What is the difference between Moses and Osama Bin Laden?

[Rose]

Everyone has heard of Osama Bin Laden, the master mind behind the mass murder that occurred on 9-11-01 when he ordered planes to crash into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. Osama Bin Laden is considered one of the worst terrorists that has ever lived by all rational people, but an Islamic terrorist would tell you that Osama Bin Laden was carrying out a direct command from Allah to kill the infidels, so in their eyes he is a righteous, holy man.

Likewise, everyone has heard of Moses, the iconic figure of the Bible, who received the Ten Commandments from Yahweh. When most people think of Moses, they think of a mighty man of God who led the Hebrews out of Egypt in the Exodus, but wasn’t he also a mass murderer just like Osama Bin Laden? Like Osama heard from Allah, Moses heard from Yahweh, who on numerous occasions directed him to have his Hebrew soldiers kill thousands of men, women and children (including their own people), because they were worshipping false gods and idols.

If we hold Osama responsible for murdering thousands of people, because he said Allah told him to kill the infidels, then shouldn’t Moses also be held responsible for murdering thousands of people because he said Yahweh told him to kill the pagans and idol worshipers? Why is Moses revered and Osama condemned? I see no difference in the horrendous acts of violence that were carried out by the commands of either of these men!

Why does Christendom, and Judaism hold this man who was a mass murderer in such high regard, as a leader of morality? Moses should have obeyed the sixth Commandment: 'Thou shalt not KILL', but instead he listened to the voices in his head, just like Osama did telling him to kill the idol worshippers, pagans and the infidels!

So, what is the difference between Osama and Moses?

Rose

[Rose]

Everyone has heard of Osama Bin Laden, the master mind behind the mass murder that occurred on 9-11-01 when he ordered planes to crash into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. Osama Bin Laden is considered one of the worst terrorists that has ever lived by all rational people, but an Islamic terrorist would tell you that Osama Bin Laden was carrying out a direct command from Allah to kill the infidels, so in their eyes he is a righteous, holy man.

Likewise, everyone has heard of Moses, the iconic figure of the Bible, who received the Ten Commandments from Yahweh. When most people think of Moses, they think of a mighty man of God who led the Hebrews out of Egypt in the Exodus, but wasn’t he also a mass murderer just like Osama Bin Laden? Like Osama heard from Allah, Moses heard from Yahweh, who on numerous occasions directed him to have his Hebrew soldiers kill thousands of men, women and children (including their own people), because they were worshipping false gods and idols.

If we hold Osama responsible for murdering thousands of people, because he said Allah told him to kill the infidels, then shouldn’t Moses also be held responsible for murdering thousands of people because he said Yahweh told him to kill the pagans and idol worshipers? Why is Moses revered and Osama condemned? I see no difference in the horrendous acts of violence that were carried out by the commands of either of these men!

Why does Christendom, and Judaism hold this man who was a mass murderer in such high regard, as a leader of morality? Moses should have obeyed the sixth Commandment: 'Thou shalt not KILL', but instead he listened to the voices in his head, just like Osama did telling him to kill the idol worshippers, pagans and the infidels!

So, what is the difference between Osama and Moses?

Rose

So far it looks like no one is brave enough comment on my post, or to answer my question on the difference between Moses and Osama Bin Ladin. Hopefully someone will come along with enough gumption to give me a good reason why Moses should be considered a man of God and not a murderer like Osama!

Rose

[Bob May]

Everyone has heard of Osama Bin Laden, the master mind behind the mass murder that occurred on 9-11-01 when he ordered planes to crash into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. Osama Bin Laden is considered one of the worst terrorists that has ever lived by all rational people, but an Islamic terrorist would tell you that Osama Bin Laden was carrying out a direct command from Allah to kill the infidels, so in their eyes he is a righteous, holy man.

Likewise, everyone has heard of Moses, the iconic figure of the Bible, who received the Ten Commandments from Yahweh. When most people think of Moses, they think of a mighty man of God who led the Hebrews out of Egypt in the Exodus, but wasn’t he also a mass murderer just like Osama Bin Laden? Like Osama heard from Allah, Moses heard from Yahweh, who on numerous occasions directed him to have his Hebrew soldiers kill thousands of men, women and children (including their own people), because they were worshipping false gods and idols.

If we hold Osama responsible for murdering thousands of people, because he said Allah told him to kill the infidels, then shouldn’t Moses also be held responsible for murdering thousands of people because he said Yahweh told him to kill the pagans and idol worshipers? Why is Moses revered and Osama condemned? I see no difference in the horrendous acts of violence that were carried out by the commands of either of these men!

Why does Christendom, and Judaism hold this man who was a mass murderer in such high regard, as a leader of morality? Moses should have obeyed the sixth Commandment: 'Thou shalt not KILL', but instead he listened to the voices in his head, just like Osama did telling him to kill the idol worshippers, pagans and the infidels!

So, what is the difference between Osama and Moses?

Rose

Hi Rose,

Moses was a key character in an allegorical tale which demonstrated,..

(Firstly),.. Man's inability to reach an understanding of of IHVH, and our relationship to Him by our own efforts. (That would be either mental or physical effort.)

And (Secondly),.. Our ability to reach said understanding not by our own efforts, but by Grace. (Grace = Gift or Influx from the divine)

2co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
2co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.
2co 3:16 Nevertheless when it (the heart) shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
2co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. (Italics mine)


Osama Bin Laden was a radical muslim cleric responsible for murdering people of many faiths including other Muslims.

Apples and oranges.

Bob

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Moses was a key character in an allegorical tale which demonstrated,..

Hey there Bob,

So Moses wasn't a real historical person?

I know we've gone over this before, but I remain completely mystified as to how I am supposed to discern fact from fiction in your interpretation of the Bible.

Richard

[Bob May]

Hey there Bob,

So Moses wasn't a real historical person?

I know we've gone over this before, but I remain completely mystified as to how I am supposed to discern fact from fiction in your interpretation of the Bible.

Richard

Hi Richard,
It is suppose to mystify us. And to answer your question, it takes practice. We are polarized negative and keep wanting to shift back into fact and history and actual events.
But even if some of these events were real, actual history,... the overwhelming importance is still our understanding of God and our relationship to him.

Otherwise how would a guy from thousands of years ago putting a veil over his face have any effect on our understanding of the writings of this guy???

Bob

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,
It is suppose to mystify us. And to answer your question, it takes practice. We are polarized negative and keep wanting to shift back into fact and history and actual events.
But even if some of these events were real, actual history,... the overwhelming importance is still our understanding of God and our relationship to him.

Otherwise how would a guy from thousands of years ago putting a veil over his face have any effect on our understanding of the writings of this guy???

Bob
It takes practice? How do you ever know if you are right? I mean, suppose someone finds archeological evidence for the slaughter of the Midianites. That would prove you wrong. What would prove you right?

I don't understand you question about the veil. It was not the cause of the fact that the Jews failed to understand the OT. Paul simply used that as an allegory. And the fact that he used it as an allegory doesn't mean it didn't really happen.

[Rose]

Hi Rose,

Moses was a key character in an allegorical tale which demonstrated,..


Osama Bin Laden was a radical muslim cleric responsible for murdering people of many faiths including other Muslims.

Apples and oranges.

Bob

Hello Bob, :yo:

Moses was a radical Hebrew who was responsible for murdering people of many religions including other Hebrews!

Semitic and Semitic.

Rose

[heb13-13]

Hi Rose,

Moses was a key character in an allegorical tale which demonstrated,..



Hi Bob,

Why would Jesus refer to men that were really allegories? Does anyone you know talk that way? I don't talk that way or know anyone that talks that way so why would Jesus expect us to understand that He was talking about non-real personas?

Mat 8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

What about this?

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

So, is Peter playing along with Jesus now or does he see Moses, too?

Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Is everything an allegory to everyone? Moses, Satan maybe even Jesus? I suppose since you have never seen these figures physically and personally you can reduce them all to allegories.

Sigh!!

It is increasingly difficult to converse with you all because everything is whatever you want it to be.

What about the reality of Christ in you? Is that an allegory, to you too?

Rick

[David M]

Hello Rose
I have just come to this thread after I think abandoning your thread or at least the conversation with Richard in that thread that I have been having with Richard in other threads dealing with the same topic of the 32,000 virgins.


So far it looks like no one is brave enough comment on my post, or to answer my question on the difference between Moses and Osama Bin Ladin. Hopefully someone will come along with enough gumption to give me a good reason why Moses should be considered a man of God and not a murderer like Osama!

I see the thread has got started.


Everyone has heard of Osama Bin Laden, the master mind behind the mass murder that occurred on 9-11-01 when he ordered planes to crash into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. Osama Bin Laden is considered one of the worst terrorists that has ever lived by all rational people, but an Islamic terrorist would tell you that Osama Bin Laden was carrying out a direct command from Allah to kill the infidels, so in their eyes he is a righteous, holy man.

Likewise, everyone has heard of Moses, the iconic figure of the Bible, who received the Ten Commandments from Yahweh. When most people think of Moses, they think of a mighty man of God who led the Hebrews out of Egypt in the Exodus, but wasn’t he also a mass murderer just like Osama Bin Laden? Like Osama heard from Allah, Moses heard from Yahweh, who on numerous occasions directed him to have his Hebrew soldiers kill thousands of men, women and children (including their own people), because they were worshipping false gods and idols.

If we hold Osama responsible for murdering thousands of people, because he said Allah told him to kill the infidels, then shouldn’t Moses also be held responsible for murdering thousands of people because he said Yahweh told him to kill the pagans and idol worshipers? Why is Moses revered and Osama condemned? I see no difference in the horrendous acts of violence that were carried out by the commands of either of these men!

Why does Christendom, and Judaism hold this man who was a mass murderer in such high regard, as a leader of morality? Moses should have obeyed the sixth Commandment: 'Thou shalt not KILL', but instead he listened to the voices in his head, just like Osama did telling him to kill the idol worshippers, pagans and the infidels!

So, what is the difference between Osama and Moses?

Rose

Any similarity between Moses and Bin Laden should soon be dispelled. I do not know of any redeeming qualities of Bin Laden, perhaps you can enlighten us. Moses had been placed in Pharaoh's household. The story of Moses found in a basket in the river might sound fairy story, but the reason leading up to that was not pleasant.
Exodus 1:22 And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.
Pharaoh had no pity on the baby boys of the Israelite women. When it comes to the plagues and the killing of the first born, I expect we shall be back on the morality of God issue.

Anyway, these long separated events show us exactly how God is using situations to bring about his purpose. We have to learn the lessons as we read of all the events that took place. God put Moses in the right place at the right time.

God chose Moses even though Moses did not regard himself qualified; Exodus4:10 And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.
I know how he felt. Moses was God's spokesman and so I can only assume that this topic is going to lead on to the morality of God again.

I think we should study the humility of Moses and his faith in God. All these "great" men of God were a type of Jesus, but none of them were perfect and they failed. We know how Moses failed to sanctify God before he struck the rock to produce water. Despite his failing, God did not let him down. We know that Moses was punished for this action in his life and he was not allowed to enter the Pomised Land.

I know you will hold God to account for Moses operating under God's instruction. When the Israelites collectively killed in the time of war under instruction, they were to be regarded as guiltless.
Deut 21:8 Be merciful, O LORD, unto thy people Israel, whom thou hast redeemed, and lay not innocent blood unto thy people of Israel's charge. And the blood shall be forgiven them.9 So shalt thou put away the guilt of innocent blood from among you, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the LORD..

We can find examples of when the Israelites were not guiltless and when they were punished. Also, we see that the Israelites did not always follow the instruction that God gave to Moses to give to the people. They saved people instead of utterly destroying them as was the command.

I will cut this short as I know I will have opportunity to say more later on or in another thread. I only wanted to give some indication that Moses cannot really be compard to Bin Laden. You are making the comparison which is bound to bring up the discussions we have been having about the same attrocities in the many of your threads.

All the best

David

[CWH]

There are many differences between Moses and Osam:

1. Moses was an orphan, was Osama an orphan?

2. Moses had seen and talked with God directly, Osama believed he received messages from God.

3. Moses ordered the killings with direct instructions from God, Osama ordered the killings thinking he have permission with God.

4. Moses was victorious in almost every battle but Osama.....?

5. Moses Had miraculous powers from God such as the parting of the Red Sea but Osama.....?

6. Moses died at an old ripe age at about 120 years but Osama was killed at about age 50

7. Moses appeared in the Transfiguration, did Osama appeared to his people after he was killed?

8. Moses occupied large tracts of land but Osama...?

9. Moses obeyed and followed God's instruction directly but Osama followed his agenda thinking it was from God.

10. Moses led his people to the Holy Land but Osama....?

11. Moses was a prophet, Osama was not known as a prophet.

12. Moses talked with Jesus, did Osama talked with Jesus?

13. Moses gave the Hebrews the Ten Commandments directly from God, did Osama gave his men commandments or commandments thought to be directly from God?

Blessings to all.:pray:

[Bob May]

It takes practice? How do you ever know if you are right? I mean, suppose someone finds archeological evidence for the slaughter of the Midianites. That would prove you wrong. What would prove you right?


Hi Richard,
How do I know that I am right?
You would not believe me if I told you because you think that I am wrong. So we will leave that one alone.

If someone found evidence of slaughter of midianites it would not prove that God commanded it or that there were mass sex slaves etc., etc.

You are all proving me right. Not to you, but to me. Gil says that the Father is dead. Jesus said differently.
Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. Jesus did not or would not command the rape of or mass murder of anyone. That is obvious. Others say you have to factor in ther times they lived in. But God says He changes not, so that explanation does not wash.




I don't understand you question about the veil. It was not the cause of the fact that the Jews failed to understand the OT.


It was the cause of not understanding the writings of Moses and still is. I am pointing out allegory as a tool that God used in writing the scriptures. But merely looking at the text or not looking at the text allegorically is not the entire problem. I attended a church for 14 years that used Hebrew meanings and Charles Filmore's metaphysical Bible dictionary to guide us through the allegorical meanings of Deuteronomy and Leviticus and many other parts of the OT.
And yet we as a church by our adherence to the importance of Law became blinded and condemned by the very books we studied.
It was not until a few of us began to see the doctrine of Grace that ran throughout scripture that we began to understand the New Covenant and how it applied to us and how we had been blind to it for so long.
This is what Jesus meant when he said,
Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.





Paul simply used that as an allegory. And the fact that he used it as an allegory doesn't mean it didn't really happen.

Paul recognised it as an allegory. He did not twist it into an allegory.
And you are correct,.. just because it is allegory does not mean it didn't really happen. But just because there was a war between Israel (who, by the way Paul says that we are) and another nation does not mean that the story concerning that war was not created in such a way that spoke of the internal struggles that we go through in order to come to a correct understanding of our relationship with the Father.

Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus.

Ga 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
Ga 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Ga 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Ga 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Ga 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Ga 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

Ga 1:23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.

Something happened to Paul's way of thinking. He went from "zealous of the traditions of my fathers.."
To being "called ..by His (God's) Grace."

That was a complete change in his way of viewing his relationship with God. It was also acompanied by a realisation that the OT was allegorical. I believe that much of that three year period and even beyond was taken up with being taught by Jesus concerning the scripture and re-evaluating the OT stories in the light of both his new awareness of Grace and allegorical interpretation of scripture.

Bob

[Bob May]

Hello Bob, :yo:

Moses was a radical Hebrew who was responsible for murdering people of many religions including other Hebrews!

Semitic and Semitic.

Rose

Only if you believe that the stories were actual/literally true.
But this viewpoint does not compute with Jesus being the express image of the Father.

So either the Bible was not written by divine inspiration or something else is being said there.

Bob

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Only if you believe that the stories were actual/literally true.
But this viewpoint does not compute with Jesus being the express image of the Father.

So either the Bible was not written by divine inspiration or something else is being said there.

Bob
Those seem to be the two options.

And since the "something else" seems as unworthy of Divine Wisdom as the "literal interpretation" I am forced to conclude that the Bible is not the product of "divine inspiration" - or at least not in the sense that is commonly understood.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,
How do I know that I am right?
You would not believe me if I told you because you think that I am wrong. So we will leave that one alone.

You tease! :p

Please tell me! I'm begging man ... ya gotta tell me ... pretty please???



If someone found evidence of slaughter of midianites it would not prove that God commanded it or that there were mass sex slaves etc., etc.

Yeah, I think you are right. No amount of proof would convince a person who has chosen not to believe something.



You are all proving me right. Not to you, but to me. Gil says that the Father is dead. Jesus said differently.
Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. Jesus did not or would not command the rape of or mass murder of anyone. That is obvious. Others say you have to factor in ther times they lived in. But God says He changes not, so that explanation does not wash.

I agree it is "obvious" that Jesus would not have commanded the things we see in the OT. But it is just as obvious that he would not have inspired them to be written! So this means the Bible is not inspired by God.




I don't understand you question about the veil. It was not the cause of the fact that the Jews failed to understand the OT.
It was the cause of not understanding the writings of Moses and still is.

The veil did not "cause" anything. It was an allegory, not a "cause."



I am pointing out allegory as a tool that God used in writing the scriptures. But merely looking at the text or not looking at the text allegorically is not the entire problem. I attended a church for 14 years that used Hebrew meanings and Charles Filmore's metaphysical Bible dictionary to guide us through the allegorical meanings of Deuteronomy and Leviticus and many other parts of the OT.
And yet we as a church by our adherence to the importance of Law became blinded and condemned by the very books we studied.
It was not until a few of us began to see the doctrine of Grace that ran throughout scripture that we began to understand the New Covenant and how it applied to us and how we had been blind to it for so long.
This is what Jesus meant when he said,
Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

I think I understand perfectly what you are doing and how you are doing it. I just find it utterly unbelievable because it is so radically free of any hermeneutical constraints. It feels like an interpretation made of the thinnest gossamer. It makes the Bible feel meaningless.



Something happened to Paul's way of thinking. He went from "zealous of the traditions of my fathers.."
To being "called ..by His (God's) Grace."

That was a complete change in his way of viewing his relationship with God. It was also acompanied by a realisation that the OT was allegorical. I believe that much of that three year period and even beyond was taken up with being taught by Jesus concerning the scripture and re-evaluating the OT stories in the light of both his new awareness of Grace and allegorical interpretation of scripture.

Bob
Paul did not invent the idea of allegorical interpretation! That's not the "new way of thinking" that he experienced. The "new way of thinking" was his understanding of the Gospel, righteousness by faith, etc.

[Rose]

There are many differences between Moses and Osam:

1. Moses was an orphan, was Osama an orphan?

2. Moses had seen and talked with God directly, Osama believed he received messages from God.

3. Moses ordered the killings with direct instructions from God, Osama ordered the killings thinking he have permission with God.

4. Moses was victorious in almost every battle but Osama.....?

5. Moses Had miraculous powers from God such as the parting of the Red Sea but Osama.....?

6. Moses died at an old ripe age at about 120 years but Osama was killed at about age 50

7. Moses appeared in the Transfiguration, did Osama appeared to his people after he was killed?

8. Moses occupied large tracts of land but Osama...?

9. Moses obeyed and followed God's instruction directly but Osama followed his agenda thinking it was from God.

10. Moses led his people to the Holy Land but Osama....?

11. Moses was a prophet, Osama was not known as a prophet.

12. Moses talked with Jesus, did Osama talked with Jesus?

13. Moses gave the Hebrews the Ten Commandments directly from God, did Osama gave his men commandments or commandments thought to be directly from God?

Blessings to all.:pray:

Hi Cheow, thanks for taking time to respond :yo: I will answer in red.

1. Moses was an orphan, was Osama an orphan? The differences I was referring to have nothing to do with childhood circumstances.

2. Moses had seen and talked with God directly, Osama believed he received messages from God. The Bible tells us Moses spoke with God directly, we have no other historical proof of that, in the same manner Osama and all of his Muslim followers believed that he was given direct messages from Allah (God).

3. Moses ordered the killings with direct instructions from God, Osama ordered the killings thinking he have permission with God. That's right! The Bible tells us that God commanded Moses to murder thousands of people because they were pagans and idol worshipers, and Osama believed God told him to murder thousands of people because they were infidels.

4. Moses was victorious in almost every battle but Osama.....? Osama was victorious in some of his attacks which resulted in thousands of deaths

5. Moses Had miraculous powers from God such as the parting of the Red Sea but Osama.....? We only know that to be true from the biblical account.

6. Moses died at an old ripe age at about 120 years but Osama was killed at about age 50 That's a difference, but it doesn't really matter.

7. Moses appeared in the Transfiguration, did Osama appeared to his people after he was killed? I have no idea if Osama has appeared in visions to his followers.

8. Moses occupied large tracts of land but Osama...? So?

9. Moses obeyed and followed God's instruction directly but Osama followed his agenda thinking it was from God. Moses followed God's commands to murder thousands of people, just like Osama followed Allah's command to murder thousands of people!

10. Moses led his people to the Holy Land but Osama....? Osama believed that Mohammed led his people to the Holy Land.

11. Moses was a prophet, Osama was not known as a prophet. Osama was indeed a prophet to his Islamic terrorist followers.

12. Moses talked with Jesus, did Osama talked with Jesus? Osama believed in Mohammed and heard from Allah.

13. Moses gave the Hebrews the Ten Commandments directly from God, did Osama gave his men commandments or commandments thought to be directly from God? Osama believed he was following the Koran which Mohammed recieved from Allah.

All the comparisons look pretty similar to me...both Moses and Osama were Semitic men who believe they recieved commands from God to murder thousands of people because they were idolotrous, pagan, infidels!

All the best,
Rose

[Rose]

Hello Rose

Any similarity between Moses and Bin Laden should soon be dispelled. I do not know of any redeeming qualities of Bin Laden, perhaps you can enlighten us. Moses had been placed in Pharaoh's household. The story of Moses found in a basket in the river might sound fairy story, but the reason leading up to that was not pleasant.
Exodus 1:22 And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.
Pharaoh had no pity on the baby boys of the Israelite women. When it comes to the plagues and the killing of the first born, I expect we shall be back on the morality of God issue.

Anyway, these long separated events show us exactly how God is using situations to bring about his purpose. We have to learn the lessons as we read of all the events that took place. God put Moses in the right place at the right time.

God chose Moses even though Moses did not regard himself qualified; Exodus4:10 And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.
I know how he felt. Moses was God's spokesman and so I can only assume that this topic is going to lead on to the morality of God again.

Hi David, glad you joined the conversation :yo:

My point is not to show the redeeming qualities of Osama, though I'm sure his followers thought he had plenty.

The morality of God, that's what it's all about! Why is it moral for God to command Moses to murder thousands of people, and immoral for Osama to murder thousands of people on direct command from Allah?


I think we should study the humility of Moses and his faith in God. All these "great" men of God were a type of Jesus, but none of them were perfect and they failed. We know how Moses failed to sanctify God before he struck the rock to produce water. Despite his failing, God did not let him down. We know that Moses was punished for this action in his life and he was not allowed to enter the Pomised Land.

I know you will hold God to account for Moses operating under God's instruction. When the Israelites collectively killed in the time of war under instruction, they were to be regarded as guiltless.
Deut 21:8 Be merciful, O LORD, unto thy people Israel, whom thou hast redeemed, and lay not innocent blood unto thy people of Israel's charge. And the blood shall be forgiven them.9 So shalt thou put away the guilt of innocent blood from among you, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the LORD..

We can find examples of when the Israelites were not guiltless and when they were punished. Also, we see that the Israelites did not always follow the instruction that God gave to Moses to give to the people. They saved people instead of utterly destroying them as was the command.

I know the Bible depicts Moses as a type of Christ, but when you stop and think about it I would not want to compare Jesus with a murderer of thousands. It's one thing to kill in a time of war, but quite another to murderer your own people and others simply because they are worshiping idols! Moses had three thousand of his own people slaughtered simply because they were worshiping a golden calf. :eek:


I will cut this short as I know I will have opportunity to say more later on or in another thread. I only wanted to give some indication that Moses cannot really be compared to Bin Laden. You are making the comparison which is bound to bring up the discussions we have been having about the same attrocities in the many of your threads.

All the best

David

Of course Moses can be compared to Osama.

Moses was a radical religious fanatic that had thousands of his own people and others murdered, by command from God - simply because they were worshiping idols...the exact same scenario applies to Osama.

Great chatting,
Rose

[Bob May]

Hi Bob,
Hi Rick,

Why would Jesus refer to men that were really allegories?


He did it all the time.

Mt 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mt 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Mt 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Mt 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:

Was there really a merchant man and a woman hiding leaven in three measures of meal or the man finding treasure???
There very well may have been but the stories concerning them is the "Reality" that Jesus is pointing to.



Does anyone you know talk that way? I don't talk that way or know anyone that talks that way so why would Jesus expect us to understand that He was talking about non-real personas?


Yes, I do.
Jesus talked that way to his disciples and taught them allegory.

Mt 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Mt 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Mt 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mt 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Mt 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Etc., Etc., ....




Mt 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. Mt 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Mt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mt 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mt 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Now, you may think that that is unfair. Some people were taught allegory and some were not. But wait a minute,... WHAT HE TOLD THEM IN SECRET IS NO LONGER SECRET!!!!
It has been published in the New Testament now, so it is available to all of us.



Mat 8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.


So they were practicing the law. So what??

If they were practicing the entire law they would not have been stoning adulterers or people that picked up stick on the Sabbath because Justice and mercy (Which were also a part of the law) would have tempered their following of those laws.



What about this?

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

So, is Peter playing along with Jesus now or does he see Moses, too?


I did not say Moses did not exist. But the stories concerning Moses were written to be looked at more deeply. Jesus said that Moses wrote of him.
The law was written to bring every man guilty before God. It brings us to the end of ourselves, not only in our ability to keep the law, but also in our inability to resolve the apparently unresolveable idea of who God is,..and what reality is.
The mentality that Moses signifies becomes useless when we come to the promised land/Kingdom of heaven.
Jesus demonstrated that the law could not be kept. The Pharisees by keeping the law of circumcision had to break the law of Sabbath.
This is the conundrum. Break one law and you are guilty of all...

Moses is the opposite of Jesus. A contrast of two entirely different ways of thinking.
Joh 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

So Moses was compared to Jesus, but it was a CONTRASTING comparison.



Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.



Very good example. So if the story concerning Moses was true then he should not have been alive. Correct?
He never made it into the promised land. But you are missing the important part of that particular story.
Mt 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Mt 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Mt 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mt 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. Mt 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Mt 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Mt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mt 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mt 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

So in order to hear Jesus we are given the knowledge of the allegorical nature that the scripture was written in. It is all about hearing Jesus in both the Old and New Testaments.
Jesus thought that it was necessary in order to hear and understand.
What do you think?




Is everything an allegory to everyone? Moses, Satan maybe even Jesus? I suppose since you have never seen these figures physically and personally you can reduce them all to allegories.


Moses, Jesus and Satan are all real entities/people. Everything Jesus was said to have done, he did.
Both Satan and Moses accuse us. Jesus does not.
Once we get an awareness of what Grace is neither Moses nor Satan has any more power over us. They have accomplished what they were supposed to accomplish in our spiritual growth.
If we are no longer under the law how can we be accused of not having kept the law or not keeping it?
DUH!!!



Sigh!!

It is increasingly difficult to converse with you all because everything is whatever you want it to be.


I am finding it difficult also. Because though Jesus said how can you understand all parables unless you understand the the "mysteries",.. which he teaches to his disciples (US) as allegory, yet very few seem to hear it. Why is that? He said it was necessary in order to hear and understand what he was saying.
"All parables" would also include the OT parables.



What about the reality of Christ in you? Is that an allegory, to you too?

Rick



Of course that is true. Christ in you the hope of glory is THE MYSTERY that we are striving for. And in order for us to come to that understanding Jesus gives us allegory as a tool. But also as I said earlier in this post, it is merely a tool that helps us to understand the scripture in the way that it was written. The main thing is an awareness that we are no longer under the law but under grace. With that awareness we grow more and more able to understand scripture both Old and New Testaments.
It is not up to us nor within our ability to comprehend any of this without the Spirit.

All the best,
Bob

[Bob May]

Those seem to be the two options.

And since the "something else" seems as unworthy of Divine Wisdom as the "literal interpretation" I am forced to conclude that the Bible is not the product of "divine inspiration" - or at least not in the sense that is commonly understood.

Ok. I'll say actual, as literal means the original intent of the author.
You are not forced to believe that the bible is not divinely inspired.
It is not in the sense that is commonly understood.

Bob

[Bob May]

Hey Richard,

""Originally Posted by Bob May
Hi Richard,
How do I know that I am right?
You would not believe me if I told you because you think that I am wrong. So we will leave that one alone.""

You tease! :p

It takes practice? How do you ever know if you are right? I mean, suppose someone finds archeological evidence for the slaughter of the Midianites. That would prove you wrong. What would prove you right?

Please tell me! I'm begging man ... ya gotta tell me ... pretty please???


Ok, since you asked pretty please. By revelation.
It's kind of like having a belly ache. I know it is true, but I can't prove it to you.



Yeah, I think you are right. No amount of proof would convince a person who has chosen not to believe something.


"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."



I agree it is "obvious" that Jesus would not have commanded the things we see in the OT. But it is just as obvious that he would not have inspired them to be written! So this means the Bible is not inspired by God.


It is your choice to believe that. The other option is to believe that the Old Testament is inspired but written allegorically.




The veil did not "cause" anything. It was an allegory, not a "cause."


2co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
2co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.

Yes the veil upon Moses face was allegory for the veil that is upon our hearts until we come to an awareness of Grace.
But what it shows is that without this veil that is upon our hearts we cannot understand the writings of Moses.




I think I understand perfectly what you are doing and how you are doing it. I just find it utterly unbelievable because it is so radically free of any hermeneutical constraints. It feels like an interpretation made of the thinnest gossamer. It makes the Bible feel meaningless.
Paul did not invent the idea of allegorical interpretation! That's not the "new way of thinking" that he experienced. The "new way of thinking" was his understanding of the Gospel, righteousness by faith, etc.

Paul did not invent allegorical interpretation. I did not say he did. I have even used Aesop as an example and he wrote before Paul was alive.

How could allegory make the bible meaningless when it clarifies it and both Jesus and Paul said it was necessary in order to understand it?
Jesus gives some symbols in the parable of the sower and Paul gives more when specifically stating that the story concerning Isaac and Ishmael were allegories. Also that the flood of Noah had to do with baptism as did the pillars of fire and cloud. And Jesus' speaking of the veil over Moses face.

The more we look at and keep our minds open to the allegorical nature of scripture the more we see it.
And the more we see it the more we see the same patterns in our own lives.

See that you build it after the pattern shown thee on the mount.

Bob

[David M]

Hi Rose

I see that Bob's reply giving us one difference has soon gone down a side trail and as much as Richard and Bob both make some very good points in their posts, which I appreciate, they have gone off topic.

Your topic is; "What is the difference between Moses and Osama Bin Laden?"

You have confirmed my suspicion (as I could see where this is leading) and you have said;

The morality of God, that's what it's all about!
I do not agree that this thread should be about the morality of God. We should really stick to question. I know I was guilty of some digression when leaping to the defence of Moses, but I could see where this thread was leading. If the morals of God is what this is all about, I suggest you start a thread on the subject so we can focus our thoughts on that subject instead of hijacking lots of different threads. The subject is bound to attract a lot visitors and contributers to the subject and give us all a chance to appreciate each others opinions and arguments and have them concentrated in one thread on the topic.

Cheow gave us a list of differences and I can see from your reply you make a could case for similarities and yet minimize any differences. If you were asked to produce a list of differences, you could easily answer "none" or else trivialize the differences to be of no importance. It is still good to know what others think the difference is between the two men.

Standing outside of my box, I can see how you are counteracting the differences proffered to make your case for the similarities, but that is not what this thread is about.

Just my observation.

Great chatting with you too Rose


David

[Rose]

Hi Rose

I see that Bob's reply giving us one difference has soon gone down a side trail and as much as Richard and Bob both make some very good points in their posts, which I appreciate, they have gone off topic.

Your topic is; "What is the difference between Moses and Osama Bin Laden?"


I do not agree that this thread should be about the morality of God. We should really stick to question. I know I was guilty of some digression when leaping to the defence of Moses, but I could see where this thread was leading. If the morals of God is what this is all about, I suggest you start a thread on the subject so we can focus our thoughts on that subject instead of hijacking lots of different threads. The subject is bound to attract a lot visitors and contributers to the subject and give us all a chance to appreciate each others opinions and arguments and have them concentrated in one thread on the topic.

Cheow gave us a list of differences and I can see from your reply you make a could case for similarities and yet minimize any differences. If you were asked to produce a list of differences, you could easily answer "none" or else trivialize the differences to be of no importance. It is still good to know what others think the difference is between the two men.

Standing outside of my box, I can see how you are counteracting the differences proffered to make your case for the similarities, but that is not what this thread is about.

Just my observation.

Great chatting with you too Rose


David

Hi David,

Yes, the topic is "the difference between Moses and Osama", but obviously I am not meaning trivial differences like where they were born. I answered the list of differences that Cheow gave appropriately, because some of the differences he listed have nothing to do with either mans morality, which is the whole point of this thread.

My opening post is specifically focusing on the morality of these two men, no one would even question the immorality of Osama, but Moses is no better when you compare his murders with those of Osama. Of course God's morality gets called into question because the Bible states that he commanded Moses to carry out the murder of thousands of people.

What I would like to know is why Moses is held in such hight regard as a righteous man of God, whereas Osama is condemned as a radical terrorist (rightly so!)?

All the best,
Rose

[CWH]

See my reply in See my replies in Blue:

Hi Cheow, thanks for taking time to respond :yo: I will answer in

red.

1. Moses was an orphan, was Osama an orphan? The differences I was referring to have nothing to do with childhood circumstances.
Why not? Moses was orphaned from a poor family and God made him great but Osama was from a rich Arabian family.

2. Moses had seen and talked with God directly, Osama believed he received messages from God. The Bible tells us Moses spoke with God directly, we have no other historical proof of that, in the same manner Osama and all of his Muslim followers believed that he was given direct messages from Allah (God).
Moses spoke with God directly and had even seen God, did any reporters said and witnessed that Osama have spoken to God and seen God directly?

3. Moses ordered the killings with direct instructions from God, Osama ordered the killings thinking he have permission with God. That's right! The Bible tells us that God commanded Moses to murder thousands of people because they were pagans and idol worshipers, and Osama believed God told him to murder thousands of people because they were infidels.
Moses had directions from God as was recorded in the Bible, did any newspaper reported and witnessed that God told Osama to kill thousands of infidels?

4. Moses was victorious in almost every battle but Osama.....? Osama was victorious in some of his attacks which resulted in thousands of deaths
Moses won almost every battle but Osama lost almost every battle throughout the world. If God was with Osama, why did he made Osama lost almost every battle?....or....do you wish Osama won every battle?

5. Moses Had miraculous powers from God such as the parting of the Red Sea but Osama.....? We only know that to be true from the biblical account.
Miraculous powers is one of the ways that God showed that He is in charge i.e. "so that the works of God may be manifested that you may believe in Him" - Jesus. Osama did not have any miraculous powers showed that God is not manifested in him,

6. Moses died at an old ripe age at about 120 years but Osama was killed at about age 50 That's a difference, but it doesn't really matter.
Why not? Good righteous leaders as seen in the Bible usually died from old age but evil leaders usually died much younger, good examples are Abraham, Joshua, David, Solomon etc. If one compares the good kings ad bad kings of Israel, you will realized that good kings lasted much longer than bad kings. And many bad kings died violently:

http://www.purelybiblical.com/ftp/K/Kings_Israel_Judah.pdf


7. Moses appeared in the Transfiguration, did Osama appeared to his people after he was killed? I have no idea if Osama has appeared in visions to his followers.
The Transfiguration was not a vision in which Moses appeared before the apostles eyes whereas Osama have never been reported to appear before his men after his death in real or in vision.

8. Moses occupied large tracts of land but Osama...? So?
God in the OT usually rewarded good people with blessings which usually comes with land, abundance and riches. Osama was not blessed with such blessings of land, abundance and riches even though he was the son of a rich Arabian.

9. Moses obeyed and followed God's instruction directly but Osama followed his agenda thinking it was from God. Moses followed God's commands to murder thousands of people, just like Osama followed Allah's command to murder thousands of people!
Moses following God's instructions was direct and valid and was directed at evil people whereas Osama followed his God's command indirectly and whose killing was directed at anyone good or bad in order to further his religious agenda.

10. Moses led his people to the Holy Land but Osama....? Osama believed that Mohammed led his people to the Holy Land.
I don't know what you are taking about and it has nothing to do with Mohammed; we are talking about the differences between Moses and Osama. Moses lead his people to the Holy Land whereas Osama did not lead anyone to their Holy Land in Mecca or Jerusalem.

11. Moses was a prophet, Osama was not known as a prophet. Osama was indeed a prophet to his Islamic terrorist followers.
Osama was never reported as a prophet. Even if his people looked at him as a prophet, he was a false prophet. How do you distinguish a true or a false prophet? See Deuteronomy 18:
17 The LORD said to me: 'What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.'

21 You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?' 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.


12. Moses talked with Jesus, did Osama talked with Jesus? Osama believed in Mohammed and heard from Allah.
Was it reported and witnessed in the newspaper that Osama heard commands from his God? (Let's refrain from using the word Allah as it may offend our Muslim readers).

13. Moses gave the Hebrews the Ten Commandments directly from God, did Osama gave his men commandments or commandments thought to be directly from God? Osama believed he was following the Koran which Mohammed recieved from Allah[COLOR="#ff0000"].
[COLOR="#0000FF"]Moses received direct instructions from God regarding the Ten Commandments whereas Osama believed he received commandments by reading the Koran which was indirectly from his God.

[QUOTE]All the comparisons look pretty similar to me...both Moses and Osama were Semitic men who believe they recieved commands from God to murder thousands of people because they were idolotrous, pagan, infidels!
They are obviously not similar!.


May God's Blessed Us. :pray:

[David M]

Hi David,

What I would like to know is why Moses is held in such hight regard as a righteous man of God, whereas Osama is condemned as a radical terrorist (rightly so!)?

All the best,
Rose

Hi Rose
From what you have said, it would depend in which camp you want to be as to how you regard these two men. I can only speak from the perspective of what the Bible says about Moses.
All I would say is that where God describes people as a "friend of God" or " a man (woman) after God's own heart", we really have to appreciate the motives of these people. Moses killed a man, King David killed Uriah to cover up his adultery with Bathseba and yet David repented and God forgave him. Unless we can examine the hearts of men like Moses and David how can we truly know the heart of a person the way God does? Abraham believed and that was enough for God to count it as righteousness; Abraham is described as a "friend of God". At times the message of the Bible is very simple and plain and should be all we need to know and do. God spoke with Moses "Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
" so it is recorded.

Micah 6:8 He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
And Jesus summed up all the law and the prophets in two simple commandments.

Behind all of these mentioned above, we come down to what is really in people's hearts and what is their motivation?

We can all say we believe, but only God knows what we believe and knows the intent of our heart. I do not know what you believe any more than you know what I believe. I have trusted in people who have told me to my face they are not a liar when they were. How am I to know when people are telling me the truth? As imperfect as the Bible might appear with its introduced errors and bias of the tranaslators, I still trust the Bible as the word God in which I have come to trust (not without foundation). I feel priveledged for knowing what God has in store for those who truly love and fear Him. We should not lose sight of the good news of the Gospel as we examine these moral issues.

The Bible warns us in several places "not to trust in lying words". I am afraid with the best of intent of people, there are very few people I can trust and I am unlikely to trust anyone whose heart is not centred on God or His Son. Psalm 146:3 3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

Sadly, when a person's true colors come to light, those in whom we trust might not be there to help us in our time of need.


Is good to talk

David

[Rose]

Hi Rose
From what you have said, it would depend in which camp you want to be as to how you regard these two men. I can only speak from the perspective of what the Bible says about Moses.
All I would say is that where God describes people as a "friend of God" or " a man (woman) after God's own heart", we really have to appreciate the motives of these people. Moses killed a man, King David killed Uriah to cover up his adultery with Bathseba and yet David repented and God forgave him. Unless we can examine the hearts of men like Moses and David how can we truly know the heart of a person the way God does? Abraham believed and that was enough for God to count it as righteousness; Abraham is described as a "friend of God". At times the message of the Bible is very simple and plain and should be all we need to know and do. God spoke with Moses "Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
" so it is recorded.

Micah 6:8 He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
And Jesus summed up all the law and the prophets in two simple commandments.

Behind all of these mentioned above, we come down to what is really in people's hearts and what is their motivation?

We can all say we believe, but only God knows what we believe and knows the intent of our heart. I do not know what you believe any more than you know what I believe. I have trusted in people who have told me to my face they are not a liar when they were. How am I to know when people are telling me the truth? As imperfect as the Bible might appear with its introduced errors and bias of the tranaslators, I still trust the Bible as the word God in which I have come to trust (not without foundation). I feel priveledged for knowing what God has in store for those who truly love and fear Him. We should not lose sight of the good news of the Gospel as we examine these moral issues.

The Bible warns us in several places "not to trust in lying words". I am afraid with the best of intent of people, there are very few people I can trust and I am unlikely to trust anyone whose heart is not centred on God or His Son. Psalm 146:3 3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

Sadly, when a person's true colors come to light, those in whom we trust might not be there to help us in our time of need.


Is good to talk

David

Good Morning David, :yo:

The Bible is the only perspective any of us can speak from, when discussing the characters that are only spoken of in the Bible. When the Bible says such egregious things about the actions of God and man why should we believe it? The only way I can judge biblical morality is by what I read within its pages, and there is some pretty bad stuff in there!

So, basically what you are saying is that if the Bible says Moses was a righteous man even though he murdered thousands of women and children I am to believe it? Do I not use my own moral judgment that tells me killing innocent people is WRONG?

Muslims believe the Koran is the word of Allah, so they follow what they interpret it to say. Why are they wrong, and you right? Why is Yahweh the one true god and not Allah? Many questions with no answers. :confused:

Take care,
Rose

[Rose]

See my reply in See my replies in Blue:

Hi Cheow, thanks for taking time to respond :yo: I will answer in

red.

1. Moses was an orphan, was Osama an orphan? The differences I was referring to have nothing to do with childhood circumstances.
Why not? Moses was orphaned from a poor family and God made him great but Osama was from a rich Arabian family.

2. Moses had seen and talked with God directly, Osama believed he received messages from God. The Bible tells us Moses spoke with God directly, we have no other historical proof of that, in the same manner Osama and all of his Muslim followers believed that he was given direct messages from Allah (God).
Moses spoke with God directly and had even seen God, did any reporters said and witnessed that Osama have spoken to God and seen God directly?

3. Moses ordered the killings with direct instructions from God, Osama ordered the killings thinking he have permission with God. That's right! The Bible tells us that God commanded Moses to murder thousands of people because they were pagans and idol worshipers, and Osama believed God told him to murder thousands of people because they were infidels.
Moses had directions from God as was recorded in the Bible, did any newspaper reported and witnessed that God told Osama to kill thousands of infidels?

4. Moses was victorious in almost every battle but Osama.....? Osama was victorious in some of his attacks which resulted in thousands of deaths
Moses won almost every battle but Osama lost almost every battle throughout the world. If God was with Osama, why did he made Osama lost almost every battle?....or....do you wish Osama won every battle?

5. Moses Had miraculous powers from God such as the parting of the Red Sea but Osama.....? We only know that to be true from the biblical account.
Miraculous powers is one of the ways that God showed that He is in charge i.e. "so that the works of God may be manifested that you may believe in Him" - Jesus. Osama did not have any miraculous powers showed that God is not manifested in him,

6. Moses died at an old ripe age at about 120 years but Osama was killed at about age 50 That's a difference, but it doesn't really matter.
Why not? Good righteous leaders as seen in the Bible usually died from old age but evil leaders usually died much younger, good examples are Abraham, Joshua, David, Solomon etc. If one compares the good kings ad bad kings of Israel, you will realized that good kings lasted much longer than bad kings. And many bad kings died violently:

http://www.purelybiblical.com/ftp/K/Kings_Israel_Judah.pdf


7. Moses appeared in the Transfiguration, did Osama appeared to his people after he was killed? I have no idea if Osama has appeared in visions to his followers.
The Transfiguration was not a vision in which Moses appeared before the apostles eyes whereas Osama have never been reported to appear before his men after his death in real or in vision.

8. Moses occupied large tracts of land but Osama...? So?
God in the OT usually rewarded good people with blessings which usually comes with land, abundance and riches. Osama was not blessed with such blessings of land, abundance and riches even though he was the son of a rich Arabian.

9. Moses obeyed and followed God's instruction directly but Osama followed his agenda thinking it was from God. Moses followed God's commands to murder thousands of people, just like Osama followed Allah's command to murder thousands of people!
Moses following God's instructions was direct and valid and was directed at evil people whereas Osama followed his God's command indirectly and whose killing was directed at anyone good or bad in order to further his religious agenda.

10. Moses led his people to the Holy Land but Osama....? Osama believed that Mohammed led his people to the Holy Land.
I don't know what you are taking about and it has nothing to do with Mohammed; we are talking about the differences between Moses and Osama. Moses lead his people to the Holy Land whereas Osama did not lead anyone to their Holy Land in Mecca or Jerusalem.

11. Moses was a prophet, Osama was not known as a prophet. Osama was indeed a prophet to his Islamic terrorist followers.
Osama was never reported as a prophet. Even if his people looked at him as a prophet, he was a false prophet. How do you distinguish a true or a false prophet? See Deuteronomy 18:
17 The LORD said to me: 'What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.'

21 You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?' 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.


12. Moses talked with Jesus, did Osama talked with Jesus? Osama believed in Mohammed and heard from Allah.
Was it reported and witnessed in the newspaper that Osama heard commands from his God? (Let's refrain from using the word Allah as it may offend our Muslim readers).

13. Moses gave the Hebrews the Ten Commandments directly from God, did Osama gave his men commandments or commandments thought to be directly from God? Osama believed he was following the Koran which Mohammed recieved from Allah[COLOR="#ff0000"].
[COLOR=#0000FF]Moses received direct instructions from God regarding the Ten Commandments whereas Osama believed he received commandments by reading the Koran which was indirectly from his God.


They are obviously not similar!.


May God's Blessed Us. :pray:

Hi Cheow,

I have played along with your game on "difference(s)" (plural), when my original question was "what is the difference between Moses and Osama" (singular). Meaning, what is the difference between Moses murdering thousands of people and Osama murdering thousands of people? You say because Moses received direct instructions from God! And I say, so did Osama...ask any of his followers and they will tell you Allah told him to kill the infidels!

So, why is Moses a righteous, holy man of God, and Osama a radical, murdering terrorist? :confused:

All the best,
Rose

[CWH]

Hi David,

Yes, the topic is "the difference between Moses and Osama", but obviously I am not meaning trivial differences like where they were born. I answered the list of differences that Cheow gave appropriately, because some of the differences he listed have nothing to do with either mans morality, which is the whole point of this thread.

My opening post is specifically focusing on the morality of these two men, no one would even question the immorality of Osama, but Moses is no better when you compare his murders with those of Osama. Of course God's morality gets called into question because the Bible states that he commanded Moses to carry out the murder of thousands of people.

What I would like to know is why Moses is held in such hight regard as a righteous man of God, whereas Osama is condemned as a radical terrorist (rightly so!)?

All the best,
Rose
Why talked about one difference when there are many personality differences related to the current issue?


What I would like to know is why Moses is held in such hight regard as a righteous man of God, whereas Osama is condemned as a radical terrorist (rightly so!)?

I have already answered which I guessed you could not accept them:

Moses spoke with God directly and had even seen God, did any reporters said and witnessed that Osama have spoken to God and seen God directly?

Moses won almost every battle but Osama lost almost every battle throughout the world. If God was with Osama, why did he made Osama lost almost every battle?....or....do you wish Osama won every battle?

Miraculous powers bestowed on Moses is one of the ways that God showed that He is in charge i.e. "so that the works of God may be manifested that you may believe in Him" - Jesus. Osama did not have any miraculous powers showed that God is not manifested in him,

Why not? Good righteous leaders as seen in the Bible usually died from old age but evil leaders usually died much younger, good examples are Abraham, Joshua, David, Solomon etc. If one compares the good kings ad bad kings of Israel, you will realized that good kings lasted much longer than bad kings. And many bad kings died violently:

The Transfiguration was not a vision in which Moses appeared before the apostles eyes whereas Osama have never been reported to appear before his men after his death in real or in vision.

God in the OT usually rewarded good people with blessings which usually comes with land, abundance and riches. Osama was not blessed with such blessings of land, abundance and riches even though he was the son of a rich Arabian.

Moses following God's instructions was direct and valid and was directed at evil people whereas Osama followed his God's command indirectly and whose killing was directed at anyone good or bad in order to further his religious agenda.

Moses lead his people to the Holy Land whereas Osama did not lead anyone to their Holy Land in Mecca or Jerusalem.

Moses was a prophet, Osama was not known as a prophet.

Moses received direct instructions from God regarding the Ten Commandments whereas Osama believed he received commandments by reading the Koran which was indirectly from his God.

To summarize why Moses is highly regarded as a righteous man because he is a man of God doing God's will compared to Osama:

1. Moses spoke with God and have seen God. God even called him friend. Osama none.

2. Moses won almost every battle, Osama almost none.

3. Moses had divine miraculous powers, Osama none,

4. Moses lived long life and died of old age. Osama had a shorter life and died violently.

5. Moses appeared before Jesus, Osama no.

6. Moses was rewarded with God's blessings, abundance, riches, power land, Osama hardly any.

7. Moses killed evil people as instructed by God, Osama killed anyone good or evil.

8. Moses lead God's people to the Holy Land. Osama didn't. Without Moses, there will not be Jerusalem, Israel and the Jews.

9. Moses gave the Jews and God's people the Ten Commandments. Without Moses, there won't be any Ten commandments and the commandments of Jesus to love God with all your heart, soul and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself. Osama gave none.

Most of all, almost all Muslims do not hold Osama in high regards, they do not see him as the "son" or prophet of their God. However, almost all Christians and Jews and even Muslims do hold Moses in high regards as a man and prophet of God. This is mainly due to records in the Bible and even the Koran which records Moses as a righteous man doing the will of God. Did the Koran and the Bible record anything about Osama? As such, even if Osama claimed to be doing their God's will by killing infidels, it is not taken seriously by almost anyone including almost all Muslims. If he is not considered credible doing God's will, then he is regarded by all as an outcast killer i.e. a terrorist after his own religious or political agenda.

God Blessed. :pray:

[Rose]

Why talked about one difference when there are many personality differences related to the current issue?



I have already answered which I guessed you could not accept them:

Moses spoke with God directly and had even seen God, did any reporters said and witnessed that Osama have spoken to God and seen God directly?

Moses won almost every battle but Osama lost almost every battle throughout the world. If God was with Osama, why did he made Osama lost almost every battle?....or....do you wish Osama won every battle?

Miraculous powers bestowed on Moses is one of the ways that God showed that He is in charge i.e. "so that the works of God may be manifested that you may believe in Him" - Jesus. Osama did not have any miraculous powers showed that God is not manifested in him,

Why not? Good righteous leaders as seen in the Bible usually died from old age but evil leaders usually died much younger, good examples are Abraham, Joshua, David, Solomon etc. If one compares the good kings ad bad kings of Israel, you will realized that good kings lasted much longer than bad kings. And many bad kings died violently:

The Transfiguration was not a vision in which Moses appeared before the apostles eyes whereas Osama have never been reported to appear before his men after his death in real or in vision.

God in the OT usually rewarded good people with blessings which usually comes with land, abundance and riches. Osama was not blessed with such blessings of land, abundance and riches even though he was the son of a rich Arabian.

Moses following God's instructions was direct and valid and was directed at evil people whereas Osama followed his God's command indirectly and whose killing was directed at anyone good or bad in order to further his religious agenda.

Moses lead his people to the Holy Land whereas Osama did not lead anyone to their Holy Land in Mecca or Jerusalem.

Moses was a prophet, Osama was not known as a prophet.

Moses received direct instructions from God regarding the Ten Commandments whereas Osama believed he received commandments by reading the Koran which was indirectly from his God.

To summarize why Moses is highly regarded as a righteous man because he is a man of God doing God's will compared to Osama:

1. Moses spoke with God and have seen God. God even called him friend. Osama none.

2. Moses won almost every battle, Osama almost none.

3. Moses had divine miraculous powers, Osama none,

4. Moses lived long life and died of old age. Osama had a shorter life and died violently.

5. Moses appeared before Jesus, Osama no.

6. Moses was rewarded with God's blessings, abundance, riches, power land, Osama hardly any.

7. Moses killed evil people as instructed by God, Osama killed anyone good or evil.

8. Moses lead God's people to the Holy Land. Osama didn't. Without Moses, there will not be Jerusalem, Israel and the Jews.

9. Moses gave the Jews and God's people the Ten Commandments. Without Moses, there won't be any Ten commandments and the commandments of Jesus to love God with all your heart, soul and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself. Osama gave none.

Most of all, almost all Muslims do not hold Osama in high regards, they do not see him as the "son" or prophet of their God. However, almost all Christians and Jews and even Muslims do hold Moses in high regards as a man and prophet of God. This is mainly due to records in the Bible and even the Koran which records Moses as a righteous man doing the will of God. Did the Koran and the Bible record anything about Osama? As such, even if Osama claimed to be doing their God's will by killing infidels, it is not taken seriously by almost anyone including almost all Muslims. If he is not considered credible doing God's will, then he is regarded by all as an outcast killer i.e. a terrorist after his own religious or political agenda.

God Blessed. :pray:

Hi Cheow,

Your arguments are extremely weak as I knew they would be, because no one can justify, and condone the horrendous actions commanded by God and carried out by Moses without perverting, twisting and contorting the basic understanding of Morality!

It is NEVER okay to slaughter innocent women and children, and that is exactly what the Bible says Moses did on command from God. The reason people condemn Osama is because he also ordered the murder of innocent men, women, and children. So, the conclusion remains...Moses and Osama are murderers!

Rose

[Rose]

Why talked about one difference when there are many personality differences related to the current issue?



I have already answered which I guessed you could not accept them:

Moses spoke with God directly and had even seen God, did any reporters said and witnessed that Osama have spoken to God and seen God directly?

Moses won almost every battle but Osama lost almost every battle throughout the world. If God was with Osama, why did he made Osama lost almost every battle?....or....do you wish Osama won every battle?

Miraculous powers bestowed on Moses is one of the ways that God showed that He is in charge i.e. "so that the works of God may be manifested that you may believe in Him" - Jesus. Osama did not have any miraculous powers showed that God is not manifested in him,

Why not? Good righteous leaders as seen in the Bible usually died from old age but evil leaders usually died much younger, good examples are Abraham, Joshua, David, Solomon etc. If one compares the good kings ad bad kings of Israel, you will realized that good kings lasted much longer than bad kings. And many bad kings died violently:

The Transfiguration was not a vision in which Moses appeared before the apostles eyes whereas Osama have never been reported to appear before his men after his death in real or in vision.

God in the OT usually rewarded good people with blessings which usually comes with land, abundance and riches. Osama was not blessed with such blessings of land, abundance and riches even though he was the son of a rich Arabian.

Moses following God's instructions was direct and valid and was directed at evil people whereas Osama followed his God's command indirectly and whose killing was directed at anyone good or bad in order to further his religious agenda.

Moses lead his people to the Holy Land whereas Osama did not lead anyone to their Holy Land in Mecca or Jerusalem.

Moses was a prophet, Osama was not known as a prophet.

Moses received direct instructions from God regarding the Ten Commandments whereas Osama believed he received commandments by reading the Koran which was indirectly from his God.

To summarize why Moses is highly regarded as a righteous man because he is a man of God doing God's will compared to Osama:

1. Moses spoke with God and have seen God. God even called him friend. Osama none.

2. Moses won almost every battle, Osama almost none.

3. Moses had divine miraculous powers, Osama none,

4. Moses lived long life and died of old age. Osama had a shorter life and died violently.

5. Moses appeared before Jesus, Osama no.

6. Moses was rewarded with God's blessings, abundance, riches, power land, Osama hardly any.

7. Moses killed evil people as instructed by God, Osama killed anyone good or evil.

8. Moses lead God's people to the Holy Land. Osama didn't. Without Moses, there will not be Jerusalem, Israel and the Jews.

9. Moses gave the Jews and God's people the Ten Commandments. Without Moses, there won't be any Ten commandments and the commandments of Jesus to love God with all your heart, soul and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself. Osama gave none.

Most of all, almost all Muslims do not hold Osama in high regards, they do not see him as the "son" or prophet of their God. However, almost all Christians and Jews and even Muslims do hold Moses in high regards as a man and prophet of God. This is mainly due to records in the Bible and even the Koran which records Moses as a righteous man doing the will of God. Did the Koran and the Bible record anything about Osama? As such, even if Osama claimed to be doing their God's will by killing infidels, it is not taken seriously by almost anyone including almost all Muslims. If he is not considered credible doing God's will, then he is regarded by all as an outcast killer i.e. a terrorist after his own religious or political agenda.

God Blessed. :pray:

Hi Cheow,

Your arguments are extremely weak as I knew they would be, because no one can justify, or condone the horrendous actions commanded by God and carried out by Moses without perverting, twisting and contorting the basic understanding of Morality!

It is NEVER okay to slaughter innocent women and children, and that is exactly what the Bible says Moses did on command from God. The reason people condemn Osama is because he also ordered the murder of innocent men, women, and children. So, the conclusion remains...Moses and Osama are murderers!

Rose

[CWH]

Hi Cheow,

Your arguments are extremely weak as I knew they would be, because no one can justify, or condone the horrendous actions commanded by God and carried out by Moses without perverting, twisting and contorting the basic understanding of Morality!

It is NEVER okay to slaughter innocent women and children, and that is exactly what the Bible says Moses did on command from God. The reason people condemn Osama is because he also ordered the murder of innocent men, women, and children. So, the conclusion remains...Moses and Osama are murderers!

Rose

Likewise using your logic, there is no difference between American soldiers (America presidents in this case) and Moses and Osama as they are murderers with the killing of thousands of innocent men, women, and children with the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the various wars such as Korean war, Vietnam war, Iraqi war, Afghan war etc. Why do you think American soldiers (American presidents in this case) are more moral than Moses and Osama?

In war, killings are legalized but terrorism is considered as murders and iliegal as it is undeclared war. As such Osama is declared a terrorist.

May God Bless Us. :pray:

[Rose]

Likewise using your logic, there is no difference between American soldiers (America presidents in this case) and Moses and Osama as they are murderers with the killing of thousands of innocent men, women, and children with the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the various wars such as Korean war, Vietnam war, Iraqi war, Afghan war etc. Why do you think American soldiers (American presidents in this case) are more moral than Moses and Osama?

In war, killings are legalized but terrorism is considered as murders and iliegal as it is undeclared war. As such Osama is declared a terrorist.

May God Bless Us. :pray:

Who said I agreed with the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, even though Japan attack us I still think their could have been a better way. I think President Truman is to be held responsible for the killing of all those innocent people, just the same as I hold Moses responsible for all those thousands of innocent men, women and children he had killed.

Many of the killings that Moses carried out were against people they were not at war with, the only reason given for the murders is because they were idol worshipers, just like Osama's reasoning.

Rose

[CWH]

Who said I agreed with the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, even though Japan attack us I still think their could have been a better way. I think President Truman is to be held responsible for the killing of all those innocent people, just the same as I hold Moses responsible for all those thousands of innocent men, women and children he had killed.

Many of the killings that Moses carried out were against people they were not at war with, the only reason given for the murders is because they were idol worshipers, just like Osama's reasoning.

Rose

The thinking at that time was that the Japanese were very defensive and will fight to the last man, and if the war was not to end soon, thousands and thousands of Japanese civilians and soldiers and American soldiers were going to die. There were many thousands of casualties on both sides fighting in the Pacific war, what more to say fighting on the Japanese mainland. There was no point negotiating peace and Japanese surrender with the Japanese as the Japanese regards surrender as a very shameful thing. The decision to drop the atomic bombs to end the war was a prudent thing to do then. Prolonging the war will only caused more sufferings to both sides and the civilians in the Japanese occupied territories. I am amazed that you prefer WW2 to be prolonged at the expanse of thousands and thousands of casualties and sufferings. Given the chance, anyone will want to kill Hitler and Emperor Hirohito and end WW2 thus saving millions of lives. My personal question to you is, given the chance to kill Moses and Osama and thus save thousands of innocent men, women and children, would you do it? If no, you are prolonging and approving their killings, what do you do then? Negotiate with them?....Forget it!

Yous said, "I think President Truman is to be held responsible for the killing of all those innocent people, just the same as I hold Moses responsible for all those thousands of innocent men, women and children he had killed". Were they really innocent? What about those that were not innocent?...let them be killed? I am putting all these questions to stimulate thoughts into the following questions:
1. Is killing always bad in a world filled with good and evil people?
2. Is peace always good in a world filled with good and evil?


May the peace of God be with everyone of you.:pray:

[Rose]

The thinking at that time was that the Japanese were very defensive and will fight to the last man, and if the war was not to end soon, thousands and thousands of Japanese civilians and soldiers and American soldiers were going to die. There were many thousands of casualties on both sides fighting in the Pacific war, what more to say fighting on the Japanese mainland. There was no point negotiating peace and Japanese surrender with the Japanese as the Japanese regards surrender as a very shameful thing. The decision to drop the atomic bombs to end the war was a prudent thing to do then. Prolonging the war will only caused more sufferings to both sides and the civilians in the Japanese occupied territories. I am amazed that you prefer WW2 to be prolonged at the expanse of thousands and thousands of casualties and sufferings. Given the chance, anyone will want to kill Hitler and Emperor Hirohito and end WW2 thus saving millions of lives. My personal question to you is, given the chance to kill Moses and Osama and thus save thousands of innocent men, women and children, would you do it? If no, you are prolonging and approving their killings, what do you do then? Negotiate with them?....Forget it!

Of course I think that Osama should have been killed for his crimes, and I feel the same way about Moses.


Yous said, "I think President Truman is to be held responsible for the killing of all those innocent people, just the same as I hold Moses responsible for all those thousands of innocent men, women and children he had killed". Were they really innocent? What about those that were not innocent?...let them be killed? I am putting all these questions to stimulate thoughts into the following questions:
1. Is killing always bad in a world filled with good and evil people?
2. Is peace always good in a world filled with good and evil?


May the peace of God be with everyone of you.:pray:

My focus right now is on the killing of innocent men, women and children, and I know for a fact that babies and children are always innocent. The Bible says that Moses directed the slaughter of babies and children, and for that I consider him a murderer...the same as Osama.

1. No, killing is not always bad if it's done for protection.
2. Yes, peace is always good, but it doesn't mean people don't protect themselves from evil people.

Rose

[CWH]

Of course I think that Osama should have been killed for his crimes, and I feel the same way about Moses.

My focus right now is on the killing of innocent men, women and children, and I know for a fact that babies and children are always innocent. The Bible says that Moses directed the slaughter of babies and children, and for that I consider him a murderer...the same as Osama.

1. No, killing is not always bad if it's done for protection.
2. Yes, peace is always good, but it doesn't mean people don't protect themselves from evil people.

Rose

Thanks for your response Rose and I am glad that you are making some progress here when you said that Osama and Moses should be killed. I used to agree on that but unfortunately evidence shows that killing them will not solve the problem. Osama was killed but his henchman took over and terrorism still continues to terrorize the world. So now, we will have to kill his henchman....seems like killings will never end. Killing Osama will also caused sufferings to his innocent wives and children... how now? But are they really innocent by keeping Osama? We all agree that Osama is evil and should be killed, now we are thinking like Moses, kill all the evil people and the problem will be solved. Same if we managed to kill Hitler, it will not end WW2 as his henchman will take over. Killing them does not mean all wars and killings will never happened again. What I am saying here is that as long as there are evil people in this world, there will be wars and killings. There will be no peace unless all evils are got rid off. The simple equation is:

World = good + evil
Kill good = evil + world
Kill evil = good + world

The question right now is how do we got rid of all evils? Humanly impossible but nothing is impossible with God. No wonder we have no peace in this world! Logically true, how can we have real peace if there are evils in this world such as crimes, sin, hatred, cruelty, wars etc.? Isn't that what Jesus is teaching us in all his parables - the good will eventually be saved and evil condemned. And that's what the Bible is all about....wars with good and evil with the eventual triumph of good over evil. So Moses was helping us by ridding evil. I agree that we all view killing children and babies are bad but why do people still do that in wars? Have we ever spare a thought that these children and babies due to their evil upbringings and genes with revenge in their hearts may become the future hitlers and osamas. Perhaps, God saw that during Moses time and ordered the killings of "innocent" women, children and babies so that the world will be a better place. God after all can saved and even reincarnate (if you believe in reincarnation) what he ordered killed unlike humans.

May the Peace of God be with everyone of you.:pray:

[Rose]

The question right now is how do we got rid of all evils? Humanly impossible but nothing is impossible with God. No wonder we have no peace in this world! Logically true, how can we have real peace if there are evils in this world such as crimes, sin, hatred, cruelty, wars etc.? Isn't that what Jesus is teaching us in all his parables - the good will eventually be saved and evil condemned. And that's what the Bible is all about....wars with good and evil with the eventual triumph of good over evil. So Moses was helping us by ridding evil. I agree that we all view killing children and babies are bad but why do people still do that in wars? Have we ever spare a thought that these children and babies due to their evil upbringings and genes with revenge in their hearts may become the future hitlers and osamas. Perhaps, God saw that during Moses time and ordered the killings of "innocent" women, children and babies so that the world will be a better place. God after all can saved and even reincarnate (if you believe in reincarnation) what he ordered killed unlike humans.

May the Peace of God be with everyone of you.:pray:

That's a huge problem with war, innocent people always end up getting killed, especially women and children who always suffer the most. There is a big difference though between innocent people getting killed as a side effect of war, and the direct command that women, children and babies be slaughtered, which is what Moses ordered. That is why I compared Moses to Osama, because Osama was a terrorist who ordered the murder of thousands of innocent men, women and children, just like Moses!

All the best,
Rose

[David M]

Hi Rose and Cheow

How do we rid the world of evil? It is too big a problem for man to solve. Why will men and women bother to think about doing this when they do not recognize that what they are doing is evil? It does not make any difference how much we try to educate people. Those who are blind to their own evil will not be taught by those who recognize all evil for what it is. Unless the world-order changes and there is government with the power to introduce world-wide reform, then there is no hope for mankind.

We are given hope because God has declared (as confirmed by Paul in Acts 17:31) Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained;

What are you going to say about all those who are not judged accptable to be in the Kingdom? Are you going to accuse Jesus of killing people for judging them unacceptable? We are all guilty and condemned, but through belief, we can be saved.

Very young children are innocent and it is truly tragic when the innocent are killed. We are warned against preventing children coming to Jesus, and as we are warned, if we do, we might as well put a millstone around our necks and throw ourselves into the sea, because Jesus will condemn us at the judgement sea for misdirecting children.

Cheow has more or less said the same as I have said elsewhere on the forum, we cannot limit the power and grace of God to raise innocent people to have a second chance. There will be time in the millennium age to come. We should worry about ourselves and helping others to see the error of their ways and come to knowledge of God and His promises and the opportunity to be saved, otherwise all these people having no real hope, and are without God in the World.

How innocent do you think idolatrous people are? The parents will indoctrinate their children to folllow after idolatry. At what point do children lose their innocense?

God was very open and clear. The first two commandments are: Do not worship other gods and do not worship idols (graven images).

God is very clear that worshipping other gods and idols are an abomination to Him and God hates those that do such things.

God's chosen nation were supposed to be examples of living by these commandments and yet we see how they failed to live by them perfectly and how easily they were lead astray. What hope is there of ridding the world of idolarty and false gods? It will take something of epic proportions to bring about change.

The numbers of innocent people killed in the Bible appear large, but are nothing compared to the millions who are dying innocently at the hands of men in the times we live and throughout the ages. If God did appear to be harsh in His judgement, in which He was being true to His word and was being just according to His Word, how many more innocent lives would have been lost if God had not done what He did? It is not much different to removing cancer; unless the whole of the cancer is removed, the cancer continues to grow and it comes back. That is exactly what happened to Israel when they did not purge the land completely. God could have purged the land without involving His people at all and we know that God fought for them anyway, so Moses should not be blamed unnecessarily. The people were involved to demonstrate their faith in God to help them.

Unfortunately, human thinking is not going to lay the blame with man and will lay the blame elsewhere. Unfortunately Rose you consider the Bible to be the work of men to the point where you have absolutely no reason to accept there is a God at all and therefore you have no-one else to blame than Moses for the incidents you have cited. If God is of man's imagination as you have more or less said so in another thread, you cannot even blame God for what is a work of fiction and for what God is supposed to have done. I will argue the Bible from the Bible otherwise there is no point to these arguments at all. My only purpose is to keep objecting to the lies you are promulgating against believing in God and the message God has left on record.

We are agreed in another thread that man is to blame for lack of equality of women, and you are close to accepting that man is to blame for all the world's problems and is suffering the consequences. Any punishment metered out by God is man's fault for his disobedience and if that involves innocent children getting killed, you have to blame man and not God. The feast of the Passover in the night the Angel of Death passed over meant the people had to mark the door lintels and posts with blood or else they would also suffer the consequences of losing their first born. Whose fault was it if the their first born got killed?

The Bible gives us all the instruction we need, it is our manual for life. It is full of lessons, and unless we put on our spiritual spectacles and understand the language of scripture, essential lessons that are taught in the Old Testament will go unnoticed and so much more besides.

I shall continue to contribute as long as I think someone else can benefit from reading our opposite points of view.


All the best.

David

[Rose]

Hi Rose and Cheow

How do we rid the world of evil? It is too big a problem for man to solve. Why will men and women bother to think about doing this when they do not recognize that what they are doing is evil? It does not make any difference how much we try to educate people. Those who are blind to their own evil will not be taught by those who recognize all evil for what it is. Unless the world-order changes and there is government with the power to introduce world-wide reform, then there is no hope for mankind.

We are given hope because God has declared (as confirmed by Paul in Acts 17:31) Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained;

What are you going to say about all those who are not judged accptable to be in the Kingdom? Are you going to accuse Jesus of killing people for judging them unacceptable? We are all guilty and condemned, but through belief, we can be saved.

Very young children are innocent and it is truly tragic when the innocent are killed. We are warned against preventing children coming to Jesus, and as we are warned, if we do, we might as well put a millstone around our necks and throw ourselves into the sea, because Jesus will condemn us at the judgement sea for misdirecting children.
Good morning David, :yo:

I agree, that's why I think it is such an abomination for the Bible to declare that God commanded the murder of innocent children! :eek: On one hand Jesus held children in high regard, but on the other hand the god he called father didn't.


Cheow has more or less said the same as I have said elsewhere on the forum, we cannot limit the power and grace of God to raise innocent people to have a second chance. There will be time in the millennium age to come. We should worry about ourselves and helping others to see the error of their ways and come to knowledge of God and His promises and the opportunity to be saved, otherwise all these people having no real hope, and are without God in the World.

How innocent do you think idolatrous people are? The parents will indoctrinate their children to folllow after idolatry. At what point do children lose their innocense?

God was very open and clear. The first two commandments are: Do not worship other gods and do not worship idols (graven images).

God is very clear that worshipping other gods and idols are an abomination to Him and God hates those that do such things.

The only crime idolatrous people are guilty of - if you want to call it a crime - is not giving Yahweh the credit he is demanding in the Bible of being the creator of heaven and earth. I guess Yahweh has such a big ego that he can't stand for anyone to not acknowledge his greatness.


God's chosen nation were supposed to be examples of living by these commandments and yet we see how they failed to live by them perfectly and how easily they were lead astray. What hope is there of ridding the world of idolarty and false gods? It will take something of epic proportions to bring about change.

The numbers of innocent people killed in the Bible appear large, but are nothing compared to the millions who are dying innocently at the hands of men in the times we live and throughout the ages. If God did appear to be harsh in His judgement, in which He was being true to His word and was being just according to His Word, how many more innocent lives would have been lost if God had not done what He did? It is not much different to removing cancer; unless the whole of the cancer is removed, the cancer continues to grow and it comes back. That is exactly what happened to Israel when they did not purge the land completely. God could have purged the land without involving His people at all and we know that God fought for them anyway, so Moses should not be blamed unnecessarily. The people were involved to demonstrate their faith in God to help them.
I guess Yahweh is a bad physician and did a pretty poor job of removing the cancer. First he kills everyone on the planet with a Flood, except righteous Noah and his family, but that didn't work, so he destroys the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, but that didn't work and on and on it goes...one bloody mess after another, ending up in Revelation with more killing!


Unfortunately, human thinking is not going to lay the blame with man and will lay the blame elsewhere. Unfortunately Rose you consider the Bible to be the work of men to the point where you have absolutely no reason to accept there is a God at all and therefore you have no-one else to blame than Moses for the incidents you have cited. If God is of man's imagination as you have more or less said so in another thread, you cannot even blame God for what is a work of fiction and for what God is supposed to have done. I will argue the Bible from the Bible otherwise there is no point to these arguments at all. My only purpose is to keep objecting to the lies you are promulgating against believing in God and the message God has left on record.

That's right! I don't need to blame god, because the Bible proves by its horrendous immorality that he doesn't exist.

I would appreciate it if you would name one lie I have promulgated against believing in God! All the reasons I give come straight from the pages of the Bible, so before you call someone a liar I hope you have good proof. :mad:


We are agreed in another thread that man is to blame for lack of equality of women, and you are close to accepting that man is to blame for all the world's problems and is suffering the consequences. Any punishment metered out by God is man's fault for his disobedience and if that involves innocent children getting killed, you have to blame man and not God. The feast of the Passover in the night the Angel of Death passed over meant the people had to mark the door lintels and posts with blood or else they would also suffer the consequences of losing their first born. Whose fault was it if the their first born got killed?

The Bible gives us all the instruction we need, it is our manual for life. It is full of lessons, and unless we put on our spiritual spectacles and understand the language of scripture, essential lessons that are taught in the Old Testament will go unnoticed and so much more besides.

I shall continue to contribute as long as I think someone else can benefit from reading our opposite points of view.


All the best.

David

I'm not close to believing...I DO believe that man is the cause of the worlds problems, there is no god to lay the blame on, it's all mans (women's too) fault!

Thanks for chatting,
Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Rose and Cheow

How do we rid the world of evil? It is too big a problem for man to solve. Why will men and women bother to think about doing this when they do not recognize that what they are doing is evil? It does not make any difference how much we try to educate people. Those who are blind to their own evil will not be taught by those who recognize all evil for what it is. Unless the world-order changes and there is government with the power to introduce world-wide reform, then there is no hope for mankind.

Good morning David, :tea:

I don't understand you point of view at all. I've known thousands of people throughout my 52 years on this planet, and I cannot think of a single one that I would categorize as "evil." Maybe that's because I didn't know Hitler or any other famous criminals, but even so I would probably classify them as having done "evil things" but not "evil" themselves. I think your view of humanity has been warped by Christian indoctrination. No offense, I'm just talking about your idea that people are evil. I don't think that is true at all. On the contrary, in my experience I have found people are in general VERY VERY GOOD! I hitch-hiked all around this country in 1988 and everywhere I went I met people who wanted to help. They gave me food, shelter, money, friendship. It was a most amazing time. It permanently convinced me that people are, in general, very good.

And I have no idea why you would say there is no hope for mankind. That would be true only if we put our hope in God. Then yes, we would have no hope because God would let us all die miserable deaths by disease and famine. Just look at history. When we had no antibiotics, folks would pray to God and he would do nothing and just let us die by the thousands like dogs. Then humans learned how to make antibiotics and now we can have real hope that we won't die from those diseases. As long as we trusted God, we died. As soon as we began taking care of our selves we had real hope and better lives.



We are given hope because God has declared (as confirmed by Paul in Acts 17:31) Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained;

How does that give anyone hope? Every generation that came before has lived and died without seeing that "hope" fulfilled, so it did nothing for them ... their "hope" was in vain. Unless you are talking about the "hope" of seeing their "enemies" suffereing punishment from God! But I have no hope like that because I have no enemies!



What are you going to say about all those who are not judged accptable to be in the Kingdom? Are you going to accuse Jesus of killing people for judging them unacceptable? We are all guilty and condemned, but through belief, we can be saved.

According to the Bible, everyone begins as "unacceptable" and the only reason someone becomes "acceptable" is because of something Jesus did. Therefore, everyone remains just as "unacceptable" as everyone else but some get free tickets to go to Heaven despite the fact that they are actually unacceptable. There's no justice in the Gospel. Some unacceptable people go heaven while others get excluded. It's just not fair nor just.



Very young children are innocent and it is truly tragic when the innocent are killed. We are warned against preventing children coming to Jesus, and as we are warned, if we do, we might as well put a millstone around our necks and throw ourselves into the sea, because Jesus will condemn us at the judgement sea for misdirecting children.

Cheow has more or less said the same as I have said elsewhere on the forum, we cannot limit the power and grace of God to raise innocent people to have a second chance. There will be time in the millennium age to come. We should worry about ourselves and helping others to see the error of their ways and come to knowledge of God and His promises and the opportunity to be saved, otherwise all these people having no real hope, and are without God in the World.

What "hope in God" does anyone have? Everyone lives and dies the same. There is no difference for Christians. God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. He spends most of his time doing everything he can to convince people that he doesn't exist.

Concerning children: If it is wrong to kill children, why did God order it? And for that matter, why is God so enamoured with VIOLENCE? He could have set things up any way he wanted, but he chose to populate Canaan with people so that he could order his people to chop them and their little babies into mince-meat. What's up with that? Why would God choose to set things up this way?



How innocent do you think idolatrous people are? The parents will indoctrinate their children to folllow after idolatry. At what point do children lose their innocense?

So you think that the Canaanites were more sinful than other people? That doesn't sound right.



God was very open and clear. The first two commandments are: Do not worship other gods and do not worship idols (graven images).

God is very clear that worshipping other gods and idols are an abomination to Him and God hates those that do such things.

God's chosen nation were supposed to be examples of living by these commandments and yet we see how they failed to live by them perfectly and how easily they were lead astray. What hope is there of ridding the world of idolarty and false gods? It will take something of epic proportions to bring about change.

Ha! That's so funny. Modern scientific skepticism has done a very good job of "ridding the world of idolatry and false gods!" How many people worship Zeus these days? How many people worship Apollo? Thor?

We have gotten rid of almost all the gods ever invented. Only a few left to go ... :winking0071:



Unfortunately, human thinking is not going to lay the blame with man and will lay the blame elsewhere. Unfortunately Rose you consider the Bible to be the work of men to the point where you have absolutely no reason to accept there is a God at all and therefore you have no-one else to blame than Moses for the incidents you have cited. If God is of man's imagination as you have more or less said so in another thread, you cannot even blame God for what is a work of fiction and for what God is supposed to have done. I will argue the Bible from the Bible otherwise there is no point to these arguments at all. My only purpose is to keep objecting to the lies you are promulgating against believing in God and the message God has left on record.

Neither you nor I have access to any kind of "thinking" other than "human thinking."

But you are wrong. I will blame humans for all sorts of things, most notably, inventing stories about God acting like a Bronze-age tribal war god. I put that blame squarely on the shoulders of humans.

As for your faith in the Bible - you have yet to give any reason for that. Why not the Koran? The Book of Mormon? Granted, the Bible is better than either of those books, but you have not established your reasons. And this is important because the mere fact that the Bible has some validity does not justify your claim that it is the inerrant and infallible Word of God. Indeed, I think that is impossible because it has obvious errors.



We are agreed in another thread that man is to blame for lack of equality of women, and you are close to accepting that man is to blame for all the world's problems and is suffering the consequences. Any punishment metered out by God is man's fault for his disobedience and if that involves innocent children getting killed, you have to blame man and not God. The feast of the Passover in the night the Angel of Death passed over meant the people had to mark the door lintels and posts with blood or else they would also suffer the consequences of losing their first born. Whose fault was it if the their first born got killed?

It's good that you agree that man is to blame for the bias against woman. Now complete that thought and note that the Bible has a strong male bias. Therefore, the bible is the work of man and not the word of God. See how easy that is?



The Bible gives us all the instruction we need, it is our manual for life. It is full of lessons, and unless we put on our spiritual spectacles and understand the language of scripture, essential lessons that are taught in the Old Testament will go unnoticed and so much more besides.

Oh no it most certainly does not give any "instructions" - on the contrary, we bring our innate morality to the Bible and interpret it accordingly.

Belief in the Bible as the inerrant and infallible Word of God corrupts both the mind and the morals of those who adhere to that doctrine.



I shall continue to contribute as long as I think someone else can benefit from reading our opposite points of view.


All the best.

David
Great! I think your contributions are very valuable.

:signthankspin:

Richard

[David M]

Hello Richard
If my comments are provoking you to contradict my statements it is probably because I have not explained my reasons fully. Your opposition helps bring these points in the open.


Good morning David, :tea:
I don't understand you point of view at all. I've known thousands of people throughout my 52 years on this planet, and I cannot think of a single one that I would categorize as "evil." Maybe that's because I didn't know Hitler or any other famous criminals, but even so I would probably classify them as having done "evil things" but not "evil" themselves. I think your view of humanity has been warped by Christian indoctrination. No offense, I'm just talking about your idea that people are evil. I don't think that is true at all. On the contrary, in my experience I have found people are in general VERY VERY GOOD! I hitch-hiked all around this country in 1988 and everywhere I went I met people who wanted to help. They gave me food, shelter, money, friendship. It was a most amazing time. It permanently convinced me that people are, in general, very good.
We all have the inateness to do evil. Even those who you respect and can be like wolves in sheep's clothing when put to the test. Like you, I have experienced the goodness of others and it is wonderful to see what the human spirit is capable of. Jesus is the only man to have been perfect with all the best attributes you can think of applying to him; humility being one of them. I do not say humans are evil all of the time. I try to do good, but evil is ever present. Paul sums this up exactly.
Romans 7
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?


And I have no idea why you would say there is no hope for mankind. That would be true only if we put our hope in God. Then yes, we would have no hope because God would let us all die miserable deaths by disease and famine. Just look at history. When we had no antibiotics, folks would pray to God and he would do nothing and just let us die by the thousands like dogs. Then humans learned how to make antibiotics and now we can have real hope that we won't die from those diseases. As long as we trusted God, we died. As soon as we began taking care of our selves we had real hope and better lives.
There is hope for mankind. Without God, you have no one else to put your trust in than man, but God teaches us the opposite. There is no hope for man if we trust in man to solve the world's problems. I have quoted elsewhere that unless God intervenes, no flesh (no one) will be saved and mankind will destroy himself. God warns us not to believe in lying words which come from man. I would like to trust everyone, but experience has shown that very few people can be trusted. Despite our best intentions we break promises. You can only trust someone who does not break their promise and I have seen nothing to say God has broken one promise. (Take this as one of my reasons for my belief).


How does that give anyone hope? Every generation that came before has lived and died without seeing that "hope" fulfilled, so it did nothing for them ... their "hope" was in vain. Unless you are talking about the "hope" of seeing their "enemies" suffereing punishment from God! But I have no hope like that because I have no enemies!
As Paul writes; 1 Cor 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. My hope is not necessarily realized in this life.



According to the Bible, everyone begins as "unacceptable" and the only reason someone becomes "acceptable" is because of something Jesus did. Therefore, everyone remains just as "unacceptable" as everyone else but some get free tickets to go to Heaven despite the fact that they are actually unacceptable. There's no justice in the Gospel. Some unacceptable people go heaven while others get excluded. It's just not fair nor just.
What authority do you have to say; "some unacceptable people go the heaven"? You are acting as judge when you are in no position to. I know that my acceptance is only made possible by Jesus who through my association with him in baptism and belief and who will judge me, is able to present me faultless before God. We cannot limit the mercy of God, yet we should be under no doubt that not everyone will be found acceptable. When you say it is not fair; that is your weak human reasoning that is being applied. No offence intended; I would not trust your judgement or that of any other human being.


What "hope in God" does anyone have? Everyone lives and dies the same. There is no difference for Christians. God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. He spends most of his time doing everything he can to convince people that he doesn't exist.
I know you have said this before. I know of many others who say the same and yet there are many others who will say that God has answered their prayers. I do not expect God to answer all my prayers for I know that I do not always ask for the right things. I leave God to know what is best. God can simply answer a prayer by simply helping me to open His word at the right place in which to find the answer. This might sound too simplistic for some but then, 1 Cor 1:27 God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;


Concerning children: If it is wrong to kill children, why did God order it? And for that matter, why is God so enamoured with VIOLENCE? He could have set things up any way he wanted, but he chose to populate Canaan with people so that he could order his people to chop them and their little babies into mince-meat. What's up with that? Why would God choose to set things up this way?
It is wrong for us to kill as that violates the commandment; "thou shalt not kill". This does not apply to God. God kills but not unjustly. I know you do not want to accept this, but that is the way it is.
God could have set things up another way; when you can make your own planet you can set things up the way you want them. You blame God for taking vengeance on behalf of His people. Vengenace is a response; humans are in violation of committing the offences first. First blame man before you blame God.


So you think that the Canaanites were more sinful than other people? That doesn't sound right.
This does not sound right to me; I think you have got what I said the wrong way round. The Canaanites should have been less sinful, but they were not without their sinful acts which the Bible makes plain for us all to see. This is why there are lessons to be learnt, so that we do not follow suit. God has put all this on record for a purpose.


Ha! That's so funny. Modern scientific skepticism has done a very good job of "ridding the world of idolatry and false gods!" How many people worship Zeus these days? How many people worship Apollo? Thor?
So you think believing in Evolution gets rid of idol worship; only in the mind of those who believe it. You talk a lot of sense most of the time and then you fall down by say things that appear ridiculous to me. Zeus and the Greek gods and the myths that they were have gone, but if you look around the world you will find plenty of idol worshippers. Other gods have replaced the ones that have gone. Idolatry is alive and kicking. Look at the graven images in other religions. Possessions are treated (unknowingly)as idols you cannot get away from it.


We have gotten rid of almost all the gods ever invented. Only a few left to go ... :winking0071:
So you admit that there are gods to got rid of so "Modern scientific skepticism" has not done the full job you claim.


Neither you nor I have access to any kind of "thinking" other than "human thinking."
I disagree, I have access to higher thinking as God has revealed in His word, which you refuse to accept or are just blind to. Maybe in time, your spiritual sight might be restored.


But you are wrong. I will blame humans for all sorts of things, most notably, inventing stories about God acting like a Bronze-age tribal war god. I put that blame squarely on the shoulders of humans.
How can I be wrong when you are now agreeing with me that all the blame rests on the shoulders of humans? That is what I have been saying and that is how you should read into the Bible; look for what man has done wrong first.


As for your faith in the Bible - you have yet to give any reason for that. Why not the Koran? The Book of Mormon? Granted, the Bible is better than either of those books, but you have not established your reasons. And this is important because the mere fact that the Bible has some validity does not justify your claim that it is the inerrant and infallible Word of God. Indeed, I think that is impossible because it has obvious errors..
I have given you one reason in a reply above and I have given my reasons throughout my post which you have read. I have no one single reason. I have said there is only one real test by which you can prove God if you are going to discard all the evidence around you which you can see with your eyes in the things that God has made. The only proof of God is prophecy; who can tell you a thing before it happens?



It's good that you agree that man is to blame for the bias against woman. Now complete that thought and note that the Bible has a strong male bias. Therefore, the bible is the work of man and not the word of God. See how easy that is? ..
You are wrongly assuming the Bible is the work of man when the Bible explains itself as being the inspired word of God written through men (I agree this is male orientated, which is not the same as bias as I understand it).


Oh no it most certainly does not give any "instructions" - on the contrary, we bring our innate morality to the Bible and interpret it accordingly...
You do and that is your problem. To quote the obvious verse which the Bible explains itself:
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
There you have the explanation as I referred to that scripture (the earliest documents) were inspired and they are in part "instruction in righteousness".
Please can you back up your statments using scripture, otherwise you are just a fallable humanist with faulty logic and reasoning (no offense intended).


Belief in the Bible as the inerrant and infallible Word of God corrupts both the mind and the morals of those who adhere to that doctrine. ..
It is not as bad as those who minds are corrupted by not being by scholars and look to other ways to get their morals. Of course there are those who have perverted scripture and have "wrested scripture to their own destruction". This does not mean scripture is wrong; just the opposite. You rebuttals only go to make me see that the scripture is far superior to man's thinking.



Great! I think your contributions are very valuable.

:signthankspin:

Richard

Thank you for saying so. It is a pleasure to have such an open-minded forum, which you have provided, to which I can contribute.


David

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hello Richard
If my comments are provoking you to contradict my statements it is probably because I have not explained my reasons fully. Your opposition helps bring these points in the open.

Hey there David,

Another possibility is that your reasons may not be justified by logic and facts! :p

And that's why discussing them is very helpful for all concerned. We will be able to judge which stand up under scrutiny.



We all have the inateness to do evil. Even those who you respect and can be like wolves in sheep's clothing when put to the test. Like you, I have experienced the goodness of others and it is wonderful to see what the human spirit is capable of. Jesus is the only man to have been perfect with all the best attributes you can think of applying to him; humility being one of them. I do not say humans are evil all of the time. I try to do good, but evil is ever present. Paul sums this up exactly.
Romans 7
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Yes, people do things that are good, evil, and indifferent. But we all know that people are much more inclined towards good rather than evil, since otherwise the world would be much worse than it is. Think about it. How many people have you known in your life? How many of them did good? How many did evil? If I had to guess the statistics, I would say that people do good over evil about 99 to 1 out of a 100.




And I have no idea why you would say there is no hope for mankind. That would be true only if we put our hope in God. Then yes, we would have no hope because God would let us all die miserable deaths by disease and famine. Just look at history. When we had no antibiotics, folks would pray to God and he would do nothing and just let us die by the thousands like dogs. Then humans learned how to make antibiotics and now we can have real hope that we won't die from those diseases. As long as we trusted God, we died. As soon as we began taking care of our selves we had real hope and better lives.
There is hope for mankind. Without God, you have no one else to put your trust in than man, but God teaches us the opposite. There is no hope for man if we trust in man to solve the world's problems. I have quoted elsewhere that unless God intervenes, no flesh (no one) will be saved and mankind will destroy himself. God warns us not to believe in lying words which come from man. I would like to trust everyone, but experience has shown that very few people can be trusted. Despite our best intentions we break promises. You can only trust someone who does not break their promise and I have seen nothing to say God has broken one promise. (Take this as one of my reasons for my belief).

You didn't answer my point. People died when they trusted in God. They survive only by trusting in themselves. This is historical fact.

You say that God has never broken a promise. I find that utterly unbelievable. Could you name FIVE PROMISES that God has given and never broken? And when you do so, please name promises that are testable as true or false. Don't say things like "He saved my soul" because there is no way to prove that true or false.

For example, the Bible promises that God will provide believers with all the physical requirements for life in this world. But he does not. That's a pretty huge broken promise if you ask me.

Indeed, I do not know of a single verifiable promise that God has kept. If there were such a promise, and it could be verified, it would be proof of God.



As Paul writes; 1 Cor 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. My hope is not necessarily realized in this life.

Yes, of course. You were talking about the final day of judgment giving you "hope." So obviously, it doesn't give you any hope in this life. It's all a "pie in the sky" kind of hope. God has abandoned everyone to suffer the same fate "in this life." And that's my point - Christianity does not offer any real hope in this life.




According to the Bible, everyone begins as "unacceptable" and the only reason someone becomes "acceptable" is because of something Jesus did. Therefore, everyone remains just as "unacceptable" as everyone else but some get free tickets to go to Heaven despite the fact that they are actually unacceptable. There's no justice in the Gospel. Some unacceptable people go heaven while others get excluded. It's just not fair nor just.
What authority do you have to say; "some unacceptable people go the heaven"? You are acting as judge when you are in no position to. I know that my acceptance is only made possible by Jesus who through my association with him in baptism and belief and who will judge me, is able to present me faultless before God. We cannot limit the mercy of God, yet we should be under no doubt that not everyone will be found acceptable. When you say it is not fair; that is your weak human reasoning that is being applied. No offence intended; I would not trust your judgement or that of any other human being.

By what authority? I told you - "according to the Bible." Of course, it is really "according to the interpretation of the Bible by traditional Protestant Christianity." I'm not surprised that you interpret things differently, since you are a member of a minority Christian sect that differs from the majority on many points.

The traditional doctrine is that people remain sinners until they are "glorified" after death which then makes them "acceptable" for heaven. Before that point, everyone is equally "unacceptable" but some are "on track" for glorification because God marked them out for salvation (election). It's really quite arbitrary and meaningless if you dig into it. The Reformers (who broke from Catholicism) concluded that everyone is equally unacceptable and no one can even believe the Gospel before they are saved and their hearts regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Of course, your doctrines will be different, but I suspect they might not be logically coherent.




What "hope in God" does anyone have? Everyone lives and dies the same. There is no difference for Christians. God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. He spends most of his time doing everything he can to convince people that he doesn't exist.
I know you have said this before. I know of many others who say the same and yet there are many others who will say that God has answered their prayers. I do not expect God to answer all my prayers for I know that I do not always ask for the right things. I leave God to know what is best. God can simply answer a prayer by simply helping me to open His word at the right place in which to find the answer. This might sound too simplistic for some but then, 1 Cor 1:27 God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;

You will get exactly the same results if you prayed to a Milk Jug:


http://youtu.be/jk6ILZAaAMI

The simple fact is that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. This is one of his biggest "broken promises."




Concerning children: If it is wrong to kill children, why did God order it? And for that matter, why is God so enamoured with VIOLENCE? He could have set things up any way he wanted, but he chose to populate Canaan with people so that he could order his people to chop them and their little babies into mince-meat. What's up with that? Why would God choose to set things up this way?
It is wrong for us to kill as that violates the commandment; "thou shalt not kill". This does not apply to God. God kills but not unjustly. I know you do not want to accept this, but that is the way it is.
God could have set things up another way; when you can make your own planet you can set things up the way you want them. You blame God for taking vengeance on behalf of His people. Vengenace is a response; humans are in violation of committing the offences first. First blame man before you blame God.

Actually, God is not free to "set things up" any way he wants and remain good and righteous. That's the problem. An evil action doesn't become "good" just because it is attributed to God! If that were true, then it is impossible to say that God is good since the word "good" would mean nothing but "whatever God does."

Here is the problem - you begin with the presumption that the Bible is the Word of God and that destroys your ability to judge between good and evil. Please think about this. Suppose you were raised a Muslim and thought the Koran was the Word of God. How could you free yourself from that false belief? It would be impossible if you used the same logic that you apply to the Bible.




Ha! That's so funny. Modern scientific skepticism has done a very good job of "ridding the world of idolatry and false gods!" How many people worship Zeus these days? How many people worship Apollo? Thor?
So you think believing in Evolution gets rid of idol worship; only in the mind of those who believe it. You talk a lot of sense most of the time and then you fall down by say things that appear ridiculous to me. Zeus and the Greek gods and the myths that they were have gone, but if you look around the world you will find plenty of idol worshippers. Other gods have replaced the ones that have gone. Idolatry is alive and kicking. Look at the graven images in other religions. Possessions are treated (unknowingly)as idols you cannot get away from it.

I didn't say "evolution." I said "modern scientific skepticism." And that certainly has freed a lot of people from idolatry. Of course, you are free to expand your concept of "idolatry" and accuse everyone if you like. But the point is that the best path is through education whereas the Bible solution is mass murder. And that didn't even work!




We have gotten rid of almost all the gods ever invented. Only a few left to go ... :winking0071:
So you admit that there are gods to got rid of so "Modern scientific skepticism" has not done the full job you claim.

Of course I admit that there are still "gods" to get rid of. Modern scientific skepticism is a recent advance in human understanding. It will take time for folks to free their minds from false superstitions inherited from our ignorant ancestors.

And remember - you and I agree that 99.9999% of all "gods" and "religions" are false. We differ on only one .... :p




Neither you nor I have access to any kind of "thinking" other than "human thinking."
I disagree, I have access to higher thinking as God has revealed in His word, which you refuse to accept or are just blind to. Maybe in time, your spiritual sight might be restored.

And how do you discern between the "blind" and people with "spiritual sight"? What is your standard if not logic and facts? If you had real "spiritual sight" then you would be able to explain your points and they would stand up under scrutiny. As it is, you are merely asserting that anything that you can't prove is true anyway and would be known "without the use of human reason" if only I had "spiritual sight." That's the same thing all cults say, you know. You might want to think about that. The Mormons say you get a "burning in the bosom" that proves their religion.




But you are wrong. I will blame humans for all sorts of things, most notably, inventing stories about God acting like a Bronze-age tribal war god. I put that blame squarely on the shoulders of humans.
How can I be wrong when you are now agreeing with me that all the blame rests on the shoulders of humans? That is what I have been saying and that is how you should read into the Bible; look for what man has done wrong first.

I don't understand why you continue to miss this point. When I said that men "invented stories about God acting like a Bronze-age tribal war god" you were supposed to understand that I was talking about the BIBLE. You were supposed to understand that I was saying the stories in the Bible were obviously not inspired by God since God would not "invent stories that made God look like a Bronze-age tribal war god."

So yes, man is to "blame" for the primitive view of God in the Bible, and the fact that the Bible presents a primitive view of God proves it is not the "Word of God."




As for your faith in the Bible - you have yet to give any reason for that. Why not the Koran? The Book of Mormon? Granted, the Bible is better than either of those books, but you have not established your reasons. And this is important because the mere fact that the Bible has some validity does not justify your claim that it is the inerrant and infallible Word of God. Indeed, I think that is impossible because it has obvious errors..
I have given you one reason in a reply above and I have given my reasons throughout my post which you have read. I have no one single reason. I have said there is only one real test by which you can prove God if you are going to discard all the evidence around you which you can see with your eyes in the things that God has made. The only proof of God is prophecy; who can tell you a thing before it happens?

What prophecies do you think have been fulfilled? This probably should be discussed in another thread. I think it would be very interesting.




It's good that you agree that man is to blame for the bias against woman. Now complete that thought and note that the Bible has a strong male bias. Therefore, the bible is the work of man and not the word of God. See how easy that is? ..
You are wrongly assuming the Bible is the work of man when the Bible explains itself as being the inspired word of God written through men (I agree this is male orientated, which is not the same as bias as I understand it).

You continue to miss the point. If the Bible has a bias against women, then it is not inspired of God since God cannot be biased. You seem confused on this point. Sometimes you agree there is a bias, sometimes you deny it. But the bias seems totally obvious to me. Men are the head of women. Women must silent and submit to men. Women must not teach or have dominion over men. And on and on it goes. These are teachings in the Bible. Are they biased against women? Are they inspired by God?




Oh no it most certainly does not give any "instructions" - on the contrary, we bring our innate morality to the Bible and interpret it accordingly...
You do and that is your problem. To quote the obvious verse which the Bible explains itself:
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
There you have the explanation as I referred to that scripture (the earliest documents) were inspired and they are in part "instruction in righteousness".
Please can you back up your statments using scripture, otherwise you are just a fallable humanist with faulty logic and reasoning (no offense intended).

Quoting that verse doesn't prove anything. The fact remains that all people, including you, bring their own innate morality to the Bible and interpret it accordingly. The source of your morality is your own moral intuition. You apply that to the Bible. The proof is totally obvious since people had moral intuitions long before there was a Bible!




Belief in the Bible as the inerrant and infallible Word of God corrupts both the mind and the morals of those who adhere to that doctrine. ..
It is not as bad as those who minds are corrupted by not being by scholars and look to other ways to get their morals. Of course there are those who have perverted scripture and have "wrested scripture to their own destruction". This does not mean scripture is wrong; just the opposite. You rebuttals only go to make me see that the scripture is far superior to man's thinking.

The doctrine of infallibility corrupts the mind because it forces people to twist truth to "explain" the obvious errors in the Bible. And it corrupts morals because it forces people to explain why evil is actually "good" when God does it.




Thank you for saying so. It is a pleasure to have such an open-minded forum, which you have provided, to which I can contribute.


David
I'm very glad you are here to share your contributions.

All the best, my friend,

Richard