Two Witnesses

[kathryn]

Hello All...I know there was a brief discussion on the two witnesses in Rev.11 somewhere but I still haven't mastered the "search" option. Everytime I type in my key words, it tells me I haven't enough:confused2:And pray tell..Vat is a Vild card?:confused: Anyway...I hope you don't mind me starting a new thread. It was either that or spend another hour or so looking and it's 1:30 am here in Prince George.
The subject of the two witnesses has always facinated me and I've had a theory for years, that I've never felt I had enough scriptural keys to adequately explain. At the same time, nothing I have read has been able to adequately remove it from my mind. All this to say, I hope you don't mind if I throw out a few "thoughts" on the subject.
I have always thought that Adam and Eve could be considered as God's first two witnesses in history, and if so, could the root of the understanding of the two witnesses in Revelation, be found in their pre-fall state, in Genesis? They were "one" in a unique way we have not experienced since the Fall and as I see redemption, at least in part, it is a move back towards Oneness and the restoration of Adam and Eve's (man's) dominion over the earth (in and through the second and last Adam, Jesus Christ.)
If it is possible that there is a "two witness theme" in redemption, beginning with Adam and Eve...it is then likely that God would have hidden, within the womb of Scripture, types and shadows of our "two witnesses" which would expand as we progressed in redemption towards the ultimate fulfillment of Oneness.
While these examples(of types and shadows) are totally subjective, in that I believe the Lord gave me some revelation of them, I want to mention them because I have never been able to prove them (in reference to my understanding) as scripturally wrong...but neither,as I said, been given enough to complete the revelation. I've simply had them sitting on the back burner simmering away, waiting for more ingredients to be added (or someone to dump the pot once and for all!:D
When the idea was forming in me, that scripture may hold a progressive picture of our first "two witnesses" as they walked through redemption, I asked the Lord "if and when" they showed up in their next "stage", after the Fall. Lo and behold...immediately a picture of the two tablets of the Law popped into my head...and the words: " two tablets of witness". It is interesting to note that Jewish scholars throughout the ages have referred to the tablets as the "teomati" or twins. To quote one Jewish site:" The giving of the twins (or teomin) is referred to as a "wedding" between God and Israel. In the Song of Songs (5:2) the highest level of marriage is referred to as bride and groom being identical twins." Before I move on to the "3rd" stage, I want to mention that Adam and Eve(pre-fall) were surrounded by the wall around Eden. After the Fall, they moved outside the wall. The first two tablets of witness had no protection and were broken. The second set were placed in an Ark surrounding them. (like a womb?)
The two witnesses of Revelation 11, I believe represent them in the 3rd stage, where they have had their hearts of stone turned to "flesh" by God's "fiery" Law written on them,(hence the fire which comes out of their mouths) These two witnesses have had the full power of the double witness restored to them, having had the Law written fully on their hearts.
My understanding of what I believe may be "picture" of the fourth and final stage, developed out of a study of the second coming of Christ as being a "Joseph work". I don't know how many of you are familiar with this concept. It's too big a topic to bring up in this post, except to mention that the "dominion mandate" and the "fruitfulness mandate" which Adam and Eve were given, was eventually split between the House of Judah and the House of Joseph and it is the House of Joseph which holds the legal birthright to the name "Israel". If I am understanding the fourth and final stage correctly, these flow back together into One, in a beautiful way, as hopefully you will see. (and also links to the first witnesses in the garden as "one"and the second stage and the twin tablets of witness becoming "one" in the marriage between God and Israel.
During this time, the Lord gave me two visions which occured approx. a month apart. In no way do I feel I have a complete understanding of them, so please keep this in mind as you are reading them.
The first vision occurred repeatedly over several days. The Lord's sense of humour never fails to amaze me! I hate folding laundry, especially socks as they always lose their partner. In the vision, the Lord moved His Hand into a (one) sock, which was inside-out, grabbed the inside of the toe, and pulled the sock right-side out. I would be doing housework, or reading, or whatever...and the vision would occur, again and again, until I finally said 'enough already! What are you saying to me Lord?' (This summer, seven years after this vision, I met a woman in New Zealand who was given the identical vision..with one exception: He used what she described as a grappling hook to pull the toe through) He said to me, in response to my question: "This is redemption". (and amazingly, my friend in New Zealand was given the same interpretation)
The second vision occured while I was reading the verses about Joseph being given his wife and his new name: Zaphnath paaneah. I saw a large circle and while I couldn't "see" anything within it, I somehow knew there was something inside. I eagerly looked it up and the definition given in my Dictionary of Scripture/Proper Names by J.B. Jackson was: "The Treasury of The Glorious Rest". Again, I saw the circle and there was light emanating from it. I knew that it was somehow connected to the Treasury of the Glorious Rest.
The Treasury of the Glorious Rest, as far as I have come to understand it (which may not be too far;) is a two stage, circular picture or "type" of the great consummation, or move into Oneness of the "two". (and in doing so, it becomes a "threefold cord" I believe)
In the first stage, Christ the Bridegroom is the "Treasury"...and Adam/Eve/Man/Woman/Bride, is the Glorious Rest within. who has been "consumed" by Him. (corporately, the Bride IN Christ) I asked the Lord if He could give me a witness in His creation, to this stage, which is the placement of the Bride in Christ. (or the Glorious Rest in the Treasury) He gave me "Pi"...to which I replied: "HUH?" Not having a mathematical bone in my body, I didn't have a clue. He said (as I heard Him in my spirit)the Bride was the diameter of the circle/treasury, who must be "multiplied" (by revelation/Pi) in order to KNOW her Bridegroom/Circumferance. Note that in this stage, as there was a wall around the first two witnesses, and an arc around the second set of tablets of witnesses(after the first set were broken), there is a circular "wall" around the Bride(diameter) He showed me months later, a wonderful picture of this, when David encompassed Nabal's territory like a "wall" and Abigail goes out to meet him(as diameter), carrying sustenance, beforethey were consumated as man and wife.
In the second stage, the role is reversed (like the sock) and the Bride/Glorious Rest, now "consumes" her Bridegroom/Treasury(by consuming His flesh and blood). He then becomes her Glorious Rest and she becomes the Treasury. (Christ fully IN the Bride. 'A woman shall encompass a man?)
The witness in creation the Lord gave me for this second stage, is the Sun. There is no longer any division between them, no wall. They are One..fully consumated...powered by the molten core. (did you know core comes from the French word meaning "heart"?)
(For the mathematicians out there, Joseph's new name, Zaphnath paaneah has the gematria of 828. If this describes the circle or treasury, that makes the diameter, 264. I just know that if I understood mathematics, there are gems to plum in those two numbers. Regardless of whether this post makes any sense to you, I would be extremely interested in anything anyone might be able to tell me about the numbers. I did notice on the surface of things, the sock principal seems be described by the 828, as it is the same in both directions. (8 pulled through 2 is still 8:)
After ALL of that...I still can't, in confidence, explain who the two witnesses in Revelation are. I can't quite throw out the idea that they are literal people (company of?)simply because the stone tablets of witness become "flesh" as they are written on our hearts. Someone (I think?)mentioned in an earlier post ,that because the fire coming out of their mouths is symbolic, they were therefore probably symbolic...but Christ is literal, while the sword in His mouth is symbolic. I don't know!
I do believe the fourth stage (if I'm not just going through some weird hormonal stage..heh:D...the Treasury of the Glorious Rest...describes the transfigured saints who rule and reign with Christ.
Well...there it is fellows...As I think Richard said...much work still has to be done on Revelation 11! Kathryn

[kathryn]

Wow..just found another little ingredient to add to that pot this morning, thanks to the Bible Wheel:thumb:!
I had stumbled across Isaiah 11:10 one day, not long after the vision of the circle, which I believe was connected to the The Treasury of the Glorious Rest as a "picture" of the theme of the two witnesses rooted in Genesis. At first, all that stood out to me was the last part of the verse:
and his rest
shall be glorious(the Glorious Rest?)

The way the verse is divided up for gematria is as follows:

and in that day
there shall be a root 800
of Jesses 320
which shall stand 114
for an ensign 110
of the people 110
to it shall the
gentiles 19
seek 504
and his rest 109
shall be glorious 32
For an ensign and of the people have the identical value of 110 , which seems to suggest that they are connected...Perhaps one and the same? Could the "ensign" itself, be composed of "the people"? And if so, is the "ensign" another "picture" or stage of the witnesses? Richard, can you elaborate on that little word "of"? Thanks!

[kathryn]

There is one more interesting tidbit that came into more focus after studing the Biblewheel this morning, I wanted to share.
When the monument of the twin tablets of the law was ordered removed from the Courthouse in Alabama, I naturally took note, as I often find the Lord will confirm something I am studying in a news event. In the following article: http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Moore, the weight of the tablets, 5280 lbs (or 2400k) were specifically mentioned. I had a distinct inner impression to "remember" this number, although, at the time, I didn't know why.
After praying, I felt the Lord drawing my attention to the number "5820" as standing for the "weight" of the Law(not the actual monument), but as in its "power" or "strength". (ie.."he had the weight of the law thrown at him)
In the gematria reference, the number 580 is the gematria for the Key (Is. 22.22) One of the primary identities based on the number 528,is :
the power of the Holy people 528
What is the "power of the Holy people? Wouldn't you say it was Christ IN them, the fulfillment of the Law, written on their hearts? (and could these "Holy people" be the "people" in Isaiah 11.10 ("which shall stand as an ensign of the people")
Interestingly enough, the diameter/bride/264 number occurs twice, when you divide 5280 by 2= 2640. Co-incidentally, we have a "twined" diameter number within the "weight" (or power) of the Law. (subjective of course, but it little occurances like this that keep that pot bubbling on the back burner!)
As an end note, I wondered if the movement of the twin tablets out of the worldly court system was prophetic in some way. Since 2001, and the fall of the twin towers)and the collapse of the Minniapolis bridge between the twin cities, I can't help but think God is drawing our attention to this "theme".

[TheForgiven]

As an end note, I wondered if the movement of the twin tablets out of the worldly court system was prophetic in some way. Since 2001, and the fall of the twin tower)and the collapse of the Minniapolis bridge between the twin cities, I can't help but think God is drawing our attention to this "theme".

I don't know that the tablets have anything to do with our day. I do, however, believe that Christ is King and His reign is eternal, now and forever. Though I do not see Him, I know that He is King. And though I do not always obey Him, He is still King, but when I disobey, He is my judge, and rightoues are His judgments.

That is the faith every Christian should have. Why many spend all their lives waiting for Him is beyond me....He's already here, in our hearts and speaking to us through the Inspiration (Holy Spirit) of His mind within our hearts. That's what Spirit means....to inspire. That is the "heart of flesh" you spoke of. Therefore, my faith says that the fall of the twin towers was not connected to anything but His judgment. His judgments are always felt in every generation and nation. Nations rise and fall, and that's the outcome of those who are blessed by the King, and those who are being rebuked by the King. Thus, I believe we are being warned, but I do not believe the tablets have anything to do with the twin towers. :dontknow:

My opinion on the two witnesses are as the scripture says, "They are the two Lamp Stands and two Olive Trees who stand before the Lord of the Earth..." And according to Revelation chapter 1, the Lamp Stands are the Churches. John saw seven gold lamp stands, and Christ tells him that those represented the seven Churches of Asia (Formerly known as Asia Minor, now present day Turkey). In the same way, John speaks of two specific lamp stands and Olive trees, which I believe may represent the Church in Jerusalem and the Church in Rome. But that is just my opinion. I do believe without a dbout, however, that the two witnesses represent two Churches. Perhaps not specifically in a particular nation, but two branches in general. And historically speaking, there were only two denominations which existed:

1. Roman Catholic Church (Not until the 3rd century)
2. Greek Orthodox Church

But I can't accept this because the RCC didn't come into play until the 3rd century, under Constantine. The Greek Orthodox Churches were perishes established by some of the Apostles, primarily from Asia Minor. So my only thought is the two witnesses must have been the Church in Jerusalem and the Church in Rome (Peter in Jerusalem and Paul in Rome).

I'm interested in your thoughts.

Joe

P.S. Are you UPC?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hello All...I know there was a brief discussion on the two witnesses in Rev.11 somewhere but I still haven't mastered the "search" option. Everytime I type in my key words, it tells me I haven't enough:confused2:And pray tell..Vat is a Vild card?:confused:
Die vildcard ist a character (typically an asterix) that tells the seach software to match anything to it. For example, searching for inherit will return posts with inherit but searching for inherit* will return posts with any word that begins with inherit, such as inherit, inherits, inheritance, etc.

I think the search words have to be longer than three letters, or you will get an error message.



Anyway...I hope you don't mind me starting a new thread. It was either that or spend another hour or so looking and it's 1:30 am here in Prince George.
Actually, it was good that you started a new thread, since the other thread is supposed to be about the A Mystery - What is the identity of Babylon the Great? (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=252) But its almost impossible to keep these conversations to a single topic becuase everything is linked to everything else in the Bible.



The subject of the two witnesses has always facinated me and I've had a theory for years, that I've never felt I had enough scriptural keys to adequately explain. At the same time, nothing I have read has been able to adequately remove it from my mind. All this to say, I hope you don't mind if I throw out a few "thoughts" on the subject.
Mind? Never! You thoughts are most welcome. Every new point of view helps us arrive at the truth.



I have always thought that Adam and Eve could be considered as God's first two witnesses in history, and if so, could the root of the understanding of the two witnesses in Revelation, be found in their pre-fall state, in Genesis? They were "one" in a unique way we have not experienced since the Fall and as I see redemption, at least in part, it is a move back towards Oneness and the restoration of Adam and Eve's (man's) dominion over the earth (in and through the second and last Adam, Jesus Christ.)
If it is possible that there is a "two witness theme" in redemption, beginning with Adam and Eve...it is then likely that God would have hidden, within the womb of Scripture, types and shadows of our "two witnesses" which would expand as we progressed in redemption towards the ultimate fulfillment of Oneness.
The basic idea of repetative themes in Scripture is right on in my book. :thumb: How (and if) this applies to Adam, Eve, and the two witnesses remains to be seen, but I am open to look more ....



While these examples(of types and shadows) are totally subjective, in that I believe the Lord gave me some revelation of them, I want to mention them because I have never been able to prove them (in reference to my understanding) as scripturally wrong...but neither,as I said, been given enough to complete the revelation. I've simply had them sitting on the back burner simmering away, waiting for more ingredients to be added (or someone to dump the pot once and for all!:D
:lol: I know how you feel. I think this is a pretty good place to dump your ideas. If they sprout into something, great! If not, I'm sure one of us would be happy to tell you why they are wrong! <snicker>



When the idea was forming in me, that scripture may hold a progressive picture of our first "two witnesses" as they walked through redemption, I asked the Lord "if and when" they showed up in their next "stage", after the Fall. Lo and behold...immediately a picture of the two tablets of the Law popped into my head...and the words: " two tablets of witness". It is interesting to note that Jewish scholars throughout the ages have referred to the tablets as the "teomati" or twins. To quote one Jewish site:" The giving of the twins (or teomin) is referred to as a "wedding" between God and Israel. In the Song of Songs (5:2) the highest level of marriage is referred to as bride and groom being identical twins." [/qute]
Right on! :thumb: Rose and I were chatting about the "Two Tablets of the Testimony = Edut = Witness" just last night. The connection with the wedding is fascinating, since it takes us right back to Adam and Eve. The Jewish tradition that associates the giving of the Law (Ten Commandments) at Sinai with Pentecost (when God wrote His Law on our hearts) and the idea of Marriage with God is also very very deep.

[quote=kathryn;3358]
Before I move on to the "3rd" stage, I want to mention that Adam and Eve(pre-fall) were surrounded by the wall around Eden. After the Fall, they moved outside the wall. The first two tablets of witness had no protection and were broken. The second set were placed in an Ark surrounding them. (like a womb?)
The two witnesses of Revelation 11, I believe represent them in the 3rd stage, where they have had their hearts of stone turned to "flesh" by God's "fiery" Law written on them,(hence the fire which comes out of their mouths) These two witnesses have had the full power of the double witness restored to them, having had the Law written fully on their hearts.
My understanding of what I believe may be "picture" of the fourth and final stage, developed out of a study of the second coming of Christ as being a "Joseph work". I don't know how many of you are familiar with this concept. It's too big a topic to bring up in this post, except to mention that the "dominion mandate" and the "fruitfulness mandate" which Adam and Eve were given, was eventually split between the House of Judah and the House of Joseph and it is the House of Joseph which holds the legal birthright to the name "Israel".
I've heard a few "echoes" of the idea that Ephraim gets the "land promises" but they disturbed me because it was used to argue for the idea that God has divided His people into Christians who inherit the "spiritual" promises given to Abraham versus the Jews who will inherit the "earthly" promises. I find that doctrine to be extremely problematic.



If I am understanding the fourth and final stage correctly, these flow back together into One, in a beautiful way, as hopefully you will see. (and also links to the first witnesses in the garden as "one"and the second stage and the twin tablets of witness becoming "one" in the marriage between God and Israel.
During this time, the Lord gave me two visions which occured approx. a month apart. In no way do I feel I have a complete understanding of them, so please keep this in mind as you are reading them.
The first vision occurred repeatedly over several days. The Lord's sense of humour never fails to amaze me! I hate folding laundry, especially socks as they always lose their partner. In the vision, the Lord moved His Hand into a (one) sock, which was inside-out, grabbed the inside of the toe, and pulled the sock right-side out. I would be doing housework, or reading, or whatever...and the vision would occur, again and again, until I finally said 'enough already! What are you saying to me Lord?' (This summer, seven years after this vision, I met a woman in New Zealand who was given the identical vision..with one exception: He used what she described as a grappling hook to pull the toe through) He said to me, in response to my question: "This is redemption". (and amazingly, my friend in New Zealand was given the same interpretation)
The second vision occured while I was reading the verses about Joseph being given his wife and his new name: Zaphnath paaneah. I saw a large circle and while I couldn't "see" anything within it, I somehow knew there was something inside. I eagerly looked it up and the definition given in my Dictionary of Scripture/Proper Names by J.B. Jackson was: "The Treasury of The Glorious Rest". Again, I saw the circle and there was light emanating from it. I knew that it was somehow connected to the Treasury of the Glorious Rest.
The Treasury of the Glorious Rest, as far as I have come to understand it (which may not be too far;) is a two stage, circular picture or "type" of the great consummation, or move into Oneness of the "two". (and in doing so, it becomes a "threefold cord" I believe)
In the first stage, Christ the Bridegroom is the "Treasury"...and Adam/Eve/Man/Woman/Bride, is the Glorious Rest within. who has been "consumed" by Him. (corporately, the Bride IN Christ) I asked the Lord if He could give me a witness in His creation, to this stage, which is the placement of the Bride in Christ. (or the Glorious Rest in the Treasury) He gave me "Pi"...to which I replied: "HUH?" Not having a mathematical bone in my body, I didn't have a clue. He said (as I heard Him in my spirit)the Bride was the diameter of the circle/treasury, who must be "multiplied" (by revelation/Pi) in order to KNOW her Bridegroom/Circumferance. Note that in this stage, as there was a wall around the first two witnesses, and an arc around the second set of tablets of witnesses(after the first set were broken), there is a circular "wall" around the Bride(diameter) He showed me months later, a wonderful picture of this, when David encompassed Nabal's territory like a "wall" and Abigail goes out to meet him(as diameter), carrying sustenance, beforethey were consumated as man and wife.
In the second stage, the role is reversed (like the sock) and the Bride/Glorious Rest, now "consumes" her Bridegroom/Treasury(by consuming His flesh and blood). He then becomes her Glorious Rest and she becomes the Treasury. (Christ fully IN the Bride. 'A woman shall encompass a man?)
The witness in creation the Lord gave me for this second stage, is the Sun. There is no longer any division between them, no wall. They are One..fully consumated...powered by the molten core. (did you know core comes from the French word meaning "heart"?)
(For the mathematicians out there, Joseph's new name, Zaphnath paaneah has the gematria of 828. If this describes the circle or treasury, that makes the diameter, 264. I just know that if I understood mathematics, there are gems to plum in those two numbers. Regardless of whether this post makes any sense to you, I would be extremely interested in anything anyone might be able to tell me about the numbers. I did notice on the surface of things, the sock principal seems be described by the 828, as it is the same in both directions. (8 pulled through 2 is still 8:)
After ALL of that...I still can't, in confidence, explain who the two witnesses in Revelation are. I can't quite throw out the idea that they are literal people (company of?)simply because the stone tablets of witness become "flesh" as they are written on our hearts. Someone (I think?)mentioned in an earlier post ,that because the fire coming out of their mouths is symbolic, they were therefore probably symbolic...but Christ is literal, while the sword in His mouth is symbolic. I don't know!
I do believe the fourth stage (if I'm not just going through some weird hormonal stage..heh:D...the Treasury of the Glorious Rest...describes the transfigured saints who rule and reign with Christ.
Well...there it is fellows...As I think Richard said...much work still has to be done on Revelation 11! Kathryn
Wow - that a lot to digest! I followed everything pretty well up to the "sock" vision but then things started to fuzz out a bit.

Thanks for sharing. You made a lot of connections that made sense to me.

Richard

[kathryn]

Thank you both Joe and Richard for responding to my posts. I shouldn't have tossed out such a mouthful and I don't blame you for becoming fuzzy Richard, when the socks hit you. Har! At least, having finally attempted to 'splain my thoughts...the post is on file...and if some more ingredients should present themselves to add to the pot, it can now sit there and simmer, without me having to type it all out again:D Also Richard...the study on the "Joseph Work" came from Dr. Stephen Jone's book: The Struggle For the Birthright...and does not condone the doctrine that divides the Christians inheriting the spiritual promises and the Jews, the earthy ones.(I totally disagree with this, as does he) I'm sorry if I gave you that impression with the statement I made about the mandates being divided. Maybe one day we can explore this topic in more detail.
Joe....I appreciate your comments and I undertand how you are making the connection between the two lampstands, two churches. I would like to hear more of how you fit this in with Revelation 11. I am a visual learner (to the point where it was considered a disability in school) and more often than not, God has to give me revelation through a witness in His Creation before He can then demonstrate it in His Word. In other words...it might take awhile before I "get it". :)
I have no idea what a UPC is...so I couldn't tell you if I am one or not:confused2: (I'd hate to think of going through life being one, and never knowing!):lol: Could you 'splain?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Thank you both Joe and Richard for responding to my posts.
You are most welcome! :yo:


I shouldn't have tossed out such a mouthful and I don't blame you for becoming fuzzy Richard, when the socks hit you. Har!
Yah - that be funny!


At least, having finally attempted to 'splain my thoughts...the post is on file...and if some more ingredients should present themselves to add to the pot, it can now sit there and simmer, without me having to type it all out again:D
That's the great thing about forums. People get a chance to express themselves, and then the whole topic can simmer for a week or a year and then all the sudden someone comes along and continues the converstion.



Also Richard...the study on the "Joseph Work" came from Dr. Stephen Jone's book: The Struggle For the Birthright...and does not condone the doctrine that divides the Christians inheriting the spiritual promises and the Jews, the earthy ones.(I totally disagree with this, as does he) I'm sorry if I gave you that impression with the statement I made about the mandates being divided.
No worries there! I'm just glad I don't have to dispute you on that point. Its a "pet peave" of mine because it destroys the Unity that Christ died to create, as it is written:


Ephesians 2:11-22 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
ONE LORD, ONE SPIRIT, ONE BODY, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM!



Maybe one day we can explore this topic in more detail.
Yeah, maybe ONE DAY! :lol:

Richard

[TheForgiven]

Joe....I appreciate your comments and I undertand how you are making the connection between the two lampstands, two churches. I would like to hear more of how you fit this in with Revelation 11. I am a visual learner (to the point where it was considered a disability in school) and more often than not, God has to give me revelation through a witness in His Creation before He can then demonstrate it in His Word. In other words...it might take awhile before I "get it".
I have no idea what a UPC is...so I couldn't tell you if I am one or not (I'd hate to think of going through life being one, and never knowing!) Could you 'splain?

Let me first say Katharyn that I hope you didn't think I was trying to attack or belittle you. You spoke of "Oneness" and that is a teaching primarily from the First United Pentecostal Church. I used to be a member of that Church. Some of my great friends have been trying to win me back to that denomination, but I chose to assemble in other Churches; more than one to be frank. ;) My goal was to unite Christians and not divide them. Unfortunately, many of them look at me as a heretic for believing in the Preterist position, though I am not a Full Preterist. I was originally a Futurist taught from childhood. Man Jack Vanimpie was my favorite speaker, and I couldn't wait to watch next weeks episode. But another minister over-heard me talking about our doom and destruction, and he simply said, "Joe? Why don't you try reading Matthew 24 and Revelation and see if you can't put yourself in the first century, then try interpreting with that in mind..." I had no idea what he was talking about! :lol: To make the story short, there was one verse that clicked with me.

Jesus said, "They will say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'!" Revelation records this same account. What does Mountain or Hill mean? Hills are a figure for governments. When Christ said they would yell to the hills to fall on them, he was saying that they were asking for help from their government to protect them from the Great Day of the Lord; the Day of Wrath! This was in reference to the coming armies upon the land of Israel and Jerusalem's destruction.....oops, went off into a tangent again. Richard I apologize about this. :D I can't help myself sometimes.

Now about the Lamp Stands, here are the passage and I'll let you decide what the two witnesses represent, with God's love and peace. ;)

Revelation 1:12-20
Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band............The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

In Revelation chapter 1, Christ was showing that the seven golden Lamp Stands represented the seven Churches of Asia....no need to list them as they are in the scripture.

Having said this, why then does John not refer to these seven Churches in Revelation chapter 11? Let's read the verse:

Revelation 11:3-5
3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies.

Verse 3 should give everyone the answer as to why John here does not reference the seven Lamp Stands, but only two. These two Lamp Stands would prophesy for 1,260 days. This is the same 1,260 days Daniel speaks of, so let's visit that passage:

Daniel 12:
4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.” 5 Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?” 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished. 8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?” 9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. 11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

I just thought I'd highlight the phrase "Sealed". Why sealed? Because the King was not yet anointed who is worthy to break these seals! :woah: But this time frame would be when the daily sacrifice was taken away. I do not have the exact date this happened, but it would occur sometime around 68AD to 69AD, when Vespasian surrounded Jerusalem, built the wall, and cut-off Jerusalem's supply; at least, this is my guess. But in the 60's, two of the seven Churches did not exist; they were both destroyed in an earth quake around 62AD, though I seem to have lost my information on which two churches these were. This is also why I support the late date of Revelation because it shows that during this time (around the early 90's AD), all seven Churches were well established and were about to go through an Empire wide persecution, some annually and some on a daily basis.

But does this answer the question? My answer as to why John did not mentioned the seven Churches (Lamp Stands) in Revelation chapter 11 is because they were not fully ready yet, or even established. Now most of them were because we know that St. Paul taught the Ephesians, and a few others. But some of the Churches were not yet in existence. So what two Churches were the primary Churches during the days of the Apostles? Look at the letter Paul writes to the Romans and notice how long that letter is (Not that it should matter). Notice also the letter of Hebrews, how it was written to the Jews prior to Jerusalem's destruction. Thus, it's my opinion that the two primary witnesses to the world worked out of Jerusalem (Peter's Babylon) and Rome (Paul's final place of ministry). That's who I believe the two witnesses / Lamp Stands were. And it's from these two witnesses did the Apostles span outwards to the outer regions of Asia Minor to establish these Churches. And Revelation chapter 11 was not dealing with that time frame. Revelation chapter 11 was dealing with the final 3 1/2 years prior to Jerusalem's destruction. Keep this one important fact in mind. Peter's primary mission was to feed the sheep in Jerusalem, and tend to the lambs, as he promised the Lord. Paul's mission was to administer to the Gentiles. Paul, Timothy, Mark, and Titus set up Churches all throughout Asia Minor. Somewhere along the line, the rest returned to Jerusalem because Paul was arrested and taken for trial. It's there that he appeals to Caesar and ends up providing us with the most of the New Testament writings, while in Rome. Rome at that time, was considered the world, just as Jerusalem was considered the world through the Jews. The destruction of both worlds was soon to come, in a spiritual and literal sense. And the Christians in Rome loved Paul very much, and in my opinion, they represented the larger of all Gentile Christians until the great persecution of Nero Caesar.

Well I hope you all count me to be at least an informative friend filled with love and hope. I do not know all these things, or even if I'm correct. But I try to rationalize these things as best as I can. I hope you know that I've come to love you all very much, and this is the best forum I've encountered yet. Thanks brother Richard for inviting me here.:tea: And I hope this answers your question Katharyn. :hug:

God bless you all!

Joe

[kathryn]

"ONE LORD, ONE SPIRIT, ONE BODY, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM"

and AMEN to that, Herr Feisty! (not yet mastered zee vild card zingy)

[TheForgiven]

Amen to that Kathryn.....Amen to that! We worship One Lord, One God...."Here O' Israel, for our Lord God is one!"

Joe

[kathryn]

Dear Joe...No..of course I don't think you tried to belittle or offend me in any shape or form! I have spent a long time reading the posts on the forum and I so appreciate the gentle, humble spirit that is resident here.
No, I am not a "UPC":D. I've been through many denominations in my walk, the last being a non-denominational one with a heavy emphasis on the present Nation of Israel in the middle east, and interest that bordered on idolatrous, of all things Jewish. Don't get me wrong...I am Jewish by birth and don't have an anti-semitic bone in my body...but as someone said on this forum(can't remember the exact words)..."Israel" is far greater than a dusty piece of real estate in the middle east. (neither can I swallow most of what Evangelical Christianity teaches about it) In short, I felt I was being called out and at present, I am living in a very remote area in Northern B.C. and Christian fellowship is rare indeed.:( As far as my understanding of "oneness"...it didn't come from anything I heard from the pulpit (at least that I can remember) I believe it began in the meditation on Jesus' prayer in Gesthemane. What is your understanding of it?
I find your comments on the two churches fascinating. How do you understand the rest of the chapter...particularily the 3 1/2 days every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial...their resurection from the dead, etc.? I am ashamed to say that it has only been in the last two years, that I have really begun to study early church history and never ceases to amaze me how many carnal teachings I had swallowed because of it. (I certainly agree with the prevailing opinion on the forum, that the majority of the events in Revelation have already happened, although I still need to study some of them in more detail, to fully grasp exactly where everone stands.) Also, do you see types and shadows of these two churches in the OT? (with the exception of the two olive trees mentioned in Zechariah) Thanks in advance for answering my questions, Joe. Blessings dear Bro...Kathryn

[TheForgiven]

I'm sorry Kathryn, I'll get back with you. I've been soooooo busy the past two days. I only had enough time for one post...God bless and see you all soon.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

Dear Joe...No..of course I don't think you tried to belittle or offend me in any shape or form! I have spent a long time reading the posts on the forum and I so appreciate the gentle, humble spirit that is resident here.

That's why I enjoy posting on here as well. Some forum's have members that are quite rude, giving no indication of light existing in their houses. But this forum has light which inspires me. And Richard has helped me out more than he knows, and although he and I are both searching for answers, I still feel that he, and others like him (to include myself) are certainly on the right track when it comes to eschatology. What inspired me to learn as much as I can about eschatology was the fact that many false teachers, who dominate the television and radio's, are spreading false predictions or ideas which are based off a long history of failed predictions; some leading to suicide, while others leading to sadness and separation from the Church. It's because of these false predictions that I felt compelled to debate with the Futurist's and even Historicist's about the mistakes they are making. And as my brother Richard said, "They need to be exposed". Praise the Lord who has exposed many false teachers such as Hal Lidnsey and Jack Vanimpie, that both have ratings which appear to be dropping sharply. Even some of the websites who promote their teachings are resorting to banning members who oppose their teaching, and this is a sign of their defeat for they are afraid of debating with teachers of the fulfilled eschatology. But you know what? We have history on our side, because our history seems to match the words of the Lord in Matthew 24, and their history seems to match the other fathers throughout all centuries, who failed in one form or fashion! God be forever praised and thanked for exposing them.


No, I am not a "UPC". I've been through many denominations in my walk, the last being a non-denominational one with a heavy emphasis on the present Nation of Israel in the middle east, and interest that bordered on idolatrous, of all things Jewish. Don't get me wrong...I am Jewish by birth and don't have an anti-semitic bone in my body...but as someone said on this forum(can't remember the exact words)..."Israel" is far greater than a dusty piece of real estate in the middle east. (neither can I swallow most of what Evangelical Christianity teaches about it) In short, I felt I was being called out and at present, I am living in a very remote area in Northern B.C. and Christian fellowship is rare indeed.

Okay, I was just checking, and it wouldn't have mattered if you were UPC or not. My only reason for asking is because a fellow UPC minister told me that I needed to refrain from the heresy of Preterism, or any form of fulfilled eschatology. I tried explaining to him my views and he basically said it was "stupid" not to expect the things happening in Israel to be fulfilled....i.e. the temple being rebuilt and the Law reestablished. And this was back in 1997 when I was told this. BEHOLD! 10 years later and not one rock or stone has been established on the former temple mount; if that's even the correct location of the original temple in the first place. The temple that stands there now is not Jewish, but foreign.

In 70AD, the temple was destroyed just as Christ predicted....rather, foretold..... Then in the late 90's AD, Emperor trajan built another temple on top of the place where the origianal once stood, and it was dedicated to him as a god, as well as the god of Jupiter. Then in the late 6th century, with the rise of the Muslims, the temple Mosque was built which even to this day is the one still standing. The Wall which the Jews mourn at is what was left over from the temple of Trajan. Perhaps that is why Jews today still mourn on that site.

Now regarding the temple, St. Barnabus, in one of his writings, speaks of this when he says,

and they who destroyed the temple, shall themselves rebuild it...."this is happening now" [his quote]

Barnabus may have been referring to the temple of Trajan. But when you read his writing a little more, you will see that he wasn't talking about the physical temple, but the temple of the Church; our bodies. Thus when he says, "They who destroyed it, shall themselves rebuild it..." he wasn't referring to the physical temple of the Jews, but the temple of God; the Church. And who was it that destroyed the temple? The Romans! And who was it that helped spread the gospels after the deaths of the Apostles? The Romans and Greeks. That is why I think Barnabus meant. Therefore, be glad that you are Jewish by flesh, but be even more glad that you are Jewish in the Spirit. For as Paul stated,

Romans 2:28-29
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and whose circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter, and whose praise is not from men, but from God.

And again,

Philippians 3:3
For we are the Circumcision who worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh--

Colossians 2:11
and in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ.

Therefore we thank God for the circumcision of hands [Jews of the flesh] that through them were the promises made and fulfilled in bringing Christ, but much more to Him who circumcised us and has made us children of God through the circumcision of our hearts and minds, through the Spirit and NOT through the letter. He did this by removing that which stood against us and nailed it to the cross. And in Him is the true Jerusalem, the city He loves, for "God is there".

And regarding Israel, I believe it was me that said, "Israel is far greater than a geographical nation filled with sand and rock...." :hug:


What is your understanding of it? I find your comments on the two churches fascinating. How do you understand the rest of the chapter...particularily the 3 1/2 days every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial...their resurection from the dead, etc.?

I do not have an answer for that my dearest friend Kathryn. But I will offer my opinion. I believe this MAY be a representation of the Church undergoing great persecution during the brutal reign of Nero Caesar. This happened prior to the height of the Jewish war, probably somewhere in the mid 60's AD. But sometime just prior to the invasion of Israel by the armies of Titus and Vespasian, Josephus recorded a great multitude that appears to have been resurrected, many seen in the skies flying high above Jerusalem in chariots of fire. Again, this is all dependant upon whether or not what Josephus wrote was true, and if it had anything to do with Revelation 11. And in my opinion, I believe it does, for this occured after the 1,260 days of their prophesying. I believe this time period represented Peter's Church in Jerusalem (Babylon) and Paul's perish in Rome (Roman Christians abiding with Jewish Christians) Again, this is my opinion and I am open to others.

I hope this answers many of your questions sister. Take care and God bless you all.

Joe

[kathryn]

Hello Joe...Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions. I can certainly see how you have arrived at your understanding of the two witnesses. (although I realize you are still studying the subject)
Can you point me to where Josephus writes of the resurrections and chariots? I have studied some of his writings, but I haven't come across the mention of this, thus far. I would be extrememly interested in reading this.
Thank you dear Brother...Kathryn

[TheForgiven]

Hello Joe...Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions. I can certainly see how you have arrived at your understanding of the two witnesses. (although I realize you are still studying the subject)
Can you point me to where Josephus writes of the resurrections and chariots? I have studied some of his writings, but I haven't come across the mention of this, thus far. I would be extrememly interested in reading this.
Thank you dear Brother...Kathryn

Here's a link to the writings of Josephus:

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/JOSEPHUS.HTM

The passage you're looking for is in Book 6 chapter 5
Entitled "War of the Jews". Here's the passage again:

3. Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star (20) resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, (21) [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner (22) [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, (23) began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.

4. Now if any one consider these things, he will find that God takes care of mankind, and by all ways possible foreshows to our race what is for their preservation; but that men perish by those miseries which they madly and voluntarily bring upon themselves; for the Jews, by demolishing the tower of Antonia, had made their temple four-square, while at the same time they had it written in their sacred oracles, "That then should their city be taken, as well as their holy house, when once their temple should become four-square." But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how," about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea. However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate, although they see it beforehand. But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure, and some of them they utterly despised, until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city and their own destruction.

[Rose]

Hi Joe :yo: Thanks for posting the writings of Josephus :) Those words sound like he was reading Revelation :rolleyes:

I've been doing some looking into who the two witnesses are also: here are some of my conclusions on Revelation 11.

What John is being shown here seems to be a symbolic overview of the witness of the Word of God. First John is ask to measure the earthly temple of God, by the mighty angel that had just told him to seal up the things that the seven thunders uttered. He is also told not to measure the outside court which is given to the Gentiles, to trod underfoot for 42 months. The measuring of the temple seems to represent that the things that God gave to man are for symbols, they are types and patterns of things that are in heaven. These two witnesses, called the two olive trees and the two candlesticks; are the same two olive trees that Zechariah saw, and was told by the angel of the Lord as John is, that these are they which stand before the Lord of the whole earth. These two witnesses have the same power of the Word of God as in the days of Pharaoh, when God turned the waters to blood and struck Egypt with plagues, also Moses called hail and fire out of heaven by the power of God’ Word, against Pharaoh and his people, because they would not heed God’s Word . Also the power that Elijah had to shut up the heavens and call down fire from heaven, was from the word of God.

These two witnesses are symbolic of the two 'tablets of the testimony' contained in the Ark of the Covenant, under the Mercy seat in the Holy of Holies. They stand as a witness of His Word before the God of all the earth. When they finish their testimony of the Word of God, which lasts 1260 days; the beast who ascends out of the bottomless pit, makes war against them, overcomes them, and kills them. Their dead bodies lie in the streets of Jerusalem, where our Lord was crucified for 3 ½ days, and people from all nations will see their bodies and not allow them to be put in graves. All the people who dwell on the earth will rejoice and give gifts to one another, because now these two prophets who’s testimony was the Word of God are dead. After 3 ½ days of celebration by the multitudes, the breath of life from God entered into them and they stood to their feet. Great fear fell on all those who saw them come to life, and then a loud voice from heaven said 'Come up here' and they ascended up to heaven in a cloud. John would have clearly remembered when Jesus was taken up into the cloud shortly before the pouring out of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

It seems these two witnesses are the testimony (the two tablets in the Ark) of the Word of God, representing Christ’s fulfilling the old and making it new, for where there is a testament there must be the death of the testator. Therefore their deaths were symbolic of the death of the 'Word made flesh', for by the death of Christ (the death of the testator) the New Testament was reborn from the Old. Christ came in the flesh under the Old Covenant, and by His death, (the death of the testator) and resurrection brought in the New Covenant. Following that, the foundation of the New was built upon the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, who’s Chief Cornerstone is Christ (as we see represented in the foundations of the New Jerusalem). Now the tabernacle of God is with men, no more does God dwell in a temple of stone made with hands, which is what John was symbolizing when he was told to measure the temple that was soon to be destroyed. Just as for New Jerusalem to come down from heaven, Old Jerusalem had to be destroyed.

So as John sees these two Witness’s ascending to heaven the whole picture is becoming complete. The Old has been measured, and found wanting, the testimony is preached ending with the death and resurrection of the testator. Simultaneously the Old is shaken with a great earthquake bringing to remembrance the great earthquake that happened after the ninth hour when Jesus cried out with a loud voice and yielded up His Spirit, and immediately the veil of the temple was torn in two symbolizing the end of the Old Covenant.

Those are just some of my thoughts on the two witnesses.

Rose

[Trumpet]

Hi Rose,

You and I seem to agree on this one. I wrote almost the same thing in the section "a mystery, what is the identity of Babylon the Great", post #30. Although I think you may have done a better job of explanation, I think we're on the same page with this one.

Don

[kathryn]

Dear Rose.....Thank you for sharing your post on the the two witnesses in Rev. 11. It is certainly the clearest explanation I have ever heard! I have always found that when God gives revelation, it is always breathtakingly simple (or maybe I am...Har!) even though it may have many depths.
Do you think it possible that there might yet be another "picture" of the two witnesses, which expresses the consumation of Christ and His Bride, or in other words The Word fully IN the Bride....or do you believe that has already happened?

[kathryn]

...and thank you Joe for the writings of Josephus! I am just going to study them now...

[TheForgiven]

So as John sees these two Witness’s ascending to heaven the whole picture is becoming complete. The Old has been measured, and found wanting, the testimony is preached ending with the death and resurrection of the testator. Simultaneously the Old is shaken with a great earthquake bringing to remembrance the great earthquake that happened after the ninth hour when Jesus cried out with a loud voice and yielded up His Spirit, and immediately the veil of the temple was torn in two symbolizing the end of the Old Covenant.

Those are just some of my thoughts on the two witnesses.

Rose

:dontknow: I'm not sure I understood you correctly Sister Rose. Are you saying that the two witnesses are the two covenants? And that this represented the transition of the two covenants? I'm kind of at a loss here. :confused2:

I'm very interested in hearing more of this.

Joe

P.S. And you're welcome Kathryn for the writings of Josephus. I hope you get some good historical knowledge....and trust me, his writings are VERY numerous...I'm still have not read them all. After too much reading, I tend to lose concentration. The words begin making no sense to me. :blah:

[Rose]

Hi Kathryn :yo:

Thanks for the question, but I'm not real clear on what you mean :confused2: could you please clarify.


Do you think it possible that there might yet be another "picture" of the two witnesses, which expresses the consumation of Christ and His Bride, or in other words The Word fully IN the Bride....or do you believe that has already happened?

Thank you

Rose

[Rose]

Hi Joe :yo:

I appreciate your asking me to clarify my understanding of the two witnesses because it gives me a chance to go over it again in my mind, and add new thoughts. I sure have been enjoying reading all your ideas and insights on Revelation.


:dontknow: I'm not sure I understood you correctly Sister Rose. Are you saying that the two witnesses are the two covenants? And that this represented the transition of the two covenants? I'm kind of at a loss here. :confused2:

Concerning the two witnesses: as with much of Revelation there are multiple levels of meaning, each one adding to and filling out the other. The first level of meaning I see with the two witnesses, is their representation of the Old Covenant. That is shown by the measuring of the temple made with hands by John, to make known that this was the type. John was also told to measure the people to show that the temple was the link between God and man; contained in the temple was the Ark of the Covenant which held the "two tablets of the testimony" the Word of God. So now we see the "two witnesses" which represent the Old Covenant, which Christ was under when He came in the flesh to earth, and only by His death (the death of the testator) could the New come in. Christ did not come to do away with the Old Covenant but to fulfill it and make it New by His death. This is what I see in the two witnesses, their prophesy is their testimony which is the Word of God, after which they are killed, then resurrected by the breath of God; followed by their ascending to heaven, and then the great earthquake happens.

So what I see as the first level of meaning in chapter 11, with the two witnesses is to recapitulate for us the type and symbol of the Old, so we can get a clearer understanding of what Christ did for us. That is what the book of Revelation is: it is the full and complete revelation of Jesus Christ! Who He is, why He came, and what He did for us.

I've noticed in the structure of Revelation, that there are chapters like 11:and 12: that are a units unto themselves, (that is they review a portion of the complete picture) but are still an integral part of the whole.

Hope that helps :)

Rose

[kathryn]

Dear Rose...I could have misunderstood what you were saying in your post, which would naturally make my question confusing. Sorry! I read it "through" my present understanding on the two witnesses theme, beginning with the first Adam and Eve, and culminating with the Last Adam and His Bride, which could cause confusion as well:D
I have always believed there was one more stage, one more "picture" of the original two witnesses(Adam and Eve) becoming One in Him, He in them (which would come after the stage you spoke of, in Rev. 11) In your post, you describe their deaths(the tablets) as "symbolic of the death of the 'Word made Flesh', for by the death of Christ (the death of the testator) and resurrection brought in the New Covenant."
It was the death of the Last Adam, Word made flesh, (which they were symbolic of) which made it possible for His Bride to be birthed in blood and water, through His side (corresponding to Eve being taken from the first Adam's side) This was the "death work" (first) of Christ, described by the first goat sacrificed for sin, but His second work is a living work, symbolized by the second goat sent into the wilderness carrying the sin of the people, which I believe describes the outworking of the first work, in His Bride. My question has always been, is there a picture or symbol of the second work, of the Word becoming Flesh(symbolic of the "witnesses") in His Bride? (as you've probably read in my first post, I have a feeling it might be found in Joseph's new name,(which was given along with his wife in marriage): Zaphnath paaneah or Treasury of the Glorious Rest. I believe the T.G.R. could be a "picture" or symbol of the "two witnesses" death, resurrection and fulfillment. (Mt. 5:18) (I was amazed to see, the day after writing of my vision of the circle/treasury, Richard's post on the E8 group and the 231 gates and the similarities in what I saw. (at least in concept anyway, not to mention that the consummation is intimately connected with "22")
My understanding is that now the Bride must "make herself ready" by dying daily(by the Holy Spirit), allowing the Word to be made "flesh" in her, and the Law (which describes the Character and Purposes of God) to be written on her heart. (she/they overcome/s the accuser by the Blood of the Lamb and the word of her/their testimony/witness (Rev. 12:11) We do this, I believe, by "casting down the vain/carnal imaginations, taking them captive to the obedience(death) of Christ (2 Cor. 10) In the process of "casting out the old Hagar/Bondwoman/carnal, the New Jerusalem/Sarah/Bride moves down, out of the Heavenly/causal realm,(where we are seated in Him) into the created realm.(which I believe describes the manifestation of the Sons of God) In other words, I believe we are, in the sanctification process, still in the "Pentecostal" age (which is a leavened feast, because it is still a "mixture" of the carnal and the Spirit) and until this process is completed, will we enter into the full consummation, or Tabernacles age of redemption. (each in their own squadron or order). All that to say...I believe there is somewhere, in scripture, a symbol of the two witnesses, not only representing, as you say, "Christ fulfilling of the old and making it new", but also the new moving into creation, those "two witnesses" who have become flesh in the heart of the Bride as she has made herself ready by "consuming the Flesh and drinking the Blood" of her Bridegroom.
We are still, as far as I know, still functioning in the "earnest" or down payment of the Spirit(correct me if I'm wrong), given at Pentecost...and until the leaven has been removed(not just the removal of the penalty, which "removal" of sins means in that context, in the book of Hebrews), we have yet to enter the fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles. I don't believe (at least in my case:( that the Law has been fully written on my heart. While it might be a done deal in the causal realm, it has yet to be worked out fully in the realm of creation. (in me at least:pray: I have often wondered, when scripture refers to the tablets being written on both sides, if this was symbolic of the "finger of God" branding or burning the Word right through the stones, to the other side, representing the baptism of fire, that turns our stony hearts to flesh.
Anyway, I have probably confused you even further, dear Sis. I am trying to describe something that still hasn't finished cooking in that pot:-)..and probably shouldn't have attempted it in the first place, until more ingredients present themselves. Chalk it up to cabin fever, several feet of snow...and the urge to communicate with someone other than moose, beavers and the odd nasty muskrat.:D

[TheForgiven]

Concerning the two witnesses: as with much of Revelation there are multiple levels of meaning, each one adding to and filling out the other. The first level of meaning I see with the two witnesses, is their representation of the Old Covenant. That is shown by the measuring of the temple made with hands by John, to make known that this was the type. John was also told to measure the people to show that the temple was the link between God and man; contained in the temple was the Ark of the Covenant which held the "two tablets of the testimony" the Word of God. So now we see the "two witnesses" which represent the Old Covenant, which Christ was under when He came in the flesh to earth, and only by His death (the death of the testator) could the New come in. Christ did not come to do away with the Old Covenant but to fulfill it and make it New by His death. This is what I see in the two witnesses, their prophesy is their testimony which is the Word of God, after which they are killed, then resurrected by the breath of God; followed by their ascending to heaven, and then the great earthquake happens.

So what I see as the first level of meaning in chapter 11, with the two witnesses is to recapitulate for us the type and symbol of the Old, so we can get a clearer understanding of what Christ did for us. That is what the book of Revelation is: it is the full and complete revelation of Jesus Christ! Who He is, why He came, and what He did for us.

I've noticed in the structure of Revelation, that there are chapters like 11:and 12: that are a units unto themselves, (that is they review a portion of the complete picture) but are still an integral part of the whole.

Hope that helps

Well Rose I think you might be on to something. I researched the two covenants and it appears other Preterist are pretty much saying the same thing. I visited the Preterist Archive to see what they're saying, and they appear to believe the two witnesses represent the two covenants of testimoy; both Old and the New. The Old Testament was a picture of what was to come, and the New Testament was the fulfillment of the Old Testament. So perhaps you are right. I hope that this will indeed solve the mystery of the two witnesses. However, as the Preterist archive admits, the fact that John sees the two being put to death for 3 1/2 days, and coming to life, thereby putting fear into the beholders of this account, does seem to portray a physical or literal fulfillment. But for now, I will continue researching this.

The connection seems to be with that of Zachariah's message of the two witnesses.


Zachariah 4:11
11 Then I answered and said to him, 'What are these two olive trees—at the right of the lampstand and at its left?' 12 And I further answered and said to him, 'What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?' 13 Then he answered me and said, 'Do you not know what these are?' And I said, 'No, my lord.' 14 So he said, 'These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.'

However, the two anointed ones matches with that of John's vision. Thus I still feel within my inner self that this must have been applicable to two particular witnesses. Most Preterist attribute the two witnesses to the Apostle James, who was killed prior to the Jewish revolt, having been thrown off the temple and beaten to death when he failed to die after his fall. The other was attributed to Peter, or possibly Paul because he was in Rome. But your ideas are certainly worth studying.

More research is still required on this topic, and I'm interested in more of your ideas on this matter. I find this very interesting. :thumb:

Joe

[Rose]

Hi All :yo:

As you all know I've been looking at the Two Witnesses in Rev. 11 as representing the "two tablet of the testimony", in doing so some interesting parallels jumped out at me. I would like to find out what others think. :pop2:

The Two Witnesses prophesy for 1260 days (31/2 years). When they finish their testimony the Beast (Rome) overcomes them and kills them. Their bodies lie in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days. All that dwell upon the earth rejoice because the Two Witnesses tormented them with their testimony. After 3 1/2 days the Spirit of life from God enters into them, and fear came upon all who saw them. A great voice from heaven tells them to "come up here", and they ascend to heaven.


Jesus was the fullness of the "two tablets of the testimony" the Word of God. His ministry lasted around 3 1/2 years at which time Rome at the demand of the chief priests and rulers of the people, crucified Him. The multitudes of people called for the blood of Jesus to be upon them and their children, because of His testimony. After 3 days in the grave, He rose from the dead and ascended to His Father in heaven.

I would very much appreciate any insights you might have :)

Rose

[TheForgiven]

Okay lets examine some clues here in the passage:


Revelation 11:
1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, 'Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.'
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, 'Come up here.' And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

What do we know based on the underlined text?

1. Outer Court trampled for 42 months
2. Two Witnesses prophesy for 1,260 days (Or 42 months)
3. Two Witnesses killed at the end of the 1,260 (Or 42 months) by a Beast

This provides us with the time frame of this event. Jesus said to the Apostles, "When you see armies surrounding Jerusalem, then know that its desolation is near...." When were the armies first surrounded around Jerusalem? Let me also point out that according to the Gospel of Luke, the "Abomination of Desolation" was not an AC entering the temple, but the Soldiers entering the Holy Mountain of the Lord, which was not lawful to do. Ezekiel 43:12 indicates this, "This is the law of the house; upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be holy. Behold this is the law of the house."

Additionally, the Gospels all speak of the Abomination of Desolation as the period right before the Great Tribultion, "For this is the time of wrath against this people so that all which has been written is fulfilled...." And when they saw the armies surrounding Jerusalem [The Abomination of Desolation], they were to get out. St. Eusebius records that the entire Jewish Church fled to Pella in Decapolis. Eusebius, in his history, reports that an oracle of the Lord directed them to flee from Jerusalem. They fled across the Jordan river to Pella. It is said by Eusebius that not one Christian was killed in the destruction of Jerusalem by A.D. 69, the Jerusalem church was gone entirely, gathered out of the tribulation.

In May A.D. 66 the first attack by Cestius Gallus was not the destruction of Jerusalem, but I believe it did signal the beginning of what is called the "great tribulation." There followed, continuous attacks of Jews upon Romans, and Romans upon Jews. Jews were killed by the thousands in Masada, so much that blood covered the entire field.

Thus, I believe the beginning of the 42 months started in May of 66AD. The actual siege of Jerusalem began by Titus during the Passover in 70AD and would be completed in April 73AD, when the rest of the Jews to be killed was completed in Masada; it began in Masada and ended in Masada. The daily sacrifice ceased in 70AD when John of Gischala (possibly the false prophet) claimed that God told him that the Temple would not be destroyed, and that He would help them defend the city from the Romans. That same day, Titus tricked many Jews by permitting them to enter into the city to participate in the sacrifices. After letting them in, he cut off all animal supplies and food, thereby ending the sacrifice, and would lead to their predicted famine, starvation, and the eating of children.

Now this defines for us the time frame of the 42 months. It was either May 66AD to mid 70AD, which was the time period of the Church abiding in Pella. Or from Nov 70AD to April 73AD.

Now Nero committed suicide on 9 June 69AD. This is important because the Beast which comes out of the Abyss is usually attributed to them. So the 42 months would have to have occured between the start of the Jewish war, until the time frame the Beast (Nero Caesar) is killed. This sets it up between May 66 AD - Jun 69 AD; not exactly 42 months, but this depends on the actual month the war began and Nero was killed. Why Nero? Because he is the one who persecutes the Church. So the question remains, if the Christians were in Pella during this time frame, how could they have been persecuted? According to a document by Suetonius, Nero Caesar began Persecution of the Roman Christians in 64AD, while other sources say he began this in 67AD. But this would be one to two years prior to the 66AD war in Jerusalem. As of now, there seems to be no way to reconsile this problem.

I'll continue a bit later, but I wanted you to know what I have so far.

Joe



So when did this happen?

[kathryn]

Good morning fellows! Rose...I didn't realize until this morning that there is a thingamagigy to let someone know you've answered a post...so I don't know if you noticed my response to your question, above Joe's post. Anyway...regardless....your last post about Jesus being the fulfillment of the two witnesses, is right on, in my opinion, for he indeed fulfilled the Law..."it" or "they"...were nailed to the cross with Him. What I have wondered(as I wrote in my last post), is there another "picture" or type of them, as they are fulfilled in the Bride. (written on Her heart)?
Joe:....I think your point about the timing is very important here. I too believe the two witnesses end up as a "people" group at some point...as I think they began as people...Adam and Eve. I believe there is a "ripening" of types here...beginning with the the first Adam and Eve (pre-fall), who have God walking "alongside" of them, to the final stage, where God is fully IN them. I still don't fully understand how the "Law" applies to them in this state. They were given dominion over the earth, so they must have walked according the the Law(which demonstrates the Character and Purposes of God)...but perhaps in was like breathing to them...an involuntary action. We know they didn't yet understand "good and evil".
Anyway...I am still waiting for understanding on that one. This is exciting!

[kathryn]

I know this sounds blasphemous...but couldn't Jesus be considered the abomination of desolation? He was an abomination to the religious Jews (can you imagine what they would have thought of His instruction to eat His flesh and drink His blood?) ....and.....didn't He leave their house "desolate"?

[kathryn]

To me, judgement is what happens when Life enters the scene. All that is not of Life is made desolate. When we are sitting on the throne(heart) of our temple, it is an "abomination" to God....When God is sitting on the throne, it is an abomination to our carnal nature. yes? no? maybe so?:)

[Rose]

Thanks for the responses Joe and Kathryn :thumb:

I've got some more food for thought..... :pop2:

As I have been walking through Revelation, I have gotten a lot of my insights from "internal matching of identities".
Example: When I identified the "Woman in the Wilderness" in Chapter 12: with the "Woman in the Wilderness" in chapter 17: things began to fall into place, concerning who the Woman was.

One thing I've always wondered about is, why different time units are used for 3 1/2 years. First we have 1260 days, then we have 42 months, then we have time, times, and half a time, and finally 3 1/2. All these being in some sense half of 7.

Now that I'm looking at chapter 11: with the "Two Witnesses", and chapter 12: with the "Woman in the Wilderness", I noticed that the Two Witnesses prophesied 1260 days, which matches the 1260 days that the Woman was protected in the wilderness. Then something went "click" in my brain and I wondered if.........possibly..............maybe........the Womans time of being protected in the wilderness could coincide with the Two Witnesses time of prophesying :confused: Maybe that is why, 1260 days are used in those two places, and no where else in Revelation :confused2: to form a link.

Just think, if the Two Witnesses represent the Word of God being given in the Person of Jesus, the Word made flesh, and the Woman "Israel", being protected at that very same time, even up until she made the "pact" with Rome to crucify our Lord; at which time she became apostate. She betrayed her Messiah, and delivered Him to the Romans. :eek:

What be your thoughts?

Rose

[TheForgiven]

Just think, if the Two Witnesses represent the Word of God being given in the Person of Jesus, the Word made flesh, and the Woman "Israel", being protected at that very same time, even up until she made the "pact" with Rome to crucify our Lord; at which time she became apostate. She betrayed her Messiah, and delivered Him to the Romans.

This would imply that the 1260 days, or 42 months, would be accomplished around the year 30AD. However, Jerusalem was not considered to be trampled during that time frame. To understand the Gentiles taking of the holy city (outer court), we must review Daniel's vision, for he speaks of the time, times, and half of times (3 1/2 years), 1,290 days, and 1335 days.


Daniel chapter 9 reads:

27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

What you are referring to Rose, is obviously the Word of God, or Christ, confirming the gospel with the Israelites for one week. This began around 28AD. In the middle of the final week (30AD), Christ was crucified, thereby taking away the sacrifice and drink-offering. The abomination that sets up the Desolation would occur nearly a decade later, when Caligula Caesar attempted to set his image in the temple and demand Jewish worship; this was probably the abomination. Or the Abomination was the Roman Soldiers surrounding the city, as Christ explained to the Apostles. Meanwhile, after upsetting the Jews enough, Caligula relented and has his image removed. But this was an external sign that the abomination has now set the stage for the Desolation to occur. Several years later, after the Jews warred with the Romans because of this issue, that would become the worste time in Jewish history leading up to the destruction in 70AD.

Now, concerning the 42 months, having the above understanding, we can better understand the 42 months:


31 And seeds shall spring up out of him, and they shall profane the sanctuary of strength, and they shall remove the perpetual sacrifice, and make the abomination desolate. 32 And the transgressors shall bring about a covenant by deceitful ways: but a people knowing their God shall prevail, and do valiantly. 33 And the intelligent of the people shall understand much: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, and by captivity, and by spoil of many days. 34 And when they are weak they shall be helped with a little help: but many shall attach themselves to them with treachery.

35 And some of them that understand shall fall, to try them as with fire, and to test them, and that they may be manifested at the time of the end, for the matter is yet for a set time.

36 And he shall do according to his will, and the king shall exalt and magnify himself against every god, and shall speak great swelling words, and shall prosper until the indignation shall be accomplished: for it is coming to an end

This to me sounds very much like Nero Caesar. For it was he who persecuted the Saints, and who also caused many to die by flame, sword, and captivity. But after the Saints were tortured, burned, or killed [Refined in the fires], the Abomination which was set up begins to take place. This leads us to chapter 12 when the final judgment begins to occur:


12:1 And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame. 3 And the wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament, and some of the many righteous as the stars for ever and ever.

This is obviously the Great Tribulation which was confirmed by the Messiah to the Apostles in Matthew 24, as well as Mark and Luke. This Tribulational period lasts for approximately 42 months, or for a time, times, and half of times.

But after hearing all this, Daniel is still confused. He then askes,
"When will be the end of the wonders which thou has mentioned? 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was over the water of the river, and he lifted up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and sware by him that lives for ever, that it should be for a time of times and half a time: when the dispersion is ended they shall know all these things.

Daniel is told that the end of these things would bring about the end of the Dispora (Dispersion). But Daniel is still confused, so he asks again,
"8 And I heard, but I understood not: and I said, O Lord, what will be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go, Daniel: for the words are closed and sealed up to the time of the end [John is told NOT to seal because the time was at hand]. 10 Many must be tested, and thoroughly whitened, and tried with fire, and sanctified; but the transgressors shall transgress: and none of the transgressors shall understand; but the wise shall understand. 11 And from the time of the removal of the perpetual sacrifice, when the abomination of desolation shall be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waits, and comes to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. 13 But go thou, and rest; for there are yet days and seasons to the fulfillment of the end; and thou shalt stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

So from the time the Daily Sacrifice was physically abolished (Not Christ's death, but actually taken away) to the end of those things (The Dispora) was 1,290 day; 30 days more than 1,260. Anyone living beyond the 1,335 days were said to be blessed because they survived the Tribulational Period.

Therefore, IMO, the 1,260 days, or time, times, and half of times (3 1/2 years) in Revelation represents the time frame explained to Daniel. The hard part is locating the correct starting point and the ending point. And I say this had to have occured between 66 to 69AD, no later although you can go earlier.

Joe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Thanks for the responses Joe and Kathryn :thumb:

I've got some more food for thought..... :pop2:

As I have been walking through Revelation, I have gotten a lot of my insights from "internal matching of identities".
Example: When I identified the "Woman in the Wilderness" in Chapter 12: with the "Woman in the Wilderness" in chapter 17: things began to fall into place, concerning who the Woman was.

One thing I've always wondered about is, why different time units are used for 3 1/2 years. First we have 1260 days, then we have 42 months, then we have time, times, and half a time, and finally 3 1/2. All these being in some sense half of 7.

Now that I'm looking at chapter 11: with the "Two Witnesses", and chapter 12: with the "Woman in the Wilderness", I noticed that the Two Witnesses prophesied 1260 days, which matches the 1260 days that the Woman was protected in the wilderness. Then something went "click" in my brain and I wondered if.........possibly..............maybe........the Womans time of being protected in the wilderness could coincide with the Two Witnesses time of prophesying :confused: Maybe that is why, 1260 days are used in those two places, and no where else in Revelation :confused2: to form a link.

What be your thoughts?

Rose
My thoughts are that this could be a very significant clue! A quick search reveals that the two distict time phrases (1260 days and 42 months) form unique links between two pairs of verses. The first pair links the two witnesses with the "feeding" of the Woman in the wilderness:

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Fed her (Israel) in the wilderness? Now that rings bells!
Deuteronomy 8:2-3 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no. 3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
This coheres perfectly with the Two Witnesses as a symbol of the Word of God. It is this kind of synergy - where more mulitple pieces effortlessly fall together when a single connection is made - that indicates when our interpretation is moving in the right direction.

The second pair is linked by the forty-two months:

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.I don't have a "big insight" on this one yet, but the connection that I underlined seems important.

Richard

[TheForgiven]

The second pair is linked by the forty-two months:

* Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
* Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

I don't have a "big insight" on this one yet, but the connection that I underlined seems important.

Now that was a great connection Richard. That gave me an idea and this is what I found....take a look:


Revelation 11:7
Now when they [Two witnesses] have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

Revelation 17:8
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth [Jerusalem] whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

I'm beginning to think that the Beast which kills the two witnesses is the same Beast that astonishes those of the earth [Or Jerusalem] because he once was, but now is not, and yet will come. Perhaps it's "When he comes again" does this Beast begin killing the Witnesses....

What do you think, and be honest... ;)

Joe

[Victor]

I don't have the time to post much of anything, but I think I should let this out. It has been on my mind for a number of years:


Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things [the parables of the Lord]: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery. [cp. Romans 7]

The above is the preface of the story of the rich man and Lazarus. It is a very simple and linear story all the way up to about verse 26.


Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

But from this point on, the simple story takes a curious turn and the conversation gets theologically loaded:


Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he [Lazarus the beggar, resurrected from the dead] may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

There are some commonalities between this account and Revelation 11. Father Abraham says that the people who give a witness through miraculous signs are not superior in terms of preaching effectivity than the Word of God itself - described in story as the Law (Moses) and the Prophets, which is the Bible's classic self-description. The witness is dual (Law/Prophets) and links to two representative witnesses (Moses and Elijah).

There are other correlated insights in the story, like the torment and the resurrection from the dead, but don't have time to write more.

This is food for thought!

:pop2:

[TheForgiven]

LOL! I'm still hungry because for some reason my friends, I understand what you are all saying, but it's still not quite showing itself to me.

The olive trees I understand to represent the anointing of the Holy Spirit. The lamp stands I clearly see as the churches, just as they are shown in Revelation chapter 1. And Jesus is the head of each lamp stand, so that is the same.

I'm still trying to determine if the two witness (olive trees and lamp stands) represent the covenant. Furthermore, we still have to explain the death and resurrection. I know that Christ died for three days and was raised, but that time frame does not fit the 42 months. That is where I'm having a problem.

:confused2:

Keep going brothers and sisters....that's the only way we can learn, and I for one am still learning. :thumb:

Joe

[Rose]

Don't worry Joe, :) I'm still working things out too! And there's plenty of food left :pop2:

I'm still trying to determine if the two witness (olive trees and lamp stands) represent the covenant. Furthermore, we still have to explain the death and resurrection. I know that Christ died for three days and was raised, but that time frame does not fit the 42 months. That is where I'm having a problem.

I think the 1260 days that the Two Witnesses prophesy, and the 42 months that the Gentiles trod underfoot the court and the city, are two different periods of time. Possibly the 42 months start after Christ is crucified, and raised from the dead? Whereas the 1260 days could be the approximately 3 1/2 years of Jesus's Ministry? Jesus came to fulfill the "Law and the Prophets", which the Two Witness's represent.

As Richard pointed out, the 42 months in chapter 11: and the 42 months in chapter 13, where the beast is given power,authority, and the seat of the Dragon seem to be happening simultaneously. And it would appear that it takes place sometime after the cross, because the Dragon has been cast down to the earth and has but a short time, so he gives power to the beast to deceive the woman who then becomes loyal to the beast.

Hope that helps......I'm still tying pieces together :D

Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Don't worry Joe, :) I'm still working things out too! And there's plenty of food left :pop2:


I think the 1260 days that the Two Witnesses prophesy, and the 42 months that the Gentiles trod underfoot the court and the city, are two different periods of time. Possibly the 42 months start after Christ is crucified, and raised from the dead? Whereas the 1260 days could be the approximately 3 1/2 years of Jesus's Ministry? Jesus came to fulfill the "Law and the Prophets", which the Two Witness's represent.

As Richard pointed out, the 42 months in chapter 11: and the 42 months in chapter 13, where the beast is given power,authority, and the seat of the Dragon seem to be happening simultaneously. And it would appear that it takes place sometime after the cross, because the Dragon has been cast down to the earth and has but a short time, so he gives power to the beast to deceive the woman who then becomes loyal to the beast.

Hope that helps......I'm still tying pieces together :D

Rose
I would add that the clue was that the two different time phrases each occur exactly twice in Revelation, and they seem to form meaningful connections between two pairs of verses. Rose's idea that they also could indicate two different time periods (each equal to 3.5) years is intriguing. I have a slight but persistent "tingle" that there is a connection between the Woman in the wilderness and the 40 years that Israel spent in the wilderness and the 40 years between the Cross in 30 AD and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.

Richard

[TheForgiven]

I think the 1260 days that the Two Witnesses prophesy, and the 42 months that the Gentiles trod underfoot the court and the city, are two different periods of time. Possibly the 42 months start after Christ is crucified, and raised from the dead? Whereas the 1260 days could be the approximately 3 1/2 years of Jesus's Ministry? Jesus came to fulfill the "Law and the Prophets", which the Two Witness's represent.

As Richard pointed out, the 42 months in chapter 11: and the 42 months in chapter 13, where the beast is given power,authority, and the seat of the Dragon seem to be happening simultaneously. And it would appear that it takes place sometime after the cross, because the Dragon has been cast down to the earth and has but a short time, so he gives power to the beast to deceive the woman who then becomes loyal to the beast.

Hope that helps......I'm still tying pieces together

I think you are right. We know that the Old Law required the testimony of two witnesses before one can be found guilty. Perhaps the two witnesses are in fact the Old and New Testament, but my mind is still not quite grasping that. Jesus used Himself, along with the Holy Spirit (Father) as His two witnesses in the gospel of John. So you might be on to something.

But the two witnesses being told to "Come up here!" is often used by Futurist's to prove the Rapture theory, which I do not accept. But if there was a rapture, I'd have to say this happened during the events Josephus describes. He mentioned a great earth quake, and awesome signs in the sky when they witnessed chariots and angels flying above the city. He also mentions the great noise they heard after the earth quake when a loud voice said, "Let us leave this place!" This may have been the Rapture or "Calling up" that Paul spoke about. And of course Paul was dead when these things happened. At any rate, I can see why Christ and the Holy Spirit could possibly represent the two witnesses, and he died and was raised to life; perhaps that is what John was talking about. As of now, I am still confused. :confused:

And we still have to resolve the 3 1/2 years, 1,260 days, and 42 month issue. The 42 months I see as the time frame when Jerusalem was surrounded and trampled, just as Christ predicted.

Joe

[Rose]

Hi Joe :yo:


I think you are right. We know that the Old Law required the testimony of two witnesses before one can be found guilty. Perhaps the two witnesses are in fact the Old and New Testament, but my mind is still not quite grasping that. Jesus used Himself, along with the Holy Spirit (Father) as His two witnesses in the gospel of John. So you might be on to something.

Instead of the Two Witness being the Old and New Covenants, I more see them as the Old: being representative of the Law and the Prophets, and the two Tablets of the Testimony. Which Jesus was the fullness of, and by His death brought in the New! :woohoo:

Rose

[kathryn]

Hello All...I am beginning to get a little confused here:confused:(nothing new:D) At some point, I thought we had all come to the conclusion, (to one degree or another) that the two tablets of the Law(witness) were symbolic of the two witnesses...and their death symbolic of the death of the Word made Flesh, Jesus. (which birthed the New covenant).
My confusion comes when we get away from their representation as simply being the Law.
(don't get me wrong...I understand fully that the new and old covenant, old and new testament, law and prophets, Elijah and Moses are all a form of "two witnesses". I do understand that there are many levels to this, but I'm no good at juggling more than one orange at a time:()
While I'm certainly not going to be dogmatic that the conclusion was correct ,in order to pursue that line of reasoning, I think, we need to establish how each of us defines the Law, in order to understand more of the two witnesses. I'm sure we are all in agreement that it was fulfilled in Christ, at the Cross...but I would be interested in knowing how you all understand how(or if?) it is still in effect today.
I see the Law, primarily, as defining the Character and Purposes of God (which were fulfilled in Christ) And of course, that they were given to show us that we could never obtain either, in our own strength.
I don't see the Law, as having passed away....therefore...if the two tablets of Law are symbolic of the two witnesess, how does this add (or subtract) from our understanding of this subject?:confused2:
While I agree with the preterist view I am curious if you believe if it's possible the sanctification process could be described in the book of Revelation as well. It is the "unveiling(sp?) of Jesus Christ"...but isn't it also the "unveiling" of Jesus Christ in the Bride ? (who is, of course, a part of Him) If that's the case...and while "it was finished" at the cross...and we ARE sanctified, we are still in the process of sanctification...and therefore, could Revelation describe a "dual" unveiling? And...if so...could there be a present and future application to the book..not in the sense of contradicting the finished work at the Cross...but a "ripening" of that finished work? If so, the death of two witnesses in Revelation 11 could describe both the death of the Word made Flesh (Jesus) and the Word made Flesh in the Bride.(which isn't two prophecies fulfilled, but another level or "ripening" of the one.) In Rev. 12:11, it describes a group, who "did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death, who have overcome the accuser by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony/witness. What is that "testimony" ? Is it the two tablets of testimony/witness, fulfilled in Christ, written on their hearts, and therefore fulfilled in them? Again...could there be a "dual" application to that one event in Rev. 11? (where the heck is that "blah blah" character...?...hee hee:D

[kathryn]

sorry Rose...we must have been writing at the same time. Didn't notice your post until after I wrote mine;)

[Rose]

Hi All, :yo:

I decided to reawaken this thread with some new insights I saw, while I was again looking at the Two Witnesses of Rev 11.

As you all know, I've been looking at the Two Witnesses as being representative of the "Two Tablets of the Testament", contained in the Ark, and their testimony is the Word of God.
The vision that John is given IMO covers the time period of Jesus's ministry on earth. He came as the "Word made flesh", and fulfilled the whole Law, that was contained in the earthly "Ark of the Testament" in the Holy of Holies.

We know who the Two Witnesses are by looking at their description in Zechariah. They are the two olive trees, and the Word of the Lord, and the two anointed ones that stand by the Lord.

Zech 4: 3-6,11,12&14 'And two olive trees by it, one upon the right [side] of the bowl, and the other upon the left [side] thereof. Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Know thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then he answered and spoke unto me, saying, This [is] the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, says the LORD of hosts. 11) Then answered I, and said unto him, What [are] these two olive trees upon the right [side] of the candlestick and upon the left [side] thereof? And I answered again, and said unto him, What two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden [oil] out of themselves?' 14) Then said he, These [are] the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.'

We see these Two Witness in Rev 11: as giving their testimony for 3 1/2 years; then they are overcome, and killed by the beast. Their bodies lie in the street of Jerusalem, which is described in very negative terms using the identifier of "where our Lord was crucified": even though it is called the Great city.

Rev 11:9-10 And they [B]of the people and kindred’s and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


Then they of the people (meaning the people Israel) and kindreds, tongues, and nations watch as their dead bodies lie in the street, and do not allow them to be put in graves. Then it goes on to say that they who dwell upon the earth (in the context of Revelation that term means the Jews) rejoice over them because they were tormented by their words. From the below verses we see that it is the chief priests, elders, and scribes who are the ones mocking Jesus because He said He was the Son of God, and that He would build the Temple again in three days.


Matt 27:20 & 25 'But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.' 25) 'Then answered all the people, and said, His blood [be] on us, and on our children.'


Matt 27 :40-41 'And saying, Thou that destroys the temple, and builds [it] in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. Likewise also the chief priests mocking [him], with the scribes and elders,'

In Rev 11 it is those who "dwell on the earth" that rejoice over the death of the Two Witnesses, because they tormented them with the testimony they held: in Matt 27 it is the chief priests, scribes, and elders who are mocking the Word of God, because of the testimony He held.......see the parallel.

After the Two Witnesses are received into heaven, the Temple of God is opened and the "Ark of the Testament" is seen. This opening of the Temple with the viewing of the 'Ark of His testament', happened after the Two Witnesses were received into heaven. If these Two Witnesses represent the Word of God, then the opening of the temple in heaven happens at the time the earthly temple’s veil is torn in two by the crucifixion of the Word of God. Then God’s dwelling place on earth is no more, and we now see into the true Temple of God in heaven.

That all I have time to for right now, I'll post more later. Hope I've given you all some food for thought. :pop2:

Rose

[TheForgiven]

Rose I still feel you are on to something, but I'm still trying to find that "BING" in my heart and brain. So I'm still looking into it. You might very well be right that the two witnesses represent the tablets of testimony. I'm just not seeing the connection with "Their dead bodies" and "taken up into heaven". Some might accuse us as being "Hyper" Preterist. But keep going for the more information I have, the more I'm able to discern. The Spirit seems to be quiet to me on this one.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

I found an interesting article that discusses the "Two Witnesses" and supports the figurative application of their meaning. Although his interpretation is symbolic, he still favors the Two Witnesses as figures of the Churches.

It's the Churches which are regarded as "Lamp Stands" that shines the light unto a dark (sinful) world. Without lamp stands, the world would not know where its going.

Here's a link: http://www.wcg.org/lit/bible/Rev/2witnesses.htm

Now my current position on this is that the Two Lamp Stands represent Churches who bear witness for Christ, and the "fire" which proceeds from their mouth is the word of God as inspired by the Holy Spirit, and who also preached unto the Jews (False Jews) in Jerusalem during the 42 months. What's giving me a hard time about this is the 42 months seem to represent the time of Jerusalem being trampled. But was this the time BEFORE the siege of Jerusalem? Or was it after the siege (walls surrounding Jerusalem) that John spoke of. If you read the entire chapter, this occurs during the 6th and 7th trumpet; the last two attacks. And it's been my opinion that the last two trumpets (6 and 7) represent Jerusalem's last days before her destruction. But during this time, the Christians were in hiding, so how could any of them be regarded as witnesses to the inhabitants of the land / earth? [i.e. Jerusalem]. One possible solution is that the unknown author of Hebrews was writing to the scattered Jews warning them to turn to Christ. Perhaps (if the witness is a single member) this is one of the witnesses. The second one would seem to be James, who also preached to the Jews about the coming destruction:


James 5
1 Come now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. 2 Your riches are corrupted and your garments motheaten. 3 Your gold and silver are cankered, and the rust of them shall be a witness against you and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.


James is apparently warning the Jews of the destruction that is about to come upon them "In these last days", thereby indicating that this destruction is just around the corner. And who was he writing to?


1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.

The only problem is it's believed he died sometime in the late 50's to early 60's AD. If he was one of the witnesses, then perhaps the 42 months represented the times of the Gentiles (Robbers from Egypt) prior to the Roman armies. That being the case, then more than likely he's not one of the witnesses....it would certainly seem so.

Joe

[Rose]

Hi Joe :yo:

I hear what your saying, Richard says the same thing :lol: It hasn't clicked for him yet either, but I still keep bouncing ideas off him :playball: .......and you too. Thanks for all the input. :D
I know this is a new concept, but the pieces just keep connecting.

Here's a couple more pieces of the puzzle that seem to be falling into place. One is the beast who overcomes and kills the Two Witnesses. If the beast is Rome, which is what I think it represents, then we know from history that Rome was ultimately responsible for killing Jesus: the Word of God. At any time Jesus could have called legions of angels to come to his aide; as with the Two Witnesses, they had the power of heaven at their command, the power of the Word of God. Neither one used their power to save their life!

The other point I would like to present is the 3 1/2 days that they lay dead in the street. In my pondering s I've wondered why 3 1/2 days and not 3? Jesus "the Word of God" was in the grave 3 days. Then it occurred to me that when Jesus appeared to the two men on the road to Emmaus, and asked them why they were sad, their answer was...

Luke 24:21 "But we trusted that it had been He which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done."

It was the third day since their Messiah had been killed and all the people, including the disciples thought that He was still dead. He who was the "Testimony of God" had been killed and was still dead. What I'm trying to say, is that it was over three days before the disciple saw Jesus, and then watched Him ascend into heaven.

Luke 24:51 "And it came to pass, while he blessed them, He was parted from them, and carried up into heaven."

So the parallel that we see is, the "Testimony of God" is killed by the beast of Rome, and for 3 1/2 days is dead or believed to be dead, until He is resurrected and ascends to heaven. It's also interesting to note that Rev.11: begins with the earthly temple being measured, and ends with the heavenly temple being opened to show the True Holy of Holies, containing the "Ark of the Covenant".

I'm still pondering the 42 months. :confused2:

I hope my popcorn isn't getting stale..... :pop2:

Rose

[TheForgiven]

We are able to see a slight connection with the 3 days of Jesus death with the 3 1/2 days of resurrection. However, it's still hard to connect those two circumstances together. The 42 months is the time that the two witnesses prophesy. After their prophesy is done, they are killed. For 3 1/2 days the people of the land (earth) celebrate and give gifts to each other. But then they are raised, causing fear on some, while causing others to fear God and worship Him.

Therefore, I can only conclude that the time frame of the Two Witnesses occurred during the 42 month siege of Jerusalem. If this is the case, then our Two Witnesses, whether literal or spiritual, has to be within that time frame. And Christ was crucified and raised more than 40 years prior to that, so to me it wouldn't fit, unless of course we can persuade people that the 42 months dealt with the time frame of the Apostles ministry AFTER his crucifixion; the last portion of the final week.

As we all know, or believe, the last 3 1/2 years of Daniel's final week occurred during the Apostles preaching to the Jews. Once the seventy sevens was completed, the gospels went to the Nations. 3 1/2 years is the same as 42 months. But was there anyone who was killed at the end of that time frame? Stephen was stoned but Acts does not record a resurrection of Stephen. And there are no other witnesses to provide us with a clue to anything.

There are some early church documents which speak of St. Peter and St. Paul appearing to Nero Caesar prior to his suicide. But these documents are regarded as frauds, so I don't put my trust in them. One such document is a writing from Joseph, the man who purchased the grave for Jesus....or was it Nicodemus....memory is beginning to fail me. At the end of this document, Paul supposedly appears to Luke and Mark, along with a Roman Sentry [for his covernsion], and that Peter's body was refused burial. Supposedly, according to the Roman Catholic Church tradition, Peter's body was finally recovered some time later and buried near the Vatican......I'd like to see proof of this.

Anyways, keep up the great work and lets see where the Lord leads us.

Joe

[Rose]

Anyways, keep up the great work and lets see where the Lord leads us.

Thanks, Joe :yo:

The one thing we must hold in mind when reading Revelation, is thats it's first purpose is the "revelation" of Jesus Christ, and not a prediction of the future: though of course it has prophetic applications. I think if we come to Revelation with that vision in mind, the book takes on a whole different meaning. If you view this letter to the churches, as revealing the mystery of the whole plan of God, through Jesus Christ.....it is a wonder to behold.

With that said: I would like to add a few more insights to Rev. 11: concerning the 42 months. The only other place in Revelation that uses the specific term 42 mo. is in Rev 13:5

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.

Referring to the time that the beast is given power to make war with the Saints, have power over kindreds, tongues, and nations, and those who dwell on the earth will worship the beast. Remembering back to Rev 11:10

"And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."

We see the ones who dwell on the earth are the ones who are rejoicing over the death of the Two Witnesses. Now we have the same "identifier" in Rev 11:10, as in Rev 13:8

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Of those who dwell upon the earth, first it is those who rejoice over the death of the Two Witnesses, and then those who worship the beast. So in tying together the 42 months from Rev 11:2, and Rev 13:5, and looking at it from the point of both referring to the same time period in the same way: I would have to place the 42 mo as starting from the time that the religious leadership of the Jews made their alliance with Rome to kill their Messiah.

I'm not sure yet how that fits into the bigger picture :confused2:

But it's as far as I've gotten.....I'll post more as it comes :D

Rose

[TheForgiven]

The one thing we must hold in mind when reading Revelation, is thats it's first purpose is the "revelation" of Jesus Christ, and not a prediction of the future: though of course it has prophetic applications.:thumb:

You and I agree and understand. :)

Joe

[bjones]

Using the shadows hermeneutic, the two witnesses are both Christ in his dual nature. I am waiting to parse out all of Revelation till I have finished a more significant portion of the OT, but my initial readings indicate that in the shadow layer, Revelation is exactly a revelation of Christ in the church.

The main theme being the Golden rule as a perfect bookend to original sin in Genesis.

The people dying are dying to self, the ones who are living are cursing God.

With each new revelation of Christ, more people die to self as the increase of His kingdom is without end.

The shadow layer never nullifies the literal layer (if there is one).

[kathryn]

Hello All...Got stuck in the Frazer canyon in that big storm that hit the northwest, and finally managed to fly out last night. My lap top didn't work...so I am just catching up on all the posts of the last 10 days.
Hi Bjones...I am not sure what the "shadow hermeneutic" is. Perhaps you could explain in more detail or recommend something I could read on the subject. In the meantime...I am grasping (I think) some of what you are saying and anxiously looking forward to hearing, in more detail, your thoughts on the subject.
On another note, were my questions on the sanctification process and the unveiling of the Bride in Revelation (in my last post) confusing? :confused: Or did I offend anyone? :( I really would like to know everyone's thoughts on the matter...as it's always been a big one(question) of mine. If I'm not expressing myself clearly, please say so....I won't be offended! Just trying to gain understanding, like everyone else:)

[TheForgiven]

The Two witnesses has still caused a problem with me, but I'm still working it. My gut instincts is telling me that it's interpretation is that of Zachariah, and is to be taken figuratively. I and still figure this to represent the two Churches; Jewish and Gentile, who were both persecuted.

I don't know, but that's certainly what it sounds like to me. Though I could be wrong.

Joe

[kathryn]

Hello All.....I was listening to a pretty facinating tape with Bonnie Gaunt and Ron Oja tonight. Ron was discussing the ark and of course my ears perked up, being that the ark held the two tablets of witness. I had no idea that two of the definitions of "ark" listed in Strongs are: "a coffin" and a "money chest". Oja referred to the Ark as being a type of Christ, in that He held the Law of God in His Heart. I looked up the gematria for Ark which is 257 and added it to the gematria of Jesus, 888, which gives us 1149= The Word of the Lord. Interesting eh what? 888 - 257 = 631= Lamb...or, the ark plus the lamb = Jesus.
As you know, I have a theory that Joseph's new name (Zaphnath paaneah) or Treasury of the Glorious Rest is a picture or type of the two witnesses (assuming the first two witnesses were Adam and Eve)...or Adam and Eve redeemed (God's image and likeness/male/female, brought back into one) and ultimately, the consumation of the Bridegroom and Bride. (the Bridegroom being the Treasury...and the Bride(of which the Sabbath is often referred to as being), the Glorious Rest) If the Ark can be defined as a type of Christ....as well as a "chest of money"...it is the first "link" I have been able to find to the Bridegroom being the Treasury(which of course, holds treasure).
Anyway...the gematria for Zaphnath paaneah or Treasury of the Glorious Rest, is 828. Subtract 257 (Ark) and you have 571= Israel. (or, Israel plus the Ark(Christ)= The Treasury of the Glorious Rest. Again...this is the first link (Israel)I've found, to a possible connection to the Glorious Rest being the Bride.
If you can bear to wade through my first post...I mentioned that the second witness in God's creation, which I believe He gave me, for the Treasury of the Glorious Rest, was the "sun" and that it was a 3-fold cord that couldn't be broken. In reading Richard's notes on the number 1149, it gives the factors as 3(three fold cord?) x 383, "383" being "the everlasting light." As I said before, I barely grasp this...and therefore I certainly don't expect anyone else to...but these weird little "co-incidences" keep popping up (and just when I'm ready to dump that pot..heh)

[kathryn]

While I know that we can't rely on gematria alone, it is interesting to note the "lamb/sacrificial" connection with the ark....in that the two witnesses, whoever/whatever they are, are killed. In Leviticus 23:19, we have two lambs, each a year old, sacrificed for a peace offering. The peace or fellowship offering was the only one in which a male or female animal could be used...and "peace" has the connotation of wholeness or completeness as the marriage of Adam and Eve. (when Adam named the animals, they all passed before him in pairs. In the "days of Noah", the people and animals were paired before they entered the ark) While Jesus fulfilled all the sacrifices, we do partake in the fellowship of His suffering. The fellowship offering of the two lambs takes place during the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost. While I do believe the Bride was brought forth at Pentecost, I don't think her consumation is possible without the process of sanctification being complete. (she must consume the flesh and drink the blood of her Bridegroom)
In the process of sanctification, we die to self...so in some respects, we could say that He is our "coffin" (ark of protection) as we do so. I still feel it is possible that the two witnesses represent Adam and Eve in various stages throughout redemption...until we have the Second Adam and His Bride and finally, the Second Adam and His wife, consumated). Just some thoughts:blah: please note...I had originally placed the fellowship offering in the Feast of Tabernacles. I meant to say The Feast of Weeks.

[walt2000]

Hello All...I know there was a brief discussion on the two witnesses in Rev.11 somewhere but I still haven't mastered the "search" option. Everytime I type in my key words, it tells me I haven't enough:confused2:And pray tell..Vat is a Vild card?:confused: Anyway...I hope you don't mind me starting a new thread. It was either that or spend another hour or so looking and it's 1:30 am here in Prince George.
The subject of the two witnesses has always facinated me and I've had a theory for years, that I've never felt I had enough scriptural keys to adequately explain. At the same time, nothing I have read has been able to adequately remove it from my mind. All this to say, I hope you don't mind if I throw out a few "thoughts" on the subject.
I have always thought that Adam and Eve could be considered as God's first two witnesses in history, and if so, could the root of the understanding of the two witnesses in Revelation, be found in their pre-fall state, in Genesis? They were "one" in a unique way we have not experienced since the Fall and as I see redemption, at least in part, it is a move back towards Oneness and the restoration of Adam and Eve's (man's) dominion over the earth (in and through the second and last Adam, Jesus Christ.)
If it is possible that there is a "two witness theme" in redemption, beginning with Adam and Eve...it is then likely that God would have hidden, within the womb of Scripture, types and shadows of our "two witnesses" which would expand as we progressed in redemption towards the ultimate fulfillment of Oneness.
While these examples(of types and shadows) are totally subjective, in that I believe the Lord gave me some revelation of them, I want to mention them because I have never been able to prove them (in reference to my understanding) as scripturally wrong...but neither,as I said, been given enough to complete the revelation. I've simply had them sitting on the back burner simmering away, waiting for more ingredients to be added (or someone to dump the pot once and for all!:D
When the idea was forming in me, that scripture may hold a progressive picture of our first "two witnesses" as they walked through redemption, I asked the Lord "if and when" they showed up in their next "stage", after the Fall. Lo and behold...immediately a picture of the two tablets of the Law popped into my head...and the words: " two tablets of witness". It is interesting to note that Jewish scholars throughout the ages have referred to the tablets as the "teomati" or twins. To quote one Jewish site:" The giving of the twins (or teomin) is referred to as a "wedding" between God and Israel. In the Song of Songs (5:2) the highest level of marriage is referred to as bride and groom being identical twins." Before I move on to the "3rd" stage, I want to mention that Adam and Eve(pre-fall) were surrounded by the wall around Eden. After the Fall, they moved outside the wall. The first two tablets of witness had no protection and were broken. The second set were placed in an Ark surrounding them. (like a womb?)
The two witnesses of Revelation 11, I believe represent them in the 3rd stage, where they have had their hearts of stone turned to "flesh" by God's "fiery" Law written on them,(hence the fire which comes out of their mouths) These two witnesses have had the full power of the double witness restored to them, having had the Law written fully on their hearts.
My understanding of what I believe may be "picture" of the fourth and final stage, developed out of a study of the second coming of Christ as being a "Joseph work". I don't know how many of you are familiar with this concept. It's too big a topic to bring up in this post, except to mention that the "dominion mandate" and the "fruitfulness mandate" which Adam and Eve were given, was eventually split between the House of Judah and the House of Joseph and it is the House of Joseph which holds the legal birthright to the name "Israel". If I am understanding the fourth and final stage correctly, these flow back together into One, in a beautiful way, as hopefully you will see. (and also links to the first witnesses in the garden as "one"and the second stage and the twin tablets of witness becoming "one" in the marriage between God and Israel.
During this time, the Lord gave me two visions which occured approx. a month apart. In no way do I feel I have a complete understanding of them, so please keep this in mind as you are reading them.
The first vision occurred repeatedly over several days. The Lord's sense of humour never fails to amaze me! I hate folding laundry, especially socks as they always lose their partner. In the vision, the Lord moved His Hand into a (one) sock, which was inside-out, grabbed the inside of the toe, and pulled the sock right-side out. I would be doing housework, or reading, or whatever...and the vision would occur, again and again, until I finally said 'enough already! What are you saying to me Lord?' (This summer, seven years after this vision, I met a woman in New Zealand who was given the identical vision..with one exception: He used what she described as a grappling hook to pull the toe through) He said to me, in response to my question: "This is redemption". (and amazingly, my friend in New Zealand was given the same interpretation)
The second vision occured while I was reading the verses about Joseph being given his wife and his new name: Zaphnath paaneah. I saw a large circle and while I couldn't "see" anything within it, I somehow knew there was something inside. I eagerly looked it up and the definition given in my Dictionary of Scripture/Proper Names by J.B. Jackson was: "The Treasury of The Glorious Rest". Again, I saw the circle and there was light emanating from it. I knew that it was somehow connected to the Treasury of the Glorious Rest.
The Treasury of the Glorious Rest, as far as I have come to understand it (which may not be too far;) is a two stage, circular picture or "type" of the great consummation, or move into Oneness of the "two". (and in doing so, it becomes a "threefold cord" I believe)
In the first stage, Christ the Bridegroom is the "Treasury"...and Adam/Eve/Man/Woman/Bride, is the Glorious Rest within. who has been "consumed" by Him. (corporately, the Bride IN Christ) I asked the Lord if He could give me a witness in His creation, to this stage, which is the placement of the Bride in Christ. (or the Glorious Rest in the Treasury) He gave me "Pi"...to which I replied: "HUH?" Not having a mathematical bone in my body, I didn't have a clue. He said (as I heard Him in my spirit)the Bride was the diameter of the circle/treasury, who must be "multiplied" (by revelation/Pi) in order to KNOW her Bridegroom/Circumferance. Note that in this stage, as there was a wall around the first two witnesses, and an arc around the second set of tablets of witnesses(after the first set were broken), there is a circular "wall" around the Bride(diameter) He showed me months later, a wonderful picture of this, when David encompassed Nabal's territory like a "wall" and Abigail goes out to meet him(as diameter), carrying sustenance, beforethey were consumated as man and wife.
In the second stage, the role is reversed (like the sock) and the Bride/Glorious Rest, now "consumes" her Bridegroom/Treasury(by consuming His flesh and blood). He then becomes her Glorious Rest and she becomes the Treasury. (Christ fully IN the Bride. 'A woman shall encompass a man?)
The witness in creation the Lord gave me for this second stage, is the Sun. There is no longer any division between them, no wall. They are One..fully consumated...powered by the molten core. (did you know core comes from the French word meaning "heart"?)
(For the mathematicians out there, Joseph's new name, Zaphnath paaneah has the gematria of 828. If this describes the circle or treasury, that makes the diameter, 264. I just know that if I understood mathematics, there are gems to plum in those two numbers. Regardless of whether this post makes any sense to you, I would be extremely interested in anything anyone might be able to tell me about the numbers. I did notice on the surface of things, the sock principal seems be described by the 828, as it is the same in both directions. (8 pulled through 2 is still 8:)
After ALL of that...I still can't, in confidence, explain who the two witnesses in Revelation are. I can't quite throw out the idea that they are literal people (company of?)simply because the stone tablets of witness become "flesh" as they are written on our hearts. Someone (I think?)mentioned in an earlier post ,that because the fire coming out of their mouths is symbolic, they were therefore probably symbolic...but Christ is literal, while the sword in His mouth is symbolic. I don't know!
I do believe the fourth stage (if I'm not just going through some weird hormonal stage..heh:D...the Treasury of the Glorious Rest...describes the transfigured saints who rule and reign with Christ.
Well...there it is fellows...As I think Richard said...much work still has to be done on Revelation 11! Kathryn

Look up witnesses

[walt2000]

Hello All...I know there was a brief discussion on the two witnesses in Rev.11 somewhere but I still haven't mastered the "search" option. Everytime I type in my key words, it tells me I haven't enough:confused2:And pray tell..Vat is a Vild card?:confused: Anyway...I hope you don't mind me starting a new thread. It was either that or spend another hour or so looking and it's 1:30 am here in Prince George.
The subject of the two witnesses has always facinated me and I've had a theory for years, that I've never felt I had enough scriptural keys to adequately explain. At the same time, nothing I have read has been able to adequately remove it from my mind. All this to say, I hope you don't mind if I throw out a few "thoughts" on the subject.
I have always thought that Adam and Eve could be considered as God's first two witnesses in history, and if so, could the root of the understanding of the two witnesses in Revelation, be found in their pre-fall state, in Genesis? They were "one" in a unique way we have not experienced since the Fall and as I see redemption, at least in part, it is a move back towards Oneness and the restoration of Adam and Eve's (man's) dominion over the earth (in and through the second and last Adam, Jesus Christ.)
If it is possible that there is a "two witness theme" in redemption, beginning with Adam and Eve...it is then likely that God would have hidden, within the womb of Scripture, types and shadows of our "two witnesses" which would expand as we progressed in redemption towards the ultimate fulfillment of Oneness.
While these examples(of types and shadows) are totally subjective, in that I believe the Lord gave me some revelation of them, I want to mention them because I have never been able to prove them (in reference to my understanding) as scripturally wrong...but neither,as I said, been given enough to complete the revelation. I've simply had them sitting on the back burner simmering away, waiting for more ingredients to be added (or someone to dump the pot once and for all!:D
When the idea was forming in me, that scripture may hold a progressive picture of our first "two witnesses" as they walked through redemption, I asked the Lord "if and when" they showed up in their next "stage", after the Fall. Lo and behold...immediately a picture of the two tablets of the Law popped into my head...and the words: " two tablets of witness". It is interesting to note that Jewish scholars throughout the ages have referred to the tablets as the "teomati" or twins. To quote one Jewish site:" The giving of the twins (or teomin) is referred to as a "wedding" between God and Israel. In the Song of Songs (5:2) the highest level of marriage is referred to as bride and groom being identical twins." Before I move on to the "3rd" stage, I want to mention that Adam and Eve(pre-fall) were surrounded by the wall around Eden. After the Fall, they moved outside the wall. The first two tablets of witness had no protection and were broken. The second set were placed in an Ark surrounding them. (like a womb?)
The two witnesses of Revelation 11, I believe represent them in the 3rd stage, where they have had their hearts of stone turned to "flesh" by God's "fiery" Law written on them,(hence the fire which comes out of their mouths) These two witnesses have had the full power of the double witness restored to them, having had the Law written fully on their hearts.
My understanding of what I believe may be "picture" of the fourth and final stage, developed out of a study of the second coming of Christ as being a "Joseph work". I don't know how many of you are familiar with this concept. It's too big a topic to bring up in this post, except to mention that the "dominion mandate" and the "fruitfulness mandate" which Adam and Eve were given, was eventually split between the House of Judah and the House of Joseph and it is the House of Joseph which holds the legal birthright to the name "Israel". If I am understanding the fourth and final stage correctly, these flow back together into One, in a beautiful way, as hopefully you will see. (and also links to the first witnesses in the garden as "one"and the second stage and the twin tablets of witness becoming "one" in the marriage between God and Israel.
During this time, the Lord gave me two visions which occured approx. a month apart. In no way do I feel I have a complete understanding of them, so please keep this in mind as you are reading them.
The first vision occurred repeatedly over several days. The Lord's sense of humour never fails to amaze me! I hate folding laundry, especially socks as they always lose their partner. In the vision, the Lord moved His Hand into a (one) sock, which was inside-out, grabbed the inside of the toe, and pulled the sock right-side out. I would be doing housework, or reading, or whatever...and the vision would occur, again and again, until I finally said 'enough already! What are you saying to me Lord?' (This summer, seven years after this vision, I met a woman in New Zealand who was given the identical vision..with one exception: He used what she described as a grappling hook to pull the toe through) He said to me, in response to my question: "This is redemption". (and amazingly, my friend in New Zealand was given the same interpretation)
The second vision occured while I was reading the verses about Joseph being given his wife and his new name: Zaphnath paaneah. I saw a large circle and while I couldn't "see" anything within it, I somehow knew there was something inside. I eagerly looked it up and the definition given in my Dictionary of Scripture/Proper Names by J.B. Jackson was: "The Treasury of The Glorious Rest". Again, I saw the circle and there was light emanating from it. I knew that it was somehow connected to the Treasury of the Glorious Rest.
The Treasury of the Glorious Rest, as far as I have come to understand it (which may not be too far;) is a two stage, circular picture or "type" of the great consummation, or move into Oneness of the "two". (and in doing so, it becomes a "threefold cord" I believe)
In the first stage, Christ the Bridegroom is the "Treasury"...and Adam/Eve/Man/Woman/Bride, is the Glorious Rest within. who has been "consumed" by Him. (corporately, the Bride IN Christ) I asked the Lord if He could give me a witness in His creation, to this stage, which is the placement of the Bride in Christ. (or the Glorious Rest in the Treasury) He gave me "Pi"...to which I replied: "HUH?" Not having a mathematical bone in my body, I didn't have a clue. He said (as I heard Him in my spirit)the Bride was the diameter of the circle/treasury, who must be "multiplied" (by revelation/Pi) in order to KNOW her Bridegroom/Circumferance. Note that in this stage, as there was a wall around the first two witnesses, and an arc around the second set of tablets of witnesses(after the first set were broken), there is a circular "wall" around the Bride(diameter) He showed me months later, a wonderful picture of this, when David encompassed Nabal's territory like a "wall" and Abigail goes out to meet him(as diameter), carrying sustenance, beforethey were consumated as man and wife.
In the second stage, the role is reversed (like the sock) and the Bride/Glorious Rest, now "consumes" her Bridegroom/Treasury(by consuming His flesh and blood). He then becomes her Glorious Rest and she becomes the Treasury. (Christ fully IN the Bride. 'A woman shall encompass a man?)
The witness in creation the Lord gave me for this second stage, is the Sun. There is no longer any division between them, no wall. They are One..fully consumated...powered by the molten core. (did you know core comes from the French word meaning "heart"?)
(For the mathematicians out there, Joseph's new name, Zaphnath paaneah has the gematria of 828. If this describes the circle or treasury, that makes the diameter, 264. I just know that if I understood mathematics, there are gems to plum in those two numbers. Regardless of whether this post makes any sense to you, I would be extremely interested in anything anyone might be able to tell me about the numbers. I did notice on the surface of things, the sock principal seems be described by the 828, as it is the same in both directions. (8 pulled through 2 is still 8:)
After ALL of that...I still can't, in confidence, explain who the two witnesses in Revelation are. I can't quite throw out the idea that they are literal people (company of?)simply because the stone tablets of witness become "flesh" as they are written on our hearts. Someone (I think?)mentioned in an earlier post ,that because the fire coming out of their mouths is symbolic, they were therefore probably symbolic...but Christ is literal, while the sword in His mouth is symbolic. I don't know!
I do believe the fourth stage (if I'm not just going through some weird hormonal stage..heh:D...the Treasury of the Glorious Rest...describes the transfigured saints who rule and reign with Christ.
Well...there it is fellows...As I think Richard said...much work still has to be done on Revelation 11! Kathryn


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[walt2000]

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[Unregistered]

You are right, the two witnesses are two actual people, Adam and Eve. Christians will reject them because they are hidden away in scripture, they will be persecuted like their Lord. They are not greater than their master. And the last shall be first.

[Adam]

You don't have to search about the two witness anymore because I found you already and I will tell you about them, we are Adam and Eve, right now I Adam am praying for the world to pour out the golden oil for the world which are the souls of mankind we are here to right our wrongs once I'm done pouring out the golden oil evil will be gone but our sinful nature will bring them back, those who stand firm and pure will go to heaven, one lie out of our mouth will separate us from our path with God. I love you all and God bless. Contact me at Adam.and.eve.prays@gmail.com