The Promised Land

[Rose]

When one reads the biblical history of how the Hebrews acquired the Promised Land it’s a pretty abysmal account of murder and theft. According to the Bible, Yahweh chose Moses to be the one he would use to lead the Hebrews into the Promised Land that he swore to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The main problem with Yahweh giving this land to the Hebrews was that it was already occupied by many different peoples. So, in order for the Hebrews to be able to occupy this land they had to first kill all the people and then take their property and goods.

Yahweh said he would deliver the peoples living in these lands unto the Hebrew’s and they were to utterly destroy them all, showing NO mercy unto them. Not only does Yahweh command that the Hebrews mercilessly kill these people and take their land, but he gloats over the fact that they will be given cities which they didn’t have to build, houses full of goods that they didn’t have to buy, vineyards and olives trees they didn’t have to plant and wells they didn’t have to dig! I don’t know about you, but for me it’s one of the worst accounts of human rights violations I can think of.

Deut.1:3 And it came to pass in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first day of the month, that Moses spake unto the children of Israel, according unto all that the LORD had given him in commandment unto them;

Deut.6:1 Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it: …10) And it shall be, when the LORD thy God shall have brought thee into the land which he sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give thee great and goodly cities, which thou buildedst not, And houses full of all good things, which thou filledst not, and wells digged, which thou diggedst not, vineyards and olive trees, which thou plantedst not; when thou shalt have eaten and be full;

Deut.7:1-2 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:




To sum things up here is a list of the violations of the Ten Commandments that occurred during the occupation of the Promised Land.



Killing people solely for the reason of taking their land and goods.
Stealing people’s land and goods.
Coveting their neighbor’s property and goods.


Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

When one reads the biblical history of how the Hebrews acquired the Promised Land it’s a pretty abysmal account of murder and theft. According to the Bible, Yahweh chose Moses to be the one he would use to lead the Hebrews into the Promised Land that he swore to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The main problem with Yahweh giving this land to the Hebrews was that it was already occupied by many different peoples. So, in order for the Hebrews to be able to occupy this land they had to first kill all the people and then take their property and goods.

Yahweh said he would deliver the peoples living in these lands unto the Hebrew’s and they were to utterly destroy them all, showing NO mercy unto them. Not only does Yahweh command that the Hebrews mercilessly kill other people and take their land, but he gloats over the fact that they will be given cities which they didn’t have to build, houses full of goods that they didn’t have to buy, vineyards and olives trees they didn’t have to plant and wells they didn’t have to dig! I don’t know about you, but for me it’s one of the worst accounts of human rights violations I can think of.

Deut.1:3 And it came to pass in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first day of the month, that Moses spake unto the children of Israel, according unto all that the LORD had given him in commandment unto them;

Deut.6:1 Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it: …10) And it shall be, when the LORD thy God shall have brought thee into the land which he sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give thee great and goodly cities, which thou buildedst not, And houses full of all good things, which thou filledst not, and wells digged, which thou diggedst not, vineyards and olive trees, which thou plantedst not; when thou shalt have eaten and be full;

Deut.7:1-2 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:




To sum things up here is a list of the violations of the Ten Commandments that occurred during the occupation of the Promised Land.



Killing people solely for the reason of taking their land and goods.
Stealing people’s land and goods.
Coveting their neighbor’s property and goods.


Rose

I must admit that even when I was a fervent Christian, I was profoundly disturbed by those passages and the obvious implications. Yahweh sounds just like a Bronze age tribal war god. He certainly was not teaching His people good morals when he gave these commands.

As for "no mercy" - that reminds me of the villain in the Karate Kid:


http://youtu.be/4kr24G8jQpM

[Rose]

I must admit that even when I was a fervent Christian, I was profoundly disturbed by those passages and the obvious implications. Yahweh sounds just like a Bronze age tribal war god. He certainly was not teaching His people good morals when he gave these commands.

As for "no mercy" - that reminds me of the villain in the Karate Kid:


http://youtu.be/4kr24G8jQpM

Far from not teaching them good morals, Yahweh was actually instructing Moses to explicitly go against three of the Ten Commandment he had given them on Mt. Sinai!

It has always struck me as strange that Christians never bring up the fact that in order for Yahweh to give the Hebrews their Promised Land he had to kill its inhabitants and then steal their goods...how pathetic is that?

Rose

[David M]

Hello Rose

I think your repeated claim is getting tedious, even that of Richard supporting you. It is your forum so you can say what you like. You are taking different angles to make the same claim. Your threads keep plugging away at Moses and God, who you consider as unjust and immoral. Admittedly, you have quoted some new verses in this thread. You have received answers already in other threads countering your argument and the same answers we can expect again.

I think we have the got the message. Anyone coming to this forum will get your message from the numerous threads you have posted. This could become so tedious I am thinking of moving on. I do not want to keep repeating myself and eventually I will stop when I have said enough; that time might be soon.

This is a good forum, I appreciate the opportunity to state my case as much as anyone else, the number of different boards,topics, subjects on this forum make it a valuable resource. Despite the new title to this thread, your message is still the same, I am disappointed to keep reading the same message from you. You have not learnt the lesson Job had to learn, until you do, you are not going to change.

Anyway, I shall continue to answer replies to the threads I have started, until they have run their course and then I shall decide whether to continue or not. Maybe I shall continue to come and look after your repeated claim has stopped; that might be never, who knows?

Best regards
David

[CWH]

When one reads the biblical history of how the Hebrews acquired the Promised Land it’s a pretty abysmal account of murder and theft. According to the Bible, Yahweh chose Moses to be the one he would use to lead the Hebrews into the Promised Land that he swore to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The main problem with Yahweh giving this land to the Hebrews was that it was already occupied by many different peoples. So, in order for the Hebrews to be able to occupy this land they had to first kill all the people and then take their property and goods.

Yahweh said he would deliver the peoples living in these lands unto the Hebrew’s and they were to utterly destroy them all, showing NO mercy unto them. Not only does Yahweh command that the Hebrews mercilessly kill these people and take their land, but he gloats over the fact that they will be given cities which they didn’t have to build, houses full of goods that they didn’t have to buy, vineyards and olives trees they didn’t have to plant and wells they didn’t have to dig! I don’t know about you, but for me it’s one of the worst accounts of human rights violations I can think of.
Deut.1:3 And it came to pass in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first [I]day of the month, that Moses spake unto the children of Israel, according unto all that the LORD had given him in commandment unto them;

To sum things up here is a list of the violations of the Ten Commandments that occurred during the occupation of the Promised Land.


Killing people solely for the reason of taking their land and goods.
Stealing people’s land and goods.
Coveting their neighbor’s property and goods.


Rose

Didn't Hitler, Napoleon and many others did the same? Didn't colonists such as the Britishm Spaniards, Portuguese, Dutch and even Americans did the same to the locals by:


Killing people solely for the reason of taking their land and goods.
Stealing people’s land and goods.
Coveting their neighbor’s property and goods.


People are not going to give up their lands and properties so easily as evidenced by the colonial era. So how else were the colonists to occupy their lands and properties except to conquer them? I am not saying that colonialism is entirely bad; they did brought progress and modernization in otherwise backward countries and at the same time relieving the pressures of resources that they need from their colonies in order to maintain their economic and industrial progress. The end of WW2 causes changes for the better.... more world co-operation in maintaining peace and progress etc. Same with God, the destruction of evil people with their evil ways of life brought about better progress and lesser evil. Yes, the Americans took away the lands and properties of the Red Indians but didn't that brought about better progress and better way of life? Didn't that brought about modernization, abolishment of slavery, better human rights, better laws and order?


God Blessed Us. :pray:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hello Rose

I think your repeated claim is getting tedious, even that of Richard supporting you. It is your forum so you can say what you like. You are taking different angles to make the same claim. Your threads keep plugging away at Moses and God, who you consider as unjust and immoral. Admittedly, you have quoted some new verses in this thread. You have received answers already in other threads countering your argument and the same answers we can expect again.

I think we have the got the message. Anyone coming to this forum will get your message from the numerous threads you have posted. This could become so tedious I am thinking of moving on. I do not want to keep repeating myself and eventually I will stop when I have said enough; that time might be soon.

This is a good forum, I appreciate the opportunity to state my case as much as anyone else, the number of different boards,topics, subjects on this forum make it a valuable resource. Despite the new title to this thread, your message is still the same, I am disappointed to keep reading the same message from you. You have not learnt the lesson Job had to learn, until you do, you are not going to change.

Anyway, I shall continue to answer replies to the threads I have started, until they have run their course and then I shall decide whether to continue or not. Maybe I shall continue to come and look after your repeated claim has stopped; that might be never, who knows?

Best regards
David
Hi David,

I understand your frustration. Most folks don't like having their ideas constantly challenged. And that is a big problem with the internet. Many folks filter out all opposing views, and visit sites that only reinforce their personal prejudices. The internet then becomes a prison for their minds when it could have been the greatest souce of new information that would open thier minds. So I admire your perseverence. And remember, there are thousands of "lurkers" who are watching our discussions. So if your arguments are TRUE the truth will be seen by those watching. So I sincerely hope you do not give up in frustration. Your contributions are very valuable.

Now as for your assertion that I have "received answers already in other threads countering your argument and the same answers we can expect again." It is true that I "received answers" in many cases, but the answers did not come close to refuting the points I made. If you disagree, it is very simple to show my error. That's what I did with your answers! So there is no need for frustration. I am a reasonable man, and you have full freedom to make your case. I hope you will continue.

All the best,

Richard

[Rose]

Hello Rose

I think your repeated claim is getting tedious, even that of Richard supporting you. It is your forum so you can say what you like. You are taking different angles to make the same claim. Your threads keep plugging away at Moses and God, who you consider as unjust and immoral. Admittedly, you have quoted some new verses in this thread. You have received answers already in other threads countering your argument and the same answers we can expect again.

I think we have the got the message. Anyone coming to this forum will get your message from the numerous threads you have posted. This could become so tedious I am thinking of moving on. I do not want to keep repeating myself and eventually I will stop when I have said enough; that time might be soon.

This is a good forum, I appreciate the opportunity to state my case as much as anyone else, the number of different boards,topics, subjects on this forum make it a valuable resource. Despite the new title to this thread, your message is still the same, I am disappointed to keep reading the same message from you. You have not learnt the lesson Job had to learn, until you do, you are not going to change.

Anyway, I shall continue to answer replies to the threads I have started, until they have run their course and then I shall decide whether to continue or not. Maybe I shall continue to come and look after your repeated claim has stopped; that might be never, who knows?

Best regards
David

Good morning David :yo:

I appreciate your discussions on the threads I've started. :thumb: Yes, I have received arguments countering my points, but so far they have been extremely weak...that is why I keep repeating my claims from different angles, hoping someone will acknowledge the truth instead of continually trying to defend and justify God's immoral behavior.

It is so obvious from all the points I have raised that the Bible is a book of human construction, otherwise what we have is a totally male-biased tribal war god who created the universe...doesn't seem likely.

I'm sorry for your disappointment, but human rights violations are wrong and as long as I find them in the Bible commanded, and condoned by its God I'm going to keep speaking out. If women and slaves had kept quiet about the wrongs being done to them, they would still be denied their freedoms.

Hope you continue,
Rose

[Rose]

Didn't Hitler, Napoleon and many others did the same? Didn't colonists such as the Britishm Spaniards, Portuguese, Dutch and even Americans did the same to the locals by:


Killing people solely for the reason of taking their land and goods.
Stealing people’s land and goods.
Coveting their neighbor’s property and goods.


People are not going to give up their lands and properties so easily as evidenced by the colonial era. So how else were the colonists to occupy their lands and properties except to conquer them? I am not saying that colonialism is entirely bad; they did brought progress and modernization in otherwise backward countries and at the same time relieving the pressures of resources that they need from their colonies in order to maintain their economic and industrial progress. The end of WW2 causes changes for the better.... more world co-operation in maintaining peace and progress etc. Same with God, the destruction of evil people with their evil ways of life brought about better progress and lesser evil. Yes, the Americans took away the lands and properties of the Red Indians but didn't that brought about better progress and better way of life? Didn't that brought about modernization, abolishment of slavery, better human rights, better laws and order?


God Blessed Us. :pray:

What's up with you Cheow? Why are you comparing the immoral atrocities of Hitler, Napoleon and the like with God? Or maybe these guys were taking there morals from God!

The inhabitants of the Promised Land were not destroyed because they were evil, but because they were occupying the land that Yahweh wanted to give the Hebrews! So, because Yahweh wanted to give the land that belonged to someone else to the Hebrews it was okay to break three of his own commandments...what's up with that?

Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

When one reads the biblical history of how the Hebrews acquired the Promised Land it’s a pretty abysmal account of murder and theft. According to the Bible, Yahweh chose Moses to be the one he would use to lead the Hebrews into the Promised Land that he swore to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The main problem with Yahweh giving this land to the Hebrews was that it was already occupied by many different peoples. So, in order for the Hebrews to be able to occupy this land they had to first kill all the people and then take their property and goods.

Yahweh said he would deliver the peoples living in these lands unto the Hebrew’s and they were to utterly destroy them all, showing NO mercy unto them. Not only does Yahweh command that the Hebrews mercilessly kill these people and take their land, but he gloats over the fact that they will be given cities which they didn’t have to build, houses full of goods that they didn’t have to buy, vineyards and olives trees they didn’t have to plant and wells they didn’t have to dig! I don’t know about you, but for me it’s one of the worst accounts of human rights violations I can think of.Deut.1:3 And it came to pass in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first [I]day of the month, that Moses spake unto the children of Israel, according unto all that the LORD had given him in commandment unto them;

To sum things up here is a list of the violations of the Ten Commandments that occurred during the occupation of the Promised Land.


Killing people solely for the reason of taking their land and goods.
Stealing people’s land and goods.
Coveting their neighbor’s property and goods.


Rose
Didn't Hitler, Napoleon and many others did the same?

You know Christians have hit rock bottom when they try to justify God by comparing him to the worst dictators in human history.

[CWH]

You know Christians have hit rock bottom when they try to justify God by comparing him to the worst dictators in human history.

Please answer my questions:
Didn't American settlers did the same with the Red Indians? And currently many Americans were descendants of those that killed the Red Indians and occupied their lands and properties? Were they equally worst than the worst dictators in human history? If they did not killed off the Red Indians, how do you expect them to get the lands of the Red Indians? Did the surviving Red Indians benefited from such changes in their way of life by adopting to the American culture, administrative, industrial and scientific advances?

God Blessed.:pray:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Please answer my questions:
Didn't American settlers did the same with the Red Indians? And currently many Americans were descendants of those that killed the Red Indians and occupied their lands and properties? Were they equally worst than the worst dictators in human history? If they did not killed off the Red Indians, how do you expect them to get the lands of the Red Indians? Did the surviving Red Indians benefited from such changes in their way of life by adopting to the American culture, administrative, industrial and scientific advances?

God Blessed.:pray:
Yes, American settlers committed moral atrocities against the Native Americans. Their actions were evil, just like the actions attributed to God in the Bible.

The descendents are not responsible for the actions of their ancestors.

I do not "expect them" to steal the lands of the natives. That's just a historical fact, and a profoundly regretable one. It is wrong to murder people and steal their land. I am stunned that I need to explain this to a Christian.

[CWH]

Yes, American settlers committed moral atrocities against the Native Americans. Their actions were evil, just like the actions attributed to God in the Bible.

The descendents are not responsible for the actions of their ancestors.

I do not "expect them" to steal the lands of the natives. That's just a historical fact, and a profoundly regretable one. It is wrong to murder people and steal their land. I am stunned that I need to explain this to a Christian.

If the American settlers did not steal the land from the Red Indians, will America be formed to become a great nation as of today? If so, was it regretable that they committed moral atrocities by getting the land from the Red Indians by force? Without America, would WW1 and WW2 be won? Without America would the world progress so fast in scientific, technological and economic advances?

God Blessings for all.:pray:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

If the American settlers did not steal the land from the Red Indians, will America be formed to become a great nation as of today? If so, was it regretable that they committed moral atrocities by getting the land from the Red Indians by force? Without America, would WW1 and WW2 be won? Without America would the world progress so fast in scientific, technological and economic advances?

God Blessings for all.:pray:
History could have taken a million different courses, and we could have arrived at a civilization a thousand times more advanced than what we got through war, murder, thievery, rape, and all the other crimes.

Again, I am stunned that a Christian fails to understand these elementary moral facts.

[David M]

The inhabitants of the Promised Land were not destroyed because they were evil

Hello Rose
I have not given up entirely, especially when I see you make a statement like you have above which I have to refute. Of course the people were evil; they practiced idolatry and God hated that (and all the evil practices which went with that form of worship). Idolatry was an abomination to God. I do not know why you do not agree with this. Was every single person in the Promised Land throughly evil? The answer is; no!

You have to get into perspective that God will save those who are innately good and fear Him. God is true to His word and He is much, much wiser than you are Rose as is evident from you assertions.

Consider Sodom and Gomorrah. God would haved spared those cities if 10 righteous people could be found. God spared Lot and his family by giving them time to escape. Even lot's wife could not keep a simple instruction, but that is another story discussed in another thread.

Consider when the spies who went into the Promised Land before the Israelites invaded. The spies were hidden and saved by Rahab. Rahab was a harlot, she was not condemned by God for being a harlot. God hates the sin, not necessarily the person. Rahab had heard the news of how the Israelites had been delivered from Egypt and all that had happened to them and that God was on the side of the Israelites. Rahab was not an evil woman, she feared the God of the Israelites. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom we are told. It is evident from the actions and words of Rahab, she feared God. Rahab most likely did not agree with or condone idol/pagan worship though she was was born into that culture. You can argue why Rahab was a harlot and I expect she changed her ways once assimilated into the Israelite culture which was not innately evil as was the culture associated with idol worship. Rahab was a lone individual maybe. This gives you some scale by which to compare with the present day situation. By comparison to the millions/billions of people who have lived, it is a very small fraction of 1% who will be saved.

Nevertheless, we see that Rahab and her household were saved (a resemblance to the night of the Passover night in Egypt). Anyone like Rahab would have been saved by God. You cannot say that God is not merciful and that He has not given men and women the opportunity to be saved.

Men and women, might not be evil in your eyes, but you have got on your evil detecting filters and so you cannot see the evil that is present in us all, and more abundantly in the lives of all the people who practiced idolatry.

As explained to you before, the people had to be destroyed to rid the land of evil idolatrous practices just like removing a life-threatening cancer. Only complete removal gets rid of the cancer or else a part remains to grow back again; potentially worse than before. We know the Israelites failed to obey God's instruction and they did not utterly destroy the people. The consequences of this failing lead to the problems of wars, and the continuing practice of idolatry that influenced the Israelites. How is it you want to blame God for the mistakes of the Israelites? When you get to the root cause of the situations you are citing against God, Moses, or whoever, you find that man has brought trouble on himself. You fail to see the wisdom of God's instruction and that if God had been obeyed, we would not be having this argument.

We are all innateley evil, if we say there is no sin in us, we are liars. We must all learn the lesson Job learnt; he was not righteous before God. I have not come to accept God's wisdom blindly, but when I search for it, I can find it. This applies to the stories we are discussing in that the wisdom of God applies and is far greater than the wisdom man applies. We might struggle to see the wisdom at first, but God's wisdom is far greater than ours and so it has to searched out. I only hope you will think about what others have been saying to you. I can see you are intent on getting your message across and being blind to the truth that others are telling you. Please start to anylse the stories of the attrocities you are citing. Others are giving your their reasons based on their analytical research. I do not see you giving any good reason to support your views. Your are reading at face value without considering all the different possibilities before reaching a cconclusion.

All the best to you Rose.

David

[Rose]

Hello Rose
I have not given up entirely, especially when I see you make a statement like you have above which I have to refute. Of course the people were evil; they practiced idolatry and God hated that (and all the evil practices which went with that form of worship). Idolatry was an abomination to God. I do not know why you do not agree with this. Was every single person in the Promised Land throughly evil? The answer is; no!

You have to get into perspective that God will save those who are innately good and fear Him. God is true to His word and He is much, much wiser than you are Rose as is evident from you assertions.

Consider Sodom and Gomorrah. God would haved spared those cities if 10 righteous people could be found. God spared Lot and his family by giving them time to escape. Even lot's wife could not keep a simple instruction, but that is another story discussed in another thread.

Good morning, and happy St. Patty's Day David :yo:

The point I was making which you should well know, is that the reason the people who inhabited the Promised Land were destroyed was according to the Bible, because Yahweh wanted to give that land to the Hebrews. If as you say the people who inhabited the Promised Land were being slaughtered merely because they worshiped other gods, then Yahweh would have had to destroy (again) everyone on the planet!

It seems like what your saying is that if a people are deemed evil because they are "idol" worshipers, then it is okay to murder them and take their land and goods...which is exactly what happened in the taking of the Promised Land. Not only were the Hebrew's instructed to slaughter all the people, but they were explicitly instructed to show them NO mercy to them! How wicked is that?

Yes, your righteous God spared (not so righteous) Lot who offered his daughters to the angry mob to be raped, and then when his wife did nothing more than look back at the burning city she was turned into a pillar of salt! Something is wrong with that picture?


Consider when the spies who went into the Promised Land before the Israelites invaded. The spies were hidden and saved by Rahab. Rahab was a harlot, she was not condemned by God for being a harlot. God hates the sin, not necessarily the person. Rahab had heard the news of how the Israelites had been delivered from Egypt and all that had happened to them and that God was on the side of the Israelites. Rahab was not an evil woman, she feared the God of the Israelites. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom we are told. It is evident from the actions and words of Rahab, she feared God. Rahab most likely did not agree with or condone idol/pagan worship though she was was born into that culture. You can argue why Rahab was a harlot and I expect she changed her ways once assimilated into the Israelite culture which was not innately evil as was the culture associated with idol worship. Rahab was a lone individual maybe. This gives you some scale by which to compare with the present day situation. By comparison to the millions/billions of people who have lived, it is a very small fraction of 1% who will be saved.

Nevertheless, we see that Rahab and her household were saved (a resemblance to the night of the Passover night in Egypt). Anyone like Rahab would have been saved by God. You cannot say that God is not merciful and that He has not given men and women the opportunity to be saved.

Rahab most likely would have been considered an idol/pagan worshiper, because most people on the planet would have never heard off Yahweh, since Yahweh was only known to a small band of Hebrew's wandering in the wilderness, therefore everyone but the Hebrew's were evil idol worshipers.

I can most certainly say that God is not merciful by all the accounts I have quoted from his book! He even instructed his people to show NO mercy to the inhabitants of the Promised Land.


Men and women, might not be evil in your eyes, but you have got on your evil detecting filters and so you cannot see the evil that is present in us all, and more abundantly in the lives of all the people who practiced idolatry.

As explained to you before, the people had to be destroyed to rid the land of evil idolatrous practices just like removing a life-threatening cancer. Only complete removal gets rid of the cancer or else a part remains to grow back again; potentially worse than before. We know the Israelites failed to obey God's instruction and they did not utterly destroy the people. The consequences of this failing lead to the problems of wars, and the continuing practice of idolatry that influenced the Israelites. How is it you want to blame God for the mistakes of the Israelites? When you get to the root cause of the situations you are citing against God, Moses, or whoever, you find that man has brought trouble on himself. You fail to see the wisdom of God's instruction and that if God had been obeyed, we would not be having this argument.

We are all innateley evil, if we say there is no sin in us, we are liars. We must all learn the lesson Job learnt; he was not righteous before God. I have not come to accept God's wisdom blindly, but when I search for it, I can find it. This applies to the stories we are discussing in that the wisdom of God applies and is far greater than the wisdom man applies. We might struggle to see the wisdom at first, but God's wisdom is far greater than ours and so it has to searched out. I only hope you will think about what others have been saying to you. I can see you are intent on getting your message across and being blind to the truth that others are telling you. Please start to anylse the stories of the attrocities you are citing. Others are giving your their reasons based on their analytical research. I do not see you giving any good reason to support your views. Your are reading at face value without considering all the different possibilities before reaching a cconclusion.

All the best to you Rose.

David

Just because a tribal war god made up by Bronze Age men says I am innately evil, in no way means I am! Any book that denies me the right to follow my heart and express my full humanity because I'm a woman, is a book that does not speak of a righteous god.

Take care,
Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

You have to get into perspective that God will save those who are innately good and fear Him.

We are all innateley evil, if we say there is no sin in us, we are liars.
Good morning David,

There is much in your post to which I would like to respond, but first I need to find out which of these two statements you believe to be true.

Are some people "innately good" or are all people "innately evil"?

And if someone is "innately good" why would they need to be saved?

Thanks,

Richard

[David M]

Good morning David,

There is much in your post to which I would like to respond, but first I need to find out which of these two statements you believe to be true.

Hello Richard. I am not sure what difference my answer will make.


Are some people "innately good"
Yes


or are all people "innately evil"?
Yes


And if someone is "innately good" why would they need to be saved?
Someone can be good, but they are not perfect. Jesus has been given all judgement, so it is not for me to make a judgement as to who will be saved. I do not limit the mercy of God whose right it is to save whoever He choses. God has made it quite clear the type of person who will not be saved. Someone who is good, will naturally die. They do not need to be saved if they do not want to be saved and have demonstrated that in their lives.


Thanks,

Richard

You are welcome.

David

[David M]

Hello Rose
Thanks for pointing out it is Patrick's Day, who was Patrick?


Good morning, and happy St. Patty's Day David :yo:
The point I was making which you should well know, is that the reason the people who inhabited the Promised Land were destroyed was according to the Bible, because Yahweh wanted to give that land to the Hebrews. If as you say the people who inhabited the Promised Land were being slaughtered merely because they worshiped other gods, then Yahweh would have had to destroy (again) everyone on the planet!
That would be God's right and we are fortuante He has not, The wrath of God is still to come on this world; God has warned us. God has promised that He will not flood the earth again, but people as in the time of Noah, the people cannot say they have not been warned.



It seems like what your saying is that if a people are deemed evil because they are "idol" worshipers, then it is okay to murder them and take their land and goods...which is exactly what happened in the taking of the Promised Land. Not only were the Hebrew's instructed to slaughter all the people, but they were explicitly instructed to show them NO mercy to them! How wicked is that?
God did what was expedient at the time. Do you think that if the Israelites had politely asked the pagans to move out of the land they would? It is not our right as individuals to murder and steal from anyone. You cannot compare what God did to the rights of an individual. God is just, and man is not. Some people forfeit all their rights to be saved. God gives up on people described as reprobates. Do you want all unrepent reprobates to be saved?



Yes, your righteous God spared (not so righteous) Lot who offered his daughters to the angry mob to be raped, and then when his wife did nothing more than look back at the burning city she was turned into a pillar of salt! Something is wrong with that picture?
But you never look for, or admit, what is correct in the Bible (as far as I can make out from what I have read in your posts to date).



Rahab most likely would have been considered an idol/pagan worshiper, because most people on the planet would have never heard off Yahweh, since Yahweh was only known to a small band of Hebrew's wandering in the wilderness, therefore everyone but the Hebrew's were evil idol worshipers.
You say that, but that is not what the Bible says (which you conveniently ignore). Rahab, like her peers, had heard of Yahweh and knew what He had done for Israel. News of what had taken place had travelled widely. In Rahab's community, she was the exception; Rahab feared Yahweh and her peers did not. What is the fear of Yahweh; is not the beginning of wisdom? Rahab would have later acquired that widom for God saved her and she would come to learn of Him and His ways.
I do not know Rose how you can defend the indefensible.



I can most certainly say that God is not merciful by all the accounts I have quoted from his book! He even instructed his people to show NO mercy to the inhabitants of the Promised Land
That is sad. From what you say, you are not likely to repent and call on the mercy of God to save you.




Just because a tribal war god made up by Bronze Age men
Rose, on this basis, there is no point having any further discussion. I am willing to discuss our understanding of what is written in the Bible, but if the Bible and God is the work of man (as you claim), I cannot see how we can have a reasonable dialogue. I do not see any point arguing with someone who might quote from the Bible but who does not believe its authenticity. Is there nothing that you think is attributed to God as the divine author? Fom where does man get his knowledge of God?

It is quite clear you are a humanist and I know of some great humanists whose actions, put mine to shame, yet if they choose to disbelieve God, they forfeit their right to be saved, I leave that up to God. I can understand God saving anyone who genuinely does not know, but anyone who wants to defy Him, forfeits their right to be saved.


Any book that denies me the right to follow my heart and express my full humanity because I'm a woman, is a book that does not speak of a righteous god.
The Bible does not deny your right to do anything you choose. How fair is that of God to let you do what you want to do. You have only yourself to blame for any consequences.
God tells us very simply what is required of us; to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God Again, there are just just two simple commandments in which Jesus summed up all the law. Within this framework, you can do anything you choose, in which you have freedom to enjoy life whether as a woman or a man. And this is not to mention all the good things God has in store for us in the kingdom in which all the wrongs and injustices in this world, will be a thing of the past and will not be. You and I would not be having this type of discussion in the kingdom.

Blame man (as we agree on).



Take care,
Rose

And you Rose.


David

[Rose]

God did what was expedient at the time. Do you think that if the Israelites had politely asked the pagans to move out of the land they would? It is not our right as individuals to murder and steal from anyone. You cannot compare what God did to the rights of an individual. God is just, and man is not. Some people forfeit all their rights to be saved. God gives up on people described as reprobates. Do you want all unrepent reprobates to be saved?

Say what? You mean God can order the very individuals that he commanded not to murder, or steal...to go and murder and steal and it's OK.:confused: So if my neighbor says: "God told me to kill those people down the street, and take their home and goods because they are unrepentant sinners" then it's OK?




But you never look for, or admit, what is correct in the Bible (as far as I can make out from what I have read in your posts to date).

The purpose of all the Threads I've started is to show that the deity called Yahweh described in the Bible cannot be the creator of the universe, not to talk about its historical correctness. There is no way a primitive tribal war god, who is biased toward the male, and spends his time making petty rules to show his masculine superiority, could ever be considered the mastermind of all creation.


You say that, but that is not what the Bible says (which you conveniently ignore). Rahab, like her peers, had heard of Yahweh and knew what He had done for Israel. News of what had taken place had travelled widely. In Rahab's community, she was the exception; Rahab feared Yahweh and her peers did not. What is the fear of Yahweh; is not the beginning of wisdom? Rahab would have later acquired that widom for God saved her and she would come to learn of Him and His ways.
I do not know Rose how you can defend the indefensible.

What's up with that Bro? You seem to be the one who has not been able to defend what is moral, or right about murdering people to take their land and steal their goods!




That is sad. From what you say, you are not likely to repent and call on the mercy of God to save you.



Rose, on this basis, there is no point having any further discussion. I am willing to discuss our understanding of what is written in the Bible, but if the Bible and God is the work of man (as you claim), I cannot see how we can have a reasonable dialogue. I do not see any point arguing with someone who might quote from the Bible but who does not believe its authenticity. Is there nothing that you think is attributed to God as the divine author? Fom where does man get his knowledge of God?

It is quite clear you are a humanist and I know of some great humanists whose actions, put mine to shame, yet if they choose to disbelieve God, they forfeit their right to be saved, I leave that up to God. I can understand God saving anyone who genuinely does not know, but anyone who wants to defy Him, forfeits their right to be saved.

Searching out and discussing truthfully what is in the Bible is the reason I have come to the conclusions I have regarding the God of the Bible. I started this journey with no clue of ending up in the position I am today, but there was no way I could retain my integrity and concede authorship of the Bible to God. If one part of the Bible has immoralities attributed to God it affects the whole, because the whole is attributed to God. That does not mean the Bible doesn't contain truth and wisdom as with any religious text written by men.

I believe we get our knowledge of "God", or whatever that means for each individual from within ourselves...our inner connection to universal consciousness. Each individuals idea of what the divine is, develops from the culture they live in and how they perceive reality, that is why the god of the Bible reflects the ideas and viewpoints of Bronze Age man. If you do a comparison between the customs and perspective of Bronze Age tribal cultures and Yahweh you will find them very similar.



The Bible does not deny your right to do anything you choose. How fair is that of God to let you do what you want to do. You have only yourself to blame for any consequences.
God tells us very simply what is required of us; to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God Again, there are just just two simple commandments in which Jesus summed up all the law. Within this framework, you can do anything you choose, in which you have freedom to enjoy life whether as a woman or a man. And this is not to mention all the good things God has in store for us in the kingdom in which all the wrongs and injustices in this world, will be a thing of the past and will not be. You and I would not be having this type of discussion in the kingdom.

Blame man (as we agree on).



David

The Bible most certainly does deny women the same human rights that it gives to men. The Old Testament is the worst culprit, but Paul does a pretty good job in the New Testament.

Yes, blame man...that is preciously my point. Men wrote the Bible and continue to try and impose the God they created in their image upon others, to deny them (especially women) equal rights. All human should be afforded the same equal rights, which the Bible denies! That is why I can't believe a loving God inspired the Bible.

All the best,
Rose

[CWH]

[QUOTE=Rose;42326]Say what? You mean God can order the very individuals that he commanded not to murder, or steal...to go and murder and steal and it's OK.:confused: So if my neighbor says: "God told me to kill those people down the street, and take their home and goods because they are unrepentant sinners" then it's OK?
So if the US government told the marines to kill Osama and his men, is it ok? What will happened if the marines ignored the order to kill Osama and his men? Obviously, they will be punished for disobeying the order from the US government and be awarded for obeying the order.


The purpose of all the Threads I've started is to show that the deity called Yahweh described in the Bible cannot be the creator of the universe, not to talk about its historical correctness. There is no way a primitive tribal war god, who is biased toward the male, and spends his time making petty rules to show his masculine superiority, could ever be considered the mastermind of all creation.
There is no bias in the Bible; it's just human misinterpretation. BTW, all religion seems like male biased.


What's up with that Bro? You seem to be the one who has not been able to defend what is moral, or right about murdering people to take their land and steal their goods!
Whose people are people murdering? whose land are people taking? whose goods are people stealing? Humans, lands and goods are creations of God, so who are people murdering? God's people, Whose land are people taking? God's land. Whose goods are people stealing? God's land. Does it make sense for the owner to murder his own family, steal his own land and goods? Does an owner has the right to run his own family as he deems right and do whatever to his land and goods as he deems fit

God is wise indeed. :pray:

[Rose]

Say what? You mean God can order the very individuals that he commanded not to murder, or steal...to go and murder and steal and it's OK.:confused: So if my neighbor says: "God told me to kill those people down the street, and take their home and goods because they are unrepentant sinners" then it's OK?


So if the US government told the marines to kill Osama and his men, is it ok? What will happened if the marines ignored the order to kill Osama and his men? Obviously, they will be punished for disobeying the order from the US government and be awarded for obeying the order.


There is no bias in the Bible; it's just human misinterpretation. BTW, all religion seems like male biased.

You are comparing apples and oranges. The ordering of the Marines to kill the terrorist Osama Bin Laden who was the mastermind behind the murder of over three thousand innocent people cannot be compared to Yahweh commanding the slaughter of men, women, and children so he could give their land to the Hebrews. :eek:



Whose people are people murdering? whose land are people taking? whose goods are people stealing? Humans, lands and goods are creations of God, so who are people murdering? God's people, Whose land are people taking? God's land. Whose goods are people stealing? God's land. Does it make sense for the owner to murder his own family, steal his own land and goods? Does an owner has the right to run his own family as he deems right and do whatever to his land and goods as he deems fit

God is wise indeed. :pray:

With that kind of mentality anyone can kill whoever they want and steal their land and say: "God told me I could cause it's his land"! That's just plain crazy!

[CWH]

[QUOTE=Rose;42387]You are comparing apples and oranges. The ordering of the Marines to kill the terrorist Osama Bin Laden who was the mastermind behind the murder of over three thousand innocent people cannot be compared to Yahweh commanding the slaughter of men, women, and children so he could give their land to the Hebrews. :eek:
Am I comparing oranges and apples? I am stunned that you do not realized that Osama and his terrorist organization Al Qaieda killed and injured thousands and thousands of people. Families were ruined, properties destroyed, husbands and wives lost, children were also killed in the bombings. And they have other branches and related terrorists groups throughout the world...Jemaiyah Islamiah, Abu Sayab etc. just to name some.


With that kind of mentality anyone can kill whoever they want and steal their land and say: "God told me I could cause it's his land"! That's just plain crazy!
God is not some imaginary concept created by men; one day we will developed so advanced technologically that we will become like God and travel and colonize other worlds throughout the universe.
The people who occupied the lands were evil people that God decided to got rid off (same concept of Iran and many Muslim countries hoping to the wipe Israel from the face of the earth). They have no right to the land that they occupied which were already promised to Abraham long ago before. Those evil people were settling on a land that originally belongs to Abraham and merciful God had allowed them to settle in those lands all those years while hoping that they would change for the better. I see the whole saga like a landlord (God) forcing the evil tenants who refused to leave and have abused the land so that he could rent the land to others more civilized than them. Since God created the world, all lands in the world belongs to him and He have the right to give or rent to whoever he wanted to.

There is actually no such thing as your land or my land; all lands belong to God. I have studied this for decades, have you realized that God have allotted lands to different races and blessed and contained them? The Mongoloid races including the Chinese occupied lands in Asia bounded by the Pacific Ocean to the east, the Gobi desert and high Tibetan mountains to the west and south, the jungles Indo-China to the south and the tundra regions and ice cap in the north. The Negros were confined in much of Middle and South Africa with the Sahara desert to the north, the Indian Ocean to the east and the Atlantic Ocean to the west and Antartica to the south. The Red Indians of North America were confined to the regions around present day USA and Canada, with the tundra regions and ice cap in the north, the Pacific Ocean and the Rockies to the west, the Atlantic Ocean to the east and the jungles of Central America and deserts of California, Mexico to the south. The Europeans were confined by the Atlantic Ocean to the west, the deserts of Central Russia and the deserts of Arabia to the east, the Sahara desert to the south and the tundra regions and ice cap to the north. There seems to be subletting of land to sub-groups of the races contained in their various geographical boundaries, have you wondered why the Japanese occupied the island of Japan? the Indians the sub continent of India?, the aborigines in Australia? the Malays and Melanesians in the Malay Archipelago? the Arabs in Arabia and much of the Middle East? I believe thus that the land of Israel in the Middle East is originally allotted to the Jews which is a subgroup of the Semitic group but has been occupied by different races through the centuries.

May God Blessed our lands. :pray:

[David M]

Hello Rose

Say what? You mean God can order the very individuals that he commanded not to murder, or steal...to go and murder and steal and it's OK.:confused: So if my neighbor says: "God told me to kill those people down the street, and take their home and goods because they are unrepentant sinners" then it's OK?
It follows CWH's argument, if you were in the army, you would be ordered to kill in the time of war, but you are still expected to live by the civil laws of the land when not at war with the enemy. I have already said; in times of war, God said that the Israelites would be guiltless. They were not allowed to kill at any other time. You still have not admitted the idol worshippers were doing anything wrong in the sight of God. I am looking at this from God's perspective and the rules He laid down. If I look at this from the human perspective, I am inclined to agree with you.
God has given everyone (as far as I know) their human rights to do whatever they want. They can live life they want to, however, no one has the right to attack God's people and subvert God's people. Unless God helped Israel settle in the land He promised to Abraham, do you think the people occupying the land would not have attacked Israel and killed them all? God knew any remnant of these people would pervert His own people. Israel's unfaithfulness to God's instruction resulted in the very thing God knew would happen. Its is a shame you cannot see the lessons God is teaching us by having these horrible events put on record.



The purpose of all the Threads I've started is to show that the deity called Yahweh described in the Bible cannot be the creator of the universe, not to talk about its historical correctness. There is no way a primitive tribal war god, who is biased toward the male, and spends his time making petty rules to show his masculine superiority, could ever be considered the mastermind of all creation.
If that was your purpose, you should have started a thread with that title instead of all these different headings which ends up not the topic of discussion. What you say about God is exactly what He is not. It is a shame we have nothing to agree on concerning God.


What's up with that Bro? You seem to be the one who has not been able to defend what is moral, or right about murdering people to take their land and steal their goods!
I have defended the morality of God. I have stated again why God took the action He did, but you see nothing wrong the practice of idolatry. God will pour out His wrath for all the evil in this world that is happening today, including idolatrous practices. God has not changed His rules. You cannot say you have been warned, or that you did not read the Bible in which this is stated.


Searching out and discussing truthfully what is in the Bible is the reason I have come to the conclusions I have regarding the God of the Bible. I started this journey with no clue of ending up in the position I am today, but there was no way I could retain my integrity and concede authorship of the Bible to God. If one part of the Bible has immoralities attributed to God it affects the whole, because the whole is attributed to God. That does not mean the Bible doesn't contain truth and wisdom as with any religious text written by men.
I think your intention is to find fault and you are spiritually blind to the lessons taught and not disposed to reason. It would be good to know in another thread which parts of the Bible you consider contain truth and which parts you do not regard do not contain truth.


I believe we get our knowledge of "God", or whatever that means for each individual from within ourselves...our inner connection to universal consciousness. Each individuals idea of what the divine is, develops from the culture they live in and how they perceive reality, that is why the god of the Bible reflects the ideas and viewpoints of Bronze Age man. If you do a comparison between the customs and perspective of Bronze Age tribal cultures and Yahweh you will find them very similar.
If you do not think you get any revelation of God from His word (The Bible as it is today), then all your thoughts are either based on the writings of men or are based on your own thoughts. I think the Bible reflects the cultures God has had to deal with, which have been of man's making. God has not changed, it is man's culture that has changed over the centuries.


The Bible most certainly does deny women the same human rights that it gives to men. The Old Testament is the worst culprit, but Paul does a pretty good job in the New Testament.
You fail to understand the writings of Paul in the way I do and so I cannot agree with your statement.


Yes, blame man...that is preciously my point. Men wrote the Bible and continue to try and impose the God they created in their image upon others, to deny them (especially women) equal rights. All human should be afforded the same equal rights, which the Bible denies! That is why I can't believe a loving God inspired the Bible.
Unfortunately, man is to blame for all the evil and injustice in this world and it is not surprising when man does not allow God in their lives. Our socitey is based on man and not God. Your battle to get women's rights recognized in a world of men; it should not be with God who is for equality between men and women and it should not be with Christians who are for the most part, supportive of your claim that in a man's world, women's rights have been abused.


Kind regards
David


All the best,

David

[Rose]

[QUOTE] Am I comparing oranges and apples? I am stunned that you do not realized that Osama and his terrorist organization Al Qaieda killed and injured thousands and thousands of people. Families were ruined, properties destroyed, husbands and wives lost, children were also killed in the bombings. And they have other branches and related terrorists groups throughout the world...Jemaiyah Islamiah, Abu Sayab etc. just to name some.

What kind of crazy nonsense are you talking about? I'm the one who introduced the subject of comparing Osama to Moses, they are both terrorists! You are the one who said: "So if the US government told the marines to kill Osama and his men, is it ok? What will happened if the marines ignored the order to kill Osama and his men? Obviously, they will be punished for disobeying the order from the US government and be awarded for obeying the order."



God is not some imaginary concept created by men; one day we will developed so advanced technologically that we will become like God and travel and colonize other worlds throughout the universe.
The people who occupied the lands were evil people that God decided to got rid off (same concept of Iran and many Muslim countries hoping to the wipe Israel from the face of the earth). They have no right to the land that they occupied which were already promised to Abraham long ago before. Those evil people were settling on a land that originally belongs to Abraham and merciful God had allowed them to settle in those lands all those years while hoping that they would change for the better. I see the whole saga like a landlord (God) forcing the evil tenants who refused to leave and have abused the land so that he could rent the land to others more civilized than them. Since God created the world, all lands in the world belongs to him and He have the right to give or rent to whoever he wanted to.

That is just your opinion Cheow, the only proof you have for God is the writings of Bronze Age men in the Bible. Men who thought all sorts of crazy things that have been proven wrong by science. Since you can't prove God created the world then you can't prove all the land belongs to him and you surely can't prove that he gave some of the land to the Hebrews by murdering its inhabitants, all the while ordering the Hebrews to break three of the Ten Commandments he had just given them!

There is actually no such thing as your land or my land; all lands belong to God. I have studied this for decades, have you realized that God have allotted lands to different races and blessed and contained them? The Mongoloid races including the Chinese occupied lands in Asia bounded by the Pacific Ocean to the east, the Gobi desert and high Tibetan mountains to the west and south, the jungles Indo-China to the south and the tundra regions and ice cap in the north. The Negros were confined in much of Middle and South Africa with the Sahara desert to the north, the Indian Ocean to the east and the Atlantic Ocean to the west and Antartica to the south. The Red Indians of North America were confined to the regions around present day USA and Canada, with the tundra regions and ice cap in the north, the Pacific Ocean and the Rockies to the west, the Atlantic Ocean to the east and the jungles of Central America and deserts of California, Mexico to the south. The Europeans were confined by the Atlantic Ocean to the west, the deserts of Central Russia and the deserts of Arabia to the east, the Sahara desert to the south and the tundra regions and ice cap to the north. There seems to be subletting of land to sub-groups of the races contained in their various geographical boundaries, have you wondered why the Japanese occupied the island of Japan? the Indians the sub continent of India?, the aborigines in Australia? the Malays and Melanesians in the Malay Archipelago? the Arabs in Arabia and much of the Middle East? I believe thus that the land of Israel in the Middle East is originally allotted to the Jews which is a subgroup of the Semitic group but has been occupied by different races through the centuries.

May God Blessed our lands. :pray:

So, you think this god of the Bible specially chose a certain group of people to give land to that already belonged to someone else, and then left the rest of the people on the planet to get their own land anyway they could, and just hope that Yahweh doesn't take it away from them. How perverse is that?

All the best,
Rose

[Rose]

Hello Rose

It follows CWH's argument, if you were in the army, you would be ordered to kill in the time of war, but you are still expected to live by the civil laws of the land when not at war with the enemy. I have already said; in times of war, God said that the Israelites would be guiltless. They were not allowed to kill at any other time. You still have not admitted the idol worshippers were doing anything wrong in the sight of God. I am looking at this from God's perspective and the rules He laid down. If I look at this from the human perspective, I am inclined to agree with you.
God has given everyone (as far as I know) their human rights to do whatever they want. They can live life they want to, however, no one has the right to attack God's people and subvert God's people. Unless God helped Israel settle in the land He promised to Abraham, do you think the people occupying the land would not have attacked Israel and killed them all? God knew any remnant of these people would pervert His own people. Israel's unfaithfulness to God's instruction resulted in the very thing God knew would happen. Its is a shame you cannot see the lessons God is teaching us by having these horrible events put on record.

Good morning David,

I have already said numerous times it is Yahweh I hold guilty for the crimes of immorality, which is one of the big reasons I can no longer believe that he is the god who created the universe.

Rather than being a shame, I think it shows my humanity and courage to be able to stand up and declare those atrocities in the Bible to be immoral along with the god who spoke them!





I have defended the morality of God. I have stated again why God took the action He did, but you see nothing wrong the practice of idolatry. God will pour out His wrath for all the evil in this world that is happening today, including idolatrous practices. God has not changed His rules. You cannot say you have been warned, or that you did not read the Bible in which this is stated.
I know you have defended the morality of God by saying it is OK to murder men, women and children for the sole purpose of taking their land, taking their virgins, and taking their possessions! :eek: Now you say God has not changed his rules, so does that mean all the idol worshipers on the planet are in fear for their lives?



I think your intention is to find fault and you are spiritually blind to the lessons taught and not disposed to reason. It would be good to know in another thread which parts of the Bible you consider contain truth and which parts you do not regard do not contain truth.


If you do not think you get any revelation of God from His word (The Bible as it is today), then all your thoughts are either based on the writings of men or are based on your own thoughts. I think the Bible reflects the cultures God has had to deal with, which have been of man's making. God has not changed, it is man's culture that has changed over the centuries.

As I have said many times, I no longer believe the Bible to be the word of God, so of course I don't receive any revelation from it. I do believe the Bible contains truth, as do many other books, but it also contains a lot of errors and it's up to those who read it to be able to discern between truth and fiction.



You fail to understand the writings of Paul in the way I do and so I cannot agree with your statement.


Unfortunately, man is to blame for all the evil and injustice in this world and it is not surprising when man does not allow God in their lives. Our socitey is based on man and not God. Your battle to get women's rights recognized in a world of men; it should not be with God who is for equality between men and women and it should not be with Christians who are for the most part, supportive of your claim that in a man's world, women's rights have been abused.


Kind regards
David


All the best,

David

Of course, you understand Paul through the eyes of a man who sees nothing wrong with women being in subjection to men. That is why it has always been women who have had to fight for their rights that were taken from them by men who believe that Yahweh put man in the position of rulership over women.

As far as I can tell from the Bible, God does not give women equal human rights with men...anyone who argues otherwise has not read their Bible.

Take care my friend,
Rose

[CWH]

[QUOTE=Rose;42411][QUOTE=CWH;42406]
What kind of crazy nonsense are you talking about? I'm the one who introduced the subject of comparing Osama to Moses, they are both terrorists! You are the one who said: "So if the US government told the marines to kill Osama and his men, is it ok? What will happened if the marines ignored the order to kill Osama and his men? Obviously, they will be punished for disobeying the order from the US government and be awarded for obeying the order."
So is the USA. Ask any Muslim and some non-Muslim and they will tell you the US is the greatest terrorist of them all with their incessant involvement in wars in the Middle East and around the world.


That is just your opinion Cheow, the only proof you have for God is the writings of Bronze Age men in the Bible. Men who thought all sorts of crazy things that have been proven wrong by science. Since you can't prove God created the world then you can't prove all the land belongs to him and you surely can't prove that he gave some of the land to the Hebrews by murdering its inhabitants, all the while ordering the Hebrews to break three of the Ten Commandments he had just given them!
That is also your opinion regarding Bronze Age men in the Bible with no solid proof and few support in this forum. Proven wrong by science? Science as I said is the study of God's creation. "Nothing new under the sun" said King Solomon, the wisest man in the OT.


So, you think this god of the Bible specially chose a certain group of people to give land to that already belonged to someone else, and then left the rest of the people on the planet to get their own land anyway they could, and just hope that Yahweh doesn't take it away from them. How perverse is that?
As I said before the land of Israel originally belongs to Abraham. Merciful God allowed other people to occupy the land through the centuries due to Israel's disobedience and sin. Was the land of America belonged to Europeans or did it originally belonged to the Native Indians? Why didn't merciful God punished the European settlers for taking the land by violence and murder?....or do you wish God to punish so?....or perhaps it was God's plan to let the European take over the land of America from the Native Indians so as to make America a great nation?

God Bless America. :pray:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

So is the USA. Ask any Muslim and some non-Muslim and they will tell you the US is the greatest terrorist of them all with their incessant involvement in wars in the Middle East and around the world.

So what? How does that justify the evil attributed to God in the Bible?




That is just your opinion Cheow, the only proof you have for God is the writings of Bronze Age men in the Bible. Men who thought all sorts of crazy things that have been proven wrong by science. Since you can't prove God created the world then you can't prove all the land belongs to him and you surely can't prove that he gave some of the land to the Hebrews by murdering its inhabitants, all the while ordering the Hebrews to break three of the Ten Commandments he had just given them!
That is also your opinion regarding Bronze Age men in the Bible with no solid proof and few support in this forum. Proven wrong by science? Science as I said is the study of God's creation. "Nothing new under the sun" said King Solomon, the wisest man in the OT.

That's not true. A massive amount of evidence has been presented in this forum.

Science is not defined as "the study of God's creation." But even if it were, that wouldn't prove that the God of the Bible is the Creator or that the Bible is scientifically accurate.



As I said before the land of Israel originally belongs to Abraham. Merciful God allowed other people to occupy the land through the centuries due to Israel's disobedience and sin. Was the land of America belonged to Europeans or did it originally belonged to the Native Indians? Why didn't merciful God punished the European settlers for taking the land by violence and murder?....or do you wish God to punish so?....or perhaps it was God's plan to let the European take over the land of America from the Native Indians so as to make America a great nation?

Why didn't merciful God punished the European settlers for taking the land by violence and murder? Excellent question. The obvious answer is because that God does not exist. The evils committed in the foundation of the USA (slavery and genocide) proves that it was never a "Christian" country.

[Rose]

That is also your opinion regarding Bronze Age men in the Bible with no solid proof and few support in this forum. Proven wrong by science? Science as I said is the study of God's creation. "Nothing new under the sun" said King Solomon, the wisest man in the OT.
It might be my opinion whether or not God exists, but it most certainly is a fact that the Bible has been proven wrong on many scientific accounts.


As I said before the land of Israel originally belongs to Abraham. Merciful God allowed other people to occupy the land through the centuries due to Israel's disobedience and sin. Was the land of America belonged to Europeans or did it originally belonged to the Native Indians? Why didn't merciful God punished the European settlers for taking the land by violence and murder?....or do you wish God to punish so?....or perhaps it was God's plan to let the European take over the land of America from the Native Indians so as to make America a great nation?

God Bless America. :pray:

Just because the Bible says the land belongs to Israel does not mean it actually does. Why should I believe what the Bible says anymore than I should believe what the Koran says?

Rose