Where are the 380?

[heb13-13]

1Co 15:4
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

1Co 15:5
And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

1Co 15:6
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1Co 15:7
After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

Act 1:13
And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

Act 1:14
These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Act 1:15
And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)


Paul says that Jesus Christ appeared to 500 at once. Ok, on the Day of Pentecost there were 120 in the upper room. Where are the other 380? Why would 380 be missing when the other 120 are waiting for the "Promise of the Father?"

Something to think about:

To our five senses life is literal, and many of us read the Bible that way, too. However, there is much spiritual cause and meaning behind what our physical senses "interpret". If we only use our physical senses to interpret "life" we miss the true meaning of one's actions and words.

Why do you think the 380 were missing?

Rick

[Richard Amiel McGough]

1Co 15:4
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

1Co 15:5
And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

1Co 15:6
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1Co 15:7
After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

Act 1:13
And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

Act 1:14
These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Act 1:15
And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)


Paul says that Jesus Christ appeared to 500 at once. Ok, on the Day of Pentecost there were 120 in the upper room. Where are the other 380? Why would 380 be missing when the other 120 are waiting for the "Promise of the Father?"

Something to think about:

To our five senses life is literal, and many of us read the Bible that way, too. However, there is much spiritual cause and meaning behind what our physical senses "interpret". If we only use our physical senses to interpret "life" we miss the true meaning of one's actions and words.

Why do you think the 380 were missing?

Rick


Very curious question Rick. The chronology of appearances has always struck me as a little odd:


Peter
then the 12 apostles
then 500 at once
then James
then all the apostles
the Paul

It is odd that Christ appeared privately to Peter and James. And who were "all the apostles" that apparently form a different group than the 12?

Now the "missing 380" would only be a question if the 500 saw Christ before Pentecost. So that's the question - when did these appearances happen? We know the final appearance to Paul happened long after Pentecost, so maybe the same is true of the appearance to the 500? That seems like the most likely solution (if we are to assume that there is a solution, an assumption I have no reason to make). But there is a fly in this ointment. There was no "twelve" before Pentecost when Mattias was chosen to replace Judas! Even Luke acknowledged this in Acts which speaks of the "eleven" rather than twelve after Judas killed himself. So .... it appears the number "12" is being used symbolically? Or is this a simple error? Or does it give reason to think it happened after Pentecost?

Like I said ~ excellent question! It leads immediately to a bunch of other questions.

[heb13-13]

Very interesting, just "thinking out loud."

Gematria link for 380.

http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/gr_380.asp

"I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." Exodus 20.1

"Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?" Isaiah 58.6

These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. Act 1:14

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Act 2:21

I see a link between the "fast" that God has chosen to "loose the bands of wickedness" and the 120 in "one accord in prayer and supplication" (probably fasting) and later 3,000 saved in one day. All because 380 who were evidently not supposed to be there.

Reminds me of the process of elimination. All are called but not all respond to the call with all their heart.
"And the number of them that lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, were three hundred men: but all the rest of the people bowed down upon their knees to drink water." Jdg 7:6

They started out with 10,000.

Once again, the majority (380) are no where to be seen.

Rick

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Very interesting: Gematria link for 380.

http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/gr_380.asp

"I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." Exodus 20.1

"Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?" Isaiah 58.6

These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. Act 1:14

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Act 2:21


Well, I never would have thought that we should take the number 380 as precise because the text says "above 500" so we simply don't know exactly how many were "missing."

But I agree that Egypt = 380 = 20 x 19 coheres well with the symbolic meaning of the number 19 (flesh and physicality), but I don't see how that would give us any real insight to the question at hand.

[heb13-13]

Hey Richard,

I think I was replying at the same time as you were.

Of course there is no way to prove it, but it seems that 1 Cor 15 is not necessarily chronological and the best opportunity that Jesus would have had to appear to 500 would be before He ascended. However, He can appear to 500 anytime if He so chooses.

You could also look at this another way. You don't have to be in the Upper Room to be filled with the Holy Ghost.

The Lord could have had another mission for those 380. He told Peter, (paraphrase) don't worry about what John does, you follow me.

I find the occurrence of this five hundred interesting, too.

Exo 30:24
And of cassia five hundred shekels, after the shekel of the sanctuary, and of oil olive an hin:

Exo 30:25
And thou shalt make it an oil of holy ointment, an ointment compound after the art of the apothecary: it shall be an holy anointing oil.

Exo 30:26
And thou shalt anoint the tabernacle of the congregation therewith, and the ark of the testimony,

Exo 30:27
And the table and all his vessels, and the candlestick and his vessels, and the altar of incense,

Exo 30:28
And the altar of burnt offering with all his vessels, and the laver and his foot.

Exo 30:29
And thou shalt sanctify them, that they may be most holy: whatsoever toucheth them shall be holy.

All the best,
Rick

[heb13-13]

Well, I never would have thought that we should take the number 380 as precise because the text says "above 500" so we simply don't know exactly how many were "missing."

But I agree that Egypt = 380 = 20 x 19 coheres well with the symbolic meaning of the number 19 (flesh and physicality), but I don't see how that would give us any real insight to the question at hand.

I agree, but this little study gives me another way to remember some things and who knows, maybe my understanding will be "expanded" as time goes on.

And I just noticed that the text says "above five hundred". But I am just taking the number they quoted since there is no way to assume it was 501, 505 or 510. That makes the actual quoted number significant because that's all we have to go on.

Thanks Richard,
Have a great day.

Rick

[heb13-13]

I agree, but this little study gives me another way to remember some things and who knows, maybe my understanding will be "expanded" as time goes on.

And I just noticed that the text says "above five hundred". But I am just taking the number they quoted since there is no way to assume it was 501, 505 or 510. That makes the actual quoted number significant because that's all we have to go on.

Thanks Richard,
Have a great day.

Rick

I can see how with the proper amount of thought a "mystery religion" can be created that only "initiates" know about.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I can see how with the proper amount of thought a "mystery religion" can be created that only "initiates" know about.
If we compare Christianity with the mystery religions and secret societies reviewed in the classic The Mystery Religions by Samuel Angus, I would say that Christianity is a mystery religion.

[Rose]

1Co 15:4
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

1Co 15:5
And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

1Co 15:6
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1Co 15:7
After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

Act 1:13
And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

Act 1:14
These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Act 1:15
And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)


Paul says that Jesus Christ appeared to 500 at once. Ok, on the Day of Pentecost there were 120 in the upper room. Where are the other 380? Why would 380 be missing when the other 120 are waiting for the "Promise of the Father?"

Something to think about:

To our five senses life is literal, and many of us read the Bible that way, too. However, there is much spiritual cause and meaning behind what our physical senses "interpret". If we only use our physical senses to interpret "life" we miss the true meaning of one's actions and words.

Why do you think the 380 were missing?

Rick



It's also interesting to note that Paul makes no mention of the women who were the first ones to see Jesus after the resurrection, for that matter I don't think Paul ever even mentions Mary Magdalene. All four of the Gospel's mention Mary Magdalene and various other women (Mary the mother of James, Joanna and others) as being the ones who saw Jesus first and went and told the other disciples.

Rose

[heb13-13]

It's also interesting to note that Paul makes no mention of the women who were the first ones to see Jesus after the resurrection, for that matter I don't think Paul ever even mentions Mary Magdalene. All four of the Gospel's mention Mary Magdalene and various other women (Mary the mother of James, Joanna and others) as being the ones who saw Jesus first and went and told the other disciples.

Rose


What do you find interesting about that, Rose?

Rick

[heb13-13]

If we compare Christianity with the mystery religions and secret societies reviewed in the classic The Mystery Religions by Samuel Angus, I would say that Christianity is a mystery religion.

I'm going to have to read that book, Richard!

There are a lot of "strains" of Christianity.

Mystery religions aren't simple and yet we are admonished by Paul to stick with the "simplicity that is in Christ".

Like mystery religions, many strains of Christianity are about gaining knowledge instead of knowing God and abiding In Christ.

Can you tell of any mystery religion that teaches God can be known in an intimate, personal way?

Rick

[Rose]

What do you find interesting about that, Rose?

Rick

Well for starters, the fact that Paul implies by order of mention that Peter is the first one to see Jesus after the resurrection and then he goes on to list the twelve, the 500 and lastly James, never making mention of the women who were the first to see Jesus and the ones who told the disciples who did not believe them, Peter even ran to the tomb himself and found it empty. All four Gospels record that the women were the first to find the tomb empty and see the resurrected Jesus, so why is Paul's account different?

Rose

[heb13-13]

Well for starters, the fact that Paul implies by order of mention that Peter is the first one to see Jesus after the resurrection and then he goes on to list the twelve, the 500 and lastly James, never making mention of the women who were the first to see Jesus and the ones who told the disciples who did not believe them, Peter even ran to the tomb himself and found it empty. All four Gospels record that the women were the first to find the tomb empty and see the resurrected Jesus, so why is Paul's account different?

Rose

And you take this to be in error or just chauvinistic?

[Beck]

Is there the possibly that the 500 is symbolic? Knowing that the number 5 is employed as a symbol and to the 5 loafs and the 5000 that were feed, also about 5000 that heard and believed. As I understand the mention of the 500 is those saw Jesus and believed, but that some had doubted.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

What do you find interesting about that, Rose?

Rick
I'm not Rose but I find it interesting for two reasons. The Gospels all say that Jesus first appeared to the women, but Paul doesn't mention them. This seems to indicate that he either had a different tradition or deliberately left them out. Either possibility leads to many interesting questions.

[heb13-13]

I'm not Rose but I find it interesting for two reasons. The Gospels all say that Jesus first appeared to the women, but Paul doesn't mention them. This seems to indicate that he either had a different tradition or deliberately left them out. Either possibility leads to many interesting questions.

Yes, I find that interesting, too.

[Rose]

Well for starters, the fact that Paul implies by order of mention that Peter is the first one to see Jesus after the resurrection and then he goes on to list the twelve, the 500 and lastly James, never making mention of the women who were the first to see Jesus and the ones who told the disciples who did not believe them, Peter even ran to the tomb himself and found it empty. All four Gospels record that the women were the first to find the tomb empty and see the resurrected Jesus, so why is Paul's account different?

Rose
And you take this to be in error or just chauvinistic?

I take it to be a good example of the many contradictions we find in the story of the resurrection and of course another example of the Bible's male bias.

Rose

[duxrow]

Hey Rick,
The last verse in Luke tells us 'they were continually in the Temple' -- so that's where I see them on the Day of Pentecost which started when Caiphas waived the "Firstfruit" offering.
The upper room may have been the men's dormitory -- I don't think Acts 2 takes place there at all..
'Course there were likely two 'upper rooms'... not likely the room rent for the first would have extended past Calvary and the 7 wk. countdown to Pentacost. You think? :thumb:

[heb13-13]

Hey Rick,
The last verse in Luke tells us 'they were continually in the Temple' -- so that's where I see them on the Day of Pentecost which started when Caiphas waived the "Firstfruit" offering.
The upper room may have been the men's dormitory -- I don't think Acts 2 takes place there at all..
'Course there were likely two 'upper rooms'... not likely the room rent for the first would have extended past Calvary and the 7 wk. countdown to Pentacost. You think? :thumb:

Been busy all day, dux. Thanks for this.

That's actually pretty cool that they "were continually in the temple praising and blessing God".

And you are right it said they went in "an upper room" not "the upper room". If it said, "the upper room", we would have thought about "the" upper room that we know about. So, I agree it could have been different and most likely was. Isn't it interesting that it was another upper room? Why not a lower room? Funny in an odd way.

Thanks again,
Rick