99% Percent protest Wall Street, Corporations, and Big Banks

[TheForgiven]

Well, I'll just have to take Richard's advice and talk about something other than religion. :lol:

I liked the video you showed on the biblewheel talking about corruption with our government and how Politicians are being bought out by big corporations.

For 30 years, big banks have had their way, and now the U.S. economy is tanking because of their greed. The top 400 richest American's are sitting on roughly 60% percent of America's capital, leaving the rest of America to fight over the remaining 40% percent. Needless to say, this does very little for wages, government programs, or even small businesses. So what can we do? Well, there's only one agency with enough legal muscle to move some of that wealth back into the pockets of those who actually keep the economy moving; taxing them is the only way. If they are not going to invest money back into the economy by hiring more people, and paying higher wages, then taxing them is the only way.

Now to make matters even worse, we've got big businesses moving overseas in search of cheap labor. This smells like Greed...Greed....Greed! What ever happened to working for a living? Now it seems like these big corporations only care about stock prices for the shareholders. Why would I care about someone else's share if I'm not the one benefiting from it? What does a big bank like Bank of America have to resort to charging its customers a $5.00 dollar fee simply to ensure their shareholders make more money? Since when is it the responsibility of the consumer to pay dividends or profits for the shareholders? I mean, aren't they already making enough money from mortgage loans? 6% percent on a 30 year mortgage, equating to three times the value of the house, and they're broke???? :confused: Give me a freaking break!

And what about the speaker of the house? Doesn't he realize just how many people dislike him right now? I mean, we're not talking 50/50 or 30/70! We're talking about more than 90% percent of the population really dislikes (rather, hates) this guys, and his little side kick! Just who in the hell do these guys think they are?

I'll tell you what boys and girls. The only way the Republicans well get re-elected in office is if they steal the next election. This means making it harder for the poor and middle class to vote. We see them doing that already with some states resorting to a $20.00 dollar fee just to get a government photo-ID so they can register to vote. What's next? Removing our right to free speech so they can stop hearing us bitch all the time?

America! It's time to stand up against these guys. Merely protesting them is not enough. It's time to take serious action. WE'VE GOT TO GET THE WORD OUT TO VOTE AGAINST REPUBLICANS.

Now, some of you rich boys (if there are any on here) may think it's unfair. But guess what. You don't know what fair is until you've had to work 70+ hours a week with little to show for it! I'm sick and tired of playing according to corporate rules. They purposely pay low wages to force the middle and lower class into relying on credit. So not only do they profit when you buy their products. They profit when you have to borrow money to buy their products; that's like getting paid twice! And it's very damaging to the American economy. Want an example?

Most businesses now days require a college degree before being hired. Huh oh! That means you have to apply for a student loan. Now guess who's forking up the money for you to attend college? The same knuckle headed groups who are "intending" to hire you. Then you get stiffed with a $50,000 thousand dollar student loan, only to be hired by a company that pays you just enough to keep your head above water. So they make money by working you to death, AND they make money by the interest you're paying from their invested money for your student loan.

I've finally learned that this is the number one reason why corporations don't like paying higher wages. They can earn money twice from a single transaction; keeping you down so you have to rely on credit, and by working you butt off (doing more with less) so that THEY don't have to work!

And we're supposed to be proud of Capitalism?? Why? What's so good about a system of economics if only a small handful benefit from it? Take a look at this pay scale, and ANYONE, please tell me why or how capitalism is supposed to be so damn good!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7Hfi0aKM9Zo/TWV9_uWF5BI/AAAAAAAABM4/cbpRyH6SowQ/s400/Dividends+vs+Wages.jpg

Corporate CEO's have seen a huge increase in their pay, while the middle class has gone nearly nowhere since the late 1970's! And everyone is wondering why middle class America is pissed off! All the money keeps flowing up to the top. And yet they say, "stop being lazy and go get a job!" What a bunch of non-sense! How can 150,000 million American's find a job if there are less jobs available for everyone, especially if they are all going overseas?

If you haven't heard, Whirlpool is laying off 1,700 employees this month. Guess where they're going? Either to Mexico or to China! And this is the company that took millions in dollars of bail-out money from the tax-payers!

Folks! I'm serious when I say this! It's time to fight back! Because now even the military is getting hit hard by this. The Corporate mentality has worked its way into the military, and now they're playing the same lay-off games as we see happening to teachers, firemen, policemen, etc. Military members are being administratively kicked out after serving just short of 20 years of service. They've increased the physical fitness standards to the point that thousands are suffering serious career ending injuries. And when you get injured, and are unable to meet standards, your career is over. No severance pay; not thank you for your service; Just GET THE "F" out!

It's going to get much worse before it gets better. CAST THE VOTE folks! VOTE DEMOCRATIC! IF you vote Republican, then you are leaving the poor and the middle class to their poverty, or even death!

Joe

[heb13-13]

Deleted, except this because this is largely a waste of time if you are not going to blame both sides of the aisle.

This says it all and it doesn't matter who is in the White House.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO2eh6f5Go0

How the Fed Engineered the Great Depression.

http://www.intrepidreport.com/archives/2271

[Silence]

I agree with Heb 13-13, this is not a problem of political parties, it is a problem with human nature. I saw a cartoon in a magazine one time that does a good job of explaining why billions of dollars is not enough for some people, (or groups of people). I think it was in an outdoor magazine but it makes a good analogy.

Two men are running away from a raging grizzly bear, and one of them turns to the other and asks "Can a man out-run a grizzly?" . To which his counterpart says "Heck, I ain't worried about that! All I gotta do is out-run you!" .

When people get rich they get scared of being without, and they also identify with their money, so losing that is the same as losing themselves. If they have competition (who doesn't in capitalism?) then, when their competitor makes 10 billion in a certain length of time, they had better make at least that much or more, or their competitor will "out run them" and they will be "eaten up". It's not enough that they have millions or more socked away in personal accounts. They need to hold on to what they have. The book of Habakkuk calls it "building your nest on high, that you made be delivered from the hand of evil". It's always been a problem. The 49 year Jubilee period in the bible was one way of trying to equalize things and stop this from happening, but even then there was a warning not to get stingy just because the Jubilee was coming up.

[TheForgiven]

I know that both sides (Democratic and Republican) are at fault here. But we need jobs right now; we can't wait 13 more months. And even if the Republican's regain the House and the Senate, that by no means is a great hope for the middle class or poor to get jobs; GOOD PAYING jobs! Republican's (and many Democrats) are too greedy.

What the 99% percent, in a nut shell, are fighting for is a level playing field. Without that, it's impossible for the majority of American's who simply want to work for a living without getting rich, to hav a fair shot at life. We're not talking about wealth here; we're talking about life.

Greed causes interest rates to sky rocket. Greed causes businesses to overprice their stocks, or their products. Greed buys corruptions in the House and Senate. And out of all this, who is the ones always hurt by greed? The middle class and the poor.

Middle class workers and the poor are not asking to get rich. They are not asking to get paid hundreds of dollars an hour. They simply want to live a simple life, earning a fair paycheck, working 40 hours a week, and spending time with their families. But Capitalism has made this nearly impossible. Businesses want the working class to work holidays, weekends, and long hours throughout the day. Sure the long hours pay overtime, but lately even that's worthless. All they did was adjust the wages to accomodate the overtime pay in the net worth of working 40 hours a week; they reduced (or rather refused to increase wages) the pay scale, and fired a lot of full-time slots, relying on part-timers, to save money on labor.

My problem is this. If someone feels that have to have millions upon millions, while their employees, be it here or abroad, have to live paycheck to paycheck, while also relying on home loans to purchase simple products, then that business is corrupted.

I'm all about the business executive making a very good living, but NEVER at the cost of their employees. And let's be honest here. The economy is not based on how much money the top 1% percent have. The economy is based on how much the middle class and the poor spend. Their spending comes from disposable income (what's left after the bills are paid). But the cost of living keeps going up, gas keeps going up (another example of greed), food keeps going up, Corporate earnings keep going up, but everything and everybody else either stay the same, decline, or lose their jobs all together.

What's causing this? The top 1% percent are sitting on 5 to 7 trillion dollars in wealth. Only about 40% percent of their wealth circles the economy. So the top 1% percent have the middle class and the poor fighting over 40% percent of the entire nations wealth. That's not enough to sustain an economy.

So unless corporations increase wages and higer more people so that we can spend the economy back to good health, then taxing them is the only way. That way the government can create publics sector jobs, which in turn dramatically improves the economy. Rich idiots stocking up on wealth destroys the economy, and gives them too much power. The purpose of government is to keep businesses from controlling the people, which is what we've seen happening for the past 30 years.

POWER TO THE PEOPLE has gone to POWER TO THE CEO'S AND EXEC's. It's time to take back America and regain our freedom from greed and corruption. But if you vote Republican, then all hope is lost. Democrats aren't perfect, but at least they are the only ones batting for us. The GOP? They are all for themselves, and their payers (CEO'S). And since when should the 1% percent have more say-so than the 99% percent? NEVER!

Joe

[heb13-13]

I know that both sides (Democratic and Republican) are at fault here. But we need jobs right now; we can't wait 13 more months. And even if the Republican's regain the House and the Senate, that by no means is a great hope for the middle class or poor to get jobs; GOOD PAYING jobs! Republican's (and many Democrats) are too greedy.

Hi Joe,

I really don't get involved in these types of discussions because they usually end up in a blame game, party spirit and class warfare among other things. And my God is not behind any of that despite what the religionists say.

I just don't want to play the "puppet masters" games.

Joe, do you remember Nebuchadnezzar's music in the book of Daniel?

"Then an herald cried aloud, To you it is commanded, O people, nations, and languages, That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up: And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace" (Dan 3:4-6).

Everyone has their music, Joe. And it comes in many forms. The religious world has their music (catch phrases) such as "God is great" or "Praise the Lord" and each time they are repeated, they watch you to see if you will "fall down and worship". The Catholic Church has their music (Hail Mary), and on and on it goes. Every religion has their instruments, tunes and music.

Politicians have their music, too. Remember, "Hail Caesar" or "Heil Hitler"? Many people who thought they would never say that, did.

And the Democrats know just the right "tune" to play to arouse your emotions. The Republicans do the same thing. With one side it is "You are going to lose your pensions, your jobs, your benefits, etc, etc", with the other side it is "The Constitution is being ignored, we are turning into a dictatorship, we are losing our rights, judges are overturning what the majority just voted on, etc, etc).

Each side knows equally how to play the "tune" that mobilizes their millions. And the puppet masters keep the masses busy dancing to their music and fighting the "other side".

Jesus said, "Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like? They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept" (Luke 7:31-32).


Don't you think the Pharisees were quite insulted by Jesus when He said, "Ye are of your father, the Devil (John 8:44)? Their fathers were prophets and they claimed to worship the God of the Bible and no doubt their music (catch phrases) came right out of the Old Testament. And they claimed that they worshipped the one true God.


They were greatly offended by Jesus. "Then took they up stones to cast at him..." (John 8:59).


Jesus wouldn't dance, Joe and neither will I. They can all play their music and pipe their flutes, but I'm not dancing.


I want to know what I'm dancing to before I dance and I first want to know who the God behind the dance is.


"Bow or Burn" is the choice, Joe. I won't bow...


Think about who you are dancing to...


Rick

[TheForgiven]

Interesting metaphor you're using, and I certainly respect your decision not to "bow". But I'm not bowing to the Democrats because they are playing the sound I like to hear. I'm bowing to them because they are our only voice right now. The Republicans gave rich corporations 8 years of welfare, while the middle class and poor got nearly nothing but higher gas prices, low wages, and in the last 2 years, teachers, firemen, military, and other Public Sector employees were let go; they were fired. Thousands have lost their life-time pensions because of Wall street. Thousands have lost their homes, their mortgages, and even more, their very lives. But there's only one side to blame for this, and that's the GOP who have let corporations get away with murder. It was the GOP who allowed, during the Bush administration, to stiff the economy with excessively high gas prices. They used every single middle eastern conflict as an excuse to raise prices. They used China as an excuse to raise gas prices because they would have us believe that all of a sudden, they were using more gas than before. Yet in the end, it was all BS! It was all about hedge funds and speculations that allowed the Big Oil companies, and the rich corporations throwing money in shares for Big Oil so they could all capitalize on the hedge funds they created around oil. THAT is the secret they didn't want the 99% percent to know. And it wasn't just oil they did this to; home mortgages were suffering the same problem, although that was not with the GOP, but the Democrats who were at fault there. The Democrats were simply trying to make it easier for everyone to own a home. What they didn't expect was for Wall street and Big Banks to resort to loan scams imposed on those (the middle class and poor) who wanted to buy a home. I'm one of those idiots who got sucked into their scam. My house was sold at 6% percent because that was the going rate. I didn't have enough money to put down (usually 20%). So what did they do? They over-appraised the value of the house at $148,000 dollars, with a sell price of $135,000. This made it seem like that I had equity built from the get-go. One year later, and BAM!!!! The bubble busted (so they say), and all of a sudden, my house isn't work JACK! Now it's only worth $128,000 dollars, which just happens to be EXACTLY what I owe. Meanwhile, Bank of America has collected more than $48,000 thousand dollars in interest payments, which means if I refinanced my home at the current payoff value, I just lost $48,000 dollars. THAT is the kind of scam that I'm ticked off with big banks, big oil, and Wall street. So I've decided not to refinance because if I lose my job, then I want Bank of America to be stuck with a home they cannot sell. Why would I want to cause problems for an honest bank (if there is such a thing)? :lol:

Bank of America screwed me, and I'm not pleased about it at all. If they were honest enough, they would refinance my house under a new contract, and apply some of the Interest they've earned over the past 5 years. THEN I would consider them an honest bank. But unfortunately, that isn't going to happen. I know they want me to refinance under a new loan with another financial institution, but I'm not budging. I want them to lose when I go under. IF THAT HAPPENS. :lol:

So it's not that any particular side is playing the music I want to hear. I'm siding with the only side that is doing anything about my hardship. Because the GOP, such as Mit Romney, has no solution to my problem. You know what his music says? He says that those suffering from foreclosure need to hurry up and get out, so that investors can swipe my house really cheap, and then turn around and either rent it or sell it for THEIR profit. THAT'S HIS ANSWER???? And you want me to listen to that tune? Why would I vote for a side that has no contributions to the middle class?

Not to be rude with you my friend, but you are merely playing the pacifist in this. And we need voices who are going to listen, and not pass over everything as if they weren't affected; unless of course you're one of those greedy folk who extort money for a living. Are you?

Joe

[heb13-13]

Interesting metaphor you're using, and I certainly respect your decision not to "bow". But I'm not bowing to the Democrats because they are playing the sound I like to hear. I'm bowing to them because they are our only voice right now.

Yes, I have heard that before from both sides and at least you admit you ARE bowing.


The Republicans gave rich corporations 8 years of welfare, while the middle class and poor got nearly nothing but higher gas prices, low wages, and in the last 2 years, teachers, firemen, military, and other Public Sector employees were let go; they were fired. Thousands have lost their life-time pensions because of Wall street. Thousands have lost their homes, their mortgages, and even more, their very lives.


But there's only one side to blame for this, and that's the GOP

If you get a chance you should read The Naked Capitalist, The Way the World Really Works, and Tragedy and Hope (by Carroll Quiqley). I think you may find those books very enlightening regarding both Dem and Repubs.


So it's not that any particular side is playing the music I want to hear.

Yes, I think I understand what music you like to hear.


I'm siding with the only side that is doing anything about my hardship. Because the GOP, such as Mit Romney, has no solution to my problem. You know what his music says? He says that those suffering from foreclosure need to hurry up and get out, so that investors can swipe my house really cheap, and then turn around and either rent it or sell it for THEIR profit. THAT'S HIS ANSWER???? And you want me to listen to that tune? Why would I vote for a side that has no contributions to the middle class?

No Joe, I did not say that you should listen to anyone's "flutes". Did you miss my analogy? They are both playing the same music but different tunes. But most people are "tone deaf" and think their particular side's music is glorious.


Not to be rude with you my friend, but you are merely playing the pacifist in this. And we need voices who are going to listen, and not pass over everything as if they weren't affected;

No offense taken, but the scriptures don't teach pacifism. Jesus taught and lived non-resistance, not pacifism. Jesus did not protest, strike or do sit-ins to get His way or mobilize the masses against the God ordained authorities no matter how repugnant they were and He and the Apostles did not teach us to do those things. Did you forget that Israel was occupied by the Romans in Jesus' and the Apostle's time. Where did any of them engage in pacifism?


unless of course you're one of those greedy folk who extort money for a living. Are you?

Listening to the world's music causes people to make judgments like this upon others and your post makes all my points very clear.

Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. (2Ti 2:4-5)

The dangerous thing about imbibing this world's music and especially the political music is that eventually this "flavor" of "Christian" gets to the point where they think they need to use force to get what they want or keep from losing what they have. They are losing their life(style) so they seek to save their life(style) with the arm of the flesh and they end up losing it anyway, but more importantly they end up losing even more valuable things than a house or car or pension.

I wish you well, Joe and I probably should stop here.

Joe[/QUOTE]

[TheForgiven]

No offense taken, but the scriptures don't teach pacifism. Jesus taught and lived non-resistance, not pacifism. Jesus did not protest, strike or do sit-ins to get His way or mobilize the masses against the God ordained authorities no matter how repugnant they were and He and the Apostles did not teach us to do those things. Did you forget that Israel was occupied by the Romans in Jesus' and the Apostle's time. Where did any of them engage in pacifism?

Not entirely my friend. Have you forgotten what Jesus said to the Jews when He began lashing at them with a whip? He said, "It is written! My house shall be a house of prayer, but you have turned it into a den of theives". What do you think He meant by that? He wasn't talking about thieves who break in and steal from the temple market. He's talking about business men who used the temple as a market for financial profit, ripping people off. The old woman is one such example of His rebuke. Had Jerusalem shared its wealth like they were commanded to, instead of storing up wealth for their own profit, then their wouldn't be an old woman having less than a penny (penny in American worth).

You must also remember the Apostle James:

1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days. 4 Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. 5 You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as[b] in a day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.

Who was James warning here? Was it not the same Jews who Jesus condemned within the temple? James was warning them that their destruction was about to come up them because of the luxary they've enjoyed, while casting away the simple wage-earners as worthless. Notice how he says of the Jews, "Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud (den of thieves), cry out..." That's the same with what's happening to my country; the one I've served for 20 years, and I'm ashamed at how the rich folks continue to oppress the poor, paying them low wages, and ensuring that their lives are caught in a snare of financial burden and hardship. Although James was not talking about us or our country, the principals are the same.

The rich, who are afraid of being poor, will do all that they can within their power of governmental influence, to pass legislation to ensure their wealth in their constant attempts to oppress the poor. It is they who are the ones who establish a line of choices we make which are no choices at all. For choice is an illusion created by those with power, upon those without power. The poor are always oppressed by the wealthy, who nearly always end up ruining countries because of greed and corruption. The middle class and the poor only have one choice when it comes to oppression, and that's our voices. Yet our voices are not be heared by Wall Street nor the Republican party. The only voice they hear is the sound of their god which is marked, "In God We Trust". It is true that the only god they serve is the god of money and oppression.

As the scripture says, "Money is the root of all sorts of evil". While it is not the very evil itself, it is the root that causes greedy people to inflict all sorts of hardship and evil.



unless of course you're one of those greedy folk who extort money for a living. Are you?

Listening to the world's music causes people to make judgments like this upon others and your post makes all my points very clear.

I'm not merely taking the medias word for it my friend. I research the facts. Michael Moore, whom I used to dislike, has been found to be about 99% percent accurate. He was right about the war in Iraq; it was all about the oil, and all about Dick Cheney and his little side-kick friend, Rumsfeld, using war for financial gain. Dick Cheney owned a business supplying troops with worthless MRE's (Meals Ready to Eat), and other war-based equipment. Donal Rumself also owned shares in the war-profiteering department.

Why do we have so many deployed American solderis abroad? Some of it has to do with protecting our national security, specifically the global war on terrorism. But a great deal of it has to do with protecting American investments in countries like Korea, and Saudi Arabia. South Korea is loaded with American corporations over there, such as Michelin, Rebbok, Nike, Levis, etc. North Korea is not as much of a threat to America as it is American Corporations who are afraid of losing their "slave wages". And I've grown quite sick of American corporations exploiting overseas commerce in exchange for cheap labor, which is a huge slap in the face for the American worker.


Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. (2Ti 2:4-5)

So are you suggesting that we should ignore our civil rights as a citizen of this country and let the rich dig us deep into proverty? It's not like the 99% percent are advocating war here; they're merely expressing their right to free speech. And being a Christian does not mean be silent. Tame the tongue yes, but taming the tongue does not mean be silent. And I, as an American citizen, have a right as a Christian to voice my displeasure towards our government, just as St. James did to his.



The dangerous thing about imbibing this world's music and especially the political music is that eventually this "flavor" of "Christian" gets to the point where they think they need to use force to get what they want or keep from losing what they have. They are losing their life(style) so they seek to save their life(style) with the arm of the flesh and they end up losing it anyway, but more importantly they end up losing even more valuable things than a house or car or pension.

I wish you well, Joe and I probably should stop here.

Once again, a Christian doesn't entice others to engage in any type of war. Using the power and freedom of our voice is not advocating war. Protesting is also not advocating war. Or have you forgotten the Protestant movement? Was that not about rebellion against the Catholic Church because of greed and oppression? Or should the Christian then have backed down, and continued to be oppressed? No, they protested the corruption of the Church in England and eventually fled to the America's. Unfortunately, not without the rich continuing to influence our society, and even their's during their time. I'm not asking for a perfect country; I'm asking for a fair country, and one that honors the worker as much as the boss.

Joe

[heb13-13]

Not entirely my friend. Have you forgotten what Jesus said to the Jews when He began lashing at them with a whip? He said, "It is written! My house shall be a house of prayer, but you have turned it into a den of theives". What do you think He meant by that? He wasn't talking about thieves who break in and steal from the temple market. He's talking about business men who used the temple as a market for financial profit, ripping people off. The old woman is one such example of His rebuke. Had Jerusalem shared its wealth like they were commanded to, instead of storing up wealth for their own profit, then their wouldn't be an old woman having less than a penny (penny in American worth).

You must also remember the Apostle James:

1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days. 4 Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. 5 You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as[B] in a day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.

Who was James warning here? Was it not the same Jews who Jesus condemned within the temple? James was warning them that their destruction was about to come up them because of the luxary they've enjoyed, while casting away the simple wage-earners as worthless. Notice how he says of the Jews, "Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud (den of thieves), cry out..." That's the same with what's happening to my country; the one I've served for 20 years, and I'm ashamed at how the rich folks continue to oppress the poor, paying them low wages, and ensuring that their lives are caught in a snare of financial burden and hardship. Although James was not talking about us or our country, the principals are the same.

The rich, who are afraid of being poor, will do all that they can within their power of governmental influence, to pass legislation to ensure their wealth in their constant attempts to oppress the poor. It is they who are the ones who establish a line of choices we make which are no choices at all. For choice is an illusion created by those with power, upon those without power. The poor are always oppressed by the wealthy, who nearly always end up ruining countries because of greed and corruption. The middle class and the poor only have one choice when it comes to oppression, and that's our voices. Yet our voices are not be heared by Wall Street nor the Republican party. The only voice they hear is the sound of their god which is marked, "In God We Trust". It is true that the only god they serve is the god of money and oppression.

As the scripture says, "Money is the root of all sorts of evil". While it is not the very evil itself, it is the root that causes greedy people to inflict all sorts of hardship and evil.



I'm not merely taking the medias word for it my friend. I research the facts. Michael Moore, whom I used to dislike, has been found to be about 99% percent accurate. He was right about the war in Iraq; it was all about the oil, and all about Dick Cheney and his little side-kick friend, Rumsfeld, using war for financial gain. Dick Cheney owned a business supplying troops with worthless MRE's (Meals Ready to Eat), and other war-based equipment. Donal Rumself also owned shares in the war-profiteering department.

Why do we have so many deployed American solderis abroad? Some of it has to do with protecting our national security, specifically the global war on terrorism. But a great deal of it has to do with protecting American investments in countries like Korea, and Saudi Arabia. South Korea is loaded with American corporations over there, such as Michelin, Rebbok, Nike, Levis, etc. North Korea is not as much of a threat to America as it is American Corporations who are afraid of losing their "slave wages". And I've grown quite sick of American corporations exploiting overseas commerce in exchange for cheap labor, which is a huge slap in the face for the American worker.



So are you suggesting that we should ignore our civil rights as a citizen of this country and let the rich dig us deep into proverty? It's not like the 99% percent are advocating war here; they're merely expressing their right to free speech. And being a Christian does not mean be silent. Tame the tongue yes, but taming the tongue does not mean be silent. And I, as an American citizen, have a right as a Christian to voice my displeasure towards our government, just as St. James did to his.




Once again, a Christian doesn't entice others to engage in any type of war. Using the power and freedom of our voice is not advocating war. Protesting is also not advocating war. Or have you forgotten the Protestant movement? Was that not about rebellion against the Catholic Church because of greed and oppression? Or should the Christian then have backed down, and continued to be oppressed? No, they protested the corruption of the Church in England and eventually fled to the America's. Unfortunately, not without the rich continuing to influence our society, and even their's during their time. I'm not asking for a perfect country; I'm asking for a fair country, and one that honors the worker as much as the boss.

Joe

Peace to you Joe, I'm outta this thread. I never argue with Christians that trust in politics. Been there, done that many times but I just don't have the heart for it.


Rick

[TheForgiven]

Peace to you Joe, I'm outta this thread. I never argue with Christians that trust in politics. Been there, done that many times but I just don't have the heart for it.


Rick

Then I bid you farewell my friend. This Thread wasn't a discussion about religion; it was a general discussion about Politics. I don't believe that there's anything wrong with discussing politics. Much of our Constitutional rights comes from Christian virtues. And many within the Republican party claim to be Christian. Take Mike Huckabee who claims to be a Christian. I find it very astonishing that he supports the "you're on your own" mentality. Could you imagine what Jesus thinks about that? If He said to mankind, "you're on your own", how would anyone choose to follow someone who thinks that we are our own keeper?

As a Christian, we are to look out, not only for our own welfare, but the welfare of our neighbors. And as a citizen of the United States, we bare that same responsibility. Now I'm not talking about loaning money to a drug addict, or someone just looking for whiskey money. :lol: But I am talking about someone who maybe chooses to help the drug addict or the alcoholic. Of course, we could always adapt to the Republican philosophy of "you're on your own" or "tie your own shoes" or "if you're sick, and you can't afford it, then you're on your own". Remember what some chanted during the GOP Presidential debate when asked what they would do if a woman, who didn't have health insurance, suffered a near fatal accident? Some without the crowd yelled, "Let them die!" That was the cherry on top of the cake for me.

The rich want to remain rich, and I'm fine with that. I'm not faulting them for wanting to earn money. What I do fault them with is oppressing their employee's who are trying to do the same thing. A company does not need trillions of dollars, while their employee's remain on food stamps or other government hand outs.

My philosophy is this. America was founded on the basic principals (among many others) that if you work hard, be it at management or at labor, you are entitled to an invaluable life. The GOP, however, does not adapt to this view. They believe that ONLY, and I stress ONLY, Executives and CEO's are entitled to in invaluable life. With them, it's all about the math; how much money can they earn, NOT just from company products or services, but by interest payments. VERY HIGH interest payments.

Example: A car salesman wants someone to buy his car. A customer expresses great interest in buying the car, but is short on cash. So the car salesmen offers him a linen of credit. So the customer ends up taking a loan out for the car AND ends up paying interest. So now the salesmen ends up profiting from the loan AND the car. But in this case, the salesman doesn't want to rely on long-term monthly payments to make a profit. So he cons the guys into being enslaved with a long term HIGH INTEREST RATE loan, enabling the loaner the ability to obtain quicker profits. This is what Bank of America did with their home mortgages. Their interest rates were so high, despite even my near-perfect credit, that they ended up amassing almost 60% percent of their loan within 5 years, leaving me with 25 years left on a 30 year mortgage. What does this equate to? Three to four times the value of the house. And this is happening all over our country. And THAT is the reason why the bubble busted, yet the GOP blames it on folks buying what they could no afford. This was a flat out lie by the GOP who failed to acknowledge that it wasn't the customers who failed in their responsibilities; it was the financial institutions who borrowed money from overseas so that they could supply Mortgage loans, resulting in 3% percent of 6% percent to go to them for profit, AND to the foreign financial institution. Now to make matters even worse, Bank of America lied about the value of their homes, so on paper, each home was worth a lot of money. They were advertising home sells at high value, but finances at 12% percent o 18% percent lower than their estimated value. This enabled low-income American's to jump into a home Mortgage with nothing down. But the cost was very high; more than 40% percent of the average wage earners income. And boy Wall Street loved it. They were, figuratively speaking, banking huge $$$ from selling a simple candy bar, worth only .25 cents, for $10 bucks.

In all honesty, I see no value at all with Wall Street. The wealth of the economy is not based on Wall Street. Wall Street is strictly for investors who allow their money to be used for high interest rate loans. This, of course, yields them higher dividends or capital gains.

I'm not jealous of the rich. I just wish they would honor their employee's more than what they've been doing. I know the Unions have not made this any easier. But without the Unions, employee's would be forced into enduring long hours, low wages, no health care, and no pensions.

I'm sorry if this discussion offended you. I've noticed that not too many people on the Wheel are interested in talking about anything accept Prophesy, or Church pet-pee's such as Baptism, once saved always saved, Sabbath days, etc. I've risen above all such pettiness.

At any rate, God bless you, and have a wonderful day.

Joe

[heb13-13]

I'm sorry if this discussion offended you. I've noticed that not too many people on the Wheel are interested in talking about anything accept Prophesy, or Church pet-pee's such as Baptism, once saved always saved, Sabbath days, etc. I've risen above all such pettiness.

At any rate, God bless you, and have a wonderful day.

Joe

Hi Joe,

I just want to clear up that I am not offended at all. I just don't have the heart for debating the merits of voting Democrat over Republican or vice-versa when I know there is much more going on than meets the eye or is reported in the news. Much of the behind-the-scenes work is kept from the average American, but if you are willing to search things out without a preconceived bias, you will find a lot of information related to what is really going on.

Best to you,
Rick

[TheForgiven]

Hi Joe,

I just want to clear up that I am not offended at all. I just don't have the heart for debating the merits of voting Democrat over Republican or vice-versa when I know there is much more going on than meets the eye or is reported in the news. Much of the behind-the-scenes work is kept from the average American, but if you are willing to search things out without a preconceived bias, you will find a lot of information related to what is really going on.

Best to you,
Rick

No objections here. I know that there are "behind the scenes" activities going on in Washington. That's what the 99% percent movement is all about. It's not just about Democratic or Republican votes. It's about our government, which has grown into a very corrupt institution who yield their power to the highest bidder. The 99% percent are basically saying, "HEY! OVER HERE! WHAT ABOUT MY VOICE? WE OUTNUMBER THE 1% PERCENT SO LISTEN TO US, AND NOT THEM!" That's what this movement is all about.

What saddens me is how Fox News has been reporting that the 99% percent are comprised of sleazy drug addicts and college kids simply looking for something to complain about. But that isn't true at all. Most of them are former business employee's who were laid off due to company cut backs or closures. Look at what happened to Whirlpool who took millions of dollars in bail-out money, yet still shut down despite their very good profit margins. Well, if they were doing so well, then why shut down? As Ed Shultz states, someone at the top wants more money, so the share holders have decided to close down their manufacturing plant and move it to China or India. The reason is obvious; cheaper labor, yielding higher profits for them. Where's the honor in that?

Here is my solution to the problem. And if I get the chance to speak to the President (yea right! :lol:), this is how I would resolve the issue. Any American citizen who owns companies abroad should be taxed so heavily that it would be cheaper to keep jobs here. Those who refuse would end up paying very high taxes and penalties, and that money would contribute to badly needed revenue for the government. This in turn would create more Public Sector jobs, which are far better than private sector jobs. Sure they don't always pay very well, but they are stable, with guaranteed pensions and health care.

I would also end tax entitlements for the middle class and the wealthy. I would end the child-tax credit, AND the tax break loop holes for rich corporations as well as their tax incentives such as with Big Oil. For the top 1% percent, we know that they obtained their wealth from immoral practices, so I would bring back the luxury tax on the top 1% percent, and make it very heavy. This too would contribute to badly needed revenue for our government.

Lastly, all American corporations who have businesses overseas, and are relying on the military to protect their infrastructural, would have to pay additional taxes to support military troops, and/or equipment upgrades. Why not? We're protecting their assets, so it's only fair that they compensate the cost of keeping bases overseas. The U.S. didn't have any problems taking money from Saudi Arabia in the 90's, when Bill Clinton had huge piles of cash that supposedly nobody knew where it came from. :lol: The Saudi's were paying the United States for our protection. But WE, the members of the armed forces, didn't receive a single penny. Uncle Sam spoke on behalf of us and said, "we're not mercenaries"! We were there with the British and the French who were more than adequately compensated for their service. But the American troops got nothing except $3.50 cents a day for meals.

Oh, and for the middle class who would lose the tax credits, I would force American companies to increase their wages and raise the minimum wage to $15.00 dollars an hour. This would force the wager earning into taking responsibility for his/her own health care, and investments. If they screw that up, then they would require financial counseling. And if that doesn't work, THEN they'd be left on their own.

The secret to American economical success is to increase cash flow to the spenders, and NOT investors. Those who invest hurt the economy; those who spend keep the economy flowing with milk and honey.

Joe

[Brother Les]

Joe

The Democrats were simply trying to make it easier for everyone to own a home. What they didn't expect was for Wall street and Big Banks to resort to loan scams imposed on those (the middle class and poor) who wanted to buy a home. I'm one of those idiots who got sucked into their scam. My house was sold at 6% percent because that was the going rate. I didn't have enough money to put down (usually 20%). So what did they do? They over-appraised the value of the house at $148,000 dollars, with a sell price of $135,000. This made it seem like that I had equity built from the get-go. One year later, and BAM!!!! The bubble busted (so they say), and all of a sudden, my house isn't work JACK! Now it's only worth $128,000 dollars, which just happens to be EXACTLY what I owe. Meanwhile, Bank of America has collected more than $48,000 thousand dollars in interest payments, which means if I refinanced my home at the current payoff value, I just lost $48,000 dollars. THAT is the kind of scam that I'm ticked off with big banks, big oil, and Wall street. So I've decided not to refinance because if I lose my job, then I want Bank of America to be stuck with a home they cannot sell. Why would I want to cause problems for an honest bank (if there is such a thing)?



Joe, I am really sorry for your current situation and we see the bitterness of what is going on. I can not walk in your shoes or make things 'right'. I do not wish to defend the Demos or the Repubs as all are playing a part in this messed up matrix. 'The Game' is a set up and all will eventually loose. It is the way that our economic monetary system is set up that demands a 90% failure rate. Our monetary system is a debt based system and not an asset based system. If you are able to wrap your mind around this concept then you should be able to understand that at some time in the Future you will loose every assest that you have and die with a debit to your account of assets. Billions are in this situation every day and that fact will not end.

You have proven in the paragraph above that you wrote that you did not do due dilagents in buying your house. A blind man could see that through the ealy 2000s that the 'governments and social groups, home and commercial builders' wanted to 'raise' home ownership and 'business' creation. This was 'designed' to spur the economy by 'raising wealth' with borrowing and artifically raising the values of all properties. Congress (democrats) were looking into bank practices of 'red lining' many areas for '(no) loans' and harder to obtain loans.These restrictings were eased to the point that anyone could get a loan with no credit or credit history. People were 'buying' multiple houses to 'flip' with interest only loan. The hoops that needed to be jumped through were reduced to almost no money down and apraisers over valued properties by looking at the unrealistic 'value rise' of houses around them. County Apraisers followed closely behind to sqeeze as much tax revenue out of each and every property.

Your 'appraised' value of 148,000 means nothing to the county or to you only the purchase price. In your minds eye you were able to 'make' a $7,000 gain while only 'spending' (borrowing?) 135,000. A 6% rate in a 'standard' economy is a Below standard rate. What do you want, 4%? You are still borrowing money to finance a purchase. You say that you house in 'only' worth 128,000. Joe.... in many areas of the country, house prices have fallen 30,40,50 %. That would mean that 'your' house that was (over) appraised in the building up of the bubble timeline should now be worth....74,000 dollars.
Your a big boy and could easily see the run up on property prices. Did you look to 'reselling' in several years and make a 'profit' and buy a bigger higher priced home? Bubbles do not last and this (that) housing/property bubble would not either. Our economy willtake years to get back to a stardard rate and when that happens the United State Government will not be able to (also) pay the interest on its' debt..... what happens next is collapse of the economy.

You have several options to do......

Do you like the house and want to stay there? Do not try to refinance on a loan that will take you several years to requpe your 'costs' of the loan if you plan to move in 3-5 years. keep paying the 'rent'. If you plan on retiring there, then it may be benifital to chase a 2% drop in the interest payments.
Prices will continue to fall in many areas of the country of years to come. Equity will not come back to many areas for many years to come. If you plan on moving and can not get a buyer to buy for what is left on you 'note', you may want to just 'walk away' and let the bank have the property. You will always be able to find a 'rental' in any area that you move as values fall more people are walking away and renting until thing stablize 5-10 years down the road. If you like your house and want to stay..... follow the falling price down (most areas in the country will falling price) at when you think that it is close to the bottom, have it reappraised (and ask him to 'dumb it down') and take that lower appraisal to the county to reduce your taxes. You have no 'equity' in your house..... you never did.... and what you may have thought was 'equity' you know very well that it was an 'inflated' bases and not 'true'.

Neither the 'Right' or the 'Left', Demo or Repub, can 'fix' this broken Matrix in the perameters that the Matrix sets........ The Debt based Matrix has to crash and be destroyed and a new Assets based Matric Created.

You are being foolish in your talk about 'following' the demos..... Your emotion is talking and not your mind. I am a Blue Dog Democrat..... the wing of the Democratic party that was desimated in the last election. The 'Democrats' have swong so far to the left in a socialist spectrim that the remainder of the population has been forced into the arms of the Repubs... the 'independents' have been pushed to the 'right' because of the clamoring of 'change' and having seen only crony (union BOSSES) pay offs are sick to the spending and corruption in the currect administration. Obama preached so much against Bush and now he has become and is even worse than Bush.... Making Bush proud and proven justsified in all of his actions.

The party of the Democrats is corrupt and the party of the Republicans is corrupt and the one man that could make a Sea change in the Economics of America and you rail against him also. Ron Paul would attemp to trans form our money system. But there are soooooo many other things that I have seen you rail about him that you over look the good that he will and can make for America.

From the first post on this thread it is evident that you are trying to shift the blame to somthing else that you walked willingly into. You can not go back and it is what you do from this time forward that will change the day after that.

Vote for and suport Ron Paul and see a Sea Change to fiscal stability. With out a stable currency, we are all doomed to die in the debit column.

[throwback]

In my opinion, the protestors are focusing their attention on the wrong groups. They need to be occupying Washington so that Washington becomes as responsive to the people as it is to the global banksters that use their wealth and influence to manipulate governments.

[TheForgiven]

Why would I vote Republican LES? Especially for Ron Paul? Did you happen to catch the GOP debate when Ron Paul was asked what he would do if a young woman involved in a near-fatal accident didn't have insurance? Before he answered, a few within the crowd yelled, "Let her die!" Now Ron Paul didn't say that, but his response was the same. He replied, "What is this notion that we have to care about someone else? That's what freedom is all about.." What did Ron mean by that? He means that caring for the welfare of your neighbor is a choice. And he, as an American citizen, believes that a person should have a choice or not, whether they want to care for someone else's well being.

Ron is right, but he is also wrong. Rich folks may get mad at me for saying this, but if you are rich, and you are not paying your employee's what they rightfully earn (having contributed to the success of the CEO's business), then they deserve to be heavily taxed. Businesses aren't successful all on their own, as if only the business owner deserves all the credit and the profit. Customers are the reason they succeed, and the people serving those customers are the reason they succeed. It has very little to do with some hot-shot calling the shots. He's just a financial stepping stone that used his money (or someone else's money) to get rich. But as the old saying goes, "It takes money to make money". The entire idea about people starting at the bottom, and growing rich when they get to the top, is all non-sense. Not a single Politician started at the bottom; NOT ONE! Take Governor Perry for instance. He and his father ran a farm. And how much tax subsidies would you supposed he and his father received for NOT growing so many crops? Farmers receiving tax breaks, Big Oil receiving tax breaks, and all major corporations receiving tax breaks is nothing more than Socialism. Yet he and his father used Socialistic welfare to obtain his wealth. So it's not like he got rich entirely on his own; nobody does.

I laugh when the rich or brain-washed Republicans assume that we are a Capitalist society. :lol: Far from it. Welfare exists on the Corporate AND the middle class sector. Yet here we have a bunch of Greedy Republicans (especially Ron Paul who's a Doctor who has apparently forgotten his oath) who feel that tax breaks for the rich, and corporate welfare is more important than young children needing food stamps.

WHERE ARE THE JOBS? Why not ask China. Now an associate of mine, whom I'm trying convince to join this discussion, has fallen for the delusion that poor people are poor because they made the wrong choices. But that is not the majority of all cases. In most cases, people lost their jobs to overseas competition, or foreign illegal immigrants. Just look at what Whirlpool did this past weekend. They were profiting pretty well, especially when Mayflower bought them out. But you see? That's wasn't good enough for the share holders. They want MORE money. So what did they do? They laid off 5,000 employees who were being paid roughly $17.00 bucks an hour for 20 years, and now have nothing. Was it because they were going under? Nope, especially after receiving plenty of bail-out money. NO, the share holders want more bang for the buck, so they decided to pull-chocks and ship to Mexico for cheap labor.

Now if you took a good look at the income disparity that exists between the rich and the poor, you'd see why our economy tanked. GREED....GREED....GREED!

I agree that greed exists on both sides of the House and Senate. HOWEVER, at this time, there is only one side that cares about the poor; one side who will fight for the middle class. What side is that? Democrats!

My service in the military has brainwashed me into following the ideals of the Republican party. But ever since George Bush Junior became President, I realized more and more, that the GOP does not represent the interests of the American majority. They are only concerned about the "bottom line". When President Obama passed new legislation to limit what credit card companies could do, on the day of the announcement, not a single GOP representative clapped. Now why is that? Was it because their noses were so stiff and their heads pointed so high, that now they could no longer extort money for profit?

As I've stated, neither side is perfect, but there is only one side that will help the middle class and the poor. If we get a Republican President back in office, along with a GOP dominated House and Senate, then we can all kiss our country goodbye. My associate blames NAFTA on Bill Clinton, but if he's been watching the news, the only ones fighting for NAFTA are the GOP representatives. Not a single Democrat has expressed their like with NAFTA. Obama has bashed it a few times now, although to Bill Clinton's displeasure. :lol:

Finally, to my associate who thinks that regulation, unions, and high taxes are what's hurting corporations, he needs to take a look at the income chart again, and tell me where they got their huge profits from? He also needs to explain how they managed to profit in the 90's despite paying higher taxes (39.6% percent). The answer? Bill Clinton invested in the economy, and NOT just the share holders.

What's the secret to a successful economy? Wages...wages...wages. Good wages with a low cost of living dramatically increases disposable income of the middle class. And when the middle class is strong, the upper class (and even the top 1% percent) will be even stronger. This is called "Trickle UP" economics. Trickle Down economics is a complete fraud and a failure, and I've got the numbers to prove it. Just look at the disparity chart and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

Now what about China? Yes, I know they've created a huge mess with their low wages. But their cost of living is much lower than ours. One way to solve the problem is to reduce our cost of living. This means lowering gas prices, lowering energy prices, and lowering food prices. Cost of living should be managed by the government as a non-profit organization. Doing so would not only increase the disposable income of the middle class, but also the rich (who already have too much money that they don't know what to do with).

Having said all of this, unless we get the "Share holders" off of our backs, I'm afraid it will not be possible to recover from this recession. We're all familiar with the Titanic and what happened to the poor. The rich in their greediness, cared only for themselves; it's the same with our nation. WE, like the Titanic, are sinking because of a flaw in the economical system (Trickle Down Economics), and the rich are stealing all of remaining life-boats to save their own lives, leaving the poor to drown in the chaos. I say it's time to vote against Washington, and clean-house!!!!

Joe

P.S. Hey Byrd? If you've got the guts, join this debate....if you think you can. :winking0071:

[TheForgiven]

$5.00 dollar debit card fee....WHO'S FAULT WAS IT?

I just received word today from a good friend of mine who banks with Sun Trust. He was informed that the $5.00 dollar debit card fee was not the idea of the Banks, but (GET THIS) from a Bill passed sometime in 2010. GUESS WHO???

http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/subjects/c/credit_crisis/financial_regulatory_reform/index.html

If you read the article, this was an attempt by the GOP to loosen up regulations against Financial institutions to give the "SHARE HOLDERS" higher profits. As if they don't already have enough.

NOW WHO in their right mind says that we should vote Republican if they are the greedy snakes always after our money? Don't they have enough???? :confused:

Right now, I'm looking for the names of the members who voted for the new Bill that was passed without anyone even knowing about it. My friend informed me that his associate who works with SunTrust said, "Don't blame the banks. Blame the politicians who passed legislation urging Banks to charge the $5.00 debit card fee for the share-holders".

But thanks to the power of our voices, Bank of America and the other banks have decided to pass on this idea due to customers voicing their displeasure. Gee, so when Capitalism doesn't work for them, it's time to refrain right? Well it's working for them now because they have power over us. Just think folks. If we could only break their power over us, then they'd be satisfying our needs, and not theirs.

WHO GIVES A CRAP ABOUT THE SHARE HOLDERS????

Joe

[Brother Les]

Joe, I typed out a lot of stuff for what you said and the more I thought about it the more saddness that I feel for you and your plight. It seems to me that you have been 'kicked to the curb' and thrown away...... you have been. But it is both parties that have 'negotiated' to unwheelding compromises. It is to the point that the only way to fix the monetary system is crash the system. It all flows from that.

I am pro Tarriffs and Duties and anti- NAFTA and GATT. All of the politicians of that time knew that these 'trade agreements' would destroy the US manufacturing base and flood the US with slave made goods.

These problems are really nothing 'new' to the US or any other countries economies in the world. History does repeat itself in economic venuses. The US has always had 'boom and bust' cycles and in a debt based monetary system it always will.


The 15 trill. 'public' debt is nothing compared to the 'private' and 'corporate' debt. Can you wrap your mind around the numbers of 100 trill (and more with dervatives) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_(finance) US debt. I have seen numbers posted of 700 trill when dervatives are included.The 15trill by itself will crash the US economy, when the other debts (private/dervatives) are thrown in, it will only make the fall faster. The world wide economy WILL FAIL..... make no mistake about it. We have been in a Depression since 2007 (The 'Great Depression' lasted from 1928 to 1947) and nothing will bring back stability except an other World War. Don't be worrying about 'refinancing' your mortgage..... worry about how you will keep you family alive two years from now....



WHO GIVES A CRAP ABOUT THE SHARE HOLDERS????
Joe


The Share Holders.....(which means you wheather you own 'stock' or not)
It is almost impossible not to be tied to some international company, be it food, clothing, financial, consumer goods.....you 'own' a 'share' of all of this.

[TheForgiven]

CAPITALISM VS. SOCIALISM

We've heard from the Republican side as it was reported by a very biased News Media Network FOX, supposedly "Fair and Balanced" :lol: [Yea right! As if!] that the 99% percent is comprised of a bunch of drug addicts, goons, and bums. But this is far from the truth. MSMBC's Ed Shultz has went live to many of their protests all throughout the nation. One such person who was involved is the famous Michael Myers from Austin Powers, who supported and agreed with the 99% percent Protesters out there. The majority of the Protesters are folks who have lost their jobs, down to college students who have degrees which cost them up to $45,000 dollars to obtain and are now in student debt. Now it is true that a few within the crowd may be simple homeless bums or drug addicts. But if that were the case, then perhaps FOX should ask where they got the money to buy the tents they're sleeping in, or where they got the merchandise such as T-Shirts that are being sold. Better yet, where did they get the materials to make the signs. Did this "bums" and "Drug addicts" dig through trash cans to make their signs, T-Shirts, or merchandise for sell?

FOX news reports that the 99 are protesting Capitalism, as if our nation is even a Capitalistic society. But that is the largest lie ever to walk the face of the earth. Corporations receiving tax breaks, or tax incentives, so that they will "behave" in a certain manner is far from capitalism. On a side note, I find it quite interesting that the GOP is trying to get rid of Social Security, Medicaid, and Medicare, because they say we can't afford it. OH, but we can still afford tax incentives for Big Oil companies comprised of about 12 BILLION dollars in a 10 year period! We can afford to give farmers tax incentives NOT TO GROW TOO MUCH CORN OR WHEAT in order to keep prices up for produce! We can afford Congresses House Majority pay/pension increases of 25% percent (as seen last night on MSNBC). But for some reason, we can't afford social security, medicaid, medicare, Veteran disability pensions, military pensions, student loans, nor anything else. What they really mean to say folks is that any welfare used to help the middle class and the poor is too expensive. But when it comes to corporate welfare or incentives, sure we've got the money for that. After all, we don't want to hurt the "JOB CREATORS". What a bunch of horse crap! Corporations are anything but JOB CREATORS! THEY'RE MORE LIKE PROFITEERS for the SHAREHOLDERS as opposed to Job Creators. The cold hard truth is that it's all about profits for the share holders and not the employee's. That's the sad truth that has oppressed our nation for the past 30 years.

NOW, are we, in the United States, a Capitalist society? :lol: Only a brain washed idiot would think that. From corporate welfare to incentives, we are anything but a Capitalist society, and are more Socialist.

Now, what's so bad about Socialism? Some argue that Socialism demotes the incentive to "rise and climb" to success. That is the most ignorant and misinformed myth to date. The United States military is a Socialist agency. An Aircraft Mechanic within the Air Force gets paid the exact same pay as a cook working in a Dining facility, respective of their rank of course. SO an E-5 working as a Supervisor in an aircraft maintenance unit receives the same amount of pay and benefits as an E-5 working in a Dining Facility. The reason why the military does this is because no matter what specialty you are trained to do, you are valuable and important to the military, and the military needs you. An aircraft Pilot makes the same amount of money as a unit commander who never flies. A plummer makes the same amount of money as the metal fabricator. I think we get the point. And in each of these specialty skills, the military requires that you do the very best that you can no matter what skill you are trained on. And in all this, nobody is above or below their associate, notwithstanding their pay-grade of course. But this system works. Morale, although low these days due to force shaping and reduction, is generally pretty well in most cases, unless of course a person was put into a specialty they did not want to perform; that's an entirely different circumstance. Specialty assignment is selected based on the demands within a given career, and also how the member scores on their ASVAB test.

In all this, the military is a proven agency that Socialism works just fine. Many within each specialty strive for perfection no matter what career they've chosen or have been assigned. And all receive the same pay based on rank, as well as the same retirement pension and health care. SO, that leaves me to wonder why the civilian sector has a hard time accepting this. There's really only one reason why some would hate this form of social engineering. GREED!!!! When it all comes down to it, it's all about Greed. And right now, our country (for the past 30 years) has been turned into a nation where only the Executives and the CEO'S are entitled to wealth, and everyone else below them, no matter how many years of training or education was required to work for these people, do not deserve a piece of the pie. This kind of inequality has led to the largest Wall Street extortion of the public since the great depression in 1929. Laws and regulations were established to prevent that from happening again. But those laws and regulations were removed when George Bush took office. And in 2008, everything started coming down. Now the 1% to 2% percent within our nation has set the bar for wealth. Unless you are a CEO of some business or law firm, you are not entitled to sharing wealth. It's gotten to the points that the only ones who feel they have the right to make money are the share holders; those who play the stock market. Right now, all major corporations are sitting on the largest sum of capital in recorded history; between $6 to $7 TRILLION DOLLARS IN CAPITAL and that's never happened before. And what are they doing with this money? It's certainly not going to wages, tips, or salaries. It's all being stored away in offshore accounts (to evade badly needed tax revenue) or they simply throw it in Wall Street looking for ways to increase its wealth. And everyone knows that Wall Street accumulates its wealth from high interest rate loans. And THAT is the reason why corporations don't want to pay the middle class higher rates. They WANT you to take out loans to buy products because money-from-money is how they prefer to accumulate wealth. Sure they want you to buy their products, especially the ones made overseas. :lol: But the last thing they want is for someone to pay cash for their products; especially a middle class employee. These rich tycoons want you dependent on banks to buy their products because that enables them to collect profit in two ways; the sell of their product, and the money borrowed to buy their products or services. This is what their "Free Market" society is all about; economical engineering and control.

In conclusion, I've shown you that the United States is far from a Capitalistic society. Large corporations, down to the poorest American, all receives tax breaks or tax incentives to "behave" in a certain manner, or to be rewarded for a certain manner. The U.S. Military is a perfect example of just how well Socialism works. People are paid based on their rank, and not their skill, and all without each skilled employee of the military, receive the same pay-grade check, retirement, and health care. Perhaps if the civilian sector adapted to the military professional structure, the playing field would be level. But again, only one entity prevents this from ever succeeding. GREED! If you consider the Church (Kingdom of Christ), there are those who are first, and those who are last, yet all of them receive the same award. If our nation could free itself from global greed, and learn to keep their neighbor in mind, instead of their shares, we would be far better than what we are, with no 99'ers out there.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

Joe, I typed out a lot of stuff for what you said and the more I thought about it the more saddness that I feel for you and your plight. It seems to me that you have been 'kicked to the curb' and thrown away...... you have been. But it is both parties that have 'negotiated' to unwheelding compromises. It is to the point that the only way to fix the monetary system is crash the system. It all flows from that.

I am pro Tarriffs and Duties and anti- NAFTA and GATT. All of the politicians of that time knew that these 'trade agreements' would destroy the US manufacturing base and flood the US with slave made goods.

These problems are really nothing 'new' to the US or any other countries economies in the world. History does repeat itself in economic venuses. The US has always had 'boom and bust' cycles and in a debt based monetary system it always will.


The 15 trill. 'public' debt is nothing compared to the 'private' and 'corporate' debt. Can you wrap your mind around the numbers of 100 trill (and more with dervatives) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_(finance) US debt. I have seen numbers posted of 700 trill when dervatives are included.The 15trill by itself will crash the US economy, when the other debts (private/dervatives) are thrown in, it will only make the fall faster. The world wide economy WILL FAIL..... make no mistake about it. We have been in a Depression since 2007 (The 'Great Depression' lasted from 1928 to 1947) and nothing will bring back stability except an other World War. Don't be worrying about 'refinancing' your mortgage..... worry about how you will keep you family alive two years from now....





The Share Holders.....(which means you wheather you own 'stock' or not)
It is almost impossible not to be tied to some international company, be it food, clothing, financial, consumer goods.....you 'own' a 'share' of all of this.

I have my friend. The U.S. Air Force used me for the past 19 years of my career. And I wanted to serve longer than a mere 20 years. But my colon cancer made me non-deployable in 2003, although the Air Force never medically separated me. Now all of a sudden, they changed the rules this past Jan 2011. No member exempt on one or more fitness category can remain in active duty status UNLESS you're an Officer. There are 5 components of the Air Force fitness test:

1. 1.5 mile run (timed based on weight and age) or 1 mile walk (timed with heart monitor)
2. Push-ups (max 65 in 60 seconds based on age)
3. Sit-Ups
4. Waist measurement
5. Weight

I cannot run because of a motorcycle accident that crushed my ankle in 2010, but I could still perform my job. I cannot have my waist measured because I'm wearing a permanent colostomy from the colon cancer back in 2003. Yet since then, I've been "Returned to Duty" since 2003, probably because the Air Force didn't want to pay me Air Force Disability compensation. And if I elected to separate, that would hurt my chances for a higher VA Disability compensation. Now all of a sudden, within a year of my retirement, they tried to change the fitness standard rules so that I could be forced out administratively instead of medically. They tried to make the fitness standards so tough that it would be impossible to pass, especially if you're injured. However, I continued to pass with a 92% percent or higher, but was exempt on 2 categories; Sit-ups, and waist measurement. Well that wasn't hurting the older people liked Air Force leaders had hopes. It turned out that the younger folks were the ones failing the test, and were being kicked out before even reaching 4 or 6 years of service; the old guys did what they knew they had to do to protect their pensions. SO, what does Uncle Sam do? They changed the rules again. This time, as of Jan 2011, anybody exempt on one or more category 12 months minimal, must be force shaped out through a Physical Evaluation board. What does this mean? No medical compensation. A short and quick immediate separation from active duty in as little as 30 days. I've already seen this happen to two of my associates; one was at his 16 years ADS, and the other 18 years ADS. Both were separated with no compensation, and very little medical disability.

So the past five years have made me realize that even the military has grown corrupted, in some cases, worse than the civilian side. But when it comes to Public Employee's working in the military, well they have no standards, are paid much higher than we are, and would take an act of Congress to get them fired. :lol:

So needless to say, I'm a little bummed that the Air Force used me all of this time and tried to cut my career short of 20 years, but I didn't let them get my pension. Well, it's not over yet; they're still trying to do an M.E.B. on me this November. But I will be on Terminal Leave, so legally, they shouldn't be able to force me out before reaching my 20 year mark this 12 Feb 2012. The Hospital called me up four weeks ago and wanted to do another M.E.B. (Medical Evaluation Board) as soon as possible, but I have to have another Colonoscopy done before they could submit the package to Randolph AFB. Luckily, the next available appointment is not until December this year, which means by that time, they won't have much luck kicking me out before reaching 20 years of service.

Despite all of this, I honestly wanted to remain active duty longer than 20 years. I was very good at my job, and I managed more than one position; up to 5 different programs, all by myself. Not without near fatal medical complications though. :lol: I pushed myself so hard, having worked nearly 17 hours a day, that I ended up visiting the emergency room 13 times in a three month period. So I forced myself to throttle back.

I managed to refinance my house yesterday, down to 4% percent on a 20 year mortgage, and my house payment dropped a little more than $200.00 dollars. But I've got another hurdle to overcome. I'm hope the VA will rate my disability to 100 percent disabled, which according to their disability rating/compensation chart, I should receive due to my colostomy, not counting my ankle fusion. But these days, with the GOP trying to cut out or reduce VA compensation, I'm afraid that I may not receive as much as I hope. So this is yet another added reason why I hate the GOP. And yes, I used the word "HATE". I know that it's a sin, but the Republicans have made an enemy with me, having seen their crooked tactics on society, that I vowed never to vote Republican ever again. They don't care about the military like they always claim. They praise service men and women on Fox News. But when it comes to pay raises, they nearly always vote "NO". I've got the names and the numbers of the last pay raise we barely got. More Republicans voted "NO" for military pay raised, but I noticed that they gave themselves a 25% percent increase since 2010. MUST BE NICE!!!

Joe

[Brother Les]

Joe
The U.S. Military is a perfect example of just how well Socialism works. People are paid based on their rank, and not their skill, and all without each skilled employee of the military, receive the same pay-grade check, retirement, and health care



Joe, you picked the Best example of how Socialism works, Thank-you.
Socialism works very very well until those with money (assets/Capitalists) have lost all of their money (assets/capital) to those who feed off of the system.

The Military ADDS NOTHING to the bottom line of the economy. It is a force that is able to only TAKE OUT and reduce the economic viability of the country. The Military PAYS NO TAXES as The Military is ONLY a Service industry of government workers (NO Government workers pay Taxes) who get their base line money from the REAL Tax Payers who Create Wealth. It (the military) creates NO Wealth and only Destroys and reduces Wealth..... EXCEPT through the actions of STEALING from others by Conquest and Force, both within their country and without against other countries.
Your example of 'Socialism' (military) is a good one for the action of NOT being equal through hard work and adding to society, but by Taking Away of the fruits of labor and asset creation of others.

[Brother Les]

Would you like to see what our Socialist Military are involved in? You probably already know of these country building, with the barrel of a gun. Reprinted from 2005. How many more Millions of people have our military killed since then and many more trillions from REAL U.S. tax payers have been wasted.


Randy Atkins - Arsenal Of Hypocrisy.

Feb. 28, 2005 - Now that it's safe to bet that world military expenditures in 2005 will exceed one trillion dollars (that's one with 12 zeros or $1,000,000,000,000) and possibly even more with Black Budgets, the world is sure to grow increasingly more chaotic . Small poor countries feel more threatened than ever by neighboring countries with bigger weapons. Some of these countries spend more on military and weapons than on health care, education, and other social services combined. The United States government's military spending accounts for almost 50% of the world's total military spending, more than all other countries combined. The United States' largest national export is weapons, and the weapons corporations sell to anyone anywhere that has cash. Weapons Corporations, like International Money Lenders, have no allegiance to their own countries. Eighty percent of their weapons are sold to non-democratic regimes around the world. In many cases these US-made weapons are used on American soldiers in subsequent conflicts. The United States is not the only one in the weapons game. Russia, China, Europe and other countries are also selling weapons to the highest bidder and in many cases sell to both sides of a conflict.

The U.S. government is exporting what the Pentagon calls "security" around the World and is, at any given time, training soldiers in over 70 countries. One of the best known of these training programs is the Pentagon's International Military Education and Training Program (IMET). Soldiers in these US training programs come from warring countries and countries with the most horrific human rights abuses on record, including Indonesia, Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Congo, Columbia, Iraq, Afghanistan and many other countries inside what Thomas Barnett, author of "The Pentagon's New Map" calls THE GAP. Thomas Barnett goes on to say that the US is selling security in the "GAP" and the "GAP" is measured in" billable hours." "Security" is the new buzz word for the "military industrial complex" and has increased 80% since the fall of the Soviet Union, making war a big money-maker for the multi-national corporations. This has been dubbed "a permanent war economy." Barnett says that if you give him any pissed-off 18-, or 19-year-old American kid who likes to play video games, he will show you the soldier of tomorrow.

In 2002 James Glaser stumbled across the VFW web page section for eligibility and, to his surprise, found 67 places on the globe where America has been at war in some way since after WW II. Antiwar.com and Lew Rockwell state that we have engaged the enemy 23 times since 1945, but the Congress of the United States put that number at 67.

Here is the list as written in the VFW site:

* Taiwan Straits
* Quemoy Matsu Island
* Congo
* Laos
* Vietnam
* Cuba
* Dominican Republic
* Korea
* Cambodia
* Thailand (in direct support of Cambodia Operation)
* Operation Eagle Pull-Evacuation of Cambodia
* Operation Frequent Wind-Evacuation of Vietnam
* Mayaguez Operation
* Operation Urgent Fury-Grenada
* Lebanon
* Germany (West Berlin)
* Austria
* Korea
* Japan
* Italy
* Trieste
* Germany (except West Berlin)
* Austria
* Asiatic Pacific
* Korean Service Medal (Army, Navy, Air Force)
* Berlin
* Libyan Operation El Dorado Canyo
* Persian Gulf Operation Earnest Will
* Panama Operation Just Cause
* Somalia-United Shield-Operation Restore Hope
* Haiti-Operation Uphold Democracy
* Operation Southern Watch (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq, Oman, Gulf of Omen W. Of 62' E. Long, Yemen, Egypt, Jordan)
* El Salvador
* Bosnia-Operation Joint Endeavor
* Operation Joint Guard
* Operation Vigilant Sentinel
* Operation Northern Watch
* Operation Maritime Intercept
* Operation Joint Forge (Bosnia-Herzegovina)
* Operation Desert Thunder
* Operation Desert Fox
* Thailand Military Operation
* Cuban Military Operation
* Iranian, Yemen Indian Ocean Operation
* Lebanon, Libyan Expedition
* Panama - (pre and post invasion)
* Liberia (Operation Sharp Edge)
* Rwanda (Operation Distant Runner)
* Vietnam Service Medal
* Iraq Operation Desert Storm/Operation Desert Shield
* Combat Action Ribbon, Korean Service,
* Kosovo Campaign Medal (Allied Force),
* Joint Guardian, Allied Harbor Sustain Hope/Shining Hope
* Nobel Anvil, Kosovo Task Force Hawk
* Kosovo Task Force Saber
* Kosovo Task Force Falcon
* Kosovo Task force Hunter
* Kosovo Air Campaign
* Kosovo Defense Campaign.

Some of these countries are repeated, but the dates of action are different. That means that we have repeatedly returned to some countries for new engagements much like we are now doing in Iraq. As you can see by this list, America has been very busy in the last 50 years and our "Military Might" (Military Industrial Complex) has been in the forefront of U.S. Foreign Policy. Today the United States has over 700 military out posts outside the U.S.

The USAF had dropped 1.5 million tons of bombs on Laos and 150,000 tons of bombs on Viet Nam. More recently, the U.S. bombings, military invasions of forgiven countries, and the U.N. sanctions (mainly maintained by the U.S.) are responsible for the high level of deaths and violence due to sanctions. Such actions caused the deaths of over 1.5 million Iraqis; about 50% of these deaths were Iraqi children less than 5 years old. Of course, this number will continue to grow because of the use of Depleted Uranium munitions. DU was also used in Yugoslavia and Afghanistan.

Over 10,000 tons of bombs were dropped on Afghanistan. The United States reports that it flew over 110,000 air sorties against Iraq, dropping to date over 100,000 tons of conventional bombs, nearly seven times the equivalent of the atomic bomb that destroyed Hiroshima. Of this bombardment, 93% consists of free-falling bombs, most dropped from over 30,000 feet and indiscriminately killing millions of civilians. At least 7% of the bombs in Iraq had satellite guided systems; more than 25% missed their targets. Most of the targets were civilian facilities. In 2004, it's been estimated that the United States fired 2,500 tons of depleted uranium munitions on Iraq with the radio-active equivalent of thousands of Nagasaki bombs with a half-life of 4.5 BILLION years. Data from William Blum's book Rogue State, supplemented by casualty data from various sources, estimates that between 10 million to 16 million deaths were directly and indirectly related to United States' hegemony sense after WWII.

Researchers estimate that since 1945 at least 50 US and Russian nuclear weapons have been lost and remain at bottom of the sea, called broken arrows from subs, ships and planes. The US alone officially lists 11 nuclear bombs lost and never recovered in accidents. Around the world thousands of incidents of nuclear plants, nuclear facilities, bombers, subs and ships are on record, but due to government and business secrecy, it is difficult to determine with certainty the extent of some events documented by government and non-government sources.

Due to nuclear testing starting from 1945, 1,025 nuclear detonations, including five upper-atmosphere tests called 'operation starfish,' I believe have added to today's global warming problem. Nuclear power plants for nuclear weapons production and energy around the world are contaminating massive amounts of water and land affecting the gene pool of plants and animals. Cancer is now the leading cause of death. Cancer clinics are over flowing and the uninsured in America are simply denied treatment and left to die a horrible death.

Currently, the total U.S. nuclear stockpile is estimated to consist of almost 20,000 nuclear warheads, including almost 3,000 reserve strategic and tactical warheads, which are not attached to delivery vehicles. The United States is also deploying very dangerous space based weapons systems for world domination that has moved the arms race into the heavens.

The current Russian nuclear stockpile is estimated at 19,500 nuclear warheads. Unlike the United States, Russia possesses these reserves at least in part because dismantling the warheads has proven prohibitively expensive. And unlike the United States, Russia continues to produce limited numbers of new nuclear warheads, largely because its warheads are designed to have a far shorter operational lifespan and, therefore, must be replaced more frequently. China at present has 2,350 nuclear warheads. Thousands of these US, Russian, and Chinese nuclear warheads remain on hair-trigger alert. Many of these weapons systems are outdated and controlled by failing computer systems.

It's now very clear that US aggression over the last 50 years is economic and strategic conquest pure and simple, as Zbigniew Brzezinski in his book "The Grand Chessboard" so well put it. Sadly, the United States has, to my estimate, dropped over 100,000,000 (million) tons of bombs on foreign lands over the last 50 years killing millions and millions of civilians that want nothing to do with this madness. What will it take for these weapons systems to be completely dismantled and for the world to come to its senses, a nuclear war if we survive, or a serious accident? Who is responsible for this ever increasing mess, the corporate media, the military industrial complex? Are the leaders of these countries or the world elitist who control them responsible? We may not have all the answers to the above questions now, but one thing is certain; at this rate the human race will pay the ultimate price sooner rather than later.

Randy Atkins
www.arsenalofhypocrisy.com/

Footnotes:

U.S. Bombing Watch
Data from William Blum Rouge State
Federation of American Scientist, Fast-Facts
U.S. Government info / Resources
The Independent
Awakened Woman E-Magazine
Pamela Bockley-O'Brian
Arms Control Association
International war crime tribunal
Allen Lutins
Zbigniew Brzezinski "The Grand Chessboard"
Wikipedia

http://www.arsenalofhypocrisy.com/article.asp
http://www.rense.com/general63/conquestbloodandmoney.htm

[Brother Les]

Joe, do you see how nice it is to have such a large Socialism Military? How do we keep all of these men and women in 'Jobs'? How do we keeps them off of the streets of America to where they can become REAL tax payers and Supporting the country instead of being a drag on the economy? By phony wars and by manufacturing phony enemies. Our Socialist military is controlled by the industrial war complex and the 1%. Our Socialist military are cannon fodder to live and die at the whim of that 1%. All Socialist communities are controled by a very few.

[TheForgiven]

Joe, you picked the Best example of how Socialism works, Thank-you.
Socialism works very very well until those with money (assets/Capitalists) have lost all of their money (assets/capital) to those who feed off of the system.

The Military ADDS NOTHING to the bottom line of the economy. It is a force that is able to only TAKE OUT and reduce the economic viability of the country. The Military PAYS NO TAXES as The Military is ONLY a Service industry of government workers (NO Government workers pay Taxes) who get their base line money from the REAL Tax Payers who Create Wealth. It (the military) creates NO Wealth and only Destroys and reduces Wealth..... EXCEPT through the actions of STEALING from others by Conquest and Force, both within their country and without against other countries.
Your example of 'Socialism' (military) is a good one for the action of NOT being equal through hard work and adding to society, but by Taking Away of the fruits of labor and asset creation of others.

This is an exaggeration of the military LES. The military itself does not plunder and steal from society as the ancient branches of service did, say with the Roman Empire. Far from it. Any soldier caught stealing or plundering from warm criminals or prisoners would be immediately be charged in a Court Martial, and possible sentence to Leavenworth; the hardest Prison on the face of the earth.

Now it is true that the military relies on Federal and State taxes to support itself. But there's nothing wrong with that. This is a protection that is provided nearly for free, individually. The DoD budget utilizes less than 10% percent of the over-all Federal budget. Translated in dollars, you as a tax payer probably only contributes about 1 dollar a month to the DoD. In exchange, you get the best protection with service men and women manning the front-lines so that you can sleep well at night, and not have to worry about war or attack. Sometimes things have happened directly on our country. But the only two events the U.S. has ever suffered were Pearl Harbor and the WTC's. While those were very tragic events, no attack on U.S. ground as ever succeeded since that time. Now could you imagine the threat the U.S would face if we had no military? So I'm sure you weren't advocating that the military is not worth tax payer dollars. :confused:

Now, the myth that military members don't pay taxes if not true. I pay both Federal, State, and Social Security taxes. I'm exempt from automobile taxes (a mere $35 bucks a year) within my state of residence, but as a retiree, I'll have to pay automotive taxes; I retire next year. I also pay property taxes, sales taxes, and every other tax that you can think of. Now you may say that my taxes are taken out of my pay, and my pay comes from your taxes. While this is true, but not without necessity. And regardless, it is still considered income. Now it's true that military members receive non-taxable subsidies such as housing and food. The only reason why the DoD provides this is to make up for the cost of living in different states or nations. It's also a way to keep from having to pay 50% percent retirement on "TOTAL PAY" as opposed the cheaper retirement on "BASE PAY". So when I retire, I'll receive 50% percent of my "BASE PAY", which is then taxed and deducted, and yes, I'll end up paying for my health care; roughly $125.00 dollars a month for Tri-care Premium, unlike the many millions who refuse to purchase health care. Taxes are vital to every system of government within any nation. Without taxes, who would pave your roads, fix your plains, monitor your food and drugs, enforce Federal and State laws, provide you with DMV services, protect our national security and defense, or monitor the friendly skies? Would you trust a civilian agency to supply these needs? Heck no! We'd end up with Capitalist pigs caring more about their "shares" instead of our protection. So that's why government jobs are so much more better than private sector jobs. Sure in the private sector, you have a better chance at getting rich. But not everyone is seeking to get rich. Most are happy with the traditional 40 hour work week (not in the military), two week pay checks (not in the military), and the chance to earn large profits through investments or small businesses.

And finally, if you look between Private Sector jobs and Public Service jobs, had it not been for the GOP trying to increase the unemployment rate by firing Public Sector employee's, we would be an example of ethical and business success. Public Sector employee's receive great health care, moderate pay, and a decent pension. Not so with the private sector. And why? Because of Capitalism; a system designed where only the elite-few obtain vast amounts of wealth, while their employee's nearly starve to death.

Every single person within the Air Force receives the exact same pay based on their rank, no matter what job you have. Why is this so successful? Because people are able to enjoy doing the job that they WANT to do, without having to choose a job that they HATE to do simply to make more money. Socialism works very well because it doesn't discriminate jobs over jobs; all are equal and all are taken care of. Capitalism is a discriminatory system that advocates a factory worker is worthless and must be scraped like a squashed bug from the bottom boots of every CEO and Executive Manager. Capitalism teaches that the greed of the few, outweighs the needs of the many.

So should I embrace such a flawed economical system? HELL NO!

Joe

[TheForgiven]

Joe, do you see how nice it is to have such a large Socialism Military? How do we keep all of these men and women in 'Jobs'? How do we keeps them off of the streets of America to where they can become REAL tax payers and Supporting the country instead of being a drag on the economy? By phony wars and by manufacturing phony enemies. Our Socialist military is controlled by the industrial war complex and the 1%. Our Socialist military are cannon fodder to live and die at the whim of that 1%. All Socialist communities are controled by a very few.

LES I know that there's corruption in our government who use war for profit. But that's not the military's fault is it? That's our leaders (CIVILIAN LEADERS) who profit from war; leaders such as Dick Cheney, and Donald Rumsfeld; both Republican's who served George Bush. Both were profiting from war. But that's not the military's fault. That's you Republican's who keep voting those bastards in office. Democrats hate war, and will only resort to deployments IF IT'S NEEDED.

You want to stop war? Then stop voting for the GOP.

Joe

[Brother Les]

Joe
You want to stop war? Then stop voting for the GOP

I did not realize that FDR was a Rino.....

And yes, he knew that the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor days (weeks) before. You see, the U.S. had broken the Japanese codes years before WWII and knew their every move.

[Brother Les]

TheForgiven;

This is an exaggeration of the military LES. Not one bit, Joe.


The military itself does not plunder and steal from society as the ancient branches of service did, say with the Roman Empire. Far from it. Any soldier caught stealing or plundering from warm criminals or prisoners would be immediately be charged in a Court Martial, and possible sentence to Leavenworth; the hardest Prison on the face of the earth.

That is what the military is for Joe. To have perpetual Peace, there must be perpertual War. To destroy, to kill, to control, to steal. Did 'we' steal Iraq..... the military did. Did 'we' steal Afganhistan? the military did and is Guarding Poppy Fields And Helping the Afganhni Drug Lords export their drugs to the U.S. and to the world. No one goes to prison when they are part of the 'Corporate System'. I have friends who showed me a picture oftheir son guarding poppy fields in Afganhistan. He told his parents tha he did not like to do it but was ordered to by his commanders. The military can only Steal and destroy or they would have no reason to exsist.


Now it is true that the military relies on Federal and State taxes to support itself. But there's nothing wrong with that. This is a protection that is provided nearly for free, individually.

Protection? provided nearly free. Tell that to the 67 countries that we have military influence in. Taxes, exstortion is paid to protect corrupt heads of state in many other countries by the US military and we have poris borders that flows open at all times



The DoD budget utilizes less than 10% percent of the over-all Federal budget. Translated in dollars, you as a tax payer probably only contributes about 1 dollar a month to the DoD.


The stated Fed budget in the news for the military is 600 Billion per year. This does not even include the Black Budget that no one knows the number, estimated at the same..... 10% is a junk number.




In exchange, you get the best protection with service men and women manning the front-lines so that you can sleep well at night, and not have to worry about war or attack.

Is this the idea of 'over there'.... destroy every other country with the idea of making this country safe of democracy...? oh, I forgot, Socialist Dictatorship.



Sometimes things have happened directly on our country. But the only two events the U.S. has ever suffered were Pearl Harbor and the WTC's. While those were very tragic events, no attack on U.S. ground as ever succeeded since that time.

Pearl Harbor.... was not in the US.... and the Government 'Powers' knew about it before it happened. WTC, the Pentagon, the Pennsylvania is a subject that could go on for pages and pages..... if you want to go there we can....You will not like what you see.


Now could you imagine the threat the U.S would face if we had no military? So I'm sure you weren't advocating that the military is not worth tax payer dollars. :confused:

We need a military for Defense. Defense. The U.S. has been in Offensive Wars for more than half of the years that I have been alive. Most of the time that you were in the military the U.S. has been in an offensive War..... Have 'we' Won ANY of those Wars? The Answer is No, No, No. What good is this offensive military that has won NO Wars or ocupartions since 1946.... Duh, over 65 years our military had only destroyed and has NEVER completed ANY Mission.


Now, the myth that military members don't pay taxes if not true. I pay both Federal, State, and Social Security taxes. I'm exempt from automobile taxes (a mere $35 bucks a year) within my state of residence, but as a retiree, I'll have to pay automotive taxes; I retire next year. I also pay property taxes, sales taxes, and every other tax that you can think of. Now you may say that my taxes are taken out of my pay, and my pay comes from your taxes. While this is true, but not without necessity. And regardless, it is still considered income.


Yes Joe, every dollar that comes to you must be stolen from someone else. What you say are 'taxes' paid by you are not created by you and there by come from somewhere else. You are a slave that creates nothing and what is given to you from what is taken from others, you also are being stolen from from you have been given that Belongs to others. You pay no Taxes because you Create NOTHING taxable.... you are known as a transfer agent. You are compensated as a pirate from what is taken from others and you in turn give a share of the 'booty' to the 'State' that allows you to be this 'transfer agent'.


Now it's true that military members receive non-taxable subsidies such as housing and food. The only reason why the DoD provides this is to make up for the cost of living in different states or nations. It's also a way to keep from having to pay 50% percent retirement on "TOTAL PAY" as opposed the cheaper retirement on "BASE PAY". So when I retire, I'll receive 50% percent of my "BASE PAY", which is then taxed and deducted, and yes, I'll end up paying for my health care; roughly $125.00 dollars a month for Tri-care Premium, unlike the many millions who refuse to purchase health care.

A soldiers pay (retirement) is dependent on the state and how much can be squeezed from the population of the home nation and those occupide nations. The State giveth and the state taketh away.



Taxes are vital to every system of government within any nation. Without taxes, who would pave your roads, fix your plains, monitor your food and drugs, enforce Federal and State laws, provide you with DMV services, protect our national security and defense, or monitor the friendly skies?

Says the Senate and Caesar?


Would you trust a civilian agency to supply these needs? Heck no! We'd end up with Capitalist pigs caring more about their "shares" instead of our protection. So that's why government jobs are so much more better than private sector jobs. Sure in the private sector, you have a better chance at getting rich. But not everyone is seeking to get rich. Most are happy with the traditional 40 hour work week (not in the military), two week pay checks (not in the military), and the chance to earn large profits through investments or small businesses.

And finally, if you look between Private Sector jobs and Public Service jobs, had it not been for the GOP trying to increase the unemployment rate by firing Public Sector employee's, we would be an example of ethical and business success. Public Sector employee's receive great health care, moderate pay, and a decent pension. Not so with the private sector. And why? Because of Capitalism; a system designed where only the elite-few obtain vast amounts of wealth, while their employee's nearly starve to death.'Public Sector' job are Always a drag and drain on the economy as a whole. 'public sector' employees have 'great' health care, pay, decent pension.... and you say 'No so' with the private sector...? These statements really really show how little that you know in economic reality.....
Joe, the reason 'why' it is so great to have a 'Public Sector' job is because The Private Sector pays For It All....


Every single person within the Air Force receives the exact same pay based on their rank, no matter what job you have. Why is this so successful? Because people are able to enjoy doing the job that they WANT to do, without having to choose a job that they HATE to do simply to make more money. Socialism works very well because it doesn't discriminate jobs over jobs; all are equal and all are taken care of. Capitalism is a discriminatory system that advocates a factory worker is worthless and must be scraped like a squashed bug from the bottom boots of every CEO and Executive Manager. Capitalism teaches that the greed of the few, outweighs the needs of the many.

So should I embrace such a flawed economical system? HELL NO!

Joe

Joe, Socialism is a flawed economical system. That IS the system that YOU live in by being IN the military. Sucking hard assets out of the economy and not putting anything back in. Look at Greece...I have read that around 60% of the population works in some kind of 'Public' job. That means that the 40% of the Private Sector is supporting 100% of the population. that will only work for so long until the whole system collapses.




but...a-lass, our conversation is void and mute anyway because the die is cast and the MASSIVE DEBT(money that can never be repaid) borrowing by Liberals is about to collapse what is left of our economic system and way of life. Guns, ammo, and liquor is the Rule for the Day

[Tomret]

CAPITALISM VS. SOCIALISM

We've heard from the Republican side as it was reported by a very biased News Media Network FOX, supposedly "Fair and Balanced" :lol: [Yea right! As if!] that the 99% percent is comprised of a bunch of drug addicts, goons, and bums. But this is far from the truth. MSMBC's Ed Shultz has went live to many of their protests all throughout the nation. One such person who was involved is the famous Michael Myers from Austin Powers, who supported and agreed with the 99% percent Protesters out there. The majority of the Protesters are folks who have lost their jobs, down to college students who have degrees which cost them up to $45,000 dollars to obtain and are now in student debt. Now it is true that a few within the crowd may be simple homeless bums or drug addicts. But if that were the case, then perhaps FOX should ask where they got the money to buy the tents they're sleeping in, or where they got the merchandise such as T-Shirts that are being sold. Better yet, where did they get the materials to make the signs. Did this "bums" and "Drug addicts" dig through trash cans to make their signs, T-Shirts, or merchandise for sell?

Here (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/02/us-usa-wallstreet-protests-money-idUSTRE7A12DY20111102) is where they get their money. You can offer your support at WePay if you like, if you agree with their solution, "world revolution" (http://occupywallst.org/). You'd think with a half million bucks they could rent a couple dozen port-a-potties to avoid this (http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-10-26/news/30323629_1_protesters-bathroom-burger-king). Oh, I forgot, their mantra is 'shit on you evil corporations.' :)

They have a right to voice their opinions through protest, but such a siege which has no end in sight becomes a nuisance costing millions in tax dollars and more millions in lost tourism revenue. And they are NOT the 99% as evident here (http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html). Compare Group's Share of Total AGI and Group's Share of Income Taxes of various brackets in Table 1. For all their protesting, their prolific use of laptops, notebooks, cell phones, cameras, video cams, and miscellaneous supplies produced by capitalist pigs shouts hypocrisy.



FOX news reports that the 99 are protesting Capitalism, as if our nation is even a Capitalistic society. But that is the largest lie ever to walk the face of the earth. Corporations receiving tax breaks, or tax incentives, so that they will "behave" in a certain manner is far from capitalism. On a side note, I find it quite interesting that the GOP is trying to get rid of Social Security, Medicaid, and Medicare, because they say we can't afford it. OH, but we can still afford tax incentives for Big Oil companies comprised of about 12 BILLION dollars in a 10 year period! We can afford to give farmers tax incentives NOT TO GROW TOO MUCH CORN OR WHEAT in order to keep prices up for produce! We can afford Congresses House Majority pay/pension increases of 25% percent (as seen last night on MSNBC). But for some reason, we can't afford social security, medicaid, medicare, Veteran disability pensions, military pensions, student loans, nor anything else. What they really mean to say folks is that any welfare used to help the middle class and the poor is too expensive. But when it comes to corporate welfare or incentives, sure we've got the money for that. After all, we don't want to hurt the "JOB CREATORS". What a bunch of horse crap! Corporations are anything but JOB CREATORS! THEY'RE MORE LIKE PROFITEERS for the SHAREHOLDERS as opposed to Job Creators. The cold hard truth is that it's all about profits for the share holders and not the employee's. That's the sad truth that has oppressed our nation for the past 30 years.

NOW, are we, in the United States, a Capitalist society? :lol: Only a brain washed idiot would think that. From corporate welfare to incentives, we are anything but a Capitalist society, and are more Socialist.

Now, what's so bad about Socialism? Some argue that Socialism demotes the incentive to "rise and climb" to success. That is the most ignorant and misinformed myth to date. The United States military is a Socialist agency. An Aircraft Mechanic within the Air Force gets paid the exact same pay as a cook working in a Dining facility, respective of their rank of course. SO an E-5 working as a Supervisor in an aircraft maintenance unit receives the same amount of pay and benefits as an E-5 working in a Dining Facility. The reason why the military does this is because no matter what specialty you are trained to do, you are valuable and important to the military, and the military needs you. An aircraft Pilot makes the same amount of money as a unit commander who never flies. A plummer makes the same amount of money as the metal fabricator. I think we get the point. And in each of these specialty skills, the military requires that you do the very best that you can no matter what skill you are trained on. And in all this, nobody is above or below their associate, notwithstanding their pay-grade of course. But this system works. Morale, although low these days due to force shaping and reduction, is generally pretty well in most cases, unless of course a person was put into a specialty they did not want to perform; that's an entirely different circumstance. Specialty assignment is selected based on the demands within a given career, and also how the member scores on their ASVAB test.

In all this, the military is a proven agency that Socialism works just fine. Many within each specialty strive for perfection no matter what career they've chosen or have been assigned. And all receive the same pay based on rank, as well as the same retirement pension and health care. SO, that leaves me to wonder why the civilian sector has a hard time accepting this. There's really only one reason why some would hate this form of social engineering. GREED!!!! When it all comes down to it, it's all about Greed. And right now, our country (for the past 30 years) has been turned into a nation where only the Executives and the CEO'S are entitled to wealth, and everyone else below them, no matter how many years of training or education was required to work for these people, do not deserve a piece of the pie. This kind of inequality has led to the largest Wall Street extortion of the public since the great depression in 1929. Laws and regulations were established to prevent that from happening again. But those laws and regulations were removed when George Bush took office. And in 2008, everything started coming down. Now the 1% to 2% percent within our nation has set the bar for wealth. Unless you are a CEO of some business or law firm, you are not entitled to sharing wealth. It's gotten to the points that the only ones who feel they have the right to make money are the share holders; those who play the stock market. Right now, all major corporations are sitting on the largest sum of capital in recorded history; between $6 to $7 TRILLION DOLLARS IN CAPITAL and that's never happened before. And what are they doing with this money? It's certainly not going to wages, tips, or salaries. It's all being stored away in offshore accounts (to evade badly needed tax revenue) or they simply throw it in Wall Street looking for ways to increase its wealth. And everyone knows that Wall Street accumulates its wealth from high interest rate loans. And THAT is the reason why corporations don't want to pay the middle class higher rates. They WANT you to take out loans to buy products because money-from-money is how they prefer to accumulate wealth. Sure they want you to buy their products, especially the ones made overseas. :lol: But the last thing they want is for someone to pay cash for their products; especially a middle class employee. These rich tycoons want you dependent on banks to buy their products because that enables them to collect profit in two ways; the sell of their product, and the money borrowed to buy their products or services. This is what their "Free Market" society is all about; economical engineering and control.

In conclusion, I've shown you that the United States is far from a Capitalistic society. Large corporations, down to the poorest American, all receives tax breaks or tax incentives to "behave" in a certain manner, or to be rewarded for a certain manner. The U.S. Military is a perfect example of just how well Socialism works. People are paid based on their rank, and not their skill, and all without each skilled employee of the military, receive the same pay-grade check, retirement, and health care. Perhaps if the civilian sector adapted to the military professional structure, the playing field would be level. But again, only one entity prevents this from ever succeeding. GREED! If you consider the Church (Kingdom of Christ), there are those who are first, and those who are last, yet all of them receive the same award. If our nation could free itself from global greed, and learn to keep their neighbor in mind, instead of their shares, we would be far better than what we are, with no 99'ers out there.

Joe

So far the only proposals for reforming the corrupt tax code have come from the GOP. The US military is by necessity dictatorial, i.e. follow your orders. It's also somewhat socialist as to pay, benefits, etc., but has a capitalist incentive in that good performance can result in higher rank and pay. If you're pro socialism, Joe, which of these (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/56207/list_of_socialist_countries_with_individual.html?c at=37) do you think we should copy? Sweden doesn't sound too bad, except for 28-59% tax rate. Odd, their socialism doesn't eliminate top managers making 50 times more (http://www.thelocal.se/17344/20090204/#) than a common laborer. Be careful what you ask for, Joe.

[TheForgiven]

Not one bit, Joe.



That is what the military is for Joe. To have perpetual Peace, there must be perpertual War. To destroy, to kill, to control, to steal. Did 'we' steal Iraq..... the military did. Did 'we' steal Afganhistan? the military did and is Guarding Poppy Fields And Helping the Afganhni Drug Lords export their drugs to the U.S. and to the world. No one goes to prison when they are part of the 'Corporate System'. I have friends who showed me a picture oftheir son guarding poppy fields in Afganhistan. He told his parents tha he did not like to do it but was ordered to by his commanders. The military can only Steal and destroy or they would have no reason to exsist.



Protection? provided nearly free. Tell that to the 67 countries that we have military influence in. Taxes, exstortion is paid to protect corrupt heads of state in many other countries by the US military and we have poris borders that flows open at all times


.


The stated Fed budget in the news for the military is 600 Billion per year. This does not even include the Black Budget that no one knows the number, estimated at the same..... 10% is a junk number.



.

Is this the idea of 'over there'.... destroy every other country with the idea of making this country safe of democracy...? oh, I forgot, Socialist Dictatorship.




Pearl Harbor.... was not in the US.... and the Government 'Powers' knew about it before it happened. WTC, the Pentagon, the Pennsylvania is a subject that could go on for pages and pages..... if you want to go there we can....You will not like what you see.



We need a military for Defense. Defense. The U.S. has been in Offensive Wars for more than half of the years that I have been alive. Most of the time that you were in the military the U.S. has been in an offensive War..... Have 'we' Won ANY of those Wars? The Answer is No, No, No. What good is this offensive military that has won NO Wars or ocupartions since 1946.... Duh, over 65 years our military had only destroyed and has NEVER completed ANY Mission.




Yes Joe, every dollar that comes to you must be stolen from someone else. What you say are 'taxes' paid by you are not created by you and there by come from somewhere else. You are a slave that creates nothing and what is given to you from what is taken from others, you also are being stolen from from you have been given that Belongs to others. You pay no Taxes because you Create NOTHING taxable.... you are known as a transfer agent. You are compensated as a pirate from what is taken from others and you in turn give a share of the 'booty' to the 'State' that allows you to be this 'transfer agent'.



A soldiers pay (retirement) is dependent on the state and how much can be squeezed from the population of the home nation and those occupide nations. The State giveth and the state taketh away.




Says the Senate and Caesar?

'Public Sector' job are Always a drag and drain on the economy as a whole. 'public sector' employees have 'great' health care, pay, decent pension.... and you say 'No so' with the private sector...? These statements really really show how little that you know in economic reality.....
Joe, the reason 'why' it is so great to have a 'Public Sector' job is because The Private Sector pays For It All....



Joe, Socialism is a flawed economical system. That IS the system that YOU live in by being IN the military. Sucking hard assets out of the economy and not putting anything back in. Look at Greece...I have read that around 60% of the population works in some kind of 'Public' job. That means that the 40% of the Private Sector is supporting 100% of the population. that will only work for so long until the whole system collapses.




but...a-lass, our conversation is void and mute anyway because the die is cast and the MASSIVE DEBT(money that can never be repaid) borrowing by Liberals is about to collapse what is left of our economic system and way of life. Guns, ammo, and liquor is the Rule for the Day

You're not going to throw your conspiracy theories at me are you? You actually think the military is that bad? Have you ever served your country LES? Have you ever joined any branch of service? Are you also one of those guys who says that we never landed on the moon?

You can't honestly tell me that Pearl Happened with the full consent and knowledge of our political leaders. And you can't tell me that the World Trade Centers were attacked with U.S. governmental consent. This is all non-sense.

And no matter how you look at it, with regards to taxes paying government employee's, what do you suggest then. Do you own a car? Who do you think paves those highways you drive on? GOVERNMENT! Did you attend school? Who do you think pays those teachers who instructed you nearly 7 hours a day? GOVERNMENT! Do you possess a valid drivers license? Who do you think gave you that document? THE GOVERNMENT. Without government no society could survive. Now I agree that government is corrupt, but trust me. When it comes to military activities with war, I'm pretty sure I know a hell of a lot more than you do LES; no offense of course. I know the reasons we invaded Iraq. Did I agree with it? No, but Saddam was a bad man who killed more than a million of his own race. But that was the Republicans who dragged us into that war, using false information that he had weapons of mass destruction. Did he have them? Sure he did because it was our government that sold chemical weapons and guns during the Reagon administration. As for the Afgan war, that was necessary in our attempts to find and hunt down the guys responsible for the deaths of more than 3,000 citizens who were killed in the WTC attack. And I promise you. If any family members saw what you wrote, they would slap you bro.

I'm very insulted that you look so down on the military. The Pentagon had absolutely nothing to do with the WTC attacks. The Clinton administration warned the Bush administration that Osama Ben Laiden was planning on attacking the world trade centers. He tried before but failed, if you can remember the attempted attack on the WTC's in the 90's. The Bush administration did not heed the warning. Who would? We're America! Nobody could attack us on our own soil. At least so we thought. And boy did we get caught with our pants down.

Now as for taxes, you're delusional my friend if you think that true taxes are only paid from earned income. Are you suggesting that every firemen, teacher, soldier, or other Public Employee do not "earn" their income? What do you suppose that we do LES? Shut down government, shut down every single Public Service agency, so you can save a few bucks on YOUR taxes? You're crying over spilled milk here. Your safety and freedom comes at a cost, of which you have done nothing to contribute EXCEPT by being a good citizen and paying your taxes.

I get the feeling that you are anti-military. Well, if you indulge in the freedoms that you have as an American citizen, then shame on you LES. Your freedoms, what little or many we may have today, came at the cost of American lives. And I can vouch for every single brother or sister who has volunteered their services to take up arms, that NONE OF THEM have ever done what they were not ordered to do. None of them steal or rob from nations. None of them murder for the sake of murdering someone. If their leaders ordered them to do something that was not ethically morale, that's an entirely different story.

Yes war is corrupt! Yes war is bad! But even God is a God of war! Who do you think sent destruction upon Apostate Israel? Was is not Paul who stated that governments or leaders were put in place as a means to correct children of disobedience? Could the world as we know it survive without any form of government?

You're not only anti-military (shame on you for that), but you're anti-government as well. Well I need my government! I love my government! I may dislike its practices, especially with corrupt politicians being bought out. But you cannot have a Democracy without government. It's just not possible. Without the establishment of a government, society would be chaotic with no rule of law or discipline. And who establishes the laws of the land? Government.

Now I don't get involved with fictional conspiracy theories about war. Yes I know that there are corrupt leaders who feed from war because it's great on the Pay-Day. But I, as a soldier, do not have the authority to question my orders. I could question the orders if I felt it were unethical. But there's a fine line to be drawn when it comes to that. And I can assure you, I will not risk my career or life questioning the orders of my superiors above me, if I knew I'd be facing prison time.

Civilians pay taxes to receive government services that are vital to our nation. So whether you like it or not, we've EARNED our money, and I pay taxes on what I've EARNED. Not what you THINK I've earned.

This Thread was not intended to draw heat. But LES, I'm very offended at you right now! It sickens me that my brothers and sisters had to die to protect the freedom of speech you've just tossed to the side as though everyone within the military doesn't deserve their pay-check because our income comes from taxes. Heck, we may as well not even have a President, or any congressional leaders, because LES has a problem with paying taxes.

I quote, "Render unto Caesars, the things that are Caesars. But render unto God, the things that are God's". Jesus never said not to pay taxes. Jesus never said not to have a military. In fact, He told a Roman soldier, "Do only what you must, but nothing more". He didn't say, "I'm against the military, so you need to ask for an early discharge".

I apologize for coming off as a bit abrasive, but you've insulted everyone who has taken up arms, and given their lives FOR YOU LES! If you love your country, then pay your taxes. If you don't even want to do that, then go find a small island and settle down there, with your own rule of law.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

Here (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/02/us-usa-wallstreet-protests-money-idUSTRE7A12DY20111102) is where they get their money. You can offer your support at WePay if you like, if you agree with their solution, "world revolution" (http://occupywallst.org/). You'd think with a half million bucks they could rent a couple dozen port-a-potties to avoid this (http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-10-26/news/30323629_1_protesters-bathroom-burger-king). Oh, I forgot, their mantra is 'shit on you evil corporations.' :)

LOL! So I take it you are against the 99% percent. So who's side are you on then? The 1% percent who uses the rule of law to extort money from the economy?


They have a right to voice their opinions through protest, but such a siege which has no end in sight becomes a nuisance costing millions in tax dollars and more millions in lost tourism revenue. And they are NOT the 99% as evident

How is it costing millions in tax dollars to express your right to free speech? The police officers? Well who's fault is that? It's not like they are rioting or shooting anyone. They are protesting the unfair practices of Wall Street. What's wrong with that? Should they simply bind over and take it a like a man? HECK NO! Without the power of our speech, Bank of America would have won the fight against the middle class in charging all of its customers $5.00 bucks to use a bank card. But when they saw the threat of customers leaving for another bank, they backed down, now searching for another way to get money from the middle class. You see? That's how these Capitalist pigs think. Capitalism seeks to obtain wealth by any means necessary, NO MATTER WHAT! Well, not any more my friend; not any more. The CEO of Bank of America can be ticked off all that he wants. But he's not getting any of my hard-earned money.


here (http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html). Compare Group's Share of Total AGI and Group's Share of Income Taxes of various brackets in Table 1. For all their protesting, their prolific use of laptops, notebooks, cell phones, cameras, video cams, and miscellaneous supplies produced by capitalist pigs shouts hypocrisy.

What? So middle class protesters of the 99 aren't allowed to have a lap top? I supposed they shouldn't have clothes either. :lol: This is a typical response from greedy rich people who think that they are the only ones entitled to a home, a car, a computer, or even food on the table. It's gotten so bad that rich folks actually believe they are entitled to extort wealth from hidden fees, credit card extortion, high interest rate loans, and buying up foreclosed homes at cheap price. The 99 has every right to purchase what ever they want. The complaints (if you've actually listen to their issues) is that the richest American's are making it very difficult to live. The cost of living keeps going up, our wages are not going up, the cost of health care keeps going up, they've got all of the control and the power, and the money keeps flowing up to the very ones who are making life difficult for the 99% percent of all American's. And they're wondering why we're pissed off? We're not asking for a free hand-out. We're asking for a fair deal. If I, as an employee of a major manufacturing plant, contributed to the success and wealth of a company that hired me, I should be compensated for my contributions. NOT SPIT ON as though I were worthless.


So far the only proposals for reforming the corrupt tax code have come from the GOP.

Yea, and that's their proposal? More tax breaks for the rich! More tax incentives for the Rich! More deregulation for corporations to pollute our air, drive up interest rats, and feed the fat-cats up in Washington. But let's cut out medicare, medicaid, and welfare for the poorest of American's. BUT NOOOO! Don't take away Corporate welfare to our JOB CREATORS! Yea right! Their tax code only benefits the wealthy and craps all over the rest of America.


The US military is by necessity dictatorial, i.e. follow your orders. It's also somewhat socialist as to pay, benefits, etc., but has a capitalist incentive in that good performance can result in higher rank and pay. If you're pro socialism, Joe, which of these (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/56207/list_of_socialist_countries_with_individual.html?c at=37) do you think we should copy? Sweden doesn't sound too bad, except for 28-59% tax rate. Odd, their socialism doesn't eliminate top managers making 50 times more (http://www.thelocal.se/17344/20090204/#) than a common laborer. Be careful what you ask for, Joe.[/QUOTE]

The US Military is a dictatorship. Ever heard of one that wasn't? :lol: How could orders be imposed if they were not followed? You follow orders or people die. As for Socialism, I've already proven to you that WE ARE a Socialist country. What do you call tax breaks for Big Oil despite record profits? Socialism. What do you call farmers being paid money by the government not to grow crops in excess? Socialism. What do you call wealthy Wall Street tycoons begging for no-taxes on their capital gains or dividends? Socialism. We are a country mixed with Socialistic ideas and Capitalistic ideas. And the only ones benefiting from it are the very pigs who occupy Washington. Did you happen to miss the 25% percent pay raise the House gave themselves? Must be nice...a 24% percent pay raise so they could vote on petty issues like, "In God We Trust" and "abortion" and "gun ownership". Yes, there's your hard-earned tax dollars at work. Instead of trying to resolve the Jobs in America crisis, they (GOP of the House) spent the past two months voting on guns, abortion, and In-God-We-Trust. :lol:

The GOP a plan? What ever!

Joe

[Brother Les]

Joe, Do you feel better getting all of that off of your chest?

The problems in this country really do not boil down to a Right vs Left or Republican vs Democrat paradigm.

Don't push me on my support of the military, it makes you sound like a fool.

You are just a pawn in this play as we all are. Please..., go ahead and protest far and wide. The debt load in this country and around the world can not be sustained for very much longer. The reality is that you are about 30years to late in your ideals of the 99%. I am not against many of those ideals at all, but at this late date in the game of world economics, there is very little to be done about. The 'rich' and the 'poor', the 'great' and 'small', will in a very few years fall into their true carnal nature. Money will be worthless, food supplies will dry up, guns will rule the day as the strong will prey on the weak to just survive. I have seen this play out over and over again in places that our military have gone.... Vietnam, Korea, Iraq.... well, it will come here very soon. Don't rag on me because of your woes that the 'military' has done to you.... it is part of the Game and you are just a pawn to be moved and to be sacrificed at the will of others. You have been kicked to the curb and now it is time to come back to the Real World and not of that of your closed and insulated society.

I Love you Joe, but don't rag on me on issures that are neither mine or your making.

[TheForgiven]

Joe, Do you feel better getting all of that off of your chest?

The problems in this country really do not boil down to a Right vs Left or Republican vs Democrat paradigm.

Don't push me on my support of the military, it makes you sound like a fool.

You are just a pawn in this play as we all are. Please..., go ahead and protest far and wide. The debt load in this country and around the world can not be sustained for very much longer. The reality is that you are about 30years to late in your ideals of the 99%. I am not against many of those ideals at all, but at this late date in the game of world economics, there is very little to be done about. The 'rich' and the 'poor', the 'great' and 'small', will in a very few years fall into their true carnal nature. Money will be worthless, food supplies will dry up, guns will rule the day as the strong will prey on the weak to just survive. I have seen this play out over and over again in places that our military have gone.... Vietnam, Korea, Iraq.... well, it will come here very soon. Don't rag on me because of your woes that the 'military' has done to you.... it is part of the Game and you are just a pawn to be moved and to be sacrificed at the will of others. You have been kicked to the curb and now it is time to come back to the Real World and not of that of your closed and insulated society.

I Love you Joe, but don't rag on me on issures that are neither mine or your making.

The debit is not high because of the middle class, the poor, the retiree's, or any such person. Sure they contribute to the national debt., but the largest reason why the debt is so high is because of or Political leaders receiving life-time retirement for only 4 years of service; that plus health care. Another reason why the debt. is so high is because the very rich have been evading taxes, and not reporting their income. They've been hiding much of their wealth in offshore accounts. And finally, the debt. is so high because of the huge tax breaks for the rich. We're talking billions of lost revenue for Big Oil especially.

Rich Corporations do not pay pay-roll taxes. They wait until the end of the year, and after many loop-holes in the tax code, they pay income taxes on what they report to the IRS. WE, on the other hand, have our taxes taken before we even see our paycheck. So, unlike them, we are unable to hide our salaries in a foreign bank, or some cash-valued asset offshore.

The rich, after loop holes and deductions, only about about 25% percent income taxes on their reported annual salaries. The middle class and the poor, pay 32% percent Federal and State all year long, and at the end of the year, depending on their dependency status, they usually get a child-tax credit and a small refund. So although by the end of the year, it may appear that they pay no taxes, in truth they are giving Uncle Sam an interest free loan from their monthly payroll taxes, which Uncle Sam invests within the stock market. That's why the IRS has no problem issuing refunds to those who have been paying them monthly Federal and State taxes.

The rich, on the other hand, do not pay monthly income taxes; that comes at the end of the year, so they're able to keep their monthly income, and invest it because their salaries are so high. So a personal earning more than $50,000 thousand dollars a month gets to hide and invest his money before the end of the year, and only ends up paying taxes on what he chooses to report.

THIS is why the Government is starved for badly needed revenue. So it's got nothing to do with retired government employee's (except for Political leaders), especially the military, who have earned their paychecks.

Now if you don't like the military, then that's your problem my friend. The military has been supporting your safety your entire life. And the government gave you a free education made possible by the taxpayers. If we had no government, then education would not be free. This means you'd have to pay for an education. And if that were the case, then hardly any parent could afford to put their children in school.

Our government is not perfect. But if anyone deserves blame for our economy, it's the greedy rich corporations who have fished this pond so dry that there isn't enough capital floating around the economy for us to sustain ourselves. As Michael Moore put it, Corporate investors retain about 60% percent of their capital in cash valued assets abroad, or with Wall Street. The remaining 40% percent of America's wealth circulates around the economy. But that is not enough money to sustain business employee's NOR the government. So the rich have 99% percent of all American's fighting over 40% percent of America's value. This is factual data presented by Ed Shultz of MSNBC and Michael Moore.

And finally, the Department of Defense only utilized 10% percent of the over-all Federal Budget. The Veterans Administration is a totally different pile of money, and does not come from the DoD. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the DoD uses more than 10% percent of the Federal Budget, but there's a hell of a lot more government expenses than the military my friend. And quite frankly, I believe you owe the military an apology with your insulting behavior towards those who's blood was spilled to protect YOU and all of us. They deserve more honor than what you're giving them. You can hate our leaders, but don't ever blame war or bad behavior on the military. War is not determined by the DoD. War is determined, caused, and promoted by our civilian elected officials of the Congress. The United States is not a military dictatorship, although I do believe that sometimes we'd be better off if it were. When I, as a Supervisor, give an order to a young troop, it's followed and sometimes with pride, as long as they know my standards and that I'm not out to get them, or to slave-drive them. The orders I give are in the best interest of my Flight/Unit.

Joe

[Brother Les]

Joe, 30years ago you may have had a seemly argument. I was a Union Member for 15 years and know the drill. The Plant where I worked was bought by a bigger company and 'my' Plant.... was down sized... to nothing.I know what it is like to be 'shown the door', from a place that was my whole life. GATT and NAFTA has accelerated the demis of the middleclass. The class that supports the military. I support High Tarriffs and Duties to protect U.S. jobs.....


Don't try to put me in a light that I am not in. You have not walked in my shoes nor I in yours.


You preach a message that is 30years to old.... it is way past the time to avoid a total U.S. economic collapes.

[Brother Les]

From a political site.....


The situation in Europe is making it clear to all but the most brainwashed that something historical is taking place. What is happening is that the criminal element at the very top of the Western power structure, especially at the very top of the financial system, has been cut off from their money printing machine. As a result, the IMF and the major European and US money center banks are insolvent. No amount of lying or paper shuffling or propaganda is going to hide this fundamental truth. The governments of Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Italy etc. know that the debts they supposedly owe to bankers were created through fraudulent book entries and thus do not have to be repaid. That is why the banks suddenly announced that Greece only had to pay back 50% of their debt even though such a write off would destroy them. They are hoping for a tax payer bail-out that is just not going to happen. It is game over. The Rothschild banking nightmare is ending.

[Tomret]

Quote: Tomret
Here is where they get their money. You can offer your support at WePay if you like, if you agree with their solution, "world revolution". You'd think with a half million bucks they could rent a couple dozen port-a-potties to avoid this. Oh, I forgot, their mantra is 'shit on you evil corporations.'
LOL! So I take it you are against the 99% percent. So who's side are you on then? The 1% percent who uses the rule of law to extort money from the economy?

No, I'm against the minority misrepresenting themselves as the majority for the purpose of overthrowing our constitutional republic. I'm on the side of our capitalist system - even with all its faults - as opposed to that list of socialist countries I linked to (you didn't answer which one you think we should copy). Apparently you don't object to "world revolution." The 1% and all other taxpayers use the rule of law (the convoluted tax code) to calculate their tax liability. Extort money from the economy? You think they take money from the economy and bury it in mason jars on their estates? If so, they never would have gotten rich. They invest providing capitol to companies to invent and produce goods, or start their own companies. They buy mansions, expensive cars, airplanes, etc. that workers had to produce, and which require employees to maintain. They establish philanthropic organizations, donate to hospitals and universities. I'm sure you can find exceptions, but as a group, they are not the evil hoarders you and the protestors make them out to be.


Quote: Tomret
They have a right to voice their opinions through protest, but such a siege which has no end in sight becomes a nuisance costing millions in tax dollars and more millions in lost tourism revenue. And they are NOT the 99% as evident
How is it costing millions in tax dollars to express your right to free speech? The police officers? Well who's fault is that? It's not like they are rioting or shooting anyone. They are protesting the unfair practices of Wall Street. What's wrong with that? Should they simply bind over and take it a like a man? HECK NO! Without the power of our speech, Bank of America would have won the fight against the middle class in charging all of its customers $5.00 bucks to use a bank card. But when they saw the threat of customers leaving for another bank, they backed down, now searching for another way to get money from the middle class. You see? That's how these Capitalist pigs think. Capitalism seeks to obtain wealth by any means necessary, NO MATTER WHAT! Well, not any more my friend; not any more. The CEO of Bank of America can be ticked off all that he wants. But he's not getting any of my hard-earned money.

Police are necessary for traffic control and to discourage violence by or against protestors in such large crowds. Have you seen the violent protests in Europe and elsewhere? If you had looked at the "world revolution" link you would have seen this, "Following Israel and Oakland's example, we join this month of global uprising. We stand in solidarity with those who are organizing the actions that are creating the fabric of our new movement." Speaking of Oakland, see this update (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2011-11-02/occupy-wall-street-veterans/51046142/1). The Bank of America customers got results without disruptive demonstrations in the streets.



Quote: Tomret
here. Compare Group's Share of Total AGI and Group's Share of Income Taxes of various brackets in Table 1. For all their protesting, their prolific use of laptops, notebooks, cell phones, cameras, video cams, and miscellaneous supplies produced by capitalist pigs shouts hypocrisy.
What? So middle class protesters of the 99 aren't allowed to have a lap top? I supposed they shouldn't have clothes either. This is a typical response from greedy rich people who think that they are the only ones entitled to a home, a car, a computer, or even food on the table. It's gotten so bad that rich folks actually believe they are entitled to extort wealth from hidden fees, credit card extortion, high interest rate loans, and buying up foreclosed homes at cheap price. The 99 has every right to purchase what ever they want. The complaints (if you've actually listen to their issues) is that the richest American's are making it very difficult to live. The cost of living keeps going up, our wages are not going up, the cost of health care keeps going up, they've got all of the control and the power, and the money keeps flowing up to the very ones who are making life difficult for the 99% percent of all American's. And they're wondering why we're pissed off? We're not asking for a free hand-out. We're asking for a fair deal. If I, as an employee of a major manufacturing plant, contributed to the success and wealth of a company that hired me, I should be compensated for my contributions. NOT SPIT ON as though I were worthless.

Me? Rich? Hardly, my income is Social Security and company pension. I also have an IRA (resulting from 2 decades of 401K contributions and investments) that I can draw from, but the balance is not in the 'rich' category. However many of those protestors fall into the rich category as shown here (http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/02/nyc-arrest-records-many-occupy-wall-street-protesters-live-in-luxury/) and here (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2047664/Occupy-Wall-Street-Children-1-good-time-protests.html). Some are there just to party and let the good times roll. And at 2 minutes 25 seconds into the video "Right Here All Over (Occupy Wall St.)" near the bottom of http://occupywallst.org/ there was lots of rolling going on. Joints for everybody!

I didn't say they shouldn't own those things, just pointed out their hypocrisy. Were it not for entrepreneurs like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates et al they wouldn't have the means to organize and publicize their protest as well as they do.

Cost of living? Just wait, the policies of global central bankers (like the Fed) based on Keynesian economic theory (spend our way out of debt, print money as necessary) are rushing headlong toward hyper inflation.



Quote: Tomret
So far the only proposals for reforming the corrupt tax code have come from the GOP.
Yea, and that's their proposal? More tax breaks for the rich! More tax incentives for the Rich! More deregulation for corporations to pollute our air, drive up interest rats, and feed the fat-cats up in Washington. But let's cut out medicare, medicaid, and welfare for the poorest of American's. BUT NOOOO! Don't take away Corporate welfare to our JOB CREATORS! Yea right! Their tax code only benefits the wealthy and craps all over the rest of America.


Quote: Tomret
The US military is by necessity dictatorial, i.e. follow your orders. It's also somewhat socialist as to pay, benefits, etc., but has a capitalist incentive in that good performance can result in higher rank and pay. If you're pro socialism, Joe, which of these do you think we should copy? Sweden doesn't sound too bad, except for 28-59% tax rate. Odd, their socialism doesn't eliminate top managers making 50 times more than a common laborer. Be careful what you ask for, Joe.

The US Military is a dictatorship. Ever heard of one that wasn't? How could orders be imposed if they were not followed? You follow orders or people die. As for Socialism, I've already proven to you that WE ARE a Socialist country. What do you call tax breaks for Big Oil despite record profits? Socialism. What do you call farmers being paid money by the government not to grow crops in excess? Socialism. What do you call wealthy Wall Street tycoons begging for no-taxes on their capital gains or dividends? Socialism. We are a country mixed with Socialistic ideas and Capitalistic ideas. And the only ones benefiting from it are the very pigs who occupy Washington. Did you happen to miss the 25% percent pay raise the House gave themselves? Must be nice...a 24% percent pay raise so they could vote on petty issues like, "In God We Trust" and "abortion" and "gun ownership". Yes, there's your hard-earned tax dollars at work. Instead of trying to resolve the Jobs in America crisis, they (GOP of the House) spent the past two months voting on guns, abortion, and In-God-We-Trust.

You've not proven that to me, but if that list of things you hate are socialism, why are you pro socialist? According to your words above, you already have the system you want! I oppose social engineering tactics. Consider this (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-19/both-parties-wrong-on-tax-breaks-for-big-oil-commentary-by-caroline-baum.html):


The tax deduction in question was enacted in 2004 and applies to all domestic manufacturers, not just oil and gas companies. It was designed to increase competitiveness in the face of the U.S.’s 35 percent corporate tax rate, among the highest in the developed world.

Democrats settled on the five biggest oil producers as their first target. These companies just happened to earn a combined $36 billion in the first quarter.

Lawmakers recognized the high tax rate was a problem, but instead of simply lowering it to a competitive level, they added more convolution to an already unintelligible tax code. Follow the 'tax deduction' link in the article to see how much. Instead of singling out one industry why not just repeal that law and adjust the tax rate!?! Because that would not generate headlines furthering class warfare. I recognize there are many problems and inequities in our country, but overthrowing our constitutional republic in favor of a socialist system is not the solution. The Sweden example shows socialism does not eliminate inequities, and can lead to dictatorships like many of the rest of the countries on that list. As for guns, abortion, and In-God-We-Trust, those have not been the SOLE focus of the GOP, but I do consider them important and worthy of attention.


The GOP a plan? What ever!

What is the Dem's plan to simplify the convoluted tax code?

[Brother Les]

Joe
The GOP a plan? What ever!

What is the Dem's plan to simplify the convoluted tax code?
__________________
Blessings, Tom Case

For the last two years of Democrat controled of the House of Representitives NO Budget was ever made. In the last two years of the Democrat controled Senate, NO Budget was ever made.

This is unprecedented where one party has control over both sides of the Legislature and the Presidency and can not come up with a budget or even try to create one.

[TheForgiven]

For the last two years of Democrat controled of the House of Representitives NO Budget was ever made. In the last two years of the Democrat controled Senate, NO Budget was ever made.

This is unprecedented where one party has control over both sides of the Legislature and the Presidency and can not come up with a budget or even try to create one.

That's not true. President Obama has a plan, and it's a fair plan. He's proposing to take us back to the Clinton years when the rich payed 39% percent income tax. This badly needed revenue would put more than a million unemployed back to work. Teachers would be rehired, construction workers would not be sitting around collecting unemployment, infrastucture of our highways, bridges, and buildings would be rebuilt, firemen will not have to worry about losing their jobs, more police officers, and so forth. This would also stimulate the economy by putting money in the pockets of the "spenders"; you know, the ones who keep the economy going? We can't count on the rich to keep the economy going because they don't like to "spend" money; they'd rather invest it or store it in stocks or cash assets in offshore accounts.

But here's the brunt of it all. IF the corporations would pay higher wages to their employees instead of their CEO's and Executives, then the middle class would not have to rely on government assistance. And because the middle class would be in a higher tax bracket, most would not qualify for the child-tax credit. What does this all mean? More money being spend IN THE ECONOMY and NOT IN WALL STREET.

Why is this stuff so hard to understand? Financial Institutions are only concerned with the "bottom line". If they put just as much interest in their employee's, as they do with their stocks and investments, then our economy would be just as strong as it was in the 90's. Bill Clinton's administration managed to have a huge tax-surplus. What in the hell happened to that Surplus? A useless war in Iraq that served no purpose but to attempt to get more oil, and tax cuts for the rich. That's what happened to the surplus.

Case in point. If you HAVE a lot of money, you DON'T NEED a tax cut. If you don't make a lot of money, then that person can't pay enough taxes to make a different. Take a look at the coke-brothers. Their tax breaks from last year's report managed to save them more then $8 billion each. And what did the child-tax credit save me? About $2,000 dollars. Wow! Let me just run to the bank and invest my whole $2,000 dollars.

It's not rocket science gentlemen. It's all about the man, and mathematically, those who make more than $250,000 thousand annually do NOT NEED tax breaks. But what's so awesome about Obama's plan is that it's not targeting this income group. It's only targeting the top 2% percent who earn more than a million dollars annually. And they're only being asked to pay less then .50% percent of their total annual income. This comes to about $500,000 thousand dollars. But if you're a billionaire, that's chump change to my 5 bucks.

I don't understand why you both are in the dark in this. Or is it just about the ideals of the Republican rich. "It's my money so don't tell me how to spend it"! Well how did you get "your money"? Through greed and corruption. From hidden fees, high interest rate loans, low wages, extorting profits via hedge funds (especially in oil), they deserve to be penalized. Why reward the rich when all they do is punish the poor?

You can't squeeze water from a rock gentlemen. But you can sure get a river from a blocked up lake. And right now, the lake of the rich is sitting on Trillions of extorted money that needs to flow back down.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

No, I'm against the minority misrepresenting themselves as the majority for the purpose of overthrowing our constitutional republic. I'm on the side of our capitalist system - even with all its faults - as opposed to that list of socialist countries I linked to (you didn't answer which one you think we should copy). Apparently you don't object to "world revolution." The 1% and all other taxpayers use the rule of law (the convoluted tax code) to calculate their tax liability. Extort money from the economy? You think they take money from the economy and bury it in mason jars on their estates? If so, they never would have gotten rich. They invest providing capitol to companies to invent and produce goods, or start their own companies. They buy mansions, expensive cars, airplanes, etc. that workers had to produce, and which require employees to maintain. They establish philanthropic organizations, donate to hospitals and universities. I'm sure you can find exceptions, but as a group, they are not the evil hoarders you and the protestors make them out to be.

My good friend, I've already proven to you that we are not a true Capitalist system. That's just GOP talk. We are a socialist country because we rely on government to steer us in the right direction. When the rich request tax breaks, or tax incentives to behave in a certain way, then that's not capitalism; that's a clear case of socialism.

I'll respond to the rest later.

Joe

[Tomret]

My good friend, I've already proven to you that we are not a true Capitalist system. That's just GOP talk. We are a socialist country because we rely on government to steer us in the right direction. When the rich request tax breaks, or tax incentives to behave in a certain way, then that's not capitalism; that's a clear case of socialism.

I'll respond to the rest later.

Joe

Well Joe, I hope your future response is better than this one since you addressed nothing I wrote in that first paragraph. You don't seem to appreciate the difference between the two systems.

Capitalism:
An economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

Socialism:
1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

See contrast here (http://www.fundamentalfinance.com/blogs/socialism-vs-capitalism.php) and here (http://www.ashbrook.org/publicat/onprin/v1n3/thompson.html) especially this excerpt:


The intellectuals’ mantra runs something like this: In theory socialism is the morally superior social system despite its dismal record of failure in the real world. Capitalism, by contrast, is a morally bankrupt system despite the extraordinary prosperity it has created. In other words, capitalism at best, can only be defended on pragmatic grounds. We tolerate it because it works.

Under socialism a ruling class of intellectuals, bureaucrats and social planners decide what people want or what is good for society and then use the coercive power of the State to regulate, tax, and redistribute the wealth of those who work for a living. In other words, socialism is a form of legalized theft.

And, if in your mind we are socialist, considering all your complaints about this socialist system, why do you keep pressing for more of the same?

[Brother Les]

We love our socialist military protecting crops for our (so-called) enemy.:rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUATfLDiwVA

http://stevenjohnhibbs.wordpress.com/2010/05/01/fox-news-rationalizes-excuse-for-cia-afghani-opium-cultivation/

[TheForgiven]

We love our socialist military protecting crops for our (so-called) enemy.:rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUATfLDiwVA

http://stevenjohnhibbs.wordpress.com/2010/05/01/fox-news-rationalizes-excuse-for-cia-afghani-opium-cultivation/

The first problem is Fox News isn't a reliable new media source. They are very biased in their reports and often exaggerate on their topics. For instance, Fox News reports that the 99% percent are scum, drug addicts, booze drinking alcoholics, etc. But that's less than .5% percent of any large group; even the Tea Party. The majority of the 99% percent consists of career citizens who lost their jobs to greedy corrupt CEO's who's jobs are on the line if they don't get the profit margins up...and up...and up. I spoke to a friend of mine who's associate works with Sun Trust, and that's what he was told.

Now about the Opium, keep in mind that the military does not profit in anyway for this protection, despite some of our conspiracy theorists who perhaps watch a little too much television. :lol: Opium is required for Pharmaceutical companies to make our highly used surgical drugs and prescription pain medications. But the recent loss of opium availability may have caused the drug companies to research in synthetic pain medications. One such synthetic drug is call Ultram, or Tramadol. This drug does very little for killing pain, but it produces an opiate-like high that is much more addictive than traditional prescription pain medications. What's worse is that it causes severe heart attack and death if used for an extended period of time. Research conducted in Australia quickly learned that out of 1000 patients over the age of 50 who were prescribed this medication, almost 25 percent of them had heart-attack symptoms. They've issued a warning to American's not to take this drug. Thus until then, due to tight restrictions with the production of opium, the U.S. must rely on foreign growth, production, and sells. Thailand is one of the highest opium production nations in the world, with Afghanistan and India. Without their support, surgery would end up back in the civil war days when soldiers had to consume vast amounts of whiskey before having their limbs amputated. Needless to say, that must have been a horrible nightmare.

So despite the concerns of a few about opium, I'm more open minded, and I certainly thank them for their supplies. Without my pain medications, my ankle fusion would have been a nightmare. By the way, I'm still recovering from my staph infection. Thank God for making opium which allows my pain to be controlled. Alexander the Great, when leading his armies out to battle, had their troops carry about 5 opium based plants in their pouches. If a soldier were severely wounded, they would suck on the dark brown pulp from within which gave mild pain relief. In the 1800's, scientists tried to figure out a way to increase the effects of opium. Their research led to the production of morphine; the most highly effect pain medication to day.

Joe

[heb13-13]

The thing that these young people don't realize in all these
"Occupy" protests is that Wall Street and the Government are essentially ONE.

It does not matter what party is in power, they maintain their whorish relationship with each other.

As Regulators Pressed Changes, Corzine Pushed Back, and Won.
(Corzine, Democratic Senator and Governor, former employee of Goldman Sachs)
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/As-Regulators-Pressed-Changes-nytimes-1408097152.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=

Goldman Sachs is nicknamed, "Government Sachs".
The revolving door between Goldman and the Government continues regardless of the the party in control.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20001981-10391695.html

Look at the list of names. Many Dems and Repubs.

Here is a conservative Republican favoring Goldman (and all brokers).
House Oversight Committee: A Unique Spin on the Revolving Door?
http://pogoblog.typepad.com/pogo/2011/08/house-oversight-committee-a-unique-spin-on-the-revolving-door.html

And one person comments:
I was wondering why Rep Issa was not making more noise, getting more attention, and now I know. He was busy working out the details of his distortion of the use of regulatory powers. I am sure that his political campaigns and those who will be willing to sign over there consciences to be considered a 'friend' will not lack donations from those at Goldman and the other firms that he will assist.

So, you see both parties are involved up to their necks in whoredom.

Now, let's take a look at the SEC's revolving door with Wall Street.
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/08/01/revolving-door-at-s-e-c-is-hurdle-to-crisis-cleanup/

Here is a database if you would like to look up anyone that worked for the SEC and where they are now on Wall Street or vice-versa.
http://www.pogo.org/tools-and-data/sec-revolving-door-database/

In the fall of 2008, worldwide derivatives approximated 350 trillion dollars.

Today, the figure is near 700 trillion. The problem was never fixed, let alone addressed. Do you realize the scope of the problem that we are facing?

As long as the Puppet Masters can get all their puppets to fight with each other, the spotlight will not be on them. They always want you to think that one political party is more interested in your welfare than the other. In reality, they both seek to control and manipulate you, but in different ways.

And I would most certainly choose true Capitalism over Socialism, but we don't have that in America. What we have in America is "Crony Capitalism".

Everyone has lost money in their 401Ks but since 2008 the wealth of Congress has increased. How has that happened?
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/11/corrupt_crony_capitalism_been_bery_bery_good_to_me mbers_of_congress.html

"That divide is not in the economics. The real divide is how the rule of law has come to be abused and misused to favor the political establishment and their cronies, while burdening and bullying the rest of us. The effects, of course, are how the balance of power controls the economics. The political establishment is crushing the economy, killing jobs, and decreasing liberty. What's bad for us is obviously good for them. Cursing the problem doesn't seem to be working."

Peace to all,
Rick

P.S. The Great Depression was engineered and what we are going through now is being engineered. Massive wealth shifts being engineered, are nothing new. Both political parties have a common charge: Keep their rich and powerful friends, rich and powerful. This is the way of the world. It has always been this way.

[TheForgiven]

It's time for my two friends here to receive some vital information on why we are jobless, and who's benefiting from it.

CAPITALISM? OR SOCIALISM?

Please watch these two video's from the famous Ed Schultz:

Trickle Down Economics?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGXTTCfn3-o&feature=related

Why the Rich Get Richer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omOojQ3KOvU&feature=related

If you watched these two videos, you will now understand what the 99% percent is all about. Now I challenge any of you so called "Capitalist's" supporters to show me the FACTS, not your opinions, but FACTS to disprove what Ed Schultz has been fighting for (us) for years now. You think it's an accident that the rich still keep getting richer despite a bad economy?

The fact of the matter is, during Bill Clinton, we had a huge government surplus, and a very good economy because the richest citizens of America were paying 39% percent taxes. Well, who screwed all of that up? George Bush!!!! He lowered their tax rates to 35% percent. But with the addition of the loop-holes, they were actually reduced into paying only 25% percent total incomes taxes on what money they actually report; the rest of their money remains offshore.

Now here's a fact that was released last night. As soon as I gather the information, I'll provide you the charts. Those who support Capitalism only do so because of an idealology, even if it means they themselves will never benefit. Well here's the facts my friend. Because of Wall Street and their Political Party support (be it from both sides of the Congressional isle), big corporations, big oil, and big banks have cornered the global market towards their own power. So you and I have only a 17% percent chance of ever digging ourselves out of poverty. Now if you're someone born with money, or perhaps inherited money, then your chances of getting rich are much higher. But if you came from the slums, or even from a middle class family, you only have a 17% percent chance of ever acheiving what Gov. Perry from Texas claims is from years of schooling and hard work. Folks? That is the most ignorant pack of lies any Republican could ever spew out of his mouth. Perry didn't work for his wealth. He got paid off by drug companies. He received government money (tax incentives) for he and his father's farm. And the college he came from? Well, it may as well been an internert college certificate. The point is, Gov Perry is not someone who was born into poverty, and dug himself out of it. He was already wealthy, having mooched from the State Budget, just as he continues to do this day.

FACT! Only a fool would actually think that Capitalism is the best economical system in the world. Sure for the rich. But for Joe the Plummer, forget about it. You only have a 17% percent chance of ever digging yourself out of debt. Or you can choose to own nothing, live in a metal shack with holes on the floor, as my associate seems to always suggest. He thinks when jobs are bad, then suck it up and work at McDonalds. Well, why settle for poverty when the rich who keep getting richer, don't have to retain their power over us? The power of our voices, as is being demonstrated with the 99% percent, is working, and WE WILL WIN!!!

My friends in the Air Force have been brain washed into being anti-union, or anti-socialism. Yet I've had to educate them time and time again, that the very pay-check they get (we get) every month is of a socialist system. We all receive the same pay, health care, and retirement pension based on our rank, and NOT what job we do. So (if they are reading this), they can sit down, and drink a nice healthy glass of "shut up!". LOL!

Joe

[TheForgiven]

"That divide is not in the economics. The real divide is how the rule of law has come to be abused and misused to favor the political establishment and their cronies, while burdening and bullying the rest of us. The effects, of course, are how the balance of power controls the economics. The political establishment is crushing the economy, killing jobs, and decreasing liberty. What's bad for us is obviously good for them. Cursing the problem doesn't seem to be working."

Peace to all,
Rick

P.S. The Great Depression was engineered and what we are going through now is being engineered. Massive wealth shifts being engineered, are nothing new. Both political parties have a common charge: Keep their rich and powerful friends, rich and powerful. This is the way of the world. It has always been this way.

Yep, and guess who's doing the engineering?

Watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-A09a_gHJc

From the mouth of the demons themselves. The GOP is making sure that the economy is ruined, and that the unemployment rate keeps going up and up, so they can blame it on Oabama. Do you think it's an accident that they voted "NO" yesterday to the Presidents awesome Job's bill plan? A plan that would only cost .2% percent of the population (Billionaires)?

I know that some within the Democratic party side with big corporations. But ALL of the Republicans, plus 2 conservative Democrats, voted "NO" to the Presidents Jobs Bill, because they want to protect .2% percent of our population from having to pay slightly higher taxes for those earning $1.00 dollar more than a million annually. And their cost would only be about .39 cents on every dollar over a million earned. Gee! I wouldn't want them to starve to death! What a bunch of panzies!! Only idiots vote for knuckle heads like this.

Joe

[Brother Les]

Joe, I watched some of your 'Mr.Ed' show last night and he was wining that the Repubs killed Scarry Reids 'jobs' 'bill' to give payoffs to union construction companies...... The horses ass... er 'Mr.ed' said that this would be 'paid' (ripped) off by only .08% of the 'rich of the rich'..... that 99.02% would not have to pay (held up) anything.


this 'bill' was not a 'bill' but several hacked up (puked up) paragraphs of obamanations ripoff plan, cut to bite size choke and puke bites.

The Senate does not originate Any Bills....... someone needs to wake up alzeimer prone scarry reid to this fact and stop the farce of trying to act like the leader of the House of Representatives.

The House of Representatives have sent and are collecting dust, 15 different Bills for different jobs programs. What are not in these bills, are shaking down any tax payers with tax increases. It is legislation to reduce some of the hoops and brick walls that are thrown in front of people that want to start business and create jobs.

The House AND Senate passed a Pay-Go Bill over a year ago. This means find a way to Pay for bills Before they are passed. How is the Senate getting around this pay-Go provision? They are acting as a True Democracy and using the vote to where a Majority will over power and tell a minority to give what they have to the majority. This is gangster politics of Red (star) and polocksy

We are not a Democracy...... We are a Democratic Republic.

Joe seems to have forgotten that by being in the Socialism military too long or did he ever know that?

When the majority Brown shirts can dictate to the minority...... it will only be a short time when this majority comes After YOU and take everything you have. You say that this will never happen, you only have to look at the Germany of the 1930s to see that it has and with the Socialist demorats in charge it will again.



But as Joe is also ignoring or so shallow in economics to know..... All currecies are on the verge of collapse. 'the rich' and 'the poor' will only be at the mercy of the barrel of a gun. The Repubs are trying to slow this collapse in the U.S. by slowing the debt rate INCREASE. It is joes Demorats that are trying to push the debt higher and faster to stuff their pockets with goods that they can buy before the collapse comes sooner.

[heb13-13]

Joe seems to have forgotten that by being in the Socialism military too long or did he ever know that?

When the majority Brown shirts can dictate to the minority...... it will only be a short time when this majority comes After YOU and take everything you have. You say that this will never happen, you only have to look at the Germany of the 1930s to see that it has and with the Socialist demorats in charge it will again.

But as Joe is also ignoring or so shallow in economics to know..... All currecies are on the verge of collapse. 'the rich' and 'the poor' will only be at the mercy of the barrel of a gun. The Repubs are trying to slow this collapse in the U.S. by slowing the debt rate INCREASE. It is joes Demorats that are trying to push the debt higher and faster to stuff their pockets with goods that they can buy before the collapse comes sooner.

Yeah, I'm sure Joe ignored my links on Crony Capitalism.

Joe, did you look at those links? Equal number if not more Crony Capitalist Democrats than Crony Capitalist Repubs, but who's counting?

[TheForgiven]

Joe, I watched some of your 'Mr.Ed' show last night and he was wining that the Repubs killed Scary Reids 'jobs' 'bill' to give payoffs to union construction companies...... The horses ass... er 'Mr.ed' said that this would be 'paid' (ripped) off by only .08% of the 'rich of the rich'..... that 99.02% would not have to pay (held up) anything.


this 'bill' was not a 'bill' but several hacked up (puked up) paragraphs of abominations ripoff plan, cut to bite size choke and puke bites.

The Senate does not originate Any Bills....... someone needs to wake up alzeimer prone scarry reid to this fact and stop the farce of trying to act like the leader of the House of Representatives.

The House of Representatives have sent and are collecting dust, 15 different Bills for different jobs programs. What are not in these bills, are shaking down any tax payers with tax increases. It is legislation to reduce some of the hoops and brick walls that are thrown in front of people that want to start business and create jobs.

The House AND Senate passed a Pay-Go Bill over a year ago. This means find a way to Pay for bills Before they are passed. How is the Senate getting around this pay-Go provision? They are acting as a True Democracy and using the vote to where a Majority will over power and tell a minority to give what they have to the majority. This is gangster politics of Red (star) and polocksy

We are not a Democracy...... We are a Democratic Republic.

Joe seems to have forgotten that by being in the Socialism military too long or did he ever know that?

When the majority Brown shirts can dictate to the minority...... it will only be a short time when this majority comes After YOU and take everything you have. You say that this will never happen, you only have to look at the Germany of the 1930s to see that it has and with the Socialist Democrats in charge it will again.



But as Joe is also ignoring or so shallow in economics to know..... All currencies are on the verge of collapse. 'the rich' and 'the poor' will only be at the mercy of the barrel of a gun. The Repubs are trying to slow this collapse in the U.S. by slowing the debt rate INCREASE. It is joes Demorats that are trying to push the debt higher and faster to stuff their pockets with goods that they can buy before the collapse comes sooner.

Nice try LES but you provided nothing factual. Your inputs were nothing more than bias against the military, with a bunch of hot air. :lol:

It's very condescending of you to make absurd statements that the majority are after the minority. Yet you seem to forget that the minority didn't "EARN" their money from the majority; they extorted it, through hidden fees, low wages of their employee's, out-sourcing jobs for slave wages, tax evasion, tax benefits (by the billions), and market manipulation to drive up prices. I told you once before that the only way to get the extorted profits they've managed to gain for the past 8 years is by taxing them sense they are unwilling to pay higher wages; it's not like that can't afford it because they're sitting on 7 trillion dollars of extorted profits. Taxing them is the only way to get that money back into the economy.

The debit ceiling is going up because the ones who have been evading taxes aren't paying their fair share. Bill Clinton didn't have a problem with the debt ceiling, and even in the 90's, corporations did just fine. But when Bush took office, their pofits began to sky rocket, while the middle class either stayed the same, or declined. The only down-turn they faced was after the World Trade Center attacks, but that lasted for about 2 years, and then their profits started to sky-rocket again. Their profits have risen to a level that's never been acheived in American or World history, despite a bad economy. NOW HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT? And if the wage earners were actually earning more wages, seeing that they are directly responsible for the success of a company (such as Whirlpool), then the increase of wages would mean more tax revenue for the government. Be that as it may, the minority refuse to pay their fair share, and are instead pushing the cost of government unto the middle class; the ones who barely have enough as it is.

I'll make it easy for you LES. 60% percent of the nations wealth rests on the top 1% percent. This is NOT money that they've earned; this was money they've gained over the past 30 years, which spiked even higher when George Bush took office. Now either you accept the reasons why and how they obtained this money, or your opinions aren't worth squat! If the top 1% percent would stop trying to pass legislation to extort money from the economy with their highest machine called "Wall Street", and if they would stop trying to put pressure on CEO's and Executive to obtain an annual increase of wealth, and instead allow companies to pay higher wages to its employee's, THEN the economy would turn around. The economy is based solely on the "spenders", but the "spenders" don't have enough money to spend because the cost of living is too high, thanks to the Corporations and CEO's. Take Big Oil for instance. They used middle eastern turmoil as an excuse to cut supply and drive up costs. This is nothing more than market manipulation to make a higher profit, while passing the additional cost of gasoline unto the consumer. This killed the economy, and the disposable income of the middle class kept getting weaker. We also had the huge housing bubble with bloated values on paper, with Wall Street and big banks selling these bloated values to foreign investors such as China. Well in order for banks such as Bank of America to make a profit, along with China, they had to raise interest rates. So you have two major financial entities trying to make profit off of one sale; a single home, for instance. And who ends up paying for this? THE CONSUMER! President Obama, in 2008, passed legislation to put an end to this kind of consumer scamming. He stopped the non-sense with high interest rates on bloated home values, and the credit card scams where a persons interest rate could be raised without justification. So the Banks, like BoA, decided to try another way; debit card fees, and that too has failed, thanks to the power of the majority; the ones you seem to hate.

The point is quite simple. The top 1% percent have not obtained their wealth through hard work or labor. They've relied on crooked Politicians and other tactics to EXTORT, PLUNDER, AND STEAL money from the public. Perhaps you're one of those thieves LES.

And for the last time, I'd ask that you stop insulting the men and women who serve in the armed forces. I think you never joined the service because, quite frankly, you're a wimp! :lol: Soldiers died for your freedom LES, and if you can't appreciate that, then you might as well leave this country because you sir, do not deserve the freedoms that others have paid the price for. If you're rich, and you've EARNED your money from hard work, then great. Pay your fair share of taxes and support our government programs of which we need. We need firemen, policemen, teachers, service men/women, guardsmen, department of transporation and motorvehicle, etc. Without those very important services, then our society could not afford school, drive a car, drive on anything, fight fires, fight terrorism, fight wars, etc. etc. But if you're poor like me, then don't be dooped or fooled by the lies of the Republicans. Now you have a right to dislike Ed Schultz. But without factual reasons to disprove his report, then as I've stated, you are nothing more than hot air. And judging by the way you bash the military, or the Democrats, and instead side with the very ones who causd us to go to war in the first place (Republicans), then you sir deserve your condemnation.

Have a nice day LES.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

Yeah, I'm sure Joe ignored my links on Crony Capitalism.

Joe, did you look at those links? Equal number if not more Crony Capitalist Democrats than Crony Capitalist Repubs, but who's counting?


No my friend. I know that Democrats are just as greedy as the Republicans. But we have a President who's trying to fight for us. Furthermore, the 99% percent movement, if you two have been paying attention, are not taking Political sides; they are blaming both sides. I thought I was clear on that. :lol:

I'm displeased with both parties of our government. BUT the ones who are at least showing their assistance to the ones who need it, as this very moment, are the Democrats. The GOP has done nothing, for 8 years, to help us with the economy. Oh they passed a few bills acknowledging "In God We Trust", and "Abortion". But that was just a waste of time! We've got more issues, such as the unemployment rate.

I understand if you two hate our government; I'm displeased with it too. I think we need to clean-house, and elect totally new representative who might not be bought out by special interest groups. But until that happens, I'm voting for the one who will benefit American; NOT Corporations, who may be American citizens, but certainly not deserving of that stature or status; not when they're willing to let millions of children go hungry.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

A video of Truth! We are a Socilist Nation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngK15zLp7kk&feature=pyv

This video says it all.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

Elizabeth Warren, God Bless her, was heckled by a Tea Party panzie!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peG6Yjb60GM

I love her, and so does the 99%.

Joe

[Tomret]

It's time for my two friends here to receive some vital information on why we are jobless, and who's benefiting from it.

CAPITALISM? OR SOCIALISM?

Please watch these two video's from the famous Ed Schultz:

Trickle Down Economics?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGXTTCfn3-o&feature=related

Why the Rich Get Richer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omOojQ3KOvU&feature=related

If you watched these two videos, you will now understand what the 99% percent is all about. Now I challenge any of you so called "Capitalist's" supporters to show me the FACTS, not your opinions, but FACTS to disprove what Ed Schultz has been fighting for (us) for years now. You think it's an accident that the rich still keep getting richer despite a bad economy?

The fact of the matter is, during Bill Clinton, we had a huge government surplus, and a very good economy because the richest citizens of America were paying 39% percent taxes. Well, who screwed all of that up? George Bush!!!! He lowered their tax rates to 35% percent. But with the addition of the loop-holes, they were actually reduced into paying only 25% percent total incomes taxes on what money they actually report; the rest of their money remains offshore.

Now here's a fact that was released last night. As soon as I gather the information, I'll provide you the charts. Those who support Capitalism only do so because of an idealology, even if it means they themselves will never benefit. Well here's the facts my friend. Because of Wall Street and their Political Party support (be it from both sides of the Congressional isle), big corporations, big oil, and big banks have cornered the global market towards their own power. So you and I have only a 17% percent chance of ever digging ourselves out of poverty. Now if you're someone born with money, or perhaps inherited money, then your chances of getting rich are much higher. But if you came from the slums, or even from a middle class family, you only have a 17% percent chance of ever acheiving what Gov. Perry from Texas claims is from years of schooling and hard work. Folks? That is the most ignorant pack of lies any Republican could ever spew out of his mouth. Perry didn't work for his wealth. He got paid off by drug companies. He received government money (tax incentives) for he and his father's farm. And the college he came from? Well, it may as well been an internert college certificate. The point is, Gov Perry is not someone who was born into poverty, and dug himself out of it. He was already wealthy, having mooched from the State Budget, just as he continues to do this day.

FACT! Only a fool would actually think that Capitalism is the best economical system in the world. Sure for the rich. But for Joe the Plummer, forget about it. You only have a 17% percent chance of ever digging yourself out of debt. Or you can choose to own nothing, live in a metal shack with holes on the floor, as my associate seems to always suggest. He thinks when jobs are bad, then suck it up and work at McDonalds. Well, why settle for poverty when the rich who keep getting richer, don't have to retain their power over us? The power of our voices, as is being demonstrated with the 99% percent, is working, and WE WILL WIN!!!

My friends in the Air Force have been brain washed into being anti-union, or anti-socialism. Yet I've had to educate them time and time again, that the very pay-check they get (we get) every month is of a socialist system. We all receive the same pay, health care, and retirement pension based on our rank, and NOT what job we do. So (if they are reading this), they can sit down, and drink a nice healthy glass of "shut up!". LOL!

Joe

People can get rich by inheritance, inventions, luck (lottery, etc.), scams (Madoff, Camping), hard work, or smart investments to name a few. Regarding that last one, it stands to reason those with the most capitol to invest will profit the most, thus the rich get richer and the gap widens depending on economic growth.

According to this (http://news.investors.com/Article/590383/201111030805/Income-Inequality-Rose-Under-Clinton-Obama.htm) the rich actually got poorer under President Bush, and the income gap has been climbing under Obama. What's more, the biggest increase in income inequality over the past three decades took place when Democrat Bill Clinton was in the White House. This is proven by the chart in the 1st Schultz video. Despite the tax rate the economy experienced phenomenal growth during that period due to the dot com boom. Then that bubble burst, 9/11 happened and the market tanked for 3 years. Then Bush tax cuts encouraged investors and the market rallied for 4+ years due to real growth. Following that the housing bubble burst that resulted from greedy bankers making loans to people that wouldn't be able to pay them back, right? WRONG! It was caused by do-gooder liberals passing the 1992 Federal Housing Enterprises Financial Safety and Soundness Act lowering mortgage-lending standards so the oppressed could achieve the dream of home ownership. ACORN was a key player in getting that passed as well as demonstrating and pressuring banks to make those loans. It took a while for the bubble to really get inflated, but finally, from the bankers view what was the risk since Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac would acquire more than $6 trillion of single-family loans over the next 16 years (source (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703298004574459763052141456.html)) .

See those responsible here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F0afGSpo7Q) and here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fKpBPRKbvQ&feature=related).

See Barney Frank's lie blaming Bush in 2010 proven to be a lie by his lie in 2005 here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UZ9l_AxKjA&feature=related) .

This (http://www.opednews.com/populum/print_friendly.php?p=The-Real-Cause-of-the-Curr-by-Joe-Reeser-080926-83.html) is a concise written explanation of the situation.

I doubt Joe the plumber would agree with Joe the socialist. :)

[Tomret]

A video of Truth! We are a Socilist Nation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngK15zLp7kk&feature=pyv

This video says it all.

Joe

I asked you about this in post #38 Joe. Can you not see the contradiction in your statements?

[TheForgiven]

I asked you about this in post #38 Joe. Can you not see the contradiction in your statements?

How am I contradicting my statements when the facts clearly show that our country is a Socialist country, with a mixture of Capitalism? The Middle Class workers are paid based on their employers. The Employers pay money based on how much "capital" they attain. One measure of obtaining "more capital" is by accepting tax money (or discounts) from the Federal Government if they "behave" a certain way. For instance, a farmer growing corn will be given special "tax incentives" to reduce the amount of corn they grow to "control" stock levels. Too much corn drives down prices, while too little corn causes stock prices to go up. So the farmers are in essence paid by the government NOT to grow excessive corn; it's like being paid NOT to work. This is not capitalism; this is social engineering; hence the term, socialism.

Big Oil Companies receive tax VERY EXPSENSIVE tax incentives to drill for more oil. They are given more than $12,000,000,000 billion dollars in tax breaks over an 8 to 10 year period IF they continue to drill for more oil. Well as much profit as they are already receiving, why is the the GOP protecting tax-hikes for an agency that's already given more tax breaks that they don't need? The answer is so that they can increase their capital off the backs of the tax payers and public employee's.

A great deal of badly needed Government revenue is sitting with 6 major Financial institutions; roughly 6 to 8 Trillion dollars in revenue, not counting money hidden in offshore accounts. A great deal of that wealth came from stimulus money (tax money) and also from receiving tax breaks, notwithstanding the high interest rates they gain, dividends, hidden fees, paying workers low wages, etc. When you deduct the loop-holes rich corporations receive, in conjunction with the current George Bush tax cuts, they only pay about 21% to 24% percent total Federal Income tax, while the middle class pays 28% percent total Federal Pay-Role taxes on a monthly basis; the rich only pay at the end of the year. Of course by the years end, the middle class who qualify will receive a $1,500 dollar child-tax credit (or earned income credit) for every qualifying child they support, are given a small tax break. This usually equates to about $2,000 to $3,000 dollars depending on how many children they have. This is another form of Socialsim. But this is nothing compared to the money saved by those earning more than a million dollars a year; they only pay 25% percent minus deductions, AND hidden profits in offshore accounts.

Now the point is simple. What is Socialism?

Any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

This is how Webster's Dictionary defines Socialism. So it's an economic and political theory which attempts to control PRODUCTION and DISTRIBUTION of goods. Remember the farmers and how they are paid to keep crops at the level recommend by the government and by Wall Street? Isn't the entire purpose of this kind of control is to limit productivity to keep prices high, thereby enabling the "share holders" playing with Wall Street to obtain higher dividends? Of course it is! And we see this happening even with oil.

Big Oil tries to drive down supplies in order to keep prices up. Thus, as you can see, this is not capitalism by definition. This is socialism used by both the upper and middle class to obtain the highest possible profit. The middle class receives their money from the child-tax credit, while the upper class receives their money to "behave" a certain why.

There are many more examples I can give. But this should suffice it to prove that I have not contradicted my statement. The United States is a Socialist system of behavior that PRIMARILY benefits the wealthy, and not the middle class.

Are we a Capitalist society? Anyone who thinks this are confused and are not accepting the truth.

Joe

[Tomret]

Elizabeth Warren, God Bless her, was heckled by a Tea Party panzie!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peG6Yjb60GM

I love her, and so does the 99%.

Joe

How do you know that was a Tea Party guy? The video was a bit grainy and the sound not so great, but I couldn't make out him identifying himself as such.

Why do you and the so called 99% tend to love the rich? It's really hard to pin down Warren's net worth, but this (http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2011/09/24/liz-warren-pig-ignorant-about-her-own-salary/) suggests she is pretty well off. Her credentials: she served as chair of the Congressional Oversight Panel created to oversee the Troubled Assets Relief Program (So that's who was in charge of bailing out the banks!). From February to July 2011 she served as Assistant to the President and Special Advisor to the Secretary of the Treasury (ah yes, Tim Geithner! She must not have advised him enough about being evasive on his tax return, he got caught!) for the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau under U.S. President Barack Obama.

Michael Moore (net worth $50 million) is a hero of the movement. See him deny he's part of the 1% here (http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/directors/michael-moore-net-worth/#). Yeah right, and he's not fat either.

And there's the 'honorable' Ed Schultz, who on his Radio Talk Show, called Laura Ingraham "a Slut". He also edited a clip by Gov. Perry so he could insert his opinion that, 'That black cloud Perry is talking about is President Barack Obama.' (source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Schultz#Controversial_Statements)) Ed's net worth is a paltry $11.5 million.

Here (http://www.celebritynetworth.com/articles/entertainment-articles/10-richest-celebrities-supporting-occupy-wall-street/) are the top 10 celebs supporting OWS. Wow! They might make the top point one (.1) percent.

So, OWS and these fat cat supporters just want people making fat cat million dollar salaries to pay more taxes, right? Not exactly. As this chart (http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/20/news/economy/occupy_wall_street_income/index.htm) shows, one doesn't have to make nearly that much to be in the 1%. Included in the 1% are small business owners. Great idea, tax the source of the majority of jobs in America, which is what Obama originally wanted to do with his $250,000 threshold.

[Tomret]

How am I contradicting my statements when the facts clearly show that our country is a Socialist country, with a mixture of Capitalism? The Middle Class workers are paid based on their employers. The Employers pay money based on how much "capital" they attain. One measure of obtaining "more capital" is by accepting tax money (or discounts) from the Federal Government if they "behave" a certain way. For instance, a farmer growing corn will be given special "tax incentives" to reduce the amount of corn they grow to "control" stock levels. Too much corn drives down prices, while too little corn causes stock prices to go up. So the farmers are in essence paid by the government NOT to grow excessive corn; it's like being paid NOT to work. This is not capitalism; this is social engineering; hence the term, socialism.

Big Oil Companies receive tax VERY EXPSENSIVE tax incentives to drill for more oil. They are given more than $12,000,000,000 billion dollars in tax breaks over an 8 to 10 year period IF they continue to drill for more oil. Well as much profit as they are already receiving, why is the the GOP protecting tax-hikes for an agency that's already given more tax breaks that they don't need? The answer is so that they can increase their capital off the backs of the tax payers and public employee's.

A great deal of badly needed Government revenue is sitting with 6 major Financial institutions; roughly 6 to 8 Trillion dollars in revenue, not counting money hidden in offshore accounts. A great deal of that wealth came from stimulus money (tax money) and also from receiving tax breaks, notwithstanding the high interest rates they gain, dividends, hidden fees, paying workers low wages, etc. When you deduct the loop-holes rich corporations receive, in conjunction with the current George Bush tax cuts, they only pay about 21% to 24% percent total Federal Income tax, while the middle class pays 28% percent total Federal Pay-Role taxes on a monthly basis; the rich only pay at the end of the year. Of course by the years end, the middle class who qualify will receive a $1,500 dollar child-tax credit (or earned income credit) for every qualifying child they support, are given a small tax break. This usually equates to about $2,000 to $3,000 dollars depending on how many children they have. This is another form of Socialsim. But this is nothing compared to the money saved by those earning more than a million dollars a year; they only pay 25% percent minus deductions, AND hidden profits in offshore accounts.

Now the point is simple. What is Socialism?

Any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

This is how Webster's Dictionary defines Socialism. So it's an economic and political theory which attempts to control PRODUCTION and DISTRIBUTION of goods. Remember the farmers and how they are paid to keep crops at the level recommend by the government and by Wall Street? Isn't the entire purpose of this kind of control is to limit productivity to keep prices high, thereby enabling the "share holders" playing with Wall Street to obtain higher dividends? Of course it is! And we see this happening even with oil.

Big Oil tries to drive down supplies in order to keep prices up. Thus, as you can see, this is not capitalism by definition. This is socialism used by both the upper and middle class to obtain the highest possible profit. The middle class receives their money from the child-tax credit, while the upper class receives their money to "behave" a certain why.

There are many more examples I can give. But this should suffice it to prove that I have not contradicted my statement. The United States is a Socialist system of behavior that PRIMARILY benefits the wealthy, and not the middle class.

Are we a Capitalist society? Anyone who thinks this are confused and are not accepting the truth.

Joe

In your post 29 you said, "As for Socialism, I've already proven to you that WE ARE a Socialist country. What do you call tax breaks for Big Oil despite record profits? Socialism. What do you call farmers being paid money by the government not to grow crops in excess? Socialism. What do you call wealthy Wall Street tycoons begging for no-taxes on their capital gains or dividends? Socialism." In post 34 I wrote, "You've not proven that to me, but if that list of things you hate are socialism, why are you pro socialist?" No answer. I also stated in that post that I oppose social engineering tactics.

Replying to my post 34, in your post 37 you wrote:


"My good friend, I've already proven to you that we are not a true Capitalist system. That's just GOP talk. We are a socialist country because we rely on government to steer us in the right direction. When the rich request tax breaks, or tax incentives to behave in a certain way, then that's not capitalism; that's a clear case of socialism.

I'll respond to the rest later."

To which I replied in post 38, "And, if in your mind we are socialist, considering all your complaints about this socialist system, why do you keep pressing for more of the same?" Still no answer. All those things you call unfair and favoring the rich you call socialism. Then you're adamant that Socialism would be more fair than Capitalism. Think about it, Joe. You're in effect arguing with yourself! And still no "respond to the rest later." For the most part your 'responses' are just repeating the same unsubstantiated mantra as above.

You only gave part of the definition for socialism. From merriam-webster.com:


any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

a system of society or group living in which there is no private property

a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

Some dangerous possibilities there considering the radical friends and advisors Obama has surrounded himself with. And yes, we are so far still a capitalist nation according to the definition of capitalism, but progressive liberals are hell bent on changing that. If they succeed don't hold your breath waiting your cut. :winking0071:

[heb13-13]

"we are the 53%"

Interesting site about the 53% (who pay for the 47%).

http://the53.tumblr.com/

Rick

[TheForgiven]

To which I replied in post 38, "And, if in your mind we are socialist, considering all your complaints about this socialist system, why do you keep pressing for more of the same?" Still no answer. All those things you call unfair and favoring the rich you call socialism. Then you're adamant that Socialism would be more fair than Capitalism. Think about it, Joe. You're in effect arguing with yourself! And still no "respond to the rest later." For the most part your 'responses' are just repeating the same unsubstantiated mantra as above.

We are not pressing for more of the same. We're begging the President to end the George Bush tax cuts for the top 1% percent. Ever since George Bush ended the Clinton Taxes, our economy started to decline. During the George Bush tax cuts, the rich kept getting richer, and more jobs were being lost. Now I don't like the idea of having to charge them higher taxes, just as we did during the Clinton years, of which they also did just fine then, BUT unless they hire more people, and pay higher wages, the ONLY way to get that money back into the economy is by taxing them. If we don't, then they are going to continue to sit on money they truly haven't earned, and thus your statement, "more of the same". We need that money very badly, and they are just sitting on it, blaming the middle class of not spending any money. I laugh when they say, "consumer confidence is at an all time low". That's BS! Confidense is not low; MONEY is low! These guys are such an idiot!

What's not working is the supposed "Job Creators" are not creating jobs with the huge tax breaks they've been given. Consider Big Oil, who received billions of dollars in tax breaks for the past several years, coupled with the fact that they manipulated the market with bogus gas price gouging, and yet despite their record profits, they didn't hire more people; they actually laid about 12% percent of its employee's off.

So how does tax breaks for the rich create jobs? It doesn't; not when greed gets in the way. Their "Do more with less" policy kills the economy. And the economy is dead solely because of them. It's not the workers fault that the economy is bad. It's not the fault of the middle class that jobs are vanishing overseas. Sure they can blame it on unions. But people have got to understand that unions are there to protect the worker. If we didn't have unions, we'd be back in the pre-1920's when young kids had to work from sunrise, to sunset with pennies an hour, with no food, and often times in the most horrible conditions.

It's a solid fact that most companies exploit labor for the highest profits. When Employers begin to treat their employee's like human beings, instead of a number or a statistic, you'd see the economy turn around. Here's a better way to say it. HAVE A HEART! But you can't expect Mofia style corporations to have a heart, when their heart is stuck on money.

Come on man, I can't believe you're falling for the lies of the Capitalistic world. Don't let it fool you. Jesus doesn't support capitalism. Why else do you think he told the young rich man, "sell all that you have, and give to the poor, and then follow men"? His point wasn't so much selling everything you have. His point is that what the young boy had was his true master; one that the young boy couldn't stop serving. THAT is the problem we've had with big corporations for the longest time.

Oh, and one last thing. I believe you mentioned that small businesses would be affected by the tax hikes. That's less than 3% percent. Remember, the tax hikes would only affect about 300,000 thousand +/- Americans grossing MORE THAN 1 MILLION DOLLARS ANNUALLY. Not Millionaires, but those earning more than a million every single year. Those would have to pay a 7% percent increase in their taxes ON EVERY DOLLAR OVER THEIR FIRST MILLION. This is not that hard for them to pay guys; very easy for them. Don't let an ideal of "it's my money" trick you. Because you have to evaluate how they ever got that money. And trust me, it wasn't all honest business or else the wage earners wouldn't be struggling as they are right now, and for the past 30 years.

The income chart shows a huge gap between the wage earners and the CEO's. Their income went up 280% percent, while the average middle class income increase at only about 17% percent. That's not enough of an increase to keep up with the economy.

In conclusion, the "more of the same" you talk about, is the George Bush tax cuts for the wish. We're asking the President to end those tax cuts, for corporations to pay better wages, stop scamming us with high interest rate loans, bring back jobs to America and forget about NAFTA, and pay your fair share of taxes. On top of that, pay us higher wages that we rightfully deserve, and we'll start buying our own health care, paying for our own pensions, and of course, paying higher taxes. This is a very fair deal. Why would anyone disagree with this? :confused: I don't understand how anyone who is poor could not wish for the greedy rick folks who extorted money for profit, to pay more taxes or at least pay us higher wages. Why is this such a bad thing to ask for?

Joe

[TheForgiven]

Tomret mentioned the wealth of Michael Moore. Guys, I never said that being wealthy was a bad thing. You guys are misunderstanding me. I encourage wealth, and fact, I wish everyone was wealthy. But the reality is, that will never happen, and it's impossible for that to happen. The Rich rely on the poor to do what they (the rich) do not want to do; i.e. cutting grass, washing cars, working in the factory, etc.

The problem I have with the top 1% percent is that they obtained their wealth from tax evasion (big time no no), paying workers low wages, pushing jobs overseas, receiving tax incentives from the government (AT OUR COST) despite record profits, extorting profits from Wall Street who charges us high interest rates for loans provided by their investments, buying up technologies and then preventing anyone from applying those new inventions, and so forth. That's what I have a problem with. We're asking for a level playing field. But the current system makes it nearly impossible to dig yourself out of poverty. When American's have to work more than two jobs to pay their bills, that's a huge problem with our economy. America needs to get back to the 40 hour work week, do away with overtime (balanced by higher wages), and give the workers a chance to enjoy life. What's wrong with that?

Let's take cars for instance. Why have people stopped buying larger vehicles? Because gas prices got too high. Why did gas prices get too high? Because Hedge Fund Managers willfully drove up the prices of oil using skirmishes in the middle east as an excuse to "predict" supplies will be reduced, thereby driving up the cost of oil. This was purposefully done so that the big corporations who bought shares in oil (hedge funds) could profit with high dividends. Who ends up paying for this? The middle class, who got hit VERY hard. This kind of market manipulation makes me sick to my stomach. How could anyone tolerate this kind of behavior, and expect us not to be upset?

If you EARN the profits you make, having ran a fair business without having to resort to price gouging, paying workers crappy wages, etc., then you deserve the profits you make. Michael Moore isn't someone who goes around extorting profits from people. He's a film maker and makes his profit by making movies, doing interviews, etc. Big Oil didn't earn their profits; they gouged society for their own personal gain, using a "need" that we have for their own profit, while at the same time, suppressing new technologies and buying Patton’s for it so that nobody else could invest in newly discovered technologies for the benefit of society; they are trying to suppress their profit making machine and eliminate competition. That's not fair!

A few years ago, a welder invented a new welding machine that runs off of water. It abstracts the Hydrogen from the water, and somehow converts this into energy that can be used to cut steal. This same technology could be used to power motorized vehicles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMovXzVOzc4

GM and Big Oil wanted to buy this technology from him, so they could suppress this technology from society in order to sustain their oil-profits. How is this Capitalism? Since when is it right for a business to suppress innovation because they’re afraid of losing money? That's not a fair and level playing field!

I don't get it.

Joe

[heb13-13]

Joe,

You really should look at this. These guys are not crying, whining or complaining like the Occupiers. I'm not either. I just work hard and don't expect or want BIG GOV to take care of me. And Big Gov does not steer this nation in the right direction. Maybe they should, but they don't.

Look at some of these testimonials and you may see that there is hope for you. You may have to change a few of your mindsets and your attitude. Many people have had to make adjustments in their lives. Life is about making adjustments all the time. Making adjustments in our attitude, thinking and lifestyle. But, above all, we should let nothing steal our peace and joy. I hope you have not lost yours and if you have, I pray that you get it back.

Paul said, with food and raiment be content. He did not even say housing. Just food and raiment!

But godliness with contentment is great gain.

For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 1Tim 6:11-16

These people have great attitudes despite the difficult world they live in.

http://the53.tumblr.com/

All the best,
Rick

[Tomret]

"we are the 53%"

Interesting site about the 53% (who pay for the 47%).

http://the53.tumblr.com/

Rick

EGG-ZACTLY! And the goal of progressive liberals is to reverse those numbers. When they get a majority of voters paying no taxes there will be no limit to taxes imposed on the rest of us. :eek:

[TheForgiven]

EGG-ZACTLY! And the goal of progressive liberals is to reverse those numbers. When they get a majority of voters paying no taxes there will be no limit to taxes imposed on the rest of us. :eek:

His article is nice, but nobody is saying that people shouldn't take responsibility for themselves. If that's what you guys think Democrats are fighting for, then you all are missing the message of what the Democrats and the 99% percent are saying.

I decided to cut out all of the excessive wording I had from this post to keep it short and simple. I apologize for bogging the readers down with too many points.

BIG GOVERNMENT or BIG CORPORATIONS?

That's the question you guys have to deal with. Which is better, or is there a difference? Now you need to think very hard on this, because the answer might astonish you.

The GOP has been preaching, just as they've always preached, the the government is too big. What do they mean by this? Some of you may be thinking that the size of government means too much legislation, too many laws, and too many departments either creating, and/or enforcing those laws. But that's only a small percentage of what the GOP means by "smaller government". Governor Rick Perry stated in one of his speeches, "When I'm elected as President, I will do everything within my power to make the government as inconsequential to you as possible". Simply put, he wants to eliminate corporate taxes, and eliminate government regulations designs to keep society as safe as possible. Perry is an oil man, as is the Bush family. If they had their way, we'd be building more oil refineries and even more nuclear power plants. Now I don't know if any of you have ever been around an oil field. Let me just say that it's horrible! The fumes constantly burning make your stomach sick, and the headaches are almost unbearable. When I was in Kuwait, it was horrible to wake up to the same kerosene smell and smoke every single day. My head constantly hurt, breathing was sometimes difficult, and most of us had stomach aches. Trust me when I saw, you do not want to live around oil refineries; it's horrible and destructive to the environment. Perry would like to see carbon-credits done away with, not that this solves our pollution problems. In fact, all of the GOP would like to totally eliminate all government regulations forcing manufactures to be responsible with the environment. We’ve seen some of their cheating with the last oil spill in the gulf. Regulations were in place, but they were not being followed, because Big Oil (the largest corporation in the world) disregarded safety precautions which cost the lives of thousands of marine wild life, and also severely crippled coastal fishing, shrimping, etc. So as we can see, Big Government is vital to the protection of us; the consumers.

Now here's what's really going on with the GOP. They're complaining about the deficit but you have to remember that George Bush and his administration were high deficit spenders. They engaged us in the war with Iraq, which was costing us billions of dollars, thus contributing to the national debt crisis they are complaining about. Then there was the bail-out money that George Bush gave to Wall Street, and of course President Obama who enabled GM to sustain itself with his distribution of bail-out money.

When the GOP says they want to reduce the size of government, deregulation is one of their proposals. What else? How about cutting safety entitlements for the middle class and the poor; the ones who need the money. They want to cut back on infrastructure, teachers, firemen, military personnel (not equipment and technology), medical (except for themselves), pensions, etc. But is this fair? Well, it would ONLY be fair if they also cut out corporate welfare for the rich. Big Oil is given huge taxes breaks exceeding billions of dollars in a 10 year period. The very wealthy are given tax loop-holes so they can evade paying taxes at the end of the year. So in truth, when they say they want to reduce the size of government, what they really mean is cutting back on middle class public sector jobs, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, continuing the huge tax breaks and incentives for the rich. So they're trying to take away money from those who need it, so that they can give to those who don't need it!

Now how in the world can any of you keep a straight face and say that the GOP is right? You guys have been sucked into the lies of the Republicans, just as I have for 20+ years. Trust me when I saw, that the top 2% percent DID NOT get very wealthy because they went to college, or started at the bottom. They had money to begin with, and in this world, it takes money to make money. Now there are a few success stories of those who may have been born into poverty, and grew wealthy from products popular with society. But this makes up only about 17% percent of all success stories, with the rest involving greedy folks who invest money handed down to them from generation to generation.

So in a nut shell, the GOP wants to take money away from those who need it, fire as many public employees to increase the unemployment rate, so they can make President Obama "a one term President".

I promise you; hear me now. If we get a Republican President in office, you will see the worst times this country has ever faced. They will keep giving huge tax breaks to the rich, cut spending on those who need it, force the middle class into poverty, and the poor into their graves, and allow corporations to continue oppressing wage earners, while their wealth continues to sky-rocket to levels never before achieved. So if you want to vote Republican, and you are poor, don't expect to get any further. And if you are already rich, I'm sure you'll gloat over the freedom to extort even more money from the economy.

In conclusion, the lies of the GOP who say that reducing government helps the economy is nothing more than a hidden truth; reducing government by taking away Republican sector jobs and middle class entitlements, is nothing more than an attempt to give more money to those who don't need it; the richest American's who already own this "big government".

Remember the question? BIG GOVERNMENT OR BIG CORPORATION? The answer is, there's no difference. Our government has been bought by special interest groups and our political leaders have been lobbied out.

Joe

[Tomret]

We are not pressing for more of the same. We're begging the President to end the George Bush tax cuts for the top 1% percent. Ever since George Bush ended the Clinton Taxes, our economy started to decline. During the George Bush tax cuts, the rich kept getting richer, and more jobs were being lost. Now I don't like the idea of having to charge them higher taxes, just as we did during the Clinton years, of which they also did just fine then, BUT unless they hire more people, and pay higher wages, the ONLY way to get that money back into the economy is by taxing them. If we don't, then they are going to continue to sit on money they truly haven't earned, and thus your statement, "more of the same". We need that money very badly, and they are just sitting on it, blaming the middle class of not spending any money. I laugh when they say, "consumer confidence is at an all time low". That's BS! Confidense is not low; MONEY is low! These guys are such an idiot!

What's not working is the supposed "Job Creators" are not creating jobs with the huge tax breaks they've been given. Consider Big Oil, who received billions of dollars in tax breaks for the past several years, coupled with the fact that they manipulated the market with bogus gas price gouging, and yet despite their record profits, they didn't hire more people; they actually laid about 12% percent of its employee's off.

So how does tax breaks for the rich create jobs? It doesn't; not when greed gets in the way. Their "Do more with less" policy kills the economy. And the economy is dead solely because of them. It's not the workers fault that the economy is bad. It's not the fault of the middle class that jobs are vanishing overseas. Sure they can blame it on unions. But people have got to understand that unions are there to protect the worker. If we didn't have unions, we'd be back in the pre-1920's when young kids had to work from sunrise, to sunset with pennies an hour, with no food, and often times in the most horrible conditions.

It's a solid fact that most companies exploit labor for the highest profits. When Employers begin to treat their employee's like human beings, instead of a number or a statistic, you'd see the economy turn around. Here's a better way to say it. HAVE A HEART! But you can't expect Mofia style corporations to have a heart, when their heart is stuck on money.

Come on man, I can't believe you're falling for the lies of the Capitalistic world. Don't let it fool you. Jesus doesn't support capitalism. Why else do you think he told the young rich man, "sell all that you have, and give to the poor, and then follow men"? His point wasn't so much selling everything you have. His point is that what the young boy had was his true master; one that the young boy couldn't stop serving. THAT is the problem we've had with big corporations for the longest time.

Oh, and one last thing. I believe you mentioned that small businesses would be affected by the tax hikes. That's less than 3% percent. Remember, the tax hikes would only affect about 300,000 thousand +/- Americans grossing MORE THAN 1 MILLION DOLLARS ANNUALLY. Not Millionaires, but those earning more than a million every single year. Those would have to pay a 7% percent increase in their taxes ON EVERY DOLLAR OVER THEIR FIRST MILLION. This is not that hard for them to pay guys; very easy for them. Don't let an ideal of "it's my money" trick you. Because you have to evaluate how they ever got that money. And trust me, it wasn't all honest business or else the wage earners wouldn't be struggling as they are right now, and for the past 30 years.

The income chart shows a huge gap between the wage earners and the CEO's. Their income went up 280% percent, while the average middle class income increase at only about 17% percent. That's not enough of an increase to keep up with the economy.

In conclusion, the "more of the same" you talk about, is the George Bush tax cuts for the wish. We're asking the President to end those tax cuts, for corporations to pay better wages, stop scamming us with high interest rate loans, bring back jobs to America and forget about NAFTA, and pay your fair share of taxes. On top of that, pay us higher wages that we rightfully deserve, and we'll start buying our own health care, paying for our own pensions, and of course, paying higher taxes. This is a very fair deal. Why would anyone disagree with this? :confused: I don't understand how anyone who is poor could not wish for the greedy rick folks who extorted money for profit, to pay more taxes or at least pay us higher wages. Why is this such a bad thing to ask for?

Joe

So, still no rational response, just more repetition of the liberals' diatribe. You emphasize the gap in Schultz's chart but will not accept the trend it shows, the downturn in the economy continued UNTIL the Bush tax cuts. Even Obama (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/16/AR2010121606200.html) recognized it would hurt the middle class to let them expire. Of course, he sees no problem with them expiring 2 months AFTER next year's election. :winking0071:

Yes, unions can and have served a useful purpose, I was a member of one the last 21 years I worked. But, they are not immune to corruption. On several occasions we voted on contracts or other issues and the result was voided on some technicality, and we had to vote again until we 'got it right.' They use members dues to support liberal causes and increasingly are more about global change than workers' rights. They are quite willing to intimidate those that don't see things their way. A prime example is former SEIU head (and buddy to Obama) Andy Stern here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzGuVd9E_lA).

Small businesses less than 3%? Where do you come up with this stuff? I've never heard of any economist that disputes small businesses account for the MAJORITY of private sector jobs. This link (http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/20/news/economy/occupy_wall_street_income/index.htm) I gave earlier contradicts your claims. Not "about 300,000," but 1.4 million households that earn 17% of income and pay 37% of all taxes. The income threshold at the time the chart was made was $343,927, the average income of the top one percent was $960,000. Do you even look at any of this stuff? OWS is calling for more taxes on the richest one percent. They don't understand what makes up the one percent. They have been duped by Obama and other liberals seeking to TRANSFORM this nation.

I used "more of the same" in reference to your list of present inequities that you labeled socialist. Again, if in your opinion those inequities are a result of socialist policies, why do you press for more socialist policies?

[Tomret]

I don't get it.

Joe

I can tell. Enlighten yourself here (http://www.creators.com/opinion/john-stossel/wall-street-protesters-half-right.html).

[heb13-13]

Hey Everyone,

I think it is important to mention lest we all fall into the black sludge of this world's ism's that the identification of Christianity with any economic system in the world is misrepresenting the kingdom of God. Even capitalism has blood on its hands and the true church knows this. Christians oppose communism and socialism and every other ism because they have nothing to do with the social fabric of the kingdom of God. We don't opposes other ism's from the standpoint of capitalism, we oppose them from the standpoint of the Kingdom of God.

"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek the one to come" (Heb13:14).

Grace and peace to all,
Rick

[TheForgiven]

So, still no rational response, just more repetition of the liberals' diatribe. You emphasize the gap in Schultz's chart but will not accept the trend it shows, the downturn in the economy continued UNTIL the Bush tax cuts. Even Obama recognized it would hurt the middle class to let them expire. Of course, he sees no problem with them expiring 2 months AFTER next year's election.

Come on my friend. Even a few Republicans admitted that there was a problem with the income gap. What it shows is obvious; the rich kept getting richer since 1970, while the middle class stayed pretty much the same, or slightly increased but not enough to accommodate the higher cost of living. The Bush tax cuts did not contribute to wage increases. In fact, as soon as he cut taxes, Corporate profits spiked very high until September 11th, which then briefly declined, and then all of a sudden spiked to record levels never before achieved. Now why hasn't wages spiked? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out.

And as for calling me a liberal, be careful, because I'm mighty proud of it now. Remember, I used to absorb all of the Republican BS for 20+ years. But the truth is in the money; all you have to do is follow the money, and you'd easily see where the money is going, up....up....up....up AND AWAY!!! Right to the top 2% percent.

Republicans are stuck on an 18th century economical theory. They believe in low production, high cost. Cutting production or supplies increased cost. Higher costs equates to more profits. Cost high enough will also produce higher dividends on those taking out loans to buy lesser stocks. Take a good look at how they manipulated the oil market, and the food industry to minimized their profits.

When cost is too high, and wages are low, disposable income is reduced, thereby causing the economy to become stagnate. The Republicans don't care about that. As long as they're getting their money from Wall Street, they could care less if the wage earners were making any money; that's just not their concerned. That's why they like to say, "personal responsibility". Their goal is to make money AT ALL COSTS. You do understand what this means right, "All COSTS"? It means to exploit....exploit...exploit. What ever you can do to get the bottom line up, interest rates high, then do it NO MATTER WHAT.


Yes, unions can and have served a useful purpose, I was a member of one the last 21 years I worked. But, they are not immune to corruption. On several occasions we voted on contracts or other issues and the result was voided on some technicality, and we had to vote again until we 'got it right.' They use members dues to support liberal causes and increasingly are more about global change than workers' rights. They are quite willing to intimidate those that don't see things their way. A prime example is former SEIU head (and buddy to Obama) Andy Stern here.

My cousin is part of a Union and they went on strike two months ago. Their managers wanted to cut their pay from $17 dollars an hour to $13 dollars an hour. THEN they wanted to lay-off a few Full-Timers in exchange for Part-Timers, to save money. They also wanted to end their medical insurance, as well as pensions; not that their pensions pay worth a damn anyways. :lol:

I totally hear you when it comes to Unions. They too are a corrupt agency. But I'd rather have one here, than not have one at all. Without Unions, Corporations will run us into the ground, with absolutely no accountability. I love the Union; I depend on them. The only reason why the GOP wants to get rid of them is because corporations want a consequence-free market. We can't have that, or many will die.


Small businesses less than 3%? Where do you come up with this stuff? I've never heard of any economist that disputes small businesses account for the MAJORITY of private sector jobs. This link I gave earlier contradicts your claims. Not "about 300,000," but 1.4 million households that earn 17% of income and pay 37% of all taxes. The income threshold at the time the chart was made was $343,927, the average income of the top one percent was $960,000. Do you even look at any of this stuff? OWS is calling for more taxes on the richest one percent. They don't understand what makes up the one percent. They have been duped by Obama and other liberals seeking to TRANSFORM this nation.

You misunderstood what I said. The Jobs Act, if approved, would only affect 3% percent of small businesses who EARN MORE THAN A MILLION DOLLARS ANNUALLY. Any business, corporation, or person, who earned profits exceeding more than 1 million dollars annually, would have to pay more taxes on the money earned OVER their FIRST MILLION. And the tax would only cost about 7% percent. This is what was reported on the media, EXCEPT Fox News. The Jobs Act would create more than a million jobs for teachers, firemen, policemen, construction workers, nurses, etc. Why is this a bad thing? Because the very rich folks don't want to pay more taxes, yet they sure as hell don't have a problem taking money from the poor, and they sure as hell don't mind hiding their money overseas to evade taxes. So I believe the people have spoken (majority), and demands have been made. The 99% percent are correct in asking Obama to go after the greedy poop occupying the House.

It's time to CLEAN HOUSE gentlemen. We've got to get those nuts out of Washington, and bring back stability to the economy. And if that means taxing the rich, then I saw GO GET THEM Mr. President. I protected their businesses abroad, and now they can pay me back for my sacrifices! GO GETT'M!!!!!

Joe

PREDICTION: If we get another Republican President, our economy will face the worst disaster since 1929. And we will not be able to recover. More and more businesses will continue to push jobs overseas, leaving hundreds of millions of workers out of work. If this happens, Greece will be fantasy island compared to what will happen here. And I'll support every bit of a badly needed Revolution. Corrupt kings in the past were beheaded. If we get another corrupt GOP President who bows down to the Rich, and pisses on the poor, then my guns are ready.

[Brother Les]

Joe

PREDICTION: If we get another Republican President, our economy will face the worst disaster since 1929. And we will not be able to recover. More and more businesses will continue to push jobs overseas, leaving hundreds of millions of workers out of work. If this happens, Greece will be fantasy island compared to what will happen here. And I'll support every bit of a badly needed Revolution. Corrupt kings in the past were beheaded. If we get another corrupt GOP President who bows down to the Rich, and pisses on the poor, then my guns are ready.

I have been trying to tell you Joe that it is ALREADY to late to avoid a total collapse. All of the 'PIGS' in Europe are collapsing now. Just in the news today...Italy... to big to Fail... To Big to keep from Failing. It matters not if thePrez is a Demo or a Repub.... the Bankers have Both Horses in 'the race' in their stable. Obama and all the Repubs are baught men. Adding over 5trill to the Governent debt is not small feat by the Dems... there is NO stopping the Collapse no matter who is in the white house. the Economy has already been Worse than 1929, when the 'smoke' clears all will see that there is nothing but mirrors. . There is NOTHING holding this economy up. The TRUE unemployment (30%) has passed the 1930s (24%) level..... What is keeping people from rioting in the streets is there have been IN The Last two Years a 99 week exstention of 'Benitifits'.... These are 'covered' by the Federals.... but it is The States that bare the burden and the Costs. We are Worse NOW than the 1929-1947 'Depression'.... And it will get much much worse still. 'Credit' WAS to Loose and now the 'Bills' are coming do and there is NO Money to pay for it. This is the Welfare State that the Liberals have pushed for Decades and now the coffers are bare. I said it once and it must have gone over your head, so I will repeat it again. If The Government decided to TAX every 'TAX' payer (All Tax payers no matter income) there would still not be enough to pay for the exspences that the government has.

[TheForgiven]

I have been trying to tell you Joe that it is ALREADY to late to avoid a total collapse. All of the 'PIGS' in Europe are collapsing now. Just in the news today...Italy... to big to Fail... To Big to keep from Failing. It matters not if thePrez is a Demo or a Repub.... the Bankers have Both Horses in 'the race' in their stable. Obama and all the Repubs are baught men. Adding over 5trill to the Governent debt is not small feat by the Dems... there is NO stopping the Collapse no matter who is in the white house. the Economy has already been Worse than 1929, when the 'smoke' clears all will see that there is nothing but mirrors. . There is NOTHING holding this economy up. The TRUE unemployment (30%) has passed the 1930s (24%) level..... What is keeping people from rioting in the streets is there have been IN The Last two Years a 99 week exstention of 'Benitifits'.... These are 'covered' by the Federals.... but it is The States that bare the burden and the Costs. We are Worse NOW than the 1929-1947 'Depression'.... And it will get much much worse still. 'Credit' WAS to Loose and now the 'Bills' are coming do and there is NO Money to pay for it. This is the Welfare State that the Liberals have pushed for Decades and now the coffers are bare. I said it once and it must have gone over your head, so I will repeat it again. If The Government decided to TAX every 'TAX' payer (All Tax payers no matter income) there would still not be enough to pay for the exspences that the government has.

I love you LES, but can't you please just see it from my perspective? Trust me, I know what you are feeling because you've got to remember that I'm not ignorant at all about Republican Ideals; I've upheld them for more than 20 years. But I was blinded by pride, and over the years, I simply followed the money-trail, which leads right to the top. And because I know without any doubt that their greed is how they got so wealthy, and watching them sit idle as millions of American's are trying to find work, convinced me that they flat out do not care. So why would I support an economical system that only benefits the minority?

All of us as American's are entitled to a great life. I'm an experienced aircraft mechanic with a ton of skills that are now pretty much worthless on the outside. But then my problems are much worse because of my physical handicaps. So now I've got to start over.

What totally blows my mind is how Republicans constantly blame Democrats as though we charged ourselves into oblivion. I only have 2 loans:

1. House Payment
2. Credit Card

When both of these items are paid, my disposable income is still very limited. Why? Because the cost of living is too damn high! Now who's fault is that? No, it's not what you're probably thinking. The cost of living is too high because of ALL the fat cats in Washington; both Republicans AND Democrats. Gasoline is outrageously high! Food prices are too high because we're paying for the gasoline truckers need compensated for, yet this should be a business cost; not a consumer cost. Electricity is too high, because of gasoline. It's like the only cheap bill I have is my water bill.

Now I have a cell phone, a house phone, internet, and with all of this combined, these total to about $350 dollars. Yet I don't complain about these services because I can terminate them anytime I desire, AND they are services that I choose to have. But electricity and gasoline? These needs are too expensive, and quite frankly, it pisses me off!!! :mad: I can't stand the idea of some fat cat getting rich off of my need! I can't stand some fat can in Washington, also profiting from the oil-shares he may have.

So what it all comes down to my anger, it's all about oil. THAT is the reason why I dislike the Bush family. And trust me. If George Bush walked in my yard, I would not blind one bit before I slugged his ugly face! That's how angry I am at these guys for letting Big Oil run amuk with their "free market" mentality. And Big Oil has made everything else around them so damn expensive. So do you blame me for wanting a little revenge here?

Democrats are not perfect, but I will NEVER revert back to Conservative BS! Nothing, and I mean absolutely NOTHING will ever convince me to vote for their cold-hearted BS anymore! I can't afford to. They are lousy leaders, and do not care about the middle class or the poor. At least the Democrats are trying to care. But what are the Republicans doing? Nothing, except protecting those who have money.

And you don't make any sense LES when you use the excuse that the rich don't have enough money to pay down the debt. Who cares about the damn debt? The debt will always be around. Don't you remember this lesson in high school? The debit is just a number that's too big, and is impossible to pay off. The debit limit doesn't impact our society, as they can simply increase the debt limit anytime they desire. But if you're going to blame anyone with the debt, you need to go back to the President and Party who loves to engage in deficit spending. How did Bill Clinton manage to produce such a very good economy, WITH a huge Tax Surplus? The GOP called this, "Over Taxation". Well, it was obviously working, so your arguments are void LES. You've got nothing to stand on. And don't give me that Trickle-Down economics BS as some have been trying to advocate. Trickle Down economics IS NOT why the economy was so well in the 90's. It was well because the top 2% percent paid higher taxes, which enabled more jobs in the private sector AND the public sector. Sure it may have limited some within the upper class to buy more than 1 Porche, but so what? People are more important that someones European car collection.

Here's my stance. I have no problem with someone wanting to get rich. If they own a business, then they deserve it. But someone getting rich should NEVER, and I stress NEVER, come at the cost of another soul! NEVER! And if you reject this, then you are just as bad as the walking-dead who worship the god of money! ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE who complains to me that the deficit is too high, and blames this on the middle class, had better be prepared for my wrath. :lol: Because the deficit is high, NOT because of Veterans, the middle class, the unemployed, or the under-employed. They've contributed yet, but the REAL reason why the deficit is so high is because of all the taxes the Rich have evaded, and we're talking billions and billions of dollars in lost revenue, sitting in China, Switzerland, or some other offshore account. You can take THAT to the bank. And if you don't like it! I could care less!

Joe

[TheForgiven]

Hey Everyone,

I think it is important to mention lest we all fall into the black sludge of this world's ism's that the identification of Christianity with any economic system in the world is misrepresenting the kingdom of God. Even capitalism has blood on its hands and the true church knows this. Christians oppose communism and socialism and every other ism because they have nothing to do with the social fabric of the kingdom of God. We don't opposes other ism's from the standpoint of capitalism, we oppose them from the standpoint of the Kingdom of God.

"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek the one to come" (Heb13:14).

Grace and peace to all,
Rick

Christianity is a Socialist network. Everyone is equal with no one greater than the other. As the scripture declares, "there is no slave, rich, poor, free, etc." They are all one and the same, but each with different levels of responsibility. Joe is no better than LES, and LES is not better than Joe, but we both receive the same amount of grace.

Capitalism is an economic system that permits oppression. For someone to be rich, others must be poor. It is a system that creates competition. While competition can be good, Capitalism (if unchecked or unregulated) could result in a monopoly, and all of us know that this is bad.

Communism is nothing at all like Socialism. Communism doesn't give you the choice to choose your career; the governments tells you what your career will be, how much gas you can use, how much of this, or that, and what you are going to do, or where you will live. Socialism is nothing at all like this. Socialism is the very practice of our society, both in the private and public sectors. The difference of course is that our government has been bought out by special interest groups who have created economical freedom to extort money from the population, thus resulting in the problems we're seeing with the economy now.

The reason why our economy is week is because the middle class is week. The middle class and the poor are the ones who "spend" money. But if they have no money to spend, then the economy slows down. Well, where's all of the money at? Sitting on 6 major Financial Institutions, and it's going nowhere. THAT is the reason why we need to tax them. That money will create more jobs, hence more money will be spent; hence more jobs can be created because productivity will increase; hence the rich still obtain a lot of wealth. I forgot the name of the economist who developed this method, but it's worked for years. Yet throughout history, every single time wealth pools up to much from a few organizations, oppression ism sets it, and before you know it, society is broke again.

It's not rocket science guys. You all are making this harder than what it needs to be. There's nothing wrong with taxing people who relied on extortion to profit. If they would stop trying to gouge the economy to death, and lay wall street to rest (we don't need them), then everyone would be happy. But this stupid idealism that says, "it's my money", keeps getting in the way. Well, it's my money when I have to pay too much money for gas because some hot-shot with Exxon wants to retire with a billion dollar pay check!

Eeeek....I'm getting tired of having to explain this stuff to you guys. I'm sorry all, but you're just not getting it. You're still being locked into an idealism that just isn't true; history has proven it to be false. Companies want everyone to be trapped in debt. And if that doesn't work, they simply look for other ways to extort money. Do you think it was an accident that oil prices when up? They were using oil as their hedge fund to make up for losses from people refusing to go into debt. They are also using energy.

Joe

[heb13-13]

Christianity is a Socialist network. Everyone is equal with no one greater than the other. As the scripture declares, "there is no slave, rich, poor, free, etc." They are all one and the same, but each with different levels of responsibility. Joe is no better than LES, and LES is not better than Joe, but we both receive the same amount of grace.


Joe, Christianity is not Socialism and Socialism is not Christianity.

Christianity has a benevolent King, Socialism under the pretense of helping the poor, oppresses them. The leaders of Socialism live quite well in case you have not noticed.

God does not take from the rich and give to the poor. And Jesus said, "the poor you will always have with you". How do you deal with that seemingly non-chalant statment.

Socialism says "no masters and no servants", yet we have a Master in Christianity. Socialism says, "money and property shall be abolished", yet the Lord teaches no such thing. For quotes, see (James Billington, Fire in the Minds of Men).

"The Devil disguises himself as an angel of light. When the Communists came to power, unprecedented slaughters followed, which eclipse even Hitler's holocaust. Clergymen who had been on the side of the Socialists also became its victims. If communism/socialism would conquer the countries of the Third World, the theologians of liberation would sit in jail together with those who opposed this theology. Socialism and Communism are vague. They basically mean that the economic system will be one in which everyone will work according to his abilities and will receive according to his needs. There will be no state, no division of the world into countries and no social classes because the means of production will belong to all mankind. Suppose this could be attained. Where is God in the picture? Why should this be equated with the Kingdom of God? A society of unbelievers, even of men who hate and scorn God, could choose or be forced to live in such a state. (Richard Wurmbrand - Can Communism be Christian) "

"Scripture says that when the kingdom is the Lord's, "All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee" (Psalm 22:27)

The kingdom of God will not be a stateless society. The people of the saints of the Most High will have dominion over it (Daniel 7:27).

It is not a Kingdom brought about by a political party, but by Jesus, the Son of man (Matt 16:28).

Obviously, there will be none of the evils that plague society now, such as war, famine, pestilence, pollution, injustice, exploitation, racism, etc. The kingdom of God will be one of righteousness, peace, love, joy and the right to possess one's own mansion and garden. (John 14:2).

And Micah says, "in the last days...they shall sit every man under HIS vine and under HIS fig tree" (4:1,4) The Prophet Isaiah reinforces this idea: "They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat (65:22). Thus, the Scripture endorses the notion of private ownership.

Christian Communism or Christian Socialism is a utopian impossibility, a nightmare of exploitation. The theology of revolution is a patent absurdity, a contradiction in terms. (Richard Wurmbrand - Marx and Satan)"

Much peace to you,
Rick

[TheForgiven]

Joe, Christianity is not Socialism and Socialism is not Christianity.

Christianity has a benevolent King, Socialism under the pretense of helping the poor, oppresses them. The leaders of Socialism live quite well in case you have not noticed.

God does not take from the rich and give to the poor. And Jesus said, "the poor you will always have with you". How do you deal with that seemingly non-chalant statment.

Socialism says "no masters and no servants", yet we have a Master in Christianity. Socialism says, "money and property shall be abolished", yet the Lord teaches no such thing. For quotes, see (James Billington, Fire in the Minds of Men).

"The Devil disguises himself as an angel of light. When the Communists came to power, unprecedented slaughters followed, which eclipse even Hitler's holocaust. Clergymen who had been on the side of the Socialists also became its victims. If communism/socialism would conquer the countries of the Third World, the theologians of liberation would sit in jail together with those who opposed this theology. Socialism and Communism are vague. They basically mean that the economic system will be one in which everyone will work according to his abilities and will receive according to his needs. There will be no state, no division of the world into countries and no social classes because the means of production will belong to all mankind. Suppose this could be attained. Where is God in the picture? Why should this be equated with the Kingdom of God? A society of unbelievers, even of men who hate and scorn God, could choose or be forced to live in such a state. (Richard Wurmbrand - Can Communism be Christian) "

"Scripture says that when the kingdom is the Lord's, "All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee" (Psalm 22:27)

The kingdom of God will not be a stateless society. The people of the saints of the Most High will have dominion over it (Daniel 7:27).

It is not a Kingdom brought about by a political party, but by Jesus, the Son of man (Matt 16:28).

Obviously, there will be none of the evils that plague society now, such as war, famine, pestilence, pollution, injustice, exploitation, racism, etc. The kingdom of God will be one of righteousness, peace, love, joy and the right to possess one's own mansion and garden. (John 14:2).

And Micah says, "in the last days...they shall sit every man under HIS vine and under HIS fig tree" (4:1,4) The Prophet Isaiah reinforces this idea: "They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat (65:22). Thus, the Scripture endorses the notion of private ownership.

Christian Communism or Christian Socialism is a utopian impossibility, a nightmare of exploitation. The theology of revolution is a patent absurdity, a contradiction in terms. (Richard Wurmbrand - Marx and Satan)"

Much peace to you,
Rick

It's true that God does not take from the rich, to give to the poor. But He condemns the rich who refuse to give to the poor. Remember this saying, "You have lived your life of luxury".

God blesses those who are fruitful. He does not bless them so that they may splurge on themselves. He blesses them so that they may be more fruitful.

A tree with no fruit is a dead tree; this is a picture of the rich who refuses to give.

Rich people holding the Bible in one hand, and coveting money on the other hand, is a contradiction. Jesus said, "How hard it is for the rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. It is easier for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God". Why is that? Because their heart is centered on their wealth, and their incapacity for love. Paul says, "Tell the Rich to share with those in need...."

It sadden me to watch rich folks who claim they are Christian making excuses for themselves. If a Christian obtained his wealth from oppression, extortion, evasion, manipulation, usury (earning interest from a loan), that person is not a Christian, and does not have the love of God abiding in him/her. "Blessed is he who lends without usury".

Love is the sum of all goodness, and does not oppress his neighbor for the sake of wealth.

Christianity is a Socialist system designs to build equality. But like all forms of community or government, there is a hierarchical structure. I've studied Socialism and by definition, we are a Socialist country. Socialism doesn't advocate the absence of wealth. Socialism is a system that ensures wealth is spread all over, as much as possible, where ever possible. Capitalism is a system that creates oppression, greed, too much wealth, too much power, and also creates poverty.

Those who say that we are a Capitalist society are not telling the truth. The government utilizes social engineering to control the market, supplies, stocks, wages, and profits. This is what socialism is. When a firm or business is paid tax dollars to keep stocks and supplies low in order to control cost, that is an example of Socialism.

There's nothing wrong with Socialism, although it is not a perfect system. But at least it offers a better guarantee that if you simply choose to labor for a living, you will be compensated enough to do just that, and then some. And even within a Socialistic society, the opportunity for wealth is not discouraged, nor taken away.

If we are a Capitalist society, then perhaps you could explain why our Capitalistic system has failed. :winking0071: If giving tax breaks to the rich is supposed to help the "Job Creators" create jobs, then why is the unemployment rate so high? :winking0071:

You cannot defend a system such as Capitalism when it's proven to be a failure. I for one do not desire this system, anymore than a desire to make so much money that I wouldn't know what to do with. With a lot of money, comes great responsibility. And while it is true that we, as individuals, should be responsible for ourselves, in a Capitalistic system, our failures are usually made by the irresponsibility's of others. If I lose my job because my company decided to move overseas to add Capital on top of what it already has, they are in essence displaying an irresponsible behavior, and are choosing wealth over country.

DUTY, HONOR, and COUNTRY. That's something that Corporations should add to their sayings. Because there is no honor is American Corporations electing to outsource jobs overseas nations for the simple exploitation of cheaper foreign labor. There is no honor to your country when you hide wealth overseas, and star your own government of badly needed capital. As Rachael says on her commercials, it takes government to build something as large as dam. You can't be "the guy" who builds something like that. You can't be "the business" or "the corporation" who builds something like this. It takes innovation, skill, and government to build something like this. If you're going to build something big, then it takes a lot more than a corporation to accomplish such a fantastic task. Who build the great wall in China? It's country did; not its corporation.

End of speech.

Joe

[heb13-13]

It's true that God does not take from the rich, to give to the poor. But He condemns the rich who refuse to give to the poor. Remember this saying, "You have lived your life of luxury".

God may condemn Joe, but you and I are not to. Also, Jesus did not come to condemn. He did not even condemn the rich man who loved his riches and would not sell all that he owned and give to the poor. Men would have condemned him, but Jesus did not.


God blesses those who are fruitful. He does not bless them so that they may splurge on themselves. He blesses them so that they may be more fruitful.

If men splurge on themselves what business is that of ours? Christians do not chastise the world.


A tree with no fruit is a dead tree; this is a picture of the rich who refuses to give.

A tree with no fruit is also a picture of those who judge and condemn.


Rich people holding the Bible in one hand, and coveting money on the other hand, is a contradiction. Jesus said, "How hard it is for the rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. It is easier for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God". Why is that? Because their heart is centered on their wealth, and their incapacity for love. Paul says, "Tell the Rich to share with those in need...."

No one has the spiritual capacity to tell anyone to share when they are angry at the "rich". I have never heard of any brother going around telling worldly people "to share". I have not even heard of brothers going around and telling other brothers to share.


It sadden me to watch rich folks who claim they are Christian making excuses for themselves. If a Christian obtained his wealth from oppression, extortion, evasion, manipulation, usury (earning interest from a loan), that person is not a Christian, and does not have the love of God abiding in him/her. "Blessed is he who lends without usury".

I don't know if you have noticed it, but in all your posts you seem obsessed with riches.


Love is the sum of all goodness, and does not oppress his neighbor for the sake of wealth.

Are we able to be righteous judges on deciding just who is oppressing their neighbor?


Christianity is a Socialist system designs to build equality.

Wrong again. Christianity is not a socialist system but people have made a perverted, earth-bound system of christianity (counterfeit). It has nothing to do with the Kingdom of God. It is counterfeit christianity.


There's nothing wrong with Socialism

That is as naive a statement as saying there is nothing wrong with Capitalism or any other ism. I really wonder whether you read anyone's posts.


If we are a Capitalist society, then perhaps you could explain why our Capitalistic system has failed. :winking0071:

I never said we are a Capitalistic system. I think we are a hybrid of Socialism and Crony Capitalism. Both failures and both unfair. So what? That is the world we live in but we are just passing through. We are not called to reform the world's systems using the "arm of flesh".


You cannot defend a system such as Capitalism when it's proven to be a failure.

I'm not. Read my posts.


I for one do not desire this system, anymore than a desire to make so much money that I wouldn't know what to do with. With a lot of money, comes great responsibility.

Just because you don't think that you could be responsible with large sums of money does not mean that there are not people that can be and are responsible. Again, that judgment is not left up to us.


And while it is true that we, as individuals, should be responsible for ourselves, in a Capitalistic system, our failures are usually made by the irresponsibility's of others.

I don't blame any of my failures on anyone else. That would make me a blameshifter. We are not to be blameshifters. Jesus wasn't and His children are not, either. I am not a victim. A Christian is never anyone's victim. Haven't you heard Joe, we are all as "sheep led to the slaughter". Who did Jesus blame for His problems?

As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Rom 8:36

'Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 8:37-39

Joe, we are more than conquerors through Christ Jesus our Lord. What kind of witness is it to complain and moan and groan about the world's systems of inequities?


If I lose my job because my company decided to move overseas to add Capital on top of what it already has, they are in essence displaying an irresponsible behavior, and are choosing wealth over country.

Is man your source or is God your source?


DUTY, HONOR, and COUNTRY. That's something that Corporations should add to their sayings. Because there is no honor is American Corporations electing to outsource jobs overseas nations for the simple exploitation of cheaper foreign labor. There is no honor to your country when you hide wealth overseas, and starve your own government of badly needed capital.

Welcome to the sinful and unfair world we live in. But again, how does that limit God in your life and how does that keep you from being more than a conqueror through Jesus Christ? Nothing is supposed to separate us from the love of God but you are letting this world's unfair systems damage your faith and Christian witness.

It is in times like these that a Christians faith and trust in God and loving attitude towards ALL should shine, even and especially in the midst of economic tribulation or any kind of tribulation for that matter.

Joe, as a Christian and follower of Jesus Christ, I think you should reconsider your heart and attitude towards the world. People don't want anything to do with Jesus or God if Christians are judgemental and put burdens on them. They already have the burden of sin and no Savior.

I'm praying for you bro.

Rick

[Brother Les]

Joe
A few years ago, a welder invented a new welding machine that runs off of water. It abstracts the Hydrogen from the water, and somehow converts this into energy that can be used to cut steal. This same technology could be used to power motorized vehicles.

There were true Hydrogen cars (pour water in tank, crank with GENERATOR and produce hydrogen gas to burn) around 1905-1910.... read a long article about them. The patents were bought up and the 'technology' was killed.



And you don't make any sense LES when you use the excuse that the rich don't have enough money to pay down the debt. Who cares about the damn debt? The debt will always be around.



I was speaking of all tax payers, not only the wealthy. When debt is low it is managable, it is passed the point of being manageable. The interest alone will disrupt the U.S. economy. This is just the 'public National' debt. It does not include States and local governments or the private sector.

Interest Expense on the Debt Outstanding
The Interest Expense on the Debt Outstanding includes the monthly interest for:

•U.S. Treasury notes and bonds
•Foreign and domestic series certificates of indebtedness, notes and bonds
•Savings bonds
•Government Account Series (GAS)
•State and Local Government series (SLGs) and other special purpose securities.
Amortized discount or premium on bills, notes and bonds is also included in the monthly interest expense.

The fiscal year represents the total interest expense on the Debt Outstanding for a given fiscal year. This includes the months of October through September. View current month details (XLS Format, File size 62KB, uploaded 11/04/2011).

Interest Expense Fiscal Year 2012
October $27,771,392,426.03
Fiscal Year Total $27,771,392,426.03

Available Historical Data Fiscal Year End
2011 $454,393,280,417.03
2010 $413,954,825,362.17
2009 $383,071,060,815.42
2008 $451,154,049,950.63
2007 $429,977,998,108.20
2006 $405,872,109,315.83
2005 $352,350,252,507.90
2004 $321,566,323,971.29
2003 $318,148,529,151.51
2002 $332,536,958,599.42
2001 $359,507,635,242.41
2000 $361,997,734,302.36
1999 $353,511,471,722.87
1998 $363,823,722,920.26
1997 $355,795,834,214.66
1996 $343,955,076,695.15
1995 $332,413,555,030.62
1994 $296,277,764,246.26
1993 $292,502,219,484.25
1992 $292,361,073,070.74
1991 $286,021,921,181.04
1990 $264,852,544,615.90
1989 $240,863,231,535.71
1988 $214,145,028,847.73
[–] Text Size [+]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Don't you remember this lesson in high school? The debit is just a number that's too big, and is impossible to pay off. The debit limit doesn't impact our society, as they can simply increase the debt limit anytime they desire.


Did you miss you college lessons on Fractional Banking and 'creating money' (credit) out of thin air. All of this created money turns into a debt that must be repaid and add to this the Interest that Was NOT created but must come from assests of Real Value. Increasing the debt in a DeFlationary period will make the coming collapse Faster and Harder when it hits. This is why the Fed Chairman is trying to flood the markets with Cash 9QE1,2,3) in order to Create Inflation... When perceived values rise it is easier to handle debt maintenance. When perceived housing, companies, bonds, CASH values start to loose their crediable price, what will start is a race to the bottom to unload 'troubled' assets. You seem to not have a clue on what is going on in Europe with every European economy imploding. The American economy is fast aproaching the tipping point also.


But if you're going to blame anyone with the debt, you need to go back to the President and Party who loves to engage in deficit spending. How did Bill Clinton manage to produce such a very good economy, WITH a huge Tax Surplus?

The 'surplus' was from gutting the military on ships and weapons. he also moved the Social Security Fund from independent to part of the government budget. Just like that more than 2 trillion flowed into the Government coffers at no cost to the government but worthless IOUs. And let me guess....? It was the Republicans who were in charge of both houses that did this bait and switch. Makes both Repubs and Demos 'look good', but in the long run hurt the country as later presidents had to massively increase military spending and the SS fund HAD no real Assests.

The GOP called this, "Over Taxation". Well, it was obviously working, so your arguments are void LES. You've got nothing to stand on. And don't give me that Trickle-Down economics BS as some have been trying to advocate. Trickle Down economics IS NOT why the economy was so well in the 90's. It was well because the top 2% percent paid higher taxes, which enabled more jobs in the private sector AND the public sector. Sure it may have limited some within the upper class to buy more than 1 Porche, but so what? People are more important that someones European car collection.

There were 'surpluses' on paper but not in reality. Why should there be an income tax? Why should there be a sales tax. The 'rich' have fled the country with their assests because of the high taxation rates. They are not a captive people made to keep their assests here to be taxed. 'The Rich' will always find a way around the IRS rules.


http://www.usdebtclock.org/




stay out of finance Joe, it is way over your head.

[Tomret]

I decided to cut out all of the excessive wording I had from this post to keep it short and simple. I apologize for bogging the readers down with too many points.

If this 2 page 1127 word post is the short and simple version thanks for not posting the long version. :rolleyes:


BIG GOVERNMENT or BIG CORPORATIONS?

That's the question you guys have to deal with. Which is better, or is there a difference? Now you need to think very hard on this, because the answer might astonish you.

The GOP has been preaching, just as they've always preached, the the government is too big. What do they mean by this? Some of you may be thinking that the size of government means too much legislation, too many laws, and too many departments either creating, and/or enforcing those laws. But that's only a small percentage of what the GOP means by "smaller government". Governor Rick Perry stated in one of his speeches, "When I'm elected as President, I will do everything within my power to make the government as inconsequential to you as possible". Simply put, he wants to eliminate corporate taxes, and eliminate government regulations designs to keep society as safe as possible. Perry is an oil man, as is the Bush family. If they had their way, we'd be building more oil refineries and even more nuclear power plants. Now I don't know if any of you have ever been around an oil field. Let me just say that it's horrible! The fumes constantly burning make your stomach sick, and the headaches are almost unbearable. When I was in Kuwait, it was horrible to wake up to the same kerosene smell and smoke every single day. My head constantly hurt, breathing was sometimes difficult, and most of us had stomach aches. Trust me when I saw, you do not want to live around oil refineries; it's horrible and destructive to the environment. Perry would like to see carbon-credits done away with, not that this solves our pollution problems. In fact, all of the GOP would like to totally eliminate all government regulations forcing manufactures to be responsible with the environment. We’ve seen some of their cheating with the last oil spill in the gulf. Regulations were in place, but they were not being followed, because Big Oil (the largest corporation in the world) disregarded safety precautions which cost the lives of thousands of marine wild life, and also severely crippled coastal fishing, shrimping, etc. So as we can see, Big Government is vital to the protection of us; the consumers.

No one has proposed ELIMINATION of all taxes and regulations. Why do you persist in such deliberate exaggerations? The problem with Big Government regulations is that those supposed to follow them can't understand them. And neither can those who are supposed to enforce them! Result; expensive Big Government bureaucracies that are practically useless. Those regulations hindered or blocked assistance from other nations in cleaning up the oil spill.


Now here's what's really going on with the GOP. They're complaining about the deficit but you have to remember that George Bush and his administration were high deficit spenders. They engaged us in the war with Iraq, which was costing us billions of dollars, thus contributing to the national debt crisis they are complaining about. Then there was the bail-out money that George Bush gave to Wall Street, and of course President Obama who enabled GM to sustain itself with his distribution of bail-out money.

When the GOP says they want to reduce the size of government, deregulation is one of their proposals. What else? How about cutting safety entitlements for the middle class and the poor; the ones who need the money. They want to cut back on infrastructure, teachers, firemen, military personnel (not equipment and technology), medical (except for themselves), pensions, etc. But is this fair? Well, it would ONLY be fair if they also cut out corporate welfare for the rich. Big Oil is given huge taxes breaks exceeding billions of dollars in a 10 year period. The very wealthy are given tax loop-holes so they can evade paying taxes at the end of the year. So in truth, when they say they want to reduce the size of government, what they really mean is cutting back on middle class public sector jobs, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, continuing the huge tax breaks and incentives for the rich. So they're trying to take away money from those who need it, so that they can give to those who don't need it!

Now how in the world can any of you keep a straight face and say that the GOP is right? You guys have been sucked into the lies of the Republicans, just as I have for 20+ years. Trust me when I saw, that the top 2% percent DID NOT get very wealthy because they went to college, or started at the bottom. They had money to begin with, and in this world, it takes money to make money. Now there are a few success stories of those who may have been born into poverty, and grew wealthy from products popular with society. But this makes up only about 17% percent of all success stories, with the rest involving greedy folks who invest money handed down to them from generation to generation.

So in a nut shell, the GOP wants to take money away from those who need it, fire as many public employees to increase the unemployment rate, so they can make President Obama "a one term President".

I promise you; hear me now. If we get a Republican President in office, you will see the worst times this country has ever faced. They will keep giving huge tax breaks to the rich, cut spending on those who need it, force the middle class into poverty, and the poor into their graves, and allow corporations to continue oppressing wage earners, while their wealth continues to sky-rocket to levels never before achieved. So if you want to vote Republican, and you are poor, don't expect to get any further. And if you are already rich, I'm sure you'll gloat over the freedom to extort even more money from the economy.

In conclusion, the lies of the GOP who say that reducing government helps the economy is nothing more than a hidden truth; reducing government by taking away Republican sector jobs and middle class entitlements, is nothing more than an attempt to give more money to those who don't need it; the richest American's who already own this "big government".

Remember the question? BIG GOVERNMENT OR BIG CORPORATION? The answer is, there's no difference. Our government has been bought by special interest groups and our political leaders have been lobbied out.

Joe

The full question is; Big Government that determines our needs and just deserts FOR us, or competition by Big (and small) Corporations that produce stuff and services we want? Reducing size and power of government would naturally reduce influence of lobbyists. Some federal oversight is necessary, but they increasingly assume power that rightfully belongs to individual states.

Just heard on the news: On the heels of the 1/2 billion dollar Solyndra scandal, the Obama administration plans on another taxpayer funded low interest 3/4 billion dollar loan to Severstal North America, subsidiary of Russian steel producer OAO Severstal to make a high-technology steel at their plant in Dearborn. Strange since according to reports, that steel has been manufactured by US companies since the 1980s and there is substantial excess capacity today. BIG GOVERNMENT IN ACTION!

[Tomret]

Come on my friend. Even a few Republicans admitted that there was a problem with the income gap. What it shows is obvious; the rich kept getting richer since 1970, while the middle class stayed pretty much the same, or slightly increased but not enough to accommodate the higher cost of living. The Bush tax cuts did not contribute to wage increases. In fact, as soon as he cut taxes, Corporate profits spiked very high until September 11th, which then briefly declined, and then all of a sudden spiked to record levels never before achieved. Now why hasn't wages spiked? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out.

The interactive chart here (http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=%5EGSPC+Interactive#chart3:symbol=^gspc; range=20000103,20111107;indicator=volume;charttype =line;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=on) reflects the economic response to the Bush tax cuts. At the bottom right drag the pointer to the year 2000. Position the cursor on the trend line and time period is displayed at upper left. The dot com rally peaked in August 2000. There was no high spike until Sept. 11, 2001, the chart shows there was steady decline until Oct. 2002. Bush's Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 was accelerated by the Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003. Beginning in March 2003 the economy rallied and grew until Oct. 2007 when it matched the previous high. Then the disastrous housing bubble bust. The present tentative recovery is more emotion driven than ever. The Keynesian collapse is turning into an avalanche but the central bankers like our FED cling to the same policies that have caused this collapse. Piling debt upon debt is unsustainable for individuals AND nations.


And as for calling me a liberal, be careful, because I'm mighty proud of it now. Remember, I used to absorb all of the Republican BS for 20+ years. But the truth is in the money; all you have to do is follow the money, and you'd easily see where the money is going, up....up....up....up AND AWAY!!! Right to the top 2% percent.

Ah, the strategy leaks out. The problem is no longer just the 1% but has expanded to the 2%. Next will be the 5%, then the 25%, and finally the 53% that already pay 100% of all income taxes. But that won't be enough, maybe another AMT tax by another name, or a tax on the value of free healthcare. Endless possibilities!


Republicans are stuck on an 18th century economical theory. They believe in low production, high cost. Cutting production or supplies increased cost. Higher costs equates to more profits. Cost high enough will also produce higher dividends on those taking out loans to buy lesser stocks. Take a good look at how they manipulated the oil market, and the food industry to minimized their profits.

Surely you can find a quote by a Republican making such a statement. High costs stifle consumption and profit, and buying "lesser stocks" would be the investment strategy of an idiot. I took a good look to see who favors the high gas prices you hate and found this (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/265809/are-sky-high-gas-prices-good-victor-davis-hanson) and this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlTxGHn4sH4). Yep, contrary to what you claim Joe, it's the liberal social engineers that promote higher energy prices.


You misunderstood what I said. The Jobs Act, if approved, would only affect 3% percent of small businesses who EARN MORE THAN A MILLION DOLLARS ANNUALLY. Any business, corporation, or person, who earned profits exceeding more than 1 million dollars annually, would have to pay more taxes on the money earned OVER their FIRST MILLION. And the tax would only cost about 7% percent. This is what was reported on the media, EXCEPT Fox News. The Jobs Act would create more than a million jobs for teachers, firemen, policemen, construction workers, nurses, etc. Why is this a bad thing? Because the very rich folks don't want to pay more taxes, yet they sure as hell don't have a problem taking money from the poor, and they sure as hell don't mind hiding their money overseas to evade taxes. So I believe the people have spoken (majority), and demands have been made. The 99% percent are correct in asking Obama to go after the greedy poop occupying the House.

I watched Obama's speech in its entirety ON FOX NEWS in which the overriding point was "Pass this bill now!" That's the Pelosi philosophy of pass this bill so we can see what's in it! He called for rebuilding infrastructure, roads, bridges, airports, yada, yada - Sounds familiar...ah yes, that used to be called 'shovel ready' projects, which turned out to be not so much. Good news, all this $450 billion will be paid for. The super committee charged with cutting the deficit by $1.5 trillion over next 10 years will now have to come up with $2 trillion - Wow! That was easy. :lmbo:


PREDICTION: If we get another Republican President, our economy will face the worst disaster since 1929. And we will not be able to recover. More and more businesses will continue to push jobs overseas, leaving hundreds of millions of workers out of work. If this happens, Greece will be fantasy island compared to what will happen here. And I'll support every bit of a badly needed Revolution. Corrupt kings in the past were beheaded. If we get another corrupt GOP President who bows down to the Rich, and pisses on the poor, then my guns are ready.

Revolution? Better retire quick before your superiors get wind of your attitude and boot you out with nothing. If the liberal Dems get control you won't have your guns. Thank the GOP for protecting your 2nd amendment right.

[TheForgiven]

OK folks, let's make this very simple without the long lectures which seems to be getting nowhere. It's obvious that you two are governed by an ideology and not the truth. I've been a conservative Republican for over 20 years, and I made the swap two years ago. Does this make me bad? No, I do not believe that it does. You see, I actually work for a living. I don't let money work for me, because I haven't "earned" enough money from wages to have it work for me.

SO!!!

Where is the money at? Out of all of America's wealth, who possesses the majority of it, and how did they get it?

Answer those questions, and we'll go from there.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

LES if I see one more post about the Deficit, I'm going to stop discussing this with you. The Deficit will always be there, and it was the Republicans under the Bush administration who blew the surplus created under Bill Clinton. Yet for some reason, like a blind bat, you keep trying to pin the donkey on Obama. I get the feeling that you hate him because he's trying to help the poor. I get the feeling that you hate him because he's a Democrat. But out of all your hate, how much TRUTHFUL REASON do you even have to hate him?

The Deficit has not absolutely nothing to do with me OR you. We are not impacted by government debt. The number simply means that they are paying out more than they are taking in. Does it take a rocket scientist to figure out why? Who's been getting all of the HUGE, and I mean HUGE tax breaks for the past 8 years? For some reason, you keep ignoring this simple little truth.

Now please, stop bringing up the Deficit; that's just Republican noise as though that's what caused the economy to tank. The Deficit has nothing to do with the economy EXCEPT when the GOP wants to cut Public Service jobs. Oh, but you'll never hear them cutting their OWN pay, or their pension, or their HUGE tax breaks, etc.

You hate the military, you hate paying taxes, you hate....hate....hate. And for some reason, you act as though that rich people deserve to be rich because they supposedly EARNED their wealth. Yea, if you call raping from the elderly to pay the greedy earning money. If you can hiding money in offshore accounts to evade taxes earning their money.

If you are right, then how is it that the majority of American do not agree with you? What makes you better than them? What contributions have you made to your country, and they haven't?

Out of curiosity LES, what exactly do you do for living? Everyone knows that I'm in the service, getting ready to retire. Well, what do you do? I'm very curious now.

Joe

[Brother Les]

Jioe
The Deficit has not absolutely nothing to do with me OR you. We are not impacted by government debt.

Interest on Federal Debt.
2011 $454,393,280,417.03


This is last years total of Interest on the Federal Debt. We are currenty in the 2012 fiscal year. Do you notice that this number is almost the amount of the 'jobs payoff to unions bill'? The Intertest in Always is Paid first to the Bond holders. The largest Bond holder is the Federal ( which are not part of the government) Reserve (has NO Reserves to back up their holdings). This money paid back to the Federal Reserve is taken OUT of the money supply.... and 'retired' into thin air. The Government has the responsibility to cover its' debt obligations BEFORE it is able to spend one thin dime on Government functions. 454 Million, gone..... multiply that year by year at an increasing rate and less and less REAL prodjects that need to be done by the Fed Gov. are not being done. The Federal Government in reality is borrowing money to pay the interest (none of the principle) on money already borrowed.

Joe, you should be seeing this reality first hand as ALL military budgets are being reviewed for cuts and YOU will loose your retirement because of Government OVER SPENDING.

The R$ch can move money very easyily and they are. It is better for them to invest in over seas markets pay is low and standards are low and where governments to not over power companies with crushing regulations.

Was it not Clinton who was president when NAFTA and GATT was passed. 'Free Trade' that flooded this country with ultra cheap goods made by next to slave labor workers. American Exports have crashed in the last 3 decades....


I get the feeling that you hate him because he's a Democrat

I am a Blue Dog Democrat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Dog_Coalition . Don't hate the man at all, it is the system that concerns me. I guess since you are such a hard nose Yellow Dog Democrat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_dog_Democrat , you are anti-second amendment and pro-abortion?



Out of curiosity LES, what exactly do you do for living? Everyone knows that I'm in the service, getting ready to retire. Well, what do you do? I'm very curious now.

Joe


I work with my head and my hands. I get dirty in the morning and stay that way all day long Monday through Friday. On the weekends I work at my 'part time Job' (15 years long) to make ends meet. You may not have noticed that I do not post on weekends.... that is because I am at my second job of labor.

You may think that you are good at working on planes. You may think that you are good at being a Religious Apologetic. But you are foolishly stupid when it comes to economics and money matters.

(I have two degrees in Business Economic and Accounting and Business Management. And no.... they did not help me get out of the lower middle class, as I am still barely below adverage on the economic scale. They did open my eyes to the Financial world and how IT is all screwed up. What I have going for me is that I have no Debt and pay off everything at the begining of the Month. As for you, Joe, you will Never be out of Debt. You believe that and so... it is so...)

[Brother Les]

What happens when a countrys debt gets so high that Rating Agencies reduce the bond ratings? Here is what Barclays Capital says about Italy when the Bonds yields go above 5.5 %..... GAME OVER.

The 'U.S.' government bond yields are less the 1%.... these are historic LOWS. Average Bond yields should be 3-5% per year. this is the interest Paid on bonds. The U.S. Interest is hitting 500 Billion on 1% interest. Raise that to 3%-4% and now the yearly interest rate is now 1.5 Trillion-2 Trillion Dollars..... This is the Complete amount of Tax revenue coming into the Government coffers. Nothing being paid but interest on The Debt.




Barclays Says Italy Is Finished: “Mathematically Beyond Point Of No Return”


Zero Hedge
Wednesday, November 9, 2011

Euphoria may have returned briefly courtesy of yet another promise for a resignation that will likely not be effectuated for weeks or months, if at all, and already someone has done the math on what the events in the past several days reveal for Italy. That someone is Barcalys, the math is not pretty, and the conclusion is that “Italy is now mathematically beyond point of no return.”


Summary from Barclays Capital inst sales:

1) At this point, it seems Italy is now mathematically beyond point of no return
2) While reforms are necessary, in and of itself not be enough to prevent crisis
3) Reason? Simple math–growth and austerity not enough to offset cost of debt
4) On our ests, yields above 5.5% is inflection point where game is over
5) The danger:high rates reinforce stability concerns, leading to higher rates
6) and deeper conviction of a self sustaining credit event and eventual default
7) We think decisions at eurozone summit is step forward but EFSF not adequate
8) Time has run out–policy reforms not sufficient to break neg mkt dynamics
9) Investors do not have the patience to wait for austerity, growth to work
10) And rate of change in negatives not enuff to offset slow drip of positives
11) Conclusion: We think ECB needs to step up to the plate, print and buy bonds
12) At the moment ECB remains unwilling to be lender last resort on scale needed
13) But frankly will have hand forced by market given massive systemic risk

Hint:Not Good.Sell EUR,

[Tomret]

OK folks, let's make this very simple without the long lectures which seems to be getting nowhere. It's obvious that you two are governed by an ideology and not the truth. I've been a conservative Republican for over 20 years, and I made the swap two years ago. Does this make me bad? No, I do not believe that it does. You see, I actually work for a living. I don't let money work for me, because I haven't "earned" enough money from wages to have it work for me.

No, the swap doesn't make you bad, just backward:


Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has no heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains. by Winston Churchill. :lol:


So!!!

Where is the money at? Out of all of America's wealth, who possesses the majority of it, and how did they get it?

Answer those questions, and we'll go from there.

Speaking for myself, trying to discuss this 'with' you is like trying to discuss eschatology with a futurist. I've given answers with supporting sources, almost all of which you ignore. You simply repeat your opinionated mantra with no supporting sources. Well, you did offer a few bits from MSNBC (Moderated Select News Benefitting Current administration). You certainly have a right to your opinion and a right to support policies that will necessarily cause energy prices to skyrocket, but you should stop distorting facts. You can also support the so called 99% who, after all, are pro civil assembly, right? Well, not for everybody (http://americansforprosperity.org/110811-videos-violent-occupy-protesters-attacking-defending-american-dream-summit?tr=y&auid=9827543)!

I may make further contributions to this thread that are relevant, but to continue giving answers to your claims that will be ignored is an exercise in futility.

[TheForgiven]

My friends, I understand what you're doing, and I know where you are coming from. But it's a simple question.

WHERE is the money at, and HOW did it get there? It's not that difficult to answer.

The income chart over the past 30 years is not just from an MSNBC source; that is an official report right out of the white house. Can you prove that the source is in error? I've yet to see Republicans argue against the chart. Even House Speaker Bayner (spelling) admitted that there was a huge income disparity between the classes. But he doesn't care; none of them do.

So because you guys refuse to answer my question, I'll answer it for you.

The top 2% percent are sitting on 60% percent of American wealth. Only about 40% percent circulates around the economy. That is not enough money for the government and the middle class to share via business and/or services. That's where the money is at.

Now, how did they get this money?

1. Profits earned from products and services
2. Profits extorted from hidden fees
3. Profits extorted from high interest rate loans
4. Tax evasion and not paying monthly income taxes
5. Bail-out money
6. Paying workers low wages
7. Huge bonuses from tax incentives by the Fed
8. Taking advantage no foreclosed homes, and turning them around for profit
9. Building hedge funds in Big Oil (share holders)
10. Building Hedge funds in big Banks (Bank of America, Wells Fargo, etc)
11. Exploiting slave-line tactics with foreign employee's
12. Hiring illegal immigrants for private jobs

There's a lot more, but these are enough to explain how and why the rich keep getting richer, while the middle class and the poor remain in their status.

Now, can you justify any of these reasons they make so much profit? I don't believe that you can.

Joe

[Brother Les]

Now, can you justify any of these reasons they make so much profit? I don't believe that you can.

Joe


You have worked for a NON-profit company all of your life, Joe. You had a set payscale and Lived off of Subsidies given to you by the Working Private Sector. You now sound like a spoiled rotten little kid, because some people in the private sector have went out and worked and worked The System and have more money and asserts than you do. Jealiousy seems to be coming to the for front from you. You WASTED your life living in a Socialist sytem and now that you are not in the cradle to grave system you are acting like a whiny snot nose punk.

You have not addressed the crisis of our national debt. Greece for all purposes and intents is now a slave state to the Eruopean Banks because of its' debt. If you think that there are not enough social sevices and 'public sector job', you need to take a close look at Greece. Greeces Public sector is going to be desimated with thousands and thousand removed from their cradle to grave jobs. The Public sectors retirement age has been raised and will go higher. Retirement accounts are being wiped out and reduced to a SUBsitant levels. Italy is at the edge of the cliff and ready to topple over because of its' debt. NONE of Europe can not survive because of their high debt loads..... What will happen when those Austerity measures come here? No unemployment checks money. No Food stamps money. No subsidized housing or child care. No money for city street lights, no money for police, firemen. City after City going Bankrupt. Oh, it is not 'WHEN' will it happen here.... it is already here. This country is falling apart and will not recover for more that 15 years. 'Rich' people did not cause this..... All of the people caused this by influencing 'our' congressmen with 'hand outs', both to 'the rich and the poor'. I personally know of 6 families in my neighborhood (shows what kind of neighborhood I live in) that the 'father and mother' do not work (and most can as all are mid age and less) because if they did then they would loose their government 'benitfits'...... They would all agree with you Joe, they like the socialist lifestyle of receiving goods and services for doing nothing, just like you do. They wine because of all the nice things that working people have and they don't. The military used you up and now you don't like if because you are getting screwed...... Your not the first and you wont be the last. You bent over and took that screwing for so long you should be used to it by now.... Problem is... you are to dense to understand how the system works. Living in a closed society as long as you have makes it almost imposiable for you to live in the Real World. You have been put out to pasture and are untrainable because of your socialist programming. The gravy train is over and you are screwed and all you can do now is cry and the sad thing is that you don't have a clue of what is the Real World. You do very well as a Biblical Apoligetic, but in the real world your lost without your mommy military.

[heb13-13]

Les and Tomret,

I feel your pain. Great posts by both of you.

Les, Yields on Italian 10-year debt jumped to 7.4%, a record for the euro era and a level at which other EU members, notably Ireland, Portugal and Greece have required bailouts.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/no-solution-europe-stocks-tumble-italian-yields-surge-191241349.html


Just as an interesting aside. During the Great Depression, after the first leg down on the stock market, the market rose almost 70%. Guess what precipitated the second leg down? You guessed it! Europe defaulting.

This time around people are thinking the DOW will most probably crash to 3000-5000.

Have we learned our lessons? Have a look at this link to see what the Government did, that caused the Great Depression and what they did to recover. History repeating itself?

Great Myths of the Great Depression http://www.fee.org/articles/great-myths-of-the-great-depression/ (http://www.fee.org/articles/great-myths-of-the-great-depression/)

The Great, Great,Great,Great Depression

To properly understand the events of the time, it is factually appropriate to view the Great Depression as not one, but four consecutive downturns rolled into one. These four 'phases' are:[2]

I. Monetary Policy and the Business Cycle
II. The Disintegration of the World Economy
III. The New Deal
IV. The Wagner Act

All the best,
Rick

[TheForgiven]

You have worked for a NON-profit company all of your life, Joe. You had a set payscale and Lived off of Subsidies given to you by the Working Private Sector. You now sound like a spoiled rotten little kid, because some people in the private sector have went out and worked and worked The System and have more money and asserts than you do. Jealiousy seems to be coming to the for front from you. You WASTED your life living in a Socialist sytem and now that you are not in the cradle to grave system you are acting like a whiny snot nose punk.

Whinny nose punk eh? Wow! Sounds like someone is just jealous because I SERVED my country instead of EXTORTED IT for profits....assuming that's what you do for a living. I've noticed that you never bothered to mention what you do for a living. No problem; not unexpected from someone who may have something to hide.

This just goes to show you how misinformed you are about military pay. It's very dishonoring and quite frankly, selfish of you to constantly rant that the military are working off of the backs of the Private Sector. Well what would you propose LES? No military? No government? Let us all just return to the days of horse carriages, millstones, and simple people finding a small piece of land, farming the fields, paying no taxes, having lots of children and hoping for boys to help you till and plant the field? But then, some strangers come up to you, point a gun right at your head, take your food, burn your house, rape your wife, steal your children and turn them into slaves, or perhaps concubines. Yea, we'd be real good then eh? No police to call for protection because nobody wants to pay taxes; no military to fight off these invaders; no form of government; no protection for travel; no FCC to monitor the friendly skies. And meanwhile, other countries who DO have a military, overtake your dream world, pollute your air, eat your food, and make you their slaves.

You're stupid if you think that paying taxes to support infrastructure, military, law enforcement, government protections, services, and/or safety, is a waste, and all because you have a problem with paying taxes. But you SURE AS HELL don't have a problem with receiving tax breaks right? :lol: I bet you're not complaining about that. You're a bad model for the American citizen LES. I bet you're one of those fanatics who burn the American flag.

And in case you didn't know, our paycheck is considered salary. Are you that ignorant? Have you never heard of "salary"? This means we work long hours, sometimes 70+ hours a week, plus weekends, and our pay is the same. And trust me, it's not a lot of money. If you think taking home $4,069.00 a month is a lot of money for the job that I do, then you're crazy! I don't flip burgers, manage restaurants, or sweep/mop floors for a living. I work on a multimillion dollar aircraft with bundles of technology, designed by corporations who are paid TAX DOLLARS knuckle head! And it took me years to gain experience to work on America's best fighter jet; the F-16 Fighting Falcon. And who's going to do it? YOU? Just what do YOU do for a living LES? Are you one of those spoiled panzies who has extorted so much money from the middle class and the poor, and so instead of working for a living, you let your money work for you? Now on that note, how do people make money from money? By investing in financial institutions such as Wall Street. And where do they get their profits from? Over priced products or commodities on top of high interest rate loans! Yea, so these so called folks whom you claim "work work and work" for a living, are full of it!

And I certainly don't hear you complaining about the paychecks of our Political leaders. What exactly do THEY do that warrants them more than $150,000.00 annually, with FREE HEALTHCARE and a LIFE TIME PENSION for only serving 4 years as a politician.

What's so sad about you LES is that you are acting as though the deficit, which you seem to be so worried about, which has nothing to do with your pay or my pay, should be balanced off of the backs of the middle class and the poor! This is very selfish, unwise, and illogical. You can't squeeze water from a rock, but you can get plenty of water of damned up lakes (our corporations); the ones who EXTORT profits for a living.

So if their assets are that good to you, no matter how crooked their tactics are, then you are no different than them.

And by the way. I've been given a job offer as a civilian employee doing the same thing I'm doing now (managing and scheduling maintenance) and if I get this job, it will pay more than what I've earned as an active duty member, WITH health care, and a pension plan. So guess what LES. Shut up and pay your taxes, or get the heck out of my country, you dehumanized waste of oxygen! Your comments and ideology are worse than a moth eaten rag soaked in cow feces! :mad:

I leave you with the words of one of the best Presidents our nation has ever had. He says, "ASK NOT WHAT YOUR COUNTRY CAN DO FOR YOU, BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR YOU COUNTRY!"....John F. Kennedy.

Republicans didn't like him to well, so they had him killed. And why? Because they wanted to go to Vietnam. That's right! John F. Kennedy was killed by a conspiracy against him composed of Republican's who wanted to profit from war. And if you ever bothered to read history LES, you'd see that it's hardly ever the Liberals who rush us head-first into war; it's nearly always our oil driven, Zionist Conservatives of our Congress...THE GOP! Why don't you ask Donal Rumsfeld and Dick Cheny how much money they made from the war in Iraq?

As for your consistent Conservative concern about the national debt, you still don't get it. The Federal deficit will never get paid down, and cannot be paid down off the backs of the middle class or the public sector. You have to follow the money trail, and the fox hole leads right to the top 2% percent; the laze ones who refuse to work, and would rather have others work for them. They wouldn't know hard work and sacrifice if it bit them in the face. About the only work they know is playing golf and paying less taxes than their secretary.

Joe

[Brother Les]

And I certainly don't hear you complaining about the paychecks of our Political leaders. What exactly do THEY do that warrants them more than $150,000.00 annually, with FREE HEALTHCARE and a LIFE TIME PENSION for only serving 4 years as a politician.

I do not think anyone is worth a pay check over 100,000 a year. As for Health care it should be the very same as the Working person not subsidized and paid for by true tax payers. I call All of my Senators and Rep. at least once every other Week. Do you call yours?


What's so sad about you LES is that you are acting as though the deficit, which you seem to be so worried about, which has nothing to do with your pay or my pay, should be balanced off of the backs of the middle class and the poor! This is very selfish, unwise, and illogical. You can't squeeze water from a rock, but you can get plenty of water of damned up lakes (our corporations); the ones who EXTORT profits for a living.

You may not have realized it Joe, but I have never said such a thing. I said that it IS BEYOND Payable already.... It Can NEVER BE REPAID. What then IS THE Solution? The National Debt Must Be Repudiated. Wiped off The Books as a Fraud from the Fed Reserve for have NO Real Assests to Back their claim.


And by the way. I've been given a job offer as a civilian employee doing the same thing I'm doing now (managing and scheduling maintenance) and if I get this job, it will pay more than what I've earned as an active duty member, WITH health care, and a pension plan. So guess what LES. Shut up and pay your taxes, or get the heck out of my country, you dehumanized waste of oxygen! Your comments and ideology are worse than a moth eaten rag soaked in cow feces!

Just goes to show Joe.... you don't know me at all. I am a Blue Dog Democrat and am a Nationalist. I go by the words of George Washington to stay out of foriegn entanglements.


Republicans didn't like him (John F. Kennedy) to well, so they had him killed. Jackie O. said she thought that it was Johnson (Democrat) that was involved in his death.


Joe
I work on a multimillion dollar aircraft with bundles of technology, designed by corporations who are paid TAX DOLLARS. And it took me years to gain experience to work on America's best fighter jet; the F-16 Fighting Falcon.

Well lets look at some of those Rich corporations that you are protesting against. I own stock in none of these War Companies. How many men, women and children have you helped kill Joe? Do you sign your bombs....'from Joe with Love'? Shooting fish in a barrel is a lot of fun for you, is it not? What kind of Honar is that? Should you be charged as a war criminal? George Bush and Dick Cheny have been. They can not go to many countries because there are warrents out for their arrest. Are you on that list of baby killers, too? You have miss characterized so much, Joe, now it is your turn. Because I am one of those TAX Payers (Government Employees pay no taxes) and I am disappointed at the way MY money is being used.


WAR IS BUSINESS !



These companies are ranked in descending order of the value of their US military contracts in fiscal year 2010.

Most of these companies have a dossier on the site. Click through to read more about each company and contribute your own research.

LOCKHEED MARTIN CORPORATION $31,348,453,590.56
THE BOEING COMPANY $20,604,690,106.84
NORTHROP GRUMMAN CORPORATION $18,293,375,394.47
GENERAL DYNAMICS CORPORATION $15,662,063,160.18
RAYTHEON COMPANY $15,332,423,921.76
UNITED TECHNOLOGIES CORPORATION $7,047,569,734.83
L-3 COMMUNICATIONS HOLDINGS INC $6,841,410,117.06
BAE SYSTEMS PLC $6,704,063,086.99
OSHKOSH TRUCK CORPORATION $6,379,043,578.38
KBR INC $4,635,422,288.62
SAIC INC $4,338,700,254.84
GENERAL ELECTRIC COMPANY $3,442,880,553.04
HUMANA INC $3,437,897,069.91
HEALTH NET INC $2,833,980,613.12
COMPUTER SCIENCES CORPORATION $2,752,215,384.27
ITT CORPORATION $2,740,731,493.44
MACANDREWS & FORBES HOLDINGS INC $2,726,138,648.04
TRIWEST HEALTHCARE ALLIANCE CORP $2,672,212,524.42
BELL BOEING JOINT PROJECT OFFICE $2,620,340,065.85
BOOZ ALLEN HAMILTON INC $2,272,314,245.36
AGILITY $2,010,685,577.45
ROYAL DUTCH SHELL PLC $1,905,472,233.56
DRS TECHNOLOGIES INC $1,884,448,151.22
URS CORPORATION $1,838,845,209.24
HONEYWELL INTERNATIONAL INC $1,831,554,927.97
THE BAHRAIN PETROLEUM COMPANY BSC (CLOSED) $1,754,513,643.69
ALLIANT TECHSYSTEMS INC $1,751,511,169.95
MASSACHUSETTS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY $1,748,121,168.52
BP PLC $1,691,945,021.04
CACI INTERNATIONAL INC $1,646,613,384.74
BECHTEL GROUP INC $1,604,352,843.78
VERITAS CAPITAL MANAGEMENT II LLC $1,548,270,236.18
FEDERAL EXPRESS CHARTER PROGRAM TEAM ARRANGEMENT $1,505,847,350.42
HARRIS CORPORATION $1,442,080,726.13
HENSEL PHELPS CONSTRUCTION CO $1,371,398,204.77
GENERAL ATOMIC TECHNOLOGIES CORPORATION $1,346,105,622.43
EVERGREEN INTERNATIONAL AIRLINES INC $1,322,675,791.37
INTERNATIONAL MILITARY AND GOVERMENT LLC $1,317,741,892.34
ELECTRONIC DATA SYSTEMS CORPORATION $1,297,572,492.09
TEXTRON INC $1,275,116,557.21
AMERISOURCEBERGEN CORPORATION $1,262,162,351.55
ROCKWELL COLLINS INC $1,193,112,636.66
CERBERUS CAPITAL MANAGEMENT II LP $1,184,223,787.35
INTERNATIONAL OIL TRADING CO LIMITED $1,178,743,763.29
VALERO ENERGY CORPORATION $1,049,289,818.27
MCKESSON CORPORATION $1,025,767,231.80
HAWKER BEECHCRAFT INC $1,015,249,513.11
GULF INTRACOASTAL CONSTRUCTORS A JOINT VENTURE $963,520,252.00
ROLLS-ROYCE GROUP PLC $949,963,923.54
THE SHAW GROUP INC $930,211,876.56
SUPREME FOODSERVICE AG $912,510,126.47
DELL INC $898,765,660.98
JACOBS ENGINEERING GROUP INC $889,096,722.15
EDO CORPORATION $879,866,267.49
THE MITRE CORPORATION $797,001,344.88
THE AEROSPACE CORPORATION $791,347,982.62
SK ENERGY CO LTD $760,801,383.08
ANTHEM HEALTH OF INDIANA INC $750,304,988.85
CLARK ENTERPRISES INC $747,985,883.96
VSE CORPORATION $744,048,371.04
FLUOR CORPORATION $731,234,591.40
SIERRA NEVADA CORPORATION $697,117,133.64
BECHTEL MARINE PROPULSION CORPORATION $692,690,984.67
KONGSBERG GRUPPEN ASA $677,349,285.05
CHUGACH ALASKA CORP $675,361,594.19
CARDINAL HEALTH INC $663,387,605.20
MANTECH INTERNATIONAL CORPORATION $642,834,350.86
FORCE PROTECTION INC $618,642,902.91
THE WALSH GROUP LTD $616,238,630.08
HOPKINS JOHNS UNIVERSITY $603,612,650.53
COMBAT SUPPORT ASSOCIATES $579,957,228.00
ARINC MANAGEMENT CORPORATION $569,633,895.36
AFOGNAK NATIVE CORPORATION $566,781,985.18
M A MORTENSON COMPANIES INC $565,827,089.55
ATLANTIC DIVING SUPPLY INC $560,813,064.51
SYRACUSE RESEARCH CORP $543,968,722.53
PETROMAX REFINING COMPANY LLC $539,735,942.55
GOVERNMENT OF CANADA $534,792,837.52
SIERRA MILITARY HEALTH SERVICES LLC $527,348,655.04
GOODRICH CORPORATION $518,083,498.70
B P WEST COAST PRODUCTS L L C $516,830,010.38
CHM HILL COMPANIES LTD $498,159,352.86
COMTECH TELECOMMUNICATIONS CORP $496,368,924.69
HOCHTIEF AG $485,832,520.34
S-OIL CORPORATION $481,968,023.04
SK CHEMICALS CO LTD $479,988,184.81
CUBIC CORPORATION $476,609,936.65
EXXON MOBIL CORPORATION $471,115,672.12
INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS MACHINES CORPORATION $467,511,686.85
BATTELLE MEMORIAL INSTITUTE $464,123,578.91
HELLFIRE SYSTEMS LLC $454,187,872.77
THE SUNDT COMPANIES INC $450,807,416.28
THE CHARLES STARK DRAPER LABORATORY INC $439,499,353.34
CONOCOPHILLIPS $433,007,454.05
QATAR FUEL CO (WOQOD) $431,866,129.65
HARPER CONSTRUCTION COMPANY INC $427,322,377.01
CRITICAL SOLUTIONS INTERNATIONAL INC $423,862,762.81
KRAFT FOODS INC $417,894,291.89
GREAT LAKES DREDGE & DOCK CORPORATION $408,316,991.11
BALFOUR BEATTY PLC $401,211,448.73
TYSON FOODS INC $399,900,586.39
AT&T INC $396,793,006.42
AEGIS MISSION ESSENTIAL PERSONNEL LLC $375,954,610.00
SENSOR TECHNOLOGIES INC $365,132,972.07
STANLEY INC $358,883,218.17
TETRA TECH INC $358,379,711.43
EUROPEAN AERONAUTIC DEFENCE AND SPACE COMPANY EADS NV $357,490,743.23
GS HOLDINGS CORP $357,328,096.03
LAKESHORE ENGINEERING SERVICES INC $357,197,263.29
INNOVATIVE TECHNICAL SOLUTIONS INC $350,950,698.39
UNITED INDUSTRIAL CORPORATION $349,411,935.47
NCI INC $341,376,444.70
THE WHITING-TURNER CONTRACTING COMPANY $340,096,057.86
SRA INTERNATIONAL INC $338,539,476.61
EYAK CORPORATION $335,417,347.99
MANHATTAN TORCON A JOINT VENTURE $333,000,000.00
HIGHMARK INC $330,113,575.86
INTERPUBLIC GROUP OF COMPANIES INC $328,435,469.49
BALFOUR-WALTON A JOINT VENTURE $323,692,081.00
WYLE LABORATORIES INC $318,612,613.93
THE PROCTER & GAMBLE COMPANY $313,623,723.88
AECOM TECHNOLOGY CORPORATION $310,156,464.47
UNITED PARCEL SERVICE INC $305,869,718.55
AEROSPACE TESTING ALLIANCE $297,384,703.72
MOTOR OIL (HELLAS) CORINTH REFINERIES SA $296,823,683.52
NISHIMATSU CONSTRUCTION CO LTD $295,265,390.95
TESORO CORPORATION $292,297,034.31
ACCENTURE LTD $289,291,063.66
JVYS $287,798,907.06
AUSTAL USA LLC $287,421,129.76
CALUMET SALES COMPANY INCORPORATED $283,405,296.00
WORLD WIDE TECHNOLOGY HOLDING CO INC $281,908,234.14
BRISTOL BAY NATIVE CORPORATION $281,425,998.24
HEWLETT-PACKARD COMPANY $275,492,467.77
RO DEFENCE PROJECTS LTD $275,271,968.65
KUWAIT PETROLEUM CORPORATION (WESTERN HEMISPHERE) K S C $274,394,957.20
VH HOLDINGS INC $274,236,936.20
ARCTIC SLOPE REGIONAL CORPORATION $273,093,199.77
PLACID REFINING COMPANY LLC $272,566,948.00
CATERPILLER INC $271,145,477.63
QINETIQ LTD $270,606,130.99
DOCUMENT AND PACKAGING BROKERS INC $270,257,821.88
DATAPATH INC $269,371,792.97
VERITAS CAPITAL FUND II LP $268,852,413.05
EXPRESS SCRIPTS INC $268,530,268.07
CLARK / HUNT JOINT VENTURE $267,787,600.74
SMITHS GROUP PLC $267,339,298.51
NANA REGIONAL CORPORATION $263,663,695.31
ALION SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY CORPORATION $262,653,369.33
WESTON SOLUTIONS HOLDINGS INC $260,407,439.12

http://www.warisbusiness.com/top-150-warcorps/

[TheForgiven]

Well lets look at some of those Rich corporations that you are protesting against. I own stock in none of these War Companies. How many men, women and children have you helped kill Joe? Do you sign your bombs....'from Joe with Love'? Shooting fish in a barrel is a lot of fun for you, is it not? What kind of Honar is that? Should you be charged as a war criminal? George Bush and Dick Cheny have been. They can not go to many countries because there are warrents out for their arrest. Are you on that list of baby killers, too? You have miss characterized so much, Joe, now it is your turn. Because I am one of those TAX Payers (Government Employees pay no taxes) and I am disappointed at the way MY money is being used.


WAR IS BUSINESS !

Hmmmm? So now I'm a baby killer because I repair an aircraft that's designed to kill. Well it may be designed to kill LES, but the killing that takes place in some or most cases, protects YOUR freedom LES.

You spoiled snot! Who gave you your freedom? Did you even earn it? Did you put your life on the line to protect your country? Did you serve as a policemen to protect the American's society?

And this BS you keep saying about us not paying taxes, the last time I checked, my LES (Leave and Earning Statement) shows that I pay, both Federal and State taxes. I complete a 1040 every year to file taxes. So do I pay taxes? YES! And how dare you act as though your tax payments are supply something that you seem to deem as worthless. You went to school as a child right? Who do you think paid for that? You awake to safety in a free country? Who do you think paid for that?

I can't believe I'm even discussing this with you.

So forget it. You are very offensive, and I'm ashamed that my brothers and sisters who signed the dotted line to serve and protect the Constitution, and to obey the orders of those appointed over us, and you spit on them as though they did not deserve anything.

So although I respected you as a Preterist, I fully reject you as an American citizen with no pride, honor, or commitment for service to MY country. Taxes are vital to any form of government, and God accepts is. That's why Jesus said, "Render to Caesar, the things that are Caesars.." Jesus wants you to pay what is required by society, but also to pay what He requires of His people. At no time did God ever say, "Don't pay your taxes!"

Do I think taxes are too high? Yes, but again, very necessary. At the same time, I agree that our tax dollars are being spent on wild things. But there's nothing we can do about that.

And do I call my Senator's once a year? Perhaps you'd like to actually meet one LES. I've dined with Political leaders. I shook the hand of the former President of the United States. I've shook the hands of many prominent figures from the Department of Defense, as well as our Congress. And so I'm very proud at my service, which came at the cost of the faithful non-complaining tax payers, who paid all of us to perform a service that they themselves would not dare do.

So LES, when you go to sleep tonight. I'd like you to consider something. While you're laying in your soft little comfortable bed, somewhere overseas, in a cold or hot desert, exists several thousand soldiers laying on cots with wool blankets, tents, eating meals right out of a plastic pouch. And within those same regions, the sound of bullets whistling past their ears, or a explosion from an IED occurring right outside of their tents. They're not doing that to please you, or anyone else, but themselves. But what they do, demands your respect. And if you can't do that, and give them the simple honor of respecting them, instead of bitching about them, then you sir, are not worthy of being a citizen of this country. I've been foreigners who became American citizens, and some of which who also joined the military, because they know how tough it is in other countries. But apparently, you must have been raised by mommy, and have never set off offshore; don't know, but don't care.

I'm very saddened to have met the likes of you. You disgust me, and at this point, I'd rather associate with a million Futurist's, than with someone who discredit the military, and treats them like waste of your tax dollars. War is hell, and nobody ever wants war. But if you want to blame anyone, blame God who permits it. Reading the Old Testament is filled with commands from God to the Israeli's to kill even children when they entered into the promised land. I hate war too, especially those who profit from it. But I also know that war is necessary to protect our national security. And the reasons why our threats are so low, compared to the days of the cold war LES, is because of the sacrifices from the brave men and women that both Republican and Democrats pay tribute to.

Lastly, if I knew where you lived, I would come get you myself, snatch you and drag you all the way to D.C., and FORCE you read every single name written on the memorial wall! But as it is, you don't even deserve that. Let's just hope that one day, a terrorist doesn't get to you. Not saying I wish that, but if that ever did happen, you'd be crying for protection then...and who do you think would come to your rescue? The ones who swore on oath to protect our society.

Good luck.

Joe

P.S. You may reply, but I will not read it. As for the others, I will continue to discuss these things.

[Tomret]

Les and Tomret,

I feel your pain. Great posts by both of you.

Les, Yields on Italian 10-year debt jumped to 7.4%, a record for the euro era and a level at which other EU members, notably Ireland, Portugal and Greece have required bailouts.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/no-solution-europe-stocks-tumble-italian-yields-surge-191241349.html


Just as an interesting aside. During the Great Depression, after the first leg down on the stock market, the market rose almost 70%. Guess what precipitated the second leg down? You guessed it! Europe defaulting.

This time around people are thinking the DOW will most probably crash to 3000-5000.

Have we learned our lessons? Have a look at this link to see what the Government did, that caused the Great Depression and what they did to recover. History repeating itself?

Great Myths of the Great Depression http://www.fee.org/articles/great-myths-of-the-great-depression/ (http://www.fee.org/articles/great-myths-of-the-great-depression/)

The Great, Great,Great,Great Depression

To properly understand the events of the time, it is factually appropriate to view the Great Depression as not one, but four consecutive downturns rolled into one. These four 'phases' are:[2]

I. Monetary Policy and the Business Cycle
II. The Disintegration of the World Economy
III. The New Deal
IV. The Wagner Act

All the best,
Rick

Thanks for that 'Great Myths' article, I've saved it to favorites. Seemed a bit lengthy at first, but considering the info in it, actually a very concise record of the period.

[heb13-13]

Thanks for that 'Great Myths' article, I've saved it to favorites. Seemed a bit lengthy at first, but considering the info in it, actually a very concise record of the period.

I thought the same thing when I started reading it, but then could not stop as it confirmed some other things I had read through the years.

Rick

[TheForgiven]

I thought the same thing when I started reading it, but then could not stop as it confirmed some other things I had read through the years.

Rick

Great article, but too much to digest. For all we know, his article was nothing more than a defense on Capitalsim clouded by excessive explanation cloudiness.

I'll make it easy for you. The economy is based on money. Money is what determines if an economy rises or falls. When money is spent, the economy does well. A popular saying is, "if you build it, they will buy it". This is very true. People these days buy a car, keep it for 3 to 8 years, and trade it for a new one, even if there was nothing wrong with the older car. But if we decided to stop buying cars, the car-makers would be forced into slowing down car production.

It's not a difficult thing to understand. All you have to do is follow the money. Why is our economy so slow today? Because disposable income of the "spenders" is not high enough to sustain today's market place. When disposable income is too low, the "spenders" are forced into relying on credit. This is where job-security comes into play. If consumers feel threatened by the job-market, and are afraid of losing their job, they'll cut-back on financial spending, and set what little cash they have in the bank. The banks, not liking the "spenders" to save their money, resort to other tactics to get money from the pockets of the "spenders". This is where "Hedge Funds" come into play. Hedge funds are stocks manipulated by the market where a commodity rises and falls at the behest of the speculators. When prices are low enough, RICH BOYS buy up stocks as long as they know they will make a definite profit. Oil is one such commodity that the fat cats know will benefit them.

Just follow the money, and you'll see why the economy is bad. Too much wealth is sitting in the hands of only 2% percent within the American population. And because they're not spending the money, everyone below them are limited by the power and control the top 2% percent posses.

So without long articles, ridiculous explanations about the stock market crash, all you have to do is follow the money. Or as some would say, "follow the rich white man". :lol: You guys may not like it, but I don't believe economics is so mysterious for the average mind to comprehend. All you have to do is follow the money trail, see where it's pooling up, and then examine if perhaps this was caused by price gouging, poor wages, excessive tax evasion, too many tax breaks, foreign trade and the exploitation of poverty-stricken nations (cheap labor), and so forth.

Theirs really no such thing as hard work equating to wealth. Vast amounts of wealth can only be achieved from "getting one over the other". It means, a lot of people simply got screwed.

Capitalism is a terrible system because it advocates control and poverty. Capitalism relies on poverty in order for it to sustain its control. If everyone were rich, then capitalism would not exist; they'd call this socialism.

Anyone who accepts a type of economical system that's designed to inflict poverty, enforce economical control, and legal enslavement, are in essence, accepting Corporate communism; you either play by their rules, or find yourself living in the streets!" That, in a nut shell, is the essence of Capitalism.

Joe

[Brother Les]

Les and Tomret,

I feel your pain. Great posts by both of you.

Les, Yields on Italian 10-year debt jumped to 7.4%, a record for the euro era and a level at which other EU members, notably Ireland, Portugal and Greece have required bailouts.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/no-solution-europe-stocks-tumble-italian-yields-surge-191241349.html


Just as an interesting aside. During the Great Depression, after the first leg down on the stock market, the market rose almost 70%. Guess what precipitated the second leg down? You guessed it! Europe defaulting.

This time around people are thinking the DOW will most probably crash to 3000-5000.

Have we learned our lessons? Have a look at this link to see what the Government did, that caused the Great Depression and what they did to recover. History repeating itself?

Great Myths of the Great Depression http://www.fee.org/articles/great-myths-of-the-great-depression/ (http://www.fee.org/articles/great-myths-of-the-great-depression/)

The Great, Great,Great,Great Depression

To properly understand the events of the time, it is factually appropriate to view the Great Depression as not one, but four consecutive downturns rolled into one. These four “phases” are:[2]

I. Monetary Policy and the Business Cycle
II. The Disintegration of the World Economy
III. The New Deal
IV. The Wagner Act

All the best,
Rick

Thank-you for your post Rick.


Ben Bernanke was brought into the Chairmanship of the Federal Reserve because he was a 'Scholar' of the 'Great Depression'. I read a speach of his where he said that the 'Fed' helped cause the 'Depression' by cutting off credit during the inflationary time of the late 1920s. People had over borowed and over spent already. Slowing credit and raising rates did seem to be the right thing to do at the time. As the article you posted stated, if nothing was really changed in Washington and by the Fed, the cycle would have only lasted about 3 years. This is a natural cycle in our debt based monetary system. But the government did get heavely involved in social structuring with bad consequeses. The National debt was in a percentage rate as it is today and could have been handled. Tarrifes and duties (I believe) are the way to go, but as seen in the artcle congress went to an exstreme that killed imports and exports.

In walks Ben Bernanke, in the middle of a Housing (artifically created) housing bubble and a dervative melt down of speculates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_(finance) . His view point was to do the opposite of the 1920s Fed and force the interest rates to stay low (which has been too low for almost a decade) and flood the economy with cheap money and also driving down the value of all dollars used. Ben Bernanke stated that deflation is the enemy and (slight) inflation is our 'friend'. What the population failed to see in this statement is that he was talking TO and For Bankers and Their economy, not the general populations economy as a whole. Even with the flood of the economy with cheap money (cheap for Bankers but not for borrowers) from QE 1,2,3 (yes there was a 3, by a different name) Bankers are reluctant to led to a population that has a large chance of defaulting.

As we can see so very plainly, All of Europe has slipped into a death spiral of their economies. A strange side bar note in all of this is that the Vatican is calling for a 'World' currency and a 'committe' to over see a 'true' world Bank. The Vatican knows the game and wants to be in the middle of it. This happened during the first Great Depression and this one is far worse. Greece and Italy... all of the 'PIGS'... know that there is no hope on righting their economic ships (why polish brass on a sinking ship) and the only way out is to Repudiate their debt as not being lawful. The European Banks will want a 'Default Bankrupcy' and go to the European Court in order to try to squeeze more assests out of these countries. The Bankers will Fail to prove their case to the courts. Many Bankers in the U.S.,today that are forclosing on houses are stopped by the Courts because these Banks Can Not Prove true ownership of the Debt of the consumer on each individual house. (These debts were sold by banks and bundled into derivatives of a huge pile of notes and it is almost impossaible to single out each individual house and the terms of each) With no proof of debt ownership by the banks then the foreclosure can not go forward. The National News will not publish this as they want to keep the population Unenformed of their rights.

With the European Banksters not able to prove viable owenership of the bond debts from the individual countries, these debts will be completely wipes off the books. If you will recall, two weeks ago, the banks told Greece that they would reduce Greeces debt by 50%. To the average person, a 'reduction' like that would sound like a god sent and would have taken the 'deal'..... The Bankers 'Needed' to keep the hook in Greece because if it goes.... all of Eruope goes Belly up. Also the Bankers had 'Created' most of the bond money out of 'thin air'.... Reducing nothing by 50% is not too hard to do. What they Really wanted Greece to continue to do was to Pay the 'intererst'. The interest is where the Banksters make their HARD Asset income.

This is where I would agree with Biblical Banking. NO Usery money system.



Joe. This thread has gotten to personal. I apoligize to you, for statements that have gotton way out of line. If you had read my posts with a cool head, you may have seen that I wrote that I am a supporter of All of our fighting men, from Colonal on down. These are the men that carry the water and get done what needs to be done. Above that rank, it turns political. When politicals gets involved bad things happen to good men. I don't like that. I have stated it before.... Bring our troops home and turn the desert to glass. Poloticians do not want to win wars, they want control and power. We are all pawns in this game playing our part.

Blessings to you

[Brother Les]

Aticle posted this morning on http://www.infowars.com/a-financial-nightmare-for-italy-the-yield-curve-for-italian-bonds-is-turning-upside-down/



A Financial Nightmare For Italy: The Yield Curve For Italian Bonds Is Turning Upside Down


The Economic Collapse
Thursday, November 10, 2011

What we are all watching unfold right now is a complete and total financial nightmare for Italy. Italian bond yields are soaring to incredibly dangerous levels, and now the yield curve for Italian bonds is turning upside down. So what does that mean?


Normally, government debt securities that have a longer maturity pay a higher interest rate. There is typically more risk when you hold a bond for an extended period of time, so investors normally demand a higher return for holding debt over longer time periods. But when investors feel as though a major economic downturn or a substantial financial crisis is coming, the yield on short-term bonds will often rise above the yield for long-term bonds. This happened to Greece, to Ireland and to Portugal and all three of them ended up needing bailouts. Now it is happening to Italy and Spain may follow shortly, but the EU cannot afford to bail out either of them. An inverted yield curve is a major red flag. Unfortunately, there does not seem to be much hope that there is going to be a solution to this European debt crisis any time soon.

We are witnessing a crisis of confidence in the European financial system. All over Europe bond yields went soaring today. When I finished my article aboutthe financial crisis in Italy on Tuesday night, the yield on 10 year Italian bonds was at 6.7 percent. I awoke today to learn that it had risen to 7.2 percent.

But even more importantly, the yield on 5 year Italian bonds is now sitting at about 7.5 percent, and the yield on 2 year Italian bonds is about 7.2 percent.

The yield curve for Italian bonds is in the process of turning upside down.

If you want to see a frightening chart, just look at this chart that shows what has happened to 2 year Italian bonds recently.

Do phrases like “heading straight up” and “going through the roof” come to mind?

This comes despite rampant Italian bond buying by the European Central Bank. CNBC is reporting that the European Central Bank was aggressively buying up 2 year Italian bonds and 10 year Italian bonds on Wednesday.

So what does it say when even open market manipulation by the European Central Bank is not working?

Of course some in the financial community are saying that the European Central Bank is not going far enough. Some prominent financial professionals are even calling on the European Central Bank to buy up a trillion euros worth of European bonds in order to soothe the markets.

Part of the reason why Italian bond yields rose so much on Wednesday was that London clearing house LCH Clearnet raised margin requirements on Italian government bonds.

But that doesn’t explain why bond yields all over Europe were soaring.

The reality is that bond yields for Spain, Belgium, Austria and France also skyrocketed on Wednesday.

This is a crisis that is rapidly engulfing all of Europe.

But at this point, bond yields in Europe are still way too low. European leadersshattered confidence when they announced that they were going to ask private Greek bondholders to take a 50% haircut. So now rational investors have got to be asking themselves why they would want to hold any sovereign European debt at all.

There is no way in the world that any rational investor should invest in European bonds at these levels.

Are you kidding me?

If there is a very good chance that private bondholders will be forced to take huge haircuts on these bonds at some point in the future then they should be demanding much, much higher returns than this.

But if bond yields continue to go up in Europe, we are going to quickly come to a moment of very great crisis.

The following is what Rod Smyth of Riverfront Investment Group recently told his clients about the situation that is unfolding in Italy….

“In our view, 7% is a ‘tipping point’ for any large debt-laden country and is the level at which Greece, Portugal and Ireland were forced to accept assistance”

Other analysts are speaking of a “point of no return”. For example, check out what a report that was just released by Barclays Capital had to say….

“At this point, Italy may be beyond the point of no return. While reform may be necessary, we doubt that Italian economic reforms alone will be sufficient to rehabilitate the Italian credit and eliminate the possibility of a debilitating confidence crisis that could overwhelm the positive effects of a reform agenda, however well conceived and implemented.”

But unlike Greece, Ireland and Portugal, the EU simply cannot afford to bail out Italy.

Italy’s national debt is approximately 2.7 times larger than the national debts of Greece, Ireland and Portugal put together.

Plus, as I noted earlier, Spain is heading down the exact same road as Italy.

Europe has simply piled up way, way too much debt and now they are going to pay the price.

Global financial markets are very nervous right now. You can almost smell the panic in the air. As a CNBC article posted on Wednesday noted, one prominent think tank actually believes that there is a 65 percent chance that we will see a “banking crisis” by the end of November….

“There is a 65 percent chance of a banking crisis between November 23-26 following a Greek default and a run on the Italian banking system, according to analysts at Exclusive Analysis, a research firm that focuses on global risks.”

Personally, I believe that particular think tank is being way too pessimistic, but this just shows how much fear is out there right now.

It seems more likely to me that the European debt crisis will really unravel once we get into 2012. And when it does, it just won’t be a few countries that feel the pain.

For example, when Italy goes down many of their neighbors will be in a massive amount of trouble as well. As you can see from this chart, France has massive exposure to Italian debt.

Just like we saw a few years ago, a financial crisis can be very much like a game of dominoes. Once the financial dominoes start tumbling, it will be hard to predict where the damage will end.

Some believe that what is coming is going to be even worse than the financial nightmare of a few years ago. For example, the following is what renowned investor Jim Rogers recently told CNBC….

“In 2002 it was bad, in 2008 it was worse and 2012 or 2013 is going to be worse still – be careful”

Rogers says that the reason the next crisis is going to be so bad is because debt levels are so much higher than they were back then….

“Last time, America quadrupled its debt. The system is much more extended now, and America cannot quadruple its debt again. Greece cannot double its debt again. The next time around is going to be much worse”

So what is the “endgame” for this crisis?

German Chancellor Angela Merkel is saying that fundamental changes are needed….

“It is time for a breakthrough to a new Europe”

So what kind of a “breakthrough” is she talking about? Well, Merkel says that the ultimate solution to this crisis is going to require even tighter integrationfor Europe….

“That will mean more Europe, not less Europe”

As I have written about previously, the political and financial elite of Europe are not going to give up on the EU because of a few bumps in the road. In fact, at some point they are likely to propose a “United States of Europe” as the ultimate solution to this crisis.

But being more like the United States is not necessarily a solution to anything.

The U.S. is 15 trillion dollars in debt and extreme poverty is spreading like wildfire in this nation.

No, the real problem is government debt and the central banks of the western world which act as perpetual debt machines.

By not objecting to central banks and demanding change, those of us living in the western world have allowed ourselves to become enslaved to gigantic mountains of debt. Unless something dramatically changes, our children and our grandchildren will suffer under the weight of this debt for as long as they live.

Don’t we owe future generations something better than this?

[heb13-13]

Thank-you for your post Rick.


Ben Bernanke was brought into the Chairmanship of the Federal Reserve because he was a 'Scholar' of the 'Great Depression'. I read a speach of his where he said that the 'Fed' helped cause the 'Depression' by cutting off credit during the inflationary time of the late 1920s. People had over borowed and over spent already. Slowing credit and raising rates did seem to be the right thing to do at the time. As the article you posted stated, if nothing was really changed in Washington and by the Fed, the cycle would have only lasted about 3 years. This is a natural cycle in our debt based monetary system. But the government did get heavely involved in social structuring with bad consequeses. The National debt was in a percentage rate as it is today and could have been handled. Tarrifes and duties (I believe) are the way to go, but as seen in the artcle congress went to an exstreme that killed imports and exports.

In walks Ben Bernanke, in the middle of a Housing (artifically created) housing bubble and a dervative melt down of speculates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_(finance) . His view point was to do the opposite of the 1920s Fed and force the interest rates to stay low (which has been too low for almost a decade) and flood the economy with cheap money and also driving down the value of all dollars used. Ben Bernanke stated that deflation is the enemy and (slight) inflation is our 'friend'. What the population failed to see in this statement is that he was talking TO and For Bankers and Their economy, not the general populations economy as a whole. Even with the flood of the economy with cheap money (cheap for Bankers but not for borrowers) from QE 1,2,3 (yes there was a 3, by a different name) Bankers are reluctant to led to a population that has a large chance of defaulting.

As we can see so very plainly, All of Europe has slipped into a death spiral of their economies. A strange side bar note in all of this is that the Vatican is calling for a 'World' currency and a 'committe' to over see a 'true' world Bank. The Vatican knows the game and wants to be in the middle of it. This happened during the first Great Depression and this one is far worse. Greece and Italy... all of the 'PIGS'... know that there is no hope on righting their economic ships (why polish brass on a sinking ship) and the only way out is to Repudiate their debt as not being lawful. The European Banks will want a 'Default Bankrupcy' and go to the European Court in order to try to squeeze more assests out of these countries. The Bankers will Fail to prove their case to the courts. Many Bankers in the U.S.,today that are forclosing on houses are stopped by the Courts because these Banks Can Not Prove true ownership of the Debt of the consumer on each individual house. (These debts were sold by banks and bundled into derivatives of a huge pile of notes and it is almost impossaible to single out each individual house and the terms of each) With no proof of debt ownership by the banks then the foreclosure can not go forward. The National News will not publish this as they want to keep the population Unenformed of their rights.

With the European Banksters not able to prove viable owenership of the bond debts from the individual countries, these debts will be completely wipes off the books. If you will recall, two weeks ago, the banks told Greece that they would reduce Greeces debt by 50%. To the average person, a 'reduction' like that would sound like a god sent and would have taken the 'deal'..... The Bankers 'Needed' to keep the hook in Greece because if it goes.... all of Eruope goes Belly up. Also the Bankers had 'Created' most of the bond money out of 'thin air'.... Reducing nothing by 50% is not too hard to do. What they Really wanted Greece to continue to do was to Pay the 'intererst'. The interest is where the Banksters make their HARD Asset income.

This is where I would agree with Biblical Banking. NO Usery money system.



Joe. This thread has gotten to personal. I apoligize to you, for statements that have gotton way out of line. If you had read my posts with a cool head, you may have seen that I wrote that I am a supporter of All of our fighting men, from Colonal on down. These are the men that carry the water and get done what needs to be done. Above that rank, it turns political. When politicals gets involved bad things happen to good men. I don't like that. I have stated it before.... Bring our troops home and turn the desert to glass. Poloticians do not want to win wars, they want control and power. We are all pawns in this game playing our part.

Blessings to you

Very good, Les. I agree with your view of the historical events. I was waiting for Uncle Ben and QE3, and am not surprised that it has taken place in some other form. So now, I will look for QE4. Hope I don't miss that one, too!!! :lol:

All the best to you,
Rick

[TheForgiven]

Joe. This thread has gotten to personal. I apoligize to you, for statements that have gotton way out of line. If you had read my posts with a cool head, you may have seen that I wrote that I am a supporter of All of our fighting men, from Colonal on down. These are the men that carry the water and get done what needs to be done. Above that rank, it turns political. When politicals gets involved bad things happen to good men. I don't like that. I have stated it before.... Bring our troops home and turn the desert to glass. Poloticians do not want to win wars, they want control and power. We are all pawns in this game playing our part.

Blessings to you

Nearly all of us would agree with you LES. Unfortunately, our country has a military that's command and controlled by elected officials. They are imperfect beings subjected to a huge realm of responsibilities. That, mixed with power and greed, clouds their judgments, especially when religion is involved.

All of us agree that the middle east should be leveled with a huge mushroom cloud. But our country is doing the best that it can to fight a clean war, per the standards of the Geneva convention, so as not to set a poor example for other nations to follow. As much as I'd like to see all of the middle east leveled into a field of glass, it just wouldn't be right for us to do such a thing. That's why I, to this day, feel sorry for what happened to Japan. Sure they deserved to get their butts kicked, but not like that.

But thanks for your apologies; they are graciously accepted. And I too apologize for my threats towards you. Both of us know that this is unbecoming of a Christian, and we both have set very poor examples of Christian behavior. And I commend you for making the first gracious move.

God bless, and may he forgive us both of our anger.

Joe

P.S. On a side note, trying to over examine the reasons for economical failure with theories and studies is not necessary. This only makes good reasons to provide excuses for the collapse of the economy. The nations debt is a big issue, but the federal deficit, although bad, is not life threatening. When one wants to see why the economy is suffering, all you have to do is follow the money trail, and see where it's piling up. And as you can see, the money trial points right to Wall Street. The top 2% percent make most of their profits from Wall Street, and not enough money is trickling down. Giving them more tax breaks is not going to increase jobs; we've heard that lie for almost 10 years. The only way to get the economy moving again is for the wealthy corporations to start paying higher wages, and hiring more people, as well as bring back jobs from over seas. The United States cannot compete against China's low-income. It would be possible, but we'd have to make adjustments from the top-down. Cost of living, cost of housing, and the cost of commerce. If all of that was brought down, THEN the American worker could lower their wages and compete against China. Until then, the American worker deserves better than what we got from Washington, and it's corporate backed funding.

Remember....just follow the money; that tells you all that you need to know.

[Tomret]

Income gap...disparity...despair...protests across the land...tax the greedy rich...tax corporations! What is needed is a voice of reason.

Ah, here's one now. Hear this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFArh9YQf6E&feature=related) state his opposition to Obama's tax increase plan. He also does not resent the success of the wealthy. :woah:

This written account (http://pumasunleashed.wordpress.com/2011/09/24/bill-clinton-rebukes-obama-%E2%80%93-don%E2%80%99t-raise-taxes/) also notes that as recently as 2009 Obama agreed that raising taxes in an economic downturn was a bad idea.

BTW Joe, on this 11-11-11 Veterans Day, I thank you and all who serve or have served. Glad to hear you have good prospect of a job continuing what you do in a civilian capacity. Best of luck in your retirement... and your re-enlistment if you follow your retirement pattern here! :winking0071:

[TheForgiven]

Income gap...disparity...despair...protests across the land...tax the greedy rich...tax corporations! What is needed is a voice of reason.


It's impossible to reason why a very small group of American's who abuse their wealth and power to oppress working class citizens of America. It is they who devalue labor, production, and good old fashioned hard work. It was they who started this war when they started pushing jobs overseas, and kicked the American worker to the poverty street, and then have the gall to blame their poverty on them. This is an example of class warfare, and on a hard working citizen suffered from the irresponsible actions of his corporate managers.

The voice of reason says, as Jesus would say, pay your workers far, treat them right, and the flood gates of blessing will be opened to you. Oppress them, then all that you do to them, you do to me. This is the voice of reason.


Ah, here's one now. Hear this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFArh9YQf6E&feature=related) state his opposition to Obama's tax increase plan. He also does not resent the success of the wealthy. :woah:

A bunch of noise. If they would pay higher wages, then taxing them would not be necessary as the middle class workers would be placed in a much higher tax bracket, thereby enable Uncle Sam to obtain tax revenue from the middle class. BUT because the very small few in America choose to hold-back the money they extorted in the first place, the government has not choice but to tax them. Big Oil is a perfect example. The price of gasoline was not driven by traditional "Supply and Demand" as they try to preach. Investigations revealed that they manipulated the market to fabricate a supply problem, in order to drive up prices. Their reason for wanting to do this, was the very same reason why the Bank of America wanted to charge fees on its customers; to generation higher profits in order to remain faithful to the share-holders. Big Oil drove up prices because big corporations are building hedge funds around oil, thus driving up prices so they could all profit huge. And yet we, the middle class workers, are supposed to take this kind of treatment from the rich? We're the ones being irrational? I don't think so. So we, using our voice, power, and vote, are hoping to remove the Republicans out of office so that Obama can press one and pass the Jobs Bill and get Public Service employee's back to work. It's an honorable thing what President Obama is doing.

And on a side note. Because the rich folks don't care about me, the only thing I care about them is their souls. Because right now, their soul and their fruit is very dry, much like a tree bearing no fruit. No fruit? Then the ax comes chopping down.


This written account (http://pumasunleashed.wordpress.com/2011/09/24/bill-clinton-rebukes-obama-%E2%80%93-don%E2%80%99t-raise-taxes/) also notes that as recently as 2009 Obama agreed that raising taxes in an economic downturn was a bad idea.

I watched an interview of Clinton not pleased with Obama when it comes to interest rates. One thing that Bill Clinton said when he took office, "get the interest rates up". High interest rates equates to higher taxes on dividends; hence, higher revenue. I do not agree with Clinton's tactics in this because that's one of the reasons why people went charge-card happy in the 90's, and ended up filing bankruptcy after 2000. That was the reason why George Bush enacted the new Bankruptcy law, so that people could no longer run away from their debts. My stance on that is if you file bankruptcy, then your debt should be wiped clean. If they still mandate that you pay back the loan, then there's no point in filing bankruptcy. The only thing that it does is removes interest payments, but there's already programs set-up for that kind of payment plan.


BTW Joe, on this 11-11-11 Veterans Day, I thank you and all who serve or have served. Glad to hear you have good prospect of a job continuing what you do in a civilian capacity. Best of luck in your retirement... and your re-enlistment if you follow your retirement pattern here! :winking0071:


Thank you so very much my friend. I have a few friends in the service who read this site, but they chose not to join because its Moderator is no longer a Christian. I tried to talk them into it, but they didn't want to join a non-christian site. :lol: Richard owes me one because he lost 4 new members because of that. :D Anyways, they are honored that you thank all of us for our service. And now, I salute you, the citizen of our great nation; struggling yes, but still the greatest land in the world.

God bless.

Joe

[Tomret]

It's impossible to reason why a very small group of American's who abuse their wealth and power to oppress working class citizens of America. It is they who devalue labor, production, and good old fashioned hard work. It was they who started this war when they started pushing jobs overseas, and kicked the American worker to the poverty street, and then have the gall to blame their poverty on them. This is an example of class warfare, and on a hard working citizen suffered from the irresponsible actions of his corporate managers.

The voice of reason says, as Jesus would say, pay your workers far, treat them right, and the flood gates of blessing will be opened to you. Oppress them, then all that you do to them, you do to me. This is the voice of reason.



A bunch of noise. If they would pay higher wages, then taxing them would not be necessary as the middle class workers would be placed in a much higher tax bracket, thereby enable Uncle Sam to obtain tax revenue from the middle class. BUT because the very small few in America choose to hold-back the money they extorted in the first place, the government has not choice but to tax them. Big Oil is a perfect example. The price of gasoline was not driven by traditional "Supply and Demand" as they try to preach. Investigations revealed that they manipulated the market to fabricate a supply problem, in order to drive up prices. Their reason for wanting to do this, was the very same reason why the Bank of America wanted to charge fees on its customers; to generation higher profits in order to remain faithful to the share-holders. Big Oil drove up prices because big corporations are building hedge funds around oil, thus driving up prices so they could all profit huge. And yet we, the middle class workers, are supposed to take this kind of treatment from the rich? We're the ones being irrational? I don't think so. So we, using our voice, power, and vote, are hoping to remove the Republicans out of office so that Obama can press one and pass the Jobs Bill and get Public Service employee's back to work. It's an honorable thing what President Obama is doing.

And on a side note. Because the rich folks don't care about me, the only thing I care about them is their souls. Because right now, their soul and their fruit is very dry, much like a tree bearing no fruit. No fruit? Then the ax comes chopping down.



I watched an interview of Clinton not pleased with Obama when it comes to interest rates. One thing that Bill Clinton said when he took office, "get the interest rates up". High interest rates equates to higher taxes on dividends; hence, higher revenue. I do not agree with Clinton's tactics in this because that's one of the reasons why people went charge-card happy in the 90's, and ended up filing bankruptcy after 2000. That was the reason why George Bush enacted the new Bankruptcy law, so that people could no longer run away from their debts. My stance on that is if you file bankruptcy, then your debt should be wiped clean. If they still mandate that you pay back the loan, then there's no point in filing bankruptcy. The only thing that it does is removes interest payments, but there's already programs set-up for that kind of payment plan.



Thank you so very much my friend. I have a few friends in the service who read this site, but they chose not to join because its Moderator is no longer a Christian. I tried to talk them into it, but they didn't want to join a non-christian site. :lol: Richard owes me one because he lost 4 new members because of that. :D Anyways, they are honored that you thank all of us for our service. And now, I salute you, the citizen of our great nation; struggling yes, but still the greatest land in the world.

God bless.

Joe

You are quite welcome. :welcome: As for the bulk of your post I won't address it since it is a repetition of your complaints. Plus I've been researching and working on a post off and on most of the day. Hoped to post it today but looks like it may be tomorrow. I think it will surprise you... if ye will receive it. :p

Tom (USAF 1965-1969)

[TheForgiven]

You are quite welcome. :welcome: As for the bulk of your post I won't address it since it is a repetition of your complaints. Plus I've been researching and working on a post off and on most of the day. Hoped to post it today but looks like it may be tomorrow. I think it will surprise you... if ye will receive it. :p

Tom (USAF 1965-1969)

Of course I'll read it, but much of it is unproven rhetoric and theories from the Republican side. All they're doing is trying to confuse the economical processes to make us thing that the economical engine is all based on the global market, when it's not. It's based on what rich corporations set the value of labor and management.

It's very easy and I'm still surprised you're not seeing it. Trust me, I used to be just like you guys. I bought in to every excuse about why gas prices are high, or why the unemployment rate is so high, or the cost of living is so high, or what interest rates are so high.

It's all about control and unregulated prices. Wall Street and corporations hate regulatory market control because it minimizes corporate money making schemes. I've been a supervisor for over 13 years, and one thing I've noticed throughout my career is how top leadership in any department love chasing statistics. Microsoft Power Point slides are shown at nearly every kind of meeting. And the "green" bar is what dictates financial decision, while the "red" bar (or pie) dictates punishments or cut backs.

If you looked at the government released income disparity chart, you would see that the primary focus on every business is to make the highest profit possible. When ever new leadership is hired, their job is to out-perform the guy before them; it's the same with the military. They are always looking for ways to increase the bottom line. Eventually, this causes an economical collapse. And when the new guy fails to make his corporation higher profits, his job ends up being on the line, so they get desperate. Just take a look at the CEO for Bank of America and how he's trying to convince the other banks (his buddies) to jump on board and force the debit card fee on their customers. All of them enforcing the debit card fees stops any form of consumer rebellion. Thank God that we saw a few banks disagree with this madness. His excuse is that they have a right to profit from the services they're providing, but that the have an obligation to the share holders. This is the exact same excuse that the Exxon Mobile CEO stated when he raised the price of fuel.

Bottom line guys; it's always about the "bottom line" for both the company, its managers, and the company share holders (those who invest money into a company). The draw back to this kind of economical machine is that it always has near catastrophic effects on the middle to lower class (consumers). When bank companies grow so big, that they are unwilling to cut-back on upper hand profits, instead of lower hand wages or manpower, the end result is what you see today.

What's the easiest way to explain this? As I've been saying. Just follow the money trail. Big corporations are like huge lakes of water, and the middle to lower class are the little ponds who get their water from lack rivers. Corporations control how much water flow into the rivers, and hence into the ponds. When they get greedy, they further obstruct the flow of water, thereby enabling them to have more say-so and control. Now let's add another equation; the government. The government, in an effort to minimize corporate control, to level the playing field, tries to tax the owners of the huge lade in order to bring more water back down to the ponds. SO the owner of the lake decides to hide his water else-where. OR he may try to raise interest rates, or stock prices in order to pass the additional tax cost on the backs of the ponds; that's what we've been seeing the past 30 years. Corporations aren't paying for their taxes; the consumers are, thus causing the higher prices in the cost of living, and nearly the cost of everything. So to help us out, the government decides to print more money, and jump-start the economy, or to at least keep it from stalling. This is called "Prime Pumping". Does it work? Usually, yes. But corporations hate this because it minimizes the amount of control they would have.

Now remember what I said about the government printing more money? Just look what happened in just 8 short years. The top 2% percent have attained a level of wealth that has never been achieved before. How do you think that was possible? Because of the additional money that the government kept pumping into the economy, and because of the high interest rates, high cost of living, high cost on products, and even the high cost of fuel, the middle class and the consumer have been paying for too much in relation to their wages. So naturally, all of the additional money afforded by the government, which the middle class or the poor receive through tax rebates, or the earned income credit, all pools up to the top. And thus we see the largest income disparity ever recorded in world history.

There is no way you can disprove me Tomret. The income chart says it all. It is impossible to make that kind of money without gouging; this is called "GREED". Everybody wants a chunk of the pie, from the manager, to the CEO, and to the share holder; they all want very fast profits. And who ends up paying for this? The middle class workers of America, and below.

Just follow the rich man, take a look at his profit-to-employment range, and that will tell you if he's gouging or not. And the top 2% percent have obtained the highest level of wealth ever, from gouging and ripping their employees off with ridiculously low wages.

Joe

[Tomret]

Been doing a lot of thinking about this topic, especially the claims about the gross inequity saturating the media. The solution of liberals is to raise taxes on the rich and corporations, conservatives object, but both seem to have accepted the statistics given. Those stats simply do not match the reality I have experienced, nor that of friends and family, so I've reached a conclusion about the scenario we're presented with:


THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE!

As John Stossel wrote in his article I linked to earlier, "...And income statistics don't tell the whole story. Thanks to the innovations of entrepreneurs, today in America, even poor people have clean water, TV sets, cars and flush toilets." How true, I was born in 1945, I remember our mill hill house which had a flush toilet, albeit an unheated one on the back porch. Many still used outhouses. My Dad was a loom fixer, one of the better paying jobs at the mill, but our only 'luxury' was a radio. Coal for heat, quilts for sleep, and lots of beans to eat.

Let's take a closer look at reality. Open the links in separate tabs for easy reference as we dig into this. First let's review the chart (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGXTTCfn3-o&feature=related) presented by Ed Schultz. Play until you get a good view of the chart then pause. It does appear that during the 30 year period from 1979-2009 the rich have gotten 240% richer while the income of what Ed calls the "wage earner in America" has been nearly stagnant. To see who these wage earners are let's look at the source (http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph) of Ed's chart, Mother Jones. According to the Average Household Income chart, there's a small but noticeable rise in the top 20% not reflected in Ed's chart, so his "wage earners" must be the bottom 80%. In addition to some making pretty good salaries, that group also includes the chronically poor, new hires earning entry level wages, part time workers, or anyone with income requiring tax return (as low as $9350/yr.). The low wage earners will always be present and will skew the result of such a comparison. Many (e.g. new hires) will advance earning more and other new hires will replace them. The income the chart represents does not take into account government assistance given to many (in varying degree, most) of the 47% that pay no income tax, nor does it take into account the advantage of not paying that tax.

To consider reality I'll first use myself as an example. In 1979 I made $8 per hour, when I retired in 2003 I made $27.50, a gain of 343% in 24 years (bet the 1% are jealous). But, Ed's chart went to 2009, comparing to that year even my Social Security and pension (about equal amounts) were 215% better than what I made in 1979. In 1982 I changed jobs and pay increased from about $9 to $13 per hour. I had the same job (electronic/electro mechanical tech) for the same company until retirement. During that 21 year period there were no factors such as promotions, etc., yet my base income increased 212%.

For our next example how about you, Joe? You're about to retire after 20 years and have said you make about $4,000+ per month, so I guess your pay grade is E-7. From this site (http://www.dfas.mil/militarymembers/payentitlements/militarypaytables.html) we see in 1979 an E-7 with over 20 made $1091.40, and in 2009 (comparing to Ed's chart time period) $3995.40, an increase of 366%. Did that keep up with inflation? Yes, and then some according to CPI calculator (http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=1092&year1=1979&year2=2009).

Now, I'm not saying there are not problems to be addressed, but the rape of the 99% by the 1% is being grossly exaggerated. No, make that fabricated! Fabricated by those with an agenda to transform this nation to fit in with some imagined grandiose new world order. Obama is on board with that as is his buddy Andy Stern who calls for "workers of the world unite!" Has such a nice Marxist ring to it. And why not, it's from The Communist Manifesto. It was the state motto of the USSR, the rallying cry of Hitler. And according to Stern, if the power of persuasion doesn't work, the persuasion of power will.

I'll have to concede the OWS protesters have demonstrated one truth, the reality of communal living. OK, I'll also admit they likely could do better given more time and some government assistance. No doubt they could achieve the same standard of living as Indians living on socialist reservations run by the federal government's Bureau of Indian Affairs. Those are the epitome of socialism and its destructiveness.

Finally, I'll agree the rich did play a role in creating the mess we're in. It happened in 1910 when they created The Creature From Jekyll Island (http://www.amazon.com/Creature-Jekyll-Island-Federal-Reserve/dp/0912986212).

[heb13-13]

All the taxpayers are being taken for a ride. Buckle up!! From liberal newspapers.

Cost, need questioned in $433-million smallpox drug deal
A company controlled by a longtime political donor gets a no-bid contract to supply an experimental remedy for a threat that may not exist.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-smallpox-20111113,0,4293298.story

What is done in the darkness will be brought into the light.
White House Email: 'Coming Storm' Over Solyndra 'And Other Inside DOE Deals'
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/white-house-email-energy-secretary-chu/story?id=14934698#.Tr6KiIR0r8C

A Gold Rush of Subsidies in Clean Energy Search
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/12/business/energy-environment/a-cornucopia-of-help-for-renewable-energy.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

Since Obamacare’s Passage, Millions Have Lost Employer-Sponsored Health Insurance
This is not what the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) had predicted would happen. Rather, the CBO had predicted that Obamacare would increase the number of people with employer-sponsored insurance by now.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obamacare-s-passage-millions-have-lost-employer-sponsored-health-insurance_607994.html

(I think the Weekly Standard might be conservative)

Both sides of the aisle take advantage of their fellow man.
Congress Members Took Part in Insider Trading: Abramoff
http://www.cnbc.com/id/45249857

Michael Moore is the white version of "shakedown artists" Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton. Actually, the government is the biggest shakedown artist.
Exclusive Photos: Michael Moore’s Massive Michigan Vacation Mansion Beyond 99 Percent’s Wildest Dreams (http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/abreitbart/2011/11/10/exclusive-photos-michael-moores-massive-michigan-vacation-mansion-beyond-99-percents-wildest-dreams/)

I wonder what the 99% think of Michael Moore?


In addition, according to statistics from 2009 (http://www.citymelt.com/city/Michigan/Forest+Home+Township-MI.html), Forest Home Township has no black residents. The township is roughly 98 percent white. Call that 99 percent, and Moore’s claim to be among “the 99 percent” begins to have some basis in reality.
No one begrudges Moore his wealth, but it is deceitful for him to claim poverty while encouraging class warfare among other Americans. It is also purely narcissistic and selfish for Moore to back radical and destructive socialist policies that would deny other Americans the opportunity to become as rich as he is.

[TheForgiven]

I wonder what the 99% think of Michael Moore?

In addition, according to statistics from 2009, Forest Home Township has no black residents. The township is roughly 98 percent white. Call that 99 percent, and Moore’s claim to be among “the 99 percent” begins to have some basis in reality.
No one begrudges Moore his wealth, but it is deceitful for him to claim poverty while encouraging class warfare among other Americans. It is also purely narcissistic and selfish for Moore to back radical and destructive socialist policies that would deny other Americans the opportunity to become as rich as he is.

Michael Moore is a good man who's voice and political position I admire. There's a misconception that right wing extremists continue to sell to the Fox News fans. The 99% percent are not advocating that wealth is a bad thing; they're protesting HOW that wealth is obtained.

I've stated this a few times now. This is a wonderful country where one has the chance to accumulate wealth. HOWEVER, honesty needs to be the key factor in generations wealth; NOT RIPPING SOMEONE OFF. Big Oil and other like companies did not obtain their wealth from honest practices. They relied on labor extortion, price gouging, market manipulation, tax evasion, passing company costs unto the consumer, instead of paying company expense out of their own profits; this tends to happen when a Corporate Empire has established its desires and needs to the public, thereby gaining too much control and power, that they actually believe they are needed. So all costs are to be pushed unto the consumer, and not the company. For example, if Big Oil wants to build another oil plant for drilling, they don't pay for it themselves; they expect the government to pay for this, AND they raise the cost of fuel to accommodate their expansion plans. How fair is that? So if I decided to build a restaurant, all I should be able to do borrow money from the government, and then what I've established myself, simply raise the cost of my food so that my customers pay for my desire to build another store? I'd lose customers faster than you could blink and eye. But if consumers were addicted to my product, then I could pass expansion costs unto my customers, thinking that they would not survive without me. This is the general attitude of Big Oil and Big Banks.

Once again, Democrats DO NOT advocate anti-wealth. They simply want fairness and higher consumer protection. What's wrong with that? What's so bad about the 99% percent asking for fairness and consumer protection?

Joe

[heb13-13]

And the beat goes on...

http://www.infowars.com/gerald-celentes-gold-account-was-emptied-by-mf-global/

[Tomret]

They're ba-a-a-a-a-ack! What's up with these Occupy Wall Streeters? Why do they think they have a right to occupy a private park intended for use by the public at large? The Homestead Act ended years ago! Their protests have earned them name recognition, they could transform into a political movement presenting a rational declaration of their core values and desires like other groups such as the Tea Party. Michael Moore could fund it. But they won't, see http://occupywallst.org/, especially the "Read: This call to action" link on the right top of page, and at top of that page follow the "Click Here to learn more" link to see specifics of their plans for tomorrow. They intend to expand their anarchy further infringing on the rights of the public masses. Occupy the SUBWAYS?!?!? The 1% don't ride subways. Why do they want to impede or block the 'workers of the world' they are supposed to be dedicated to helping? Because that is NOT their agenda. Their agenda is shown by the clenched fist and slogan, "the only solution is WorldRevolution" on their website. Collateral damage to the poor and middle class is irrelevant, the ends justify the means!

The true majority are those that occupy main street, industrial boulevard, retail avenue, mall plaza, blue collar lane. They are the throngs that occupy Wal-Mart, Home depot, malls, grocery stores. We keep hearing about the 'record income gap' from the media, including Fox News! I showed in post #96 how those reports are grossly exaggerated (did you miss that one, Joe?). I showed that my pay and that of an E-7 in the military increased well over 300% compared to 240% gain for the 1%. Instead of a distorted chart like Ed Shultz used, let's consider the simple visual below. The top line of $ represents the pay of the true majority, the bottom line of $ the 1%. For simplicities sake, let's assume both groups pay increased 300% over that 30 year period in order to see if there appears to be a growing gap.

1979
$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

2009
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


Well, there does appear to be a growing gap. That is why they compare dollars instead of buying power! Inflation has caused the number of dollars to increase, but the buying power of the rich in 1979 AND 2009 was 3 times that of the majority (in this simple example I just picked numbers, the multiple could be more or less but would be the same in both periods). Since there has been money there have been groups that made more or less of it. Contrary to Ed's chart the rich and poor were not at the same level in 1979, and I'm more convinced the bottom lines are a gross distortion. Even the minimum wage increased 250% during that period!

There was much more disparity in buying power in the early years of the industrial age, as well as very often horrible work conditions. Plus, many tycoons (Henry Ford for one) imposed their moral standards on workers. And many corporations provided the needs of their workers, housing, churches, schools, store. Think mill hills and coal mine towns, nice socialist arrangement, huh? There was a line in Tennessee Ernie Ford's coal miner song Sixteen Tons,


"St. Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go,
I owe my soul to the company sto'..."



Unions alleviated most of that. If more buying power is the goal they should return to their original mission instead of trying to socialize the globe! Why they press for a system that their own history shows so oppressed the working class is beyond me.

[TheForgiven]

The true majority are those that occupy main street, industrial boulevard, retail avenue, mall plaza, blue collar lane. They are the throngs that occupy Wal-Mart, Home depot, malls, grocery stores. We keep hearing about the 'record income gap' from the media, including Fox News! I showed in post #96 how those reports are grossly exaggerated (did you miss that one, Joe?). I showed that my pay and that of an E-7 in the military increased well over 300% compared to 240% gain for the 1%. Instead of a distorted chart like Ed Shultz used, let's consider the simple visual below. The top line of $ represents the pay of the true majority, the bottom line of $ the 1%. For simplicities sake, let's assume both groups pay increased 300% over that 30 year period in order to see if there appears to be a growing gap.

The chart was not distorted, and is widely accepted. You must first PROVE that it's distorted Tomret. That was a government released chart taken from tax data reported each year since the 1970's. I believe the numbers for the wealthy is actually higher than what was reported on the chart, because they (the rich) have hidden funds sitting overseas in either cash assets, or other types of hidden value.

The best way to explain the rich right as it stands right now, is in this statement. They swallow a camel, but strain out a gnat; and we, the middle class, have to feed on the gnats they give us. Corporations, Wal-Street, Politicians, and Investors getting too expensive, and the middle class cannot continue to support their rather expensive demands. Something has got to give, and we (the middle class) cannot give anymore; we're nearly out of blood as it is.

And just to inform you Tomret, that comparing an E-7 to a blue collared worker is illogical. An E-7 is up there in the ranks, and holds a supervisory position. My next door neighbor supervises a Bank of America branch, and her pay is double than that of an E-7, and she's only been there for 4 years; she's 24 years old. She manages about 15 to 20 people. An E-7 has three to four times her term length, with more education (college degrees), more experience, and in the Air Force, they may manage anywhere from 90 to 200 people. BIG difference! She's a civilian earning almost double what an E-7 earns, with less experience, yet with much higher pay; she grosses almost $100,000 a year. How fair is that? Is her job that important? Is her life on the line? Of course not. She gets her profit from all of the high-interest rate loans her bank provides, along with fees, etc.

I retired as an E-6 (Technical Sergeant) which is average for most retirees. But I'll take it. And my position was very important; I managed 98 to 102 people, with an annual salary of roughly $55,000 dollars. Now what civilian jobs manages that many people with less pay than that? Name even one.

A word of advice folks. It's not wise to criticize military pay without knowing exactly what they do. You'll find that police officer who hold a similar rank have the same level of responsibility, with nearly the same pay scale, and pension plan.

And there's no reason to "assume" anything about the pay gap. If they didn't have as much money as the chart reports, then where is it? It's certainly not circulating our way. There's not enough money flowing through the economy, or else unemployment wouldn't be so high; home foreclosures wouldn't be so high; wages wouldn't be so low. Your facts don't add up Tomret. You're trying to make this too trivial.

Just follow the rich white man, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what's going on. The middle class and the poor are not being paid enough wages to sustain a healthy economy. Too much income is flowing up to the top, with very little returning back down, even with 8 years of tax breaks big corporations have been enjoying. WHERE ARE THE JOBS? Try checking Mexico, China, South Korea, and only God knows where else.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to justify the amount of wealth the top 1% percent have accumulated my friend. IMPOSSIBLE! If you watched 60 minutes two nights ago, they blew the cover on what the Republicans have been doing. It's they who have been setting the market through market manipulation because they've invested millions in Wall-Street; in housing, oil, and banks. For one thing, oil should not be used as a commodity. But somehow, ever since they were deregulated in the 1990's, gas prices have continued to sore, with record profits never before achieved. The rising cost of fuel can be blamed on immoral speculation and investors trying to buy up shares in oil. As the CEO of Exxon Mobile states in 2008, "We have an obligation to the share holders". This was the exact same thing the head CEO of Bank of America stated, "we have an obligation to the share holders". That's the reason why the economy is tanking; the share holders (those who buy stocks) are costing the economy too much money, and it cannot survive. That's what caused the crash in the 1920's. Bank loaned out too much money, and the share holders, in their greed, were trying to get paid too quickly. This isn't rocket science guys; it's simple math.

As for the 99% percent, I'm with them 100% percent. If they want an American Revolution, I'll buy my guns and aim for the White House. It's time to rid ourselves of this oppression, and putting the greedy bastards who put us here, in the unemployment line.

Joe

[Silence]

Hello All,
I am not very optimistic about the prospects for the future of our country. Although I had read a few short excerpts from his writings several years ago, I recently pulled up some entries on the ancient historian Polybius, and read a good part of his "Histories" text, where he discusses the various stages in rise of the Roman empire and though he expresses wonder and admiration at their achievements, being a student of history, he also predicts that it too will fall. Book 6 is particularly enlightening as to the historical patterns of societies in choosing their forms of government and the causes behind those choices. The founding fathers of this country were all very familiar with Polybius. And in a nation that claims to have a government "of the people, by the people, and for the people", this book should have been required reading in all public schools. I can imagine the turmoil that would result now if a large portion of this country's citizens began to read his works for themselves and to insist on his analysis of governments being taught in school. But good luck getting people to forgo their weekend "football fest" or "Dancing with the stars" to do that.

(For anyone who is interested, this is one link I found where you can access Polybius' "Histories". http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015004828342;page=root;view=image;size =100;seq=7;num=i Book VI starts in section 48, page 363 . I found the introduction by the translator interesting too, since he discusses the unique nature of Ploybius' writing and also because it was written in the early part of the nineteenth century . On the whole, Polybius is much more impartial than most historians and sticks to the facts, even though Rome conquered the Greek civilization he was born into.)


I also heard a blurb last night on the radio, where someone was describing the hormonal effects of receiving the news that the value of your stock portfolio had gone up dramatically, or that your home value had risen, or any other supposedly "fortunate" financial news. It creates a huge release of "feel-good" substances that change the way you look at everything and clouds your judgment. (this is probably why many lotto winners make stupid choices and go bankrupt as a result) Anyone who tries to introduce a little reason gets accused of being too pessimistic and raining on the parade. So while "fortunate" financial scenarios are being manufactured for people to fall for, those who create these scenarios have their strategy all planned out ahead of time. When the housing market was heating up, people were encouraged to take out loans against the increased value of their homes for all kinds of reasons - to "enjoy all those things you have been missing out on", send the kids to college, or to "make those home improvements that will increase the value of your property even more!". I wonder how many banks would have lent money to people if they had demanded that the amount of their loan be tied directly to the value of whatever was being used to back the loan and would float up or down with that. My guess is zilch. But how many people were willing to look into the possible reasons why the value of their home was rising so much and decide if there was a valid basis for it? Most probably wouldn't care enough to even start. And that is probably one reason why those who pull on all of these strings don't feel bad when people get tangled up in them.

[TheForgiven]

Hello Silence.

You kind of lost me with your post, but I'll try to see if I understood your point. Are you saying that people bought homes because they assumed they could make money from it? This of course would be true to a certain degree. Most people who purchase home consider this an investment. Unfortunately, with high interest rates, and bloated home values (over appraised), buying a home these days is far from an investment. 25 to 30 years ago, this would be true because homes built in the 1960's and 70's were purchased for about $50,000 thousand dollars. Today, those say homes sell for about $120,000 thousand; that's a sure profit. BUT, if someone who owned a home that long decided to sell his house for that amount, he'd have to turn around and purchase a new home for the same price, if not more. So how is this considered an investment?

In truth, the only ones who make profit from buying a home are those who feed on the misfortunes of others. These are those who crawl around like snakes looking for a house dirt cheap, perhaps a home suffering from tax default, or a home that's being foreclosed on. As Mitt Romney said, "The foreclosure process needs to speed up and run its course so that INVESTORS can buy those homes cheap, and then either rent them or put them up on the market".

Anyone who gains wealth from the misfortune of others are in fact guilty of a huge sin; they are taking advantage of someone's misfortune, and us that to buy homes dirt cheap. To make it fair, if a home is being foreclosed, then by law, it should be sold at retail value, and not by what's owed on the house. If someone owes $28,000 dollars on a $100,000 thousand dollar home, and that someone suffered hard times and is in danger of default, legally and morally, the home should be sold for it's worth value; that money should be used to pay back the owed amount, and to pay back the owner all of the money he/she invested into the house. But banks use this to their advantage to guarantee a "quick sell", which in my strongest opinion, should be illegal. Why gives these rotten snakes the chance to capitalize on the hardship of someone else? It's just flat out immoral and wrong. Jesus wouldn't do that.

I know things will never change. But I'm hopeful that the 99% percent movement against Wall-Street may finally capture the hearts of our Political leaders, who have continued to be lobbied out by special interest and large corporations. The voice of the many should outweigh the voice of the few.

Joe

[Brother Les]

All housing and properties are over valued and need to drop by at least another 50% of current value. Housing inflation created an unrealistic allution of wealth. As with all bubbles there was a bursting point. The point of full deflation of Housing and properties are still years away. Nothing will be able to now stop this slide of depreciation of Housing. With a 20% surplus of existing homes with in the country, only the removal of this surplus will stop the slide. Note that houses and apartment buildings are still being build at a good clip, but at a slower rate than 5 years ago. 'New', unlived in homes are sitting empty and falling in on themselves for a lack of upkeep. Banks will end up bulldozing many of these houses and take a IRS write off as a credit to the bank on loans that had no backing by the bank.


15 trillion of Fed Debt and counting.
It is now noted that the 'Federal Reserved' 'owns' more of this 'debt' than China does. China is selling their 'dollar' debt and are buying hard assets that increase in value instead of decrease in value as the 'paper printed' dollar is.


http://www.examiner.com/nonpartisan-in-national/occupy-facts-federal-reserve-causes-unpayable-debt-unemployment-inflation-hi

[Tomret]

The chart was not distorted, and is widely accepted. You must first PROVE that it's distorted Tomret. That was a government released chart taken from tax data reported each year since the 1970's. I believe the numbers for the wealthy is actually higher than what was reported on the chart, because they (the rich) have hidden funds sitting overseas in either cash assets, or other types of hidden value.

I said it was widely accepted then showed why it should not be. I did PROVE it is distorted because it compares inflated numbers of dollars instead of actual buying power. That chart was not released by the government. I showed earlier the source of the chart. I learned the source of the chart by watching the Schultz video you provided. Take the log out of your eye and look at the bottom right of the chart and see the source: MOTHER JONES! I gave a link to their site where you can find the statement, "Want more charts like these? See ourcharts on..."


The best way to explain the rich right as it stands right now, is in this statement. They swallow a camel, but strain out a gnat; and we, the middle class, have to feed on the gnats they give us. Corporations, Wal-Street, Politicians, and Investors getting too expensive, and the middle class cannot continue to support their rather expensive demands. Something has got to give, and we (the middle class) cannot give anymore; we're nearly out of blood as it is.

And just to inform you Tomret, that comparing an E-7 to a blue collared worker is illogical. An E-7 is up there in the ranks, and holds a supervisory position. My next door neighbor supervises a Bank of America branch, and her pay is double than that of an E-7, and she's only been there for 4 years; she's 24 years old. She manages about 15 to 20 people. An E-7 has three to four times her term length, with more education (college degrees), more experience, and in the Air Force, they may manage anywhere from 90 to 200 people. BIG difference! She's a civilian earning almost double what an E-7 earns, with less experience, yet with much higher pay; she grosses almost $100,000 a year. How fair is that? Is her job that important? Is her life on the line? Of course not. She gets her profit from all of the high-interest rate loans her bank provides, along with fees, etc.

I did not compare an E-7 to myself, I used each to expose the lie that the income of the majority was virtually flat in the 1979-2009 chart. In my last post I showed even the minimum wage increased 250% during that period.

Either you or your neighbor are exaggerating her salary, unless she commutes to New York or Los Angeles. This site (http://www.careerbliss.com/salary/bank-of-america-salaries-in-columbia-sc-1078067/) is typical of several Google results. With only 4 years service I doubt she has exceeded the upper limit of that salary range! Interest rates determined by the secretive FED are near an all time low. Banks try to maintain profits by adding fees, but customers recently persuaded BoA to cancel plans for $5/mo. fee on debit cards without resorting to occupying public lands or streets/bridges blocking working folks from their jobs. I experienced the +20% rates during the Carter years.

73


I retired as an E-6 (Technical Sergeant) which is average for most retirees. But I'll take it. And my position was very important; I managed 98 to 102 people, with an annual salary of roughly $55,000 dollars. Now what civilian jobs manages that many people with less pay than that? Name even one.

A word of advice folks. It's not wise to criticize military pay without knowing exactly what they do. You'll find that police officer who hold a similar rank have the same level of responsibility, with nearly the same pay scale, and pension plan.

I did not criticize military pay. I'm glad their rate of pay increased over 350% during the 1979-2009 period, it's about time. As a veteran I'm well aware of what they do and their importance. I also know a little about financial struggles within. When I enlisted in 1965 I made $78/mo. and when service completed in 1969 my pay as an E-4 was $284/mo. (E-6 with over 20 was $427/mo.). I have friends in law enforcement and my son-in-law is a former Army Ranger and present SWAT team member in Charlotte. Save your lecture for those that have no respect for those in uniform...like the OWS crowd!


And there's no reason to "assume" anything about the pay gap. If they didn't have as much money as the chart reports, then where is it? It's certainly not circulating our way. There's not enough money flowing through the economy, or else unemployment wouldn't be so high; home foreclosures wouldn't be so high; wages wouldn't be so low. Your facts don't add up Tomret. You're trying to make this too trivial.

Just follow the rich white man, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what's going on. The middle class and the poor are not being paid enough wages to sustain a healthy economy. Too much income is flowing up to the top, with very little returning back down, even with 8 years of tax breaks big corporations have been enjoying. WHERE ARE THE JOBS? Try checking Mexico, China, South Korea, and only God knows where else.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to justify the amount of wealth the top 1% percent have accumulated my friend. IMPOSSIBLE! If you watched 60 minutes two nights ago, they blew the cover on what the Republicans have been doing. It's they who have been setting the market through market manipulation because they've invested millions in Wall-Street; in housing, oil, and banks. For one thing, oil should not be used as a commodity. But somehow, ever since they were deregulated in the 1990's, gas prices have continued to sore, with record profits never before achieved. The rising cost of fuel can be blamed on immoral speculation and investors trying to buy up shares in oil. As the CEO of Exxon Mobile states in 2008, "We have an obligation to the share holders". This was the exact same thing the head CEO of Bank of America stated, "we have an obligation to the share holders". That's the reason why the economy is tanking; the share holders (those who buy stocks) are costing the economy too much money, and it cannot survive. That's what caused the crash in the 1920's. Bank loaned out too much money, and the share holders, in their greed, were trying to get paid too quickly. This isn't rocket science guys; it's simple math.

You refuse simple math placed on the screen in front of you. You don't understand basic economics and refuse to consider anything other than what those with a socialist agenda present. "Just follow the rich white man," eh? Liberal tactic to divert into a racial divide.

The only 'oil deregulation law' I found was in the Philippines. Found some deregulation of natural gas, but the only deregulation of gasoline I found was by Jimmy Carter after his policies contributed to the skyrocketing prices (coincident with highest interest rates in history). Here's a novel idea; how about you doing some research and post facts to back up your diatribe?

Corporations do have an obligation to shareholders. They - including the majority of American workers who invest via 401K plans - provide capitol so corporations can invent and produce stuff all of us want. As (or if) corporations profit investors rightfully expect a profitable return on their investment.


As for the 99% percent, I'm with them 100% percent. If they want an American Revolution, I'll buy my guns and aim for the White House. It's time to rid ourselves of this oppression, and putting the greedy bastards who put us here, in the unemployment line.

Joe

So, you acknowledge and approve of their intent to use violence, i.e. persuasion of power. I thought you approved of Obama. Now you think your former commander in chief should be assassinated, and are willing to do it yourself?!?!?! Collateral casualties (family, staff, visitors) OK by you? Are you willing to shoot it out with your former brothers in uniform? Do you know the Secret Service takes such statements very seriously? Have you seen any non-descript sedans cruising your neighborhood today? Very strange that you would dedicate your career to defending this republic, and now you want to destroy it. You could wind up spending your retirement with Oscar Ortega:

74

[TheForgiven]

I said it was widely accepted then showed why it should not be. I did PROVE it is distorted because it compares inflated numbers of dollars instead of actual buying power. That chart was not released by the government. I showed earlier the source of the chart. I learned the source of the chart by watching the Schultz video you provided. Take the log out of your eye and look at the bottom right of the chart and see the source: MOTHER JONES! I gave a link to their site where you can find the statement, "Want more charts like these? See [/FONT]ourcharts on..."

Not correct Tomret. The chart itself came from "Mother Jones"....do you know what that is? :lol: Apparently not. The data came from the government using tax information reported on an annual basis. Besides, if the chart is a fake, then somebody fooled house speaker Boehner, who admitted to the income disparity. So how is the chart a fraud if even a Republican admits to it? You're relying on myths my friend. Mother Jones is just a media site that did not create the data; it used Federal data to create the chart. And again, nobody opposes the chart; not even on Fox News, who used a similar chart on one of their late-night shows (forgot the name). The late night show host on Fox News stated that the income disparity existed because there aren't enough American's educated enough to hold the only jobs available out there. I mean, how stupid can you be? :lol: There aren't enough qualified people to hold jobs requiring a college education? Once again, all myths, and that's what kills me about Conservative Republicans. Nearly none of their information is based on fact; it's all myth and speculation, with no numbers to back it up.


I did not compare an E-7 to myself, I used each to expose the lie that the income of the majority was virtually flat in the 1979-2009 chart. In my last post I showed even the minimum wage increased 250% during that period.

Minimum wage in the 1980's was $3.35 an hour. More than 20 years later, the minimum wage is about $8 bucks give or take depending on which state you're in. That's not much of an increase compared to the increase of the top 2% percent since 1979. Their pay has sky rocketed to unrealistic numbers, with too much money that they don't even know what to do with.


Either you or your neighbor are exaggerating her salary, unless she commutes to New York or Los Angeles. This site (http://www.careerbliss.com/salary/bank-of-america-salaries-in-columbia-sc-1078067/) is typical of several Google results. With only 4 years service I doubt she has exceeded the upper limit of that salary range! Interest rates determined by the secretive FED are near an all time low. Banks try to maintain profits by adding fees, but customers recently persuaded BoA to cancel plans for $5/mo. fee on debit cards without resorting to occupying public lands or streets/bridges blocking working folks from their jobs. I experienced the +20% rates during the Carter years.

73

Oh, so now I'm exaggerating? She averages between $85,000 to $95,000 annually, while I (as an E-6) was paid about $55,000 thousand annually; that's counting my non-taxable entitlements. If I didn't count that, it would be less than $40,000 annually. I admit that this isn't a bad chunk of change, but I'd sure love to have the income of my neighbor who manages about 2 branches. I tease her because as much money as she makes, she drives a cheap car; I suppose this is smart budgeting. Her husband is in the army and is currently deployed overseas. The reason for her discretionary spending is because they are saving up for a house. So she's renting a room in my neighbors house in order to save money for a house, to pay by check. Now why would she do that? For one, that's much smarter if you have the ability to do this, but it avoids having to pay the outrageous long-term 20 to 30 year interest rates required by banks and their shareholders. This is the kind of extortion that I'm talking about. But not everyone is as fortunate as her to afford doing this. Why not?



I did not criticize military pay. I'm glad their rate of pay increased over 350% during the 1979-2009 period, it's about time. As a veteran I'm well aware of what they do and their importance. I also know a little about financial struggles within. When I enlisted in 1965 I made $78/mo. and when service completed in 1969 my pay as an E-4 was $284/mo. (E-6 with over 20 was $427/mo.). I have friends in law enforcement and my son-in-law is a former Army Ranger and present SWAT team member in Charlotte. Save your lecture for those that have no respect for those in uniform...like the OWS crowd!

My bad my friend. I did not know you are a Vet. My sincere apologies and gratitude my fellow soldier. Please accept my humbled apologies.


You refuse simple math placed on the screen in front of you. You don't understand basic economics and refuse to consider anything other than what those with a socialist agenda present. "Just follow the rich white man," eh? Liberal tactic to divert into a racial divide.


I do understand basic economics. Right wing confusion tries to cloud the truth behind the reasons why the economy is so bad. This coming from the same group of people who lied about overseas middle eastern turmoil causing crude oil to rise. This was nothing more than them using any form of disaster or conflict to raise the price of fuel. Why? As I've been stating; follow the rich white man. How is this a typical left wing diversion? It's the truth.

Look, it's so simple, and I'm gassed to see that you can't see it. If our economy is so bad, then wouldn't they (the rich) be broke too? Of course, and as it now stands, they've accumulated more wealth than any corporation has ever accumulated. And what's so bad is that the GOP (and Democrats) are all guilty of market manipulation to they can take tax dollars and invest it in wall-street, so that they could all get rich. The rich guys continue to rake in huge profits, while the middle guy and below have a much harder time paying their bills, finding a job, make enough money to pay for school, or taking on huge student loans that it takes a life time to pay back. And who do you think is profiting from this kind of extortion? The rich white guy, with a very small handful of blacks. Now, I hope you understand that I'm only speaking metaphorically here. I'm not really saying "white guy" as though I were a racist or something. I'm merely repeating a popular cliche. Rich folks continue to grow rich because the middle class are paying up the yin-yang for the expensive cost of living, and huge credit/loan debt. Wall-Street is the sole reason for this, along with their lobbied Political leaders called the Republican Conservative party. Now, I'm not so naive to believe that Democrats are the innocent party; they are just as guilty. But the only ones who are at least trying to help us are the Democrats. Republican flat out, do not care. Have you watched Mitt Romney's video on how he would handle the housing crisis? He says to speed up the foreclosure process and allow investors to turn these houses around either for rent, or for sell. But the poor soul who lost his house to the rich guy? Well, the same old thing....GET OUT! Why would I vote for a group that doesn't not represent the interest of the middle class or the poor? And why would I vote for a group who honors the military with their lips, but their actions say much less. On nearly every pay raise the military has received, the majority of Politician's who've voted "no" the past 8 years are Republicans. Did you hear what House Speaker Boehner said about Vets last week? He thinks we need to go back to the 2008 budget, and start cutting Vet Benefits, Military pensions, and other military entitlements. But no, we'd better not cut the rather expensive, and unnecessary F-22; the most expensive fighter jet, with the most useless combat capability to date, and with a Fully Mission Capable rate of less than 65% percent, while the much older F-16 has a FMC rate of 85% to 90%, and at half the cost.

The Air Force and the Navy do not consider their "personnel" as the most important asset of the service; they consider technology to be more important. While it is important, it is people who win wars, using the technology available to them. But these days, there is no "cold war", so a stealthy F-22 with limited pay-load, and a very very very very very expensive price tag, is just not worth cutting troops and pensions for the same of flying wings; especially when Pilots are not the ones losing their jobs, but those who are responsible for repairing those wings.

OK, I'm rambling on a bit. My point is that the GOP has been busted working hand-in-hand with Wall-Street so they can get rich, even at the cost of the middle class and the poor.


The only 'oil deregulation law' I found was in the Philippines. Found some deregulation of natural gas, but the only deregulation of gasoline I found was by Jimmy Carter after his policies contributed to the skyrocketing prices (coincident with highest interest rates in history). Here's a novel idea; how about you doing some research and post facts to back up your diatribe?

Exactly! Now you might want to check your source, because I do not believe it was Jimmy Carter who deregulated oil. It actually goes back much further, somewhere in the early 70's. Remember the gas crunch then? But gas prices got much worse during the George Bush years...you know this to be true. Big Oil kept using natural disasters, and middle eastern turmoil as an excuse to raise prices, with both Democrats and Republicans (Sarah Palin) admitted that oil speculator's were the reason for the high gas prices. They were purposefully driving up gas prices because many rich are trying to throw their money in oil shares. They'll lower the price of crude oil enough to allow investors to start buying up shares, knowing that within a few years, they'll schedule an oil-price surge using any form of natural or man-inflicted disaster. What's the latest disaster they're trying to use now? I saw it on the news yesterday. Just a matter of time before they'll blame overseas turmoil on reduced supplies. Of course, Democrats aren't helping in their attempt to block the Alaskan Oil pipeline. I for one support this line as long as it does not pose a threat to our environment.


Corporations do have an obligation to shareholders. They - including the majority of American workers who invest via 401K plans - provide capitol so corporations can invent and produce stuff all of us want. As (or if) corporations profit investors rightfully expect a profitable return on their investment.

Of course they're entitled to a profit? But a profit level so high that it leaves the workers in poverty? Aren't the workers just as important as the shareholders, if not more? You see? That's the same old clouded lie I once accepted for years, and I do mean years. I've been a conservative republican for 20 years. But the last 2 to 4 years have really opened my eyes to the truth. There's nothing wrong with earning a profit. But when "Greed" gets in the way, it often leads to oppression and extortion of the workers. The very rich (top 2%) always pass the cost of their companies and its shareholders on the backs of the consumers. Let's say you own a candy bard factory, and you want to build a new one. What would happen if you increased the price of your candy bars from .50 cents to $2.00 bucks. Nobody would buy it right? Well that's because of competition, AND because nobody really "needs" a candy bar. So you'd be forced into building the new factory at your own risk and expense. This isn't the case with Big oil, Wall-Street, big banks, etc. They've got so much demand and control, and our society has grown so dependent on them, we don't have the option of simply saying, "No, I don't want electricity, or gas, a house, or food". Like drug addiction, they use our need to extort profits from us. For example, Georgia Electric wants to build a new Nuclear Power plant. But they don't want to spend the money out of their pockets. So last week, everyone received a letter in the mail explaining that their bill was going to go up 25% percent to pay for the new Nuclear Power facility. Now how fair is that? Shouldn't the company itself be spending its own profit (which equates to more than 3 trillion dollars) into building this new plant? NOT! GREED gets in the way, and they pass the excessive cost of expansion onto the consumer. BANKS to the very same thing. The head CEO of Bank of America was pissed off that Obama passed new legislation a few months back to help cut down on bank arbitrarily raising consumer credit card interest rates, simply for the sake of making more money. It didn't matter how on-time you were with your payments, or how good your FICO score was. Without justification or reason, they could simply raise your interest rate from 6% percent to 28%. You can't honestly tell me that you think they have a right to the shareholders or the CEO's to pass their profiteering costs onto the backs of the consumers?

YES, I fully understand that any form of business has to have profit in order to sustain itself, along with its share-holders and employee's. But paying employee's low wages, while giving share holders HUGE pay-outs, while at the same time, stock-piling millions upon millions of dollars on the side-line, and asking the Federal Government to give you a tax-break for nothing, is immoral and is no excuse to push jobs overseas. Businesses have a right to make profits; that's the American dream. But so do its employee's. And that's the argument here. But greedy CEO's, Big Banks, Conservative Republicans, and Wall-Street have made life nearly impossible for the average hard-working American to get ahead in life. It's as though the only way to get ahead is to live a crappy trailer, drive a oil-sucking car on balled tires, and eating mustard sandwiches. While they, the greedy rich, laugh on their way to the bank having extorted their profits from paying low wages, pushing jobs overseas (cheaper labor), selling their overseas made products at such a high prices as though it were made in the states, receiving huge tax breaks when they don't need it, etc. etc.

What else can I say? You want to believe what you want because you have been taught to believe this; it's your choice of course. But you are making the same mistake I've made for 20 years. Just look at the figures. More than 60% percent of America's wealth is floating around at the top 2% percent, leaving only about 40% percent of the 98% percent o fight over; that's not enough money. And how did they get so rich? Lobbied legislation, tax evasion, worker exploitation, NAFTA, investing in banks yielding profits from high-interest rate loans and long-term mortgages.

You know what baffles me Tomret? How you could honestly smile in a mirror and say to yourself, "Hell yea! I don't mind paying back a loan 3 times more than I was given. I don't mind only getting paid $14 bucks an hour while my manager makes 5 to 10 times that amount. I don't mind having to pay $3.00 bucks for a gallon a gas even though I can't afford it." These rich folks are getting rich from hard times like this, and you think this is fine? Well, if you like getting screwed, then be my guest. But I'd rather be the one not being taken advantage of.


So, you acknowledge and approve of their intent to use violence, i.e. persuasion of power. I thought you approved of Obama. Now you think your former commander in chief should be assassinated, and are willing to do it yourself?!?!?! Collateral casualties (family, staff, visitors) OK by you? Are you willing to shoot it out with your former brothers in uniform? Do you know the Secret Service takes such statements very seriously? Have you seen any non-descript sedans cruising your neighborhood today? Very strange that you would dedicate your career to defending this republic, and now you want to destroy it. You could wind up spending your retirement with Oscar Ortega:

No that's not what I said. I love Obama and his administration. It's the Republicans I want out of office. They've been a "do nothing" congress since 2008, and it's time to get those wall-street loving bastards out of office. As for literally holding a gun, if that's what it takes, then that's what it takes. But you'd be surprised at how many military men are thinking the exact same thing. Or have you not heard that they (GOP) are wanting to cut military pensions and Vet disability compensation? Would that be enough to entice you, the Vet, to take a stand against those who would consider doing such a thing? Your choice.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

Here's the chart that Tomret seems to question. Please take a good look as the data used to make this chart came from the Congressional Budget Office:

Double Click the Image to enlarge:
75

This is nearly the same chart that Ed Shultz uses on his show. Folks the numbers speak for themselves. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why the economy tanked. The top 1 to 2 percent has seen HUGE increases in pay to nearly 300% percent since 1979. The largest increases were in 2000, which dropped temporarily in 2001 due to the WTC attacks, and then all of a sudden spiked to unbelievable levels.

When that much money flows to the very top 1 to 2% percent, and not enough of it trickles back down, the middle class and the poor get hit the most. Unless they are willing to higher more people, pay higher wages, the only way to ensure a healthy economy is to tax them. As bad as this sounds, our country is more important than their ideals that say, "It's my money so don't tell me how to spend it". Yet we're told everyday how to spend our money. We're told how much we have to pay for gas, electricity, food, housing, water, insurance, health insurance, etc. We don't have a choice when it comes to these necessities, and yet both the government and the top 2% percent are the ones controlling the market for gas, electricity, food, housing, insurance, health insurance, etc.

When I say, "Follow the rich white guy", the chart speaks for itself. They've got complete control over the market, and thus are DIRECTLY responsible for the high unemployment rates, and high foreclosures...although many within the middle class and the poor need to man-up and take responsibility for their "interest-only" mortgage mistakes. These are those who bought a house strictly for the purpose of reselling it quickly as soon as prices started to go back up.

Anyways, the numbers speak for themselves. You can't blame unemployment on Unions, expensive employee's, rising health care costs, etc, when the numbers show that despite the expensive American worker, their numbers continued to soar beyond levels never before achieved. Now, if they were going broke, then perhaps they would have a better leg to stand on; their arguments would be logical. But as we can see, they are far from broke.

Some like to blame GM's failure on Unions and pensions. But why don't they tell everyone the truth. Ever since they redesigned the Chevy engines into the LS class, many of them began experiencing what was called "Piston Slap". To make this short, GM suffered hundreds to thousands of lawsuits, especially from ticked off consumers who had to pay up to $7,000 dollars for an engine replacement with less than 50,000 miles. The problem was caused by cheap manufacturing and design. The GM 5.3 liter LS engine is a composite motor utilizing interchangeable parts from European engines. This saved GM hundreds of thousands from having to build manufacturing plants. But these composite engines are not near as durable as the old reliable 350 cubic inch engine. The LS engines were failing far too soon, in trucks costing more than $40,000 dollars. So naturally, GM got sued. Sometime between 2003 and 2006, GM ended up buying back lemon trucks from customers who sued them; this buy-back rate averages about 28% percent of its inventory a year. That is a huge loss of profits. Chrysler has the exact same problems with its head-gasket failing engines within the 2.0, 2.4, and the 2.5 liter Mitsubishi engines.

So the reasons why Dodge and GM were struggling had very little to do with Unions, employee health care, etc. It had everything to do with their multiple lawsuits contributing to lost revenue, and valued customers. So they relied on the government bail-out. I laugh when people start blaming GM's bankruptcy dangers on unions, pensions, and salaries. :lol: That's just a bunch of B/S! If they were that broke from unions, etc., then how do you explain the CEO's of GM still having enough money to pay for private jets, and pay each other million dollar bonus's? Apparently, they weren't that broke.

It's all right-wing rhetoric I tell ya. The very rich will always justify their life-styles ahead of the rest of society. I have no problem with someone wanting to get rich, just as long as them getting rich doesn't mean dumping their neighbor, employee, or any American citizen, into the poverty-ditch. Get rich, but be fair about it.

Joe

[Silence]

Hello Silence.

You kind of lost me with your post, but I'll try to see if I understood your point. Are you saying that people bought homes because they assumed they could make money from it? This of course would be true to a certain degree. Most people who purchase home consider this an investment. Unfortunately, with high interest rates, and bloated home values (over appraised), buying a home these days is far from an investment. 25 to 30 years ago, this would be true because homes built in the 1960's and 70's were purchased for about $50,000 thousand dollars. Today, those say homes sell for about $120,000 thousand; that's a sure profit. BUT, if someone who owned a home that long decided to sell his house for that amount, he'd have to turn around and purchase a new home for the same price, if not more. So how is this considered an investment?

In truth, the only ones who make profit from buying a home are those who feed on the misfortunes of others. These are those who crawl around like snakes looking for a house dirt cheap, perhaps a home suffering from tax default, or a home that's being foreclosed on. As Mitt Romney said, "The foreclosure process needs to speed up and run its course so that INVESTORS can buy those homes cheap, and then either rent them or put them up on the market".

Anyone who gains wealth from the misfortune of others are in fact guilty of a huge sin; they are taking advantage of someone's misfortune, and us that to buy homes dirt cheap. To make it fair, if a home is being foreclosed, then by law, it should be sold at retail value, and not by what's owed on the house. If someone owes $28,000 dollars on a $100,000 thousand dollar home, and that someone suffered hard times and is in danger of default, legally and morally, the home should be sold for it's worth value; that money should be used to pay back the owed amount, and to pay back the owner all of the money he/she invested into the house. But banks use this to their advantage to guarantee a "quick sell", which in my strongest opinion, should be illegal. Why gives these rotten snakes the chance to capitalize on the hardship of someone else? It's just flat out immoral and wrong. Jesus wouldn't do that.

I know things will never change. But I'm hopeful that the 99% percent movement against Wall-Street may finally capture the hearts of our Political leaders, who have continued to be lobbied out by special interest and large corporations. The voice of the many should outweigh the voice of the few.

Joe

Hi Joe,
I wasn't focusing on people buying a house in hopes of making money on it, even though that can cause problems too. I was talking about the unrealistic way people respond to "good " financial news, whether they were doing something actively in an effort to achieve it or not. Those who manipulate others to get wealthy have a whole bag of tricks that they use. One thing they do is count on people's tendency to assume that since the market value of their home has gone up, then that additional value is something that is actually theirs. They are now "rich", or maybe even just "comfortable", and feel they can afford to live it up a little. They mentally move that "money" into their lifestyle, even though they don't really have it unless they sell. One of the biggest problems with this mindset comes about when they start taking out loans against the increased market value of their homes. There used to be a lot of T.V. advertising encouraging people to do just that. It is a form of gambling, in that you have to assume that the market will hold where it is at or advance, if it doesn't you will be stuck with a loan balance and nothing to sell that will cover the debt.

I can understand your frustration. It is a pretty well known fact that economics as we know it operates on the same principles as warfare. It is also known that deception is usually a big part of warfare. But don't expect the people at the top to come out and admit the connections. And as long as a good portion of the 99% are willing to settle for bread and a circus, it won't get any better. I guess hard times are about the only antidote for the tendency in all of us to get complacent. That seems to be a big part of the pattern that Polybius detected.

[Tomret]

Not correct Tomret. The chart itself came from "Mother Jones"....do you know what that is? :lol: Apparently not. The data came from the government using tax information reported on an annual basis. Besides, if the chart is a fake, then somebody fooled house speaker Boehner, who admitted to the income disparity. So how is the chart a fraud if even a Republican admits to it? You're relying on myths my friend. Mother Jones is just a media site that did not create the data; it used Federal data to create the chart. And again, nobody opposes the chart; not even on Fox News, who used a similar chart on one of their late-night shows (forgot the name). The late night show host on Fox News stated that the income disparity existed because there aren't enough American's educated enough to hold the only jobs available out there. I mean, how stupid can you be? :lol: There aren't enough qualified people to hold jobs requiring a college education? Once again, all myths, and that's what kills me about Conservative Republicans. Nearly none of their information is based on fact; it's all myth and speculation, with no numbers to back it up.

Glad you finally admit the chart came from Mother Jones and not the government as you have repeatedly claimed. Yes, I know what Mother Jones is, you can learn about them here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Jones_%28magazine%29). You can see here (http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/01/white-house-tucson-gun-control-measures-gibbs-obama) they are disappointed Obama hasn't kept his pledge of 'tougher gun controls' (liberal code for disarm citizenry). They do cite various sources including government ones as the basis for their charts, but as I've shown those sources do not reflect reality.

Is there an echo in here? I have said liberals and conservatives seem to have accepted the statistics given and spread by the media including Fox News. But, the figures are in inflated dollars instead of buying power, thus the gross distortion.


Minimum wage in the 1980's was $3.35 an hour. More than 20 years later, the minimum wage is about $8 bucks give or take depending on which state you're in. That's not much of an increase compared to the increase of the top 2% percent since 1979. Their pay has sky rocketed to unrealistic numbers, with too much money that they don't even know what to do with.

I said 250% over the 30 year period in Ed's chart. According to your figures minimum wage increased 239% in 20 years which is 12% per year. That would be 358% over a 30 year period. OK Joe, we'll use your numbers!


Oh, so now I'm exaggerating? She averages between $85,000 to $95,000 annually, while I (as an E-6) was paid about $55,000 thousand annually; that's counting my non-taxable entitlements. If I didn't count that, it would be less than $40,000 annually. I admit that this isn't a bad chunk of change, but I'd sure love to have the income of my neighbor who manages about 2 branches. I tease her because as much money as she makes, she drives a cheap car; I suppose this is smart budgeting. Her husband is in the army and is currently deployed overseas. The reason for her discretionary spending is because they are saving up for a house. So she's renting a room in my neighbors house in order to save money for a house, to pay by check. Now why would she do that? For one, that's much smarter if you have the ability to do this, but it avoids having to pay the outrageous long-term 20 to 30 year interest rates required by banks and their shareholders. This is the kind of extortion that I'm talking about. But not everyone is as fortunate as her to afford doing this. Why not?

Before you said she "supervises a Bank of America branch." Now it's "about 2 branches." What's 'about' mean? 1.8 branches? Never mind, if she supervises 2 or more she is more than a branch manager. Is her husband as jealous of her income as you?


My bad my friend. I did not know you are a Vet. My sincere apologies and gratitude my fellow soldier. Please accept my humbled apologies.

Accepted. But, after I thanked you and all veterans on 11-11-11 you thanked me and saluted me as a citizen. Then in post 94 I acknowledged and closed with:
You are quite welcome. As for the bulk of your post I won't address it since it is a repetition of your complaints. Plus I've been researching and working on a post off and on most of the day. Hoped to post it today but looks like it may be tomorrow. I think it will surprise you... if ye will receive it.

Tom (USAF 1965-1969)


You missed my added signature just as you miss most of what I write.


I do understand basic economics. Right wing confusion tries to cloud the truth behind the reasons why the economy is so bad. This coming from the same group of people who lied about overseas middle eastern turmoil causing crude oil to rise. This was nothing more than them using any form of disaster or conflict to raise the price of fuel. Why? As I've been stating; follow the rich white man. How is this a typical left wing diversion? It's the truth.

Look, it's so simple, and I'm gassed to see that you can't see it. If our economy is so bad, then wouldn't they (the rich) be broke too? Of course, and as it now stands, they've accumulated more wealth than any corporation has ever accumulated. And what's so bad is that the GOP (and Democrats) are all guilty of market manipulation to they can take tax dollars and invest it in wall-street, so that they could all get rich. The rich guys continue to rake in huge profits, while the middle guy and below have a much harder time paying their bills, finding a job, make enough money to pay for school, or taking on huge student loans that it takes a life time to pay back. And who do you think is profiting from this kind of extortion? The rich white guy, with a very small handful of blacks. Now, I hope you understand that I'm only speaking metaphorically here. I'm not really saying "white guy" as though I were a racist or something. I'm merely repeating a popular cliche. Rich folks continue to grow rich because the middle class are paying up the yin-yang for the expensive cost of living, and huge credit/loan debt. Wall-Street is the sole reason for this, along with their lobbied Political leaders called the Republican Conservative party. Now, I'm not so naive to believe that Democrats are the innocent party; they are just as guilty. But the only ones who are at least trying to help us are the Democrats. Republican flat out, do not care. Have you watched Mitt Romney's video on how he would handle the housing crisis? He says to speed up the foreclosure process and allow investors to turn these houses around either for rent, or for sell. But the poor soul who lost his house to the rich guy? Well, the same old thing....GET OUT! Why would I vote for a group that doesn't not represent the interest of the middle class or the poor? And why would I vote for a group who honors the military with their lips, but their actions say much less. On nearly every pay raise the military has received, the majority of Politician's who've voted "no" the past 8 years are Republicans. Did you hear what House Speaker Boehner said about Vets last week? He thinks we need to go back to the 2008 budget, and start cutting Vet Benefits, Military pensions, and other military entitlements. But no, we'd better not cut the rather expensive, and unnecessary F-22; the most expensive fighter jet, with the most useless combat capability to date, and with a Fully Mission Capable rate of less than 65% percent, while the much older F-16 has a FMC rate of 85% to 90%, and at half the cost.

The Air Force and the Navy do not consider their "personnel" as the most important asset of the service; they consider technology to be more important. While it is important, it is people who win wars, using the technology available to them. But these days, there is no "cold war", so a stealthy F-22 with limited pay-load, and a very very very very very expensive price tag, is just not worth cutting troops and pensions for the same of flying wings; especially when Pilots are not the ones losing their jobs, but those who are responsible for repairing those wings.

OK, I'm rambling on a bit. My point is that the GOP has been busted working hand-in-hand with Wall-Street so they can get rich, even at the cost of the middle class and the poor.


Exactly! Now you might want to check your source, because I do not believe it was Jimmy Carter who deregulated oil. It actually goes back much further, somewhere in the early 70's. Remember the gas crunch then? But gas prices got much worse during the George Bush years...you know this to be true. Big Oil kept using natural disasters, and middle eastern turmoil as an excuse to raise prices, with both Democrats and Republicans (Sarah Palin) admitted that oil speculator's were the reason for the high gas prices. They were purposefully driving up gas prices because many rich are trying to throw their money in oil shares. They'll lower the price of crude oil enough to allow investors to start buying up shares, knowing that within a few years, they'll schedule an oil-price surge using any form of natural or man-inflicted disaster. What's the latest disaster they're trying to use now? I saw it on the news yesterday. Just a matter of time before they'll blame overseas turmoil on reduced supplies. Of course, Democrats aren't helping in their attempt to block the Alaskan Oil pipeline. I for one support this line as long as it does not pose a threat to our environment.

Of course they're entitled to a profit? But a profit level so high that it leaves the workers in poverty? Aren't the workers just as important as the shareholders, if not more? You see? That's the same old clouded lie I once accepted for years, and I do mean years. I've been a conservative republican for 20 years. But the last 2 to 4 years have really opened my eyes to the truth. There's nothing wrong with earning a profit. But when "Greed" gets in the way, it often leads to oppression and extortion of the workers. The very rich (top 2%) always pass the cost of their companies and its shareholders on the backs of the consumers. Let's say you own a candy bard factory, and you want to build a new one. What would happen if you increased the price of your candy bars from .50 cents to $2.00 bucks. Nobody would buy it right? Well that's because of competition, AND because nobody really "needs" a candy bar. So you'd be forced into building the new factory at your own risk and expense. This isn't the case with Big oil, Wall-Street, big banks, etc. They've got so much demand and control, and our society has grown so dependent on them, we don't have the option of simply saying, "No, I don't want electricity, or gas, a house, or food". Like drug addiction, they use our need to extort profits from us. For example, Georgia Electric wants to build a new Nuclear Power plant. But they don't want to spend the money out of their pockets. So last week, everyone received a letter in the mail explaining that their bill was going to go up 25% percent to pay for the new Nuclear Power facility. Now how fair is that? Shouldn't the company itself be spending its own profit (which equates to more than 3 trillion dollars) into building this new plant? NOT! GREED gets in the way, and they pass the excessive cost of expansion onto the consumer. BANKS to the very same thing. The head CEO of Bank of America was pissed off that Obama passed new legislation a few months back to help cut down on bank arbitrarily raising consumer credit card interest rates, simply for the sake of making more money. It didn't matter how on-time you were with your payments, or how good your FICO score was. Without justification or reason, they could simply raise your interest rate from 6% percent to 28%. You can't honestly tell me that you think they have a right to the shareholders or the CEO's to pass their profiteering costs onto the backs of the consumers?

YES, I fully understand that any form of business has to have profit in order to sustain itself, along with its share-holders and employee's. But paying employee's low wages, while giving share holders HUGE pay-outs, while at the same time, stock-piling millions upon millions of dollars on the side-line, and asking the Federal Government to give you a tax-break for nothing, is immoral and is no excuse to push jobs overseas. Businesses have a right to make profits; that's the American dream. But so do its employee's. And that's the argument here. But greedy CEO's, Big Banks, Conservative Republicans, and Wall-Street have made life nearly impossible for the average hard-working American to get ahead in life. It's as though the only way to get ahead is to live a crappy trailer, drive a oil-sucking car on balled tires, and eating mustard sandwiches. While they, the greedy rich, laugh on their way to the bank having extorted their profits from paying low wages, pushing jobs overseas (cheaper labor), selling their overseas made products at such a high prices as though it were made in the states, receiving huge tax breaks when they don't need it, etc. etc.

What else can I say? You want to believe what you want because you have been taught to believe this; it's your choice of course. But you are making the same mistake I've made for 20 years. Just look at the figures. More than 60% percent of America's wealth is floating around at the top 2% percent, leaving only about 40% percent of the 98% percent o fight over; that's not enough money. And how did they get so rich? Lobbied legislation, tax evasion, worker exploitation, NAFTA, investing in banks yielding profits from high-interest rate loans and long-term mortgages.

You know what baffles me Tomret? How you could honestly smile in a mirror and say to yourself, "Hell yea! I don't mind paying back a loan 3 times more than I was given. I don't mind only getting paid $14 bucks an hour while my manager makes 5 to 10 times that amount. I don't mind having to pay $3.00 bucks for a gallon a gas even though I can't afford it." These rich folks are getting rich from hard times like this, and you think this is fine? Well, if you like getting screwed, then be my guest. But I'd rather be the one not being taken advantage of.

No that's not what I said. I love Obama and his administration. It's the Republicans I want out of office. They've been a "do nothing" congress since 2008, and it's time to get those wall-street loving bastards out of office. As for literally holding a gun, if that's what it takes, then that's what it takes. But you'd be surprised at how many military men are thinking the exact same thing. Or have you not heard that they (GOP) are wanting to cut military pensions and Vet disability compensation? Would that be enough to entice you, the Vet, to take a stand against those who would consider doing such a thing? Your choice.


And so, you close with another lengthy repetition of what you have repeated over and over vouched for almost solely by your opinion. We get it Joe. Most probably have your opinions memorized. Your repetitions do not make them true. You seem to think them absolutely true despite having arrived at them relatively recently. But hey, I just figured out how you can get your share of some of that filthy lucre! You should run for Congress! Yes, you have become a polished liberal and in this forum have demonstrated your mastery of the filibuster. Go for it Joe!

As for your last paragraph, carefully consider this lesson:
Joe...there are no Republicans living at the White House...where you said you would aim your guns. Don't hastily brush this conservative's comment aside now, the White House is the residence of President Barrack H. Obama (D) and family.

The Ft. Hood massacre by Major Hasan demonstrates there are fringe elements in the military that will resort to violence over ideology, but I think the vast majority will not. I have heard liberals version of what the GOP wants to cut. Perhaps you could provide a GOP source so I could consider their comments in total. If true in the cut and dry way you say I will take a stand with a pen, keyboard, phone, ballot...but not a gun.

[Tomret]

Here's the chart that Tomret seems to question. Please take a good look as the data used to make this chart came from the Congressional Budget Office:

Double Click the Image to enlarge:
75

This is nearly the same chart that Ed Shultz uses on his show. Folks the numbers speak for themselves. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why the economy tanked. The top 1 to 2 percent has seen HUGE increases in pay to nearly 300% percent since 1979. The largest increases were in 2000, which dropped temporarily in 2001 due to the WTC attacks, and then all of a sudden spiked to unbelievable levels.

I've pointed out before the impossibility of all income classes being at the same level in 1979. If you believe that I have an ocean front villa in Arizona you might be interested in. If you'll use a straight edge you will see the increase peaked very early in 2000 (Feb. if memory serves) when the dot com bubble burst then dropped sharply. Way back in post 73 after you were blaming Bush I linked to an interactive chart and explained how those income variations parallel the state of the economy. But, thanks for that chart. I had seen other sources that used the bottom and middle fifth in comparison to the 1% but hadn't seen that one at Mother Jones. I wondered why they chose those two, I think I've discovered why. At Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States) the US Census Bureau chart under the heading Quintiles we see the lower fifth had NO wage earners and ZERO income! How convenient! If you want to see a real income disparity run that chart backward to the late 19th early 20th century and you will see... well, actually you won't see because your computer monitor is not nearly tall enough, but you get the point.

Let me note that I do see much wrong within government with all the corruption and all. Not to mention 50,000 page bills that nobody reads and couldn't understand if they did. There is growing awareness of citizens and I hope all will become more active and hold reps accountable. And in the corporate world I take great exception to execs getting rewarded even when they do a poor job, golden parachutes for example. The latest example are the Fannie May execs getting millions in bonuses. I remember when US Air was in bankruptcy they applied to the court for permission to award huge bonuses to the execs that were in charge when the company went under! I don't remember for sure, but I think permission was granted. If I was a rich guy with a chauffeur that kept driving my limo off cliffs I'd be looking for a new driver! We had a plant manager - young smart guy with great future - that got caught having an affair with a line supervisor. Poor guy had to make do with a severance of just a few million. Reward should be based on performance.

I'm about tired of :sFun_banghead2: for now. While this stuff is fresh in my head I'm going to try to collate these facts into a message for my reps. I'll close with a message from the doo-wop generation to the occupy wall street bunch:

Stop blocking the working folks from their jobs and...

<span style="">
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbGthv-dJp4

[TheForgiven]

My new saying....

"One persons American Dream achievement should never result in even one American nightmare......." Joe Rehby 2011

If you believe in these true words, then you are not far from a Christian's perspective. :winking0071: Love others as you would have to love you.

Nobody wants a free hand-out. All we're asking for is the right to work for "LIVING" wages; not "MINIMAL" wages.

GO 99!!!! Next is Congress! Get Ready Mr. House Speaker Painer! Can you feel your power slipping away? Let's just hope that this decade finally brings an end to the corruption and oppression of Greedy Capitalism.

Joe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

My new saying....

"One persons American Dream achievement should never result in even one American nightmare......." Joe Rehby 2011

If you believe in these true words, then you are not far from a Christian's perspective. :winking0071: Love others as you would have to love you.

Nobody wants a free hand-out. All we're asking for is the right to work for "LIVING" wages; not "MINIMAL" wages.

GO 99!!!! Next is Congress! Get Ready Mr. House Speaker Painer! Can you feel your power slipping away? Let's just hope that this decade finally brings an end to the corruption and oppression of Greedy Capitalism.

Joe
That's a great saying Joe. The way some people have pursued the American dream has indeed been a nightmare for many others.

But I would say that anyone who "believes in these true words" are not far from the universal heart of all morality - the Golden Rule - which is not unique to any particular religion:

http://www.jcu.edu/philosophy/gensler/poster.gif

Unfortunately, some people think they want a free handout, but I think that's a disordered way of thinking since we are social organisms with a built-in desire to "give back" to others. And we have mirror neurons which make us feel what happens to others as if it were happening to ourselves. Thus, the Golden Rule, and all morality, has a foundation in our biology and neurophysiology.

Richard

PS: Nice avatar! It's good to see your smiling face!

[TheForgiven]

Thanks for the complement on the quote. A lot of people like it so far. Too bad I can't make any money from it. :lol:

As for my avatar, I figured it was about time for me to reveal myself to the world....at least the Biblewheel world. Now everyone has a face to see when they read my posts.... :winking0071:

But it is true. I grow tired of hearing the Republicans accuse Democrats of simply looking for a free hand out. That's not the cast with the 99% percent movement; they're not looking for a free hand-out. They simply want a job; a GOOD job with LIVING wages; not minimal wage.

My former work associates are stuck on the myth that jobs are out there. Sure you could find a job at McDonals, Wal-Mart, K-Mart, etc. But those jobs are designed for young kids paying for college or perhaps earning a little gas and movie money. Those jobs aren't designed to help people live. I know that there are a lot of people who buck the unemployment system, but that's not as the majority of Democrats or Republicans. And I've seen my share of Republicans in the unemployment line bucking the system as well.

It all comes down to this simple truth. Those who seek to get rich, especially from the stock market, are those who depend on other people getting screwed from having to pay high interest rates on their loans or credit cards. Wages comes from hard work. Profit doesn't necessarily come from hard work, but from the work of others....to a certain degree. A doctor works for his money, and because of his extensive education required to become a doctor, I believe he's entitled to his wealth. But a Politician, an Oil CEO, or some other similar type of profiteering, those are people who do not work for a living; they gamble for a living, trusting in their investments to make money. Now I'm not suggesting that investments are bad. What I am saying is that most investors are bad because they're out to get rich from loaning their money to Wal-Street, with the hopes of getting rich, especially from hedge funds (which should be illegal).

The American dream should never cause others a nightmare. If I have to work day in, and day out, not only to pay back my borrowed money, but to ensure the share holders get more than their fair cut, then this shows that the product I purchased from the loan was not worth it. And that's the problem; products and services are so expensive these days, that nearly everything had to be purchased from credit; even a television or DVD player. And that's what investors, like sleezy snakes, want society to depend on; taking out loans. That's how they make their profit. It's like me loaning someone $10 bucks but demanding $40 bucks in return. Or its like me selling my car for $1,000 bucks, but the person wanting to buy the car, borrows money from me to buy my car. So I profit from the sell of my car, and also from the loan I provided. In the end, the person ends up paying too much for my car, from its bloated sell price, and bloated loan value.

OK...gabbed too much again. :lol:

Take it easy.

Joe

[heb13-13]

Just saw this: Seems to go with this discussion. I think she is one of the fortunate ones.

COMMENTARY | When former Speaker Newt Gingrich advised the Occupy Wall Street protestors to take a bath and get a job, as reported by the Weekly Standard, (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=144leffmg/EXP=1324479574/**http%3A//www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/gingrich-occupy-wall-street-go-get-job-right-after-you-take-bath_609253.html) screams of outrage were heard throughout the land. But one occupier, Tracy Postert, seems to have taken that advice.

According to the New York Post, (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=13jhhmrr6/EXP=1324479574/**http%3A//www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/occupier_gets_an_occupation_o8x0D8DkpsWB60rSMhcEgP ) Postert was at the Occupy Wall Street site at Zuccotti Park, having given up landing a job in her chosen field of study. She started her career as a malcontent by holding up signs that read: "Reagan Sucks" and "I Vote After the Revolution."

Then she decided to make a change in strategy. She made a new sign that read, "Ph.D. Biomedical Scientist seeking full time employment." On the back it said, "Ask Me for My Resume."

This caught the attention of Wayne Kaufmann, a financial analyst, who had to walk by the protest encampment every day on his way to work. Intrigued by the message Postert was sending, he took a resume and proceeded on.
The next day, Kaufman emailed Postert to have her come into his firm, John Thomas Financial Brokerage for an interview. In due course she was offered a job as a junior financial analyst specializing in medical companies. The starting pay is low, but in time she could earn six figures. Training in financial analysis is included.

What lesson should be derived from this story?

No doubt many of Postert's fellow occupiers will sneer at her for selling out and taking money from an evil Wall Street firm. Postert herself confessed to reservations, but the rent does not pay itself, after all, especially in New York.

Postert should be congratulated in displaying some entrepreneurial spirit. Whatever her original motives for joining the Occupy Wall Street movement, she clearly realized quickly that the idea of camping out and creating a health hazard in the middle of New York was a futile gesture. So, taking note that she was in a high traffic area, she took charge of her own fate and sought work once again in a unique and creative way.

Kaufmann should certainly be congratulated for taking a chance on hiring an occupier. But clearly he was impressed by Postert's spirit in the midst of all that whining. So he interviewed her, then hired her.

Even in the middle of economic malaise and popular nihilism, such a story cannot fail to be uplifting.

http://news.yahoo.com/occupy-wall-street-protestor-took-gingrichs-advice-got-213800809.html

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Just saw this: Seems to go with this discussion. I think she is one of the fortunate ones.

COMMENTARY | When former Speaker Newt Gingrich advised the Occupy Wall Street protestors to take a bath and get a job, as reported by the Weekly Standard, (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=144leffmg/EXP=1324479574/**http%3A//www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/gingrich-occupy-wall-street-go-get-job-right-after-you-take-bath_609253.html) screams of outrage were heard throughout the land. But one occupier, Tracy Postert, seems to have taken that advice.

According to the New York Post, (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=13jhhmrr6/EXP=1324479574/**http%3A//www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/occupier_gets_an_occupation_o8x0D8DkpsWB60rSMhcEgP ) Postert was at the Occupy Wall Street site at Zuccotti Park, having given up landing a job in her chosen field of study. She started her career as a malcontent by holding up signs that read: "Reagan Sucks" and "I Vote After the Revolution."

Then she decided to make a change in strategy. She made a new sign that read, "Ph.D. Biomedical Scientist seeking full time employment." On the back it said, "Ask Me for My Resume."

This caught the attention of Wayne Kaufmann, a financial analyst, who had to walk by the protest encampment every day on his way to work. Intrigued by the message Postert was sending, he took a resume and proceeded on.
The next day, Kaufman emailed Postert to have her come into his firm, John Thomas Financial Brokerage for an interview. In due course she was offered a job as a junior financial analyst specializing in medical companies. The starting pay is low, but in time she could earn six figures. Training in financial analysis is included.

What lesson should be derived from this story?

No doubt many of Postert's fellow occupiers will sneer at her for selling out and taking money from an evil Wall Street firm. Postert herself confessed to reservations, but the rent does not pay itself, after all, especially in New York.

Postert should be congratulated in displaying some entrepreneurial spirit. Whatever her original motives for joining the Occupy Wall Street movement, she clearly realized quickly that the idea of camping out and creating a health hazard in the middle of New York was a futile gesture. So, taking note that she was in a high traffic area, she took charge of her own fate and sought work once again in a unique and creative way.

Kaufmann should certainly be congratulated for taking a chance on hiring an occupier. But clearly he was impressed by Postert's spirit in the midst of all that whining. So he interviewed her, then hired her.

Even in the middle of economic malaise and popular nihilism, such a story cannot fail to be uplifting.

http://news.yahoo.com/occupy-wall-street-protestor-took-gingrichs-advice-got-213800809.html
Hey Rick,

Glad you posted this. Who doesn't like a story of someone taking initiative and being successful? I think it is very inspirational. But on the other hand, I wouldn't want to obscure the very real problem of the 1% exposed by the occupy movement. It is a crime what they get away with. Walking away with millions of dollars in bonuses after ruining people's lives and the economy.

[heb13-13]

Hey Rick,

Glad you posted this. Who doesn't like a story of someone taking initiative and being successful? I think it is very inspirational. But on the other hand, I wouldn't want to obscure the very real problem of the 1% exposed by the occupy movement. It is a crime what they get away with. Walking away with millions of dollars in bonuses after ruining people's lives and the economy.

Yes, I totally agree with you. AIG, Goldman-Sachs, Chase, BAC, CITI, etc, etc. My point has always been that the government protected them, nay, bailed them out (including European Banks) and continues to do so. They play a funny game with all of us "little people", don't they. They want us to think that they are on our side. By the end of this year we will be 16 trillion in debt (that does not included unfunded mandates. That's approaching 200 trillion buckaroos) and by next election we should be around 17 trillion in debt.

I'm glad she got a job with Wall Street.

Buckle up!!

Rick

[TheForgiven]

Hey Rick,

Glad you posted this. Who doesn't like a story of someone taking initiative and being successful? I think it is very inspirational. But on the other hand, I wouldn't want to obscure the very real problem of the 1% exposed by the occupy movement. It is a crime what they get away with. Walking away with millions of dollars in bonuses after ruining people's lives and the economy.

Finally, someone who gets it! :lol: I've been trying to crack these nuts for a while. No pun intended guys...just being metaphorically funny.

Wall Street, Big Banks, crooked Political Lobbyist's, have gotten away with murder. They are extorting and stealing millions of tax-payer dollars, and then expect the working class to pay for it. Here's one example. Bank of America received billions of dollars in bail-out money, from both Bush and Obama. This was to cover the debt. lost on all the foreclosed homes, AS WELL AS, provide enough revenue for the banks to work with folks struggling to pay for their homes. But is this what happened? NO! They are STILL foreclosing on people's homes in order to get them out, allow investors to buy these foreclosed homes DIRT CHEAP, and then turn them for higher profit; both the bank and the investor make $$$! Now legally, the foreclosed homes SHOULD belong to the Federal Government seeing that they accepted billions of dollars of bail-out money to pay for these homes. But instead of using it to help people, they're using it to pay million dollar bonuses, AND investing that money in other shares such as Big Oil, or other financial institutions.

How much will it take to convince the blind guided minds of the Conservative quacks before they begin to wake-up and smell the coffee. We (as a former conservative) have been lied to for decades, and have been brain washed by an idealogy that was baseless, fact-less, and very meaningless to any form of truth; just look at the numbers as they speak for themselves. The rich (top 2%) have extorted so much money out of the economy (about 60% percent of America's capital) and left the working class, small businesses, and the Federal government fighting over the remaining 40% percent of America's capital. That's not enough money to sustain America's employment, economy, or government.

I do not care how many degrees you have, or how much science one needs to study before they begin to see the truth. But it is IMPOSSIBLE to accumulate billions of dollars of wealth WITHOUT screwing somebody beneath you, be it your customers, your employee's, OR even the Federal Government.

And you can't tell me that 99% percent of the American population don't get it. The Republicans are idiots for trying to protect a very small group of people. And what kills me even more is how the Conservatives hold the bible in one hand, yet curse it with their left hand held out demanding more money.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

Does anyone remember basic economics class? Don't you remember them teaching that the national debt is just a very large number that will never get paid down? Sure debt is bad, but that's something that will never ever be paid in full; it's just not possible. Technically, it's a fake number that just looks very big, but there is no time-limit for the debt to be paid off. So it never makes any sense for someone to say, "the national debit is too big and we're passing the bill to our grand children's future". That is a problem that will never go away.

Besides, I've stated this several times now. The national debt is not something that impacts the economy. In fact, driving up the national debt, while denoting a lack of federal funding, actually creates jobs. Firemen, teachers, police officers, military, construction workers, DMV, VA, etc. all requires people to do these jobs, and these people need a pay-check like anyone else. So reducing the debt can only be done by two ways; cutting jobs, or raising taxes. Unfortunately, the greedy bastards sitting at the top don't want to pay more taxes; they're stuck on their Microsoft Power Point slides denoting higher profits, with a goal to increase their profits every single year, and they sure as heck refuse to pay a little more than what they have been. Oh, but now they want to take from the ones who don't have enough to being with; the middle class.

Looks like the middle class will be paying higher taxes for 2012. Guess this means even more people will be unemployed.

Now with this kind of outlook, why would anyone sober and in their right mind, want to vote Republican? There's honestly no benefit in it; at least not for all of society. Logic alone suggests that the needs of the many, out weight the needs of the few. And the few are doing everything they can to obstruct our right to vote (which is not even free anymore), and buy-out Political leaders to ensure their nest eggs continue to have plenty of golden eggs from mother goose!

It's a proven fact that you cannot balance the Federal Budget off the backs of the working class. And you can't reduce the size of government employment as that would only make things much worse. The only solutions are for the rich to start hiring more people, paying hire wages, and thereby would increase federal revenue through taxes paid from higher incomes. This is the only way, or the rich will just have to suck it up, and pay their fair share of taxes based on the amount of income they generate. And any rich person caught hiding money overseas should be heavily penalized.

Joe

[heb13-13]

Finally, someone who gets it! :lol: I've been trying to crack these nuts for a while. No pun intended guys...just being metaphorically funny.

Wall Street, Big Banks, crooked Political Lobbyist's, have gotten away with murder. They are extorting and stealing millions of tax-payer dollars, and then expect the working class to pay for it. Here's one example. Bank of America received billions of dollars in bail-out money, from both Bush and Obama. This was to cover the debt. lost on all the foreclosed homes, AS WELL AS, provide enough revenue for the banks to work with folks struggling to pay for their homes. But is this what happened? NO! They are STILL foreclosing on people's homes in order to get them out, allow investors to buy these foreclosed homes DIRT CHEAP, and then turn them for higher profit; both the bank and the investor make $$$! Now legally, the foreclosed homes SHOULD belong to the Federal Government seeing that they accepted billions of dollars of bail-out money to pay for these homes. But instead of using it to help people, they're using it to pay million dollar bonuses, AND investing that money in other shares such as Big Oil, or other financial institutions.

How much will it take to convince the blind guided minds of the Conservative quacks before they begin to wake-up and smell the coffee. We (as a former conservative) have been lied to for decades, and have been brain washed by an idealogy that was baseless, fact-less, and very meaningless to any form of truth; just look at the numbers as they speak for themselves. The rich (top 2%) have extorted so much money out of the economy (about 60% percent of America's capital) and left the working class, small businesses, and the Federal government fighting over the remaining 40% percent of America's capital. That's not enough money to sustain America's employment, economy, or government.

I do not care how many degrees you have, or how much science one needs to study before they begin to see the truth. But it is IMPOSSIBLE to accumulate billions of dollars of wealth WITHOUT screwing somebody beneath you, be it your customers, your employee's, OR even the Federal Government.

And you can't tell me that 99% percent of the American population don't get it. The Republicans are idiots for trying to protect a very small group of people. And what kills me even more is how the Conservatives hold the bible in one hand, yet curse it with their left hand held out demanding more money.

Joe

Hi Joe,

The only adjustment that I think you need to make is to stop putting all the blame on one party. They're all in it together all the way up to the White House. In fact the WH is leading the charge. Obama has raised 1 billion clams from Corporate America and Wall Street. Why do you think?

The Dems are trying to protect their "small" group of people, too.

I know you see it, you'd have to be blind not to.

Michael Moore was on CNN slamming Obama for his billion in Wall Street donations, but he is a first rate hypocrite, don't you think?

I'm glad the Lord is on our side.

Have a great day,
Rick

[TheForgiven]

Hi Joe,

The only adjustment that I think you need to make is to stop putting all the blame on one party. They're all in it together all the way up to the White House. In fact the WH is leading the charge. Obama has raised 1 billion clams from Corporate America and Wall Street. Why do you think?

The Dems are trying to protect their "small" group of people, too.

I know you see it, you'd have to be blind not to.

Michael Moore was on CNN slamming Obama for his billion in Wall Street donations, but he is a first rate hypocrite, don't you think?

I'm glad the Lord is on our side.

Have a great day,
Rick

I blame both sides. It's not as though the Democrats are innocent in letting the jobless rate get so high. Nancy Pelosi (former house speaker) was identified as profiting from insider trading; something that should be very illegal.

Now although I blame both sides, at this point in time, there is only one side who actually care about the poor and the middle class. The Republican's could care less if you we died; all they care about is their small little group of very wealth extortionists. I will never support the group who calls themselves, "Job Creator's". With 10 years of George Bush tax breaks, they've created ZERO jobs, and pushed many of them overseas. Then they have the gall to wine about having to pay more taxes, which in truth, is nothing more than chump change. And it amazes me that these rich boys wine like little babies for being asked to pay a few percentage points more, which doesn't even come close to putting a dent in their pockets. So instead of having to pay more, they want "smaller government". This means they want to balance the budget on the backs of the working class families, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, enjoy continued tax breaks which do nothing for the working class people of America. So why should the budge be balanced if the very ones who caused the budget to excel so deep into depth, not be asked to pay their fair share?

The GOP like to use catch phrases with a hidden truth. "Smaller Government" to them means reducing Public Sector jobs. Yet we don't see any of them EVER bringing up their income, and how much they're costing the public. Did you know that a Politician gets a life-time pension (100% percent of his annual pay) AND free health care for serving only four years in office? I could understand the President receiving this kind of entitlement. But House Representative, or Senator? That's not fair at all! And most of them average roughly $145,000.00 dollars annually, not counting their self-paid bonuses, and their multiple corporate jet (or military flight) traveling which comes at the cost of the tax payer? We never hear anything about them balancing the budget off of THEIR backs, both Republicans OR Democrats.

And so while I'm upset with both sides, I have to side with the group who does care about working class families, and it's certainly not the Republicans. To them, 378,000 total rich people are more important than the 140,000,000 million people. And why? Because they have more money than everyone else. They've amassed 60% percent of America's capital, and it's just sitting there doing nothing except drawing interest. That's how they continue to grow wealthier by the minute, while the middle class continues to dive deeper into poverty, and all this despite a bad economy.

Both sides are to blame, but there's only one truth that caused the economy to collapse. GREED from Wall Street, GREED from Big Banks, and GREED from Big Oil. Their profits are too expensive for the working class families of America, and it's time to put a stop to this. Something has got to give, and the poor in this country cannot afford to give any more blood. We need jobs, not hand-outs. We need employment, not deployment (pushing jobs overseas). We need investments in the middle class, and not investments in huge corporations or wall street. I promise you, that if big corporations would stop being so greedy, start paying higher wages, and higher more people, watch the magic of our American economy strive again. And in the end, it all benefits the very one's we're asking to help; the rich boys. But if they refuse to help, then taxing them is the only way. And I mean tax them heavy. We've got to get the money they have, which is doing nothing beneficial for our country nor our economy, back into the hands of the spenders; the working class families of America. And because they (Corporate America) failed to adequately pay their employees, or higher enough workers, and use the "do more with less" engine for their high profits, the economy crashing has thus become a problem they've engineered, and all with one purpose; to make the best President this country has ever seen, a one term President. George Bush did nothing for this country accept help out Big Oil. He caused the deaths of thousands of soldiers by plunging us into a war with no merits. And all the while, talked trash as though he were serious about hunting Ben Laiden. It took the best President this country has ever seen, yet opposed the most by the vicious right, to hunt down, and kill Ben Laiden.

The only solution to our problems that I can see, is that every single Republican needs to be voted out of office, and out of our Judicial system. And they know their seats are in grave dangers. That's why they've changed the voting laws, to make it harder to vote. I read their instructions and it's worse than filling out a VA claims form. It's absurd! All they're trying to do is the same BS that got George Butch in office; disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of African American voters, and the elderly. I promise you that if a Republican does get elected, they will have stole this election again, as they did in 2001. And it wouldn't surprise me if our nation is plunged into a civil war as a result. I can feel it. It's coming. Let's hope that it doesn't, but it's coming.

Strong middle class, and no poor, equals the strongest country on the face of this planet. It's a fact.

Joe

[heb13-13]

I blame both sides. It's not as though the Democrats are innocent in letting the jobless rate get so high. Nancy Pelosi (former house speaker) was identified as profiting from insider trading; something that should be very illegal.

Now although I blame both sides, at this point in time, there is only one side who actually care about the poor and the middle class. The Republican's could care less if you we died; all they care about is their small little group of very wealth extortionists. I will never support the group who calls themselves, "Job Creator's". With 10 years of George Bush tax breaks, they've created ZERO jobs, and pushed many of them overseas. Then they have the gall to wine about having to pay more taxes, which in truth, is nothing more than chump change. And it amazes me that these rich boys wine like little babies for being asked to pay a few percentage points more, which doesn't even come close to putting a dent in their pockets. So instead of having to pay more, they want "smaller government". This means they want to balance the budget on the backs of the working class families, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, enjoy continued tax breaks which do nothing for the working class people of America. So why should the budge be balanced if the very ones who caused the budget to excel so deep into depth, not be asked to pay their fair share?

The GOP like to use catch phrases with a hidden truth. "Smaller Government" to them means reducing Public Sector jobs. Yet we don't see any of them EVER bringing up their income, and how much they're costing the public. Did you know that a Politician gets a life-time pension (100% percent of his annual pay) AND free health care for serving only four years in office? I could understand the President receiving this kind of entitlement. But House Representative, or Senator? That's not fair at all! And most of them average roughly $145,000.00 dollars annually, not counting their self-paid bonuses, and their multiple corporate jet (or military flight) traveling which comes at the cost of the tax payer? We never hear anything about them balancing the budget off of THEIR backs, both Republicans OR Democrats.

And so while I'm upset with both sides, I have to side with the group who does care about working class families, and it's certainly not the Republicans. To them, 378,000 total rich people are more important than the 140,000,000 million people. And why? Because they have more money than everyone else. They've amassed 60% percent of America's capital, and it's just sitting there doing nothing except drawing interest. That's how they continue to grow wealthier by the minute, while the middle class continues to dive deeper into poverty, and all this despite a bad economy.

Both sides are to blame, but there's only one truth that caused the economy to collapse. GREED from Wall Street, GREED from Big Banks, and GREED from Big Oil. Their profits are too expensive for the working class families of America, and it's time to put a stop to this. Something has got to give, and the poor in this country cannot afford to give any more blood. We need jobs, not hand-outs. We need employment, not deployment (pushing jobs overseas). We need investments in the middle class, and not investments in huge corporations or wall street. I promise you, that if big corporations would stop being so greedy, start paying higher wages, and higher more people, watch the magic of our American economy strive again. And in the end, it all benefits the very one's we're asking to help; the rich boys. But if they refuse to help, then taxing them is the only way. And I mean tax them heavy. We've got to get the money they have, which is doing nothing beneficial for our country nor our economy, back into the hands of the spenders; the working class families of America. And because they (Corporate America) failed to adequately pay their employees, or higher enough workers, and use the "do more with less" engine for their high profits, the economy crashing has thus become a problem they've engineered, and all with one purpose; to make the best President this country has ever seen, a one term President. George Bush did nothing for this country accept help out Big Oil. He caused the deaths of thousands of soldiers by plunging us into a war with no merits. And all the while, talked trash as though he were serious about hunting Ben Laiden. It took the best President this country has ever seen, yet opposed the most by the vicious right, to hunt down, and kill Ben Laiden.

The only solution to our problems that I can see, is that every single Republican needs to be voted out of office, and out of our Judicial system. And they know their seats are in grave dangers. That's why they've changed the voting laws, to make it harder to vote. I read their instructions and it's worse than filling out a VA claims form. It's absurd! All they're trying to do is the same BS that got George Butch in office; disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of African American voters, and the elderly. I promise you that if a Republican does get elected, they will have stole this election again, as they did in 2001. And it wouldn't surprise me if our nation is plunged into a civil war as a result. I can feel it. It's coming. Let's hope that it doesn't, but it's coming.

Strong middle class, and no poor, equals the strongest country on the face of this planet. It's a fact.

Joe

Hope you have a good rest of the year and a better new year than 2011.

Blessings to you,
Rick

[TheForgiven]

Hope you have a good rest of the year and a better new year than 2011.

Blessings to you,
Rick

Thank you my friend. I appreciate your comments, and the same to you. My grudge against the Air Force won't last too long; I hope. I'm upset with them in how they've treated me, and forced me to work 60 to 70 hours a week with lost vacation time, meanwhile those who were once below me progressing up in the ranks for doing little work. Ever heard of "Adams Equity Theory"? I was not treated with equality, despite my physical injuries. And seeing the rich oppress the poor really upsets me, because that's how military members are treated; like nothing but statistical numbers on a Excel Spreadsheet that must be "used and abused" for the sake of the leaders above you, and for their own rewarding, and glory. I know that the outside is the same, and it's very upsetting to me.

When will our Nation ever learn to work together? I don't see any miracles coming anytime soon. At the same time, our oppression is a tool used to help us grow into maturity. I know we're supposed to pray for the rich who have become our enemies in this society. But at this point, it's very hard for me to do so.

My prayers are for every unfortunate person in this country who lost their home to because of predatorial behavior from wall street and big banks. My prayers are for the soldiers who died because of piss-poor politics, ESPECIALLY from that hell-bound Bush family. They deserve all the condemnation awaiting them at their judgment. And this goes to all government leaders who's only way of sustaining their wealth is by passing oppressive legislation designed to put more money into their pockets; especially this new legislation that infringes on our right to vote. We have to provide a birth certificate just to obtain the voter ID! Most of us do not even have that! This is nothing more than a ploy to decrease the Democratic votes from African American's, Hispanics, the elderly, and the poor! How could anyone continue to vote for a party (Republican) that even wants to force young children in poor neighborhoods to sweep and mop floors? They should be focussed on obtaining an education, and not cleaning up the schools. Granted their might be some benefit from this, but they have enough chores to do at home. Let their parents teach them about earning money; it's not the job of government to force young kids to do such a thing. And it's not as though school janitor's are paid a lot of money.

God help us, I pray Thee!

Joe

[Brother Les]

Joe:
Does anyone remember basic economics class? Don't you remember them teaching that the national debt is just a very large number that will never get paid down? Sure debt is bad, but that's something that will never ever be paid in full; it's just not possible. Technically, it's a fake number that just looks very big, but there is no time-limit for the debt to be paid off. So it never makes any sense for someone to say, "the national debit is too big and we're passing the bill to our grand children's future". That is a problem that will never go away.

Besides, I've stated this several times now. The national debt is not something that impacts the economy. In fact, driving up the national debt, while denoting a lack of federal funding, actually creates jobs. Firemen, teachers, police officers, military, construction workers, DMV, VA, etc. all requires people to do these jobs, and these people need a pay-check like anyone else. So reducing the debt can only be done by two ways; cutting jobs, or raising taxes. Unfortunately, the greedy bastards sitting at the top don't want to pay more taxes; they're stuck on their Microsoft Power Point slides denoting higher profits, with a goal to increase their profits every single year, and they sure as heck refuse to pay a little more than what they have been. Oh, but now they want to take from the ones who don't have enough to being with; the middle class.

Looks like the middle class will be paying higher taxes for 2012. Guess this means even more people will be unemployed.

Joe, it seems that we went to two completely different economic classes. The one I went to said that if/when the debt of a country gets to high that the economic viability of said country will collapse. That collapse is happening all across Europe and and Germany has only a short time (6-10 months) to hold the Euro Zone together. paper assets are becoming worthless all across Europe. Greece is NOW having to sell off National Treasures (Islands and other Hard assets) in order to comply with European Banks to get any type of loans. Hard collateral for a debt crisis that will only end in more misery. This is coming to the United States at an every quickening pace.

One of your solutions is to 'hire' more Firemen, Teachers, police officers and 'Military'? These are ALL Tax supported occupations. John Q. Public Can Not support his own house hold, let alone 'Public Servants'..... In the Days to come there will be LESS Firemen, Teachers, Police Officers and Military.

Your 'Economics' teacher seems to be part of the Liberal Keyesington Economics of growing and expanding with NO solid base to hold it up. Ours and most of the worlds economies are doomed to collapse do to it own dead weight of debt. Buy guns and ammo, because in the near future you will need them to protect your own from 'the police and military'.

[heb13-13]

Your 'Economics' teacher seems to be part of the Liberal Keyesington Economics of growing and expanding with NO solid base to hold it up. Ours and most of the worlds economies are doomed to collapse do to it own dead weight of debt. Buy guns and ammo, because in the near future you will need them to protect your own from 'the police and military'.

Keynesian ecomonics never worked. There is not one instance of it.

Whenever you print money, people look for a refuge, gold,' says Rogers. He points out that government will blame its mistakes on the press and the people rather than itself.

Comment: This was an act on behalf of O'Reilly to appeal to his dumb down audience to try and make it seems like this 'stuff' really isn't all that critical or important...keep leading the sheep over the cliff Bill.

"Sound Money"? What is that? :eek:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A17lR53YeSg

[TheForgiven]

Joe, it seems that we went to two completely different economic classes. The one I went to said that if/when the debt of a country gets to high that the economic viability of said country will collapse. That collapse is happening all across Europe and and Germany has only a short time (6-10 months) to hold the Euro Zone together. paper assets are becoming worthless all across Europe. Greece is NOW having to sell off National Treasures (Islands and other Hard assets) in order to comply with European Banks to get any type of loans. Hard collateral for a debt crisis that will only end in more misery. This is coming to the United States at an every quickening pace.

One of your solutions is to 'hire' more Firemen, Teachers, police officers and 'Military'? These are ALL Tax supported occupations. John Q. Public Can Not support his own house hold, let alone 'Public Servants'..... In the Days to come there will be LESS Firemen, Teachers, Police Officers and Military.

Your 'Economics' teacher seems to be part of the Liberal Keyesington Economics of growing and expanding with NO solid base to hold it up. Ours and most of the worlds economies are doomed to collapse do to it own dead weight of debt. Buy guns and ammo, because in the near future you will need them to protect your own from 'the police and military'.

Government debt does not directly have an effect society except if/when taxes are increased to pay for the debt. The only way or reason it would is if there were a term-limit to this debt that had to be paid off, or suffer the loss of what ever asset the debt was being paid for. For instance, you and I have a home mortgage with a term-limit. If this mortgage goes into default, we lose our home. The government, on the other hand, is not engaged in a type of debt that results in losing an asset such as a home. What ends up happening is vital programs required to run our nation are not funded, resulting in massive job losses; hence, a decline to our economy. The government will always exist, and taxes will always be paid, and the Federal debt will always exist. In essence, it is just a number that does not result in a loss of an asset should the government default on its Federal budget. Therefore, no amount of debt can cause this economy to collapse, because it is not trapped to any type of debt that results in foreclosure or repossession. What does end up happening is the interest rate for that loan is increased. And THERE is the problem! We see this happening with the middle class workers of our nation. American's are paying more interest today than ever before. Banks rely on these high interest rates to capitalize on their investments, in particular, money used for providing home loans, car loan, or general shopping via credit cards. Ever wonder why interest rates on an average credit card are 21% percent or higher? A $500 dollar balance could easily be translated into several thousands of dollars if the user pays the minimum payments. That's how Wall Street and Big Banks make their excessive profits. It's like me loaning you $5 bucks, but wanting $500 bucks in return. This is what contributes to inflation, which is what we're suffering from right now.

Another problem is when we started borrowing money from China. Because our so called "credit score" has been dropped, China will most likely demand higher interest on their payments. But all the government needs to do is print money, and this practice is nothing new. What is the real reason for inflation? Is it not over-bloated prices?

If the government printed out a million dollars for every working class family, our economy would BOOM so fast and hard, and everyone would enjoy life for about 8 to 10 years. What's the problem? A debt free society takes away wealth from the top 2% percent, and from big banks who rely on interest rates to secure their profits. It also removes the one thing they cherish the most; CONTROL! The "Think Tanks" have meeting after meeting trying to scheme up the worst scam possible to rake in huge profits. Add investors to this equation, who demand high yields from their investments, and you've got a society trapped in debt while rich people quit work and live off on their interest. The "Think Tanks" have one goal; to make as much money as possible, and with more profits with each passing year. The only way to make more money is by keeping people trapped in debt. Home mortgages, and credit cards are their largest weapons used to keep people in debt, and thereby enabling big banks and its share holders to live very comfortable lives off the backs of its consumers. These are those who rely on their investments to work for them, so that they themselves do not have to work, as investors are paid relatively large dividends. An example of large yields is with Nancy Pelosi. Her and her husband invested $100,000.00 thousand dollars in a credit card company. Their investment yielded them more than $1,000,000.00 dollars. How was this possible? High interest rates being paid by credit card holders. This is yet one example of why the economy is tanking; interest rates are too high, borrowing money has gotten too damn expensive, and investors are asking way to much for their money.

Another problem faced by our society has to do with the Republicans market manipulation. The type of economy that Republican's rely heavily upon is supply control. They believe in a "low supply" concept because supply shortages create higher prices. One example is to control the growth of certain crops. Farmers receive government subsidies to "NOT" grow certain crops, in order to decrease supply. A decrease in supply allows them to manipulate the market. And a manipulated market allows them to raise prices. We've seen this happen time and again, especially with Big Oil. Products that can be controlled, and are also widely needed by a society, enables owning corporations to usurp far too much control over the market. And thus, investors roll in and build hedge funds around these products (especially in Oil), and then fabricate a shortage in order to raise prices.

Now the governments debt has no term limit, and therefore cannot harm an economical system. The numbers grow, and grow, and grow, yet it will not have an impact on the economy because it isn't something that ever has to be paid off. That's because the government will always exist, unless of course a nation is destroyed or something. But you and I will not always exist, and so our debts are time-limited, and thus results in high interest rates which the government does not have to pay.

I remember the teacher telling us that the numbers used to calculate the Federal debt is so high that it is in essence an impossible number. He wasn't implying that the debt isn't real, but that the number itself is too large to be conceived as real, and in truth, will never get paid down. Even when we hear phrases such as, "tax surplus", this didn't mean that the debt is paid down. It just means that the government is receiving more tax dollars than what it is annually budgeted for.

But to suggest that the economy will collapse if the Federal Debt gets to high, is baseless, and non-factual. I know money is supposed to be backed by gold, or some other form of asset. But logically, if the government printed enough money to pay off the debt, there still remains only one place it will end up....the top 2% percent. THERE is your problem. The flow of money goes straight to the top with not enough of it flowing back down. The only ways for the economy to return to a safe balance is for the top 2% percent to spend more money, or pay more taxes. That's the only way.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

One of your solutions is to 'hire' more Firemen, Teachers, police officers and 'Military'? These are ALL Tax supported occupations. John Q. Public Can Not support his own house hold, let alone 'Public Servants'..... In the Days to come there will be LESS Firemen, Teachers, Police Officers and Military.

You're missing the big picture my friend. These jobs are vital and necessary. Look at what happened to Texas this past summer? They did not have enough firemen to control and contain the massive wild fires.

The solution to getting extorted money from the top 2% percent is to tax them heavily so that that money could be used for what THEY are supposed to be doing; create jobs. Yes these jobs are not based from a profitable business, but then again it is. Someone has to pave those roads, build those bridges, teach our young, protect our society, enforce the laws of the land, etc. And this doesn't come from capital gains or financial investments yielding what you require as "profit". Taxes are just that; TAXES. And it's a very old system of government used since the creation of the very first man-made government. What's so bad about taxes? Nothing.

Now in speaking of profit, why are American workers not profiting from their labor? Because the top 2% percent have hoarded most of America's profit for themselves, by failing to pay good wages, failing to hire more people, and failing to create more jobs. They instead (in their greed) choose to retain the "seed in the barn" for their own profit. This directly impacts the economy, and results in its weakness.

So if they (the top 2%) refuse to do what they are getting paid to do (create jobs and middle class wealth), then the government has to step in and rely on taxing them enough to create government jobs, taking their extorted profits, to put money back into the economy in the form of jobs. Middle class working families are the very ones who keep any economy alive, seeing that they spend nearly 100% percent of their income on the cost of living, and on shopping and leisure. The top 2% percent are not spending enough money to sustain the economy; sure they spend large whole-dollar amounts, but not enough to sustain the economy. Thus, the only solution, because they have failed to do what they've been subsidized to do, is to tax them. And those taxes create badly needed government jobs (Public Sector Jobs), which consists of middle class workers who will "spend" that money in the economy, and thus result in a thriving economy.

Ronald Reagon did this, and it worked fantastically well, as did Bill Clinton. George Bush gave these rich people too much in tax breaks without figuring out how they were going to pay for it. All you ever hear Republicans talk about is paying for their tax breaks by cutting Public Sector jobs; this means firing people and placing them in the unemployment line. Cutting jobs results in less money being spent, and thus contributes to a weakened economy. Low wages paid by large businesses results in "zero" disposable income, when you factor in the ever-increasing cost of living, and ALSO weakens the economy.

SO, in a nut shell, why is this economy so weak? Because it does not have enough disposable money, in relation to its population, to sustain itself. Where is this money at? The top 2% percent. How can we get that money back into the hands of the spenders? By taking it away from the Investors, who caused our problems in the first place, in the form of penalties or taxes. It's the right thing to do, especially when more than 50% percent of their accumulated wealth came from rip-off wages, high interest rates, tax evasion, hedge funds, and Wall Street.

People are more important than the ideals of the rich, who say, "This is my money, and so don't tell me how to spend it". NO, it's not your money to keep, but to use. And any society requires that you "use" that money for the benefit of everyone. Building your own barn to store your own wheat, while sharing nothing with everyone else, leads to a very poor outcome. My friends? THAT is why our economy is bad, and THAT is why the Federal Deficit is so high, among other reasons, notwithstanding bail-outs, expensive military technology, and so forth.

Joe

[heb13-13]

This is Ron Paul's Audit the Fed Bill.

209

[TheForgiven]

This is Ron Paul's Audit the Fed Bill.

209

It is true that money loses its value when too much is printed. But value is also lost when loans contain excessive interest rates. If I loan you $5 bucks, and demand you to pay $200 bucks, the cost of the $5 bucks becomes inflated, and thus loses its true value. Merely printing money is not necessarily the real reason for its lost of value; high interest rate loans also devalue the dollar, which is one reason why Wall Street is being bashed so much.

As for Ron Paul, the man is a racists, heartless, and makes his profit from the internet. He raised millions of dollars in a single day, so he's got nothing to complain about or to accuse the government of wasting money. It's not like he's earning a profit from the Internet.

Watch this video on Larry King who interviews Ron Paul as he responds to a few of Michael Moore's comments on Capitalism. What does Ron Paul think we should do for someone with no money who has a heart attack? Let's hear the devil speak himself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7myjtY13M8&feature=related

A "Free Market" society sounds good on paper, but without legislation, a free market dominated society can run the economy into the ground. Capitalism works best with a bit of socialism to reduce greed. A free market society only works for those with the most money, leaving the rest to fend for themselves. This also leads to the ever increasing realiziation that unless you're rich, you have very little chance enjoying life. The good old days of working hard in a manufactoring plant, receiving a pay check, and spending time with your family are gone. Now unless you're an Executive, CEO, Politician, or Hedge Fund manager (just to name a few), you are not entitled to a happy healthy life.

Ron Paul believes that people have a right to live, but they are responsible for their own health. Well perhaps he'd like to explain what to do with companies who drastically pollute our air, poison our land and water with toxins, and allow grocery stores to sell food infected with diseases! Should people in a free market society be responsible for their own health when many of our health problems come from pollution, poisoned air and water, and infected foods? And government is supposed to just sit back and let this garbage happen? Ron Paul would seem to think so. But you don't see Germany having this problem. It's reported that Germany has health care for everyone. Why can't we do the same? Are doctors only for the rich? Is medical treatment only for the rich?

Finally, besides the fact that Ron Paul is a racist [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAm2bDfnHaY&feature=related], he's also an opportunist. I wonder just how much in taxes did Ron Paul pay with his Internet contributions. The man thrives on controversy and relies heavily on the Internet to generate his wealth. And this money isn't coming from working class families of America. It's coming from the Rich people who wanted his support from the smaller voices of America (Top 2%) who will use governmental powers to protect them from the rest of society, and allow them (in a free market society) to extort as much money for profit as they can. This means Banks could do what ever they want, Big Oil could do what ever they want, and the very top 2% percent could do what ever they want, and the rest of us who refuse to pay our checks to their inflated service values, can simply just die.

Ron Paul for President? I thank God that this racist pig doesn't have a snow balls chance in hell of being elected!

Joe

[heb13-13]

As for Ron Paul, the man is a racists, heartless, and makes his profit from the internet. He raised millions of dollars in a single day, so he's got nothing to complain about or to accuse the government of wasting money. It's not like he's earning a profit from the Internet.


Sorry, guess I was not being clear. The issue I was trying to bring to you was not the man "Ron Paul", but the Bill to "Audit the Fed".

What do you think about the Bill and for that matter The Federal Reserve??

Best to you,
Rick

[TheForgiven]

Sorry, guess I was not being clear. The issue I was trying to bring to you was not the man "Ron Paul", but the Bill to "Audit the Fed".

What do you think about the Bill and for that matter The Federal Reserve??

Best to you,
Rick

Sure, the government should stop printing money. It's not as though the middle class or the workers are benefiting from it. The money gets spent anyways, and ends up right back in the hands of the people who continue to cause our economical problems; Big Banks and Wall Street.

If their interest rates on loans and lines of credit weren't so high, then the middle class incomes would last much longer and increase our disposable income. The biggest thing that's killing working class families in America is the cost of living. According to an economical report I read a few weeks ago (site forgotten), the cost of living is so high in America that the average workers has to earn between $15 to $20 dollars a hour to survive. But there aren't enough jobs that pay this amount to supply these kinds of jobs for the unemployed. Everyone on the right always exclaims, "There are jobs out there; people are just lazy!" But that's not true. I've been searching for a job in my town now for a month, and only two jobs keep popping up on the internet that pays more than $10 bucks an hour, and that's Internet Networkers. The problem? They required a Masters degree for these positions. Now let's say I decide to go to school, and take out a student loan for this position. In 2 or 3 years, by the time I obtain my degree, and then another 2 to 3 years for a Masters degree, this position may not be available. I then end up paying roughly $25,000 to $35,000 dollars in student loan debts with probably about 3 to 4 percent interest. So guess who ends up profiting from this? The banks or financial institution who provided this loan, on top of the company who requires this degree that invested in shares to provide funding for these loans.

It's not as though companies are demanding higher education for their employee's; they are simply trying to capitalize on student loan debts by mandating these degrees in the first place. If they really wanted their employee's to be trained, they would do as the Air Force does; invest the cost of training their apprentices themselves, knowing that they will be a front-line employee down the road.

Now I hope you see why thousands of College Graduates are upset. They were told that these degrees were important, but when they graduate, those positions are scarce and hard to find. Their are careers with very little promises, and there are careers with high promises. But the careers with high promises are either too expensive to achieve (Doctors, Lawyers, etc), while other careers are just not plenteous enough to satisfy employment-lack demands.

My point is that printing money is a bad thing. But if the government did that, the government would have to lay-off hundreds of thousands of Federal Employee's, out military would weaken, our national security would be derailed, and our society's poverty would climb so high that our nation would suffer the same fate as the Roman Empire; we will collapse.

Thus, in my opinion, and strongest conviction, President Obama and his administration did the right thing. Printing money into the company is called "Prime Pumping", and this is supposed to jump start the economy, and it's working, but very slowly. One reason why our growth is very slow is because of the stubborn attitudes of the top 2% percent. The government is trying to help the economy with Prime Pumping, but large corporations are firing their employee's and pushing jobs overseas. So the government is helping us, while the ones who are called "Job Creators" are outsourcing jobs to China, Mexico, and India for cheaper labor. They complain that American workers are too expensive. Well, American's can settle for lower pay-checks if the government can convince the corporations to stop CAUSING the high cost of living. Big Oil, Electrical Power Plants, and crop production are all examples of market manipulation to increase profits for the share holders, and thus CAUSES the high cost of living. Get the cost of living down, then wages can be more competitive with other countries. But no big corporations is going to scale back any profits; they love the high cost of living because they are the ones capitalizing on our needs.

So what it all boils down to is this fact. RICH PEOPLE are making life too expensive for wage earners. And unless they are willing to settle for millions of dollars, instead of billions of dollars, life will never improve for our nation. They have enough wealth (top 2%) to pay each American citizen a million dollars each. But all we're asking is for fair wages; not a million dollars. We want to work; we want to earn! But we can't when the "Job Creator's" won't reason with us. So that's where "Big Daddy" steps in.

FOUR MORE YEARS OF THE BEST PRESIDENT THIS NATION HAS EVER SEEN! VOTE FOR OBAMA!

I hope to meet him one day.

Joe

[heb13-13]

Sure, the government should stop printing money. It's not as though the middle class or the workers are benefiting from it. The money gets spent anyways, and ends up right back in the hands of the people who continue to cause our economical problems; Big Banks and Wall Street.

And the money was used to bailout foreign banks, too.


If their interest rates on loans and lines of credit weren't so high, then the middle class incomes would last much longer and increase our disposable income. The biggest thing that's killing working class families in America is the cost of living. According to an economical report I read a few weeks ago (site forgotten), the cost of living is so high in America that the average workers has to earn between $15 to $20 dollars a hour to survive. But there aren't enough jobs that pay this amount to supply these kinds of jobs for the unemployed. Everyone on the right always exclaims, "There are jobs out there; people are just lazy!" But that's not true. I've been searching for a job in my town now for a month, and only two jobs keep popping up on the internet that pays more than $10 bucks an hour, and that's Internet Networkers. The problem? They required a Masters degree for these positions. Now let's say I decide to go to school, and take out a student loan for this position. In 2 or 3 years, by the time I obtain my degree, and then another 2 to 3 years for a Masters degree, this position may not be available. I then end up paying roughly $25,000 to $35,000 dollars in student loan debts with probably about 3 to 4 percent interest. So guess who ends up profiting from this? The banks or financial institution who provided this loan, on top of the company who requires this degree that invested in shares to provide funding for these loans.

Student loans is the next bubble to burst. Costs are far out running the cost of inflation. I have my first child in college now and she has been researching the whole student load industry and what she is finding is shocking. She is using the material in her speech class for her speeches on "Why You Should Not Take Out Student Loans". Ironically, her 40 year old speech Professor is still paying on student loans and driving a very old car because he can't afford to buy a new one. He has turned out to be her chief object lesson for her speeches. She has given her other students some great ideas for getting an education without ending up with thousands of dollars of student loans. They want you to take out loans and yet many cannot find jobs, either. Heard Jim Rogers say that a time is coming when you need to know how do actually do something like farm or a trade and that people with MBAs will not be able to get a job.

Jim Rogers - Farmers Will Be Driving Lamborghinis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoW1Keoushc)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoW1Keoushc




It's not as though companies are demanding higher education for their employee's; they are simply trying to capitalize on student loan debts by mandating these degrees in the first place. If they really wanted their employee's to be trained, they would do as the Air Force does; invest the cost of training their apprentices themselves, knowing that they will be a front-line employee down the road.

I don't know about other companies, but mine requires us to get 1 or 2 new certifications each year and they pay for it. We are also required to take industry courses to broaden our knowledge in public sector, banking, oil and gas, automotive, retail and many other sectors since my company sells software to all of them. [/quote]


Now I hope you see why thousands of College Graduates are upset. They were told that these degrees were important, but when they graduate, those positions are scarce and hard to find. Their are careers with very little promises, and there are careers with high promises. But the careers with high promises are either too expensive to achieve (Doctors, Lawyers, etc), while other careers are just not plenteous enough to satisfy employment-lack demands.

I think students are scammed quite a bit and sold a bunch of lies regarding the future. Who runs the student loan program. Private enterprise or the government?

Student Loan Scams 1 - Sallie Mae, Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7OHrVKNIvw&amp;feature=related


Jim Rogers - A Holocaust is Coming (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G_wx5SrpzE&feature=related)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G_wx5SrpzE&amp;feature=related


My point is that printing money is a bad thing. But if the government did that, the government would have to lay-off hundreds of thousands of Federal Employee's, out military would weaken, our national security would be derailed, and our society's poverty would climb so high that our nation would suffer the same fate as the Roman Empire; we will collapse.

Thus, in my opinion, and strongest conviction, President Obama and his administration did the right thing. Printing money into the company is called "Prime Pumping", and this is supposed to jump start the economy, and it's working, but very slowly. One reason why our growth is very slow is because of the stubborn attitudes of the top 2% percent. The government is trying to help the economy with Prime Pumping, but large corporations are firing their employee's and pushing jobs overseas. So the government is helping us, while the ones who are called "Job Creators" are outsourcing jobs to China, Mexico, and India for cheaper labor. They complain that American workers are too expensive. Well, American's can settle for lower pay-checks if the government can convince the corporations to stop CAUSING the high cost of living. Big Oil, Electrical Power Plants, and crop production are all examples of market manipulation to increase profits for the share holders, and thus CAUSES the high cost of living. Get the cost of living down, then wages can be more competitive with other countries. But no big corporations is going to scale back any profits; they love the high cost of living because they are the ones capitalizing on our needs.


Printing money did not work for Japan or Britain, so why would it work for America? Throughout history, when they printed money the best place for someone's assets were in commodities.


Jim Rogers - Printing Money Won't Work


So what it all boils down to is this fact. RICH PEOPLE are making life too expensive for wage earners. And unless they are willing to settle for millions of dollars, instead of billions of dollars, life will never improve for our nation. They have enough wealth (top 2%) to pay each American citizen a million dollars each. But all we're asking is for fair wages; not a million dollars. We want to work; we want to earn! But we can't when the "Job Creator's" won't reason with us. So that's where "Big Daddy" steps in.

FOUR MORE YEARS OF THE BEST PRESIDENT THIS NATION HAS EVER SEEN! VOTE FOR OBAMA!

I hope to meet him one day.

Joe

One friendly suggestion Joe. When one puts so much hope in a mere man, they risk losing their objectivity and ability to see things clearly.

Gerald Celente - USA today - 'It's Fascism plain & simple' (NWO ECONOMICS series) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVVAibgLXQE&feature=related)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVVAibgLXQE&amp;feature=related

All the best,
Rick

[heb13-13]

Joe,

John Boehner is dirty and I can say that because I have not lost my objectivity.

Look at this, but please watch the whole series. The whole system is corrupt and dirty. The governement is not just in bed with Wall Street but certain corporations, too.

Student Loan Scams 1 - Sallie Mae, Part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y850gfa1QBM

Have a great day,
Rick

[TheForgiven]

I ask you all to read this fantastic article. This article confirms my suspicion that this was all planned. Wall Street and Big Banks have been planning to stealing from the middle class since the late 1970's, and began its full-force action in 1999. This also confirms my intense dislike for George W. Bush. And to think I voted for this guy! Man, I'd sure like to have that one back! But it's not as though he were the only one.

http://reallypissedoff.com/comment/reply/93

The facts the author presents are in my opinion, indisputable. This is the reason why I don't listen to the rhetoric from the Republican party; they never offer facts. All they offer are ideals with no true supporting facts to back their case. It's all confusion and they try to make the economy more complicated than what it is. All you have to do is follow the money guys. That alone tells you why our economy is so weak; just look at the rich white man and it will explain everything.

Joe

[heb13-13]

I ask you all to read this fantastic article. This article confirms my suspicion that this was all planned. Wall Street and Big Banks have been planning to stealing from the middle class since the late 1970's, and began its full-force action in 1999. This also confirms my intense dislike for George W. Bush. And to think I voted for this guy! Man, I'd sure like to have that one back! But it's not as though he were the only one.

http://reallypissedoff.com/comment/reply/93

The facts the author presents are in my opinion, indisputable. This is the reason why I don't listen to the rhetoric from the Republican party; they never offer facts. All they offer are ideals with no true supporting facts to back their case. It's all confusion and they try to make the economy more complicated than what it is. All you have to do is follow the money guys. That alone tells you why our economy is so weak; just look at the rich white man and it will explain everything.

Joe

Joe, many have known this for years. Nothing new. The Great Depression and the incredible "wealth shift" of that time was engineered also. Resolution Trust, the Internet Bubble popping, the creation of the Federal Reserve, etc, etc. You should really read a great 100 page book called the "The Naked Capitalist" and "The Way the World Really Works". Very enlightening.

I hope your are not too disappointed when you find out that Obama is a very big part of the "Engineering". But, I guess as long as he is helping you, everything is forgiveable.

It's not just rich white men, bro.

Take care,
Rick

[TheForgiven]

Joe, many have known this for years. Nothing new. The Great Depression and the incredible "wealth shift" of that time was engineered also. Resolution Trust, the Internet Bubble popping, the creation of the Federal Reserve, etc, etc. You should really read a great 100 page book called the "The Naked Capitalist" and "The Way the World Really Works". Very enlightening.

I hope your are not too disappointed when you find out that Obama is a very big part of the "Engineering". But, I guess as long as he is helping you, everything is forgiveable.

It's not just rich white men, bro.

Take care,
Rick

I know that many within the Democratic party are just as guilty as the Republicans. This is why I say that all of the members within the House and the Senate are corrupt; they are all using their positional powers for the sake of monetary gain. But at least the Democrats are trying to fight for the middle class worker. So knowing that I must choose a side, only a fool would vote for a Republican these days. Their "Extractionist" economical concepts have devalued labor, made goods and services too expensive, and are extracting money out of the economy via Wall Street, Big Banks, Big Corporations, and Big Oil.

One thing I've noticed is that the Republicans are not telling the truth when comparing the flow of money to the GDP (Gross Domestic Product). Most products in the United States cost so much that the average working class family has to borrow money to buy those products. Here's an example. Let's say a refrigerator cost $1000 dollars to buy. A customer does not have the money up front to buy it, so he borrows money from the bank, or uses his credit card (which is pretty much the same thing). Because of the interest rate on the money loans, the $1,000 dollar refrigerator ends up costing roughly $3,000 to $6,000 dollars in a 10 to 15 year period, assuming that the person makes the minimum loan payments. Thus, what it cost to borrow money to buy one refrigerator does not match the GDP. I suppose the best way of putting it is this. Borrowing money to buy a single product, which ends up costing enough to buy 2 or 3 more of the same products, makes borrowing money too expensive. But this is no accident. Because of deregulation of Wall Street and loaning practices, Investors have been able to "Extract" money from the economy, due to the fact that nearly every product a family buys for their home are bough by financial loans. My $1,400 dollar John Deer lawn mower is going to take me years to pay back. I could do what I usually did in the past, which was to use my tax refund to buy certain things for my home. But after 12 years of "cash only" purchases, my house still did not have the things I wanted to buy. Buying only a single product or two at the end of each year was possible, but repairing or replacing older products was not easily done. So after paying my vehicles off, and deciding not to buy newer vehicles, and instead using my money to buy things needed for my home, I used my credit card to purchase things for the house; things like my law mower, a trailer, kitchen appliances and utensils, etc. My payments are far cheaper than a car, averaging about $150.00 bucks a month. HOWEVER, with a 12% percent interest rate, it will take me years to pay off a $10,000.00 debt. When I got close to my limit, for the past four months, the bank has been making a charge to my card that I was unaware of. It was called, "Disability Insurance" and "Life Insurance". I did not request these two services, but they just magically showed up on my statement. Now guess what happened. Those two fees put me over the limit, and I thus incurred an "Over-The-Limit" fee of $60.00 dollars, for a service I did not request. And boy it took me four months to get them to cancel this service. SO what should have been a $150 dollar credit card payment, easily turned into a $220 credit card payment. Well, I paid it on time as I tried to get the principal down. But at 12% percent of the remaining balance, very little is applied to the actual principal. Thus, the obvious design of this card is a scam used to keep me trapped in debt. Yes it was my decision to run up this debt, and like a faithful customer, I will pay on them. But you should be able to see that money for money is far too expensive, and the money flowing up to the top does not match the GDP. There's more "MONEY" flowing around the economy than products.

So once again, I must spend the next 4 to 5 years digging myself out of credit card debt, having enjoyed 12 long years of no credit card debt., and also the next 15 to 20 years getting my mortgage paid down. And quite honestly, 30 years on a mortgage is way to long. The bank, even at 4% percent interest, will have obtained its original loan amount in just 10 short years. By the time this house is paid for, assuming I make the normal payments with nothing extra, I will have paid more than $300,000.00 dollars for a $129,000.00 dollar home. EXTRACTIONISM!

Money is too expensive to borrow in this economy, and it's impossible to work your way to the top if you are from a low-income family. Not one single candidate running for the GOP came from a poor family; they are ALL silver spoon pampered, spoiled, adulterous, greedy sinners! If you watched the GOP debate this past weekend, one of the "Twitter" questions was asked,

Have any of you ever experienced a time in your life when you had to make sacrifices between your wants, to the point that you were not even able to pay for your necessities?

Not a single Candidate answered the question. Very few people "work" their way out of poverty, and into a rich life style. The only ones who have been able to do this are Athletes, Hollywood, or Entertainers. But traditional middle class workers do not have a snow balls chance in hell of getting rich; not with our current economical system. And given the fact that the GOP strategy is simply more of the same George Bush tax cuts for those who don't need it, and the fact they want to raise taxes on the middle class, and lay-off Public Employee's, cut Medicaid and Medicare, as well as privatize Social Security for Wall Street to profit from, tells me one thing. ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE who votes for a Republican are either just as greedy as they are, or are the most mis-informed citizens of this country voting for them out of ignorance. And I was the ignorant one for 22 years of my life. Not anymore though. I'll never get sucked back into a party of lies, adultery, greed, and cold hearted "YoYo" mentality. YoYo [Your On Your Own]. If that's how it's going to be, then why doesn't the rich man fight his own foreign battles instead of asking the military to do it for free (free meaning they don't have to pay taxes to support the military or the Vets)? Fight your own freaking wars, and stop expecting someone else to do it for you! If Newt Gingrich had the unlucky displeasure of seeing me face to face, I'd do his wife a huge favor, slap his fat face to the ground, and make him lick and eat the dirt I gave my life to protect. And then I'd charge him for it!

NEWT! If you ever happen to stumble across this post, I've got my eye on you, Mr. Adulterous Glutton! I dare you to come meet me face to face! You brag about making $60,000.00 dollars from a single speech! Well I'd make $10 bucks from a single punch, and I'd be happier than you fat boy!

Joe