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Charisma
11-02-2011, 09:44 AM
In II Timothy 2:24 – 3:9, Paul instructed Timothy in how the Lord’s servant should respond to two different types of opposition. A servant of the Lord was not to quarrel with either type, but he was not to deal with all opposition the same way.

In chapter 2:24-26 Paul wrote: 'And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in meekness correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they will come to the full knowledge of the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.' To the first type of opposition, the Lord’s servant was to gently, meekly offer correction in hopes of seeing God grant repentance and deliverance.

Then in the verses that follow, Paul begins to address the other type of opposition with these words: 'But know this, in the last days perilous times will come:' The type of opposition that would arise in the last days must not be dealt with in the same way as those addressed in the earlier verses. These ungodly opponents are described this way: 'For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power.' Paul’s instruction for the Lord’s servant when faced with this type of opposition is markedly different: 'from such people turn away!' Leave them alone!

Paul knew that attempts to correct such people would be in vain. He goes on to characterize this type of opposition as being men like Jannes and Jambres who opposed Moses. Such men are opposed to the truth itself, whose minds have been corrupted, and have been disapproved concerning the faith. Paul reminded Timothy that such opponents folly would become evident to all. The Lord’s servant must let such warped men alone and leave them to their own self destruction. Men who are opposed to the truth itself will not be corrected with truth. Sound doctrine will not fix those who have no use for it because it does not suit their own carnal desires. They will deliberately turn their ears away from everything sound and gather to themselves teachers who will reinforce their own lusts with the license of false freedom.

Attempting to correct those who refuse the love of the truth is 'casting pearls before swine'. God Himself sends such people a strong delusion rather than granting them repentance. It is better to discern the difference in the type of opposition we are facing than to make the mistake of correcting the wrong crowd and wind up trampled in the attempt. The Lord’s servants are to gently and meekly correct some who oppose them, but when the opposition is of the nature of those in the last days, 'from such turn away' will keep the Lord’s servant out of harm’s way.


In the last paragraph the writer states:
'God Himself sends such people a strong delusion rather than granting them repentance.'


Where in scripture is the support for this statment?


Would a person know they had passed the point where repentance is possible?



My first thought is, that even though God 'gave them up' to what they wanted to do, and a fairly long list of consequences follows, Paul moves swiftly on to ask whether his listeners have missed the fact that it's the goodness of God which 'leads' them to repentance. (Romans 1:16 - 2:4).

Richard Amiel McGough
11-02-2011, 10:31 AM
In II Timothy 2:24 – 3:9, Paul instructed Timothy in how the Lord’s servant should respond to two different types of opposition. A servant of the Lord was not to quarrel with either type, but he was not to deal with all opposition the same way.

In chapter 2:24-26 Paul wrote: 'And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in meekness correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they will come to the full knowledge of the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.' To the first type of opposition, the Lord’s servant was to gently, meekly offer correction in hopes of seeing God grant repentance and deliverance.

Then in the verses that follow, Paul begins to address the other type of opposition with these words: 'But know this, in the last days perilous times will come:' The type of opposition that would arise in the last days must not be dealt with in the same way as those addressed in the earlier verses. These ungodly opponents are described this way: 'For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power.' Paul’s instruction for the Lord’s servant when faced with this type of opposition is markedly different: 'from such people turn away!' Leave them alone!

Paul knew that attempts to correct such people would be in vain. He goes on to characterize this type of opposition as being men like Jannes and Jambres who opposed Moses. Such men are opposed to the truth itself, whose minds have been corrupted, and have been disapproved concerning the faith. Paul reminded Timothy that such opponents folly would become evident to all. The Lord’s servant must let such warped men alone and leave them to their own self destruction. Men who are opposed to the truth itself will not be corrected with truth. Sound doctrine will not fix those who have no use for it because it does not suit their own carnal desires. They will deliberately turn their ears away from everything sound and gather to themselves teachers who will reinforce their own lusts with the license of false freedom.

Attempting to correct those who refuse the love of the truth is 'casting pearls before swine'. God Himself sends such people a strong delusion rather than granting them repentance. It is better to discern the difference in the type of opposition we are facing than to make the mistake of correcting the wrong crowd and wind up trampled in the attempt. The Lord’s servants are to gently and meekly correct some who oppose them, but when the opposition is of the nature of those in the last days, 'from such turn away' will keep the Lord’s servant out of harm’s way.


In the last paragraph the writer states:
'God Himself sends such people a strong delusion rather than granting them repentance.'


Where in scripture is the support for this statment?


Would a person know they had passed the point where repentance is possible?



My first thought is, that even though God 'gave them up' to what they wanted to do, and a fairly long list of consequences follows, Paul moves swiftly on to ask whether his listeners have missed the fact that it's the goodness of God which 'leads' them to repentance. (Romans 1:16 - 2:4).
Hey there Charisma!

Nice to see you starting your own threads. This is an interesting topic.

One note for future reference: Whenever quoting from another person's work, please post a link to the source. I Googled the title and found a source here:

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=41540&forum=34

Is this where you found the article?

Now on to your questions:

1) There is no verse that says exactly that. I think it is an inference drawn from various verses, such as these two.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

So it is understood from these verses that it is God who either "grants repentance unto life" or "sends a strong delusion unto death." Some folks probably see them as pretty good Calvinist proof texts.

Now would a person know? Ha! Excellent question. I would think not. Just look at the Harold Camping cult. Those folks still say that every thing Harold taught was directed by God. There's no way to get through to "true believers" because reality itself is rejected.

Concerning the "goodness of God" - Look at the context. Paul was speaking to believers. According to these Scriptures, it looks like God only leads the Elect to repentance.

Great chatting!

Richard

RC Christian
11-17-2011, 12:28 AM
That can't be...that would imply that Pharaoh and Judas...and all those first born Egyptian kids...are you saying they weren't given the opportunity to utilize free will??? Oh yeah...never mind.

Charisma
11-17-2011, 09:16 AM
Hi Richard,

Yes, that's where I found the article.

I wouldn't say it's purpose has anything to do with Calvinism.

I don't agree with your assertion that a person cannot know they are being deceived. They may need to ask God to show them on which points they are deceived, but Paul states that they start out knowing 'the truth', and consciously choose not to acknowledge the fulness of it (the truth). I'm sure you 'know' which verses say this:

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Richard Amiel McGough
11-17-2011, 11:16 AM
Hi Richard,

Yes, that's where I found the article.

I wouldn't say it's purpose has anything to do with Calvinism.

I don't agree with your assertion that a person cannot know they are being deceived. They may need to ask God to show them on which points they are deceived, but Paul states that they start out knowing 'the truth', and consciously choose not to acknowledge the fulness of it (the truth). I'm sure you 'know' which verses say this:

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Good morning Charisma,

If those verses don't prove Calvinism, what you do you think they mean? Doesn't the Bible say that God must "grant" repentance? What happens to those to whom he doesn't grant it? Can they repent and get saved if God doesn't grant them repentance? I don't think we can say that God grants repentance to everyone since then the Bible would not say "if God perhaps will grant them repentance." So this seems like one of the most powerful proof-texts for Calvinism ... unless maybe you could say that God is good and so he will grant repentance to those who really really want it. Do we say that God grants repentance to the "good sinners" as opposed to those wicked sinners who don't want to repent? Of course not! That would contradict a host of Christian doctrines. There are no "good sinners" who want to repent, for "there is none that seeks God" (Rom 3:11). So this verse really needs to be dealt with, I would think.

Now you wrote: "I don't agree with your assertion that a person cannot know they are being deceived."

I tihnk you got it backwards. It's not so much an "assertion" as a question "How would a person know if they were deceived?" and you have not been able to give an answer. You merely assert that a person could know by asking God. But how could that work? A deveived person might think they are asking God but are not really. For example, a Muslim, according to you, would not be "asking God" for truth is he prayed to Allah. I'm guessing you will say then that God knows the intent of the Muslim's heart, that he is seeking the True God even if he mistakenly prays to Allah. OK - that's great. But the Muslim could say the same thing about you! Allah knows the intent of your heart, and will overlook the fact that you mistakenly are praying to the false god of Christianity.

Do you not see the symmetry of this situation? I have been asking for a way a person could discern between truth and falsehood in these matters, and all you have done is repeat Christian dogmas which are formally identical to Muslim dogmas and so do not help answer the question.

Great chatting!

Richard