find that it so drastically affects in a positive way, how we treat each other. As hard as it may be for most to believe, the main reason I see this as I do is because of seeing it more and more plainly in the scripture. It functions for me as simply a witness to what we already have inside of us, waiting to be revealed.

Ronen

[Rose]

Shalom Rose,

One of the things I have observed in this stage of your journey is a greater awareness of our intimate connection with all that exists, including the one who made us. Although we may differ on some of the details of that oneness, I believe it to be one of the most important realities our Father is revealing to us. As far as I can tell, 99 percent of all spiritual beliefs all centers around the illusion of separation. People have searched for eons, trying all kinds of ways to get close to God, or to remain close. Sincere as it may be, we can see all the horrible effects of living in that false reality of separation. I can also see it in how God portrayed himself to his people Israel, and the horrible results that came from it.

In all of that however, I believe we are seeing, by contrast, how beautiful and amazing the true reality is, for as we learn now to live out of that reality of oneness with our Father, we find that it so drastically affects in a positive way, how we treat each other. As hard as it may be for most to believe, the main reason I see this as I do is because of seeing it more and more plainly in the scripture. It functions for me as simply a witness to what we already have inside of us, waiting to be revealed.

Ronen

Hi Ronen, :yo:

I absolutely agree, the understanding that each one of us is a unique part of the whole is the most important realization we can have. True reality is knowing that whatever way we treat others directly reflects who we are. Walking in love, compassion and empathy is allowing the oneness of universal consciousness to be expressed through our human experience.

Much peace to you my brother,
Rose

[gregoryfl]

I guess this thread has run its course. Thank you Rose, for acknowledging and sharing. I will continue to check back in once in a while as I have been. If anyone wishes to pursue this aspect I have presented, feel free.

Ronen

[Richard Amiel McGough]

shalom Rose,

Why do I choose to believe in YHWH rather than some other diety? For one thing, my circumstances, my upbringing. I was raised in a 'Christian' home, and so naturally that is the religion I gravitated toward. I have had a few years of turning away from it all, embracing the idea of no God, because of my struggle in seeing what I thought was an ideal of his, that I could not see in my own life. I have since been brought back to him with a totally different perspective of who he is.

Of late, the changes I have made with regard to my beliefs now, that are not within the confines of the Christian orthodoxy, have been based on my study of the Hebrew language and the analysis of it as I am translating. I would also say that, despite its problems, despite man's hand in it, when I consider such things as the Bible Wheel, and the spiritual lessons I am learning just by looking at the Hebrew letters making up the words, give me reason to believe also that God has managed to oversee the production of a set of writings that bear a supernatural signature. All the intricacies that Richard and others here have seen, pertaining to the Bible Wheel, and those things I am seeing in the Hebrew language, lead me to see there is something more than meets the eye. For me, when I read of the history of how God acts in this world, and of people's reactions toward him, to me it now makes sense. I can only speak of myself, not anyone else.

Even if there were no scriptures, no writings, and he decided to reveal his character and purposes in some other way, I would still accept him as the one who is responsible for all that is, for his name is tied in with the very meaning of the word 'exist'.

Ronen
Hey there Ronen, :yo:

Sorry for the slow response.

As one who spent years immersed in the "amazing" aspects of Bible study, I can relate to where you are at. I find it fascinating that you, like every other member of this forum as far as I can tell, do not adhere to "Christian orthodoxy." Just to mention two: Rick has written much about how the churches have gotten it all wrong, and David M rejects much that is taken as orthodox (e.g. Trinity, Sabbath keeping, hell, etc.). I think this forum played an essential role in my rejection of Christianity. After years of participating in debates about everything in the Bible, I finally realized that there is no "orthodoxy" worth keeping. Orthodoxy is a purely man-made concept. We have nothing to go on but private intepreatations. And the problems with the Bible are such that you must either accept them without any reason or rationality, or reject them with plenty of good solid reasons. I chose the path of reason, truth, facts, logic, light, and goodness. This means that I also admit that there are lots of good things in the Bible. Things like "God is light" and "God is love" and the Golden Rule. But that is no reaons to accept the genocide, male bias, exclusivity, doctrine of hell, or any of the other myriad problems.

The name Yahweh is indeed tied to the word for "being." That used to seem very significant to me. But I can't appreciate that philosophical aspect much anymore since I can't see past the genocide and other irrational aspects of the stories about Yahweh. Most of the OT presents him as a Bronze age tribal war god, and I simply can't believe in that stuff.

The solution? I just take the Hebraic insight that "God" is related to the "Ground of Being" and say "Thanks!" and move on.

All the best,

Richard