The Seven Seals [Archive] - Bibles, Wheels, and Brains Forum

Richard Amiel McGough

11-14-2007, 05:02 PM

Victor

11-14-2007, 05:45 PM

Hi Richard!

Time has been very short and I haven't had much of a chance to post anything. I'm currently writing a post for the Babylon thread. I was thinking of starting a thread on the seven seals someday :D, but you already did it so we'll have a good time.

Your summary is the way I see the seals. I see it as a parallel account of the Olivet Discourse, it is too obvious.

The first horseman, for example, simply doesn't have a "clincher" to connect it to Christ. There's usually a detailed description of Him when He appears in Revelation. That's missing in Rev 6:2. And it seems like Revelation wants us to notice that little irony. The self-righteous false christs resembles the true Christ. And it really can deceive us, judging by the way Rev 6:2 has been interpreted throughout history!! That's what I think Revelation is showing in chapter 6. The false christs are in perfect parallel to the first event described in the Olivet Discourse.

There is a lot more I would like to add to this Seal, but that will have to wait. I'll just point out that the Sixth Spoke has a lot to do with the Sixth Seal (http://www.biblewheel.com/InnerWheels/Revelation/Rev06.asp). It is in the Sixth Canonical Division (NT History, governed by Luke/Man) that we find the parallel account of people hiding in caves (as in Joshua and Hosea on Spoke 6 of the Bible Wheel and the Sixth Seal in Revelation 6):

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Victor

TheForgiven

11-14-2007, 05:47 PM

:congrats: Very good Richard! That was fantastic. On a previous forum, I posted the very same thing and noted that the accounts of Matthew 24 match perfectly with the seven seals in Revelation.

What is a seal? A seal was a tab made from hot candle wax used to seal up a letter or document until it was delivered to the rightful king. When the intended reader received the document or letter which was sealed with the wax, the king would break the seal and reveal what was written, either to himself or to his authorized audience.

Jesus was the only one found worthy to break the seals. As each seal is broken, prophecy began to come true. So the question is, what documents (figuratively speaking) was being revealed as each seal was broken? It would take far too many posts to reveal all the Old Testament prophets, so let me just say with confidence, and hopefully everyone's attention, that the seals were the fulfillment of the Prophets, just as Christ said, "There will be wrath against this people until all that is written is fulfilled...." Hence, the breaking forth of the seals meant that it was now time to deliver the message; a message of both hope and wrath, deliverance and destruction, salvation and damnation through fire and brimstone.

And Richard keyed on the most extraordinary fact about the Matthew 24 account! The Matthew 24 account lines up perfectly with the seals.

Regarding the rider on the white horse, I used to believe this to be a representation of a king from a given nation. But last year I came to the conclusion that the rider on the white horse was a false Messiah. Notice also that this rider has a bow, but he has no arrows. This to me may represent a false king or Messiah who in truth, has no power.

Great Job Richard! That was fantastic!

Joe

Richard Amiel McGough

11-14-2007, 06:57 PM

Hi Richard!

Time has been very short and I haven't had much of a chance to post anything. I'm currently writing a post for the Babylon thread. I was thinking of starting a thread on the seven seals someday :D, but you already did it so we'll have a good time.
Hey Victor!

Great to see you found a few minutes to stop by. I look forward to your Babyon post. And yes, I think this is the beginning of a very interesting and useful thread.

Your summary is the way I see the seals. I see it as a parallel account of the Olivet Discourse, it is too obvious.
Yep. It really locks down the primary theme of Revelation, which is extremely important for a proper interepretation of that book.

The first horseman, for example, simply doesn't have a "clincher" to connect it to Christ. There's usually a detailed description of Him when He appears in Revelation. That's missing in Rev 6:2. And it seems like Revelation wants us to notice that little irony. The self-righteous false christs resembles the true Christ. And it really can deceive us, judging by the way Rev 6:2 has been interpreted throughout history!! That's what I think Revelation is showing in chapter 6. The false christs are in perfect parallel to the first event described in the Olivet Discourse.
I agree - there is no "clincher." But it was pretty hard for me to let go of the original interpretation for the reasons I listed. But now that I see how it fits with the Olivet Discourse (which is aptly called by some the "Synoptic Apocalypse"), it seems the synergy prety much demands that interpretation. It is interesting that the Four Horsemen don't seem to play much of a role outside of their connection with the Olivet Discourse.

There is a lot more I would like to add to this Seal, but that will have to wait. I'll just point out that the Sixth Spoke has a lot to do with the Sixth Seal (http://www.biblewheel.com/InnerWheels/Revelation/Rev06.asp). It is in the Sixth Canonical Division (NT History, governed by Luke/Man) that we find the parallel account of people hiding in caves (as in Joshua and Hosea on Spoke 6 of the Bible Wheel and the Sixth Seal in Revelation 6):

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Victor

Excellent insights. The same thing is found in Hosea (Spoke 6, Cycle 2):
Hosea 10:8 The high places also of Aven, the sin of Israel, shall be destroyed: the thorn and the thistle shall come up on their altars; and they shall say to the mountains, Cover us; and to the hills, Fall on us. Searching for the set (mountains, fall on us) selects only the three verses cited in this post.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough

11-14-2007, 07:03 PM

:congrats: Very good Richard! That was fantastic. On a previous forum, I posted the very same thing and noted that the accounts of Matthew 24 match perfectly with the seven seals in Revelation.
Well we all know that great minds think alike! But the surprising thing is that so do we! :lol:

What is a seal? A seal was a tab made from hot candle wax used to seal up a letter or document until it was delivered to the rightful king. When the intended reader received the document or letter which was sealed with the wax, the king would break the seal and reveal what was written, either to himself or to his authorized audience.

Jesus was the only one found worthy to break the seals. As each seal is broken, prophecy began to come true. So the question is, what documents (figuratively speaking) was being revealed as each seal was broken? It would take far too many posts to reveal all the Old Testament prophets, so let me just say with confidence, and hopefully everyone's attention, that the seals were the fulfillment of the Prophets, just as Christ said, "There will be wrath against this people until all that is written is fulfilled...." Hence, the breaking forth of the seals meant that it was now time to deliver the message; a message of both hope and wrath, deliverance and destruction, salvation and damnation through fire and brimstone.
It would be very interesting if you would fill out what you meant by the "fulfillment of the Prophets" as you find time.

And Richard keyed on the most extraordinary fact about the Matthew 24 account! The Matthew 24 account lines up perfectly with the seals.
Actually, all three synoptic accounts of the Olivet Discourse line up pretty much the same when it comes to the seals. The variations between them are slight, so they confirm each other strongly. And the best of all, the variations are explanatory, so they "fill out" the picture from three points of view. I'm working hard to post my understanding of how all three fit together and with Revelation, Daniel, and Joel.

Regarding the rider on the white horse, I used to believe this to be a representation of a king from a given nation. But last year I came to the conclusion that the rider on the white horse was a false Messiah. Notice also that this rider has a bow, but he has no arrows. This to me may represent a false king or Messiah who in truth, has no power.

Great Job Richard! That was fantastic!

Joe
Thanks for the encouragement Joe! I think we are getting a good synergy here. Your contributions have been very helpful.

God bless!

Richard

dan

11-18-2007, 10:38 AM

Richard Amiel McGough

11-18-2007, 01:41 PM

The white horse rider being a false messiah does seem to fit with the oliviet discourse, however, why would the word of God allow the horse to be white?? Certainly, the word of God would not picture the horse as white nor would it allow an unrighteous rider on a white horse. An ani-christ would not ever been seen by God's word as white... would it??? However, the white horse could be the preaching of the gospel to all kingdoms, possibly.

Anyway, the horse being called white by the God's prophetic word is really the part that keeps me from accepting that. If you could
explain that away, maybe I could accept that interpretation.

Hey Dan!

That is exactly the point of view I held for quite a while. The argument seemed pretty strong. The symbolic color "white" represents purity and righteousness. There is nothing in the description of the seal that suggests a counterfeit. And we see the same symbol later in the same book where it clearly represents Christ (Rev 19.11), and in both cases, the rider has one or more crowns. It seems to be a pretty tight identification.

But there are at least two challenges to that view. The most significant is that the four horseman form a group or a class of symbols in which Christ does not seem to fit. And as Victor noted, there is nothing in Revelation that "clinches" the symbol as Christ.

And that made me wonder, what does it matter? The four seals do not "progress" within the Story of Revelation. They are presented at the beginning and that's it. How then does the interpretation of the First Seal impact the rest of the Story?

The answer is that the Four Horsemen form a strong link to the Olivet Discourse. I believe God put them there as a primary link in His integrated prophetic complex that consists of the Olivet Discourse, Daniel, Joel, and Revelation.

In light of these integrated prophecies, I find it difficult to deny the correlation between the false Christ's with the first horseman. And not only does it complete the correlation between the Seals and the Olivet Discourse, but it also explains the purpose (in part at least) of the Seven Seals. Thus we get a "bonus answer" that was not expected, and that always gives me a sense of "pieces clicking together" and "bells going off" because I see a greater unity in the whole. And that's the ultimate prize - to precieve the Unity of the entire Revelation of God, from Genesis to Revelation. And what do we see then? The Revelation of Jesus Christ!

Now as for the "implicit deception" of using the color white for false Christs: This reminds me of a couple verses. The first comes from the Olivet Discourse itself, in which Christ gives an explanation of the very question at hand:
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

And how could such deception be possible if not that the false Christs looked like Christ? This is no marvel, for Paul also warned us:
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. Just as Satan can appear as an "angel of light" so the false christs can be represented in white in Revelation. Rather than being a problem, I see this as an object lesson in which the proper interpretation is being demonstrated by how the symbol is being used in the very text of Revelation itself! Quite a linguistic artist our God is! A powerful teacher be He! This seems to be what Victor was saying in his post in this thread:

The first horseman, for example, simply doesn't have a "clincher" to connect it to Christ. There's usually a detailed description of Him when He appears in Revelation. That's missing in Rev 6:2. And it seems like Revelation wants us to notice that little irony. The self-righteous false christs resembles the true Christ. And it really can deceive us, judging by the way Rev 6:2 has been interpreted throughout history!! That's what I think Revelation is showing in chapter 6. The false christs are in perfect parallel to the first event described in the Olivet Discourse.
In conclusion: I see no additional understanding gained by insisting that the first horseman represents Christ. It adds nothing to our overall understanding of Revelation, and it conflicts with the powerful and convincing connection with the Olivet Discourse.

The second point about the seals is that the one document from the
old testament that had writing on both sides is the 10 commandments.
The ten commandments were sealed at Christs death. The unsealing would
be to those who do not accept Jesus as the completion of Law. This may
go back to the curses and blessings in Deuteronomy. I would be interested
in your thoughts on this as well.
I don't no what you mean by saying that the "ten commandments were sealed at Christs death." Do you mean that to us who trust Christ to be "the end of the Law" we are dead to the Law symbolized by the Ten Commandments, and so they are sealed like a corpse in a tomb? But if we have not Christ, then the Law is still "alive" to us, meaning we would be subject to it?

Obviously, I'm just guessing here. I'll need a little more explanation before knowing how to comment.

Richard

TheForgiven

11-19-2007, 08:12 AM

Actually, all three synoptic accounts of the Olivet Discourse line up pretty much the same when it comes to the seals. The variations between them are slight, so they confirm each other strongly. And the best of all, the variations are explanatory, so they "fill out" the picture from three points of view. I'm working hard to post my understanding of how all three fit together and with Revelation, Daniel, and Joel.

:congrats: BINGO! The Gospels account for the same discussion, though for some odd reason, Futurist act as though Matthew was providing a very different conclusion, as if he asked about Christ's return. Yet as I stated before, they had no idea He was even leaving, so why they ask when He was returning. I think they were thinking in terms of Daniel's seventy sevens, which speaks of "the end". But as a friend of mine always asks Futurist's, "The End of What?" There's not scripture which speaks of the world even coming to an end.

So yes, the Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) all speak of the same event, and that was the destruction of the temple.

Joe

Richard Amiel McGough

11-19-2007, 11:38 AM

:congrats: BINGO! The Gospels account for the same discussion, though for some odd reason, Futurist act as though Matthew was providing a very different conclusion, as if he asked about Christ's return. Yet as I stated before, they had no idea He was even leaving, so why they ask when He was returning. I think they were thinking in terms of Daniel's seventy sevens, which speaks of "the end". But as a friend of mine always asks Futurist's, "The End of What?" There's not scripture which speaks of the world even coming to an end.

So yes, the Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) all speak of the same event, and that was the destruction of the temple.

Joe
Absolutely correct. There is no warrant whatsoever to assert that Matthew 24 is talking about something other than the destruction of Jerusalem as described in the parallel passages of Mark 13 and Luke 21.

Concerning the "end" in Matthew 24:3 .... the word used there is συντελειας (sunteleias) from the root sun (to bring together) + telios (end). Exactly the same word (letter for letter) is found four times in the LXX of Daniel 9:25-27!
Daniel 9:24-27 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

And it appears again three times in Daniel 12:
Daniel 12:4-13 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. 5 ¶ Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

All the pieces fit together perfectly. Christ himself quoted this passage in answer to the disciples' question "when will the end (sunteleia) be?" It is really important to understand this. Jesus quoted a passage from Daniel that contains the exact word the disciples used in their question!

When this is combined with Christ's declaration that it ALL would be fulfilled during the generation living in the first century, and Gabriel's declartion that it all would be fulfilled in the first century (490 years after 445 BC), and the historical fact that the temple was destroyed in the first century, and the "time, times, and a half" common to both Daniel and Revelation, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., - I would say that preterism is the one and only interpretation that does justice to God's great and awesome integrated prophetic complex.

Richard

Abigail

11-19-2007, 01:42 PM

Richard Amiel McGough

11-19-2007, 02:12 PM

Hi RAM

Reading Morris today, he makes a point I feel is worth mentioning. He sees the four horsemen as judgements sent forth directly from the Lamb and from what I understand by reading seems to view the first horse as first and foremost dealing with those who were going to escape judgement - the 'overcomers'. Morris says the word 'conquer' used is the same as overcome. Surely he is onto something here for we do know that to those who overcome shall be given crowns and these will not have judgemment. Perhaps this is why these look similar to Christ himself. Furthermore Morris says 'the bow like the rainbow speaks of mercy in the midst of judgement'

IMO this still fits with the Olivet discourse as by forewarning his followers, Christ allowed them to escape judgement that was metered out to Jerusalem.

Hey Abigail,

Those are some good insights. Morris is correct of course about "overcomer" being the same as "conqueror." In Greek, the word is Ho Nikon, and it has a numerical value of 1000 which has always seemed quite signficant to me. This was part of those many reasons I thought the White Horse had to be Christ, because He is the One who Conquers, and He gave promises to "He who overscomes" = Ho Nikon = 1000 (http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/gr_1000.asp).

Now I want to make sure I understand your point. When you say the first horse was "dealing with those who were going to escape judgement" it sounds like you are suggesting that it goes forth to help the overcomers (i.e. Chirstians) escape the onslaught that was soon to come (as expressed by the other three horsemen). Is that correct? If so, its very interesing and seems like it may have some promise. I'll need to think on it more, of course. And pass it by my wife Rose. ;)

As for the book, are you talking about Henry Morris' "Revelation Record"?

Another view of the white horse which still fits with the Olivet discourse Matt 24:2 is if the white horse is seen as Romans coming to destroy the temple which if I am correct was seen as the seat of the Jews' power and wealth. Apparently the Romans viewed Ivory as being associated with power and wealth, so maybe the white horse is meant to conjure up thoughts of ivory.

Personally I like the view Morris has lead me to.
Yes, the first horse could be the army as it comes to conquer, but that doesn't seem to fit well with the Olivet Discourse because the events listed in Matt 24:5-9 preceed the arrival of the Roman army.

Richard

Abigail

11-19-2007, 03:38 PM

Hey Abigail,

Those are some good insights. Morris is correct of course about "overcomer" being the same as "conqueror." In Greek, the word is Ho Nikon, and it has a numerical value of 1000 which has always seemed quite signficant to me. This was part of those many reasons I thought the White Horse had to be Christ, because He is the One who Conquers, and He gave promises to "He who overscomes" = Ho Nikon = 1000 (http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/gr_1000.asp).

Now I want to make sure I understand your point. When you say the first horse was "dealing with those who were going to escape judgement" it sounds like you are suggesting that it goes forth to help the overcomers (i.e. Chirstians) escape the onslaught that was soon to come (as expressed by the other three horsemen). Is that correct? If so, its very interesing and seems like it may have some promise. I'll need to think on it more, of course. And pass it by my wife Rose. ;) :lol: Yes, that's about it. James 2:13 'For judgement will be merciless to the one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgement ' These have the bow (which according to Morris is associated with the rainbow which speaks of mercy in the midst of judgement)

As for the book, are you talking about Henry Morris' "Revelation Record"? Yes, that's it. As I said I don't agree with his eschatology, but he always has such wonderful detail in his works. He must have spent hours digging about in the Bible. It's very exciting. Who needs PS3 or XBox or Wii ...I wish my kids would realise this :pray:

Yes, the first horse could be the army as it comes to conquer, but that doesn't seem to fit well with the Olivet Discourse because the events listed in Matt 24:5-9 preceed the arrival of the Roman army.

Richard
Yes, that does seem a weakness.

Richard Amiel McGough

11-19-2007, 04:16 PM

:lol: Yes, that's about it. James 2:13 'For judgement will be merciless to the one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgement ' These have the bow (which according to Morris is associated with the rainbow which speaks of mercy in the midst of judgement)
That's a very good insight too. It was, in fact, yet another one of the reasons I thougth the First Horseman was Christ. Rose and I did a word study on toxon (bow) and found that it was the word used in Gen 9:13 when God set his bow in the clouds. And now the connection suddenly popped into my my (as I am writing this) that God set His bow in the clouds as a SIGN of His covenant that He would not again judge with a flood! This quite naturally fits with the Bow as a symbol of God's protection of His Covenant people from the judgment that was just about to come down like a "flood" (Dan 9:26) upon Jerusalem.

Yes, that's it. As I said I don't agree with his eschatology, but he always has such wonderful detail in his works. He must have spent hours digging about in the Bible. It's very exciting. Who needs PS3 or XBox or Wii ...I wish my kids would realise this :pray:
Perhaps our young folks will get more enthused when folks start providing more books and sermons that build upon the amazing integrity and endless beauty of the Bible instead of insulting their intelligence with absurd comic book interpretations and false date settings and endless cries of "its the end of the world!"

Thanks for this new idea about the First Horse. I am convinced that it must fit with the sequence of the Olivet Discourse, but it may have been premature to directly assign it to the false Christs. I still gotta think about that more.

Richard

Abigail

11-24-2007, 03:23 PM

I am convinced that it must fit with the sequence of the Olivet Discourse, Yes, me too. It fits another overarching pattern too which in a way supports the first horse being 'good':

Rev 6:2 'And I looked and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow and a crown was given to him; and he went out conquering and to conquer.'
Genesis 1:28 'And God blessed them; and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth'.'
So here the first horse can be seen in the pre-fall Adam

Rev 6:4 'And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men should slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.'
Genesis 3:14 'And I will put enmity between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed ....' (Arguably this was being addressed to the serpent but it did lead to a loss of peace for them)
To me the false Christ's in the Olivet discourse are partly responsible for loss of peace. There is peace when the world is not at war and peace when we have the peace that passes understanding, these false Christs fiddled with both of these.

Rev 6:5-6 The black horse whose rider holds the scales in his hand
Genesis 3:17-18 '...cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you shall eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread.

Rev 6:7-8 Fourth rider named Death
Genesis 1:19 'For you are dust and to dust you shall return'

Rev 6:9-11 the fith seal with the martyrs crying out
Genesis 4:10 'And He said 'What have you done ? The voice of your brothers blood is crying to Me from the ground'

Rev 6:12-17 Sixth seal gives a description of what I would have expected to have happened when God destroyed the world in Noah's time.

So to me this has a lot of parallels with the Olivet discourse because in Noah's time the world was destroyed and the world for the Jews was also going to be destroyed.

Richard Amiel McGough

11-24-2007, 03:32 PM

Yes, me too. It fits another overarching pattern too which in a way supports the first horse being 'good':

Rev 6:2 'And I looked and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow and a crown was given to him; and he went out conquering and to conquer.'
Genesis 1:28 'And God blessed them; and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth'.'
So here the first horse can be seen in the pre-fall Adam

Rev 6:4 'And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men should slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.'
Genesis 3:14 'And I will put enmity between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed ....' (Arguably this was being addressed to the serpent but it did lead to a loss of peace for them)
To me the false Christ's in the Olivet discourse are partly responsible for loss of peace. There is peace when the world is not at war and peace when we have the peace that passes understanding, these false Christs fiddled with both of these.

Rev 6:5-6 The black horse whose rider holds the scales in his hand
Genesis 3:17-18 '...cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you shall eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread.

Rev 6:7-8 Fourth rider named Death
Genesis 1:19 'For you are dust and to dust you shall return'

Rev 6:9-11 the fith seal with the martyrs crying out
Genesis 4:10 'And He said 'What have you done ? The voice of your brothers blood is crying to Me from the ground'

Rev 6:12-17 Sixth seal gives a description of what I would have expected to have happened when God destroyed the world in Noah's time.

So to me this has a lot of parallels with the Olivet discourse because in Noah's time the world was destroyed and the world for the Jews was also going to be destroyed.
Hey Abigail,

That is an altogether fascinating set of parallels! I'm going to simplify it to make it easier to see:

Seal 1 Conqueror - Adam (Type of Christ)
Seal 2 War - Fall/Enmity
Seal 3 Famine - Cursed Ground/Sweat of the Brow
Seal 4 Death - Thou art dust
Seal 5 Martyrs - Abel (First martyr)
Seal 6 Judgment Day - Flood of Noah

Wow - that's really interesting.

Thanks! :yo:

Richard

MHz

11-24-2007, 05:07 PM

We didn't have a thread on this topic, and I have some ideas that need to be tested.

Many folks have noticed that the first six seals correlate strongly with the sequence of events in the Olivet Discourse. Here is a brief overview:

First Seal ~ White Horse conquering
Matt 24:5 ~ False Christs

Second Seal ~ War
Matt 24:6-7 ~ Wars and rumors of wars

Third Seal ~ Famine
Matt 24:7 ~ And there shall be famines

Fourth Seal ~ Death
Matt 24:7 ~ and pestilences

Fifth Seal ~ Martyrs
Matt 24:9 ~ Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you

Sixth Seal ~ Judgment on Jerusalem begins
Matt 24:15 ~ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation ...

This correlation is way too tight to be anything like a "mere coincidence." I see it as yet another fact supporting the idea that Revelation talks about the same events as the Olivet Discourse, namely, the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Folks who have been talking with me for a while will note that I here demonstrate my willingness to change my mind with new evidence. I used to argue that the White Horse must represent Christ because later in the same book we see Christ on the White Horse, and the color White signifies righteousness, and there is nothing in the text that indicates any counterfeit. But others argued that it couldn't be Christ because the Four Horsemen form a group, and Christ is not to be classed with the other three. But I countered that the Four Horsemen represent a sequence of events, and there was no reason that an event that begins with Christ could not be followed by events triggered by angels (or Satan). But now, after seeing the correlation between the sequence of the Olivet Discourse and the Seven Seals, I feel a pretty strong tug towards interpreting the White Horse as a symbol of false christs. Note that I do not say "antichrist" because that figure does not appear in Revelation.

There is much more to say. I am very interested in what folks think about this.

Richard

Hi Richard,

I tend to go with the 1st seal as not having anything to do with the AC. I tend to see that vision being about God (the rider) and the Holy Spirit (the white horse). The end-times start at a time only God knows. Nobody knows when the events given in Scripture will start, we do know some dates for events that must happen before Christ returns. This brings up the issue of the bow and no arrows. If that information was given earlier in the Bible then there would be no need to repeat it in Revelation.
It would seem that God does have a bow,

Isa:49:1:
Listen,
O isles,
unto me;
and hearken,
ye people,
from far;
The LORD hath called me from the womb;
from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
Isa:49:2:
And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword;
in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me,
and made me a polished shaft;
in his quiver hath he hid me;

Those verses certainly indicate God having a bow, making Him the rider.

I tend to view the seals as being just an index to what is covered in later chapters. They only list 7 major markers for the time that comes after God has declared a start of the final days.

I thought of this by comparing the writing style of Revelation and Daniel. In Daniel 2 the image of the statue is given and that image is explained in greater detail in later chapters, one for Neb, one for the silver, one for the brass and yet another one for the iron and clay. In the description of the statue there weren't any breaks, the head did not 'play out in full' before the next level was introduced. By the end of Da:2 nothing had come to pass but there was an index for what later chapters cover.

If the seals are page markers the event that would play out later would be described in a later chapter. The trumps are the next subject in Revelation. There is one event between the end of the words about the seals and when the 1st trump sounds. The big question is would it qualify as being what the 1st seal talks about. God giving Christ the go-ahead.

Re:8:2:
And I saw the seven angels which stood before God;
and to them were given seven trumpets.
Re:8:3:
And another angel came and stood at the altar,
having a golden censer;
and there was given unto him much incense,
that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Re:8:4:
And the smoke of the incense,
which came with the prayers of the saints,
ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Re:8:5:
And the angel took the censer,
and filled it with fire of the altar,
and cast it into the earth:
and there were voices,
and thunderings,
and lightnings,
and an earthquake.

More than once Christ is revealed 'in Angelic form' in Revelation so I see no reason that this angel is not Christ himself.

Richard Amiel McGough

11-24-2007, 05:27 PM

Hi Richard,

Hello MHz,

Welcome to our forum!

:welcome:

I tend to go with the 1st seal as not having anything to do with the AC. I tend to see that vision being about God (the rider) and the Holy Spirit (the white horse).
That's how I felt for a long time .... then I noted the strong correlation with the Olivet Discourse .... so I thought it probably was the false christs (not AC, since the Bible talks about many ac's not one AC). But then Abigail suggested an interesting idea that it might have to do with God watching over and leading His people so they conquer and are not deceived and trapped in the coming judgment. And so it goes back and forth ... but as far as I can currently tell, the most likely interpretation is "false christs" because of the tight fit with the Olivet Discourse. The main point is that the OD links to the seals in Rev. That seems to be their primary purpose - to lead us to see that connection.

The end-times start at a time only God knows. Nobody knows when the events given in Scripture will start, we do know some dates for events that must happen before Christ returns.

So you believe the events of Revelation are still future? Myself, I think they were fulfilled in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and the scattering of the Jews, as Christ predicted:
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

This brings up the issue of the bow and no arrows. If that information was given earlier in the Bible then there would be no need to repeat it in Revelation.

Actually, there is a great need for repetition because that means that we have "two or three witnesses" to confirm every prophetic word. Indeed, that is why I think the seals are so significant. They form a link between Revelation and the Olivet Discourse which confirms that they are talking about the same events.

It would seem that God does have a bow,

Isa:49:1:
Listen,
O isles,
unto me;
and hearken,
ye people,
from far;
The LORD hath called me from the womb;
from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
Isa:49:2:
And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword;
in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me,
and made me a polished shaft;
in his quiver hath he hid me;

Those verses certainly indicate God having a bow, making Him the rider.

I don't think that is how we should interpret the Bible. The "bow" in Isaiah 49 is figurative. I wouldn't want to say "God has a bow" because of Isaiah 49. That doesn't seem right.

I tend to view the seals as being just an index to what is covered in later chapters. They only list 7 major markers for the time that comes after God has declared a start of the final days.

I thought of this by comparing the writing style of Revelation and Daniel. In Daniel 2 the image of the statue is given and that image is explained in greater detail in later chapters, one for Neb, one for the silver, one for the brass and yet another one for the iron and clay. In the description of the statue there weren't any breaks, the head did not 'play out in full' before the next level was introduced. By the end of Da:2 nothing had come to pass but there was an index for what later chapters cover.

If the seals are page markers the event that would play out later would be described in a later chapter. The trumps are the next subject in Revelation. There is one event between the end of the words about the seals and when the 1st trump sounds. The big question is would it qualify as being what the 1st seal talks about. God giving Christ the go-ahead.

I don't quite follow what you are getting at here.

Re:8:2:
And I saw the seven angels which stood before God;
and to them were given seven trumpets.
Re:8:3:
And another angel came and stood at the altar,
having a golden censer;
and there was given unto him much incense,
that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Re:8:4:
And the smoke of the incense,
which came with the prayers of the saints,
ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Re:8:5:
And the angel took the censer,
and filled it with fire of the altar,
and cast it into the earth:
and there were voices,
and thunderings,
and lightnings,
and an earthquake.

More than once Christ is revealed 'in Angelic form' in Revelation so I see no reason that this angel is not Christ himself.
I agree that Christ could be revealed "in Angelic form" (I guess), but I don't see what it has to do with Rev 8. Could you explain?

Richard

MHz

11-24-2007, 07:59 PM

Hello MHz,

Welcome to our forum!

:welcome:

Thanks.

That's how I felt for a long time .... then I noted the strong correlation with the Olivet Discourse .... so I thought it probably was the false christs (not AC, since the Bible talks about many ac's not one AC). But then Abigail suggested an interesting idea that it might have to do with God watching over and leading His people so they conquer and are not deceived and trapped in the coming judgment. And so it goes back and forth ... but as far as I can currently tell, the most likely interpretation is "false christs" because of the tight fit with the Olivet Discourse. The main point is that the OD links to the seals in Rev. That seems to be their primary purpose - to lead us to see that connection.

I would certainly agree that there is a connection, I just not totally convinced of one thing. The OD could cover events from when it is written, the seals can only cover events from when the time of the end starts. There is a part of time that is covered by the OD alone.

M't:24:6:
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:
see that ye be not troubled:
for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Does that come before of after this verse?
Re:1:1:
The Revelation of Jesus Christ,
which God gave unto him,
to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

M't:24:14:
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;
and then shall the end come.

Re:14:6:
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven,
having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation,
and kindred,
and tongue,
and people,

The next event after this is Christ claiming the Earth.

The abomination mentioned is still a yet to be thing. It is when Satan & Co do this,

Re:13:14:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast,
which had the wound by a sword,
and did live.

If that image has anything to do with this verse then they are in Jerusalem.
2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

The abomination mentioned in Daniel is not in ch:9, this is the abomination that is the sign to scatter (if you are in Judea)

Da:11:31:
And arms shall stand on his part,
and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength,
and shall take away the daily sacrifice,
and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Da:11:45:
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;
yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

So you believe the events of Revelation are still future? Myself, I think they were fulfilled in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and the scattering of the Jews, as Christ predicted:
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
For the most part, one exception is that ch:12 seems to cover 3 times Satan had had dealings with man, the 3 most important. Eve, the time Jesus was here, and the time he still has coming.

Actually, there is a great need for repetition because that means that we have "two or three witnesses" to confirm every prophetic word. Indeed, that is why I think the seals are so significant. They form a link between Revelation and the Olivet Discourse which confirms that they are talking about the same events.

Perhaps I should rephrase my comment. A lot of events are repeated in Scripture, the more important the event the more verses. Say there is one event covered in all of the 1st four Gospels, they all basically say the same thing but unless you read all of them there is a chance some point may be in one report but not in the other 3.

I am not saying there is no relationship. It is just from a slightly different POV than the seals. This verse would seem to cover more than 1 seal,

M't:24:7:
For nation shall rise against nation,
and kingdom against kingdom:
and there shall be famines,
and pestilences,
and earthquakes,
in divers places.
M't:24:8:
All these are the beginning of sorrows.

It sure seems to cover more than 1. The first few trumps would also be enough to at least start the same consequences.

The second rider is red and he has a sword. Romans 13 speaks of servants of God that are given a sword to combat evil with. More or less that would be the governments of the Nations. Red meaning that the use the sword for something other than originally intended, to the detriment of the people it is supposed to protect.

I don't think that is how we should interpret the Bible. The "bow" in Isaiah 49 is figurative. I wouldn't want to say "God has a bow" because of Isaiah 49. That doesn't seem right.
Actually it is only implies, implicated by listing two items that go with a bow.

I don't quite follow what you are getting at here.

Only that the statue in Daniel is used as an index for what later chapters cover in greater detail. The seals are the same as the statue, a vision that is about things that 'will be'.

I agree that Christ could be revealed "in Angelic form" (I guess), but I don't see what it has to do with Rev 8. Could you explain?

If the 1st seal is about (God, the Holy Spirit and/or Christ) then what that seal mentions unfolds in physical form when those coals are tossed to the earth. The first 4 trumps could certainly cause a loss of peace and famine.

The pale horse introduces two. Death and hell, The 5th & 6th trumps would seem to qualify as what those things could look like.

The 5th seal would be part of the 2nd woe in that it includes the death of the two witnesses.

The 6th seal is about the return of Christ, the event marked by the sound of the 7th trump, described in Re:16 as the pouring out of the 7 vials.

There should be several times that Christ is visibly doing something in Revelations.

TheForgiven

11-24-2007, 08:53 PM

I would certainly agree that there is a connection, I just not totally convinced of one thing. The OD could cover events from when it is written, the seals can only cover events from when the time of the end starts. There is a part of time that is covered by the OD alone.

M't:24:6:
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:
see that ye be not troubled:
for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Does that come before of after this verse?
Re:1:1:
The Revelation of Jesus Christ,
which God gave unto him,
to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

One of my thoughts has always been that Revelation wasn't entirely about future events. Many aspects of it may have been future, but let me give you an example. In Revelation, John sees a sign in heaven.

Revelation 12:
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 And she, being with child, cried, travailing in birth and in pain to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew a third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a manchild, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and to His throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

In Revelation chapter 12, we see a heavenly vision which "reveals" a spiritual truth. Not all of Revelation is about Prophesy, for much of it is a revealing of spiritual truths. Chapter 12 reveals that Christ was born, and Satan used the Beast (7 heads and 10 horns) to devour the "male child", which we know is Christ. I'm aware of the Historicist's who claim that the "male child" is the Church. But that doesn't work because that would presuppose a raptured Church while Satan attacks the rest of her offspring, as indicated in the following chapter. It would also show that the Church is male and not female, although I suppose it could be male considering the Church is often recognized as the "body of Christ". But in this case, we are not seeing a future event, even from the time frame Revelation was written. This was a spiritual truth about the Messiah, the devils attempt to prevent His birth, and the resurrection of Jesus into heaven, thereby making this a past event from the time it was written. Subsequently, this led to Satan becoming furious, which resulted in his attempt to destroy Israel. Israel is the woman clothed with the moon and a garland of 12 stars, and it was her that gave birth to Jesus....literally Mary, but spiritual it was Israel, for Israel brought forth the "Seed" through which the Messiah could be born.

Therefore, the OD matches perfectly with the seals, and IMO, the seals is a representation [or spiritual truth] of what was about to happen to Jerusalem.

A mistake I often see people make is they assume that Revelation in its entirety is sequential, from the first chapter to the last. However, IMO, it not sequential, but the same events from a different perspective. The seals appear to be the preparation of Jerusalem's end and it explains how everything got started, as well as why it got started.

Then you move to the trumpets. Trumpets are symbolic in this case, while in the Old Testament it was literal. But the symbolic trumpet has to do with attacks. So each trumpet is a new wave of attacks. The "Woe's" are a result of these attacks, and after the Woes, the final two trumpets are blown and the seventh trumpet completes the end....Jerusalem is destroyed.

7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

John then shifts to the Beasts point of view, describing the same events of the seals and trumpets, but this time we're catching a glimpse from the enemies perspective. He's told to eat the scroll and prophesy about peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages:

8 Then the voice which I heard from heaven spoke to me again and said, “Go, take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel who stands on the sea and on the earth.” 9 So I went to the angel and said to him, “Give me the little book.” And he said to me, “Take and eat it; and it will make your stomach bitter, but it will be as sweet as honey in your mouth.” 10 Then I took the little book out of the angel’s hand and ate it, and it was as sweet as honey in my mouth. But when I had eaten it, my stomach became bitter. 11 And he said to me, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, tongues, and kings.”

These things occur during the last two trumpets, 6 and 7. This represents the 42 months of Gentile trampling. Subsequently, by this time period the Church has already fled from Jerusalem, as indicated in the previous chapter where she is led into the wilderness during these last 42 months.

1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Jerusalem is trampled, the two Witnesses prophesy for 42 months.

Joe

Richard Amiel McGough

11-24-2007, 09:06 PM

I would certainly agree that there is a connection, I just not totally convinced of one thing. The OD could cover events from when it is written, the seals can only cover events from when the time of the end starts. There is a part of time that is covered by the OD alone.
It seems to me that the OD and Rev are talking about the same series of events, and both start at roughly the same time. That's why Rev begins with "the things that must shortly come to pass ... for the time is at hand." Of course, that demands a pre 70 AD date of composition which is highly contested by some folks.

M't:24:6:
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:
see that ye be not troubled:
for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Does that come before of after this verse?
Re:1:1:
The Revelation of Jesus Christ,
which God gave unto him,
to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Probably after since it corresponds to the Red Horse in Rev 6.

M't:24:14:
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;
and then shall the end come.

Re:14:6:
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven,
having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation,
and kindred,
and tongue,
and people,

That's a very important OD-Rev pair. But its important to understand that I interpret "all the earth" there as "all the inhabited land" centered on Jerusalem and extending as far out as Paul's travels.

The next event after this is Christ claiming the Earth.

The abomination mentioned is still a yet to be thing. It is when Satan & Co do this,

Re:13:14:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast,
which had the wound by a sword,
and did live.

If that image has anything to do with this verse then they are in Jerusalem.
2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

I agree that 2 Thess 2:4 is linked to the AOD. But I believe that is long past, it happened in the literal Temple just prior to its desolation in 70 AD.

The abomination mentioned in Daniel is not in ch:9, this is the abomination that is the sign to scatter (if you are in Judea)

Da:11:31:
And arms shall stand on his part,
and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength,
and shall take away the daily sacrifice,
and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Da:11:45:
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;
yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

I don't have a strong opinion about Dan 11 yet. It requires more study. But I am convinced that Dan 9 is fulfilled with the Christ in 30-33 AD, which led to the physical destruction in 70 AD. Note that Dan 9:26 does not place the destruction in the 70th week, but allows for it to happen after which is key.

So you believe the events of Revelation are still future? Myself, I think they were fulfilled in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and the scattering of the Jews, as Christ predicted:
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

For the most part, one exception is that ch:12 seems to cover 3 times Satan had had dealings with man, the 3 most important. Eve, the time Jesus was here, and the time he still has coming.

Eve? Are you saying the woman in Chpt 12 is Eve? I see her as Israel "from whom is the Christ (manchild)."

So you see Rev as mostly future. That's interesing. Do you have any verses that support that idea?

Perhaps I should rephrase my comment. A lot of events are repeated in Scripture, the more important the event the more verses. Say there is one event covered in all of the 1st four Gospels, they all basically say the same thing but unless you read all of them there is a chance some point may be in one report but not in the other 3.

I am not saying there is no relationship. It is just from a slightly different POV than the seals. This verse would seem to cover more than 1 seal,

M't:24:7:
For nation shall rise against nation,
and kingdom against kingdom:
and there shall be famines,
and pestilences,
and earthquakes,
in divers places.
M't:24:8:
All these are the beginning of sorrows.

It sure seems to cover more than 1. The first few trumps would also be enough to at least start the same consequences.
Yes, there are lots of "overlaps."

The second rider is red and he has a sword. Romans 13 speaks of servants of God that are given a sword to combat evil with. More or less that would be the governments of the Nations. Red meaning that the use the sword for something other than originally intended, to the detriment of the people it is supposed to protect.

That seems like a bit of a stretch because the symbol is one of warfare, not governmental rule.

Well, I'm starting to get an idea of how you understand things. It usually takes a little while to just understand someone's basic interpretational approach to Rev. And on that note, it might be more fruitful if you took a "step back" and introduced me to your basic presuppositions about Biblical eschatology. Myself, I'm pretty well described as a "preterist" so long as you don't import conclusions concerning the "Second Coming" and the "Resurrection" being past. I believe all of Revelation is fulfilled - the New Jerusalem is the Church, etc. There's a lot to talk about ... it should be fun, and hopefully fruitful.

God bless!

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough

11-24-2007, 09:16 PM

Therefore, the OD matches perfectly with the seals, and IMO, the seals is a representation [or spiritual truth] of what was about to happen to Jerusalem.
Yep! I agree.

A mistake I often see people make is they assume that Revelation in its entirety is sequential, from the first chapter to the last. However, IMO, it not sequential, but the same events from a different perspective. The seals appear to be the preparation of Jerusalem's end and it explains how everything got started, as well as why it got started.

William Hendriksen's "More than Conquerors" is an excellent interpretation that sees Revelation as a series of recapitulations of the Gospel story from Christ's first to his second Advents. Its very interesting and has a lot of merit, but I don't buy it as a whole because he overlooks the first century fulfillment in the destruction of Jerusalem. But I think the idea of recapitulation is valid, though I am currently reevaluating it in light of all these new insights that are gushing forth from our discussions. For example, Rev 14 is like a "mini-apocalypse" that goes from Pentecost when the first of the 144,000 literal Jews were sealed with the Holy Spirit and culminates in the Coming of Christ on Clouds to judge Jerusalem (hence "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" Rev 14:8). The same destruction is pictured again later in Rev 18.

Richard

MHz

12-01-2007, 09:19 AM

Hi Richard,

It seems to me that the OD and Rev are talking about the same series of events, and both start at roughly the same time. That's why Rev begins with "the things that must shortly come to pass ... for the time is at hand." Of course, that demands a pre 70 AD date of composition which is highly contested by some folks.
Does this also cover the trumps and vials and the thousand years and Satan's 'little season' and Judgment Day and the revealing of NJ?

Probably after since it corresponds to the Red Horse in Rev 6.

What wars would they have heard about in those 4 decades? I thought Rome was pretty solid at that time.

That's a very important OD-Rev pair. But its important to understand that I interpret "all the earth" there as "all the inhabited land" centered on Jerusalem and extending as far out as Paul's travels.
Is there any text that says Christ will only come for that small area?

I agree that 2 Thess 2:4 is linked to the AOD. But I believe that is long past, it happened in the literal Temple just prior to its desolation in 70 AD.
The man of sin was a Roman then? That kinda conflicts with 'the people of the prince to come' in Daniel. Since that man comes after Satan when was Satan there after the cross? That man is sitting in the temple of God before he is revealed, it is Christ's return that causes him to be revealed and then he is destroyed. Shouldn't Christ have returned before the temple was thrown down then?

I don't have a strong opinion about Dan 11 yet. It requires more study. But I am convinced that Dan 9 is fulfilled with the Christ in 30-33 AD, which led to the physical destruction in 70 AD. Note that Dan 9:26 does not place the destruction in the 70th week, but allows for it to happen after which is key.

What about ch:8, did Rome accomplish anything associated with the 1 out of 4 horns?
Da:8:11: Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

It also seems like this king survives for a time, which Rome also did.
Da:8:12: And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

The one after this (iron and clay) does not win when it comes up against Christ, when it says also does that mean it was not the first time somebody came up against the Prince of princes?
Da:8:25: And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Does Da:11:21 & 24 says he comes in peaceably?

Eve? Are you saying the woman in Chpt 12 is Eve? I see her as Israel "from whom is the Christ (manchild)."
Eve is the 1st woman, the one given pain. Vs:4 is about Israel at the time of Jesus. The next woman is protected from what all the trumps bring. Other than the 144,000 nobody from those 12 tribes is protected at that time.

So you see Rev as mostly future. That's interesing. Do you have any verses that support that idea?
Yes, that is how I came to believe it is true.

Yes, there are lots of "overlaps."

That seems like a bit of a stretch because the symbol is one of warfare, not governmental rule.
Who has the authority to wield a sword and is a servant of God? Who are the servants of Romans 13? Hard to see Christians as being those servants in that the sword is used when we are told not to kill.,
Ro:13:4: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Well, I'm starting to get an idea of how you understand things. It usually takes a little while to just understand someone's basic interpretational approach to Rev. And on that note, it might be more fruitful if you took a "step back" and introduced me to your basic presuppositions about Biblical eschatology. Myself, I'm pretty well described as a "preterist" so long as you don't import conclusions concerning the "Second Coming" and the "Resurrection" being past. I believe all of Revelation is fulfilled - the New Jerusalem is the Church, etc. There's a lot to talk about ... it should be fun, and hopefully fruitful.

Doesn't that book cover both things you don't see as being past?

Wayne

Richard Amiel McGough

12-01-2007, 11:49 AM

Hi Richard,

Does this also cover the trumps and vials and the thousand years and Satan's 'little season' and Judgment Day and the revealing of NJ?
Hello my friend,

As I see it, the the trumps and vials were fulfilled in the events leading up to 70 AD, and the NJ is the Church, so all that is covered. But I have not come to a sure interpretation of the 1000 years because God did not make the meaning of that passage obvious. The problem is that there are no other verses in the Bible that speak of the 1000 years so we have no way to confirm any interpretation, yours or mine. The interp of Rev 20 depends entirely upon the overall eschatological interp.

As for Judgment day, that looks like future. And that may be the proper interp of Rev 20 - it looks like John got a glimpse of the Big Pic of the Church age (1000 years) followed by the Gog war and final judgment. But I don't know. God did not give us much confirmatory info on that, and we should not shout when the Bible is nearly silent.

What wars would they have heard about in those 4 decades? I thought Rome was pretty solid at that time.
Yes, Rome was solid, but how secure was Israel and other surrounding nations? That part of the world has always been a warzone. Christ's words make good sense. I don't have a list of armed conflicts in Palestine between 30-70 AD ready to share, but I could look into it if you want to pursue this point. And I would guess Joe could provide a list. Hey Joe? You listening?

That's a very important OD-Rev pair. But its important to understand that I interpret "all the earth" there as "all the inhabited land" centered on Jerusalem and extending as far out as Paul's travels.
Is there any text that says Christ will only come for that small area?
I never said anything remotely suggesting that Chirst came only for "that small area." The point is that the prophecy concerned the events in "that small area" which, by the way, was not small at all since it was refering to the entire "world" of the first century Jews.

I agree that 2 Thess 2:4 is linked to the AOD. But I believe that is long past, it happened in the literal Temple just prior to its desolation in 70 AD.
The man of sin was a Roman then? That kinda conflicts with 'the people of the prince to come' in Daniel. Since that man comes after Satan when was Satan there after the cross? That man is sitting in the temple of God before he is revealed, it is Christ's return that causes him to be revealed and then he is destroyed. Shouldn't Christ have returned before the temple was thrown down then?

No, the man of sin is not roman. As explained in previous posts, I think (though I am not sure yet) that he was the Jewish "False Prophet" high priest marching around the temple desecrating it as he saw fit as if he were God Himself.

Your question "Since that man comes after Satan when was Satan there after the cross?" seems based on a misinterpretation of the word "after" in 2 Thess 2:9. The phrase "after the working of Satan" means "according to the working of Satan." It has nothing to do with a temporal before and after.

"Christ's return" in this context refers to His destruction of the man of sin and the Temple in which he had set up shop.

What about ch:8, did Rome accomplish anything associated with the 1 out of 4 horns?
Da:8:11: Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

It also seems like this king survives for a time, which Rome also did.
Da:8:12: And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

The one after this (iron and clay) does not win when it comes up against Christ, when it says also does that mean it was not the first time somebody came up against the Prince of princes?
Da:8:25: And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Does Da:11:21 & 24 says he comes in peaceably?

I still need to study Dan chaps 8 and 11, so I don't have any ready answers to those questions. But I am very confident of my interpretation of 7, 9, and 12, and those are the ones that were clearly fulfilled in the first century and correspond to Rev.

Eve? Are you saying the woman in Chpt 12 is Eve? I see her as Israel "from whom is the Christ (manchild)."
Eve is the 1st woman, the one given pain. Vs:4 is about Israel at the time of Jesus. The next woman is protected from what all the trumps bring. Other than the 144,000 nobody from those 12 tribes is protected at that time.
Are you saying that the woman in Rev 12:1 is Eve? That doesn't make sense to me at all. She is Israel, as is clear from the symbology. There is only one woman in Rev 12.

So you see Rev as mostly future. That's interesing. Do you have any verses that support that idea?
Yes, that is how I came to believe it is true.

Great! Do you plan on sharing that evidence with us? It seems to me that the preterist view is based on hundreds of mutually confirming verses of the Bible and solid historical facts. What is your futurist interpretation built on?

Well, I'm starting to get an idea of how you understand things. It usually takes a little while to just understand someone's basic interpretational approach to Rev. And on that note, it might be more fruitful if you took a "step back" and introduced me to your basic presuppositions about Biblical eschatology. Myself, I'm pretty well described as a "preterist" so long as you don't import conclusions concerning the "Second Coming" and the "Resurrection" being past. I believe all of Revelation is fulfilled - the New Jerusalem is the Church, etc. There's a lot to talk about ... it should be fun, and hopefully fruitful.
Doesn't that book cover both things you don't see as being past?

Wayne
Yes, it says it covers things that were past, present, and future relative to when it was written in the first century. Are there still aspects future? Sure, in as much as God gave John a slight glimpse of the final judgement day in Rev 20. But the NJ is now and has been since its inception at Pentecost almost 2000 years ago. Don't be confuse by the sequence of Rev. The fact that the vision of the NJ was given after the vision of all the bloodshed and war in the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD does NOT imply that is the historical sequence of events. The sequence could be an artifact of the one dimensional linear representation imposed by the limitations of human modes of expression. We can't say everything at once, so we impose an order, describing this part first and that part second, when in fact they both exist simultaneously.

Richard

TheForgiven

12-01-2007, 12:39 PM

I believe it's 100% correct to show that the Mt. Olive Discourse lines up perfectly with the seven seals. Having said that, I'm very curious about the Tribulation period. We know there were to events of suffering which took place prior to Jerusalem's destruction.

1. Persecution of the Christians by Nero Caesar and the Jews.
2. Persecution of the Jews by the Roman Soldiers

I've never actually tried to narrow down the Tribulation, whether it's a Tribulation of the Christians, or the Tribulation of the false Jews. Using Mark's account, which does match the other gospels (Matthew and Luke) the answers are obvious, that this marks a past event from our perspective, but a future event from the perspective of the Apostles.

Reviewing Mark:

Mark 13:
14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days. 21 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

We can clearly see that the Great Tribulation was applicable to those left within Judea, as indicated by the underlined verses. The Tribulation is not applicable to the Christians, for it was they who adhered to the warning to "Flee to the mountains". And historically speaking, the Jews fled to Mt. Pella and remained their for the duration of the Tribulation. My speculation of course was that some fled to the Nations in Asia Minor, though again, this is mere speculation. So using the scriptures alone, we must conclude that the Saints fled to Pella and awaited the completion of this time of wrath. The false Jews who did not accept Jesus as king were left unto judgment and wrath of fire, which we know destroyed not only the entire temple, leaving "not one stone" unturned, but also the entire city, as recorded by Josephus in "Wars of the Jews".

But look what follows AFTER the Tribulation. It's here that we are told that a sign in the sun, moon, and the stars will occur, and that the powers of the heavens will be shaken, and they would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of power and great glory.

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

This matches with Revelation chapter 1:

7 Behold, He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him, and they also who pierced Him; and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so. Amen.

Therefore, I'd say that Revelation must have been applicable to the destruction of Jerusalem as John was showing the "cloud coming" as indicated by Matthew, Mark, and Luke. And this "coming with the cloud" has to do with the Post Tribulation Period.

So after the Tribulation and destruction of the Jews, we have our time in which Christ uses the figurative signs of change; a change in sun, moon, and stars. I'm fully aware of the literal interpreter's who will expect these things to actually happen. But this, IMO, is figurative.

The Sun is a figure for the Holiness and knowledge of God.
The Moon is a figure applied to Israel
The Moon into blood is a figure for the death of the former moon.
And the falling stars if a figure for the deaths of the children of Israel.

All of this is a picture of change. In the Old Law, they were required to record each "New Moon" and would declare the new month. I propose that the former moon was phased away in 70AD, and the New Moon had come. The stars would be added to the children of Abraham, as promised to the Patriarch, and the Sun would regain its light (as indicated by Revelation), only this time it would never be taken away.

In conclusion, the Great Tribulation occurred in 66AD to 70AD, and was completed. The former moon was destroyed, and the New Moon brought in a new time, the children of the stars shinned bright and were more numerous than the stars of the sky, and the Kingdom of God had been completed. Of course the Romans would be next in line, based on my studies thus far. Jerusalem had been destroyed and rebuilt, and the Nations would go through the same stages of replacement. And we know historically that all of this took place in the first century....not without a great deal of blood shed I might add. But the seventh trumpet in Revelation was fulfilled, thus completing the mystery of God.

Revelation 11: The Seventh Trumpet
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“ We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant[h] was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

I just love it when God's word aligns with each other in harmony and perfection. Amen!

God's peace to you all.

Joe