What does it mean when scripture say that the farmer will beat his plowshares into swords... and then in another scripture turns that around and says that the swords will be beaten into plowshares and to learn no more war.
Why the two different events and what's the meaning behind these ideas?
Joel 3:9-10
9Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
Micah 4:3
3And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Isaiah 2:4
4And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
I understand the reasons behind beating there swords into farming tools. That would be in a figurative way of saying that those turned their weapons (swords and spears) into tools for the harvest of souls as in working the vineyard of God, but how does the opposite in turning their farming tools into weapons. Would that be an indication after the plainting and at the time of harvest that they were to beat their tools into weapon to deliever the judgment of God. If that is so why say that they learned no more war?
Brother Les
01-03-2012, 02:34 PM
What does it mean when scripture say that the farmer will beat his plowshares into swords... and then in another scripture turns that around and says that the swords will be beaten into plowshares and to learn no more war.
Why the two different events and what's the meaning behind these ideas?
Joel 3:9-10
9Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
Micah 4:3
3And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Isaiah 2:4
4And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
I understand the reasons behind beating there swords into farming tools. That would be in a figurative way of saying that those turned their weapons (swords and spears) into tools for the harvest of souls as in working the vineyard of God, but how does the opposite in turning their farming tools into weapons. Would that be an indication after the plainting and at the time of harvest that they were to beat their tools into weapon to deliever the judgment of God. If that is so why say that they learned no more war?
Isaiah 2 is the Judgment (past) when YHWHs/Christ People did not fight against HIM anymore. The War is over and the NC is in its' fullness. God/Jesus will still Judge those outside The Covenant, but there still in no reason God/Christ to 'fight' them when they have already lost. I read a good article on this and will try to locate it for you.
Isaiah 2 is the Judgment (past) when YHWHs/Christ People did not fight against HIM anymore. The War is over and the NC is in its' fullness. God/Jesus will still Judge those outside The Covenant, but there still in no reason God/Christ to 'fight' them when they have already lost. I read a good article on this and will try to locate it for you.
Hey Les,
I never thought of it that way that they did not fight against God anymore. Rather it says that they shall not fight against nation. (nation against nation)
If you can find that article I would like to read it.
Brother Les
01-06-2012, 10:21 AM
Hey Les,
I never thought of it that way that they did not fight against God anymore. Rather it says that they shall not fight against nation. (nation against nation)
If you can find that article I would like to read it.
Who is 'they' and who is 'the nations'..? Isaiah tells us. The 'Nations' in the New Covenant, New Jerusalem Kingdom 'House of David' Peoples.
Isaiah 2
1The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
5O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.
6Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers.
7Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots:
Isaiah 5
1Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
2And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
3And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
4What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
5And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
6And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
7For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
The article is "How Do Preterists View the Kingdom of Christ" by Kurt Simmons, starting on page 6. The statement in question (swords/plowshares)is on page 14 in the sub part of named 'Learn War No More'.
http://www.fulfilledcg.com/Site/images/Issues/2011_Winter/Fulfilled-Winter-2011-web.pdf
The Kingdom
by Kurt Simmons
... continued from p. 7
Psalms 2 and 110 thus describe the reign of Christ; both extend His reign over the heathen and
Christ’s enemies; both set it at God’s right hand in heaven in precisely the same terms as
Daniel’s coronation vision. The New Testament epistles and Acts affirm that both psalms were
fulfilled in Christ’s ascension (Acts 2:34-35; 13:33; Heb
1:13; 12:2; 1 Pet 3:22). Moreover, John portrays the heavenly coronation of Christ as an
accomplished fact, drawing on the imagery and language of Daniel and the Psalms (Rev 5; 12:5), and
Jesus Himself indicates present fulfillment of Psalm 2 (Rev 2:26-27). Hence, prophecies, such as
Isaiah 9:6-7, which speak of Christ ruling upon David’s throne, looked toward His resurrection and
ascension as the means of their fulfillment, and not toward a physical kingdom located upon earth.
Learn War No More
Some will object that many (if not most) nations are in denial and rebellion of Christ’s
authority and Sonship: How does this square with imagery of a messianic kingdom in which the
nations 'beat their swords into plowshares' and learn war no more? Consider this prophecy of
Isaiah:
'And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’s house shall be
established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations
shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of
the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in
his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he
shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into
plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war any more.' (Isa 2:2-4)
Millennialists commonly rely upon this imagery in order to anticipate a time of universal
peace on earth under the Messiah. However, this misunderstands the passage.
First, it must be pointed out that Scripture nowhere foretells a time when all nations
willingly submit to Christ; just the opposite, in fact. When Psalm 110 states, 'Rule thou in
the midst of thine enemies,' it presupposes resistance to Christ’s reign. Likewise, when Psalm 2
proclaims the Son will break the nations with a rod of iron and thus urges earth’s kings and judges
to 'kiss the Son, lest he be angry and ye perish from the way' (v. 12), it indicates that Christ
governs all nations, whether they acknowledge Him or not (cf. Zech
14:16-19). Indeed, Isaiah himself says as much when he states that Christ will 'judge among
the nations and shall rebuke many peoples' (Isa 2:4). Thus, the notion of a time when the earth
experiences universal peace is mere fantasy.
Second, when Isaiah says the nations will 'learn war no more,' he speaks only of those who walk in
His paths, namely, those who obey the gospel. 'Learning
war' is the opposite of 'rest from war.' As the Jews obeyed God, He gave them rest from their
enemies, but when they disobeyed, war resulted (Judg
3:8, 11, 30; 2 Sam 7:1, 11). 'Learning war' therefore is to experience God’s chastisement and
correction; 'rest from war' is to experience His reward and favor (cf. Judg 3:1-2). Hence,
Isaiah’s imagery of the nations 'beating their swords into plowshares' applies only to those
who 'ascend' the mountain of the Lord (that is, receive the gospel), not the nations that
remain in rebellion. It is helpful to our understanding the kingdom to think in terms of
the Roman Empire. Many nations came under Roman dominion, some willingly made alliance
and were free; others were conquered and subjected to tribute. Some nations continued in
subjection to Rome; others tried to break free and rebel. So it is with the kingdom of Christ:
Some nations freely obey the gospel and own Christ as Lord, others are obstinate and rebel. Those
that obey enjoy Christ’s favor; those that do not experience His wrath.
The Coming of Christ in Wrath
Almost all prophecies that describe
Christ’s receipt of the kingdom
also describe His wrath. Just as dispensationalists mistake the nature of Christ’s kingdom, they
mistake the nature of His Second Coming, looking in both cases for a future bodily and visible
manifestation. Preterists believe that the Second Coming was spiritual and providential; they
believe that Jesus’ coming in His kingdom in power described God’s divine wrath upon the Jews and
Romans for the murder of Christ and persecution of His church. Virtually all of the time texts of
the New Testament place Jesus’ return within the lifetimes of the first disciples.
'For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall
reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here,
which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.' (Matt 16:
27-28)
We encourage the reader to consult the following passages, which represent but a few of the many
that might be cited demonstrating the first-century return of Christ: Matt 10:23; 23:36;
24:34; 26:64; John 21:22; Heb 10:37; James 5:8; Rev 1:1, 3; 22:7, 10, 12, 20. The reign of Christ
manifested in the overthrow of Jerusalem and the Roman civil wars of AD 66-70 did not expend
Christ’s wrath; they were merely its beginning. The wars and calamities that beset men and nations
down through history, even until today, represent the providential judgment of Christ as He
rules the nations above the circle of the earth. Earth’s peoples, kings and potentates should
therefore heed the warning of the Psalmist, and bow before heaven’s King:
'Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with
fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when
his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.' (Ps 2:10-12)
Conclusion
The kingdom is the dominion of Christ over earth, which He obtained at His ascension. V
Hey Les,
I'm not sure if I totally agree with Kurt Simmons, but can see how he understands the truning of the nations from war into nations of farmers. There seem to be a two fold meaning here 1) They turn to God and this causes them to war no more. 2) They not only stop warring, but turn their swords into farming tools.
It could be applied that they became farmers of God vineyard in that they themselves turned the soil and cast the seed.
But this still go back to my OP why the two different stages.[ Beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears ] I could only imagine those nations turning their plowshares into swords after the planting season was over and the riping of the harvest was at hand. In Joel 3 it is proclaimed among the nations to prepare for war to beat their plowshares into swords and assemble yourselves for God said that he would judge all the heathren around about. A cry goes out to 'put ye in the sickle for the harvest is ripe'.
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