Women gives birth to Male Child

[TheForgiven]

Revelation 12:
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 And she, being with child, cried, travailing in birth and in pain to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew a third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a manchild, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and to His throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

I've heard a few interpretations on this, and I'd like to offer mine. I'm under the impression that the Woman mentioned here is Israel. Keep in mind that Israel is only defined by those true to God. This was Israel as a whole, which does not include the false Israel filled with imposters. Thus, I do believe the woman represents Israel of the Old Testament. My reason for this is that the Church did not give birth to Christ, but Christ gave birth to the Church. Now one could argue that "Church" simply means assembly, even in the Old Testament, and in this way I would agree. However, since it was Israel that brought forth the seed, and the seed being Christ, it was Israel who gave birth to the male child. The dragon we agree is Satan and the Roman Empire, and it was both which tried to prevent the birth of Jesus when word was sent to kill all the first born in an attempt to prevent the birth of Christ.

After Christ was raised and returned to the Father, the woman needed protection from the Dragon for 1,260 days. Israel fled to Pella during this time frame in order escape persecution. This had to be the time frame when the armies were building up around Jerusalem. What follows next is Satan persecuting Israel for his loss against Christ and being cast out of heaven. He then takes his wrath upon the rest of her offspring, and that is the Church. We know it's the Church because John is told that these are those who bore witness to Jesus.

So, the story line may have gone like this:
The woman is Israel, the crown of 12 stars are the Tribes, and she gives birth to Jesus. Jesus is caught up to heaven and Satan is kicked out, along with his angels. Satan, in a rage, persecutes Israel and causes many to suffer, and also spews out water [false doctrine] to over-take the woman. But the earth swallows up this water and Satan is further frustrated. Satan then goes after the rest of her offspring, the remnat of Israel [the Apostles and the Church] for not being able to destroy the woman Israel. It's the "remnant" that bore testimony of Jesus. This leads to further times of trouble, for we are given a woe by the Angel to the earth and the sea. This no doubt is the Great Tribulation Period.

What say you all?

Joe

[Rose]

What I say to that is: Great! :clap2: Now I would like to take your story line and continue it.


So, the story line may have gone like this:
The woman is Israel, the crown of 12 stars are the Tribes, and she gives birth to Jesus. Jesus is caught up to heaven and Satan is kicked out, along with his angels. Satan, in a rage, persecutes Israel and causes many to suffer, and also spews out water [false doctrine] to over-take the woman. But the earth swallows up this water and Satan is further frustrated. Satan then goes after the rest of her offspring, the remnat of Israel [the Apostles and the Church] for not being able to destroy the woman Israel. It's the "remnant" that bore testimony of Jesus. This leads to further times of trouble, for we are given a woe by the Angel to the earth and the sea. This no doubt is the Great Tribulation Period.
The woman "Israel" that is protected in the wilderness disappears from the story line until Rev 17:3.

Rev 17:3 "So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns."Where John sees a woman in the wilderness sitting on a beast. This woman is the "Harlot" who is "that great city" which is "Jerusalem". So my conclusion is: the woman John sees in the wilderness on the beast is the same woman of chapter 12 who fled to the wilderness and was protected by God. Now she has become apostate and has been deceived by the beast with seven heads, upon whom she rides, that was introduced to us in chapter 13. Judgment from God follows, ending with total destruction of "the woman" who is "the great city".


Rev 17:18 "And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."Rose

[TheForgiven]

The woman "Israel" that is protected in the wilderness disappears from the story line until Rev 17:3.

Ahhh, I never noticed that before. And I think you're absolutely right! :thumb: What a connection! The woman Israel at first gives birth to the Messiah. But somewhere along the line she becomes corrupted. Perhaps that is what John meant when he says, "but the earth swallowed up the flood", and the earth represents Jerusalem. I wonder if John was trying to say that Jerusalem believed the false doctrine which Satan released. This would fit some of the accounts I read in a letter written by Joseph, a supposed document by him who purchased the burial tomb of Christ. In his letter, he speaks of how the Jews within Jerusalem sided with Nero Caesar, and believed Simon Magus was the real Messiah. Most reject this account and accuse it of being Gnostic. However a total lack of proof has left me wondering if that's true. But that could have been what John was trying to say; Jerusalem (earth) swallowed up the flood released by the Satan, and thus the woman became corrupted, eventually becoming the Mother of all Harlots and the Abomination of the earth.

If I can find Joseph's document (shouldn't be hard) I'll post some of his writings, and I'll leave you all to judge if it's genuine or not. :yo:

Joe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Ahhh, I never noticed that before. And I think you're absolutely right! :thumb: What a connection! The woman Israel at first gives birth to the Messiah. But somewhere along the line she becomes corrupted.
Hey Joe,

Rose is my wife. She has been carefully walking through Revelation verse by verse and letting the images form in her mind as if she were seeing what John saw. The effects are very powerful. Revelation becomes like a movie or a play on a stage. She has become very sensative to patterns that link things together. That's why she noticed that the Women in Rev 12 left the scene (exit stage right) by going "into the wilderness" and neither a woman nor the wilderness was mentioned again until John was carried into the wilderness to see the Whore.


The connection now seems really obvious, but it didn't make sense when she first suggested it because I thought that the woman had to have the same character as her children, and her children were Christians. But then I realized that her children were called "the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." So I saw that she is Israel, and the "remnant of her seed" were the first Jewish Christians. And this fits perfectly with the teaching of the whole New Testament that only a remnant would be saved from ethnic Israel:
Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Romans 11:1-5 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. As an aside, Paul proved that God did not "cast away his people" by saying "look at me! I'm an Israelite and I'm saved in Jesus!" In other words, he was stating that God was not excluding the Jews from salvation in Christ. They can be saved in Christ just like Gentiles. Romans 11 has absolutely nothing to do with a future "group salvation" of a Middle Eastern ethnic politcal nation.



So getting back to the topic at hand ... :focus: ... it looks to me like the transformation of Blessed Israel (kept by God from utter corruption until the Messiah was born) into the Harlot followed the same old pattern we saw throughout the Old Testament. For example:
Isaiah 1:21-24 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers. 22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water: 23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them. 24 Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies: Examples could be greatly multiplied.


I am not completely certain yet, but it seems like the transformation of Israel into the Harlot happened when God removed the RESTRAINT that He kept upon the wickedness in Israel until the Messiah accomplished His purpose:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. I think in this context the "Temple of God" refers to the literal Temple in Jerusalem that was run by corrupt and apostate priests who ran around God's Temple as if they owned the place, as if they were God Himself. Note the timing links to the first century coming of Christ in judgment on Jerusalem, and so this text fits with the entire prophetic complex revealed in Joel, Daniel, Revelation, and the Olivet Discourse. Thus we have an independent witness of how Israel, once so very blessed by God (clothed with the sun!) had become the Harlot in the wilderness. Note also that the "son of perdition" speaks of the False Prophet of Revelation who worked lying signs and wonders (Rev 19:20). The time markers match. The thematic elements match. It seems like a pretty good intererpretation. But no one has challenge it yet, so I don't know if it will stand under scrutiny.



Perhaps that is what John meant when he says, "but the earth swallowed up the flood", and the earth represents Jerusalem. I wonder if John was trying to say that Jerusalem believed the false doctrine which Satan released. This would fit some of the accounts I read in a letter written by Joseph, a supposed document by him who purchased the burial tomb of Christ. In his letter, he speaks of how the Jews within Jerusalem sided with Nero Caesar, and believed Simon Magus was the real Messiah. Most reject this account and accuse it of being Gnostic. However a total lack of proof has left me wondering if that's true. But that could have been what John was trying to say; Jerusalem (earth) swallowed up the flood released by the Satan, and thus the woman became corrupted, eventually becoming the Mother of all Harlots and the Abomination of the earth.

If I can find Joseph's document (shouldn't be hard) I'll post some of his writings, and I'll leave you all to judge if it's genuine or not. :yo:

Joe
I would like to know more of that document. We can often glean a lot of insight into the historical situation regardless of the theological errors.

As for the earth swallowing the flood. I agree that a "flood" can be associtated with water and water is linked to the Word, especially in Jewish tradition (which is big in Revelation). But it feels a bit like a stretch. My first thought is that the "flood" represents a flood of soldiers, an invasion from a foreign army. But I'm not sure yet. I'll have to give it some more thought.

Richard

[TheForgiven]

As for the earth swallowing the flood. I agree that a "flood" can be associtated with water and water is linked to the Word, especially in Jewish tradition (which is big in Revelation). But it feels a bit like a stretch. My first thought is that the "flood" represents a flood of soldiers, an invasion from a foreign army. But I'm not sure yet. I'll have to give it some more thought.

I'd have to read it again, but I thought it said that the flood came out of Satan's mouth, or was it demons that looked like frogs, in an attempt to over-take the woman. That to me sounds like false doctrine. One such doctrine was that of the Gnostics, of whom the father of the Gnostics was Simon Magus, whom Peter rebuked for wanting to buy the gift of God (The ability to bestow the Holy Spirit upon anyone whom he would lay his hands on). But I could be wrong. And I agree that in Daniel's vision, when he speaks of the city and the temple being destroyed with a flood, represented the armies which destroyed her. This would have the same effect as Noah's destruction when the water destroyed sin from the world; the same with Sodom and Gomorrah.

Okay, I'll post some writings of Joseph. Be back in a few.

Joe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I'd have to read it again, but I thought it said that the flood came out of Satan's mouth, or was it demons that looked like frogs, in an attempt to over-take the woman. That to me sounds like false doctrine.
You are correct. I didn't think about that. The flood comes "out of his mouth" and the only other occurrence of that phrase in Revelation is to describe the sword that comes out of the mouth of Christ. And we know, of course, that the sword represents the True Doctrine of the Word of God, so I retract my statement that it "seems like a it of a stretch." You interpretation may well be correct, though I still need to think about it more. But in any case, thanks for the additional instight! Its very helpful. :thumb:



One such doctrine was that of the Gnostics, of whom the father of the Gnostics was Simon Magus, whom Peter rebuked for wanting to buy the gift of God (The ability to bestow the Holy Spirit upon anyone whom he would lay his hands on). But I could be wrong. And I agree that in Daniel's vision, when he speaks of the city and the temple being destroyed with a flood, represented the armies which destroyed her. This would have the same effect as Noah's destruction when the water destroyed sin from the world; the same with Sodom and Gomorrah.
Yeah, those seem to be the two primary possibilities - a flood of false doctrine, or a flood of invading armies.



Okay, I'll post some writings of Joseph. Be back in a few.

Joe
Yeah, I'd like to learn more about that doc. It sounds like it will be helpful.

Richard

[TheForgiven]

My apologies for taking so long. I'm searching for the website that contained many writings not included with Christian Literature; in this case, the writing of Joseph which may have been a fake. However, I did come across a document called "The Acts of Peter", which tells the story of Peter's final days when he faced Nero and Simon. Ironically, it was a Herod (Or Jewish ruler) who convinced Nero to have Peter killed. However, the document I'm searching fore contained the death accounts of Peter and Paul. For now, here's a portion of Simon declaring himself to be the Son of God, and Peter's final days. I've included the link: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/actspeter.html



XVI. Now when the night fell, Peter, while yet waking, beheld Jesus clad in a vesture of brightness, smiling and saying unto him: Already is much people of the brotherhood returned through me and through the signs which thou hast wrought in my name. But thou shalt have a contest of the faith upon the sabbath that cometh, and many more of the Gentiles and of the Jews shall be converted in my name unto me who was reproached and mocked and spat upon. For I will be present with thee when thou askest for signs and wonders, and thou shalt convert many: but thou shalt have Simon opposing thee by the works of his father; yet all his works shall be shown to be charms and contrivances of sorcery. But now slack thou not, and whomsoever I shall send unto thee thou shalt establish in my name. And when it was light, he told the brethren how the Lord had appeared unto him and what he had commanded him

XXIII. Now the brethren were gathered together, and all that were in Rome, and took places every one for a piece of gold: there came together also the senators and the prefects and those in authority. And Peter came and stood in the midst, and all cried out: Show us, O Peter, who is thy God and what is his greatness which hath given thee confidence. Begrudge not the Romans; they are lovers of the gods. We have had proof of Simon, let us have it of thee; convince us, both of you, whom we ought truly to believe. And as they said these things, Simon also came in, and standing in trouble of mind at Peter's side, at first he looked at him.


And after long silence Peter said: Ye men of Rome, be ye true judges unto us, for I say that I have believed on the living and true God; and I promise to give you proofs of him, which are known unto me, as many among you also can bear witness. For ye see that this man is now rebuked and silent, knowing that I drove him out of Judaea because of the deceits which he practised upon Eubula, an honourable and simple woman, by his art magic; and being driven out from thence, he is come hither, thinking to escape notice among you; and lo, he standeth face to face with me. Say now, Simon, didst thou not at Jerusalem fall at my feet and Paul's, when thou sawest the healings that were wrought by our hands, and say: I pray you take of me a payment as much as ye will, that I may be able to lay hands on men and do such mighty works? And we when we heard it cursed thee, saying: Dost thou think to tempt us as if we desired to possess money? And now, fearest thou not at all? My name is Peter, because the Lord Christ vouchsafed to call me 'prepared for all things': for I trust in the living God by whom I shall put down thy sorceries. Now let him do in your presence the wonders which he did aforetime: and what I have now said of him, will ye not believe it?

But Simon, when he saw them all instant with him, stood silent; and thereafter, when he saw the people silent and looking upon him, Simon cried out, saying: Ye men of Rome, if ye behold the dead man arise, will ye cast Peter out of the city? And all the people said: We will not only cast him out, but on the very instant will we burn him with fire.


Then Simon went to the head of the dead man and stooped down and thrice raised himself up (or, and said thrice: Raise thyself), and showed the people that he (the dead) lifted his head and moved it, and opened his eyes and bowed himself a little unto Simon. And straightway they began to ask for wood and torches, wherewith to burn Peter. But Peter receiving strength of Christ, lifted up his voice and said unto them that cried out against him: Now see I, ye people of Rome, that ye are -I must not say fools and vain, so long as your eyes and your ears and your hearts are blinded. How long shall your understanding be darkened? see ye not that ye are bewitched, supposing that a dead man is raised, who hath not lifted himself up? It would have sufficed me, ye men of Rome, to hold my peace and die without speaking, and to leave you among the deceits of this world; but I have the chastisement of fire unquenchable before mine eyes. If therefore it seem good unto you, let the dead man speak, let him arise if he liveth, let him loose his jaw that is bound, with his hands, let him call upon his mother, let him say unto you that cry out: Wherefore cry ye? let him beckon unto us with his hand. If now ye would see that he is dead, and yourselves bewitched, let this man depart from the bier, who hath persuaded you to depart from Christ, and ye shall see that the dead man is such as ye saw him brought hither.

Simon is then convicted of being a fake. But he returns and thus the account continues:


But Simon the magician, after a few days were past, promised the multitude to convict Peter that he believed not in the true God but was deceived. And when he did many lying wonders, they that were firm in the faith derided him. For in diningchambers he made certain spirits enter in, which were only an appearance, and not existing in truth. And what should I more say? though he had oft-times been convicted of sorcory, he made lame men seem whole for a little space, and blind likewise, and once he appeared to make many dead to live and move, as he did with Nicostratus (Gk. Stratonicus). But Peter followed him throughout and convicted him always unto the beholders: and when he now made a sorry figure and was derided by the people of Rome and disbelieved for that he never succeeded m the things which he promised to perform, being in such a plight at last he said to them: Men of Rome, ye think now that Peter hath prevailed over me, as more powerful, and ye pay more heed to him: ye are deceived. For to-morrow I shall forsake you, godless and impious that ye are, and fly up unto God whose Power I am, though I am become weak. Whereas, then, ye have fallen, I am He that standeth, and I shall go up to my Father and say unto him: Me also, even thy son that standeth, have they desired to pull down; but I consented not unto them, and am returned back unto myself.

XXXII. And already on the morrow a great multitude assembled at the Sacred Way to see him flying. And Peter came unto the place, having seen a vision (or, to see the sight), that he might convict him in this also; for when Simon entered into Rome, he amazed the multitudes by flying: but Peter that convicted him was then not yet living at Rome: which city he thus deceived by illusion, so that some were carried away by him (amazed at him).

This is a lengthy document; I'd suggest you read it from the link.

Joe