The Tabernacle of David

[heb13-13]

Almost two thousand years ago, the Lord Jesus Christ made this great declaration, "I will build My church." Down through the ages He has been building. Unfortunately, man has been building also. And the work of man is always detrimental to the work of God...even when it is done in His name.

In the first century the church was begun among the Jews. It wasn't until Peter preached to Cornelius that there were any Gentile converts. And it wasn't until some Greeks in Antioch believed, that a Gentile church came into being. When Jews from the church in Jerusalem visited Antioch, they began insisting that the Gentile believers in Christ also convert to Judaism in order to be legitimate. Well, the whole complicated issue had to be sorted out with the apostles and elders in Jerusalem, so Paul and Barnabas and others went up for the meeting - perhaps the most important meeting in church history.

At the end of the talk and debate, Peter recounted how the Gentiles were first saved, receiving the Holy Spirit by simply believing the word of the gospel. Their hearts were cleansed by faith without the benefit or the burden of the Mosaic law. Finally, James summed up what the Holy Spirit had been speaking during the meeting -- that the Gentiles who had been saved by faith needed nothing more than what had already been provided by Jesus Christ. When he rendered this judgment, James quoted the following Old Testament scriptures as bearing witness:

"And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." (Acts 15:15-18).

In these amazing Scriptures, James and the Holy Spirit equate the tabernacle of David with the Gentile church. Why the tabernacle of David? Why not the tabernacle of Moses? Why not Solomon's temple?

Because in the tabernacle of David, God has given us a special foreshadowing of the church.

Why do you think the Holy Spirit equated the tabernacle of David with the Gentile church?

The Lord's peace to all,
Rick

[Brother Les]

The 'Tabernacle (House) of David', is not (per se') a religious building but "A Peoples", 'A Body', The Body. The 'Promises' (Redemption, Salvation, Resurrection) made to 'The Fathers' was for 'All Israel'(Sons of God). 'Israel' of 'The Light' (vs israel of Darkness) were the only one to be able to receive these 'Promises', ie 'A Remnent'. The Church is the result of these Promises Kept. The Church is The Body, is The Elect, is The Tabernacle of David. You may ask, "What about these 'gentiles', theses Goem, these Dogs...". The Northern House of Isreal was 'Divorced' from the Mosaic Covenant Marriage. They could no longer have 'Covenant' with YHWH/Jesus (Jesus is YHWH in the OT) under the Temple Cultus religious system. But Ephraim/Israel were invited back into the Covenant (New Covenant Coming, ie. Betrothal) as a New Peoples by a New Name, Christians. The Jewish Christians still had the yoke of the Mosaic Temple Cultis (works) as long as the Temple stood OR they as Jews broke completely away from the Temple worship system. Being a blood born Jew, it was really better to stay in the Mosaic Temple worship cultis in order to bring MORE Jews to Christ by the reasoning of Scripture. (until the time for a JEWISH Christians to flee to Pella). The Goem/Gentiles of the Dispria were part the Whole House of Israel and there by the Tabernacle (whole House) of David and New Covenant could not come to its' complete fullness (marriage) unless all of the first century elect were present at the time of the Judgements (Promises). The Judgements were for Blessings AND Curses. Curses of Judgements on those whom rejected Christ and Blessings of Marriage of those whom came to Christ. The Judgements of Holocaust/Marriage came to there Fullness at the complesion of The Jewish Wars..... With out the gentiles, there would be no 'Tabernacle of David' and there by no New Covenant.

[heb13-13]

The 'Tabernacle (House) of David', is not (per se') a religious building but "A Peoples", 'A Body', The Body. The 'Promises' (Redemption, Salvation, Resurrection) made to 'The Fathers' was for 'All Israel'(Sons of God). 'Israel' of 'The Light' (vs israel of Darkness) were the only one to be able to receive these 'Promises', ie 'A Remnent'. The Church is the result of these Promises Kept. The Church is The Body, is The Elect, is The Tabernacle of David. You may ask, "What about these 'gentiles', theses Goem, these Dogs...". The Northern House of Isreal was 'Divorced' from the Mosaic Covenant Marriage. They could no longer have 'Covenant' with YHWH/Jesus (Jesus is YHWH in the OT) under the Temple Cultus religious system. But Ephraim/Israel were invited back into the Covenant (New Covenant Coming, ie. Betrothal) as a New Peoples by a New Name, Christians. The Jewish Christians still had the yoke of the Mosaic Temple Cultis (works) as long as the Temple stood OR they as Jews broke completely away from the Temple worship system. Being a blood born Jew, it was really better to stay in the Mosaic Temple worship cultis in order to bring MORE Jews to Christ by the reasoning of Scripture. (until the time for a JEWISH Christians to flee to Pella). The Goem/Gentiles of the Dispria were part the Whole House of Israel and there by the Tabernacle (whole House) of David and New Covenant could not come to its' complete fullness (marriage) unless all of the first century elect were present at the time of the Judgements (Promises). The Judgements were for Blessings AND Curses. Curses of Judgements on those whom rejected Christ and Blessings of Marriage of those whom came to Christ. The Judgements of Holocaust/Marriage came to there Fullness at the complesion of The Jewish Wars..... With out the gentiles, there would be no 'Tabernacle of David' and there by no New Covenant.

Hi Les,

Thanks for all those "one-liners". :rolleyes:

Not a lot of detail so can't tell what's "behind" those statements (i.e. Torah Observant, Two House Theology, Hebrew Root variants).

I can see you like history and probably Josephus.

Good day to you,
Rick

[Brother Les]

types and shadows / Anti-types and the Real.


Why roll your eyes?

Is it because you are still running the race? A race that you may not know what or where is the finish line.

Josephus confirms the Prophecys of the OT and NT. Few read Josephus and stumble because of a lack of knowledge.

[Brother Les]

Almost two thousand years ago, the Lord Jesus Christ made this great declaration, "I will build My church." Down through the ages He has been building. Unfortunately, man has been building also. And the work of man is always detrimental to the work of God...even when it is done in His name.

In the first century the church was begun among the Jews. It wasn't until Peter preached to Cornelius that there were any Gentile converts. And it wasn't until some Greeks in Antioch believed, that a Gentile church came into being. When Jews from the church in Jerusalem visited Antioch, they began insisting that the Gentile believers in Christ also convert to Judaism in order to be legitimate. Well, the whole complicated issue had to be sorted out with the apostles and elders in Jerusalem, so Paul and Barnabas and others went up for the meeting - perhaps the most important meeting in church history.

At the end of the talk and debate, Peter recounted how the Gentiles were first saved, receiving the Holy Spirit by simply believing the word of the gospel. Their hearts were cleansed by faith without the benefit or the burden of the Mosaic law. Finally, James summed up what the Holy Spirit had been speaking during the meeting -- that the Gentiles who had been saved by faith needed nothing more than what had already been provided by Jesus Christ. When he rendered this judgment, James quoted the following Old Testament scriptures as bearing witness:

"And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." (Acts 15:15-18).

In these amazing Scriptures, James and the Holy Spirit equate the tabernacle of David with the Gentile church. Why the tabernacle of David? Why not the tabernacle of Moses? Why not Solomon's temple?

Because in the tabernacle of David, God has given us a special foreshadowing of the church.

Why do you think the Holy Spirit equated the tabernacle of David with the Gentile church?

The Lord's peace to all,
Rick




What detail would you like about the House (Tabernacle) of David. The term for the Hebrew word of Gentiles is Gowy (GO-E).


Transliteration
gowy
Pronunciation

gō'·ē (Key)


Parts of Speech
masculine noun, proper masculine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

Apparently from the same root as גֵּוָה (H1465)

TWOT Reference
326e

Outline of Biblical Usage n m
1) nation, people

a) nation, people

1) usually of non-Hebrew people

2) of descendants of Abraham

3) of Israel
b) of swarm of locusts, other animals (fig.)

n pr m
c) Goyim? = "nations"

[heb13-13]

What detail would you like about the House (Tabernacle) of David. The term for the Hebrew word of Gentiles is Gowy (GO-E).


Transliteration
gowy
Pronunciation

gō'·ē (Key)


Parts of Speech
masculine noun, proper masculine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

Apparently from the same root as גֵּוָה (H1465)

TWOT Reference
326e

Outline of Biblical Usage n m
1) nation, people

a) nation, people

1) usually of non-Hebrew people

2) of descendants of Abraham

3) of Israel
b) of swarm of locusts, other animals (fig.)

n pr m
c) Goyim? = "nations"

I'm ok, Les. You're right, the Tabernacle is not a "religious" building.

Rick

[Bob May]

In these amazing Scriptures, James and the Holy Spirit equate the tabernacle of David with the Gentile church. Why the tabernacle of David? Why not the tabernacle of Moses? Why not Solomon's temple?

Because in the tabernacle of David, God has given us a special foreshadowing of the church.

Why do you think the Holy Spirit equated the tabernacle of David with the Gentile church?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]

The Lord's peace to all,
Rick

I think the Tabernacle of David is his understanding of righteousness without the law. His understanding of God abiding with him.
A tabernacle is different than a temple. In the Tabernacle of the wilderness the presence of God was always there. Symbolised by the Shekina above the Mercy seat.
We are to bring the presence of God with us wherever we go.
This is Jacob's realization "Surely the Lord is in this place and I knew it not."
Where is "this place?"
It all has to do with Grace. Five is the number of Grace.

1sa 21:3 Now therefore what is under thine hand? give me five loaves of bread in mine hand, or what there is present.
1sa 21:4 And the priest answered David, and said, There is no common bread under mine hand, but there is hallowed bread; if the young men have kept themselves at least from women.
1sa 21:5 And David answered the priest, and said unto him, Of a truth women have been kept from us about these three days, since I came out, and the vessels of the young men are holy, and the bread is in a manner common, yea, though it were sanctified this day in the vessel.

Mt 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Mt 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Mt 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the showbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

When we become aware of God's Grace, we become priests.
Priests work on the Sabbath, yet it is not counted against them.
The Tabernacle in the wilderness was laid out in such a way that there were three areas. The masses were allowed in the outer court, the priest could go further and only the High Priest could enter the Holiest of all.

David had an understanding that was a foreshadowing of the times after the cross when the holiest of all was made available. When the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom (showing it was God's doing.)

David had an "awareness" of the Grace of God and what it meant to each believer. That is the "Key of David" that opens the way to the Holiest of all.
David was a sinner. A murderer and an adulterer.
By Jesus' standard, he was just a regular guy.

Mt 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mt 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Mr 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

David's had an awareness of God's Grace.

Ps 32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Ps 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Ps 32:3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.
Ps 32:4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.
Ps 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

David was an honest man. He was guileless. He pulled no punches.
He knew how badly he had sinned and admitted it.
But he also knew the majesty of God's Grace.
He reached the depths of himself and the heights.

I think these things, the way he viewed God and reality is his Tabernacle.
Our Tabernacle is where we go to experience God's presence. But being a Tabernacle, we don't go anywhere. God's presence goes with us.
If it is built upon an awareness of God's Grace we know that God is with us no matter what.

Ps 86:12 I will praise thee, O Lord my God, with all my heart: and I will glorify thy name for evermore.
Ps 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

Ps 139:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
Ps 139:2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
Ps 139:3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
Ps 139:4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
Ps 139:5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
Ps 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
Ps 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Ps 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Ps 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

This is why the tabernacle of David is equated with the church of the gentiles.
That mind/heart that was in David should be in the church.
It was not founded upon the law but upon the awareness of God's grace and presence.

Bob

[james.hopkins]

Almost two thousand years ago, the Lord Jesus Christ made this great declaration, "I will build My church." Down through the ages He has been building. Unfortunately, man has been building also. And the work of man is always detrimental to the work of God...even when it is done in His name.

In the first century the church was begun among the Jews. It wasn't until Peter preached to Cornelius that there were any Gentile converts. And it wasn't until some Greeks in Antioch believed, that a Gentile church came into being. When Jews from the church in Jerusalem visited Antioch, they began insisting that the Gentile believers in Christ also convert to Judaism in order to be legitimate. Well, the whole complicated issue had to be sorted out with the apostles and elders in Jerusalem, so Paul and Barnabas and others went up for the meeting - perhaps the most important meeting in church history.

At the end of the talk and debate, Peter recounted how the Gentiles were first saved, receiving the Holy Spirit by simply believing the word of the gospel. Their hearts were cleansed by faith without the benefit or the burden of the Mosaic law. Finally, James summed up what the Holy Spirit had been speaking during the meeting -- that the Gentiles who had been saved by faith needed nothing more than what had already been provided by Jesus Christ. When he rendered this judgment, James quoted the following Old Testament scriptures as bearing witness:

"And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." (Acts 15:15-18).

In these amazing Scriptures, James and the Holy Spirit equate the tabernacle of David with the Gentile church. Why the tabernacle of David? Why not the tabernacle of Moses? Why not Solomon's temple?

Because in the tabernacle of David, God has given us a special foreshadowing of the church.

Why do you think the Holy Spirit equated the tabernacle of David with the Gentile church?

The Lord's peace to all,
Rick

Hi Everyone,

I'm not following you when you equate the tabernacle of David to the Gentile church. I rather see it given to both Jew and Gentile. Notice the phrase again: "that the residue of men may seek after the Lord, and all the nations,..." Does not "the residue of men" equate with the Remnant of the Jews? Rom 11.

Also notice the time frame during which this occurs.

14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.

(Cornelius comes to mind as being the first of the Gentiles and then the ones at Antioch of Syria, that brought about this Jerusalem meeting.)

15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 'After this I will return

(James is referring to the coming of the Lord after the Gentiles are brought in. Of that Coming James said that it was "at hand." Jas 5:8. James wrote that within a few years after this meeting. Does it occur as James teaches or was it postponed or delayed?)

And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up;

(Is this the church after his coming? Or does this refer to the lineage of David. His lineage had been "torn down" i.e., removed from the throne with the carrying away by Nebuchadnezzar and his lineage is now restored in the person of Jesus Christ.)

17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the Lord who does all these things.'

What are your thoughts now?

Jim Hopkins

[Charisma]

Hi Jim,

I just want to comment on one short line in your post:


his lineage is now restored in the person of Jesus Christ.

It's not quite as simple as this, because Jesus was only adopted by Joseph (who may, himself, have been adopted because of his technical proximity to Mary's family). Yes, that was enough to give Him full right to the throne of David, but was the Man who said 'my kindgom is not of this world' ever trying to bring an earthly kingdom?

You may think the answer is self-evident, but my experience is that not many people 'see' it.

So, what I 'see' about 'the tabernacle of David' is more to do with Christ's priestly ministry, in that through Him we ourselves become priests unto God.

This is a spiritual ministry which has nothing directly to do with our natural origins, except that we all have a first birth. Our ending, and whether it is 'spiritual' or natural, is dictated by whether we believe in Christ, or not.


I checked out the original context of 'tabernacle of David' and found this in Amos 9:

8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD [are] upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as [corn] is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

[james.hopkins]

Hi Jim,

I just want to comment on one short line in your post:



It's not quite as simple as this, because Jesus was only adopted by Joseph (who may, himself, have been adopted because of his technical proximity to Mary's family). Yes, that was enough to give Him full right to the throne of David, but was the Man who said 'my kindgom is not of this world' ever trying to bring an earthly kingdom?

You may think the answer is self-evident, but my experience is that not many people 'see' it.

So, what I 'see' about 'the tabernacle of David' is more to do with Christ's priestly ministry, in that through Him we ourselves become priests unto God.

This is a spiritual ministry which has nothing directly to do with our natural origins, except that we all have a first birth. Our ending, and whether it is 'spiritual' or natural, is dictated by whether we believe in Christ, or not.


I checked out the original context of 'tabernacle of David' and found this in Amos 9:

8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD [are] upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as [corn] is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.



Hi Charisma,

Are you saying that Jesus' lineage to David was only technical since he was only adopted by Joseph?

I'm seeing a fleshly relationship to David, which to me, seems important. For example, the prophecy made to Judah in Gen 49:10 " The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes; And to Him shall be the obedience of the people."

And the prophecy made to David in 2Sam 7:12-13, ""When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever."

Peter speaks of this fulfillment in Acts 2:30, "Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne."

And Paul makes mention of the fleshly relationship in Rom 1:3-4, " concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead."

He had full rights to the throne apart from his adoption by Joseph. As shown by Lk 3, Jesus was a son of David through Mary's lineage.

Would you agree that it was important that Jesus was the Son of David in the flesh?

Jim Hopkins

[Bob May]

Hi Charisma,

Are you saying that Jesus' lineage to David was only technical since he was only adopted by Joseph?

I'm seeing a fleshly relationship to David, which to me, seems important. Peter speaks of this fulfillment in Acts 2:30, "Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne."

And Paul makes mention of the fleshly relationship in Rom 1:3-4, " concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead."

He had full rights to the throne apart from his adoption by Joseph. As shown by Lk 3, Jesus was a son of David through Mary's lineage.

Would you agree that it was important that Jesus was the Son of David in the flesh?Jim Hopkins

There are two world views going on here. We start out seeing only the outer.
Both views are important because the outer shows the patterns that the inner will reveal to us later.

Jesus said that the Pharisees were sons of Abraham. He turned right around and said that they were not.

Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Jesus answered them according to the flesh at first. That is what they understood. They were Abraham's seed in that respect.
But at a different level, that of what motivated them, they were not sons of Abraham. "IF you were Abraham's children..." You would not do what you are doing.

Pr 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Pr 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Jesus was practicing these two verses in Proverbs.

He could answer them according to the Scriptures in the Old Testament geneologies because he knew them well. "...Lest they be wise in their own conceit."
But he took the conversation to a higher level "...lest thou also be like unto them.", by showing what being a child of Abraham meant in the realm of mind and belief and consciousness.

Both are true. Both are important as types and anti-types have to match in some ways in order for us to get anything "useful" out of them. The patterns are the same.

So they were children of Abraham (after the flesh) and they were not (after the Spirit).
Both statements are true in their proper context.

Bob

[Charisma]

Hi Jim,


Would you agree that it was important that Jesus was the Son of David in the flesh?Absolutely!

But it is also circular, because David, the man after God's own heart, was descended from Adam who was '[the son] of God'. The importance of Christ the last Adam being the Son of God - carries man's relationship from the natural to the spiritual.



Bob, thanks for what you shared from John 8 and Proverbs. I saw something for the first time, about what it means to be one of 'Abraham's children', as opposed to being of Abraham's seed. It is a transformation in the 'heart'.

[Bob May]

Hi Jim,

Absolutely!

But it is also circular, because David, the man after God's own heart, was descended from Adam who was '[the son] of God'. The importance of Christ the last Adam being the Son of God - carries man's relationship from the natural to the spiritual.



Bob, thanks for what you shared from John 8 and Proverbs. I saw something for the first time, about what it means to be one of 'Abraham's children', as opposed to being of Abraham's seed. It is a transformation in the 'heart'.

Hi Charisma,
I never caught that. What do you get from it?
Bob

[Charisma]

Hi Bob,


Bob, thanks for what you shared from John 8 and Proverbs. I saw something for the first time, about what it means to be one of 'Abraham's children', as opposed to being of Abraham's seed. It is a transformation in the 'heart'.

Hi Charisma,
I never caught that. What do you get from it?

In another thread, you were compared Mary's womb with the 'good ground' into which the seed (Christ) fell. (This also links to the heart where the glory is to shine, like in the Holy of Holies.) I'm leaving to you make any other connections for yourself, as this may be confusing reading for some.

So, to Abraham's seed, which is natural. The natural man has to fall into the ground and die, as Christ said of His own death in John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. Before there is any fruit, it has to be raised a new creation - 1 Corinthians 15:35 But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

In order to 'die' in Christ, [EDIT] one must believe into His death, before one can believe into His resurrected life.

It is this transformation which changes one from being of Abraham's seed naturally (outward circumcision) , into one of 'Abraham's children' inwardly through 'circumcision of the heart'. (Romans 2:23 - 29) [end edit]

Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

That's what I caught - those connections.

[Bob May]

Hi Bob,



In another thread, you were compared Mary's womb with the 'good ground' into which the seed (Christ) fell. (This also links to the heart where the glory is to shine, like in the Holy of Holies.) I'm leaving to you make any other connections for yourself, as this may be confusing reading for some.

So, to Abraham's seed, which is natural. The natural man has to fall into the ground and die, as Christ said of His own death in John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. Before there is any fruit, it has to be raised a new creation - 1 Corinthians 15:35 But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

In order to 'die' in Christ, [EDIT] one must believe into His death, before one can believe into His resurrected life.

It is this transformation which changes one from being of Abraham's seed naturally (outward circumcision) , into one of 'Abraham's children' inwardly through 'circumcision of the heart'. (Romans 2:23 - 29) [end edit]

Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

That's what I caught - those connections.

I see what you are getting a here seed vs. children but what about Paul referring to the seed being one?

Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Ga 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Ga 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

I guess they did not believe the promise. Would not give up the law and the seed fell on stoney ground.
So they could not be born and become "children."

Bob

[Charisma]

Hi Bob,


I see what you are getting a here seed vs. children but what about Paul referring to the seed being one?

Well, I've just read the whole of Galatians 3 and am surprised by the last verse:
29 And if ye Christ's, then are ye [B]Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul is drawing strongly on Abraham's righteousness by faith for his definition. Although he doesn't mention circumcision in chs 3 and 4, the whole discussion is about whether physical circumcision was necessary for a Christian, so he is also trying to divide between righteousness by the law, and righteousness by faith. Paul is emphasising that the faith came before the circumcision, and that all that's needed now, is the faith, to show oneself as 'Abraham's seed'.

With reference to 'seed being one', here is God's original promise to Abram:
Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Paul is saying that 'Seed' has always been about just one person - Christ - who was descended in a line traceable back to Abraham. He continues explaining how God separated between Abraham's offspring to maintain and fulfil His promise, in Galatians 4:

21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


Paul is constantly trying to move believers off their own works - whether works of the Law or other kinds of self-righteousness - and on to Christ by the Spirit through faith.

It was not until after the cross the disciples began to understand the cross, and, not until Paul began to write, did anyone have various overviews of the spiritual interpretation of the Law's types and shadows. The prophets and psalms had been more accessible.

I don't know if this answer is complete, but it's what I can see so far - apart from going all the way back to God's promise to Eve, that one day her seed would bruise Satan's seed.

Here are the last three mentions of circumcision in the same epistle:

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Galatians 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

[Bob May]

Hi Bob,



Well, I've just read the whole of Galatians 3 and am surprised by the last verse:
29 And if ye Christ's, then are ye [B]Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul is drawing strongly on Abraham's righteousness by faith for his definition. Although he doesn't mention circumcision in chs 3 and 4, the whole discussion is about whether physical circumcision was necessary for a Christian, so he is also trying to divide between righteousness by the law, and righteousness by faith. Paul is emphasising that the faith came before the circumcision, and that all that's needed now, is the faith, to show oneself as 'Abraham's seed'.

With reference to 'seed being one', here is God's original promise to Abram:
Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Paul is saying that 'Seed' has always been about just one person - Christ - who was descended in a line traceable back to Abraham. He continues explaining how God separated between Abraham's offspring to maintain and fulfil His promise, in Galatians 4:

21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


Paul is constantly trying to move believers off their own works - whether works of the Law or other kinds of self-righteousness - and on to Christ by the Spirit through faith.

It was not until after the cross the disciples began to understand the cross, and, not until Paul began to write, did anyone have various overviews of the spiritual interpretation of the Law's types and shadows. The prophets and psalms had been more accessible.

I don't know if this answer is complete, but it's what I can see so far - apart from going all the way back to God's promise to Eve, that one day her seed would bruise Satan's seed.

Here are the last three mentions of circumcision in the same epistle:

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Galatians 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.


A lot there. This also relates.

Ge 21:4 And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him.
Ge 21:5 And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him.
Ge 21:6 And Sarah said, God hath made me to laugh, so that all that hear (circumcision of the heart) will laugh with me.

So we have EVE who is the mother of us all.
Mary who is the mother of us all. Because she gave birth to the "seed of Abraham" which is Christ.
And Sarah who is the mother of our faith (being that Abraham is the Father of faith.) and who also is "Jerusalem which is above" and the "Mother of us all."

I think I got it.

Bob

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Almost two thousand years ago, the Lord Jesus Christ made this great declaration, "I will build My church." Down through the ages He has been building. Unfortunately, man has been building also. And the work of man is always detrimental to the work of God...even when it is done in His name.
-------------------------------------------------
"And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." (Acts 15:15-18).

In these amazing Scriptures, James and the Holy Spirit equate the tabernacle of David with the Gentile church. Why the tabernacle of David? Why not the tabernacle of Moses? Why not Solomon's temple?

Because in the tabernacle of David, God has given us a special foreshadowing of the church.

Why do you think the Holy Spirit equated the tabernacle of David with the Gentile church?

The Lord's peace to all,
Rick
I'm in general agreement of a similar understanding. There are some good articles online that define the tabernacle of david as something when the people of the gentiles could come and worship. I don't think the ark of the mosaic covenant was in the tabernacle. Some or even many of the psalms were written at this time [from the information I gathered.]