Deeper Mystery

[Bob May]

In JN 3:3 Jesus tells Nicodemus that unless you are born again you cannot see the kingdom of God. Then in JN 3:5 he says that unless you are born of water and Spirit you cannot enter. Which is the greater mystery? Seeing or entering? Bob

[Richard Amiel McGough]

In JN 3:3 Jesus tells Nicodemus that unless you are born again you cannot see the kingdom of God. Then in JN 3:5 he says that unless you are born of water and Spirit you cannot enter. Which is the greater mystery? Seeing or entering? Bob
I think the words are being used synonymously in that context.

Occam's Razor comes to mind. "Plurality should not be posited without necessity." I see nothing in the text, or the larger context of the NT, that suggests Jesus was saying that "born again people" can only "see" the kingdom whereas "people born of water and spirit" can "enter" the kingdom.

[Bob May]

I think the words are being used synonymously in that context.

Occam's Razor comes to mind. "Plurality should not be posited without necessity." I see nothing in the text, or the larger context of the NT, that suggests Jesus was saying that "born again people" can only "see" the kingdom whereas "people born of water and spirit" can "enter" the kingdom.
Hi Richard, I'm doing this on a Kindle so will keep it short. Idon't see a difference in born again and born of the Spirit. But do in enter and see. Born of Spirit is a prerequisite to both seeing and entering. Without that birth, neither can happen.
Just looking for opinions and others insights. Any answer is a good answer. I have not come to any conclusions on this. Bob

[heb13-13]

Hi Richard, I'm doing this on a Kindle so will keep it short. Idon't see a difference in born again and born of the Spirit. But do in enter and see. Born of Spirit is a prerequisite to both seeing and entering. Without that birth, neither can happen.
Just looking for opinions and others insights. Any answer is a good answer. I have not come to any conclusions on this. Bob

Hi Bob,

Since we are not born of the spirit (God's Spirit) when we come into existence then it would be synonymous with being born-again.

Rick

[David M]

Hi Bob

I do believe baptism is essential. If a person knows about baptism and has read Romans ch 6 then they ought again to realize that it is necessary be baptised. Jesus had no need to be baptised for the remission of sins (as John said), but Jesus said it was necessary to do in order to fulfil all righteousness and so Jesus showed by example that it was necessary and he let John baptise him.

Many people say they believe and yet do not consider baptism necessary. You could say that they know of the kingdom and can see the message of the Gospel, but if they do not committ to baptism, they run the risk of not entering the kingdom.

Unless a person is born of the water (baptism) then they should fear what Jesus says. Some are baptised and later lose their faith, in which case, if their faith has died it is like not remaining born of the Spirit and again they could lose any right to be in the Kingdom. Once committed you have to keep going; hence the parable of the ploughman.

Bob, I hope this is not too long for your Kindle.


David

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard, I'm doing this on a Kindle so will keep it short. Idon't see a difference in born again and born of the Spirit. But do in enter and see. Born of Spirit is a prerequisite to both seeing and entering. Without that birth, neither can happen.
Just looking for opinions and others insights. Any answer is a good answer. I have not come to any conclusions on this. Bob
Hey there Bob,

OK - let me see if I can understand your point.

John 3:3 - Unless you are born again, you cannot see the kingdom.
John 3:5 - Unless you are born of spirit and water you cannot enter the kingdom.

The prerequisites appear to be the same in both verses - birth is necessary before one can either see or enter the kingdom.

That's why I said the terms appear to be synonymous in this context. Is there a reason you reject the idea that to "see" the kingdom means to "enter" it? We use that kind of language all the time. Did you see Disney World with your kids? If you say yes, would it be reasonable for me to ask "That's great! Do you think you will ever go there?" You'd look at me like I was pretty dumb, wouldn't you? We both know that to "see" and to "enter" can be the same in many contexts. I think this is one of them.

[Bob May]

Hi Rick, That is true. But it was not my question. Which is the deeper mystery?,... Entering or Seeing? If you think that the question is invalid, then that is OK, That's your answer. It is not a trick question. Bob

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Bob

I do believe baptism is essential. If a person knows about baptism and has read Romans ch 6 then they ought again to realize that it is necessary be baptised. Jesus had no need to be baptised for the remission of sins (as John said), but Jesus said it was necessary to do in order to fulfil all righteousness and so Jesus showed by example that it was necessary and he let John baptise him.

Many people say they believe and yet do not consider baptism necessary. You could say that they know of the kingdom and can see the message of the Gospel, but if they do not committ to baptism, they run the risk of not entering the kingdom.

Unless a person is born of the water (baptism) then they should fear what Jesus says. Some are baptised and later lose their faith, in which case, if their faith has died it is like not remaining born of the Spirit and again they could lose any right to be in the Kingdom. Once committed you have to keep going; hence the parable of the ploughman.

Bob, I hope this is not too long for your Kindle.


David
Hey there David,

Please don't take this wrong. I certainly mean no offense, but I delight in plain speech. You seem to adhere to many of the classic "cult doctrines." You believe we should keep sabbath, that baptism is necessary to salvation, and that Jesus was not God. Where did you learn your religion? I get the impression you were a member of Herbert Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God, or are follower of one of the groups that split off after Armstrong's death. Is that correct? He taught those three doctrines.

In any case, I'm sorry if my question offends. But you have come to a place where folks "talk turkey" and I hope you will feel at home here.

All the very best,

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Rick, That is true. But it was not my question. Which is the deeper mystery?,... Entering or Seeing? If you think that the question is invalid, then that is OK, That's your answer. It is not a trick question. Bob
I think you will find your answer if you define the "kingdom" of which Christ spoke.

What is the nature of the kingdom? Is it a physical place that a person can "enter?" Or is it a spiritual kingdom, with both "seeing" and "entering" being metaphors for the same thing?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

KJV Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

How does the son of man "come" "in" his kingdom?

[Bob May]

Hi Bob

I do believe baptism is essential. If a person knows about baptism and has read Romans ch 6 then they ought again to realize that it is necessary be baptised. Jesus had no need to be baptised for the remission of sins (as John said), but Jesus said it was necessary to do in order to fulfil all righteousness and so Jesus showed by example that it was necessary and he let John baptise him.

Many people say they believe and yet do not consider baptism necessary. You could say that they know of the kingdom and can see the message of the Gospel, but if they do not committ to baptism, they run the risk of not entering the kingdom.

Unless a person is born of the water (baptism) then they should fear what Jesus says. Some are baptised and later lose their faith, in which case, if their faith has died it is like not remaining born of the Spirit and again they could lose any right to be in the Kingdom. Once committed you have to keep going; hence the parable of the ploughman.

Bob, I hope this is not too long for your Kindle.


David
Hi David, Good, So you think
Entering is a deeper or more profound experience than seeing. Bob

[CWH]

In JN 3:3 Jesus tells Nicodemus that unless you are born again you cannot see the kingdom of God. Then in JN 3:5 he says that unless you are born of water and Spirit you cannot enter. Which is the greater mystery? Seeing or entering? Bob

I don't see much difficulty in those passages. I see the kingdom of heaven as a physical place both on earth as it is in heaven.

Now let's imagine that the kingdom of heaven happened in the 21st century, then Jesus was right by telling Nicodemius that he cannot see the kingdom of heaven since he was born in the 1st century and he will need to be born again during the 21st century in order to see the kingdom of heaven.
The next moment Nicodemius asked was by taking Jesus answer literally saying if one could go into the mother's womb and be born again. Jesus thought that Nicodemius have asked a "stupid" question and rephrase his answer by saying that in order to enter the kingdom of heaven you will need to become God's people (born of water and the Spirit = baptised with the Holy Spirit). This is also in reply to ?Nicodemius question or another person's question of "How can one enters into the kingdom of heaven?".

John 3:1 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, 'Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.'
3 Jesus replied, 'Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]'

4 'How can someone be born when they are old?' Nicodemus asked. 'Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!'

5 Jesus answered, 'Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Hope this helps.

May God Bless Us. :pray:

[Bob May]

Hey there Bob,

OK - let me see if I can understand your point.

John 3:3 - Unless you are born again, you cannot see the kingdom.
John 3:5 - Unless you are born of spirit and water you cannot enter the kingdom.

The prerequisites appear to be the same in both verses - birth is necessary before one can either see or enter the kingdom.

That's why I said the terms appear to be synonymous in this context. Is there a reason you reject the idea that to "see" the kingdom means to "enter" it? We use that kind of language all the time. Did you see Disney World with your kids? If you say yes, would it be reasonable for me to ask "That's great! Do you think you will ever go there?" You'd look at me like I was pretty dumb, wouldn't you? We both know that to "see" and to "enter" can be the same in many contexts. I think this is one of them.

Hi Richard, So you basically think the questio is invalid. That's fine, it may be. I could be wrong. Stranger things have happened!!! But your analogy is a little weak. If a blind man went to Disney world wouldn't he be there? So we can be in the kingdom without seeing anything, Correct? Contrarywise, we could see it, as in get a glymse of it without entering it. So, I guess there arethree possile answers. Seeing, entering or the question is invalid. But i would like to see some of the reasoons for your answers. Bob

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard, So you basically think the questio is invalid. That's fine, it may be. I could be wrong. Stranger things have happened!!! But your analogy is a little weak. If a blind man went to Disney world wouldn't he be there? So we can be in the kingdom without seeing anything, Correct? Contrarywise, we could see it, as in get a glymse of it without entering it. So, I guess there arethree possile answers. Seeing, entering or the question is invalid. But i would like to see some of the reasoons for your answers. Bob
Now you confusing yourself with words. A blind man can "see" the kingdom in the sense intended by Jesus in John 3:3. I had a blind friend in college. He would frequently say things like "nice to see you." Of course, he was a bit of a comedian, but still, he could legitimately use the word "see" in that sense. You are being waaaaayyyyy too literal with "see."

I did not say the question was invalid. I simply answered it. The terms appear to be synonymous in that context. If you think my answer is invalid, that's fine! It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong. :winking0071:

Now as for your suggestion that Christ intended to communicate a difference between seeing and entering. Why then did he give the same prerequisite (birth) for both cases?

[jce]

In JN 3:3 Jesus tells Nicodemus that unless you are born again you cannot see the kingdom of God. Then in JN 3:5 he says that unless you are born of water and Spirit you cannot enter. Which is the greater mystery? Seeing or entering? Bob

Hi Bob

Good question.

I see the statements as being conditional or qualifying requirements. The first statement implies that it takes spiritual eyes to see the kingdom. The second requirement is that one must also be born of water, such as in human delivery into the world. This could be a requirement that creatures of the spirit world cannot meet since they may not be born of water but a special creation, thus prohiting them from entry into the kingdom. God is a pretty good lawyer and does not waste words.

John

[David M]

Hi David, Good, So you think
Entering is a deeper or more profound experience than seeing. Bob

Yes Bob, I agree that entering is a more profound than seeing. It is less of an experience seeing something from afar than being up close up.

It has parallels with the Children of Israel entering the Promised Land after they came out of Eygpt. Moses saw the land, but he did not enter it. You could say that it was a more profound experience for those who entered the Land. To only see something and not experience it has to be a big difference.

Jesus is talking about the same subject but at different stages. Jeus gave the first stage and since Nicodemous questioned further, Jesus went on to explain the second stage. The first stage is that you have to see the kingdom which is before you. Once you see the kingdom, you have to know what the requirement is to be able to enter the kingdom.

David

[Bob May]

Hi Richard, If what you say is true, that Jesus was using see and enter synonomously, then my question has no validity. I am no more confused than usual!!! Just looking for opinions. As for the prerequisite thing, hows this ? There was a story I read somewhere in which a guy was emigrating to the USA. He saved up all his money for years to buy a ticket. Each day of the trip he would go to where the rich passengers were eating and watch them eat fancy food while he had to eat stale bread that he brought with him. it wasn't until the very last day of the trip that someone told him that the food was includued in the price of his tiicket. So the same prerequisite for the trip, also applied top the meals. He just had'nt thought to ask. Bob

[Bob May]

Yes Bob, I agree that entering is a more profound than seeing. It is less of an experience seeing something from afar than being up close up.

It has parallels with the Children of Israel entering the Promised Land after they came out of Eygpt. Moses saw the land, but he did not enter it. You could say that it was a more profound experience for those who entered the Land. To only see something and not experience it has to be a big difference.

Jesus is talking about the same subject but at different stages. Jeus gave the first stage and since Nicodemous questioned further, Jesus went on to explain the second stage. The first stage is that you have to see the kingdom which is before you. Once you see the kingdom, you have to know what the requirement is to be able to enter the kingdom.

David

Hi David. you make a very good case with Moses and the promised land. It also seems to fit wih Jesus telling Thomas blessed are those who not seeing still believe. But you can't agree with me. I haven't given any opinion. Paul says when we see him we will be like him so that would be a very profound experience also. And that we are alreadt standing on MT Zion even thoough we don't see it. But your reading of Moses and the PromisedLland makes a distinction between seeing and entering. Good post, Bob

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard, If what you say is true, that Jesus was using see and enter synonomously, then my question has no validity. I am no more confused than usual!!! Just looking for opinions. As for the prerequisite thing, hows this ? There was a story I read somewhere in which a guy was emigrating to the USA. He saved up all his money for years to buy a ticket. Each day of the trip he would go to where the rich passengers were eating and watch them eat fancy food while he had to eat stale bread that he brought with him. it wasn't until the very last day of the trip that someone told him that the food was includued in the price of his tiicket. So the same prerequisite for the trip, also applied top the meals. He just had'nt thought to ask. Bob
OK - let's look at that anology. It seems to imply that Jesus was teaching that some born again Christians will only "see" the kingdom, while other born again Christians would "enter" it.

If you want to invent a doctrine like this, I think it is incumbant upon you to give two or three other verses that would support it. Sound reasonable?

[Bob May]

OK - let's look at that anology. It seems to imply that Jesus was teaching that some born again Christians will only "see" the kingdom, while other born again Christians would "enter" it.

If you want to invent a doctrine like this, I think it is incumbant upon you to give two or three other verses that would support it. Sound reasonable?

You are very suspicious Richard. You could just as well said that I was implying that some would only enter iit while others would see it. I am looking for opinions. It is not incumbent on me to come up with two or three verses. I really am looking for others opinions on something I haven't yet gotten straight iin my mind. The analogy is that the guy «entered» the ship before he «saw» the food. The prerequisite covered both things. . So we can enter the kingdom without seeing it which I think applies to most Christians. Having had some visions though I can appreciate the profound effect that they can have on an individual. Nevertheless I have come to believe that what we learn from Spiritual experiences is much more important than what we see. Thomas saw and then believed (entered). Moses saw but didn't enter. And Thomas was told that there werre some, (blessed) which would enter (believe) without seeing. I'm not trying to prove anythng. Just trying too understand it. Bob

[debz]

Hi Bob, Richard, and all…

I love this topic—good question! Of course, I have my own opinion ;-)

First, as Richard pointed out, it depends on our definition of kingdom. If we believe, as most Christians seem to, that 'entering the kingdom' is synonymous with 'going to heaven after we die, because we are saved,' then the question will obviously have different interpretations. Then we will apply many verses (such as necessity of baptism) in order to 'go to heaven after we die,' etc.

However, if we see the kingdom as a realm—both available now and in an afterlife—as I believe Jesus taught, then the question takes on new meaning. Jesus’ whole message was 'change your way of thinking, because the kingdom of heaven is available now ('at hand').'

Bob, it goes back to the 'Tabernacle Blueprint' thing: Outer Court = Jesus as ‘The Way’; Holy Place = Jesus as ‘The Truth’; Most Holy Place = Jesus as ‘The Life’ When someone accepts Jesus as ‘The Way,’ by believing in Him they are saved and they metaphorically enter the Outer Court realm—in that realm are the options of proceeding as the priests did: going to the altar (taking up cross/laying down own life), then proceeding to the laver (water baptism), THEN, in order to 'ENTER' the door to the Holy Place, they had to be anointed with oil, representative of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I believe the Most Holy Place realm is representative of the Kingdom itself. In order to 'see' that realm, you have to first enter the Holy Place—being 'born of water and spirit'—then you have 'eyes to see what the Spirit is saying' – when you can 'SEE' what is available in the next realm, you could potentially ENTER that realm – that is the ultimate goal – getting into that 'Most Holy Place'/Kingdom realm – while we are still on earth! I believe that was Paul’s entire message—to mature until we reach that mature man 'fullness,' (Eph), attain that place of glory, etc., etc. That is where we SEE Him face-to-face and reach 'perfection'…until then, we 'see in part and know in part' –

So, IMO, entering is the greater mystery. And it is also seen in the typology that David M pointed out: entering the Promised Land…not all entered that rest, but it is available to all, and it is the ultimate goal.

Deb

Edit: adding a link to the "Tabernacle Blueprint" doc I attached on a previous thread, because it covers this very topic in more depth:

285

[heb13-13]

Hi Rick, That is true. But it was not my question. Which is the deeper mystery?,... Entering or Seeing? If you think that the question is invalid, then that is OK, That's your answer. It is not a trick question. Bob

I'm sorry, Bob. I admit I did not "see" that delineation. I will think about it.

Rick

[Bob May]

Hi Deb,
Thanks Deb.
I actually thought about what you were saying of the Kingdom of Heaven (being available now) on my way home from work. I should have explained that.
I don't think of going to heaven after we die when I see the phrase Kingdom of Heaven or Kingdom of God.
According to the Qabala this plane of matter we live in is called the "Bride" or "Kingdom". So the Kingdom of Heaven is Heaven here on earth.
So in that sense we can enter it or we can see it or both. Or neither. And in what order?
There may not be an answer or it may be it is no set thing as in the same for everyone.

Bob

[Bob May]

I think you will find your answer if you define the "kingdom" of which Christ spoke.

What is the nature of the kingdom? Is it a physical place that a person can "enter?" Or is it a spiritual kingdom, with both "seeing" and "entering" being metaphors for the same thing?

Hi Richard,
Like I said, I was on a Kindle. I completely missed this post as it was probably posted while I was wrestling with the little keys and refreshing in between... My apologies.
I think it is a spiritual condition that we enter when we believe. And we can also see aspects of it. How far that seeing goes, I don't know.

Bob

[Bob May]

Hi Bob, Richard, and all…

I love this topic—good question! Of course, I have my own opinion ;-)

However, if we see the kingdom as a realm—both available now and in an afterlife—as I believe Jesus taught, then the question takes on new meaning. Jesus’ whole message was 'change your way of thinking, because the kingdom of heaven is available now ('at hand').'




And maybe this is what we have to "see." That it is something that is available now. Because Jesus said "See" first in verse JN 3:3
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
So, to change the way we think is really the first prerequisite to going any further whether into the outer court, Holy place, or Holy of Holies. John the Baptist's message, in other words. "Repent, for the Kingdom is at hand."



Bob, it goes back to the 'Tabernacle Blueprint' thing: Outer Court = Jesus as ‘The Way’; Holy Place = Jesus as ‘The Truth’; Most Holy Place = Jesus as ‘The Life’ When someone accepts Jesus as ‘The Way,’ by believing in Him they are saved and they metaphorically enter the Outer Court realm—in that realm are the options of proceeding as the priests did: going to the altar (taking up cross/laying down own life), then proceeding to the laver (water baptism), THEN, in order to 'ENTER' the door to the Holy Place, they had to be anointed with oil, representative of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.


In the book of acts water baptism was performed as a sign of the belief that was already there. So, belief would get you into the outer court where you would then be baptized (laver). This was the normal way of things. Though there were some recieved the baptism if Spirit (air) already and were then Baptised.
Ac 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Ac 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
In other words, they had already recieved from God the baptism of air. Who was Peter to refuse them the water as a symbol of their already seeing and entering of the outer court and even beyond, into the Holy Place. (Air)



I believe the Most Holy Place realm is representative of the Kingdom itself. In order to 'see' that realm, you have to first enter the Holy Place—being 'born of water and spirit'—then you have 'eyes to see what the Spirit is saying' – when you can 'SEE' what is available in the next realm, you could potentially ENTER that realm – that is the ultimate goal – getting into that 'Most Holy Place'/Kingdom realm – while we are still on earth! I believe that was Paul’s entire message—to mature until we reach that mature man 'fullness,' (Eph), attain that place of glory, etc., etc. That is where we SEE Him face-to-face and reach 'perfection'…until then, we 'see in part and know in part' –


Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

OK, so we have three places in the Tabernacle. Outer court, Holy place, and Holy of Holies. Instead of saying seeing and entering, seeing and entering, seeing and entering, Jesus in JN 3:3 and 3:5 is saying "seeing" in regards to the first, Outer Court segment (ie. belief) and "entering" in regards to the Holy of Holies. If I am reading you correctly.
It makes sense to me for two reasons.

Firstly, because JN 3:5 says that there are two prerequisites to get to the third segment, or Holiest of All. Meaning we must first go through water and Spirit (air).
And secondly, because you will have had to experience something not apparent to normal consciousness (air) in order to understand or experience the next step.

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

So, Jesus is referring here to someone/anyone who has recieved from the baptism of air/Spirit/Holy Place. They know something and have seen something that is not apparent to everyone.



So, IMO, entering is the greater mystery. And it is also seen in the typology that David M pointed out: entering the Promised Land…not all entered that rest, but it is available to all, and it is the ultimate goal.

Deb

Edit: adding a link to the "Tabernacle Blueprint" doc I attached on a previous thread, because it covers this very topic in more depth:

285

Hi again Deb,
Good post. I hope I am understanding you correctly and not twisting anything.

Bob

[debz]

And maybe this is what we have to "see." That it is something that is available now. Because Jesus said "See" first in verse JN 3:3

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So, to change the way we think is really the first prerequisite to going any further whether into the outer court, Holy place, or Holy of Holies. John the Baptist's message, in other words. "Repent, for the Kingdom is at hand."

Yes, I believe all accessing, or experiencing, the kingdom will begin with first being able to "see" that. To "see" and understand what exactly Jesus reveals that is available. That is why He always spoke in parables when speaking about the Kingdom, and why He only explained the meaning of the parables to those who were closest to Him.


Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

OK, so we have three places in the Tabernacle. Outer court, Holy place, and Holy of Holies. Instead of saying seeing and entering, seeing and entering, seeing and entering, Jesus in JN 3:3 and 3:5 is saying "seeing" in regards to the first, Outer Court segment (ie. belief) and "entering" in regards to the Holy of Holies. If I am reading you correctly.

Actually the way I see it is "belief" (entering Outer Court) is not "seeing" in this instance. "Seeing" is a result of being born-again by Spirit and water and we begin to "see" when we enter the Holy Place Realm. But I do not believe being born-again happens when you first believe. Think of the 'born again' process in the same way as natural birth. First there is conception (the deposit of the spirit seed which creates new life), which occurs at salvation (entering Outer Court); but to 'see' and 'enter' the kingdom realm, the Spirit must give birth to the spirit in you. It can happen quickly--like we see throughout the book of Acts--people being born of Spirit near or at time of belief--that is the way I believe it is meant to be. However, for many, particularly in today's church, they have that Spirit seed of conception, but never go through the Spirit baptism to be born again into the kingdom realm, which includes Holy Place and Most Holy Place. When they come into that Holy Place realm, that is where they are "newborn babes" and then are meant to grow up there fully, eventually entering the "Most Holy Place."



It makes sense to me for two reasons.

Firstly, because JN 3:5 says that there are two prerequisites to get to the third segment, or Holiest of All. Meaning we must first go through water and Spirit (air).

Again, IMO it is the two prerequisites to get to the Holy Place -- but to clarify, BOTH the Holy Place and Most Holy Place are typologies for "The Kingdom" realm -- we can begin to "see" things of the Kingdom from within the Holy Place, but goal is to grow up and "Enter" the Most Holy Place realm.


And secondly, because you will have had to experience something not apparent to normal consciousness (air) in order to understand or experience the next step.

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

So, Jesus is referring here to someone/anyone who has recieved from the baptism of air/Spirit/Holy Place. They know something and have seen something that is not apparent to everyone.

This is absolutely true. This is why it is hard for anyone still in that "Outer Court" to understand the things of the SPirit...a "natural man" (carnal thinking) cannot understand it.

Deb

[Bob May]

Yes, I believe all accessing, or experiencing, the kingdom will begin with first being able to "see" that. To "see" and understand what exactly Jesus reveals that is available. That is why He always spoke in parables when speaking about the Kingdom, and why He only explained the meaning of the parables to those who were closest to Him.


OK, I'm with you so far.



Actually the way I see it is "belief" (entering Outer Court) is not "seeing" in this instance. "Seeing" is a result of being born-again by Spirit and water and we begin to "see" when we enter the Holy Place Realm. But I do not believe being born-again happens when you first believe. Think of the 'born again' process in the same way as natural birth. First there is conception (the deposit of the spirit seed which creates new life), which occurs at salvation (entering Outer Court); but to 'see' and 'enter' the kingdom realm, the Spirit must give birth to the spirit in you. It can happen quickly--like we see throughout the book of Acts--people being born of Spirit near or at time of belief--that is the way I believe it is meant to be. However, for many, particularly in today's church, they have that Spirit seed of conception, but never go through the Spirit baptism to be born again into the kingdom realm, which includes Holy Place and Most Holy Place. When they come into that Holy Place realm, that is where they are "newborn babes" and then are meant to grow up there fully, eventually entering the "Most Holy Place."


OK, so you believe that you are not born again until the Spirit Baptism. I would think that might present problems.
I'll skip that for now. You also believe that the Kingdom of Heaven includes the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies. I can see that.

The reason for my question which is the deeper mystery has a lot to do with what you said about the book of Acts and what is "normal" in churches today.
I "saw" before I ever read the bible or believed. Due to other "Shamanic" practices.
I believed in the "Christian" sense, long before I understood Grace. I saw more during this interim period, but it was more bible based seeing.
Much later I was water baptized after a long battle to become "worthy" of it.
Again, I saw things and experienced things.

My way of looking at this is that the "Kingdom" is when the whole world changes. In other words we are encompassed with the realization that this world is a completely different place than we are aware of "Normally." It is not merely a singular Vision or Visitation, but an all encompassing awareness. This awareness has enveloped me many times and stays with me for periods of time.
The "flavor" of this other world view has, of course, changed over the years as has my belief system.
So, I have come through a strange journey.
Just trying to sort out what would be the "Normal Journey" from my own.




Again, IMO it is the two prerequisites to get to the Holy Place -- but to clarify, BOTH the Holy Place and Most Holy Place are typologies for "The Kingdom" realm -- we can begin to "see" things of the Kingdom from within the Holy Place, but goal is to grow up and "Enter" the Most Holy Place realm.
Deb

I have lately been reading a book by Bernadette Roberts entitled "What is Self."
Also, I have conversed with a man on another website who has brought the same or similar thoughts.
That the death of Ego is only the beginning of the journey and that the death of self (or self awareness) is what is required thereafter. And further, that there is nothing to see in the latter.
And that the only way to realize that the death of self is by it's absence. In other words, we won't know that it has happened until afterwards looking back at what is missing.

Anyway that may be a bit off the subject.
Thanks Deb, as always your thoughts are a big help.
Bob

[debz]

OK, so you believe that you are not born again until the Spirit Baptism. I would think that might present problems.

:lol: Yes, I'm sure many would disagree with that stance. Predominant teaching in the church has been that you are "born again" when you believe. There is a lot of predominant teaching that I believe is not presented correctly, and it is not how Jesus or early apostles taught it. The only other place in the Bible where the term "born-again" is used is:

1 Peter 1:23-24
23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

If we look at the seed analogy, a seed is first planted (belief in Word), but it has to die (altar), be watered (laver), and be "born again" (entering into new realm) to begin growing. There are several parables that speak of the kingdom as like seed.



The reason for my question which is the deeper mystery has a lot to do with what you said about the book of Acts and what is "normal" in churches today.

I "saw" before I ever read the bible or believed. Due to other "Shamanic" practices.

I believed in the "Christian" sense, long before I understood Grace. I saw more during this interim period, but it was more bible based seeing.

Much later I was water baptized after a long battle to become "worthy" of it.

I just think the apostles, having the pure Word and understanding so much better than most of us today, knew how important this was--it was access to the supernatural spiritual realm (the kingdom), and they wanted everyone to access that immediately--what is "normal" in churches today isn't anywhere near what we see in Acts.

I also believe people can access the supernatural realm, which is a big part of the kingdom, as you did with your experience. It is how psychics operate (prophecy). But I also believe that until you were justified by grace, you were actually accessing that "illegally" -- this is what is meant by the "thief and robber" coming in another way other than through the Gate (Jesus). People can still enter that realm, but Jesus has provided the legal channel, and the only way to actually get to the LIFE (Most Holy Place).

That is really sad that you felt "unworthy" of water baptism for so long -- I am glad you finally found true grace! But I don't necessarily believe the "order" of how things happen are that critical. They are outward signs of what is supposed to have happened in our hearts already.


My way of looking at this is that the "Kingdom" is when the whole world changes. In other words we are encompassed with the realization that this world is a completely different place than we are aware of "Normally." It is not merely a singular Vision or Visitation, but an all encompassing awareness. This awareness has enveloped me many times and stays with me for periods of time.

It is why I love the movie "The Matrix" so much -- I think that movie presents the gospel better than most Christians can. Take the red pill. :winking0071:



The "flavor" of this other world view has, of course, changed over the years as has my belief system.
So, I have come through a strange journey.
Just trying to sort out what would be the "Normal Journey" from my own.

My views and beliefs have changed a lot too. Don't know that there is such a thing as a "normal journey," but do believe that right now veils are being lifted more and more so people are becoming more aware of that illusion/matrix we live in.




I have lately been reading a book by Bernadette Roberts entitled "What is Self."
Also, I have conversed with a man on another website who has brought the same or similar thoughts.
That the death of Ego is only the beginning of the journey and that the death of self (or self awareness) is what is required thereafter. And further, that there is nothing to see in the latter.
And that the only way to realize that the death of self is by it's absence. In other words, we won't know that it has happened until afterwards looking back at what is missing.

Anyway that may be a bit off the subject.
Thanks Deb, as always your thoughts are a big help.
Bob

I have not heard of her, but I do believe that death of "ego" is the path to increased awareness and awakening to the things of the kingdom. It's the exchange of our wills (self-will, self-centered, etc.) for His; as He is formed in us, as we behold Him and His glory, we become more and more like Him, eventually seeing "face-to-face" (in the Most Holy Place--constantly living in the eternal LIFE).

Nice talk!

Deb

[heb13-13]

If you have not received the Spirit of God you are not born-again.

John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, none of His.

Rick

[debz]

If you have not received the Spirit of God you are not born-again.

John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, none of His.

Rick

Hey Rick,

I do hear what you're saying. Maybe I should clarify a bit more...and I will continue using the Tabernacle layout as reference:

The Tabernacle was also the basic layout for the Temple, and the symbolism is represented in both. In the Temple, the Gate was known as 'The Way,' the Door was known as 'The Truth,' and the Veil as 'The Life.' Jesus said 'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through me' (Jn 14.6). Imagine progressing through this Tabernacle: Knowing Him as 'the Way' is the very first step toward our salvation—He has made the way to the Father, and we enter through the Gate when grace (5 pillars) is given to recognize Him as the Way.

'Go ye in through the strait gate, because wide the gate, and broad the way that is leading to the destruction, and many are those going in through it; how strait [is] the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it! Matt 7:13-14 YLT

We enter through The Gate and then are on the compressed, or narrow, 'Way' (knowing Him as The Way) that is leading to The Life, and few are those finding it—in other words, few are those who find The Life, not The Way!

This particular verse is not saying that few will have eternal life, or few will be saved (as is traditionally interpreted)…it is saying few are those who will press on to know Him as The Life and inherit that Life while on earth. For centuries Christians have been interpreting most of Jesus’ teachings as referring to the salvation experience only—but there is so much more to it. He taught about the Kingdom. Consider also that Jesus said if our eye, hand, or foot causes us to stumble, we should cut them off, for it is better to 'enter into the life' blind or maimed than to be cast to the fire (Mt 18:8,9). How could this refer to only a place after we die, if at that point we receive perfected bodies? We wouldn’t be blind or maimed then.

The Gate consisted of curtains hanging on five pillars, representing that initial point of Grace that influences our hearts to be able to recognize Jesus as our Savior and believe in Him, through faith:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. Eph 2:8-10 NIV

At this point spiritually we are in the Outer Court—'in Christ'—the place where any Israelite could enter, and the place where the priests interacted with the Israelites. The priests were the only ones able to enter the Holy Place. Before doing so, they proceeded by first making a blood sacrifice at the Altar, then washing in the Laver, then being anointed with Oil at the Door. Three main things are represented in the Outer Court by this process: blood, water, and oil (symbolic of Spirit).

1 John 5:8 says: '…there are three that bear witness: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.'
Hebrews 6:1,2 tells us that one of the elementary teachings of the faith is that of instruction about baptisms/washings (plural). There is more than one, and three are represented here: We are washed in His blood when we put our faith in Jesus, accepting the atoning sacrifice He made on the cross (Brazen Altar), (Rev 1:5; 7:14).

'In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.' Heb 9:22 NIV

'How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!' Heb 9:14 NIV

We are also washed in water baptism for repentance and recognition of the death and resurrection (Bronze Laver):

'We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.' Rom 5:21 NIV

'…and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also — not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,' 1 Peter 3:21-22 NIV

Upon our conversion, we receive the indwelling presence of the Spirit, when that resurrection Spirit brings our spirits to new life. With the disciples, we see this taking place in John 20:22, where after the resurrection, [I]Jesus 'breathed on them' and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit.' However, Jesus told those very same disciples later on to wait and not do anything in response to the commission He gave them until they had received the promised baptism of the Holy Spirit:

"Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." Acts 1:4-5 NIV

We are also to be baptized with the empowering of the Holy Spirit, represented by the anointing with oil, while putting on the priestly garments (being 'endued' or 'clothed' with the Spirit), before the priest enters the Door to the Holy Place. The Holy Spirit is already in us—in our spirit—but it is here where He completely saturates us in order to make us witnesses—He comes on us and through us so we can touch the world with Him, not us. The combination of these three 'baptisms' is what makes us an entirely different breed. In fact, the word baptizo was found in only one other source in early Greek writings—a cookbook describing how to turn a cucumber into a pickle. The cucumber is baptized (dipped in a solution), causing it to become a completely different food! In the book of Acts we see how important it was to the apostles that new believers would experience all three of these 'washings,' as seen in the following scriptures:

Acts 2:38-39: Peter replied, "Repent (Blood) and be baptized (Water), every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Oil).

Acts 8:14-17: When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God (Blood), they sent Peter and John to them. When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit (Oil), because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus (Water).

Acts 10:43-48: '…All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name (Blood). While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message (Oil). The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues (evidence of Oil) and praising God. Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? (Water) They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 11:13-17: '…He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, 'Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.' (Blood) "As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning (Oil). Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water (Water), but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit (Oil).' So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"

Acts 19:1-7: While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit (Oil) when you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.
Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this (Blood), they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus (Water). When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them (Oil), and they spoke in tongues and prophesied (evidence of Oil).

The apostles understood the necessity of this taking place as soon as possible in a believer’s life. It is these three baptisms, 'agreeing as one' (1 Jn 5:8), that qualify us to be that royal priesthood (1 Pet 2:5,9), because priests are the only ones able to enter the Holy Place. The Holy Place is also representative of being part of the Kingdom (thus the 'royal priesthood,' and 'kingdom of priests' Rev. 1:6;5:10).

John 3:3-7
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' NIV

Think of the 'born again' process in the same way as natural birth. First there is conception (the deposit of the spirit seed which creates new life), which occurs at salvation; but to 'see' and 'enter' the kingdom realm, the Spirit must give birth to the spirit in you. Indeed, most of the epistles were written with the understanding that this had already taken place in the believers’ lives, and cannot be rightly understood unless this is so. Nor can many of Jesus’ words, with the above scripture being one example of this: most Christians equate 'entering the Kingdom' with dying and going to heaven one day, or their initial salvation experience, but that is not what Jesus was saying (nor do I believe it means that you aren’t saved if you don’t make this transition—many current controversies can be cleared up from this simple understanding). 'Entering the kingdom' is coming into the domain of the King—coming under His Lordship—it is represented by both the Holy Place (initial access point to things of the kingdom) and the Most Holy Place (the kingdom realm itself) in this illustration.

John the Baptist testified that one greater than he was coming, who would 'baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire.' When Jesus came to him for baptism, John said, 'No, I need to be baptized by You!' So John really knew his need for this kind of baptism over the one he performed—but at the same time, John never did receive the baptism he desired from Jesus. This is important to understand, because Jesus later said of John: 'I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.' (Matt 11:11). He made it a point to say 'of those born of women' to distinguish between those in the Kingdom because the latter are a different creation than just 'mere men' born of women! The apostle Paul echoes this sentiment when speaking to the Corinthians about being in need of spiritual milk instead of solid food—he says, '…are you not acting like mere men?' (1 Cor 3;1-3). We are no longer 'mere men' after this—we are both supernatural and natural—being part of both the heavens and the earth.

When Jesus told Nicodemus 'no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit,' Nicodemus questioned, 'How can this be?' Jesus went on to say:

"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? John 3:10-13 NIV

Nicodemus was 'Israel’s teacher'—he knew scripture and he taught it! But Jesus was showing him that he understood things only from a natural, earthly perspective and could not yet comprehend the spiritual, heavenly things representative of the Kingdom until he would be born of the Spirit. This is also why Jesus says such things as:

For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:20 NKJV

'Righteousness' in this instance cannot mean 'extreme morality,' as some imply—as if we are to be even more 'moral' than the Pharisees in order to make it into heaven! That thought in itself is from a religious spirit and contrary to the Spirit of Grace, and the reason Jesus told the Pharisees on another occasion that the tax collectors and prostitutes were entering the kingdom before they were (Mt 21:31).

Unfortunately, there are many, many Christians now who have come to know Jesus as the Way, having accepted His atoning sacrifice and having been baptized in water baptism for repentance, but never progressing by receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and entering through the Door. They are perpetually living in this 'Outer Court' state, where they can know and live by 'truths' and 'biblical principles,' but they do not know Jesus as The Truth, by the Spirit of Truth. They are still living predominantly in the flesh, as a 'natural man,' and cannot truly understand the things of the Spirit.

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. 1 Cor 3:1-3 NASU

And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that [is] of God, that we may know the things conferred by God on us, which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing, and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know [them], because spiritually they are discerned…1 Cor 2:12-14 YLT

Continuing to live in this 'Outer Court' realm produces two main types of Christians. The first are genuinely trying to live good lives and apply the Bible’s teachings in order to please the Lord. They have just never been taught that there is a second baptism experience with the Holy Spirit. They would be akin to those in Acts who said, 'We have not even heard that this is available!'

The second group, however, would be more like modern day Pharisees or experts in the Law (e.g. Luke 11:37-54). They can be 'experts' in the Bible, but because they themselves don’t understand the things of the Spirit, and because these things do appear very foolish to them, they teach that this is no longer available and dissuade others whom Jesus is drawing to enter that 'Door.'

"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering." Luke 11:52

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.' Matt 23:13

'But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.' Jude 17-19

The early church didn’t have the divisions we see so prevalent today. I believe this is because most of the early church was living in that Holy Place/Kingdom realm and receiving apostolic (revelatory) teaching about the Kingdom, as Jesus also taught. Today our 'Outer Courts' are still full of 'Pharisees' and 'Hypocrites' bringing all kinds of leaven to the true gospel message. They are eating from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil instead of the Tree of Life: trying in their own ability to do the 'right and good things,' and shun and expose the 'evil' things, and teaching new converts that this is what they are to do as well. They still say all the right 'christiany' words, like, 'It’s not about religion, it’s about relationship,' not even realizing that is exactly what they have: religion without relationship. They are trying to follow the Lord through their flesh, or by their minds only—and haven’t been to their own 'Golgotha' (meaning skull)—the place where Jesus was crucified, and signifying the biggest area we also need crucified: our carnal-thinking minds. We need to put to death all false beliefs—about our Lord, ourselves, and others—and be renewed in Spirit and Truth. This doesn’t mean we stop using our intellect altogether, it means we stop using intellect without the Spirit of Truth. The Lord seeks those who will 'worship in Spirit and in Truth,' because He is Spirit (Jn 4:23,24). And this is represented by 'The Holy Place.'


....Deb

[Lotus Feet]

Being born again is nothing to do with baptism or belief.

Jesus touched on being born again when he spoke to Nicodemus. He told Nicodemus that the Spirit is like the wind, you don't know where it has come from or where it is going. As such, until a person has experienced being born again a Son of God they do not understand his meaning of being born again of the Spirit.

The bible tells you that Jesus came to bring back what had been lost, and if we cross reference his words with the Dead Sea Scrolls it also speaks of the Sons of God.
:)

[Bob May]

Hey Rick,

I do hear what you're saying. Maybe I should clarify a bit more...and I will continue using the Tabernacle layout as reference:

The Tabernacle was also the basic layout for the Temple, and the symbolism is represented in both. In the Temple, the Gate was known as 'The Way,' the Door was known as 'The Truth,' and the Veil as 'The Life.' Jesus said 'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through me' (Jn 14.6). Imagine progressing through this Tabernacle: Knowing Him as 'the Way' is the very first step toward our salvation—He has made the way to the Father, and we enter through the Gate when grace (5 pillars) is given to recognize Him as the Way.

'Go ye in through the strait gate, because wide [is] the gate, and broad the way that is leading to the destruction, and many are those going in through it; how strait [is] the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it! Matt 7:13-14 YLT

We enter through The Gate and then are on the compressed, or narrow, 'Way' (knowing Him as The Way) that is leading to The Life, and few are those finding it—in other words, few are those who find The Life, not The Way!

This particular verse is not saying that few will have eternal life, or few will be saved (as is traditionally interpreted)…it is saying few are those who will press on to know Him as The Life and inherit that Life while on earth. For centuries Christians have been interpreting most of Jesus’ teachings as referring to the salvation experience only—but there is so much more to it. He taught about the Kingdom. Consider also that Jesus said if our eye, hand, or foot causes us to stumble, we should cut them off, for it is better to 'enter into the life' blind or maimed than to be cast to the fire (Mt 18:8,9). How could this refer to only a place after we die, if at that point we receive perfected bodies? We wouldn’t be blind or maimed then.

The Gate consisted of curtains hanging on five pillars, representing that initial point of Grace that influences our hearts to be able to recognize Jesus as our Savior and believe in Him, through faith:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. Eph 2:8-10 NIV

Hi Deb,

It gets complicated fast doesn't it??
I'm glad you clarified your understanding. I am not going to go point by point on your very good post. I am in agreement with 99% of it. I may just see the details of the three baptisms and three witnesses a little differently than you.
I hope you don't mind me using your Tabernacle blueprint here. It is a good visual help for us visually oriented thinkers.

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/Tabernacle.jpg

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

So we "enter" into the Gate of five pillars (Grace) We are "in."

Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Ro 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

So, at this point we have been saved. We are in the outer court but nevertheless we are in.
We have come to a realisation that has shaken our world.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This is the altar just inside the door. Something of us has died. It is the idea that there is anything we could do to make this happen. It is because we believed that we are here. And that belief is counted for righteousness. (That, by the way, is how our righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees. Because it is a gift and not our righteousness at all.) And that faith/belief is a gift.

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:



At this point spiritually we are in the Outer Court—'in Christ'—the place where any Israelite could enter, and the place where the priests interacted with the Israelites. The priests were the only ones able to enter the Holy Place. Before doing so, they proceeded by first making a blood sacrifice at the Altar, then washing in the Laver, then being anointed with Oil at the Door. Three main things are represented in the Outer Court by this process: blood, water, and oil (symbolic of Spirit).


Here is where it all goes wrong in most of the modern chuches. You get touched by the Spirit and you have entered the Tabernacle. You get an awareness of what Grace and Faith are.
Then come the "experts" to tell you what you have to do now that you have recieved something directly from God.

Re 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Re 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

If we listen to those that tell us what we must now do in order to be Christians and believe it, we fall from Grace. We go no further or enter the Door to the Holy place.
I'm not saying that it is a permanent fall. But it is a hurdle to get through and can stop us in our tracks for a time.
Because we have taken our mind off of the true Tabernacle and entered the "Camp",.. whatever "camp" that might be.

My original question may be flawed. "What is the deeper mystery" not because there is no difference between seeing and entering, but because, even though Grace is the gate we enter through, it is a foundation principle and more probably The Foundation Principle and runs through our entire walk as believers in Christ Jesus. We enter the Gate and see that it is not by our works, but by faith. We enter the Holy place and see what God has there for us to see. Same again with the Holiest of all. And Grace runs through it all.
It is all a Gift from the outer Gate to the Holy place to the Holiest of all.

When we find ourselves being talked out of our right as priests to enter and see the Holy place, it is time to go "outside the camp" in order to continue on into that Holy Place.

Heb 13:11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Heb 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

I'm not goint to go any further right now.
Great post, Deb.
I'm still letting a lot of these things incubate.

Bob

[Charisma]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for a great question. Later, I hope to contrinbute what the Lord brought to mind when I began to consider it.

For now, I have a question for you Debz,

I'm wondering what is the history - academic source - of the statement you made at the beginning of your recent post:

The Tabernacle was also the basic layout for the Temple, and the symbolism is represented in both. In the Temple, the Gate was known as 'The Way,' the Door was known as 'The Truth,' and the Veil as 'The Life.' Please answer with respect to the bold sentence.

Many thanks.

[heb13-13]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for a great question. Later, I hope to contrinbute what the Lord brought to mind when I began to consider it.

For now, I have a question for you Debz,

I'm wondering what is the history - academic source - of the statement you made at the beginning of your recent post:
Please answer with respect to the bold sentence.

Many thanks.

Good question Charisma. I wondered the same.

I think it should also be brought out that "seeing" the Lord is not synonymous with "receiving" Him.

Rick

[Bob May]

Being born again is nothing to do with baptism or belief.

Jesus touched on being born again when he spoke to Nicodemus. He told Nicodemus that the Spirit is like the wind, you don't know where it has come from or where it is going. As such, until a person has experienced being born again a Son of God they do not understand his meaning of being born again of the Spirit.

The bible tells you that Jesus came to bring back what had been lost, and if we cross reference his words with the Dead Sea Scrolls it also speaks of the Sons of God.
:)

Hi Lotus,
Welcome to the discussion.

What you wrote may be true... There is an element of "air" or "breath" being symbolic of Spirit.
But Jesus told Nicodemus here that it was people who were like the wind.

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

In other words someone can hear the sound (words) of those born of the Spirit or from above, but not know "where they're coming from."

Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jesus, by saying "so is everyone that is born of the Spirit", is including us in that lack of communication that results from having gone through the experience. It is a promise. We are no longer of this earth, though we may act like it. And a big reason we act like it is because those who should be teaching us about this new life are not doing so. As Deb did such a good job pointing out.

One of the reasons that they are not teaching it is because if someone is beginning to learn by Spirit, (Entered the Holy Place) they are no longer under their control.
Another reason is that many teachers are teaching what they never knew. Blind leading the blind.

A very wise man once told me that a Pastor or teacher's job is to get people to the point where they are learning from Jesus. Again, the Holy Place. After that they are on their own. The teacher's job is done.
That does not mean we cannot learn from each other. But it would get rid of the heirarchy mentality that tries to stuff another mediator between the body of Christ and Jesus himself.

Now I'm ranting. I'll stop.

Bob

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Lotus,
Welcome to the discussion.

What you wrote may be true... There is an element of "air" or "breath" being symbolic of Spirit.
But Jesus told Nicodemus here that it was people who were like the wind.

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

In other words someone can hear the sound (words) of those born of the Spirit or from above, but not know "where they're coming from."

Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jesus, by saying "so is everyone that is born of the Spirit", is including us in that lack of communication that results from having gone through the experience. It is a promise. We are no longer of this earth, though we may act like it. And a big reason we act like it is because those who should be teaching us about this new life are not doing so. As Deb did such a good job pointing out.
I don't understand your interpretation. It seems that you are saying that everyone, whether born of the spirit or not, only "hear" the spirit. But Jesus seems to be saying exactly the opposite. He's saying that people born of the spirit are like the Spirit because they are led by the Spirit and move like the wind.



A very wise man once told me that a Pastor or teacher's job is to get people to the point where they are learning from Jesus. Again, the Holy Place. After that they are on their own. The teacher's job is done.

How do people know if they are "learning from Jesus" or "learning from their own spirit" or "learning from Buddha" or whatever? Is not "learning from Jesus" just a metaphor for our own spiritual intuition?


That does not mean we cannot learn from each other. But it would get rid of the heirarchy mentality that tries to stuff another mediator between the body of Christ and Jesus himself.

Now I'm ranting. I'll stop.

Bob
That really wasn't much of a "rant" my friend! It looks like you need to drink more vinegar and eat more jalapenos if you really want to rant. :lmbo:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Bob, Richard, and all…

I love this topic—good question! Of course, I have my own opinion ;-)

First, as Richard pointed out, it depends on our definition of kingdom. If we believe, as most Christians seem to, that 'entering the kingdom' is synonymous with 'going to heaven after we die, because we are saved,' then the question will obviously have different interpretations. Then we will apply many verses (such as necessity of baptism) in order to 'go to heaven after we die,' etc.

However, if we see the kingdom as a realm—both available now and in an afterlife—as I believe Jesus taught, then the question takes on new meaning. Jesus’ whole message was 'change your way of thinking, because the kingdom of heaven is available now ('at hand').'

Woohoo!

:woohoo:

We agree on this point. The "kingdom" is a metaphor for spiritual sight. When your eye is opened to the unity of all, the entire universe is transformed into the "kingdom of God."

This is why it seems silly to divide between "seeing" and "entering" the kingdom. They are one and the same. The moment you are enlightened to "see" the kingdom and realize that you are now and always have been "in" the kingdom. You can't "enter" a place you already are.



Bob, it goes back to the 'Tabernacle Blueprint' thing: Outer Court = Jesus as ‘The Way’; Holy Place = Jesus as ‘The Truth’; Most Holy Place = Jesus as ‘The Life’ When someone accepts Jesus as ‘The Way,’ by believing in Him they are saved and they metaphorically enter the Outer Court realm—in that realm are the options of proceeding as the priests did: going to the altar (taking up cross/laying down own life), then proceeding to the laver (water baptism), THEN, in order to 'ENTER' the door to the Holy Place, they had to be anointed with oil, representative of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I could see that as a pattern of growth in cosmic awareness, I guess. But I would interpret "water baptism" as a symbol of spirit baptism which is just a way of describing enlightenment.



I believe the Most Holy Place realm is representative of the Kingdom itself. In order to 'see' that realm, you have to first enter the Holy Place—being 'born of water and spirit'—then you have 'eyes to see what the Spirit is saying' – when you can 'SEE' what is available in the next realm, you could potentially ENTER that realm – that is the ultimate goal – getting into that 'Most Holy Place'/Kingdom realm – while we are still on earth! I believe that was Paul’s entire message—to mature until we reach that mature man 'fullness,' (Eph), attain that place of glory, etc., etc. That is where we SEE Him face-to-face and reach 'perfection'…until then, we 'see in part and know in part' –

That seems like imposing a huge metaphysical construct upon reality. It's much simpler than that. When a person awakes, they see and realize that we are already "in" the kingdom. There is no way a person can't be in the kingdom. We might fail to "see" but we can't fail to "be" and all "being" is in the kingdom of God, who is the Ground of Being.

Great chatting,

Richard

[Bob May]

I don't understand your interpretation. It seems that you are saying that everyone, whether born of the spirit or not, only "hear" the spirit. But Jesus seems to be saying exactly the opposite. He's saying that people born of the spirit are like the Spirit because they are led by the Spirit and move like the wind.


Hi Richard,

Lotus said, "...He told Nicodemus that the Spirit is like the wind,..."

I said, "..But Jesus told Nicodemus here that it was people who were like the wind."

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

She was saying Jesus was comparing Spirit to wind. I am pointing out that he is comparing people (specifically those born of Spirit) to wind. His comparison is people to wind, not Spirit to wind.

You said, "He's saying that people born of the spirit are like the Spirit because they are led by the Spirit and move like the wind."

My point is that to a person not born of the Spirit,.. a person who is born of the Spirit is like the wind in the repect that the person not born of the Spirit cannot understand where either the wind or the person born of the Spirit are "coming from."

There are two different perspectives. We can see shadows of this principle all through life and make comparisons carnal to carnal, so to speak.

For example, my two oldest sons are in their twenties and are finding out what it is like to work for a living.
They had no idea how hard it was until they experienced it. They are both good workers and I am not saying they complain or anything like that. But their perspective has changed. They have actually experienced it now. Now we can have a conversation about work and actually communicate.

The same is true for those who are born of the Spirit. They were already born of the flesh, so they know what that is like. When they are born of the Spirit their perpective begins to change in many ways.




How do people know if they are "learning from Jesus" or "learning from their own spirit" or "learning from Buddha" or whatever?


I can learn from books and the bible and Buddhism and from other people. I can even learn Truth in all of those ways. But there is a life attached to learning from the Holy Spirit. This is called the Voice in Scripture.
It's something you come to recognize.
Jesus said,
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:



Is not "learning from Jesus" just a metaphor for our own spiritual intuition?


No, it's not a metaphor. And it's not just spiritual intuition, but Spiritual inspiration. It comes through our spirit but the source is Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit speaks of Jesus and our relationship with him.



That really wasn't much of a "rant" my friend! It looks like you need to drink more vinegar and eat more jalapenos if you really want to rant. :lmbo:

You're right, it wasn't much of a rant. And I ran out of jalapenos two days ago.
It's been a long week.

All the best Richard,
Bob

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,

Lotus said, "...He told Nicodemus that the Spirit is like the wind,..."

I said, "..But Jesus told Nicodemus here that it was people who were like the wind."

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

She was saying Jesus was comparing Spirit to wind. I am pointing out that he is comparing people (specifically those born of Spirit) to wind. His comparison is people to wind, not Spirit to wind.

You said, "He's saying that people born of the spirit are like the Spirit because they are led by the Spirit and move like the wind."

My point is that to a person not born of the Spirit,.. a person who is born of the Spirit is like the wind in the repect that the person not born of the Spirit cannot understand where either the wind or the person born of the Spirit are "coming from."

There are two different perspectives. We can see shadows of this principle all through life and make comparisons carnal to carnal, so to speak.

For example, my two oldest sons are in their twenties and are finding out what it is like to work for a living.
They had no idea how hard it was until they experienced it. They are both good workers and I am not saying they complain or anything like that. But their perspective has changed. They have actually experienced it now. Now we can have a conversation about work and actually communicate.

The same is true for those who are born of the Spirit. They were already born of the flesh, so they know what that is like. When they are born of the Spirit their perpective begins to change in many ways.

OK - that's a little more clear. But I still think that Jesus was comparing the spirit to wind - exactly the same word pneuma is used for both in that one verse:

John 3:8 The wind [pneuma] bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit [pneuma].



I can learn from books and the bible and Buddhism and from other people. I can even learn Truth in all of those ways. But there is a life attached to learning from the Holy Spirit. This is called the Voice in Scripture.
It's something you come to recognize.
Jesus said,
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

That's fine - but it doesn't seem to have any real meaning because different people "hear" Jesus saying very different things that are often contradictory.



No, it's not a metaphor. And it's not just spiritual intuition, but Spiritual inspiration. It comes through our spirit but the source is Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit speaks of Jesus and our relationship with him.

Again, all those words "Holy Spirit" and "Jesus" are religious terms learned from a book. You are now applying them to describe your spiritual intuitions. Folks of different religions have the same experiences but use different words derived from their traditions to describe them. Allah, Buddha, Cosmic Consciousness, Daime ... whatever. Personally, I see nothing to suggest that the terms from one tradition are more "real" than any other. They are are metaphors that people apply to their own spiritual experiences.

Great chatting,

Richard

[Bob May]

OK - that's a little more clear. But I still think that Jesus was comparing the spirit to wind - exactly the same word pneuma is used for both in that one verse:

John 3:8 The wind [pneuma] bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit [pneuma].


He is comparing all three. Spirit, wind and those born of the Spirit. Many people seem to miss that comparison to the third thing,.. those born of the Spirit. That was my only point.



That's fine - but it doesn't seem to have any real meaning because different people "hear" Jesus saying very different things that are often contradictory.


Then someones wrong, simple as that.




Again, all those words "Holy Spirit" and "Jesus" are religious terms learned from a book. You are now applying them to describe your spiritual intuitions. Folks of different religions have the same experiences but use different words derived from their traditions to describe them. Allah, Buddha, Cosmic Consciousness, Daime ... whatever. Personally, I see nothing to suggest that the terms from one tradition are more "real" than any other. They are are metaphors that people apply to their own spiritual experiences.


That's ok. I am of the opinion that Jesus took it further than any of the other religions. That is why I am a Christian.
It is kind of like you said in the Dumbo thread. "In a qabalistic universe, nothing is wasted."

I look at the Bible in the same way. I see something like "seeing" and "entering" and it bugs me until I resolve it in my own mind.
I have found that if something like that "bugs" me long enough it is for a reason. It keeps my mind on the subject and the answer will just drop on me when I least expect it from some direction I least expected it to come from.
That is how I think. Which is not thinking at all. :lol:
It is walking meditation.
I'm not smart enough to come up with stuff on my own. So I quit trying.

You have a great night Richard,
I'm off to the grocery to get some jalapenos and coffee.
Bob

[Richard Amiel McGough]

He is comparing all three. Spirit, wind and those born of the Spirit. Many people seem to miss that comparison to the third thing,.. those born of the Spirit. That was my only point.

Ah ... good. Now we understand each other. I love it when we finally are able to articulate our mutual understanding.



Then someones wrong, simple as that.

It's more than some "one" - even if I believed that some people are hearing from Christ, I would have to conclude that most are getting garbled communications.



That's ok. I am of the opinion that Jesus took it further than any of the other religions. That is why I am a Christian.
It is kind of like you said in the Dumbo thread. "In a qabalistic universe, nothing is wasted."

I look at the Bible in the same way. I see something like "seeing" and "entering" and it bugs me until I resolve it in my own mind.
I have found that if something like that "bugs" me long enough it is for a reason. It keeps my mind on the subject and the answer will just drop on me when I least expect it from some direction I least expected it to come from.
That is how I think. Which is not thinking at all. :lol:
It is walking meditation.
I'm not smart enough to come up with stuff on my own. So I quit trying.

You have a great night Richard,
I'm off to the grocery to get some jalapenos and coffee.
Bob
I like that approach. Running my mind over the text like my hand on velvet, until something just doesn't quite make sense and then ponder that.

Non-thinking thinking is the way to go! And the way to God.

All the best,

Richard

PS: Enjoy those jalapenos! yum!

[debz]

Hey Bob....whew! Been away from computer all day, and now I have my work cut out for me in responding to my posts from yesterday! :lol:


Hi Deb,

It gets complicated fast doesn't it??
I'm glad you clarified your understanding. I am not going to go point by point on your very good post. I am in agreement with 99% of it. I may just see the details of the three baptisms and three witnesses a little differently than you.
I hope you don't mind me using your Tabernacle blueprint here. It is a good visual help for us visually oriented thinkers.

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/Tabernacle.jpg

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

So we "enter" into the Gate of five pillars (Grace) We are "in."

Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Ro 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

So, at this point we have been saved. We are in the outer court but nevertheless we are in.
We have come to a realisation that has shaken our world.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This is the altar just inside the door. Something of us has died. It is the idea that there is anything we could do to make this happen. It is because we believed that we are here. And that belief is counted for righteousness. (That, by the way, is how our righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees. Because it is a gift and not our righteousness at all.) And that faith/belief is a gift.

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Yes...we are tracking! The grace to simply believe...and we are "in" as you say. :)



Here is where it all goes wrong in most of the modern chuches. You get touched by the Spirit and you have entered the Tabernacle. You get an awareness of what Grace and Faith are.
Then come the "experts" to tell you what you have to do now that you have recieved something directly from God.

Re 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Re 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

If we listen to those that tell us what we must now do in order to be Christians and believe it, we fall from Grace. We go no further or enter the Door to the Holy place.
I'm not saying that it is a permanent fall. But it is a hurdle to get through and can stop us in our tracks for a time.
Because we have taken our mind off of the true Tabernacle and entered the "Camp",.. whatever "camp" that might be.

Big fat "YES" to that! So many in the church approach this the wrong way. As you said, "telling us what we now have to do to be a Christian..." It turns the grace and the message of the NEW Covenant into something it was never meant to be. I think the reason this happens is because they don't know the big "WHY?" "Why are we told certain things?" .... I will get to that later, but it really is important, and it has really been twisted around so that Christianity has become just another religion with rules to follow... we have lost sight of the "WHY?"


My original question may be flawed. "What is the deeper mystery" not because there is no difference between seeing and entering, but because, even though Grace is the gate we enter through, it is a foundation principle and more probably The Foundation Principle and runs through our entire walk as believers in Christ Jesus. We enter the Gate and see that it is not by our works, but by faith. We enter the Holy place and see what God has there for us to see. Same again with the Holiest of all. And Grace runs through it all.
It is all a Gift from the outer Gate to the Holy place to the Holiest of all.

Yes...I believe grace is what takes us "from glory to glory" ... it works on our hearts/interiors every step of the way...from the initial passing through the gate, and eventually (if others don't stop us, because they themselves have "fallen from grace") through the next phases...Door/Holy Place...Most Holy Place... IMO, I do still think there is a difference being the seeing and entering...we can "see" (have revealed to us) what we are being called to "enter" or partake in long before we actually enter...but that is what gives us the "vision" to pursue. Paul said to the Ephesians: "I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened (be able to "see" that...), so that you will know the hope of His calling...the glorious inheritance..." ...knowing what it is that He has actually called us to is the first step. There are many, many verses about what we are "hoping" for...but I will use one you quoted here:

Ro 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Our "hope" is in attaining the "glory of God" (and NOT in the "sweet by and by" ....)


When we find ourselves being talked out of our right as priests to enter and see the Holy place, it is time to go "outside the camp" in order to continue on into that Holy Place.

Heb 13:11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Heb 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.


Yes...why so many have left "institutional churches" in the past years...Holy Spirit is compelling all to "move on," but churches stuck in traditions, etc., don't recognize that Jesus has often left their midst already...and His sheep have moved with Him...and we have often borne that same reproach because of that, right? :)


:yo: Great conversation!

[Lotus Feet]

Hi Lotus,
Welcome to the discussion.

What you wrote may be true... There is an element of "air" or "breath" being symbolic of Spirit.
But Jesus told Nicodemus here that it was people who were like the wind.

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

In other words someone can hear the sound (words) of those born of the Spirit or from above, but not know "where they're coming from."

Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jesus, by saying "so is everyone that is born of the Spirit", is including us in that lack of communication that results from having gone through the experience. It is a promise. We are no longer of this earth, though we may act like it. And a big reason we act like it is because those who should be teaching us about this new life are not doing so. As Deb did such a good job pointing out.

One of the reasons that they are not teaching it is because if someone is beginning to learn by Spirit, (Entered the Holy Place) they are no longer under their control.
Another reason is that many teachers are teaching what they never knew. Blind leading the blind.

A very wise man once told me that a Pastor or teacher's job is to get people to the point where they are learning from Jesus. Again, the Holy Place. After that they are on their own. The teacher's job is done.
That does not mean we cannot learn from each other. But it would get rid of the heirarchy mentality that tries to stuff another mediator between the body of Christ and Jesus himself.

Now I'm ranting. I'll stop.

Bob

Yes, Bob you have made excellent points.

Seeking within was a major aspect of the work of Jesus with those that were close to him. His true followers were healers and he sent them out two by two to give healing to others. He also told them to look for someone that was worthy them to cover all of their essentials.

Now going back to seeking the Kingdom of God within. As we know he told them that they had to become like little children to enter the Kingdom of heaven. As such what he was really telling them was that they had to heal their childhoods. Jesus knew that what children experienced growing up impacted on their consciousness and their health. Good health and happiness was a major part of his work.

In my experience if people can integrate what I call the 'milk' of his teachings then they are on their way, and they can walk in 'aloneness' with him. Just holding hands with another if and when he brings an Angel of healing into help out if people get stuck in a groove. Also in healing the self people then learn to help others appropriately, in the way he likes them to do.

Integration is the key word here, because until people truly integrate ABC they cannot go anywhere on the way home to the LORD, his heavenly Father.

I really do feel there are going to be new communities of people coming together like they did in ancient times. People will mentor each other and help out when required. People are doing it on the internet, the next phase is for this to start happening in the community itself. There will be no places of worship, as we know he stood against them.

This is a wonderful forum and I am very pleased to meet you all.
:)

[Bob May]

Hey Bob

Yes...I believe grace is what takes us "from glory to glory" ... it works on our hearts/interiors every step of the way...from the initial passing through the gate, and eventually (if others don't stop us, because they themselves have "fallen from grace") through the next phases...Door/Holy Place...Most Holy Place... IMO, I do still think there is a difference being the seeing and entering...we can "see" (have revealed to us) what we are being called to "enter" or partake in long before we actually enter...but that is what gives us the "vision" to pursue. Paul said to the Ephesians: "I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened (be able to "see" that...), so that you will know the hope of His calling...the glorious inheritance..." ...knowing what it is that He has actually called us to is the first step. There are many, many verses about what we are "hoping" for...but I will use one you quoted here:

Ro 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Our "hope" is in attaining the "glory of God" (and NOT in the "sweet by and by" ....)
:yo: Great conversation!

Hi Deb and Richard and all,

Ok, I'm going to throw you a curve now.
What you describe above is seeing something before entering as you understand and describe it.
I have experienced this in the sense that I once had a very deep experience in medtation that I've never been able to approach to again. But it is always there like a carrot on a stick.
In regards to this experience my teacher told me years ago, "Sometimes we have an experience way beyond our abilities." This I believe to be true.

Now, conversely, take Richards response to your last post.

Richard said, "We agree on this point. The "kingdom" is a metaphor for spiritual sight. When your eye is opened to the unity of all, the entire universe is transformed into the "kingdom of God."
This is why it seems silly to divide between "seeing" and "entering" the kingdom. They are one and the same. The moment you are enlightened to "see" the kingdom and realize that you are now and always have been "in" the kingdom. You can't "enter" a place you already are."

Even though Richard is still saying there is no difference between seeing and entering, he just said that sometimes we are "in" something or entered, yet we are not able to see it yet.
I'm not saying this to say I am right and Richard is wrong.
I am pointing to what Richard said above is also true.
We are "in" something before we realize (or see) it. So we may not be able to enter a place where we already are but we can see a place where we already are but were unaware of being there.

My teacher once said that we cannot understand a level of Reality until we reach the level above it.
Another way of looking at it is 20/20 Spiritual hindsight. I coined this phrase to describe how I first have an experience before I recognise it in Scripture. The Bible is a roadmap that you cannot understand until you have an experience. Only then do you recognize that it is describing the experience.

So my question is invalid. There is no deeper mystery. Not even a set order to seeing and entering.
In one instance we see before we enter. In another we enter before we see.

If we see something we have not yet reached or understood, then entering appears to be the deeper mystery.
If we have entered the Kingdom of Heaven as the bible says we have, and yet see nothing because our spiritual eyes are not yet opened, we look at seeing as the deeper mystery.

You can't put the Spirit inside a box.

Now I'm really confused.

Bob

[debz]

Hi Deb and Richard and all,

Ok, I'm going to throw you a curve now.
What you describe above is seeing something before entering as you understand and describe it.
I have experienced this in the sense that I once had a very deep experience in medtation that I've never been able to approach to again. But it is always there like a carrot on a stick.
In regards to this experience my teacher told me years ago, "Sometimes we have an experience way beyond our abilities." This I believe to be true.

Now, conversely, take Richards response to your last post.

Richard said, "We agree on this point. The "kingdom" is a metaphor for spiritual sight. When your eye is opened to the unity of all, the entire universe is transformed into the "kingdom of God."
This is why it seems silly to divide between "seeing" and "entering" the kingdom. They are one and the same. The moment you are enlightened to "see" the kingdom and realize that you are now and always have been "in" the kingdom. You can't "enter" a place you already are."

Even though Richard is still saying there is no difference between seeing and entering, he just said that sometimes we are "in" something or entered, yet we are not able to see it yet.
I'm not saying this to say I am right and Richard is wrong.
I am pointing to what Richard said above is also true.
We are "in" something before we realize (or see) it. So we may not be able to enter a place where we already are but we can see a place where we already are but were unaware of being there.

My teacher once said that we cannot understand a level of Reality until we reach the level above it.
Another way of looking at it is 20/20 Spiritual hindsight. I coined this phrase to describe how I first have an experience before I recognise it in Scripture. The Bible is a roadmap that you cannot understand until you have an experience. Only then do you recognize that it is describing the experience.

So my question is invalid. There is no deeper mystery. Not even a set order to seeing and entering.
In one instance we see before we enter. In another we enter before we see.

If we see something we have not yet reached or understood, then entering appears to be the deeper mystery.
If we have entered the Kingdom of Heaven as the bible says we have, and yet see nothing because our spiritual eyes are not yet opened, we look at seeing as the deeper mystery.

You can't put the Spirit inside a box.

Now I'm really confused.

Bob

This is good, Bob. And actually it is not all that confusing, and does make sense. You're right that we can actually experience things (enter) without first seeing them....so in that sense there is no set order. For consistency, I'm going to stick with my other analogies--let's go with the Seed--when we first believe/receive the Seed as deposit (enter the Gate), everything we need and will become/grow into is within the Seed -- all of Christ -- all the Outer Court, Holy Place, Most Holy -- all contained within that Seed, and all within us (we have entered into all as well). However, the ability to "see" what all that will unfold/grow into/develop/mature over time is not yet revealed to us -- that happens as the veils are lifted and as we grow up into all that is available. The ultimate goal is to manifest Christ through our lives at all times--completely abiding in Him, and His Word in and through us--and if we are still growing up into that, we can experience times of manifesting His Presence, or enlightenment, or healing power flowing to others--in other words, we can "enter" into that experience of the ultimate place of perfection/Mature Sonship sometimes before we are actually fully living in it. Sometimes, as you said, we may experience something of this realm, and then not have the understanding of it until later (seeing). But as a whole, I believe that it relates to vision--do we have the vision (are we "seeing") what the hope of glory really is--what the "riches of His glorious inheritance" for us is really all about? That requires "seeing," as Paul prayed for the Ephesians:

Eph 1:15-19

15 For this cause I also, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which is among you, and the love which (ye show) toward all the saints,

16 cease not to give thanks for you, making mention (of you) in my prayers;

17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him;

18 having the eyes of your heart enlightened, that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 and what the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe
ASV


Deb

[heb13-13]

KJV Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

How does the son of man "come" "in" his kingdom?


Hey Richard,

He is born into people in this physical life. His Kingdom is not visible in that it is an organization on earth. His Kingdom is a living organism, His people. So, His Kingdom is spiritual (not of this world, yet dwelling in the hearts of men). It is represented by those living and those that have gone home to behold Him face to face.

Rick

[heb13-13]

Hi Rick, That is true. But it was not my question. Which is the deeper mystery?,... Entering or Seeing? If you think that the question is invalid, then that is OK, That's your answer. It is not a trick question. Bob


Hi Bob,

I think one must "see" to "enter". The greatest miracle there is, is when one is translated from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of the Son. Both kingdoms are spiritual but manifest phyiscally as well as spiritually in this world.

How can one enter without seeing? When one enters the kingdom they have become a child of God and receive the Holy Spirit. They must see something because they have to reach out to God by faith to receive the kingdom (Jesus). We reach out to receive because we see something. Thus we are able to enter.

Rick

[heb13-13]

You are very suspicious Richard. You could just as well said that I was implying that some would only enter iit while others would see it. I am looking for opinions. It is not incumbent on me to come up with two or three verses. I really am looking for others opinions on something I haven't yet gotten straight iin my mind. The analogy is that the guy «entered» the ship before he «saw» the food. The prerequisite covered both things. . So we can enter the kingdom without seeing it which I think applies to most Christians. Having had some visions though I can appreciate the profound effect that they can have on an individual. Nevertheless I have come to believe that what we learn from Spiritual experiences is much more important than what we see. Thomas saw and then believed (entered). Moses saw but didn't enter. And Thomas was told that there werre some, (blessed) which would enter (believe) without seeing. I'm not trying to prove anythng. Just trying too understand it. Bob

Ok, I am getting a better idea of what you are saying.

The Bible talks about leaving your "first love". The first love being what you initially saw which was Jesus and who you initially entered, which was also Jesus. Yes, Jesus is the Kingdom of God. When you enter the Kingdom you enter eternal life and eternal life is in the Son. He is eternal life. You enter Jesus and He enters you. You in Him and He in you. That is being born-again.

People can see and yet not enter yet, but I don't think in this context you can enter without seeing.

Does that make sense?

For sure, we don't know much (see much) when we are first born-again, but we did "see" what was important to enter.

Rick

[heb13-13]

Hi Bob, Richard, and all…

I love this topic—good question! Of course, I have my own opinion ;-)

First, as Richard pointed out, it depends on our definition of kingdom. If we believe, as most Christians seem to, that 'entering the kingdom' is synonymous with 'going to heaven after we die, because we are saved,' then the question will obviously have different interpretations. Then we will apply many verses (such as necessity of baptism) in order to 'go to heaven after we die,' etc.

However, if we see the kingdom as a realm—both available now and in an afterlife—as I believe Jesus taught, then the question takes on new meaning. Jesus’ whole message was 'change your way of thinking, because the kingdom of heaven is available now ('at hand').'

Bob, it goes back to the 'Tabernacle Blueprint' thing: Outer Court = Jesus as ‘The Way’; Holy Place = Jesus as ‘The Truth’; Most Holy Place = Jesus as ‘The Life’ When someone accepts Jesus as ‘The Way,’ by believing in Him they are saved and they metaphorically enter the Outer Court realm—in that realm are the options of proceeding as the priests did: going to the altar (taking up cross/laying down own life), then proceeding to the laver (water baptism), THEN, in order to 'ENTER' the door to the Holy Place, they had to be anointed with oil, representative of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I believe the Most Holy Place realm is representative of the Kingdom itself. In order to 'see' that realm, you have to first enter the Holy Place—being 'born of water and spirit'—then you have 'eyes to see what the Spirit is saying' – when you can 'SEE' what is available in the next realm, you could potentially ENTER that realm – that is the ultimate goal – getting into that 'Most Holy Place'/Kingdom realm – while we are still on earth! I believe that was Paul’s entire message—to mature until we reach that mature man 'fullness,' (Eph), attain that place of glory, etc., etc. That is where we SEE Him face-to-face and reach 'perfection'…until then, we 'see in part and know in part' –

So, IMO, entering is the greater mystery. And it is also seen in the typology that David M pointed out: entering the Promised Land…not all entered that rest, but it is available to all, and it is the ultimate goal.

Deb

Edit: adding a link to the "Tabernacle Blueprint" doc I attached on a previous thread, because it covers this very topic in more depth:

285

Forgive me everyone. I am catching up on this thread sequentially.

Hi debz,

Christians are in Christ therefore they are in the Kingdom now and they are enjoying heaven now. Someday they will enjoy it fuller and unhindered. But they are seeing in part now and experiencing in part now. "The Kingdom of God is not meat, nor drink but righteousness, peace and joy (now)" Romans 14:17.

We do not metaphorically enter anything. The Kingdom and Christ and eternal life are realities that one enters when he sees. Christ in you is the Kingdom in you is eternal life in you. Eternal life is in the Son.

All the best,
Rick

[heb13-13]

Being born again is nothing to do with baptism or belief.

Jesus touched on being born again when he spoke to Nicodemus. He told Nicodemus that the Spirit is like the wind, you don't know where it has come from or where it is going. As such, until a person has experienced being born again a Son of God they do not understand his meaning of being born again of the Spirit.

The bible tells you that Jesus came to bring back what had been lost, and if we cross reference his words with the Dead Sea Scrolls it also speaks of the Sons of God.
:)

Don't you think that the Spirit like the wind means that there is not a certain place where you find it. Like man-made temple or church. And at the same time it is everywhere. The Spirit of God cannot be controlled or bottled and goes where He will, unhindered. No place is off limits to Him. He saves people on skid row, bars, and churches. All three have a lot in common...lost people. It does not mean that He violates one's free choice. He does not force people to love Him (that would be ridiculous). He may cause them to see, but He won't make them act (violating their will). Otherwise, why all this drama on earth and all the pain and suffering? If He is going to violate one's will, He should have just made more angels to serve Him and not even messed with man. What do you mean by the Sons of God? Who are they? Are they redeemed men or angels and Satan, too?

Also, the Spirit will draw a man to Jesus continually after they are saved. Religion will draw a man away from Jesus unto themselves.

Thanks,
Rick

[David M]

Bob

Your posts and subject 'Deeper Mystery' has been a good read and has lead us on to consider the Tabernacle.

I just want to add a few short thoughts.

We know that the Most Holy Place in the Tabernacle could only be entered into once a year by the High Priest (a man).
It is interesting to note that at the time Jesus was at the point of death and at the point of defeating sinful flesh (the devil), the curtain in the temple was torn.

What did this signify? For one, the tearing was done by God because it was from top to bottom. The tearing downwards could not have been done by man. The coming of Jesus is consistent with "coming down" from God; God caused it to happen. Jesus was born of God through the natural birth of a child. It was the Holy Spririt (God's power) which "came down" to Mary and made her to conceive. It was God who provided His Son, without God's provision it was impossible for a man to enter the Most Holy Place permanently. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kindom as taught by the Apostle Paul. While Jesus was in the flesh, he was alienated from being in the presence of God in Heaven.

The tearing of the veil signified that the division had been taken away. While Jesus was of flesh and blood, he could not enter into God’s presence. Hence another reason I say that Jesus was not God. After his transformation, the perfected nature of Jesus enabled him to be with God. This can be our hope too, because we are promised to have the same incorruptible nature after resurrection and acceptance into the Kingdom.


Jesus is now elevated to the position of Great High Priest acting as our Mediator between man and God and Jesus permanently resides in the Most Holy Place in the presence of God.

Until Jesus comes back and sets up the Kingdom on earth and Jesus has reigned for a 1000 years finally has subduing all enemies including sin and death, Jesus remains the Great High Priest. After all the work has been done, Jesus hands over the Kingdom so that God is over all. At that time, the work of the Great High Priest is finished.

I foresee the time coming when all those living in the Kingdom on earth will have the same incorruptible body as Jesus. After Jesus has handed over the Kingdom to God, God will once again come and dwell with men as He did with Adam in the Garden before Adam sinned.

David

[Bob May]

This is good, Bob. And actually it is not all that confusing, and does make sense. You're right that we can actually experience things (enter) without first seeing them....so in that sense there is no set order. For consistency, I'm going to stick with my other analogies--let's go with the Seed--when we first believe/receive the Seed as deposit (enter the Gate), everything we need and will become/grow into is within the Seed -- all of Christ -- all the Outer Court, Holy Place, Most Holy -- all contained within that Seed, and all within us (we have entered into all as well). However, the ability to "see" what all that will unfold/grow into/develop/mature over time is not yet revealed to us -- that happens as the veils are lifted and as we grow up into all that is available. The ultimate goal is to manifest Christ through our lives at all times--completely abiding in Him, and His Word in and through us--and if we are still growing up into that, we can experience times of manifesting His Presence, or enlightenment, or healing power flowing to others--in other words, we can "enter" into that experience of the ultimate place of perfection/Mature Sonship sometimes before we are actually fully living in it. Sometimes, as you said, we may experience something of this realm, and then not have the understanding of it until later (seeing). But as a whole, I believe that it relates to vision--do we have the vision (are we "seeing") what the hope of glory really is--what the "riches of His glorious inheritance" for us is really all about? That requires "seeing," as Paul prayed for the Ephesians:

Eph 1:15-19

15 For this cause I also, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which is among you, and the love which (ye show) toward all the saints,

16 cease not to give thanks for you, making mention (of you) in my prayers;

17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him;

18 having the eyes of your heart enlightened, that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 and what the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe
ASV


Deb

Hi Deb, Richard, Rick and all,
The seed analogy is good here.
And it reminds me of one of my favorite parables. Once a long time ago it occured to me that whenever Jesus was asked or volunteered information about what the Kingdom of God (or Heaven) was like, he never really answered the question.
He woud say something like "what shall I liken the Kingdom of heaven to..." And then he would not describe it at all. He would describe how it came to us.
The reason, I think that is, is so that when it began to happen to us we would recognize that that was, in fact, what was happening.

Mr 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
Mr 4:27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.

So, the sleeping and rising night and day could be looked at as normal day to day consciousness as "night." And times when we are Spirtually more aware as "day." Also the "night" is the time for ideas to incubate as they do during sleep. (Where we get the saying "Let me sleep on it.")
And as the time period after a seed is planted is a period of incubation.

Also sleeping and waking does not necessarily mean unconscious and conscious.
We dream when sleeping, which is a type of consciousness. But in terms of ordinary everyday existence Dreaming is "less Real" than waking consciousness.
Whereas, when speaking of spiritual things, everyday ordinary consciousness is "less Real" than the consciousness Jesus is describing as the Kingdom of Heaven.

So one day we are all of a sudden "in" and "seeing" differently but don't know how it happened.
Mr 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself;

first the blade, ...The word (two-edged sword)...planting

then the ear, ... Hearing, when we realize what the word is saying.

after that the full corn in the ear., ... Spiritual Fruit, (which is more Spirtual seed, by the way) that is the result of the Spiritual seed that was planted and incubated has reached the light of day.

We are living in a different consciousness but did not witness the process itself.

Just as a farmer does not witness the process going on underground when he plants. Once above ground it is able to be witnessed/seen.

Bob

[Bob May]

Bob

Your posts and subject 'Deeper Mystery' had been a good read and has lead us on to consider the Tabernacle.

I just want to add a few short thoughts.

We know that the Most Holy Place in the Tabernacle could only be entered into once a year by the High Priest (a man).
It is interesting to note that at the time Jesus was at the point of death and at the point of defeating sinful flesh (the devil), the curtain in the temple was torn.

What did this signify? For one, the tearing was done by God because it was from top to bottom. The tearing downwards could not have been done by man. The coming of Jesus is consistent with "coming down" from God; God caused it to happen. Jesus was born of God through the natural birth of a child. It was the Holy Spririt (God's power) which "came down" to Mary and made her to conceive. It was God who provided His Son, without God's provision it was impossible for a man to enter the Most Holy Place permanently. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kindom as taught by the Apostle Paul. While Jesus was in the flesh, he was alienated from being in the presence of God in Heaven.


Hi David,

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

There are many places where Jesus uses the phrase "Father which is in heaven." Yet here he says that he, Jesus is in heaven.
He also says that he and the Father are one. Both before the Resurrection.
As Deb pointed out there is an awareness or consciousness that is available to us here, now while still in the body. This, I believe is referred to in Scripture as the Kingdom of Heaven.
In the Qabalah, the word "Kingdom" describes this manifest earth and body that we live in. Matter. This plane is also called "the Bride." So put the two terms together and you have the idea of living in this world "married to" the world where both Jesus and the Father dwell.
This is to live in this world as Jesus lived in this world. I and the Father are one.



The tearing of the veil signified that the division had been taken away. While Jesus was of flesh and blood, he could not enter into God’s presence. Hence another reason I say that Jesus was not God. After his transformation, the perfected nature of Jesus enabled him to be with God. This can be our hope too, because we are promised to have the same incorruptible nature after resurrection and acceptance into the Kingdom.


You say he could not enter into God's presence, but he said differently. "I and the Father are one."
We will recieve another body after death, or become aware that we already have that body now.
But we are talking consciousness. If you got in a car accident tommorow and were killed, where would YOU be? And what would be the nature of your consciousness? In other words, would you be enlightened to anything other than you just put off your body like taking off a coat?
The veil was torn at Jesus death on the cross. If we are priests as a result of Jesus blood, then we have become priests and able to enter the Holy place as shown in the tabernacle drawing.

"...Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Re 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father;..."

If you look closely at the drawing, after the veil was torn, the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place (Holy of Holies) a now IN THE SAME ROOM!!!

The High Priest went once per year into the Holy of Holies to do an atonement for the people. Jesus went in Once. Period.




Jesus is now elevated to the position of Great High Priest acting as our Mediator between man and God and Jesus permanently resides in the Most Holy Place in the presence of God.

Until Jesus comes back and sets up the Kingdom on earth and Jesus has reigned for a 1000 years finally has subduing all enemies including sin and death, Jesus remains the Great High Priest. After all the work has been done, Jesus hands over the Kingdom so that God is over all. At that time, the work of the Great High Priest is finished.

I foresee the time coming when all those living in the Kingdom on earth will have the same incorruptible body as Jesus. After Jesus has handed over the Kingdom to God, God will once again come and dwell with men as He did with Adam in the Garden before Adam sinned.


1co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Re 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
David[/QUOTE]

Will this change that you think will happen, happen without a change in awareness?
Or are we just going to be living in glorified bodies (bodies of light) in a physical world,
thinking the way we have always thought.

Bob

[David M]

Thanks Bob, I read what you say, but I remain unchanged until my thoughts change and as a result of taking in your thoughts and everyone else's on the forum and comparing them against all the scriptures.


Hi David,

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

I explained my way of reading into the expression "came down". I liken Jesus coming down as a consequence of God's action that took place after God (by His Holy Spirit) came down. The origin of Jesus is of God who is above. I do not take the words "came down" as literal referring to Jesus coming down from Heaven.

I liken Jesus coming down in John 3:13 to that of the New Jerusalem described in the Book of the Revelation.Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
The Revelation to John uses a lot of figurative language which cannot be taken literally. Therefore, I see the New Jerusalem coming about by God's design and not man's design. I do not expect the New Jersalem to descend to the earth as a prebuilt structure descending like a gigantic spaceship. I do expect the New Jerusalem to be built after the next destruction of Jerusalem, but as I say, it will be built by men according to God's pattern exactly after the manner Moses was shown how to construct the Tabernacle.

Good chatting with you.

David

[Bob May]

Thanks Bob, I read what you say, but I remain unchanged until my thoughts change and as a result of taking in your thoughts and everyone else's on the forum and comparing them against all the scriptures.


That's the way it should be. We tale it all in and compare it with Scripture.



I explained my way of reading into the expression "came down". I liken Jesus coming down as a consequence of God's action that took place after God (by His Holy Spirit) came down. The origin of Jesus is of God who is above. I do not take the words "came down" as literal referring to Jesus coming down from Heaven.



Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

My point was not in the coming down. I was pointing out to you that Jesus was stating that he was already in heaven.

Have a great day, David,
Bob

[David M]

Thanks Bob, I am having a great day as the snow has just arrived and gives me an excuse to stay in doors and relax.

It looks like this will be my last point to make about John3:13


Let's remind ourselves that Jeus was looked upon as the king of the Jews who had been prophesied to come; Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

I know some take this to me mean that the kingdom is literally within the person. In a way I can agree that if the spirit of Jesus is within us, we are a part of his kingdom. All believers with the spirit of Jesus within them are destined to become saints with Jesus in his kingdom to come on earth.

I also agree with the explaination that the word "within" can mean "amongst". Jesus is saying that kindgom of God is amongst them already because the king is already among you. However, this was not the time for Jesus to take up his kingship and throne on earth; that is still to come

A kingdom requires a king to rule over it. When Jesus was here, the King of the Jews was amongst them which is as good as saying the kingdom was amongst them.

When Jesus was nailed to the tree, the following inscription was written. 'Jesus King of the Jews'.

I like what the record says when this inscription was being written, the Jews told Pilate; "write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews" (John19:21) . The repost from Pilate was; (John 19:22) Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.


I think when Jesus was questioned by Pilate, Jesus confirmed that he was a king but he had not posed a threat to Pilate or Rome.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.



When the wise men from the east came looking for the child Jesus we read the following; Matt 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, 2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews?

There is no difficulty acknowledging that the title King was given to Jesus and of course when Herod heard about this, Jesus was perceived to pose a threat to his position and title and so caused the killing of the all the children under 2 years of age.


Of all the Gospel writers John is the most profound and deep. The words spoken are of the words of Jesus and on the face of it puts him in two places at the same time. Above anyone else Jesus was always in the presence of his Heavenly Father while he was on earth. He showed that he was in continual prayer to his Heavenly Father and he told his disciples John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Jesus tells us quite clearly that his Heavenly Father was revealing things to him. Jesus spiritually was constantly in the presence of God and vice versa making Jesus in heaven spiritually.


I know you have your interpretation Bob, but John3:13 does not tell me that Jesus was literally with his Heavenly Father in Heaven while at the same time physically on earth.



David

[debz]

Forgive me everyone. I am catching up on this thread sequentially.

Hi debz,

Christians are in Christ therefore they are in the Kingdom now and they are enjoying heaven now. Someday they will enjoy it fuller and unhindered. But they are seeing in part now and experiencing in part now. "The Kingdom of God is not meat, nor drink but righteousness, peace and joy (now)" Romans 14:17.

We do not metaphorically enter anything. The Kingdom and Christ and eternal life are realities that one enters when he sees. Christ in you is the Kingdom in you is eternal life in you. Eternal life is in the Son.

All the best,
Rick

Hi Rick!

First, I want to say I'm not ignoring your request (and Charisma's) for source on that other thread--I am just really busy right now, and I searched for my research notes, and can't find that right now--I will keep looking, but am lacking time--still need to respond to a post from Richard, too, that will take a while!

Regarding this post, we really aren't as far off in belief as it may appear--and I used to see it exactly the same way you do. After further study over time, I saw it a bit differently.

One thing we differ on here is you are saying if believers are "in Christ," then they are in the kingdom now. I agree, and disagree. In your earlier reply to Bob here, you stated:


Yes, Jesus is the Kingdom of God.

Here's where I disagree--I do not believe Jesus "IS" the Kingdom. I believe He is King of that Kingdom, but His Kingdom is the realm that He rules and reigns. Here's why:

Matt 25:34-35
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."

If we are already "in" the kingdom when we first believe, then what are we inheriting at this point?


Mark 9:1-3
And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."

Those "some who were standing there" were Peter, James and John, as the passage continues:

2 After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them.

...These are the ones who "saw" what it was like when Jesus "comes in His Kingdom" -- glorified bodies, etc. (A picture/prelude of what the time of Tabernacles/Fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles will look like, as that same passage continues to discuss that....)

Luke 11:2
He said to them, "When you pray, say: "'Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come...."

If Jesus WAS the kingdom, why would He teach them (and us) to pray that His Kingdom would come? We are to pray for the Kingdom to "come"/His will be done...on earth, as it is in heaven... If we are already in that, and had it all, we wouldn't need to pray that way.


Luke 12:31
But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

Why are we told to "seek His kingdom" if it is already there?

2 Tim 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom.

Why does Paul state that the Lord will "bring him to the kingdom," if he is supposed to already be there?

Heb 12:28-29
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our "God is a consuming fire."

This is a good one, IMO: it points out that we are "RECEIVING" a kingdom...in other words, it is progressively being acquired by us. That is my whole point in my illustrations about the Holy Place/Most Holy Place "realms" of the Kingdom...and that is what I am trying to show: there are elements of the kingdom that we are yet to walk in, that can be inherited/attained to, while we are still on earth....that is why we pray "thy kingdom come ON EARTH..." This verse also points out that "our God is a consuming fire..." The "fire" of God is in His Presence--it resides in the Most Holy Place realm--it is the place of the "baptism of fire"

James 2:5-6
Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

Again, if those who already have faith already have the kingdom, then why would it be stated that they will "inherit the kingdom" that is promised?


2 Peter 1:10-11
10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Same here...if they are already "IN" the Kingdom, then why would they LATER be receiving a rich welcome into it? I used to believe all of this applied to after we die....as long as we are believers, then "after we die we will 'enter the kingdom'" I now believe there is much, much more to this than meets the eye initially. We are supposed to be inheriting the kingdom, progressively, NOW....and IMO, most often you first have to have "vision" or "see" what it is you are aiming for as an inheritance... Paul spoke an awful lot about all this...

As I said, Rick...I don't believe you and I are that far off in our core beliefs...although I suspect you think I'm a little (or a lot, LOL) off the deep in some ways. Let's keep examining it all...one way or the other the Truth will come through, because I know we all have a heart for knowing Truth.

Much love,

Deb

[Lotus Feet]

Hi Rick!
Regarding this post, we really aren't as far off in belief as it may appear--and I used to see it exactly the same way you do. After further study over time, I saw it a bit differently.

Belief will lead you nowhere because you have to shed all belief before you can enter the eye of the needle. The eye of the needle is very small as such you cannot take anything with you. When you get the other side then you're given what is required for your divine purpose of being on the planet. Of course, I speak from experience.



One thing we differ on here is you are saying if believers are "in Christ," then they are in the kingdom now. I agree, and disagree. In your earlier reply to Bob here, you stated:

As Christ told his followers they have to become like little children to enter the kingdom of heaven. He was talking about the first haven of the happiness within. I have shared more about that on this post.
http://www.academysounds.blogspot.com/2012/02/sign-of-gold.html



Here's where I disagree--I do not believe Jesus "IS" the Kingdom. I believe He is King of that Kingdom, but His Kingdom is the realm that He rules and reigns. Here's why:

Matt 25:34-35
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."

If we are already "in" the kingdom when we first believe, then what are we inheriting at this point?


Mark 9:1-3
And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."

Those "some who were standing there" were Peter, James and John, as the passage continues:

Why do you speak of people instead of understand what he was saying?

Do you know what tasting death is about?

Christians are tasting death all of the time because they did not understand his teachings. How could they understand the true teachings of Jesus Christ if they were not a mystic and healer in the nature that he was?

Professor Tiller understood where us mystics are coming from.

'it’s easier to take a mystic and teach them scientific principals, than it is to take a scientist and engage them in mystic teachings.' William Tiller Phd




If Jesus WAS the kingdom, why would He teach them (and us) to pray that His Kingdom would come? We are to pray for the Kingdom to "come"/His will be done...on earth, as it is in heaven... If we are already in that, and had it all, we wouldn't need to pray that way.

Jesus referred people to his heavenly Father. He directed them in the right direction.

Heal the 'need' that is why Jesus asked his followers to become like little children.




Luke 12:31
But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

Why are we told to "seek His kingdom" if it is already there?

You have to seek within. Seek and you shall find. Knock and the door will open.



Heb 12:28-29
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our "God is a consuming fire."

This is a good one, IMO: it points out that we are "RECEIVING" a kingdom...in other words, it is progressively being acquired by us. That is my whole point in my illustrations about the Holy Place/Most Holy Place "realms" of the Kingdom...and that is what I am trying to show: there are elements of the kingdom that we are yet to walk in, that can be inherited/attained to, while we are still on earth....that is why we pray "thy kingdom come ON EARTH..." This verse also points out that "our God is a consuming fire..." The "fire" of God is in His Presence--it resides in the Most Holy Place realm--it is the place of the "baptism of fire"

The bible also tells you that JOSEPH is the flame, Jacob is the fire and ESAU is stubble in this timeline. Esau is symbolic of the USA. ESAU and the men of EDOM. Red and Hairy e.g. Indians. See the prophecy of Obadiah.




James 2:5-6
Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

Again, if those who already have faith already have the kingdom, then why would it be stated that they will "inherit the kingdom" that is promised?



The word faith did not exist pre 1300's, the word 'faith' was invented by theologians.

The original word was 'Trustful loyalty' big difference in meaning.

One does not have faith in a partner one has trustful loyalty.

It is the sacred union with the divine.




2 Peter 1:10-11
10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Most Christians haven't left first base due to their attachments, and if most Christians understood what it really means to follow him, most would leave Christianity like a shot. As Jesus said to me about the Christians 'The Church has given the people a false sense of security'.

Lotus

[debz]

Belief will lead you nowhere because you have to shed all belief before you can enter the eye of the needle. The eye of the needle is very small as such you cannot take anything with you. When you get the other side then you're given what is required for your divine purpose of being on the planet. Of course, I speak from experience.



As Christ told his followers they have to become like little children to enter the kingdom of heaven. He was talking about the first haven of the happiness within. I have shared more about that on this post.
http://www.academysounds.blogspot.com/2012/02/sign-of-gold.html



Why do you speak of people instead of understand what he was saying?

Do you know what tasting death is about?

Christians are tasting death all of the time because they did not understand his teachings. How could they understand the true teachings of Jesus Christ if they were not a mystic and healer in the nature that he was?

Professor Tiller understood where us mystics are coming from.

'it’s easier to take a mystic and teach them scientific principals, than it is to take a scientist and engage them in mystic teachings.' William Tiller Phd




Jesus referred people to his heavenly Father. He directed them in the right direction.

Heal the 'need' that is why Jesus asked his followers to become like little children.



You have to seek within. Seek and you shall find. Knock and the door will open.



The bible also tells you that JOSEPH is the flame, Jacob is the fire and ESAU is stubble in this timeline. Esau is symbolic of the USA. ESAU and the men of EDOM. Red and Hairy e.g. Indians. See the prophecy of Obadiah.



The word faith did not exist pre 1300's, the word 'faith' was invented by theologians.

The original word was 'Trustful loyalty' big difference in meaning.

One does not have faith in a partner one has trustful loyalty.

It is the sacred union with the divine.




Most Christians haven't left first base due to their attachments, and if most Christians understood what it really means to follow him, most would leave Christianity like a shot. As Jesus said to me about the Christians 'The Church has given the people a false sense of security'.

Lotus

Hey Lotus,

I responded to another thread you started. As for this one, this was a conversation between Rick and I, not you and I. I am discussing things with him based on previous conversations. No offense, but you really don't know what I "believe" yet, and whether or not I understand "mystical" things or not. You have no idea of my history or experience with Christ, and you are speaking to me as if you do. I do not adhere to much of traditional Christianity, although I once did. I found that most "Christians" did not represent or understand the Spirit of Truth, and most were not pursuing the things of the Spirit (healing, revelation, etc.) as I was being led to.

Deb

[Lotus Feet]

Hey Lotus,

I responded to another thread you started. As for this one, this was a conversation between Rick and I, not you and I. I am discussing things with him based on previous conversations. No offense, but you really don't know what I "believe" yet, and whether or not I understand "mystical" things or not. You have no idea of my history or experience with Christ, and you are speaking to me as if you do. I do not adhere to much of traditional Christianity, although I once did. I found that most "Christians" did not represent or understand the Spirit of Truth, and most were not pursuing the things of the Spirit (healing, revelation, etc.) as I was being led to.

Deb

Hi Deb, I responded to the conversation that you were both having. As is the human right of everyone on a public forum. Take nothing personally dear one and yes you are correct about the Spirit of Truth that I am.

Indeed Jesus was a healer of integrity and his true followers are healers, as you know that is also confirmed in scripture when it states that it is the healers that are his family. The Apostles were all healers and mystics at different levels of evolvement. Magdalene was also an aromatherapist and worked with oils and essences in addition to being a clairvoyant.

Indeed Jesus leads people to healing path first for healing self and for healing others and revelation is a natural part of it because he works closely with the healers.

[heb13-13]

Hi Deb,

Thanks for your PM telling me about this post. Thanks to a recent "major distraction" I certainly did miss your reply here.

You are right that we probably are not that far off. Internet communication (typing) is so limiting, isn't it. I bet we would accomplish a lot and save much time if we were face to face, but we're not and won't be, so here we go.


Hi Rick!

First, I want to say I'm not ignoring your request (and Charisma's) for source on that other thread--I am just really busy right now, and I searched for my research notes, and can't find that right now--I will keep looking, but am lacking time--still need to respond to a post from Richard, too, that will take a while!

Regarding this post, we really aren't as far off in belief as it may appear--and I used to see it exactly the same way you do. After further study over time, I saw it a bit differently.

One thing we differ on here is you are saying if believers are "in Christ," then they are in the kingdom now. I agree, and disagree. In your earlier reply to Bob here, you stated:



Here's where I disagree--I do not believe Jesus "IS" the Kingdom. I believe He is King of that Kingdom, but His Kingdom is the realm that He rules and reigns. Here's why:

Matt 25:34-35
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."

If we are already "in" the kingdom when we first believe, then what are we inheriting at this point?


Mark 9:1-3
And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."

Those "some who were standing there" were Peter, James and John, as the passage continues:

2 After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them.

...These are the ones who "saw" what it was like when Jesus "comes in His Kingdom" -- glorified bodies, etc. (A picture/prelude of what the time of Tabernacles/Fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles will look like, as that same passage continues to discuss that....)

Luke 11:2
He said to them, "When you pray, say: "'Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come...."

If Jesus WAS the kingdom, why would He teach them (and us) to pray that His Kingdom would come? We are to pray for the Kingdom to "come"/His will be done...on earth, as it is in heaven... If we are already in that, and had it all, we wouldn't need to pray that way.


Luke 12:31
But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

Why are we told to "seek His kingdom" if it is already there?

2 Tim 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom.

Why does Paul state that the Lord will "bring him to the kingdom," if he is supposed to already be there?

Heb 12:28-29
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our "God is a consuming fire."

This is a good one, IMO: it points out that we are "RECEIVING" a kingdom...in other words, it is progressively being acquired by us. That is my whole point in my illustrations about the Holy Place/Most Holy Place "realms" of the Kingdom...and that is what I am trying to show: there are elements of the kingdom that we are yet to walk in, that can be inherited/attained to, while we are still on earth....that is why we pray "thy kingdom come ON EARTH..." This verse also points out that "our God is a consuming fire..." The "fire" of God is in His Presence--it resides in the Most Holy Place realm--it is the place of the "baptism of fire"

James 2:5-6
Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

Again, if those who already have faith already have the kingdom, then why would it be stated that they will "inherit the kingdom" that is promised?


2 Peter 1:10-11
10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Same here...if they are already "IN" the Kingdom, then why would they LATER be receiving a rich welcome into it? I used to believe all of this applied to after we die....as long as we are believers, then "after we die we will 'enter the kingdom'" I now believe there is much, much more to this than meets the eye initially. We are supposed to be inheriting the kingdom, progressively, NOW....and IMO, most often you first have to have "vision" or "see" what it is you are aiming for as an inheritance... Paul spoke an awful lot about all this...

As I said, Rick...I don't believe you and I are that far off in our core beliefs...although I suspect you think I'm a little (or a lot, LOL) off the deep in some ways. Let's keep examining it all...one way or the other the Truth will come through, because I know we all have a heart for knowing Truth.

Much love,

Deb

Basically, what is a King without His Kingdom and what is a Kingdom without the King.

When I pray "thy Kingdom come", I know full well the Kingdom is nothing without the King, so I could just as well be praying "thy King come", then I get the Kingdom, too.

Christ permeates all. When we inherit the Kingdom, we are inheriting the Christ. It's not like the Kingdom is a special place in the Universe or something like that. It's a person. That is why I said Jesus is the Kingdom. We inherit a Person not a place. Or you could say He is that "place" also.

"Enter into the Joy of the Lord, thou good and faithful servant."

We are in Him and He in us.

It's just the way I see it Deb. I don't see a Kingdom or a special place as detracting from Him because I see it as all the same. The Lord Jesus. It's not a doctrine that I am pushing or anything like that. It's like heaven. To me, heaven is not heaven if Jesus is not there. And what I mean by Jesus is the nature and character and attributes of God. We know Him as Jesus Christ. God with us.

Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.


Rev 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things , but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ.

All the best,
Rick