Why is Sexual Violence not condemned in the Bible?

[Rose]

No matter what ones take on the Bible is, whether it be the inspired Word of God, or an historical account of men’s ideas about God, an undeniable fact remains that the Bible promotes sexual violence against women. I have listed a handful of verses below to show the extreme abuse that women have endured at the hands of men, condoned and promoted in the pages of the Bible without a single reprimand recorded against such barbarism. In each of the passages I have listed, men have inflicted sexual violence against women, and in each of the cases there is not so much as one word of condemnation written against their horrendous deeds.

It is time women and men alike raise their voices denouncing this sexual violence targeted specifically at the female gender. These passages that I have listed are just a few amongst the many contained in the Old Testament part of the Bible, and for the most part are ignored by believers, but what does that say about peoples moral values? The Old Testament contains the whole of the biblical writings of Judaism, and over half of the Christian Bible that Jesus said not one 'jot' or 'tittle' would pass away from. How can it be that all one hears is silence from the religious communities that hold these texts to be God’s moral laws? This is an issue that needs to be dealt with and it’s time the voices of those who care about human rights be heard. Sexual violence in never okay, even when it’s promoted in a book considered by millions to be the Word of God…it’s always WRONG, Wrong, wrong!
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Gen. 19:5-8 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? Bring them out unto us, that we may know them. And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
Num.31:15-18 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Deuteronomy 21:10 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, 11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; 12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; 13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.

Judges 19:23-26 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly. Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. When the men would not listen to his host, the husband seized his concubine and thrust her outside to them. They had relations with her and abused her all night until the following dawn, when they let her go. Then at daybreak the woman came and collapsed at the entrance of the house in which her husband was a guest, where she lay until the morning.

Judges 21:11-12 And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabesh-Gilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan…..14) And Benjamin came again at that time; and they gave them wives which they had saved alive of the women of Jabesh-Gilead: and yet so they sufficed them not….20) Therefore they commanded the children of Benjamin, saying, Go and lie in wait in the vineyards; And see, and, behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin.



As hard as I try I can come to no solid reason as to why sexual violence against women is not condemned in Scripture except to say that those who wrote the Bible did not view those deeds as human rights violations, but then what does that say about biblical morality? At the very least one would think that the many explicit sexual violations against women contained in the Bible should be exposed as examples of man’s wickedness instead of promoted as commands from Yahweh. So, the question remains unanswered as to why the sexual violation of women in the Bible is not condemned? Biblical morality is either right or wrong; it doesn’t change with the times. If it is immoral today to sexually violate a woman, then it was immoral three thousand years ago to sexually violate a woman. Women are humans and have rights over their own bodies just like men do, they are not the property of men as the Bible promotes. It’s time to speak up and condemn human rights violations wherever they are found, even in the "Word of God"!


Rose

[Rose]

Digging a little deeper into the question of why sexual violence and general human rights violations are for the most part ignored in the Bible; I would say the fault primarily lies at the doorstep of fear. The reason I say fear is because of the thought that passes through our minds when we read about the moral abominations that assault our senses in the pages of the Bible, which is: how can a moral God act in immoral ways? Immediately one tries to justify it by saying that God’s ways are higher than our ways and that we are really just misunderstanding God’s intentions…always an excuse. Well, I’m tired of making excuses for God; why not take him at his word? I know if I want to say something I am perfectly capable of saying what I mean so others can understand it…why can’t God? After all, the Bible says he spoke the heavens and earth into existence, so why can’t he speak his intentions as clearly?

Why are people continually saying God means this and God means that, when that’s not what it says in the book that attributed to him? It’s time people stopped making excuses for God…he’s a big boy and is perfectly capable of saying what he means, just because people don’t like it doesn’t mean they should misquote him. Right?

If people want to preach the Bible they should preach what it really says, after all Jesus said not one 'Jot' or 'Tittle' would pass till all be fulfilled. I think after a few truthful sermons on Numbers 31 and Judges 21 the churches would empty out pretty quickly! :lol:

Rose

[Gil]

Howdy Rose,
Not much on subject, but oh well.


Gil > Just a quick note, and I'm out of here again.
Jehovah was a God with two faces. Good and Evil.
An Elohim of twain made One God.

Christianity as I understand it was initiated when Jesus Christ rose from the dead.
The Old Testament prophesied that the seed would come.
The split between Judaism and Christianity should be at the cross.
The old Testament was about the children of darkness and death. It was their story.
It was written by man to man and it revealed the Spirit of the natural man in the flesh.
They were telling the stories of the ancients as to how and why things were the way they were.
Man ( male and female) have their roots in the beasts of the earth. The Animal behaviorisms were passed on legitimately . The male was a stronger bruit, was a hunter ,killer , protector of his own. Even then were the worlds of the beasts and natural man not so different, the one from the other.
The males were always more extroverts by necessity and the female's introversive.
They handled the cooking, children etc. while the males were away.
The males were seen to be the heads of the families. Most of the atrocities were committed not unto their own, but to outsiders.
They did not live in a world of individualism. The were group orientated. The group
was the most important ,not so much the individual.
Enough on that.
Maybe it be for the best that as Christians, we chuck the old Testament into the scrap heap of time and hold dear to the New Testament and covenant.
The children of light are moving into the picture.
The BOC was the new beginning for us in the flesh post AD70.
I Think that evolution should be looked at as the evolution of life.
from lower forms to higher forms, and that includes man.
This earth as I see it is but a stepping stone into the future.

The Law:

The Jews/Pharisees believed that righteousness could only be attained by the keeping of the Law. There was no man in the flesh that was a descendent of the Fallen Adam , where his Spirit was head of the individual or nation as was Israel, that was able to keep the Law. That left but one conclusion/fulfillment or end. Death.
The fulfillment of the Law was Death.
Jesus in the flesh as Messiah would have to die in order to fulfill the Law.
The fulfillment of the Law was in the Judgment rendered.
Jesus kept the whole Law, and with him was righteousness to be found.

It then reverts back to the Spirits.
The Spirit that made covenant of the entire Law, not only the ten commandments
with the children of Israel was the Spirit of Death. ( That of fallen Adam as being a natural man.)
A new covenant could only be taken out after the death of the maker of the first covenant.
Jesus did not take the Law to the cross that death could be defeated, he took the Spirit unto himself that made the covenant of death through the Law to the cross within his own flesh.
The Spirit of Jesus > Jesus Christ was of his Father. The covenant of death came through their Father, of the children of Israel.
Two separate Spirits as Fathers.
The two commandments that were of the covenant of life, are both of Love. Of God and neighbor.
If one can get a handle on Love then keeping the law written into our minds would be easy.
That in itself is about as tough as the Law in stone to keep at times. At least we won't get stoned to death.
The Jews had as individuals, enemies that where also of the circumcision .
They to were neighbors.
Just as in the BOC. The Love commandments are focused on the members of the Body.
There are evil people everywhere .Individuals and nations.
We in the BOC are still in the flesh but not of the flesh.
Being in the flesh , flesh man rules still apply at times.
If they hit you on one cheek ,show them the other also.
The bad side of you. Even in the Church good and evil still abound..

It is only within the BOC that the heavens and earth of old have passed away and
are new heavens and earth to be found.

Gil :pop2:

[Rose]

Another pattern in the Bible that is noteworthy concerning the violation of women’s human rights, is the parallels we see throughout history exposing the fact that it is always men who abuse women and treat them unequally when they are in positions of being rule makers and of leadership.

In ancient societies where the goddess was worshiped, even though women may have had the position of authority, men were never treated as lesser citizens or property…equality was the standard, unlike the dominator model we see recorded in the Bible. This is a key factor in revealing that the Bible was written by men, because it matches exactly what one sees in all male dominated societies, when men have positions of power they tend to suppress women and deny them basic human rights.

It is only when women themselves are able to rally together and demand their equal rights as humans do we see any change in their condition. The God of the Bible has never stood up for women’s rights; in fact quite the opposite has taken place…Scripture is full of rules that take away a woman's equal rights!

Rose

[David M]

Another pattern in the Bible that is noteworthy concerning the violation of women’s human rights, is the parallels we see throughout history exposing the fact that it is always men who abuse women and treat them unequally when they are in positions of being rule makers and of leadership.

In ancient societies where the goddess was worshiped, even though women may have had the position of authority, men were never treated as lesser citizens or property…equality was the standard, unlike the dominator model we see recorded in the Bible. This is a key factor in revealing that the Bible was written by men, because it matches exactly what one sees in all male dominated societies, when men have positions of power they tend to suppress women and deny them basic human rights.

It is only when women themselves are able to rally together and demand their equal rights as humans do we see any change in their condition. The God of the Bible has never stood up for women’s rights; in fact quite the opposite has taken place…Scripture is full of rules that take away a woman's equal rights!

Rose

Hello Rose

You are posting a lot to do with women and women's rights as seen or not seen in the Bible and I am thinking about your post concerning violence towards women though I feel that I shall have to change tack on that as I shall explain though I am still putting my thoughts together and will respond in that thread.

Just a quick reply to this one regarding equal rights. Equal rights is a big issue in the world in which we live under man's rule. I do not think you can say that God has not given women equal opportunity in view of the following statement

Galations 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


When it comes to having rights to be in the kingdom, no one has rights because we are not worthy;"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Nevertheless we all have equal opportunity as the quote states.

So while we can agree on the different roles and responsibilities between men and women, both have equal opportunity to be in the kingdom of God for being one in Christ will receive their reward of eternal life.

If you say that women's rights are not mentioned in the Bible, can you please give me a list of some of the rights of men that are?


All the best,


David

[jce]

Hello Rose

You are posting a lot to do with women and women's rights as seen or not seen in the Bible and I am thinking about your post concerning violence towards women though I feel that I shall have to change tack on that as I shall explain though I am still putting my thoughts together and will respond in that thread.

If you say that women's rights are not mentioned in the Bible, can you please give me a list of some of the rights of men that are?


All the best,


David

Very intriguing closing question David. I would be interested to read an answer to it.

John

[Rose]

Hello Rose

You are posting a lot to do with women and women's rights as seen or not seen in the Bible and I am thinking about your post concerning violence towards women though I feel that I shall have to change tack on that as I shall explain though I am still putting my thoughts together and will respond in that thread.

Just a quick reply to this one regarding equal rights. Equal rights is a big issue in the world in which we live under man's rule. I do not think you can say that God has not given women equal opportunity in view of the following statement

Galations 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


When it comes to having rights to be in the kingdom, no one has rights because we are not worthy;"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Nevertheless we all have equal opportunity as the quote states.

So while we can agree on the different roles and responsibilities between men and women, both have equal opportunity to be in the kingdom of God for being one in Christ will receive their reward of eternal life.

Good morning David :yo:

That quote from Galatians has done nothing to help women, because men interpret it as meaning "spiritually" there is no male or female in Christ. It's all fine and dandy to say we all have equal opportunity in the kingdom of God, but that's hasn't helped women out here on earth. The only way women have earned equal rights is by getting them the hard way, which means teaming up together and demanding equality. Men have never willingly given any rights to women unless they were forced to.

Women make up half the population, and give birth to the other half, which makes it absolutely ludicrous for men to think that women should be in subjection to them!


If you say that women's rights are not mentioned in the Bible, can you please give me a list of some of the rights of men that are?


All the best,


David

Let me begin in Genesis where men are given the right by Yahweh to rule over women, from that initial decree a cascade of rules and laws have issued forth that continue into the New Testament with Paul's declaration that women are to be in subjection to men, which includes keeping silent in church and not teaching a man! Everywhere one looks in Scripture men are given the right to make rules that govern women.

If you really want a list look at the thread I started called The Male Bias of the Bible (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2303-The-Male-Bias-of-the-Bible)I go through many of the biblical passages that deal with womens lack of equality in Scripture.

All the best,
Rose

[Rose]

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by David M http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?p=41953#post41953)
If you say that women's rights are not mentioned in the Bible, can you please give me a list of some of the rights of men that are?


All the best,


David

Very intriguing closing question David. I would be interested to read an answer to it.

John

Hi John,

I'll give you your own personal answer...:D

Let me begin in Genesis where men are given the right by Yahweh to rule over women, from that initial decree a cascade of rules and laws have issued forth that continue into the New Testament with Paul's declaration that women are to be in subjection to men, which includes keeping silent in church and not teaching a man! Everywhere one looks in Scripture men are given the right to make rules that govern themselves and women. Looks pretty skewed to me. :p

Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi John,

I'll give you your own personal answer...:D

Let me begin in Genesis where men are given the right by Yahweh to rule over women, from that initial decree a cascade of rules and laws have issued forth that continue into the New Testament with Paul's declaration that women are to be in subjection to men, which includes keeping silent in church and not teaching a man! Everywhere one looks in Scripture men are given the right to make rules that govern themselves and women. Looks pretty skewed to me. :p

Rose
Slam dunk!

[David M]

Hello Rose


Good morning David :yo:

That quote from Galatians has done nothing to help women, because men interpret it as meaning "spiritually" there is no male or female in Christ. It's all fine and dandy to say we all have equal opportunity in the kingdom of God, but that's hasn't helped women out here on earth. The only way women have earned equal rights is by getting them the hard way, which means teaming up together and demanding equality. Men have never willingly given any rights to women unless they were forced to.

You are misinterpreting what is being said. We can be one in Christ now, we are his brethren (inclusive of sisters) if we have associated ourselves with him. We are told that God is no respecter of persons; this is true and has been from the beginning and that is why I have said we are responsible as individual for the choices we make and for working out our own salvation. God has shown us the way and it is up to us to follow. It does not matter what nationality we are or what sex we are, we have the same opportunity of believing in what God has promised.


Women make up half the population, and give birth to the other half, which makes it absolutely ludicrous for men to think that women should be in subjection to them!
By your tone of language, you keep tarring every male with the same brush and you cannot do that. Not all men think that women should be in subjection to them. Error has crept in whereby a lot of men are using the scripture and wresting the scripture to their own destruction. Men of God do not abuse women and do not expect women to be in subjection to them. Unmarried men and unmarried women have their equal rights in the sight of God and married men and women are subject to one another; the husband or the wife is not greater than the other; they are complimentary and have equal rights. God has declared this principle from the very beginning. Certain changes took place in the relation between God and man and God and woman when God spoke to Adam and then to Eve after their fall. Their union in marriage did not change. Jesus refers us back to this time and so we should understand this in the way that Jesus understood it. This is part of having the mind of Christ in us and to understand the scriptures as Jesus understood them.


Let me begin in Genesis where men are given the right by Yahweh to rule over women, from that initial decree a cascade of rules and laws have issued forth that continue into the New Testament with Paul's declaration that women are to be in subjection to men, which includes keeping silent in church and not teaching a man! Everywhere one looks in Scripture men are given the right to make rules that govern women.
You are making the same statment;"in subjection to men" so my answer to this is the same as above.


If you really want a list look at the thread I started called The Male Bias of the Bible (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2303-The-Male-Bias-of-the-Bible)I go through many of the biblical passages that deal with womens lack of equality in Scripture.

All the best,
Rose

Thanks for pointing me to the thread; The Male Bias of the Bible. There is so much to read and little time to read everything on this forum, but I have taken time to read it through and I concur with Debz. Pointing me to that thread has not strengthened your argument against my point of view. Deb has presented the case very well and far better than I ever could.

Your say;"Everywhere one looks in Scripture men are given the right to make rules that govern women". The use of the word "everywhere" is another exaggerated claim. There might be instances where you are right, but then you are ignoring the scriptures which show that your way of thinking is wrong. Where there is apparent discord in scripture, I search for harmony. I do not look to create false ideas that are not there. Hence the threads I have created to present arguements against the false teaching that has arisen.

You are not totally wrong Rose, but you are not totally correct. Just as their are apparent paradoxes in scripture, so we have to right the balance scripture and draw out the underlying harmony that is there. Unfortunately, many want to seize the apparent paradoxes to prove the Bible is all a myth and waste of time and a book that makes no sense and cannot be trusted. That mentality will not get them into the kingdom of which they do not believe anyway. Fortunately, for a few (relatively speaking), the truth and harmony of the scriptures is found and the way is opened up through coming to know Jesus the Christ that God has given us the way whereby we can be saved from death and be given a place in His kingdom to come. So, lets continue to try and reason together to get to the truth

Deb is more likely to be correct after researching the words used and why certain words are not used. This is one of the problems I have with my own native English, I often use incorrect words which confuses people. Occassionally I write to people whose native language is not English and I have to stop my self from using certain words and phrases, because I know they will not understand or will take the wrong meaning. The Bible as we have it today, must keep us on our guard. We should look for harmony rather than our own private interpretation which can be in discord. Even if we can refer to the earliest of manuscripts, we still have to understand the language of the day in which they were written in. How else should God have His word written so as to take into account changing language over time? While the KJV Bible remains a very good (not perfect) translation, we can see how the English language has changed over seveal centuries. Therefore, we have to first understand the language of the King James period and then we have to understand the language of scripture. These obstacles do not have to stop us getting to the truth.

I have been slammed elsewwhere for saying that I accept there are errors in the Bible (as we have it today), I allow for errors of bias or genuine mistakes in translation. By comparing different translations and comparing scripture against scripture we can get to the Truth of God's word. That is why I say; if I find nine references which agree and convey the same meaning and I have one verse that seems to say something different, I have to study that one verse until I find its true meaning that brings it into harmony. In the process I might find errors of translation or bias by the translators. In order to explain difficult passages I might be able to find another passage of scripture that provides the key to understanding.

There is so much false doctrine based on just a few verses that are easy to misinterpret. Deb has shown by her research into the Greek and Hebrew words used how a correct understanding can be derived. I know Richard has a great knowledge of Greek and Hebrew and yet he is not taking on board what Deb has been saying. I have to learn from those who know Greek and Hebrew languages and can do the language research. I know I am at a disadvantage not doing it myself. Even so, I have to compare what is said in the light of the sum of scripture. In the past I was confused over many passages of scripture, but have over time with reading comments of others that have done the research I have come to an understanding. Even if I have bad recall and cannot immediately bring to mind the appropriate scriptures (and this is what Jesus could do so well) I have been able to come to see the truth of God's word and that is my foundation. I might lose an argument because of poor articulation or not having the knowledge on immediate recall, but that does not mean I am wrong.

I can see some of the reasons you have for the strong making out there is a strong male bias in the Bible, I have tried to explain that it is not as biassed as you make out, and Deb in her reasoning has explained verses to you that you are not taking on board. We have to be very careful we do not wrest scripture as many do "to their own destruction" and the value of this forum is that it does nold our feet to the flame and we are made to re-examine our beliefs.

The principles of God do not change. Deb has explained the complete oneness that existed when Adam and Eve were created. The perfect harmony that existed was broken when Adam and Eve failed the test. The perfect state into which Adam and Eve were created was changed as a result of their punishment for disobedience. God is true to His word and He is just and He is faithful. God declared Adam and Eve would die if they ate of the fruit, and they did. Eve and her female descendants were cursed with painful child-birth and since the day that was spoken of, it has not changed. God introduces changes according to what man does in order to bring about His purpose, this is not to say that God's principles change. This is why I think we have to go back to see some of the basics facts recorded in Genesis. Right from the time God gave Abraham the promises, we see how God has been fulfilling His promise. Abraham believed he will inherit the land he was told to walk through the length and breadth of it. To this day, Abraham has not received his inheritance, but one day he will. God does not break His promises. We should never lose sight of the promises God has made. I build my faith on His promises and that is why I have to make scripture make sense and see the harmony that is there throughout.

We have to make sense of why God allowed some things to happen and why God ordered certain things to be done. Everything has to be seen in proper context and how God is working out His purpose. Ultimately, God shall fill the whole earth with His Glory and He is saving a people out of all nations and ages to be in the kingom which will reveal His Glory.

I think it might be better to tackle one or two verses at a time. Let's see if we can agree on a true interpretation of a single verse or passage before we get bogged down by dealing with too many problems at the same time. It will be helpful if we examine all possible interpretations of a single verse or passage before we reach a conclusion and move on.

All the best,

David

[Rose]

Hello Rose



You are misinterpreting what is being said. We can be one in Christ now, we are his brethren (inclusive of sisters) if we have associated ourselves with him. We are told that God is no respecter of persons; this is true and has been from the beginning and that is why I have said we are responsible as individual for the choices we make and for working out our own salvation. God has shown us the way and it is up to us to follow. It does not matter what nationality we are or what sex we are, we have the same opportunity of believing in what God has promised.
Hi David,

On one hand the Bible says God is no respecter of persons, but on the other hand men are respected to a much greater degree than women because they are given the power to rule over them. This is precisely why men have denied women basic human rights and used the Bible to support their claims.


By your tone of language, you keep tarring every male with the same brush and you cannot do that. Not all men think that women should be in subjection to them. Error has crept in whereby a lot of men are using the scripture and wresting the scripture to their own destruction. Men of God do not abuse women and do not expect women to be in subjection to them. Unmarried men and unmarried women have their equal rights in the sight of God and married men and women are subject to one another; the husband or the wife is not greater than the other; they are complimentary and have equal rights. God has declared this principle from the very beginning. Certain changes took place in the relation between God and man and God and woman when God spoke to Adam and then to Eve after their fall. Their union in marriage did not change. Jesus refers us back to this time and so we should understand this in the way that Jesus understood it. This is part of having the mind of Christ in us and to understand the scriptures as Jesus understood them.

No, I do not keep tarring all men with the same brush! Obviously Richard is totally for equality of women, and it seems like you are too, but that's beside the point cause it's not what I am speaking of. I am talking about the Bible and the way it promotes treating women as less then men when it comes to human rights. Women are equally human with men and every right that is afforded a man should be equally afforded a woman, which does not happen in the Bible.



Your say;"Everywhere one looks in Scripture men are given the right to make rules that govern women". The use of the word "everywhere" is another exaggerated claim. There might be instances where you are right, but then you are ignoring the scriptures which show that your way of thinking is wrong. Where there is apparent discord in scripture, I search for harmony. I do not look to create false ideas that are not there. Hence the threads I have created to present arguements against the false teaching that has arisen.

All the rules and laws that govern women's rights in the Bible are given by men...there is nothing to exaggerate, it's just a fact! I know men like yourself say that God gave those rules to men, so they were only implementing them. But, then that proves my very point of the Bible being biased toward the male.




I have been slammed elsewwhere for saying that I accept there are errors in the Bible (as we have it today), I allow for errors of bias or genuine mistakes in translation. By comparing different translations and comparing scripture against scripture we can get to the Truth of God's word. That is why I say; if I find nine references which agree and convey the same meaning and I have one verse that seems to say something different, I have to study that one verse until I find its true meaning that brings it into harmony. In the process I might find errors of translation or bias by the translators. In order to explain difficult passages I might be able to find another passage of scripture that provides the key to understanding.

There is so much false doctrine based on just a few verses that are easy to misinterpret. Deb has shown by her research into the Greek and Hebrew words used how a correct understanding can be derived. I know Richard has a great knowledge of Greek and Hebrew and yet he is not taking on board what Deb has been saying. I have to learn from those who know Greek and Hebrew languages and can do the language research. I know I am at a disadvantage not doing it myself. Even so, I have to compare what is said in the light of the sum of scripture. In the past I was confused over many passages of scripture, but have over time with reading comments of others that have done the research I have come to an understanding. Even if I have bad recall and cannot immediately bring to mind the appropriate scriptures (and this is what Jesus could do so well) I have been able to come to see the truth of God's word and that is my foundation. I might lose an argument because of poor articulation or not having the knowledge on immediate recall, but that does not mean I am wrong.

I can see some of the reasons you have for the strong making out there is a strong male bias in the Bible, I have tried to explain that it is not as biassed as you make out, and Deb in her reasoning has explained verses to you that you are not taking on board. We have to be very careful we do not wrest scripture as many do "to their own destruction" and the value of this forum is that it does nold our feet to the flame and we are made to re-examine our beliefs.

If the God of the Bible were truly the creator of the universe, do you not think he should be able to supply humans with a book that is free from errors? I should hope so.When humans write instruction manuals for their products, or formulas for chemical compounds they are able to accurately describe what is needed for others to be able to understand them, this is far from the case with the Bible. Parts of the Bible are so ambiguous no one can agree on what it says, other parts are plainly wrong, and still others have blatant contradictions.


The principles of God do not change. Deb has explained the complete oneness that existed when Adam and Eve were created. The perfect harmony that existed was broken when Adam and Eve failed the test. The perfect state into which Adam and Eve were created was changed as a result of their punishment for disobedience. God is true to His word and He is just and He is faithful. God declared Adam and Eve would die if they ate of the fruit, and they did. Eve and her female descendants were cursed with painful child-birth and since the day that was spoken of, it has not changed. God introduces changes according to what man does in order to bring about His purpose, this is not to say that God's principles change. This is why I think we have to go back to see some of the basics facts recorded in Genesis. Right from the time God gave Abraham the promises, we see how God has been fulfilling His promise. Abraham believed he will inherit the land he was told to walk through the length and breadth of it. To this day, Abraham has not received his inheritance, but one day he will. God does not break His promises. We should never lose sight of the promises God has made. I build my faith on His promises and that is why I have to make scripture make sense and see the harmony that is there throughout.

We have to make sense of why God allowed some things to happen and why God ordered certain things to be done. Everything has to be seen in proper context and how God is working out His purpose. Ultimately, God shall fill the whole earth with His Glory and He is saving a people out of all nations and ages to be in the kingom which will reveal His Glory.


All the best,

David

One would hope that the principles of God do not change, but that is not what the Bible says. On one hand a man like Moses is called righteous and holy, yet he murdered thousands of people for the mere crime of idol worship...one the other hand Jesus tells us to love our enemies and turn the other cheek. So, which is it? Kill the evil idol worshipers or love them!

Rose

[David M]

Hi Rose
Thanks for your response. I will give a replyto what you have written, though I think I must change tack after this as we are off topic again. "Why is Sexual Violence not condemned in the Bible?" is the topic. I am as guilty as most for getting lead down side trails.


Hi David,
On one hand the Bible says God is no respecter of persons, but on the other hand men are respected to a much greater degree than women because they are given the power to rule over them. This is precisely why men have denied women basic human rights and used the Bible to support their claims.
I have some sympathy with your view from the perspective you are looking at this. What Deb has shown elsewhere in this forum and I concur, the principle of God is that man does not rule over his wife. Man is not greater than the woman. The World, which is of mankind's making, and which is at enmity with God, the Bible tells us about. The Bible is full of accounts where God is dealing with the world that has come about as a result of mankind and God is having to fullfil His purpose and deal with it. God is working in the kingdoms of men and having to deal with what is going on; He is revealing to us that He is in control despite many wondering what the world is coming too. When looked at from the World's perspective, you are right. The Bible is not biassed for reporting the World as it is.


No, I do not keep tarring all men with the same brush! Obviously Richard is totally for equality of women, and it seems like you are too, but that's beside the point cause it's not what I am speaking of. I am talking about the Bible and the way it promotes treating women as less then men when it comes to human rights. Women are equally human with men and every right that is afforded a man should be equally afforded a woman, which does not happen in the Bible.
Once again, I do not think God treats women less than men. There is a greater role for men to play as men have been given the greater responsibility. When it comes to nations and national beliefs of which idolatry was rampant in the period of history we are considering, I can understand how offensive it is to God who is the Creator. God has given His instruction to mankind not to worship idols. God has given men and women free choice and when they refuse to accept God and will not turn to Him and they practice their evil ways, they are considered reprobates, and they are a lost cause. You are not correct to take the moral high ground when God acts against these reprobates. You should be out there getting people to repent, and change from their evil ways. You forget a similar judgement is coming on the World and when it does, what will you say then?



All the rules and laws that govern women's rights in the Bible are given by men...there is nothing to exaggerate, it's just a fact! I know men like yourself say that God gave those rules to men, so they were only implementing them. But, then that proves my very point of the Bible being biased toward the male.
The predominant role of men, is not inately bad. I have agreed that the Bible is predominately male orientated which is different from God being biassed towards men in the sense of being partial towards men. Just because the Bible is male orientated does not mean that it was written by men who were biassed towards men. It was mainly men (but not exclusively) through whom God operated and they wrote as they were inspired to write.



If the God of the Bible were truly the creator of the universe, do you not think he should be able to supply humans with a book that is free from errors? I should hope so.When humans write instruction manuals for their products, or formulas for chemical compounds they are able to accurately describe what is needed for others to be able to understand them, this is far from the case with the Bible. Parts of the Bible are so ambiguous no one can agree on what it says, other parts are plainly wrong, and still others have blatant contradictions.
Originally, God was very clear in what was written. God gave instructions to write things "plainly" so the people would understand and had no excuse. So in answer to your question, God has. Errors have been introduced into the Bible as we have it today. With study and research, these errors can be spotted. There is no excuse for men and women putting their own bias on the word of God which is very apparent in some translations of the Bible. Even when the Bible says something is white, you would say it is black. Just how simple do you want it to be. Even the simplest of things to understand is being perverted, so blame man and yourself before you blame God.

Accuse perverters before you accuse God. There is enough truth in the Bible for us to recognize Even simple truths that are plain as day in the Bible are perverted by men and women, so again you should not accuse God, go and accuse your peers. The fact that we have a Bible at all is evidence of of a miracle. Despite all attempts to destroy the Bible and remove it from the face of the planet, God's word has remained. Not too dissimilar to the survival of the Jews (Gods chosen nation through Abraham). You had better accuse the translaters and those who have perverted the word of God before you accuse God. If you do not understand parts of the Bible and you claim they are wrong, then that is your problem, not the Bible's problem. Others besides me are not having the difficulties you are having, we are discerning the scriptures to see the harmony and consistency of God's word. I do not claim to know it all and have an answer for everything in the Bible, but what I do not know I can keep working at.


One would hope that the principles of God do not change, but that is not what the Bible says. On one hand a man like Moses is called righteous and holy, yet he murdered thousands of people for the mere crime of idol worship...one the other hand Jesus tells us to love our enemies and turn the other cheek. So, which is it? Kill the evil idol worshipers or love them!
You continue to accuse Moses even after I have pointed out that Moses and Israel when operating under instruction should not be held quilty. Accuse God, not Moses. I know Moses was not perfect, and Moses did kill and Egyptian when saving a fellow Israelite. Do not accuse Moses of being a mass murderer for obeying instruction. You are in no position to know what Moses' motives were. God knows all our motives. I should challenge people's motives before I would accuse God. Argue your case against God and not Moses. It is frustrating when you keep saying; "that is what the Bible says" when I know that others have shown you that your interpretation is wrong, but you keep on plugging the same point using the same verses. You are free to keep saying what you do, and I and others will have to keep saying you are wrong. I fear we shall keep running into the same problem as stated in a recent post from Ricard;

Originally Posted by RAM
No amount of proof would convince a person who has chosen not to believe something.
The law was very specific and is still relevant in this respect for it has not changed; "Thou shalt not kill". All the 10 commandments, Jesus summed up in just two commandments. He did not negate the 10 commandments.

It is God's prerogative to kill where He considers it justified.
Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: This is from the Song of Moses and paints a sorry picture of the sorry state of affairs that are of man's making; not God's. I suggest the chapter is read and understood.

You want to take the moral highground and think your morals are better than God when all you are doing is showing flawed humanist reasoning.

Eventually, God will show us how the World should be governed "by that man whom he hath ordained". God has shown us in the Bible the consequences of man's rule and the violence of man towards man. Why object to God killing reprobates when men are killing each other all day long and the innocent are getting slaughtered at the hands of men? God will eventually put a stop to this when Jesus returns to take over the World and shall rule the World in righteousness. The Bible is telling you and me what is was like in times past and how it is now and what it will be like in the time to come. Don't blame God for what is of man's making and which God has the right to correct in the way He chooses.

All the best to you Rose

David