Love Thy Neighbor as Yourself [Archive] - Bibles, Wheels, and Brains Forum

CWH

12-30-2011, 05:37 AM

heb13-13

12-30-2011, 07:43 AM

Just to find out fromthe floor their insight into thy neighbor. Who are our neighbors? What is your opinion? Is thy neighbor......
1. Everybody? If so, why is everybody our neighbor?...incuding your enemies?....
2. Those around us? Sounds more like it but how about those not around us? Are they also our neighbor?..... Are we supposed to love those around us only?
3. Those who interact with us directly or indirectly? Well ok, how about those who did not interact with us at all? Do we still love those who don't interact with us at all?
4. Those who need our help? How about those who do not need our help, are they our neighbor also?

What is the Bible's definition of thy neighbor?

Luke 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. 'Teacher,' he asked, 'what must I do to inherit eternal life?'
26 'What is written in the Law?' he replied. 'How do you read it?'

27 He answered, '‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[c]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]'

28 'You have answered correctly,' Jesus replied. 'Do this and you will live.'

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, 'And who is my neighbor?'
30 In reply Jesus said: 'A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 'Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?'

37 The expert in the law replied, 'The one who had mercy on him.'
Jesus told him, 'Go and do likewise.'

I think the answer is very clear, thy neighbor is the one who show us mercy or the one whom we show mercy to.

What is your opinion?

May God Bless us in the New Year.:pray: Happy New Year!

Interesting that they ask Jesus who their neighbor is and Jesus turned it around on them and said a neighbor is a person that shows mercy.

Luke 10:29
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

Luke 10:36
Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

Luke 10:37
And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

So, Jesus is telling us not to worry about who we think is our neighbor, meaning it is not up to us to determine who needs mercy, the only thing we need to be concerned with is do we show mercy? Do we walk in compassion and ready to show mercy on every man as God is? Man has a way of rationalizing who needs mercy or not just like 2 guys who decided not to show mercy.

And we are not supposed to turn this into legalism, either. Every spiritual principle of the heart that God shows us is always guided by the Holy Spirit in relationship with Him. Otherwise, you could easily depart from Christ and start your OWN ministry of collecting food and clothes to give to the poor thinking this will "buy" your way into heaven. The Lord has to be the Author of all good works otherwise they will burn up as wood, hay and stubble when the true motivations of the heart are revealed. We work in concert with Christ not apart from Him. Nothing and no one should cause us to depart from Christ.

There is a billionaire that is providing vaccinations for millions but recently it has been revealed that this is his way of achieving population reduction.

http://www.naturalnews.com/029911_vaccines_Bill_Gates.html

CWH

12-30-2011, 09:01 PM

Interesting that they ask Jesus who their neighbor is and Jesus turned it around on them and said a neighbor is a person that shows mercy.

Luke 10:29
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

Luke 10:36
Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

Luke 10:37
And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

So, Jesus is telling us not to worry about who we think is our neighbor, meaning it is not up to us to determine who needs mercy, the only thing we need to be concerned with is do we show mercy? Do we walk in compassion and ready to show mercy on every man as God is? Man has a way of rationalizing who needs mercy or not just like 2 guys who decided not to show mercy.

And we are not supposed to turn this into legalism, either. Every spiritual principle of the heart that God shows us is always guided by the Holy Spirit in relationship with Him. Otherwise, you could easily depart from Christ and start your OWN ministry of collecting food and clothes to give to the poor thinking this will "buy" your way into heaven. The Lord has to be the Author of all good works otherwise they will burn up as wood, hay and stubble when the true motivations of the heart are revealed. We work in concert with Christ not apart from Him. Nothing and no one should cause us to depart from Christ.

There is a billionaire that is providing vaccinations for millions but recently it has been revealed that this is his way of achieving population reduction.

http://www.naturalnews.com/029911_vaccines_Bill_Gates.html

Thanks Rick,

This thread is actually to explore the meaning of Neighbor which cannot obviously mean everybody. If so, why why would Jesus said Love thy neighbor as yourself when He would have said Love Everyone as yourself? The other issue is, Is Loving thy neighbor as yourself synonymous with Love others as yourself or Love one another or Do unto others what you want others to do unto you? I think there may be a difference.

Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

"Love one another as I have love you" :pray:

David M

02-21-2012, 07:36 AM

Here is some more food for thought

Would our neighbor be our brethren? If we are in Christ, we are his brethren and brethren to one another.

We should remind ourselves of what the dictionary defimition is; The one who we live close to or next to. Apart from the obvious physical neighbors we we could apply this to mean those who we are close to in spirit and in truth, hence our brethren in Christ.

A similar parable to that of the Good Samaritan is the following and the last line is the most important to note in the context of neighbor:

Matthew 25
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as yehave done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

I see that we should not turn away from helping anyone who has need with whom we come in contact as the story of the Good Samaritan shows, if we get flagged down by someone on the road who needs desperate help, do we stop and help or put our foot down and speed on by? This would be the modern take on the Good Samaritan the way we behave in our cars. If we see an accident ahead and the likelihood of someone needing help, do we take a detour andput a lot of distance between us and the scene of the accodent?

In times of persoanl limited resources, it is impossible to help everyone we see in need. When we have brethren who we see have need, then as the parable above would indicate, we ought to direct our resources to our brethren first.

David

CWH

08-19-2012, 05:51 AM

Love thy neighbor as thyself simply means love and help those who kindly need our help and love those who kindly help us. This is express very nicely in an article:

http://erlc.com/article/who-is-my-neighbor/

Who is my Neighbor?
By staff - Jan 21, 2010 -

But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
Luke 10:29
Context
A hallmark of Jesus’ ministry was meeting the needs of those around Him. Being a physician Luke was especially sensitive to this. In fact, he was the only gospel writer to reproduce all of Isaiah 61:1, which Jesus read when He announced the start of his ministry (Lk. 4:18). Following that announcement, Luke records a series of activities by Jesus in which He met the various spiritual (10:31-37) and physical needs of people (e.g., 4:38-44, 5:1-11, 8:22-25, 8:40-56).
Jesus did not engage in this ministry alone. Soon He sent His disciples out to meet the many needs of the people (Lk. 9:1-6, 10:1-24). The disciples returned some time later and reported the news of the success of their ministries (Lk. 10:17). Evidently, the activities of the disciples raised an important question among some people. They wondered just how far this ministry should extend. Luke answered this question by relating an encounter between Jesus and a Bible scholar. In that encounter, the scholar asked Jesus to tell him who qualified as a neighbor that he should love as himself (Lk. 10:25-37). Jesus told him the parable of the Samaritan to answer his question.
Introduction
One of many challenges Jesus faced during his ministry was helping Jews understand the real meaning of their Scriptures. Often, the Old Testament was interpreted very narrowly in order to prevent its interference in cultural norms. Jesus confronted this practice on many occasions. Matthew records a number of instances in which Jesus interpreted the real meaning of passages in the Old Testament. In His Sermon on the Mount, Jesus explained the true meaning of God’s prohibition of murder (Math 5:21-22), adultery (Matt. 5:27-30), divorce (Math 5:31-32), and many other teachings. In the current passage, Jesus explained to a Jewish Bible scholar what God meant when he told His people to “love your neighbor as yourself.” Within Jesus’ explanation, is the foundation for all human relationships, especially those between people of different races. In His parable of the Samaritan, Jesus reveals three characteristics of a person who loves his neighbor as he ought to.
I. A True Neighbor is Colorblind to those in Need
Jesus chose an extreme example to answer the scholar’s question. It is difficult to overstate the level of animosity between Jews and Samaritans in Jesus’ day. Samaritans were descendants of non-Jews who had been resettled in the area just north of Jerusalem by the Assyrians 700 years earlier (See 2 Kgs. 17:24-41). By Jesus’ time, many Samaritans were the offspring of marriages between non-Jews and Jews. The hatred ran so deep that many Jews preferred to travel east and cross the Jordan River before heading north to Galilee or south to Judah. In this way, they could avoid traveling through the region of Samaria, which lay between Judah and Galilee.
In His parable Jesus contrasted the act of compassion by a hated Samaritan and the lack of compassion exhibited by those who claimed obedience to the Law. When the man was attacked and left for dead, both the Jewish priest and Levite stayed as far from the dying man as possible by passing by “on the other side” (Lk 10:31-32). This could be compared today to crossing the road to avoid something in one’s path on the sidewalk. Most modern commentators reject the idea that the priest and Levite avoided the man because they were concerned about ritual purity. Two reasons for rejecting this explanation for their actions are: (1) they were probably going away from Jerusalem so they had finished their responsibilities at the temple and didn’t need to be as concerned about ritual purity; (2) they would only have become defiled if the man was dead or had a disease like leprosy.
In contrast, the Samaritan stopped and helped the dying man (Lk. 10:33-34). Jesus did not mention the race or nationality of the injured man. This was of no importance. What mattered was that there was an injured man lying in the path of those who had the power to help him. The Jewish religious leaders saw an obstacle to their purity, while the Samaritan saw an opportunity to help a person in need.
II. A True Neighbor has Compassion for Those in Need
Jesus said that the Samaritan “took pity” on the injured man. The word translated “took pity” is the Greek word esplanchnisthe. W. Liefeld, Luke, EBC, p. 943, observes that the word “implies a deep feeling of sympathy.” The same word is used often to describe Jesus’ response to those in need, e.g., Math 9:36, Lk. 7:13. The Samaritan responded to the man’s needs in the same way Jesus would have responded, but the priest and Levite revealed an opposite attitude by their response.
The Samaritan’s compassion led him to act. This, of course, required that he touch the dying man, something the Jewish men refused to do. He bandaged the man’s wounds and also poured oil and wine on him. J. Jeremias, The Parables of Jesus, p. 204, says, “the oil would mollify (Isa. 1:6), the wine would disinfect.”
III. A True Neighbor is Committed to Helping Those in Need
The Samaritan’s act of compassion revealed a level of commitment that bespoke the true nature of being a neighbor to others. The Samaritan inconvenienced himself or the suffering man. It would have been easier to continue on his journey (Lk. 10:33). No doubt, he had appointments and time schedules to keep, but he suspended all of these to help a person in need.
Additionally, the Samaritan sacrificed for the needs of this man. Not only did he use some of his own resources to tend to the man’s wounds, he put the man on “his own donkey” and cared for him through the night. (Lk. 10:34-35). On the next day, when it was obvious the man would need more time to recover, the Samaritan paid the innkeeper two denarii (two days’ wages) to look after him until he returned, and promised to reimburse him for any additional expenses. L. Petersen, “Money,” The New International Dictionary of the Bible, p. 669, comments that the sum of money committed by the Samaritan to aid an unknown stranger “showed how great his love for his neighbor was.”
The Samaritan did not act superficially when he met this man’s needs. He did not bandage him and prop him up by the roadside to fend for himself. He helped the man get to safety, put him up at the inn at his own expense, and intended to return to check on the man’s situation. His compassion led him to help until his help was no longer needed.

Conclusion
When the Jewish scholar asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” Jesus responded with a parable about a man who acted like a neighbor. This parable did not address directly the question posed by the scholar. Was the neighbor the man who was hurt or the Samaritan? From Jesus’ question in v. 36 and the scholar’s reply in v. 37, it is clear that the neighbor was the Samaritan. Rather than telling the scholar who was his neighbor, Jesus reversed the roles and instructed the scholar to act like a neighbor to others (Lk. 10:37). In other words, he should not ask who is his neighbor, he should see himself as a neighbor to everyone he meets. Once he becomes everyone’s neighbor, then everyone he meets will be his neighbor. C. Eerdman, The Gospel of Luke, p. 126, concluded, “Thus Jesus indicated that our neighbor is not only one who ‘lives near’ but one who needs our help, as well as one who helps our need. He demonstrated the truth that the law of love is not limited by rank or station or race or creed.”

May God Bless all those who love thy neighbor. :pray:

Richard Amiel McGough

08-19-2012, 09:22 AM

David M

08-20-2012, 04:56 AM

It is true that Jesus elevated the OT command to "love your neighbor" (meaning other Israelites) to include all people. But that only shows that the Yahweh was morally deficient when he specified "the children of your people" when he gave the command to the Israelites:

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

I do not think God is morally deficient and it is the people who think He is who are deficient of understanding. The law was given to God's chosen people and they were supposed to live by it and be examples to the nations around them, alas they were not much better than other people when it comes to following instruction and being obedient. It is wrong to say that they treated only their own people as their neighbour. What they were instructed to do and what they did are two entirely different matters and the people should be blamed if they did not do as God instructed. Any stranger coming into their land and dwelling among them were to be shown respect and treated as one of their own. This was the instruction from God.

Leviticus 29:
33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

David

Rose

08-20-2012, 11:59 AM

I do not think God is morally deficient and it is the people who think He is who are deficient of understanding. The law was given to God's chosen people and they were supposed to live by it and be examples to the nations around them, alas they were not much better than other people when it comes to following instruction and being obedient. It is wrong to say that they treated only their own people as their neighbour. What they were instructed to do and what they did are two entirely different matters and the people should be blamed if they did not do as God instructed. Any stranger coming into their land and dwelling among them were to be shown respect and treated as one of their own. This was the instruction from God.

Leviticus 29:
33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

David

Hi David,

Those verses in Leviticus only shows how contradictory the Bible is. Yahweh commanded in the laws given to the Hebrews that women be treated as property, and allowed for people to be owned as slaves...that my friend is not treating your neighbor as yourself. No one wants to be the property of another, and no one wants to be denied their human rights, yet over and over again the biblegod dictates that it be so!

Found in the same book of Leviticus a few chapters earlier, we read the way the Hebrews really "loved their neighbors as themselves" according to Yahweh's law.

Lev.25:44-45 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

Take care,
Rose

Richard Amiel McGough

08-20-2012, 12:54 PM

I do not think God is morally deficient and it is the people who think He is who are deficient of understanding. The law was given to God's chosen people and they were supposed to live by it and be examples to the nations around them, alas they were not much better than other people when it comes to following instruction and being obedient. It is wrong to say that they treated only their own people as their neighbour. What they were instructed to do and what they did are two entirely different matters and the people should be blamed if they did not do as God instructed. Any stranger coming into their land and dwelling among them were to be shown respect and treated as one of their own. This was the instruction from God.

Leviticus 29:
33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

David

Good afternoon David,

I can see why you would want to focus on that verse since it superficially seems to cohere with the teachings of Jesus about love for all people. But it completely fails in that regard. The passage that Rose cited shows that the "strangers that sojourned" amongst the Israelites were most certainly NOT treated equally as the Israelites. They could be bought as slaves and never redeemed, whereas the same law says that Israelites could be redeemed. The strangers and their children were subject to perpetual slavery with no hope of redemption. Such a law reveals nothing like "loving them as yourself."

Therefore, it is perfectly clear that the passage you cited either contradicts the other passages or does not mean what you hoped it would mean. In either case, you have not found a solution to the fact that the teachings of the OT are morally inferior to those of the NT.

All the best,

Richard

Gil

08-20-2012, 02:04 PM

David M

08-21-2012, 01:20 AM

Good afternoon David,

I can see why you would want to focus on that verse since it superficially seems to cohere with the teachings of Jesus about love for all people. But it completely fails in that regard. The passage that Rose cited shows that the "strangers that sojourned" amongst the Israelites were most certainly NOT treated equally as the Israelites. They could be bought as slaves and never redeemed, whereas the same law says that Israelites could be redeemed. The strangers and their children were subject to perpetual slavery with no hope of redemption. Such a law reveals nothing like "loving them as yourself."

Therefore, it is perfectly clear that the passage you cited either contradicts the other passages or does not mean what you hoped it would mean. In either case, you have not found a solution to the fact that the teachings of the OT are morally inferior to those of the NT.

All the best,

Richard

Hello Richard
I feel like my posts are getting ping-ponged between you and Rose, never mind I will keep on answering. The verse I quoted is the instruction from God and it says what it says and I said that the God's people did not do as they were instructed, so if the law was not kept you have to blame the people and not God.

Regarding the selling of slaves, in response to Rose, I pointed out that Hebrew men were sold as slaves the same as Hebrew women. In answer to your comment, I would like to point out that Hebrews were bought and sold as slaves and it was not jut foreigners (strangers). The stranger who sojourned (lived temporarily) among the Hebrews was to be treated as one of their own and this would not have involved buying and selling them as slaves. Foreigners who were integrated totally into the Hebrew society were possibly bought and sold as slaves the same as the Hebrews were.

The problem is not the buying and selling of slaves, but how the slaves were treated and under God's rules, the slaves were to be treated with respect as all people should respect one another. I have to keep saying it, the problem is with man and NOT God.

All the best

David

David M

08-21-2012, 01:51 AM

Hi David,

Those verses in Leviticus only shows how contradictory the Bible is. Yahweh commanded in the laws given to the Hebrews that women be treated as property, and allowed for people to be owned as slaves...that my friend is not treating your neighbor as yourself. No one wants to be the property of another, and no one wants to be denied their human rights, yet over and over again the biblegod dictates that it be so!

Found in the same book of Leviticus a few chapters earlier, we read the way the Hebrews really "loved their neighbors as themselves" according to Yahweh's law.

Lev.25:44-45 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

Hello Rose
The two verses we have quoted from Leviticus are not contradictory, but are inclusive. I just replied to Richard's post and I see my posts are getting ping-ponged between you and Richard.

Regarding the stranger who sojourns (lives temporarily) amongst the Hebrews, they were to be treated as one of their own. I have replied to Richard to say that Hebrews were bought and sold as slaves, so that slavery was not restricted to foreigners only. Foreigners who were permanent residents in the land of the Hebrews could be assimilated into the Hebrew culture. Was it better to be a slave to the Hebrews or slaves to the Egyptians? God gave His chosen people instructions regarding both slaves/servants, whether they be Hebrews or foreigners. Whilst the foreigner due to their nationality makes them different from the Hebrews, it does not mean that as people, they were not treated with respect. God often points out to His people that they had been slaves themselves in Egypt and God delivered them and therefore they were not to forget that they had been slaves and not act as the their Egyptian captors treated them.

The problem about understanding the Bible is that it all has to be taken into account and correctly balanced. You might also like to factor into the situation concerning slaves what is recorded in Leviticus 25:10 And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubilee unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.

The other nations were not subject to the same laws as the Hebrews and they would not have had to release the slaves in the year of Jubilee, so was it better to be a slave to the Hebrews than a slave to a neighboring people?

What about all the slavery that is taking place in the word today? You would be better off talking out against the slavery that is going on in the world today (under man's rule) than trying to make out God is unfair and unjust by allowing slavery to go on amongst the Hebrews.

As I keep saying, if God's people or people in general do not comply with God's instructions, you have to blame man and NOT God.

All the best,

David

Take care,
Rose

Richard Amiel McGough

08-21-2012, 08:06 AM

Hello Richard
I feel like my posts are getting ping-ponged between you and Rose, never mind I will keep on answering. The verse I quoted is the instruction from God and it says what it says and I said that the God's people did not do as they were instructed, so if the law was not kept you have to blame the people and not God.

Regarding the selling of slaves, in response to Rose, I pointed out that Hebrew men were sold as slaves the same as Hebrew women. In answer to your comment, I would like to point out that Hebrews were bought and sold as slaves and it was not jut foreigners (strangers). The stranger who sojourned (lived temporarily) among the Hebrews was to be treated as one of their own and this would not have involved buying and selling them as slaves. Foreigners who were integrated totally into the Hebrew society were possibly bought and sold as slaves the same as the Hebrews were.

The problem is not the buying and selling of slaves, but how the slaves were treated and under God's rules, the slaves were to be treated with respect as all people should respect one another. I have to keep saying it, the problem is with man and NOT God.

All the best

David

Good morning David,

You did not address the central issue that Rose and I have brought up. The Bible says that strangers could be bought and then they and all their descendents could be kept in perpetual slavery whereas the Hebrew's could not be abused in this way. Is this not a profound difference? How then could we interpret the command to "love the stranger as thyself" to be anything like a command to truly love them? You cannot permanently enslave someone and call it "love."

All the best,

Richard

Rose

08-21-2012, 12:24 PM

Hello Rose
The two verses we have quoted from Leviticus are not contradictory, but are inclusive. I just replied to Richard's post and I see my posts are getting ping-ponged between you and Richard.

Regarding the stranger who sojourns (lives temporarily) amongst the Hebrews, they were to be treated as one of their own. I have replied to Richard to say that Hebrews were bought and sold as slaves, so that slavery was not restricted to foreigners only. Foreigners who were permanent residents in the land of the Hebrews could be assimilated into the Hebrew culture. Was it better to be a slave to the Hebrews or slaves to the Egyptians? God gave His chosen people instructions regarding both slaves/servants, whether they be Hebrews or foreigners. Whilst the foreigner due to their nationality makes them different from the Hebrews, it does not mean that as people, they were not treated with respect. God often points out to His people that they had been slaves themselves in Egypt and God delivered them and therefore they were not to forget that they had been slaves and not act as the their Egyptian captors treated them.

The problem about understanding the Bible is that it all has to be taken into account and correctly balanced. You might also like to factor into the situation concerning slaves what is recorded in Leviticus 25:10 And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubilee unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.

The other nations were not subject to the same laws as the Hebrews and they would not have had to release the slaves in the year of Jubilee, so was it better to be a slave to the Hebrews than a slave to a neighboring people?

What about all the slavery that is taking place in the word today? You would be better off talking out against the slavery that is going on in the world today (under man's rule) than trying to make out God is unfair and unjust by allowing slavery to go on amongst the Hebrews.

As I keep saying, if God's people or people in general do not comply with God's instructions, you have to blame man and NOT God.

All the best,

David

Hello David,

First off the whole point of an "open forum" is that many voices can respond to one post, so I'm not sure why you're complaining about your posts being responded to "ping-ponged" by Richard and myself, or anyone else who wants to jump into the conversation.

The verse you quoted from Lev.25:10 concerning the releasing of slaves in the year of Jubilee ONLY refers to Hebrew slaves, because the following verses 44-45 explicitly say that the slaves of foreigners that live in the land are to be passed down as an inheritance FOREVER...that is by no means treating them as one of their own.
Lev.25:44-45 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession;they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

Either Yahweh is contradicting himself, or when he refers to treating others as yourself he is only referring to the Hebrew brethren. The Hebrews did not disobey God's instructions, because under the law they were allowed to not only have slaves but to pass them and their families down forever to their children. What kind of love is that?

Take care,
Rose

David M

08-22-2012, 01:14 AM

Hello David,

First off the whole point of an "open forum" is that many voices can respond to one post, so I'm not sure why you're complaining about your posts being responded to "ping-ponged" by Richard and myself, or anyone else who wants to jump into the conversation.

The verse you quoted from Lev.25:10 concerning the releasing of slaves in the year of Jubilee ONLY refers to Hebrew slaves, because the following verses 44-45 explicitly say that the slaves of foreigners that live in the land are to be passed down as an inheritance FOREVER...that is by no means treating them as one of their own.
Lev.25:44-45 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession;they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

Either Yahweh is contradicting himself, or when he refers to treating others as yourself he is only referring to the Hebrew brethren. The Hebrews did not disobey God's instructions, because under the law they were allowed to not only have slaves but to pass them and their families down forever to their children. What kind of love is that?

Take care,
Rose

Hello Rose

It is not really a complaint but I feel that I am answering twice as my replies overlap bits get picked out of my posts with hardly any replies to answers I ask.

I see we are collecting all the relevant verses to this subject and again, we have to balance what is said. We are superimposing our own modern-day thinking on past cultures and we are not in a position to ask the people of the time what they thought about the situation. We are all different and the practices you complain about that are recorded in the Bible are continuing today somewhere in the world and what we do not know about is going unreported.

Were the slaves Hebrew or foreign chained so that they could not run away? Slaves/servants were probably grateful for the fact that they were looked after. The problem is not about whether the person was a slave/servant, but how they were treated and you need to produce evidence that the Hebrews did not treat their slaves with respect. A servant as a person has Human Rights even in their capacity as a slave/servant, not that there was a court of human rights the slave/servant could go to unless they appealed to the king or the judge in the land.

Whilst God gave instructions, it was not like the Hebrews were told to be cruel to their slaves. OK, I concede that the foreign slaves might not have been released in the year of jubilee and of course this brings up another set of questions. It is obvious that a slave did not live for ever and therefore the slave could not be passed down as an inheritance for ever. However, if the slave was allowed to marry, the offspring would be brought up in the Hebrew's household and therefore the slaves offspring would be looked after when the parents died. In this case the offspring continued to work in the Hebrew's household.

There is the other situation which applied to Hebrew slaves in that if the slave did not want to be set free, they would give up all rights to be set free.
Exodus 21
2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.

The above relates to the Hebrew servant but it does not make much difference for the foreign servant and family to be looked after in the same way and treated kindly.

We all know that in any society there are rebels who do not conform to the rules, and there were those amongst the Hebrews that might not have followed the rules. We know the Hebrews did not carry out God's commands and therefore that is why I say that men have to be blamed if they do things that do not follow God's instructions.

All the best

David

David M

08-22-2012, 01:16 AM

Good morning David,

You did not address the central issue that Rose and I have brought up. The Bible says that strangers could be bought and then they and all their descendents could be kept in perpetual slavery whereas the Hebrew's could not be abused in this way. Is this not a profound difference? How then could we interpret the command to "love the stranger as thyself" to be anything like a command to truly love them? You cannot permanently enslave someone and call it "love."

All the best,

Richard

Hello Richard
I have answered this point in my response to Rose's response to me.

David

Rose

08-22-2012, 03:37 PM

Hello Rose

It is not really a complaint but I feel that I am answering twice as my replies overlap bits get picked out of my posts with hardly any replies to answers I ask.

I see we are collecting all the relevant verses to this subject and again, we have to balance what is said. We are superimposing our own modern-day thinking on past cultures and we are not in a position to ask the people of the time what they thought about the situation. We are all different and the practices you complain about that are recorded in the Bible are continuing today somewhere in the world and what we do not know about is going unreported.

Were the slaves Hebrew or foreign chained so that they could not run away? Slaves/servants were probably grateful for the fact that they were looked after. The problem is not about whether the person was a slave/servant, but how they were treated and you need to produce evidence that the Hebrews did not treat their slaves with respect. A servant as a person has Human Rights even in their capacity as a slave/servant, not that there was a court of human rights the slave/servant could go to unless they appealed to the king or the judge in the land.

Hello David,

Slaves were kept in the same manner as any slave is kept, whether it be the Hebrews who were enslaved to the Egyptians or slaves in early America. Usually if a slave tried to run away he was captured and beaten.
Exo.21:20-21 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

I'm surprised that you would say that the slaves were grateful for being taken care of. Have you never read any accounts of former slaves in this country, no one is ever grateful to be a slave. Would you want your freedom taken away and to be owned by another human no matter how well they treated you? I think not.

Whilst God gave instructions, it was not like the Hebrews were told to be cruel to their slaves. OK, I concede that the foreign slaves might not have been released in the year of jubilee and of course this brings up another set of questions. It is obvious that a slave did not live for ever and therefore the slave could not be passed down as an inheritance for ever. However, if the slave was allowed to marry, the offspring would be brought up in the Hebrew's household and therefore the slaves offspring would be looked after when the parents died. In this case the offspring continued to work in the Hebrew's household.

The passage says that if a slave bore children in the land then those children could be passed down as an inheritance, the cycle would continue as long as children were born to parents who were slaves which could continue forever. In this manner children would be born into perpetual bondage, preciously what God railed against the Egyptians for doing to the Hebrews.
Lev.25:44-45 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession;they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

There is the other situation which applied to Hebrew slaves in that if the slave did not want to be set free, they would give up all rights to be set free.
Exodus 21
2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.

The above relates to the Hebrew servant but it does not make much difference for the foreign servant and family to be looked after in the same way and treated kindly.

That's terrible and certainly not loving, to make an individual give up his family in order to be free. His children were created from his body and his wife's, they belong to him not his master. What right does anyone have owning another human being, and what kind of god would allow the Hebrews to participate in such hard-hearted behavior?

Are you telling me that it's okay to own another human being as long as you treat them kindly? What kind of nonsense is that?

We all know that in any society there are rebels who do not conform to the rules, and there were those amongst the Hebrews that might not have followed the rules. We know the Hebrews did not carry out God's commands and therefore that is why I say that men have to be blamed if they do things that do not follow God's instructions.

All the best

David

You still have not addressed the contradiction where on one hand the Hebrews are told by God to love their neighbors as themselves, and on the other hand they are told that they can own other human beings and their offspring forever! What kind of love is that?

What instructions were the Hebrews suppose to follow, loving their neighbors or owning them? God clearly instructed the Hebrews that they could own slaves and their children in perpetuity.

Take care,
Rose

David M

08-23-2012, 01:48 AM

Hello David,

Slaves were kept in the same manner as any slave is kept, whether it be the Hebrews who were enslaved to the Egyptians or slaves in early America. Usually if a slave tried to run away he was captured and beaten.
Exo.21:20-21 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

I'm surprised that you would say that the slaves were grateful for being taken care of. Have you never read any accounts of former slaves in this country, no one is ever grateful to be a slave. Would you want your freedom taken away and to be owned by another human no matter how well they treated you? I think not.

Hello Rose
We have lots of examples to make our separate points and so both are true. The problem lies with human masters. A God-fearing master who loves his neighbor as himself can have servants (slaves) and treat them with respect. These types of masters will be in the minority, but this is the example set for all to follow. Once again, the problem lies with man and if slaves are treated inhumanely then that is the route cause that must be addressed.
The ideal world will not have masters and slaves, but we are not living in an ideal world, because of the problems humans have brought on themselves.

The passage says that if a slave bore children in the land then those children could be passed down as an inheritance, the cycle would continue as long as children were born to parents who were slaves which could continue forever. In this manner children would be born into perpetual bondage, preciously what God railed against the Egyptians for doing to the Hebrews.
Lev.25:44-45 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession;they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

That's terrible and certainly not loving, to make an individual give up his family in order to be free. His children were created from his body and his wife's, they belong to him not his master. What right does anyone have owning another human being, and what kind of god would allow the Hebrews to participate in such hard-hearted behavior?

Are you telling me that it's okay to own another human being as long as you treat them kindly? What kind of nonsense is that?
When a master has provided for a man's family for years whilst as his slave, then the slave has a debt to the master. If the slave could pay off the debt, then the argument might be different. The male slave clearly has a choice and he is not intentionally being made to give up his family. Freedom is bought for a price. Believers have been freed from the penalty of sin and death by the sacrifice of Jesus (who paid the price). It is a price we cannot afford ourselves, and Jesus has paid the price for us.

The ideal situation would have been not to have had slaves (servants), but that was the system of the time. God introduced laws to make masters look after their servants and treat them as themselves within the context of a master-servant relationship. In this sense, the carrying out of that command cannot apply to every situation for then all slaves/servants could claim their freedom and there would be no servants, so what do you do with those who want to have employment as a slave/servant? Working 9 - 5 in this present age in some cases is a form of slavery and the sweat-shops are examples of this.

God gave instructions concerning master and slaves and this was to deal with a culture and society in which masters and slaves were the accepted norm. This is not the society that will exist in God's Kingdom, so whatever our objection to the way God dealt with the problem, the blame is with man and not God. God is working to change that in future and all the problems we are discussing now will be taken away once Jesus hands back the Kingdom to his Heavenly Father.

You still have not addressed the contradiction where on one hand the Hebrews are told by God to love their neighbors as themselves, and on the other hand they are told that they can own other human beings and their offspring forever! What kind of love is that?

What instructions were the Hebrews suppose to follow, loving their neighbors or owning them? God clearly instructed the Hebrews that they could own slaves and their children in perpetuity.

It is a contradiction and I have explained this as a contradiction that must exist as long as there are masters and servants/slaves. Abolish every situation of a master/slave relationship in the world and then apply the "love thy neighbor as thyself" without the restriction of a slave's freedom. So long as there are masters and slaves, then that rule cannot apply to every possible circumstance otherwise an apparent contradiction must exist. This does not prevent those masters who are God-fearing exercising justice and fairness and "loving thy neighbor as thyself" in the context of the basic rules of a master/servant relationship.

It is the same today except that we have written contracts of employment. Since we are paid a weekly/monthly salary, we are paid for our time and we owe our earthly masters nothing, so whenever we want freedom from our jobs, we simply give our notice and go off and seek further employment (slavery). We enslave ourselves within our society. For example, we enslave ourselves to our mortgages if we want to have "restricted freedom" to own a home. Pay the mortgage payments or else forfeit your home. Work for an employer to earn the money to pay the mortgage payments. Are we free to live in this society the way we want to? We are not free to live as we choose; as dictated by Health and Safety laws.

Man's world is full of contradictions and only when God's kingdom is established on earth will all contradictions be taken away.

All the best,

David

Rose

08-23-2012, 03:09 PM

Hello Rose
We have lots of examples to make our separate points and so both are true. The problem lies with human masters. A God-fearing master who loves his neighbor as himself can have servants (slaves) and treat them with respect. These types of masters will be in the minority, but this is the example set for all to follow. Once again, the problem lies with man and if slaves are treated inhumanely then that is the route cause that must be addressed.
The ideal world will not have masters and slaves, but we are not living in an ideal world, because of the problems humans have brought on themselves.

Hello David,

There is no way a man can love his neighbor as himself while owning his neighbor as a slave! A person cannot have full respect for another human if he owns him.Given a choice no one wants to loose their freedom and be the slave of another no matter how kind a master might be, because if a master was truly that compassionate he would not have slaves in the first place, but rather have hired servants instead.

When a master has provided for a man's family for years whilst as his slave, then the slave has a debt to the master. If the slave could pay off the debt, then the argument might be different. The male slave clearly has a choice and he is not intentionally being made to give up his family. Freedom is bought for a price. Believers have been freed from the penalty of sin and death by the sacrifice of Jesus (who paid the price). It is a price we cannot afford ourselves, and Jesus has paid the price for us.

When a master buys a person and owns him/her as a slave he has taken away all that persons rights and ability to care for himself or his family, so the slave does not owe a debt to the master, but rather the master owes a debt to the slave for all the time that slave has served the master with no pay or freedom. Why are you trying to defend the master, when it is the master who owns the slave that is clearly in the wrong. It is always wrong to own another person!

The ideal situation would have been not to have had slaves (servants), but that was the system of the time. God introduced laws to make masters look after their servants and treat them as themselves within the context of a master-servant relationship. In this sense, the carrying out of that command cannot apply to every situation for then all slaves/servants could claim their freedom and there would be no servants, so what do you do with those who want to have employment as a slave/servant? Working 9 - 5 in this present age in some cases is a form of slavery and the sweat-shops are examples of this.

God gave instructions concerning master and slaves and this was to deal with a culture and society in which masters and slaves were the accepted norm. This is not the society that will exist in God's Kingdom, so whatever our objection to the way God dealt with the problem, the blame is with man and not God. God is working to change that in future and all the problems we are discussing now will be taken away once Jesus hands back the Kingdom to his Heavenly Father.

If you believe the Bible is the word of god, then you must assign responsibility to the biblegod for all the laws contained in it. God is the one who allowed the Hebrews to own slaves and treat women as property, and he was the one who gave the laws concerning how women and slaves were to be treated...which most certainly did not include giving them equal human rights. All inequality contained in Biblical laws lie solely at the feet of your biblegod, he is the one who must take full responsibility for all human rights violations contained therein, if you believe that god truly is the author of the Bible.

It is a contradiction and I have explained this as a contradiction that must exist as long as there are masters and servants/slaves. Abolish every situation of a master/slave relationship in the world and then apply the "love thy neighbor as thyself" without the restriction of a slave's freedom. So long as there are masters and slaves, then that rule cannot apply to every possible circumstance otherwise an apparent contradiction must exist. This does not prevent those masters who are God-fearing exercising justice and fairness and "loving thy neighbor as thyself" in the context of the basic rules of a master/servant relationship.

It is the same today except that we have written contracts of employment. Since we are paid a weekly/monthly salary, we are paid for our time and we owe our earthly masters nothing, so whenever we want freedom from our jobs, we simply give our notice and go off and seek further employment (slavery). We enslave ourselves within our society. For example, we enslave ourselves to our mortgages if we want to have "restricted freedom" to own a home. Pay the mortgage payments or else forfeit your home. Work for an employer to earn the money to pay the mortgage payments. Are we free to live in this society the way we want to? We are not free to live as we choose; as dictated by Health and Safety laws.

Man's world is full of contradictions and only when God's kingdom is established on earth will all contradictions be taken away.

All the best,

David

Are you trying to compare slavery with employment contracts? How can you be so insensitive? No one with an ounce of compassion for human equality and freedom would ever try and justify slavery, or make it seem equivalent to employment. Owning another human being is ALWAYS, Always, always WRONG!

You still have not addressed the contradiction of God commanding on one hand to treat your neighbors as yourself and on the other hand allowing the Hebrews to own slaves in perpetuity.

Take care,
Rose

David M

08-24-2012, 03:57 AM

You still have not addressed the contradiction of God commanding on one hand to treat your neighbors as yourself and on the other hand allowing the Hebrews to own slaves in perpetuity.

Hello Rose
I think this thread has run its course as far as I am concerned. I have answered your question, but you have failed to recognize the answer. Your expression "in perpetuity" cannot apply to God's chosen people regarding the owing of slaves. The word "forever" as used in the verses quoted from Leviticus cannot mean for eternity. In God's plan things will change and there will be no slavery of any kin in God's Kingdom. The Hebrews/Israelites have not continually lasted as a nation and any slaves as an inheritance would have died out.

Foreign slaves would most likely have come from reprobate nations and there is less likelihood that a foreign slave would conform to the Hebrew way of worship. In dealing with this subject, all these factors have to be taken into account.

At the heart of all these problems is man's motivation. When a person's heart is examined God knows whether that person is acceptable to Him or not. In dealing with man-made problems in the Bible, it would be good if we could know the heart of each person in order to examine their motives. Sometimes the motives are plain to see and at other times we do not know what was in the person's heart; only God' knows and that is why His solution to the problem is best. God's solution for the earth is the only solution that will work and man has proved in the last 6,000 years that he is incapable of ruling himself. God is working out His plan and solution to the problems caused by man and whatever we think will not change God's plan.

Maybe the perfect master/slave relationship can be likened to a marriage. No-one owns another person. Under man's law a person can own another person. When we are united as in marriage the two people function as one. Loving thy neighbour must take place in this type of partnerships or else it is doomed to fail.

In a perfect world where everyone obeys the commands of God, this would not give rise to the problems we are considering. And that is the point; men and women have been disobedient to God from the very beginning and God has had to work around that problem. Unless God is merciful and overlooks our many small acts of disobedience, there would be no hope for anyone.

Rid the world or disobedience to God's commands and then you can have a perfect world.

All the best,

David

Rose

08-24-2012, 11:34 AM

Hello Rose
I think this thread has run its course as far as I am concerned. I have answered your question, but you have failed to recognize the answer. Your expression "in perpetuity" cannot apply to God's chosen people regarding the owing of slaves. The word "forever" as used in the verses quoted from Leviticus cannot mean for eternity. In God's plan things will change and there will be no slavery of any kin in God's Kingdom. The Hebrews/Israelites have not continually lasted as a nation and any slaves as an inheritance would have died out.

Foreign slaves would most likely have come from reprobate nations and there is less likelihood that a foreign slave would conform to the Hebrew way of worship. In dealing with this subject, all these factors have to be taken into account.

At the heart of all these problems is man's motivation. When a person's heart is examined God knows whether that person is acceptable to Him or not. In dealing with man-made problems in the Bible, it would be good if we could know the heart of each person in order to examine their motives. Sometimes the motives are plain to see and at other times we do not know what was in the person's heart; only God' knows and that is why His solution to the problem is best. God's solution for the earth is the only solution that will work and man has proved in the last 6,000 years that he is incapable of ruling himself. God is working out His plan and solution to the problems caused by man and whatever we think will not change God's plan.

Maybe the perfect master/slave relationship can be likened to a marriage. No-one owns another person. Under man's law a person can own another person. When we are united as in marriage the two people function as one. Loving thy neighbour must take place in this type of partnerships or else it is doomed to fail.

In a perfect world where everyone obeys the commands of God, this would not give rise to the problems we are considering. And that is the point; men and women have been disobedient to God from the very beginning and God has had to work around that problem. Unless God is merciful and overlooks our many small acts of disobedience, there would be no hope for anyone.

Rid the world or disobedience to God's commands and then you can have a perfect world.

All the best,

David

Hello David,

As usual you have handed me a bag full of excuses and justifications for Yahweh's immoral and contradictory behavior. If mankind obeyed God's laws and commands perfectly women would still be treated as property, and owning slaves would be legal. I don't know about you, but in my book that is way far from perfect, so every opportunity that is afforded me I am going to speak out about all the human rights violations commanded by Yahweh in the Bible. It's time to preach what the Bible really teaches...the bad along with the good.

Take care,
Rose

Richard Amiel McGough

08-24-2012, 12:00 PM

Hello Rose
I think this thread has run its course as far as I am concerned. I have answered your question, but you have failed to recognize the answer. Your expression "in perpetuity" cannot apply to God's chosen people regarding the owing of slaves. The word "forever" as used in the verses quoted from Leviticus cannot mean for eternity. In God's plan things will change and there will be no slavery of any kin in God's Kingdom. The Hebrews/Israelites have not continually lasted as a nation and any slaves as an inheritance would have died out.

Good afternoon David,

I don't know how you can think that you have answered the questions raised in this thread. The simple fact is that the BIBLE says that Israelites could buy slaves from amongst the "strangers" that dwelt amongst them, and keep both them and their descendents in perpetual slavery forever. This is clearly a moral abomination inscribed forever in the Bible. Your attempt to confuse the issue by quibbling over the meaning of "forever" only reveals how the Bible corrupts the minds and morals of those who believe it is the "Word of God." How is it possible that you don't recognize this?

At the heart of all these problems is man's motivation. When a person's heart is examined God knows whether that person is acceptable to Him or not. In dealing with man-made problems in the Bible, it would be good if we could know the heart of each person in order to examine their motives. Sometimes the motives are plain to see and at other times we do not know what was in the person's heart; only God' knows and that is why His solution to the problem is best. God's solution for the earth is the only solution that will work and man has proved in the last 6,000 years that he is incapable of ruling himself. God is working out His plan and solution to the problems caused by man and whatever we think will not change God's plan.

No person with a truly good heart would desire to obey God's command to keep whole generations of people in perpetual slavery. The problem is not with humans but with God who endorsed slavery, genocide, and oppression of women. The longer we talk on this issue, the more evident it becomes that the problem is with God, not humans. Modern morality is vastly superior to that taught in the Bible.

Maybe the perfect master/slave relationship can be likened to a marriage. No-one owns another person. Under man's law a person can own another person. When we are united as in marriage the two people function as one. Loving thy neighbour must take place in this type of partnerships or else it is doomed to fail.

Slavery = Marriage? I can't imagine a worse analogy. :doh:

There is not one word in the Old Testament that teaches anyone to "love thy neighbor" in the sense Christ intended. The two verses you quoted to support that idea have both been exposed as teaching only Israelites to love their Israelite neighbors. The "strangers" were treated different.

In a perfect world where everyone obeys the commands of God, this would not give rise to the problems we are considering. And that is the point; men and women have been disobedient to God from the very beginning and God has had to work around that problem. Unless God is merciful and overlooks our many small acts of disobedience, there would be no hope for anyone.

Rid the world or disobedience to God's commands and then you can have a perfect world.

All the best,

David
If everyone obeyed the commands of God, this planet would be much worse than it already is.

All the best,

Richard

Rose

08-24-2012, 06:25 PM

Hello Rose
In a perfect world where everyone obeys the commands of God, this would not give rise to the problems we are considering. And that is the point; men and women have been disobedient to God from the very beginning and God has had to work around that problem. Unless God is merciful and overlooks our many small acts of disobedience, there would be no hope for anyone.

Rid the world or disobedience to God's commands and then you can have a perfect world.

All the best,

David

Hello David,

If the commands of God contained in the Old Testament were obeyed today, we would have women stoned for not being virgins on their wedding day, people would be stoned for adultery, not keeping the Sabbath, picking up sticks on the Sabbath, and worshiping others gods besides Yahweh...women would still be considered property and it would be legal to own slaves, and on and on the list goes. I'm sure glad the founders of this country decided on separation of church and state.

Take care,
Rose

CWH

08-24-2012, 08:02 PM

Hello David,

If the commands of God contained in the Old Testament were obeyed today, we would have women stoned for not being virgins on their wedding day, people would be stoned for adultery, not keeping the Sabbath, picking up sticks on the Sabbath, and worshiping others gods besides Yahweh...women would still be considered property and it would be legal to own slaves, and on and on the list goes. I'm sure glad the founders of this country decided on separation of church and state.

Take care,
Rose

Doesn't that shows the mercifulness of God? If God is very strict with His commandments, hardly any man or woman will be alive today taking into consideration the number of people who kept the sabbath, the number of people who committed adultery, the number of people who stole or covet, the number of people who respected their parents, the number of people who do love God etc. Even Jesus who always did the will of His Father in heaven violated some of His commandments such as picking wheat on the Sabbath because He is the Lord of the Sabbath is just one example, the forgiving of the adulteress is another. Just as there are exceptions to rules, there are exceptions to violation of God's commandments. There are also "case by case" exceptions. This shows how merciful God is. But that does not mean we can ignore all of God's commandments as after all merciful God is not strict with His commandments. Please keep in mind that one day we will have to account what we did on earth as stated in Revelation on judgement day (including why we broke his commandments). Merciful God is not strict with His commandments is so that people can have numerous chance to repent and make good his repentance and to learn from the mistakes. His commandments is an instructional guide for us to to do good so that we can be righteous enough to go into his kingdom of heaven and it all sums up to love God with all your heart, soul and might and to love your neighbor as yourself. Now do these and you are not far from the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 12:
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[f] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[g] There is no commandment greater than these.”
32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”

Thank you Merciful God.:pray:

David M

08-25-2012, 02:31 AM

David M

08-25-2012, 03:18 AM

If everyone obeyed the commands of God, this planet would be much worse than it already is.

Hello Richard

It cannot be worse than a society in which no rules apply, which is what Rose wants or else a world defined by Rose's rules which means discarding all rules set by God. At least, we might agree that the world is bad at present and I see the situation getting worse;and no chance of it getting better under man's rule. God has warned us of this and of the "signs of the times" coming, but you will not agree with me that we are living in the last days of man's rule.

I shudder to think of the evil society that will exist (much worse than it is today) if none of God's rules are obeyed. The pre-Flood era told us; that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart (man) was only evil continually. It is the same as; everyone doing that which is right in their own eyes when that which is right is in fact evil in the sight or God and about which many people in today's society would regard that is was morally corrupt society. In that way, this society might not be as corrupt as it was pre-Flood, but it is getting that way and as predicted; And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. but as it was in the days of Noah, no-one listened to his message, which is why they did not escape and that is what is going to happen again. God will destroy a large part of the nations that go to war against Israel. The world is being destroyed by man and this time, it will be God who saves man from destroying himself completely. God's punishment will come upon man and the nations again, but this will not result in God wiping out the whole of civilization as He did in the time of the Great Flood.

I am done with this subject; I have answered your questions and those of Rose, but perhaps not in the way you wanted me to state the answer in order to conform to your way of thinking. It is like scripture, the answers are there, but if you look for the answer in the wrong way, you will always stay blind (in the spiritual sense) to God's word.

All the best,

I will meet up with you in another thread.

David

CWH

08-25-2012, 04:53 AM

Doesn't that shows the mercifulness of God? If God is very strict with His commandments, hardly any man or woman will be alive today taking into consideration the number of people who kept the sabbath, the number of people who committed adultery, the number of people who stole or covet, the number of people who respected their parents, the number of people who do love God etc. Even Jesus who always did the will of His Father in heaven violated some of His commandments such as picking wheat on the Sabbath because He is the Lord of the Sabbath is just one example, the forgiving of the adulteress is another. Just as there are exceptions to rules, there are exceptions to violation of God's commandments. There are also "case by case" exceptions. This shows how merciful God is. But that does not mean we can ignore all of God's commandments as after all merciful God is not strict with His commandments. Please keep in mind that one day we will have to account what we did on earth as stated in Revelation on judgement day (including why we broke his commandments). Merciful God is not strict with His commandments is so that people can have numerous chance to repent and make good his repentance and to learn from the mistakes. His commandments is an instructional guide for us to to do good so that we can be righteous enough to go into his kingdom of heaven and it all sums up to love God with all your heart, soul and might and to love your neighbor as yourself. Now do these and you are not far from the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 12:
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[f] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[g] There is no commandment greater than these.”
32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”

Thank you Merciful God.:pray:
Just to substantiate what I said about violating God's commandments, one can violate God's commandment if what we did is for the good and for mercy. This is another reason why God is not strict if people disobeyed His commandments with the intention of doing good and mercy. If one applied it too strict, it will create more evil just as what the Pharisees did thinking that what they did was right in God's eye.

Matthew 12:12 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”
3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’[a] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”
11 He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

There are many situations in which we cannot apply the law strictly or it may backfired e.g.
In our current national law, it is illegal to steal, but if one steals food in order that he and his family will not starve to death, is it morally wrong? Should the thief be punished severely or just get off with a lighter sentence?
It is illegal to kill a human being but if one did it for self defence or during war to kill the enemy, is it wrong?
Sometimes we think that committing adultery is wrong, but then how could the poor wife forced a divorce from a hot-tempered, wicked, drunkard, wife-beating husband? Should she continue to suffer and die under his hands?
But if the adultery is committed because of lust, then it will be considered as wrong.

There are many other examples in the Bible in which one can make use of what is considered wrong for good and merciful purposes. A good example is the dishonest steward:

The Parable of the Shrewd Manager
Luke 16:16 Jesus told his disciples: “There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. 2 So he called him in and asked him, ‘What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management, because you cannot be manager any longer.’

3 “The manager said to himself, ‘What shall I do now? My master is taking away my job. I’m not strong enough to dig, and I’m ashamed to beg— 4 I know what I’ll do so that, when I lose my job here, people will welcome me into their houses.’

5 “So he called in each one of his master’s debtors. He asked the first, ‘How much do you owe my master?’

6 “‘Nine hundred gallons[a] of olive oil,’ he replied.

“The manager told him, ‘Take your bill, sit down quickly, and make it four hundred and fifty.’

7 “Then he asked the second, ‘And how much do you owe?’

“‘A thousand bushels of wheat,’ he replied.

“He told him, ‘Take your bill and make it eight hundred.’

8 [B]“The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. 9 I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

May God shows us Mercy. :pray:

David M

08-25-2012, 08:03 AM

I agree with you Cheow. There are exceptions which "prove the rule" as they say, and sometimes one has to do something which is the exception and the law does not prescribe for.

God gave us laws and the problem is (as I said in another post) that man complicates the law by trying to legislate for every situation and circumstance and the law then becomes cumbersome. It is when people look to circumvent the law, that new laws are added to stop the circumventions and so it escalates.

If the Two Great Commandments are at the core of every person's being and when a person's motives are examined, these two great commandments are seen to be the only motivators, then the man or woman with these motivations guiding them in everything they do, would make it impossible for them to sin.

While these two great commandments are not the prime motivations in our lives and we leave room for selfish thoughts, that is when we have "the devil" in us. Resisting "the devil" so it will go from you, is to replace all selfish thoughts and let the two great commands be the only governing factor in our lives. This is never going to happen in this world and only in God's kingdom to come will it be when this is seen. God's Kingdom will finally prove that God's way is the only way and God will be vindicated.

May God's blessing be with us,

David

David M

08-25-2012, 08:15 AM

CWH

07-10-2014, 06:30 PM

The second greatest commandment of Jesus "Love they neighbor as thyself" that may lead you to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven certainly deserves a more intense study. It is interesting study and worth your time to meditate on it. Here I present my commentary using the parable of the good Samaritan:

Who is thy neighbor?
1. Your neighbor is those who do no harm to you
2. Your neighbor is anyone who you have or happened to be in contact with including strangers
3. A neighbor is not necessary your neighbor but the people around you
4. A neighbor is one who needs your help and you helped him
5. A neighbor is not necessary your own kinsmen but anyone including your enemy who helps you
6. A neighbor helps unselfishly, going the extra mile without thought of being helped in return or expecting a remuneration
7. A neighbor is one who put himself in your shoes expecting how he wanted himself to be treated if he happened to be in the same predicament.

Literally, a neighbor is someone who is or lives around you. And as neighbors, they share the same surroundings, use the same resources and rely on each other if they needed help. They do no harm to each other and willingly go the extra mile to help each other. Thus, it is mutually beneficial that neighbors co-operate and love each other harmoniously. This is what God wants from us. See my comments in red:

Luke 10:29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers(people who harmed you is Not your neighbor).They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. (a supposedly moral and good person who did not help you when in need is Not your neighbor)32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.(your own trusted kinsmen who did not helped you when in need is Not your neighbor) 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him.(someone, even your enemy or someone whom you don't like who pitied and helped you when in need IS your neighbor) 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’ (a neighbor is one who not only helped you but empathized you by going the extra mile without thought of remuneration or compensation and understanding your every help needed as he understands his if he is in the same situation).

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.” (A neighbor is one who shows mercy and helps)

This is a good example of Love thy neighbor as thyself.:)

God Bless.:pray:

Rose

07-10-2014, 07:18 PM

The second greatest commandment of Jesus "Love they neighbor as thyself" deserves a more intense study. It is interesting. Here I present my commentary using the parable of the good Samaritan:

Who is thy neighbor?
1. Your neighbor is those who do no harm to you
2. Your neighbor is anyone who you have or happened to be in contact with including strangers
3. A neighbor is not necessary your neighbor but the people around you
4. A neighbor is one who needs your help and you helped him
5. A neighbor is not necessary your own kinsmen but anyone including your enemy who helps you
6. A neighbor helps unselfishly, going the extra mile without thought of being helped in return or expecting a remuneration
7. A neighbor is one who put himself in your shoes expecting how he wanted himself to be treated if he happened to be in the same predicament.

Literally, a neighbor is someone who is or lives around you. And as neighbors, they share the same surroundings, use the same resources and rely on each other if they needed help. They do no harm to each other and willingly go the extra mile to help each other. Thus, it is mutually beneficial that neighbors co-operate and love each other harmoniously. This is what God wants from us.

God Bless.:pray:

I totally agree with your sentiments on what a neighbor should be. We should treat each other with respect and equality and look out for our neighbors well-being. In no way should we harm or impinge upon the freedoms of our neighbors, and always do our best to be kind ... which brings me to a question that I know you are expecting.

If we are told by Jesus to "Love our neighbors as ourselves", why were the Hebrews given permission by the Biblegod - whom Jesus claims was his father - to kill, rape, pillage and take their neighbors as slaves? Those actions do not seem very neighborly, and we certainly would not want that done to ourselves!!

CWH

07-10-2014, 07:28 PM

I totally agree with your sentiments on what a neighbor should be. We should treat each other with respect and equality and look out for our neighbors well-being. In no way should we harm or impinge upon the freedoms of our neighbors, and always do our best to be kind ... which brings me to a question that I know you are expecting.
Good, you are coming back to your senses.:p

If we are told by Jesus to "Love our neighbors as ourselves", why were the Hebrews given permission by the Biblegod - whom Jesus claims was his father - to kill, rape, pillage and take their neighbors as slaves? Those actions do not seem very neighborly, and we certainly would not want that done to ourselves!!

My question to you is, Do you consider those who harmed you as your neighbor..... killed your family members, raped you and your daughters, pillage your house and take everyone that he capture to work or sold as slaves? Obviously No; you want justice, you want those who did those things to you DEAD!

Do unto others what you want others to do to you.(Luke 13:6). You reap what you sow.

Go:pray:d Bless.

Rose

07-10-2014, 07:48 PM

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Rose http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?p=64508#post64508)
I totally agree with your sentiments on what a neighbor should be. We should treat each other with respect and equality and look out for our neighbors well-being. In no way should we harm or impinge upon the freedoms of our neighbors, and always do our best to be kind ... which brings me to a question that I know you are expecting.
Good, you are coming back to your senses.:p

If we are told by Jesus to "Love our neighbors as ourselves", why were the Hebrews given permission by the Biblegod - whom Jesus claims was his father - to kill, rape, pillage and take their neighbors as slaves? Those actions do not seem very neighborly, and we certainly would not want that done to ourselves!!

My question to you is, Do you consider those who harmed you as your neighbor..... killed your family members, raped you and your daughters, pillage your house and take everyone that he capture to work or sold as slaves? Obviously No; you want justice, you want those who did those things to you DEAD!

Do unto others what you want others to do to you.(Luke 13:6). You reap what you sow.

Go:pray:d Bless.

My question (in red) was not answered ... and your question makes no sense.

Please answer my question of: Why were the Hebrews given permission by the Biblegod to kill, rape, pillage and take their neighbors as slaves?

And please state your question in a manner that makes sense.

CWH

07-10-2014, 08:30 PM

My question (in red) was not answered ... and your question makes no sense.

Please answer my question of: Why were the Hebrews given permission by the Biblegod to kill, rape, pillage and take their neighbors as slaves?

And please state your question in a manner that makes sense.
Have you lost your brain?.....
Because evils were done to the Hebrews, their people were killed, raped, properties pillaged, and captives sold as slaves. Don't you think it is morally justified to take revenge and demand justice form those evil people who did those things to the Hebrews? What do you do if those things happened to you and your family? If for me, I will Never let them off, I want them dead. There is nothing better and satisfying than getting the revenge and justice by themselves or do you think it is better and more satisfying to let others do the revenge and justice for you?
There are many passages in the OT that states that the Hebrews were harmed in those ways. It is also stated that God told them not to treat the captives as what other tribes will treat them such as raped and sold as slaves. They were told to marry the captive women so that they will be treated as wives and not slaves. They were told not to sell them off. The male captives were to work for the Hebrews as slave for 6 years and then released with some allowance unlike other tribes in which the captured slaves were to work till they die under much harsher conditions. They are like modern POWs because they supported the enemy and participated in the killing and evils done to the Hebrews and thus some punishment have to be meted out for justice. War captives throughout human history were treated the same but much harsher than what the Hebrews treated their captives. No country in the world will let their POWs easily off without some punishment for being the ex-enemy.

A neighbor who harmed you or intend to harm you is Never your neighbor. Obviously, you don't want these supposedly neighbors to be anywhere near you.

God Bless.:pray:

Matthjar

08-03-2014, 03:48 AM

I have to say i am very shocked to read the posts in this thread..... I had always considered that it was fairly obvious that neighbor meant everyone (all of humanity) and had no idea that people would actually lower the standards for those you should love.

As was already pointed out by one post that when Jesus was asked who is my neighbor it is no mistake the identities of the people he choose in his illustration. I also think that Jesus also was shocked at the need for a qualifying question. Could it have been that Jesus assumed that they would automatically understand that neighbor=everyone, or was he actually just baiting them so that he could further explain his point, in effect drawing them in closer to such a hard to accept and radical truth in small steps instead of on Blunt in your face statement. I believe Jesus shows his wisdom in this approach to convey a hard to swallow message to a people very inclined to make snap judgments. In effect he was utilizing the Socratic Method by answering a question with a question, i should learn to use that same technique more often.

In this particular story here are the players.....

1. The Religous Moral authority of the time(same religion)..... the Priest.... of all the people this person should have been to first to help out the man.

2. The fellow countryman (close proximity).... the Levite..... this person also should have help out the man.

3. The Samaratian ...(Hated enemy).... to put in a more modern context this would read Nazi to Jew.

His final command of "go and do likewise" is a direct way of saying you should love even your most hated enemy.

We should also notice that the level of help given also gives us a definition of the love we are commanded to show...... the hated enemy did not just give him some first aid...... or transport him to a safer place... effectively passing off the mans well being onto someone else. Nope that Love went all out...... providing not just for the mans present healing but even his future healing also (by promising the innkeeper to cover all future expenses also)......

Some of the comments about it not being being possible to love everyone due to limited resources also seems off to me........ we are called to show the same love to others that Jesus showed to us.... which in case anyone forgot is that he died for the thieves that attacked and wounded the man in the first place.

I am not saying that it is easy at all.... it fact it is a very high calling..... but not impossible when we have the same love of Jesus within us. I feel the need to state again that the ONLY hope for humanity is Jesus and his teachings. Paul further continued in this same train of thought when admonishing us to Bless those that curse you..... pray for those that persecute you....

I also need to point out that most of Snap emotional rejections of this teaching are mitigated with the full understanding that our time here is nothing...... our whole lives here is nothing when compared with ALL of eternity where we will be surrounded by this level of Love. And that is the ultimate question..... If you truly believe and faith and hope for that eternity it makes fulfilling this commandment of Christ possible.....

If you don't believe in Eternity then ALL we have in this life is this life and Jesus' command to us is Utter foolishness.......and because the World is so filled with Evil, Unfairness, Hate, Strife in order to survive we must resort to the ways of the World to survive. It all becomes a competition for limited resources where MIGHT makes RIGHT. With no Eternity then it is GOOD for me to use any means possible to provide for my own survival and the survival of my Gene Pool, because survival in the here and now is ALL there is. I think it is all Illusion that any middle ground can be achieved . Because then the commandment becomes Love those that Help you, Love those that Love you, Love those in close proximity that can increase your chances of temporal survival until you die, and the reverse would also be true... Hate those that Hate you, Kill those that Kill you (can you say Israel vs Hamas), steal from those that steal from you, cheat those that cheat you, If someone wrongs you then make them wish they had not.

The other reason why this does not work is the property of escalation. It turns out that when an evil or unjust act is committed it is always as perceived as less evil by the doer.... and more evil by the one done too. If my Dog Craps on my neighbors lawn i prolly think it is a little thing or maybe even that it is a funny little occurance, my neighbor on the other hand prolly thinks the infraction is more serious, so he might think to rub the crap on the hood of my car "to see how i like it." At which point i am upset about him messing with my car so I scratch his car, he slashes the tires on my car, I light his shrubs on fire, etc etc..... until eventually we move from property damage to person damage..... and all out thermonuclear warfare...... all because my Dog deficated in an inapporpiate area. This of course is purposefully extreme in order to illustrate the point.

Jesus also was very extreme with any questioners trying to find some loopholes in his teachings or wanting him to quantify the limits of them. How many times should i forgive someone who wronged me 7 times??? Nope 7 X 70........ How can a rich man enter the kingdom of heaven.... it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle......... should we pay taxes to the evil enslaving Roman empire..... grant to caesar what is caesar's and to God what is God's..... I am sure there are many more those are just the first three that entered my mind......

The bottom line is that as a species we all create the type of world we want to live in ...... maybe it is possible to live in a perfect world without an eternity and without Jesus if people can be willing to die forever for their most hated enemy (even that though is still the Jesus role without the forever part which would be even harder to do than what Jesus did as he knew he would rise again and be exalted forever and ever.) I guess a theory of reincarnation could also possibly work......

Anyhow just my 2 cents worth on the matter......

With utter devotion to Love and Truth,
Matthjar..

CWH

08-03-2014, 03:58 AM

I have to say i am very shocked to read the posts in this thread..... I had always considered that it was fairly obvious that neighbor meant everyone (all of humanity) and had no idea that people would actually lower the standards for those you should love.

As was already pointed out by one post that when Jesus was asked who is my neighbor it is no mistake the identities of the people he choose in his illustration. I also think that Jesus also was shocked at the need for a qualifying question. Could it have been that Jesus assumed that they would automatically understand that neighbor=everyone, or was he actually just baiting them so that he could further explain his point, in effect drawing them in closer to such a hard to accept and radical truth in small steps instead of on Blunt in your face statement. I believe Jesus shows his wisdom in this approach to convey a hard to swallow message to a people very inclined to make snap judgments. In effect he was utilizing the Socratic Method by answering a question with a question, i should learn to use that same technique more often.

In this particular story here are the players.....

1. The Religous Moral authority of the time..... the Priest.... of all the people this person should have been to first to help out the man.

To be continued.....

If that is the case, why not Jesus say, "Love everyone as thyself"? or "Love others as thyself"? Who then is thy neighbor?

There are other passages on thy neighbor in the Bible....do these soumds like everyone?:

Exodus 3:22Every woman is to ask her neighbor and any woman living in her house for articles of silver and gold and for clothing, which you will put on your sons and daughters. And so you will plunder the Egyptians.”

Exodus 11:2Tell the people that men and women alike are to ask their neighbors for articles of silver and gold.”

Exodus 12:4If any household is too small for a whole lamb, they must share one with their nearest neighbor, having taken into account the number of people there are. You are to determine the amount of lamb needed in accordance with what each person will eat.

Exodus 20:16“You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

Exodus 20:17“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

Exodus 22:7“If anyone gives a neighbor silver or goods for safekeeping and they are stolen from the neighbor’s house, the thief, if caught, must pay back double.

Exodus 22:10“If anyone gives a donkey, an ox, a sheep or any other animal to their neighbor for safekeeping and it dies or is injured or is taken away while no one is looking,

Exodus 22:11the issue between them will be settled by the taking of an oath before the Lord that the neighbor did not lay hands on the other person’s property. The owner is to accept this, and no restitution is required.

Exodus 22:12But if the animal was stolen from the neighbor, restitution must be made to the owner.

Exodus 22:13If it was torn to pieces by a wild animal, the neighbor shall bring in the remains as evidence and shall not be required to pay for the torn animal.

Exodus 22:14“If anyone borrows an animal from their neighbor and it is injured or dies while the owner is not present, they must make restitution.

Exodus 22:26If you take your neighbor’s cloak as a pledge, return it by sunset,

Exodus 22:27because that cloak is the only covering your neighbor has. What else can they sleep in? When they cry out to me, I will hear, for I am compassionate.

Exodus 32:27Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’”

Leviticus 6:2“If anyone sins and is unfaithful to the Lord by deceiving a neighbor about something entrusted to them or left in their care or about something stolen, or if they cheat their neighbor,

Leviticus 18:20“‘Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor’s wife and defile yourself with her.

Leviticus 19:13“‘Do not defraud or rob your neighbor. “‘Do not hold back the wages of a hired worker overnight.

Leviticus 19:15“‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

Leviticus 19:16“‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people. “‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the Lord.

Leviticus 19:17“‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.

Leviticus 19:18“‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

Leviticus 20:10“‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

Leviticus 24:19Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner:

Deuteronomy 1:7Break camp and advance into the hill country of the Amorites; go to all the neighboring peoples in the Arabah, in the mountains, in the western foothills, in the Negev and along the coast, to the land of the Canaanites and to Lebanon, as far as the great river, the Euphrates.

Deuteronomy 4:42to which anyone who had killed a person could flee if they had unintentionally killed a neighbor without malice aforethought. They could flee into one of these cities and save their life.

God Bless.:pray:

Matthjar

08-03-2014, 05:55 AM

If that is the case, why not Jesus say, "Love everyone as thyself"? or "Love others as thyself"? Who then is thy neighbor?

There are other passages on thy neighbor in the Bible....do these soumds like everyone?:

Exodus 3:22Every woman is to ask her neighbor and any woman living in her house for articles of silver and gold and for clothing, which you will put on your sons and daughters. And so you will plunder the Egyptians.”

Exodus 11:2Tell the people that men and women alike are to ask their neighbors for articles of silver and gold.”

Exodus 12:4If any household is too small for a whole lamb, they must share one with their nearest neighbor, having taken into account the number of people there are. You are to determine the amount of lamb needed in accordance with what each person will eat.

Exodus 20:16“You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

Exodus 20:17“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

Exodus 22:7“If anyone gives a neighbor silver or goods for safekeeping and they are stolen from the neighbor’s house, the thief, if caught, must pay back double.

Exodus 22:10“If anyone gives a donkey, an ox, a sheep or any other animal to their neighbor for safekeeping and it dies or is injured or is taken away while no one is looking,

Exodus 22:11the issue between them will be settled by the taking of an oath before the Lord that the neighbor did not lay hands on the other person’s property. The owner is to accept this, and no restitution is required.

Exodus 22:12But if the animal was stolen from the neighbor, restitution must be made to the owner.

Exodus 22:13If it was torn to pieces by a wild animal, the neighbor shall bring in the remains as evidence and shall not be required to pay for the torn animal.

Exodus 22:14“If anyone borrows an animal from their neighbor and it is injured or dies while the owner is not present, they must make restitution.

Exodus 22:26If you take your neighbor’s cloak as a pledge, return it by sunset,

Exodus 22:27because that cloak is the only covering your neighbor has. What else can they sleep in? When they cry out to me, I will hear, for I am compassionate.

Exodus 32:27Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’”

Leviticus 6:2“If anyone sins and is unfaithful to the Lord by deceiving a neighbor about something entrusted to them or left in their care or about something stolen, or if they cheat their neighbor,

Leviticus 18:20“‘Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor’s wife and defile yourself with her.

Leviticus 19:13“‘Do not defraud or rob your neighbor. “‘Do not hold back the wages of a hired worker overnight.

Leviticus 19:15“‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

Leviticus 19:16“‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people. “‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the Lord.

Leviticus 19:17“‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.

Leviticus 19:18“‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

Leviticus 20:10“‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

Leviticus 24:19Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner:

Deuteronomy 1:7Break camp and advance into the hill country of the Amorites; go to all the neighboring peoples in the Arabah, in the mountains, in the western foothills, in the Negev and along the coast, to the land of the Canaanites and to Lebanon, as far as the great river, the Euphrates.

Deuteronomy 4:42to which anyone who had killed a person could flee if they had unintentionally killed a neighbor without malice aforethought. They could flee into one of these cities and save their life.

God Bless.:pray:

Many of them sound like Everyone to me... specially the moral ones.... and Many of them just sound like neighbor to me .. specially the specific ones...... In order for us to accurately determine the usage of a word we have to use the contextual clues...... not only does this apply to the meaning of a word but also a sentence, paragraph, chapter, book or in this case even the whole bible.

That is when jesus was asked who is my neighbor he give the answer of your most hated enemy so there would be little doubt...... also we have the clues supplied in the Sheep and the Goats in revelations..... where it is defined as the least of my brethren by the Son of Man..... His brethren would be ALL of humanity....... the weakest (least of power)... the most vile (the least of goodness)....

Also by looking at the parable of the Unforgiving servant (Matthew 18:21-35) That Jesus merely expects us to Love others in the same way that he loved us.... can you think of any reason that you should love someone less then Jesus did. I realize that you might want to argue that Love is preconditional based on a repentant heart or remorseful attitude in which i would reply that Jesus Loved you enough to DIE for you before you where remorseful or repentant.

I hope this is all making sense to you..... Also i noticed that you responded to my orginal post before i was finished in writing the whole thing so maybe that will open up some more discussion.....

Also In order to continue a fruitful discussion on this topic i would like you to know that i would carefully evaluate any evidence that you can show that we are to possess anything less than the Love of Christ for all of humanity, as this is a most important topic indeed.

With Utter devotion to Love and Truth,
Matthjar

CWH

08-03-2014, 09:57 AM

Many of them sound like Everyone to me... specially the moral ones.... and Many of them just sound like neighbor to me .. specially the specific ones...... In order for us to accurately determine the usage of a word we have to use the contextual clues...... not only does this apply to the meaning of a word but also a sentence, paragraph, chapter, book or in this case even the whole bible.

That is when jesus was asked who is my neighbor he give the answer of your most hated enemy so there would be little doubt...... also we have the clues supplied in the Sheep and the Goats in revelations..... where it is defined as the least of my brethren by the Son of Man..... His brethren would be ALL of humanity....... the weakest (least of power)... the most vile (the least of goodness)....

Also by looking at the parable of the Unforgiving servant (Matthew 18:21-35) That Jesus merely expects us to Love others in the same way that he loved us.... can you think of any reason that you should love someone less then Jesus did. I realize that you might want to argue that Love is preconditional based on a repentant heart or remorseful attitude in which i would reply that Jesus Loved you enough to DIE for you before you where remorseful or repentant.

I hope this is all making sense to you..... Also i noticed that you responded to my orginal post before i was finished in writing the whole thing so maybe that will open up some more discussion.....

Also In order to continue a fruitful discussion on this topic i would like you to know that i would carefully evaluate any evidence that you can show that we are to possess anything less than the Love of Christ for all of humanity, as this is a most important topic indeed.

With Utter devotion to Love and Truth,
Matthjar
Hi Matthjah,

You are almost right when you say that neighbor is everybody but there is a subtle meaning if not Jesus would have said "Love Everybody as Thyself" but instead he said, "Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself"....why? And this is what this thread is trying to answer.

In my beginning post in this thread, this is what I said about what a real neighbor is:

The second greatest commandment of Jesus "Love they neighbor as thyself" deserves a more intense study. It is interesting. Here I present my commentary using the parable of the good Samaritan:

Who is thy neighbor?
1. Your neighbor is those who do no harm to you
2. Your neighbor is anyone who you have or happened to be in contact with including strangers
3. A neighbor is not necessary your neighbor but the people around you
4. A neighbor is one who needs your help and you helped him
5. A neighbor is not necessary your own kinsmen but anyone including your enemy who helps you
6. A neighbor helps unselfishly, going the extra mile without thought of being helped in return or expecting a remuneration
7. A neighbor is one who put himself in your shoes expecting how he wanted himself to be treated if he happened to be in the same predicament.

Literally, a neighbor is someone who is or lives around you. And as neighbors, they share the same surroundings, use the same resources and rely on each other if they needed help. They do no harm to each other and willingly go the extra mile to help each other. Thus, it is mutually beneficial that neighbors co-operate and love each other harmoniously. This is what God wants from us.

A neighbor is simply anyone or everybody who is around or whom you interacts with. An ideal neighbor are those 7 points that I have put up.

A stranger who saw you fall and seriously injured yourself but yet did not offer to help you is your neighbor because he is around you but he is not your real neighbor (in fact to me he is Not your neighbor) because he did not help you
which a real neighbor should have done. Yet despite him not helping you, you are supposed to love him and forgive him for not helping you and help him if he needed your help even by going the extra mile as he is your neighbor i.e. someone who is around you or whom you happened to interact. In other words, this neighbor don't love you but yet you love him like you are loving yourself. To me, this is the meaning of "Love thy neighbor as thyself".

In Jesus parable, supposed you are the victim, the robber is your neighbor who robbed you because he is around you; the priest who saw you half dead but did not helped you is also your neighbor because he is around you; the Levite who is your own people who also saw you but did not help is also your neighbor because he is around you; a Samaritan who is your enemy who saw you is also your neighbor because he is around you but he is your real neighbor because he helped you and even go the extra mile. The robber is your worst neighbor, the second worst neighbor is the priest who is supposed to be righteous and helped you and the third worst neighbor is the Levite, you own people but did not helped you yet you are not supposed to bear grudges against them but to forgive them and love them and helped them as much as possible if you happened to meet them (i.e. neighbor as they are around you) and if they needed your help. This is what is meant by Love thy neighbor as thyself"... Do unto others what you want other to do unto to you.

Your neighbor is anybody or everybody around you BUT Not anybody or everybody around you is your (Real) neighbor. Yet you are to Love them as yourself because they are around you or who interacted with you i.e. your neighbor.

Hope I don't confused everybody....i.e. my neighbors.:p

Luke 10:29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers(people who harmed you is Not your neighbor).They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. (a supposedly moral and good person who did not help you when in need is Not your neighbor)32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.(your own trusted kinsmen who did not helped you when in need is Not your neighbor) 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him.(someone, even your enemy or someone whom you don't like who pitied and helped you when in need IS your neighbor) 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’ (a neighbor is one who not only helped you but empathized you by going the extra mile without thought of remuneration or compensation and understanding your every help needed as he understands his if he is in the same situation).

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.” (A neighbor is one who shows mercy and helps)

God Bless.:pray:

Matthjar

08-03-2014, 11:27 AM

Matthjar

08-03-2014, 11:49 AM

Howdy,

Gil > What should be equally addressed is what if the Samaritan had came across the man as he was being beaten.
Would the Samaritan have dived into the fray and helped to defend him , to kill for him if necessary if he to was attacked as well?.

Or would Jesus have said," give him you right check and the left " until they leave and then help him out of the ditch.

Gil

-------------------------

I completely agree GIL that this is another aspect that should be addressed and IMHO is actually a much more sensitive and touchy subject. If we want to make it the hardest possible we might even say what if that Other being beaten was your family, child, spouse, parent???? I believe that taking in to account of Peter resisting the arrest of Jesus to be taken, totured, and executed in one of the vilest ways possible and Jesus instructing him to stand down and that those who "Live by the sword die by the sword" is our best hint. I am not saying it would be easy but it is the way in which Jesus would have us act. While i would not rush into the Fray.... I also would not stand by like a lump on the log either..... I would attempt to disrupt the event by using my most authortative voice in a most simple command like "ENOUGH" or "HALT"...... the best case scenario at that point is that the criminals shamed by their actions would scurry to the shadows to hide...... and the next best would be that they would turn their attention upon me and away from their first intended victim .... it is hard to say if I would try to maintain a self defensive posture and attempt to shield,block, or dodge their attacks in an act of self defense..... In a modern age of firearms this is almost pointless though....... the worse possible scenario would be if they dispatched both me and the original.... or even ignored me and continued beating the original victim decides my presence..... I am not so sure Turn the other cheek applies here as a slap on the cheek is a fairly minor attack and not really equivalent to a beating.... As far as entering an offensive posture to dispatch the enemy i am not so certain if that is what we are called to do.....

Anyone have any thoughts in this aspect,
Matthjar

CWH

08-03-2014, 12:06 PM

OK..... I must apologize .... I was wrong ... i did not read your original post close enough and in so thought you were in effect almost asserting the opposite idea that we are only required to Love our Good neighbors and not the Bad ones.... Reading that one line at the end changed the whole meaning when you state that God wants/requires us to be Good neighbors. ;-). I also do understand your distinction of "real neighbor" as being real/good/true neighbor, and the the not your neighbor as being not/bad/false/untrue neighbor. Good post CWH!!!
It's ok Matthjar,

Initially I thought my neighbor was the person who shows mercy and help a fellow being. But as I explore further, I realized that my neighbor simply mean someone near or around you or whom you have interact with. And a neighbor or someone who is around you who did not help you cannot be your so call neighbor. So near yet so far... The neighbor who is the person physically near you but yet so far ethically in offering to help you cannot be consider a neighbor because he is so far away morally to offer help.

"Love thy neighbor as thyself" does not mean love your own group of people i.e. the Hebrews as some people here thought it means.

At least we come to a harmonious conclusion of what is meant by "Love thy neighbor as Thyself". That is the Truth!:thumb:

Thank you for your post too.

God Bless.:pray:

CWH

08-03-2014, 12:24 PM

I completely agree GIL that this is another aspect that should be addressed and IMHO is actually a much more sensitive and touchy subject. If we want to make it the hardest possible we might even say what if that Other being beaten was your family, child, spouse, parent???? I believe that taking in to account of Peter resisting the arrest of Jesus to be taken, totured, and executed in one of the vilest ways possible and Jesus instructing him to stand down and that those who "Live by the sword die by the sword" is our best hint. I am not saying it would be easy but it is the way in which Jesus would have us act. While i would not rush into the Fray.... I also would not stand by like a lump on the log either..... I would attempt to disrupt the event by using my most authortative voice in a most simple command like "ENOUGH" or "HALT"...... the best case scenario at that point is that the criminals shamed by their actions would scurry to the shadows to hide...... and the next best would be that they would turn their attention upon me and away from their first intended victim .... it is hard to say if I would try to maintain a self defensive posture and attempt to shield,block, or dodge their attacks in an act of self defense..... In a modern age of firearms this is almost pointless though....... the worse possible scenario would be if they dispatched both me and the original.... or even ignored me and continued beating the original victim decides my presence..... I am not so sure Turn the other cheek applies here as a slap on the cheek is a fairly minor attack and not really equivalent to a beating.... As far as entering an offensive posture to dispatch the enemy i am not so certain if that is what we are called to do.....

Anyone have any thoughts in this aspect,
Matthjar
I do vacillate on such dilemma. In Jesus parable of the Good Samaritan, what happened if the robber beat the victim and those who were supposed to help did not and the victim died from his injury? Should we forgive those who did not save the victim as we are supposed to "Love they neighbor" or should we demand justice and accused the robber and those who did not help to save the victim of manslaughter? I think in this case, justice should come in first before forgiveness. Forgiveness is the hallmark of Love thy neighbor and Punishment is the hallmark of Justice. I think in this case, both should be applied, punishment for justice followed by forgiveness if they repent.

God Bless.:pray: