The Changing God [Archive] - Bibles, Wheels, and Brains Forum

Rose

08-28-2011, 08:38 AM

CWH

08-28-2011, 10:58 AM

.

Doesn’t it seem a bit odd how the 'God' of the Old Testament completely micro-managed the lives of the Hebrews with at least 613 laws, while the 'God' of the New Testament suddenly decides from one moment to the next that people are mature enough to manage their own lives, thus condensing all the laws into one 'the Golden Rule'. The funny thing is that nothing changed as far as the human condition and inclination to do the so-called 'bad things' that the laws under the Old Covenant were supposed to keep them from doing.

Why did a person get stoned to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath under the Old Covenant and suddenly after Jesus comes 'God' says it’s okay to pick up sticks as long as no harm is done to another? Following the same logic, Mary the mother of Jesus could have been stoned to death under 'God’s' law for picking up sticks on the Sabbath while she was pregnant with Jesus, but after the crucifixion the Sabbath law no longer warranted the death penalty. Even the case of the woman caught in adultery which Jesus stopped; under the Old Covenant law given by 'God' she should have been stoned. The same goes for every other person alive during that transitional time period, because the Jews were commanded to carry out the laws given them from 'God' through Moses, if they didn’t carry out 'Gods' laws they would have been punished, or killed accordingly. Over, and over again in the Old Testament we read of people being killed or punished for transgressions of the law, yet with the advent of the New Covenant everything changed in the twinkling of an eye.

I understand when a human ruler changes his mind because of new knowledge or a change of heart, but according to the Bible 'God' is supposed to be all knowing and unchanging, so what’s up with that? Seems to me like another case of human invention, where earlier authors of Scripture said things that conflicted with how the later authors perceived 'God' to be, so corrections were made to try and 'fix' the problems without throwing out the earlier writings. In that manner a transition could be made correcting for errors in the perception of God, all the while keeping the original documents that were deemed to be 'God given'...but, then we are stuck with a made-up, human invented "God".

Rose

I see the whole thing as what a loving parent will do. Do parents beat their children when they did minor offenses? Yes, spare the rod and spoil the child. Do parents beat their children when they becomes adolescents for minor offenses? Not so often, preferring to scold and talk sense to them. Do parents beat their children when for minor offenses when they becomes adults? No, may rebuke them but will also try to talk sense to them. Will parents beat their children when they becomes mature parents for minor offenses? No, but will leave it to them but will provide advice when necessary. Why do loving parents have such standard ways in disciplining their children? The answer is the same way God disciplined His own children.

Hosea 11:1 'When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.
2 But the more they were called,
the more they went away from me.[a]
They sacrificed to the Baals
and they burned incense to images.
3 It was I who taught Ephraim to walk,
taking them by the arms;
but they did not realize
it was I who healed them.
4 I led them with cords of human kindness,
with ties of love.
To them I was like one who lifts
a little child to the cheek,
and I bent down to feed them.

God punished His own people severely in the OT as they were still very immatured and always rebel against God and did evil things. It is like a very naughty child who committed very naughty offenses and the parents have no choice but punish the child severely to discipline them including putting the child in rehabilitation homes. God not only punished them severely including putting His own very naughty children "to sleep" but also with the promise that He will wake them up one day hoping they will learn their lesson and repent and to give them another chance. When human progressed and became like adults as in the NT, God tends to rebuke and talk sense to them. I believe we humans are now in our mature parenting age and God leave them to us to deal with our own problems but will give help when we seek Him. Will God still punish us for offenses when we reached elderly age? Yes, if we have not learned of the evil offenses committed and make good after going through the many years in life.

Loving God, forgive our trepasses. Amen. :pray:

Rose

08-28-2011, 11:08 AM

I see the whole thing as what a loving parent will do. Do parents beat their children when they did minor offenses? Yes, spare the rod and spoil the child. Do parents beat their children when they becomes adolescents for minor offenses? Not so often, preferring to scold and talk sense to them. Do parents beat their children when for minor offenses when they becomes adults? No, may rebuke them but will also try to talk sense to them. Will parents beat their children when they becomes mature parents for minor offenses? No, but will leave it to them but will provide advice when necessary. Why do loving parents have such standard ways in disciplining their children? The answer is the same way God disciplined His own children.

Hosea 11:1 'When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.
2 But the more they were called,
the more they went away from me.[a]
They sacrificed to the Baals
and they burned incense to images.
3 It was I who taught Ephraim to walk,
taking them by the arms;
but they did not realize
it was I who healed them.
4 I led them with cords of human kindness,
with ties of love.
To them I was like one who lifts
a little child to the cheek,
and I bent down to feed them.

God punished His own people severely in the OT as they were still very immatured and always rebel against God and did evil things. It is like a very naughty child who committed very naughty offenses and the parents have no choice but punish the child severely to discipline them including putting the child in rehabilitation homes. God not only punished them severely including putting His own very naughty children "to sleep" but also with the promise that He will wake them up one day hoping they will learn their lesson and repent and to give them another chance. When human progressed and became like adults as in the NT, God tends to rebuke and talk sense to them. I believe we humans are now in our mature parenting age and God leave them to us to deal with our own problems but will give help when we seek Him. Will God still punish us for offenses when we reached elderly age? Yes, if we have not learned of the evil offenses committed and make good after going through the many years in life.

Loving God, forgive our trepasses. Amen. :pray:

I have only one thing to say to you Cheow...loving parents DO NOT beat their children!

All the Best,
Rose

CWH

08-28-2011, 11:28 AM

I have only one thing to say to you Cheow...loving parents DO NOT beat their children!

All the Best,
Rose

I don't know about your Western ways, In the East, we believe in sparing the rod and spoil the child. My parents would beat me when I was a kid for doing naughty things. And when they have punished me, they will usually tell me why I was beaten and that it was for my own good and how hurt they were when they punished me. I believed God did the same when He punished His children. When I reached adolescent and adulthood, they did not beat me but would scold and rebuked me for my wrongdoings and talked sense to me. Jesus did the same to God's people in the first century.

Lord, teach us your ways, Amen :pray:.

Rose

08-28-2011, 12:36 PM

I don't know about your Western ways, In the East, we believe in sparing the rod and spoil the child. My parents would beat me when I was a kid for doing naughty things. And when they have punished me, they will usually tell me why I was beaten and that it was for my own good and how hurt they were when they punished me. I believed God did the same when He punished His children. When I reached adolescent and adulthood, they did not beat me but would scold and rebuked me for my wrongdoings and talked sense to me. Jesus did the same to God's people in the first century.

Lord, teach us your ways, Amen :pray:.

Just because your parents beat you as a child does not mean it was good, and just because they said it was for your own good and it hurt them more than you doesn't mean they were right. People act in wrong ways because that is the way they were taught which has nothing to do with right or wrong.

I have two boys ages 15 and 19 and I have never beaten either one of them, both boys are well adjusted, kind human beings with a good moral sense, knowing right from wrong. Imagine that...and I never even once beat them. There are ways to teach a child without the use of violence!

All the Best,
Rose

Beck

08-28-2011, 02:01 PM

Rose

08-28-2011, 03:06 PM

Hi Rose,

So you don't believe that the written laws on stones wasn't a kind of stepping stone 'schoolmaster' until the Living stones was to be created?

Hi Beck,

I believe the written laws of the Bible were a kind of "stepping stone", but only in the sense of revealing to us the progression of the thought process of Bronze age men. The Bible was formed from the ideas of primitive men who projected violent warrior like qualities onto what they perceived to be the creator, as mans intellect, and consciousness level advanced, so did man's perception of "God", hence when Jesus appeared on the scene he presented a much more loving, and forgiving God then did his ancestors.

All the Best,
Rose

CWH

08-28-2011, 03:06 PM

Just because your parents beat you as a child does not mean it was good, and just because they said it was for your own good and it hurt them more than you doesn't mean they were right. People act in wrong ways because that is the way they were taught which has nothing to do with right or wrong.

I have two boys ages 15 and 19 and I have never beaten either one of them, both boys are well adjusted, kind human beings with a good moral sense, knowing right from wrong. Imagine that...and I never even once beat them. There are ways to teach a child without the use of violence!

All the Best,
Rose

And just because parents beat their child does not means they are bad or ineffective. Spare the rod and you may spoil the child. There are many ways to discipline a child just like there are many ways to lead and many ways to correct a criminal. There are no right or wrong rules. The US military never believes in talking sense to terrorists or the enemy; they hit them real hard.

When I say beatings by my parents, it is usually a rod on the hands, lower legs or buttock. I personally and like most Asian children, we have no resentment against our parents for punishing us, knowing that it is part of love and discipline to make us learn from our wrong doings. We never consider that as violence or hatred!

You should thank God for your well-adjusted children but not all children can be disciplined without using the rod or spankings. There are always soft and hard approach to a problem; both can be equally good depending on situation.

Lord, teach us and mold us. Amen. :pray:

Rose

08-28-2011, 03:23 PM

And just because parents beat their child does not means they are bad or ineffective. Spare the rod and you may spoil the child. There are many ways to discipline a child just like there are many ways to lead and many ways to correct a criminal. There are no right or wrong rules. The US military never believes in talking sense to terrorists or the enemy; they hit them real hard.

When I say beatings by my parents, it is usually a rod on the hands, lower legs or buttock. I personally and like most Asian children, we have no resentment against our parents for punishing us, knowing that it is part of love and discipline to make us learn from our wrong doings. We never consider that as violence or hatred!

You should thank God for your well-adjusted children but not all children can be disciplined without using the rod or spankings. There are always soft and hard approach to a problem; both can be equally good depending on situation.

Lord, teach us and mold us. Amen. :pray:

If there are no right or wrong rules then why does the Bible say "spare the rod and spoil the child"? That would imply that the only way to train a child is through violence. Many Christian parents that follow that doctrine don't even give non-violent methods a chance. Did your parents first try non-violent methods and then only if those methods didn't work resort to something else? Probably not, so you will never know if a non-violent method would have worked just as well...like with my two boys.

I don't see why I should thank a mythological god I don't believe in for my well-adjusted children.

All the Best,
Rose

CWH

08-28-2011, 04:07 PM

If there are no right or wrong rules then why does the Bible say "spare the rod and spoil the child"? That would imply that the only way to train a child is through violence. Many Christian parents that follow that doctrine don't even give non-violent methods a chance. Did your parents first try non-violent methods and then only if those methods didn't work resort to something else? Probably not, so you will never know if a non-violent method would have worked just as well...like with my two boys.

I don't see why I should thank a mythological god I don't believe in for my well-adjusted children.

All the Best,
Rose

There are no right or wrong rules because different problems require different approaches. If the boss rebuked his employee softly and the employees do not budge, don't you think this time round, the boss will use the hard authoritative approach? That is why I said, "There are always soft and hard approach to a problem; both can be equally good depending on situation". Of course, parents do use non-violence methods but if non-violent methods don't worked, what do you do then?..... leave it?..... give up?...... let them be?......

I said you should thank God for your well-adjusted children because not many parents are just as lucky as you. Have you ever thought what if your children are not well-adjusted and are very rebellious? Have you ever spare a thought on parents who have very rebellious children and the hell that they are going through? Poor parenting, broken families, social causes such as mixing with "bad" guys, anti-social attitudes, immature thinking, poor mental health are just some of the reasons for rebellious children; not necessary parental faults.

Thank God that I and my family members are well-adjusted and we did not caused much problems to our parents.

Honor your father and mother, Amen.:pray:.

Beck

08-28-2011, 04:32 PM

Hi Beck,

I believe the written laws of the Bible were a kind of "stepping stone", but only in the sense of revealing to us the progression of the thought process of Bronze age men. The Bible was formed from the ideas of primitive men who projected violent warrior like qualities onto what they perceived to be the creator, as mans intellect, and consciousness level advanced, so did man's perception of "God", hence when Jesus appeared on the scene he presented a much more loving, and forgiving God then did his ancestors.

All the Best,
Rose

So at the end of this Bible that was formed by man's idea and concepts of God. Did it progress unto a loving and forgiven God or is there also another side that is shown which would still be that violent warror type God?

So I'm not sure if what you said would be a value argument
"so corrections were made to try and “fix” the problems without throwing out the earlier writings."

Rose

08-28-2011, 11:07 PM

So at the end of this Bible that was formed by man's idea and concepts of God. Did it progress unto a loving and forgiven God or is there also another side that is shown which would still be that violent warror type God?

So I'm not sure if what you said would be a value argument

Generally speaking the "God" of the New Testament is a much more compassionate and forgiving god, but not altogether, especially how he is portrayed in Revelation where we once again see his violent, vengeful, warrior side.

Rose

CWH

08-29-2011, 05:05 AM

[QUOTE=CWH;34275]I see the whole thing as what a loving parent will do. Do parents beat their children when they did minor offenses? Yes, spare the rod and spoil the child. Do parents beat their children when they becomes adolescents for minor offenses? Not so often, preferring to scold and talk sense to them. Do parents beat their children when for minor offenses when they becomes adults? No, may rebuke them but will also try to talk sense to them. Will parents beat their children when they becomes mature parents for minor offenses? No, but will leave it to them but will provide advice when necessary. Why do loving parents have such standard ways in disciplining their children? The answer is the same way God disciplined His own children.

Hosea 11:1 “When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.
2 But the more they were called,
the more they went away from me.[a]
They sacrificed to the Baals
and they burned incense to images.
3 It was I who taught Ephraim to walk,
taking them by the arms;
but they did not realize
it was I who healed them.
4 I led them with cords of human kindness,
with ties of love.
To them I was like one who lifts
a little child to the cheek,
and I bent down to feed them.

I would like to focus my thoughts again on the association of human development in relation with nation Israel's timeline:

Hosea 11:1 says that "when Israel was a child", he seems to refer to the time of Israel i.e. Jacob about BC 1500 when Israel (Jacob) was a small kid or infant. In fact, several OT passages seem to indicate that this is the period of the infancy of the nation Israel with the word "infant" which is found in the OT from Numbers (BC 1200) up to Isaiah about BC 600:

Numbers 11:12
Did I conceive all these people? Did I give them birth? Why do you tell me to carry them in my arms, as a nurse carries an infant, to the land you promised on oath to their ancestors?

Numbers 12:12
Do not let her be like a stillborn infant coming from its mother’s womb with its flesh half eaten away.”

Job 3:16
Or why was I not hidden away in the ground like a stillborn child, like an infant who never saw the light of day?

Job 24:9
The fatherless child is snatched from the breast; the infant of the poor is seized for a debt.

Isaiah 11:8
The infant will play near the cobra’s den, the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.

Isaiah 65:20
“Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

Hosea 11: 1 "when Israel was a child" in past tense seems to suggest a time lapse from the time of development of Jacob (Israel) as a kid from BC 1500 to the time of Hosea about BC 500; a span of 1,000 years. This is suggestive of the development of nation Israel from a child towards adolescent age.

From the period of Hosea in BC 500 to the arrival of Jesus in AD 1 seems to be the period of the adolescent age of nation Israel; a period of upheavals (just like the period of adolescent puberty adjustment to adulthood) from the Greek Empire to the breakup of the Greek Empire to Seleucid Empire to Ptolemic Empire; from Macabees to Antiochus to the rise of the Roman Empire.

From the period of AD 1 to AD 70 or so seems to be the period of adulthood (marriageable age) of the nation Israel. This is confirmed by the several mentions of the words "bridegroom" and "bride" in the Gospel and in Revelation:

Matthew 9:15
Jesus answered, “How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast.

Matthew 25:1
[ The Parable of the Ten Virgins ] “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

Matthew 25:5
The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

Matthew 25:6
“At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’

Matthew 25:10
“But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

Mark 2:19
Jesus answered, “How can the guests of the bridegroom fast while he is with them? They cannot, so long as they have him with them.

Mark 2:20
But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them, and on that day they will fast.

Luke 5:34
Jesus answered, “Can you make the friends of the bridegroom fast while he is with them?

Luke 5:35
But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; in those days they will fast.”

John 2:9
and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside

John 3:29
The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete.

Revelation 18:23
The light of a lamp will never shine in you again. The voice of bridegroom and bride will never be heard in you again. Your merchants were the world’s important people. By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.

This lead us to the period of AD 70 to present; is this the parenthood age to the mature parenthood age of the nation of Israel?.... It was from AD 70 onwards with the dispersion of the Jews that Christianity, the "product" or "child" of Christ with Christ as the parent, started to spread far and wide throughout the whole wide world.

In summary, the time from Jacob when nation Israel was named in about BC 1500 to the time when nation Israel was destroyed in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem and the dispersion of the Jews can be considered as the time when nation Israel started as an infant till adulthood.

Just some food for thought.

The wisdom of God never ceases to inspire. Amen.:pray:

Gil

08-29-2011, 12:33 PM

Howdy Rose,

Quote: Rose > [ I believe the written laws of the Bible were a kind of "stepping stone", but only in the sense of revealing to us the progression of the thought process of Bronze age men. The Bible was formed from the ideas of primitive men who projected violent warrior like qualities onto what they perceived to be the creator, as mans intellect, and consciousness level advanced, so did man's perception of "God", hence when Jesus appeared on the scene he presented a much more loving, and forgiving God then did his ancestors.

All the Best,
Rose ]

Gil >

Whether they be the Gods of mythology or the God of the Children of Israel,
They were a reflection of the thoughts, idea's, concepts of Man about God.
They seen all the traits and attributes that they had as humans and ascribed them
to God.
Both Good and Evil.
They were in a way, their own God.
The True God would however make his presence known through his only begotten Son.

The Bible is about God and his relationship with Man ,as being the highest order to have life upon the Earth.
Was the Bible inspired by God? Why not.
I think it was, even with my own radical beliefs.
God allowed both stories, that of Man and that of himself ,God, to be told.
Both Good and Evil would be made manifest and exposed.
God is Good, Man was either Good and Evil or just plain Evil.

Man shouldn't hang his own nature on God as in the beginning but
the nature of Gods only begotten Son in the end.

When the presence of God departed Adam in the Garden is when evil,
war and the negative manifestations that are of Darkness began.
God created/bara'ed evil through the removal of his presence from within the mind of Man.
All evil is Man generated, not of God, the Father of Jesus Christ.
It says that God created both darkness and evil, but it would be through his Son
that God the Father would make peace and form the light.

Even if looked at from an evolutionary view, Primitive man's greatest functions would be the propagation of the species and survival.
Regardless of the species. Meekness and a passive nature wouldn't get it.
It was more of a dog eat dog , an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth type environment
where only the most cunning and strongest would survive.
A God of fierce countenance , a war God , a God of vengeance toward ones enemies
was a necessity.
The Hebrews would make manifest such a God with Jehovah.

You speak of a mythological God of the ancients.

The Bible is about the progression of Life.
Both the Bible and science ( micro Biology) have a commonality.
What is this thing that is called Life?

Gil :pop2:

heb13-13

08-29-2011, 04:12 PM

Hi Folks,

Been lurking for awhile and not really what I wanted my first post to be (will introduce myself later when I have more time), but just had to ask this question.

Generally speaking the "God" of the New Testament is a much more compassionate and forgiving god, but not altogether, especially how he is portrayed in Revelation where we once again see his violent, vengeful, warrior side.

Rose

Actually, you don't have to wait until Revelation. Jesus (who said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father), says:

Mat 25:24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Mat 25:25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo,therethou hastthat isthine.
Mat 25:26His lord answered and said unto him,Thouwicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, andthenat my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28Take therefore the talent from him, and giveitunto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 25:31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd dividethhissheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fedthee?or thirsty, and gavetheedrink?
Mat 25:38When saw we thee a stranger, and tooktheein? or naked, and clothedthee?
Mat 25:39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have doneitunto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have doneitunto me.
Mat 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye diditnot to one of the least of these, ye diditnot to me.
Mat 25:46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

So, if Jesus is so lovey-dovey, why did He say this?

Then, there is Matthew 23, too and many other similar things from Jesus.

Blessings to you all,
Rick

Rose

08-29-2011, 05:54 PM

Hi Folks,

Been lurking for awhile and not really what I wanted my first post to be (will introduce myself later when I have more time), but just had to ask this question.

Actually, you don't have to wait until Revelation. Jesus (who said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father), says:

Mat 25:24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Mat 25:25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo,therethou hastthat isthine.
Mat 25:26His lord answered and said unto him,Thouwicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, andthenat my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28Take therefore the talent from him, and giveitunto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 25:31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd dividethhissheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fedthee?or thirsty, and gavetheedrink?
Mat 25:38When saw we thee a stranger, and tooktheein? or naked, and clothedthee?
Mat 25:39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have doneitunto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have doneitunto me.
Mat 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye diditnot to one of the least of these, ye diditnot to me.
Mat 25:46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

So, if Jesus is so lovey-dovey, why did He say this?

Then, there is Matthew 23, too and many other similar things from Jesus.

Blessings to you all,
Rick

Hi Heb 13-13,

Welcome to our Forum :welcome: Glad you decided to jump into the conversation.

Jesus was far from "lovey-dovey", but in comparison to what we read in the Old Testament it does seem like he was trying to present a more forgiving picture of the warrior god Yahweh.

I must wholeheartedly agree with you that a god who would send anyone to everlasting punishment cannot be considered loving.

All the Best,
Rose

heb13-13

08-29-2011, 08:13 PM

I must wholeheartedly agree with you that a god who would send anyone to everlasting punishment cannot be considered loving.

All the Best,
Rose

I am not really agreeing with you. :sEm_ImSorry:
It is interesting how you characterize Him. Does He send or do we choose? If we choose to serve other gods during our stay here on earth, won't it be more comfortable for us to continue to serve those same gods in eternity, who we devoted our entire earthly existence to? If we hated Him on earth, what would make us all of a sudden love Him in eternity? It won't be comfortable for us to be with Him in eternity if we did not desire His company on earth.

But, if He is just mythological to you, then why even waste your time on Him.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

All the best to you, too.
Rick

Beck

08-30-2011, 08:38 AM

Generally speaking the "God" of the New Testament is a much more compassionate and forgiving god, but not altogether, especially how he is portrayed in Revelation where we once again see his violent, vengeful, warrior side.

Rose

Rose, Well I understand your prospective and how you come to that conclusion, but I do see instances of both the war like God and the loving God in both the old testament and new testament. In the old like in Deu. 7:7-15 where God said that he loved the children of Israel in so much that he made away out of Egypt. That through his love for them would bless them and multiple them and give them a fruitful land, etc.. It is only when they rebelled against God and turned away that God would used corrections to try to turn them back to himself.

I beleive God forseen this and as his plan tried to use their own errors to bring about a change until the true Messiah would come and make a better way. This is why I said that the old was a stepping stone of learning how to live as the commandments of stone was only a schoolmaster until the living stone would come to create the living stones of the new Jerusalem.

So I still don't see a big problem that had to be 'fixed'. If that problem was that they only saw one side of God as the war God then that wasn't the case at all for God showed them his love with correction. So in using the term 'fixed' do you mean that in the new testament it would only show the true and only one side of God by taking away the error of what was the war like God. So what was fixed? I still see both so then the question is 'The changing God'?

Rose

08-30-2011, 09:33 AM

Rose, Well I understand your prospective and how you come to that conclusion, but I do see instances of both the war like God and the loving God in both the old testament and new testament. In the old like in Deu. 7:7-15 where God said that he loved the children of Israel in so much that he made away out of Egypt. That through his love for them would bless them and multiple them and give them a fruitful land, etc.. It is only when they rebelled against God and turned away that God would used corrections to try to turn them back to himself.

I beleive God forseen this and as his plan tried to use their own errors to bring about a change until the true Messiah would come and make a better way. This is why I said that the old was a stepping stone of learning how to live as the commandments of stone was only a schoolmaster until the living stone would come to create the living stones of the new Jerusalem.

So I still don't see a big problem that had to be 'fixed'. If that problem was that they only saw one side of God as the war God then that wasn't the case at all for God showed them his love with correction. So in using the term 'fixed' do you mean that in the new testament it would only show the true and only one side of God by taking away the error of what was the war like God. So what was fixed? I still see both so then the question is 'The changing God'?

First off I believe that what we read of "God" in the Bible is ONLY mans projection of what they perceived the creator of the universe to be like. If there is a divine source for everything that exists, it is by no means anything like the masculine warrior god, Yahweh, but man in his struggle to understand the cosmos and how it was created began to project images from the archetypes of his own unconscious onto an external being. The evidence for this is clearly seen throughout the different myths and religions of humanity; and as the cultures changed so did their gods.

This is very evident in whole of the Bible where we can see the image of Yahweh changing with the progression of time. The warrior god still remains in the New Testament, but he is presented in a more "toned down" way. Instead of Yahweh commanding the slaughter of men and women in this life for transgressions (except in Revelation) as was done in the Old Testament, we find in the New Testament the idea of "Hell" introduced and eternal damnation as a punishment for those who do not receive salvation.

When Jesus entered Jewish history he focused more on the forgiving side of "God" in this life and pushed the idea of punishment off to the next life. Yahweh of the Old Testament also had a forgiving side, but generally the focus was on his violent, vengeful side which was manifest by killing people in this life (starting with the mass slaughter of mankind in the Flood story) verses sending transgressors off to eternal punishment which is focused on in the New Testament.

All the Best,
Rose

Beck

08-30-2011, 10:59 AM

heb13-13

08-30-2011, 11:05 AM

First off I believe that what we read of "God" in the Bible is ONLY mans projection of what they perceived the creator of the universe to be like.

All the Best,
Rose

Thanks Rose. Your clarification does help me understand your reasonings much better. I appreciate that.

I am more inclined to believe this:

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
2Pe 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Blessings to you,
Rick

Rose

08-30-2011, 11:12 AM

I am not really agreeing with you. :sEm_ImSorry:
It is interesting how you characterize Him. Does He send or do we choose? If we choose to serve other gods during our stay here on earth, won't it be more comfortable for us to continue to serve those same gods in eternity, who we devoted our entire earthly existence to? If we hated Him on earth, what would make us all of a sudden love Him in eternity? It won't be comfortable for us to be with Him in eternity if we did not desire His company on earth.

But, if He is just mythological to you, then why even waste your time on Him.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

All the best to you, too.
Rick

Hi Rick,

That's too funny...:hysterical: It really sounded like you were agreeing with me.

It's not quite so simple as choosing to serve another god. For example: if it were merely a matter of choosing then why doesn't Yahweh simply allow people to go on their merry way? Instead Yahweh supposedly created a place of eternal torment to send those who do not worship him, so in a sense he is saying "choose me or die!".

As for your question of "why do I bother with a mythological god" well, it is because once I found my freedom from a set of imposed doctrines drawn from a male biased book that has controlled the lives of millions, I felt the need to share my joy with others. I am free to ask any question, and search out its answer with an open mind...

All the Best,
Rose

Richard Amiel McGough

08-30-2011, 11:15 AM

Thanks Rose. Your clarification does help me understand your reasonings much better. I appreciate that.

I am more inclined to believe this:

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
2Pe 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Blessings to you,
Rick

Hi Rick,

I can see why you would be inclined to believe that. I felt the same way for many years. But then I came to understand that the Bible contains errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations which it attributes to God. So I found myself on the horns of a dilemma I have yet to resolve: There is much evidence that the Bible is "from God" in some sense, and there is much evidence that it is the creation of fallible men. I used to think that this followed the pattern of Christ as the Word incarnate - fully human and fully divine. But now I see that doesn't work because there was no "sin" or error in Christ, but there is much about the Bible that is erroneous and downright evil (such as God's command to kill all the men, women, and children in the promised land).

How do you understand this problem?

Great chatting!

Richard

heb13-13

08-30-2011, 12:15 PM

Gil

08-30-2011, 12:33 PM

Howdy Rick and Beck,

Quote: Rick > [So, if Jesus is so lovey-dovey, why did He say this? ]

Gil > You forget about audience relevance.
Most of the dialog was being addressed to the Children of
Israel, that were under the covenant of Death.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ would be given to Paul, and
was directed at a dual audience. Jews and all others that were in the flesh , outside of the Children of Israel.

Don't get the old age confused with the new.

Mat 25:30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Gil > The light that is life, is within a man ,not exterior of him.
It is either the true light of the Father or the light of Man.
The light that is outside of God is the manifestation of mortal life.
The servants were in the presence of their master who was the light.
To be cast out from his presence is to be in outer darkness, set apart from the Father and the Son.
Same thing happened to the first Adam. He was cast into outer darkness when the presence of God departed from him.
It is the same as turning one back over to Satan.
I myself was once ex-communicated ,and turned back over to Satan, because I told them that they were not teaching the Light and Life that is of the Gospel.

Mat 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Gil > "Depart from me', is in the same way , as being out of his presence.

The Holy Spirit carries a two edged sword.
The word of God made manifest is as a burning fire,
The children thrown into the fiery furnace were not harmed
As they were in the presence of God.
His fire can purge ones soul of sin, as in the refining of gold.
It sears the conscience.
Jesus Christ baptizes with fire , not water.
As a consuming fire , it has been prepared for the Devil and his
Angels ( messengers).
Mans mind without the presence of God is his own Hell.
The dwelling place of the Spirit of Man outside the presence
Of God.

Mat 25:46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Gil > To go away, is once again to depart from his presence.

Everlasting is not eternal.
Man is his own worst enemy, and he that wishes to be the
Captain of his own ship and master of his own destiny will
Reap the curses of their own making.

The unrighteous were the Children of Israel who were under
The Law of Death.
Righteousness can not be had through the works of the hands
( or minds) of man.
One in Christ must accept the Righteousness of Jesus Christ as his own righteousness, and through him is eternal life.

Quote: Rick > [ It is interesting how you characterize Him. Does He send or do we choose? If we choose to serve other gods during our stay here on earth, won't it be more comfortable for us to continue to serve those same gods in eternity, who we devoted our entire earthly existence to? If we hated Him on earth, what would make us all of a sudden love Him in eternity? It won't be comfortable for us to be with Him in eternity if we did not desire His company on earth. ]

Gil > There is only one God and all other Gods are man made .
There is only one God who gave life to all thing things upon the earth, be that life mortal or Eternal.
Only within life , is one out of eternal darkness.
Everlasting darkness is to be without or away from the presence of God.
Either one moves on ,within the plan and purpose of God for man or he does not.
Eternal darkness is lights out, a life that is no more and within the eternal darkness of Death.
No memory, no spirit, no soul, no nothing. It is good by charley.

The Gods of the flesh man are all environmental Gods of the sky or earth,
given the traits and characteristics of man.
They are nowhere to be found within the presence of the Father and the Son, whether on this earth , or where ever Heaven is , the one outside of the Mind of man.

Quote: Rick > [If we hated Him on earth, what would make us all of a sudden love Him in eternity?]

Gil > You wouldn't.
After you died to the flesh, you would not exist anymore.

What is of one age is confined to that age.

It is the Son of God Jesus Christ who has shown us the way ,the truth and the life.
We are to follow him into an eternal existence.

There was only one unpardonable sin that was to be exercised against the children of Israel.
That being " blasphemy of the Holy Spirit".
Even though we are now within the Gospel of Grace, it is probably just as valid today.

Gil
-----------

Hi Beck,

Quote: Beck > [ If that problem was that they only saw one side of God as the war God then that wasn't the case at all for God showed them his love with correction. ]

Gil > Correction? More like they were trying to correct themselves through the Law of cause and effect. Every time they screwed up, they placed themselves in greater and greater bondage. The Law being the straw that broke the camels back.

The Generations of Adam lost their relationship and the presence of God.
God only spoke to them for the most part through their prophets.
They would know both good and evil. The two faces of their God Jehovah.
The face of Man and the face of God.
The one of Good and the one of Evil.

Jehovah was their God of two faces. The Spirit of Man and the Spirit of God.
The weak, frail Enos was the first to call on the name of Jehovah.

The war God Yahwah , that of their own Spirit through Cain did not hang around the Ark all the time.
It was only when they had placed themselves within dire straights and needed a God of war to lead them in battle to destroy their enemies, would they call on the name of Yahwah. God was not leading them into the promised land, They took it through war and destroying all that was in heir path and devoting (sacrificed) them to their God Yahwah.

It was Israel who was like a locust army.

Do you call leading them out of Egypt an act of love and correction?
Do you think that God would put them within a covenant of Death?
The true God does not and has never changed.
The bondage of Egypt was a far cry easier than the Law. Being yoked to a cruel taskmaster was a greater bondage.
But who would want them to be under bondage to him. The true God?
I don't think so.
The children of Israel actually believed that Yahwah was a God and that Abraham also knew him by another name.
Abraham did, as Jehovah.
Abraham heard the voice of both the Spirit of Man and the Spirit of the true God.

They had been introduced to Yahwah by the Kenite Priest Jethro, who's linage
was that of Cain.

Exodus 2:21 And Moses was content to dwell with the man: and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter.

Exodus 2:22 And she bare [him] a son, and he called his name Gershom: for he said, I have been a stranger in a strange land.

Exodus 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn:

Gil > Israel , after the generations of Adam ,after he fell away from the presence of the true God which was within the earth.
The Spirit of man was of the spirit of Cain, the first born in the flesh by Man.
Israel's soul also belonged to the Spirit of man.

The first begotten of the Father, the true God was Jesus Christ.

Exodus 4:23 And I say unto thee, ( My insert, "Moses" ) Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, [even] thy firstborn.

Exodus 4:25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast [it] at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband [art] thou to me.

Gil > She cast it ay the feet of the angel of the LORD. He was the bloody husband.

Exodus 4:26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband [thou art], because of the circumcision.

Gil > It can be argued that Abraham may have circumcised Isaac , as a sign of purification because of the promised seed that was to come of his loins.
Just as well it could be said that it was the sign/ mark of Cain. He being the first to shed blood. That of Abel.

Gil > The firstborn throughout the generations of Adam who fell, were all claimed by Satan, the Spirit of Adam and who was also made manifest through his first born son in the flesh ,Cain.
Satan, the Spirit of Cain also claimed the first born of Moses' , Gershom.

The promised seed was to be the last man in the flesh of the generations of Adam.
The promised seed through the loins of man through Abraham was passed on through the second born.

Exodus 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.

Gil > He came to kill Gershom.

Exodus 18:19 Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God:

Gil > It was Jethro that gave council unto Moses.

It looks more like the children of Adam and Eve began to worship Jehovah,
The two faces of good and evil.
It would be Yahwah, who in a way can be looked at as being the Son of Jehovah through Cain that became the Husband and God of the Israelites at Sinai.
Evil had found a crack in the door.

Yahwah was within the Ark of the Covenant of Death ( at least in the Holy of Holies).
It was he that the children of Israel expected to be transfigured from a Spirit to a man in the flesh as their Messiah.

It would, however, be Jesus Christ the Son of the True God of life , not Yahwah who would be their Messiah.

Gil :pop2:

Richard Amiel McGough

08-30-2011, 01:12 PM

Hi Richard,

Good to hear from you. I have been enjoying so many threads for a long while and have been conflicted about posting for several reasons, not the least of which is that I am so busy with my family and day job. But, that aside, I wanted to tell you that I have greatly enjoyed your Biblewheel book. I ordered two and have been very blessed by the book and still am.

To your question and your dilemma. I have not yet encountered the proverbial "fork in the road" that you have and to your question, I will have to think and pray on it. That is not a cop out, I think it is a good question.

Are you referring to the following?

Exo 22:24 And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.

Probably not, because the wives and children are still alive. What is your reference?

Thanks,

Best wishes,
Rick
Hi Rick,

It is very good to be discussing these issues with you. I have a sense that it will go well since you read my book and know where I was coming from before I hit the "fork in the road." For many years I held the Bible in the highest esteem - so high in fact that I was blind to much of what it actually said. Case in point:
Deuteronomy 2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:
This kind of "total destruction" against the indigenous people was frequently commanded by God:
Deuteronomy 3:4 And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many. 6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.
All the men, women, and children! And in again in 1 Samuel:
1 Samuel 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
Now if you want to really understand where I am coming from and why this disturbs me so deeply, you need only imagine you were an Israeli soldier. The Lord God Almighty has commanded you to slay everyone. So you go forth and find a village. You rip open a tent and see a 17 year old mother of two - one toddler and one at her breast - and she begs for her life, but you have no mercy, no kindness, no humanity as you swing your sword and slice her toddler in half. Her face is now covered in the blood and guts of her firstborn, and she screams and begs for mercy again, but you have no mercy. You are obeying your God and have become a baby-killer. She begs again, she clings to your feet and you kicker her away like a dog and bring down your sword, impaling her baby and her heart in one fell swoop. Then you move on to the next tent, and the next, and the next until your soul is brutalized to the point of death.

This is what I meant when I said that the Bible attributes moral abominations unto God. How do you deal with these facts?

All the best,

Richard

heb13-13

08-30-2011, 01:13 PM

Howdy Rick and Beck,

Gil > There is only one God and all other Gods are man made .
There is only one God who gave life to all thing things upon the earth, be that life mortal or Eternal.

Only within life, is one out of eternal darkness.
Everlasting darkness is to be without or away from the presence of God.
Either one moves on ,within the plan and purpose of God for man or he does not.

Eternal darkness is lights out, a life that is no more and within the eternal darkness of Death.

No memory, no spirit, no soul, no nothing. It is good by charley.

The Gods of the flesh man are all environmental Gods of the sky or earth,
given the traits and characteristics of man.

They are nowhere to be found within the presence of the Father and the Son, whether on this earth , or where ever Heaven is , the one outside of the Mind of man.

Quote: Rick > [If we hated Him on earth, what would make us all of a sudden love Him in eternity?]

Gil > You wouldn't.
After you died to the flesh, you would not exist anymore.

What is of one age is confined to that age.

Gil :pop2:

Hi Gil,

The only reference to eternal darkness/everlasting darkness that I can find is here:

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

So, I don't understand how it is "lights out".

Kind regards,
Rick

heb13-13

08-30-2011, 01:18 PM

Hi Rick,

It is very good to be discussing these issues with you. I have a sense that it will go well since you read my book and know where I was coming from before I hit the "fork in the road." For many years I held the Bible in the highest esteem - so high in fact that I was blind to much of what it actually said. Case in point:

Deuteronomy 2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:
This kind of "total destruction" against the indigenous people was frequently commanded by God:

Deuteronomy 3:4 And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many. 6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.
All the men, women, and children! And in again in 1 Samuel:

1 Samuel 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
Now if you want to really understand where I am coming from and why this disturbs me so deeply, you need only imagine you were an Israeli soldier. The Lord God Almighty has commanded you to slay everyone. So you go forth and find a village. You rip open a tent and see a 17 year old mother of two - one toddler and one at her breast - and she begs for her life, but you have no mercy, no kindness, no humanity as you swing your sword and slice her toddler in half. Her face is now covered in the blood and guts of her firstborn, and she screams and begs for mercy again, but you have no mercy. You are obeying your God and have become a baby-killer. She begs again, she clings to your feet and you kicker her away like a dog and bring down your sword, impaling her baby and her heart in one fell swoop. Then you move on to the next tent, and the next, and the next until your soul is brutalized to the point of death.

This is what I meant when I said that the Bible attributes moral abominations unto God. How do you deal with these facts?

All the best,

Richard

Hi Richard,

I clearly understand your question and the dilemma it poses for you. I don't think my answer will be a "traditional one", although it may be long-winded. I generally know what I want to say, but need time to develop it specifically and correctly. You are a very patient person so I know you won't mind waiting a spell. I see that I missed one of Rose's answers and don't want her to feel slighted so I will respond to her now.

Grace and peace to you,
Rick

P.S. Yes, it will go well. I have a genuine love and respect for you and Rose.

heb13-13

08-30-2011, 01:52 PM

Hi Rick,

That's too funny...:hysterical: It really sounded like you were agreeing with me.

It's not quite so simple as choosing to serve another god. For example: if it were merely a matter of choosing then why doesn't Yahweh simply allow people to go on their merry way? Instead Yahweh supposedly created a place of eternal torment to send those who do not worship him, so in a sense he is saying "choose me or die!".

All the Best,
Rose

Hi Rose,

Glad you could find some humor in my post. We may disagree, but that is not the end of the world, is it?

I think you are right that in a sense, He is saying, "Choose me or die". The Lord never sugarcoats things. If someone is teetering on a cliff and about to plunge to their death, and you say choose this rope I am handing you or you will die, you are only telling them what the consequence of not choosing the rope will be. You are not pushing them off the cliff. On the contrary, you are trying to save them, but they have to reach out and choose that rope.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

As for your question of "why do I bother with a mythological god" well, it is because once I found my freedom from a set of imposed doctrines drawn from a male biased book that has controlled the lives of millions, I felt the need to share my joy with others. I am free to ask any question, and search out its answer with an open mind...

That is kind of a bummer that men (Churchianity) imposed doctrines on you, but that is what they do and they do it very well. I think it is all part of the different "tests" that God has set up for us, to reveal our hearts and what is in them. This world is a wilderness, fraught with many dangers and plenty of tests.

Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come;

It certainly is a joyous experience to be free from the influence of men, especially religious men and I share in your joy. It is a wonderful feeling to know that God is not so fragile and can handle any question we have. Not only that, but He handles us shaking our fist at Him and cussing Him out from time to time. Look how Israel treated Him in the OT. He is definitely the Solid Rock, wouldn't you say?

I got saved outside of modern Christendom on a beach in the Philipines. Came back to the U.S. about 18 months later and just could not stomach "going to church". It was not that apparent to me, though. Kind of like the proverbial frog in the water. My first 18 months "in the Lord", I felt like I was living in the book of Acts. I could not help but speak of the "things which I had seen" to many people and I witnessed the Lord do mighty things in many lives. I just simply believed and acted on what I read in the Word. I found out that the more I acted on the Word, the more I understood it. It has very little if nothing to do with intellectual ascent.

When I came back to the States, I wanted to be a "good Christian" and I thought the way to do that was to "go to church". I was young in many ways. So, I became a pew sitter and fellowshipped with the back of someone's head for a couple of hours each Sunday. Did this for about year or so. Not only did I feel like "life" was draining out of me, I realized I did not agree with a lot that was being said from the pulpit. After the service, the person next to me would shake my hand and exclaim that "it was good fellowship" and tell me that he would see me next Sunday. The problem was, it wasn't fellowship at all!

I left and I knew deep down inside me that it was the right thing to do.

Since then, I have fellowshipped with Christians informally (in living rooms, cafes, work, all manner of places, etc), with the exception of about 2 years in a "non-denominational" Institutional Church. I guess I wanted to go back and see if things were really that bad and yes, things were really that bad!!

I left again.

It has been 34 years now and I prefer to be where Jesus is, outside the camp. It has been an interesting journey and I wouldn't trade it for anything. But first and foremost, it is very important to extricate oneself from the imposition of men.

This is my very short version.

Things are never as simple as they seem to be and usually much more complex.

Good to be fellowshipping with you,
Rick

CWH

08-30-2011, 01:59 PM

[QUOTE=RAM;34341]
[/INDENT]Now if you want to really understand where I am coming from and why this disturbs me so deeply, you need only imagine you were an Israeli soldier. The Lord God Almighty has commanded you to slay everyone. So you go forth and find a village. You rip open a tent and see a 17 year old mother of two - one toddler and one at her breast - and she begs for her life, but you have no mercy, no kindness, no humanity as you swing your sword and slice her toddler in half. Her face is now covered in the blood and guts of her firstborn, and she screams and begs for mercy again, but you have no mercy. You are obeying your God and have become a baby-killer. She begs again, she clings to your feet and you kicker her away like a dog and bring down your sword, impaling her baby and her heart in one fell swoop. Then you move on to the next tent, and the next, and the next until your soul is brutalized to the point of death.

This is what I meant when I said that the Bible attributes moral abominations unto God. How do you deal with these facts?

Let's see it from a different angle. What if God commanded you to slay the women and children and told you to do so as He intends to teach these evil people a lesson by subjecting them to the suffering in Hell but being merciful, He will raise them up again at a later time and give them another chance. However if you do not kill them, these evil people will in return kill you and your children and your family and God will punished you instead for your disobedience. God is also testing you for your faith in him and your obedience. It's like an army officer who commanded his soldier to kill the enemy when he can actually do it himself in order to test if the soldier is disciplined enough to obey and respect his command, failing to do so, the army officer will have the soldier court-martialed for disobeying his command.

In God we trust, Amen. :pray:

Richard Amiel McGough

08-30-2011, 02:04 PM

Hi Richard,

I clearly understand your question and the dilemma it poses for you. I don't think my answer will be a "traditional one", although it may be long-winded. I generally know what I want to say, but need time to develop it specifically and correctly. You are a very patient person so I know you won't mind waiting a spell. I see that I missed one of Rose's answers and don't want her to feel slighted so I will respond to her now.

Grace and peace to you,
Rick

P.S. Yes, it will go well. I have a genuine love and respect for you and Rose.
Sounds great Rick. And you are right - there is no rush at all. That's what I love about this form of communication - the conversation can be picked up and continued after long breaks.

Beck

08-30-2011, 02:16 PM

Hi Beck,

Quote: Beck > [ If that problem was that they only saw one side of God as the war God then that wasn't the case at all for God showed them his love with correction. ]

Gil > Correction? More like they were trying to correct themselves through the Law of cause and effect. Every time they screwed up, they placed themselves in greater and greater bondage. The Law being the straw that broke the camels back.

Hi Gil,

I would say if there was shown to them the only one side the war God to them it would make for a very short time to their destruction, but we don't see that at all. What we see is the mercy of God with love that he didn't forsake them in the land of Egypt, but love them to lead them out and give to them the land promised to those that believed and obeyed..

God even used their correction in that he had them taken captive and used that to show the nations the grace of God that would allow for their restoration.

Rose

08-30-2011, 02:47 PM

Hi Rose,

Glad you could find some humor in my post. We may disagree, but that is not the end of the world, is it?

I think you are right that in a sense, He is saying, "Choose me or die". The Lord never sugarcoats things. If someone is teetering on a cliff and about to plunge to their death, and you say choose this rope I am handing you or you will die, you are only telling them what the consequence of not choosing the rope will be. You are not pushing them off the cliff. On the contrary, you are trying to save them, but they have to reach out and choose that rope.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

That is kind of a bummer that men (Churchianity) imposed doctrines on you, but that is what they do and they do it very well. I think it is all part of the different "tests" that God has set up for us, to reveal our hearts and what is in them. This world is a wilderness, fraught with many dangers and plenty of tests.

Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come;

It certainly is a joyous experience to be free from the influence of men, especially religious men and I share in your joy. It is a wonderful feeling to know that God is not so fragile and can handle any question we have. Not only that, but He handles us shaking our fist at Him and cussing Him out from time to time. Look how Israel treated Him in the OT. He is definitely the Solid Rock, wouldn't you say?
Hi Rick,

Great conversation! Thanks for entering in...:signthankspin:
The way the Bible presents the consequences of not grabbing the rope that "God" is handing to people is to not only tell them that they will suffer consequences, but the consequences that they will suffer are created by "God", as is clearly stated in Revelation. That is a much different picture than merely falling off a cliff because a person won't grab onto the rope that is handed to them.
Rev.20:14-15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You mentioned that "God" is big enough to handle people shaking their fists at him, but I'm not so sure about that! The Old Testament is filled with stories of "God" venting his wrath at humanity by slaughtering them. First it starts with wiping out the entire world with a Flood, then wiping out two entire cities (Sodom and Gomorrah), continuing on with slaughtering hundreds of thousands of pagans and Hebrews for various transgressions (pretty much shaking their fists at God)...all in all it was a bloody mess.:eek:

I got saved outside of modern Christendom on a beach in the Philipines. Came back to the U.S. about 18 months later and just could not stomach "going to church". It was not that apparent to me, though. Kind of like the proverbial frog in the water. My first 18 months "in the Lord", I felt like I was living in the book of Acts. I could not help but speak of the "things which I had seen" to many people and I witnessed the Lord do mighty things in many lives. I just simply believed and acted on what I read in the Word. I found out that the more I acted on the Word, the more I understood it. It has very little if nothing to do with intellectual ascent.

When I came back to the States, I wanted to be a "good Christian" and I thought the way to do that was to "go to church". I was young in many ways. So, I became a pew sitter and fellowshipped with the back of someone's head for a couple of hours each Sunday. Did this for about year or so. Not only did I feel like "life" was draining out of me, I realized I did not agree with a lot that was being said from the pulpit. After the service, the person next to me would shake my hand and exclaim that "it was good fellowship" and tell me that he would see me next Sunday. The problem was, it wasn't fellowship at all!

I left and I knew deep down inside me that it was the right thing to do.

Since then, I have fellowshipped with Christians informally (in living rooms, cafes, work, all manner of places, etc), with the exception of about 2 years in a "non-denominational" Institutional Church. I guess I wanted to go back and see if things were really that bad and yes, things were really that bad!!

I left again.

It has been 34 years now and I prefer to be where Jesus is, outside the camp. It has been an interesting journey and I wouldn't trade it for anything. But first and foremost, it is very important to extricate oneself from the imposition of men.

This is my very short version.

Things are never as simple as they seem to be and usually much more complex.

Good to be fellowshipping with you,
Rick

Great to be fellow-shipping with you also. :D

You sound like a very intelligent fellow that is in the same place Richard and I were in up until a couple years ago. My journey too is one I wouldn't trade, because it is what has lead me to where I am today and my future looks wide open.

All the Best in your continued journey,
Rose

Bob May

08-31-2011, 10:02 AM

First off I believe that what we read of "God" in the Bible is ONLY mans projection of what they perceived the creator of the universe to be like. If there is a divine source for everything that exists, it is by no means anything like the masculine warrior god, Yahweh, but man in his struggle to understand the cosmos and how it was created began to project images from the archetypes of his own unconscious onto an external being. The evidence for this is clearly seen throughout the different myths and religions of humanity; and as the cultures changed so did their gods.

This is very evident in whole of the Bible where we can see the image of Yahweh changing with the progression of time. The warrior god still remains in the New Testament, but he is presented in a more "toned down" way. Instead of Yahweh commanding the slaughter of men and women in this life for transgressions (except in Revelation) as was done in the Old Testament, we find in the New Testament the idea of "Hell" introduced and eternal damnation as a punishment for those who do not receive salvation.

When Jesus entered Jewish history he focused more on the forgiving side of "God" in this life and pushed the idea of punishment off to the next life. Yahweh of the Old Testament also had a forgiving side, but generally the focus was on his violent, vengeful side which was manifest by killing people in this life (starting with the mass slaughter of mankind in the Flood story) verses sending transgressors off to eternal punishment which is focused on in the New Testament. All the Best,
Rose

Hi Rose and all,

You mentioned perception. Man's perception of what God and Reality are does change even though God does not. If we are progressing in our search for Truth, our perception changes and our entire "doctrine" changes as well.
Even without the law of cause and effect blessing and cursing we all still have that world view to begin with. It is how Mankind thinks because of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
"For the gentiles having not the law are a law unto themselves...," etc.

The "Promised Land" is an awareness that we are living in a world we did not realized existed before coming to it. How could we if we have never before experienced it?
Jacob layed his head down in a "certain place" and had a dream and vision.
His words, upon awakening, told the story of the Awareness that came with this dream.
"Surely the Lord is in this place and I knew it not." This awareness colored his entire world view. But the strength of that vision and awareness did not remain with him. But the reality and memory of it did. It was promised to his seed after him. They would possess it (or stay in that state of awareness.)

This is the Promised Land. To experience it is one thing, but to stay in it takes a house cleaning of our wrong ways of thinking. Those ways of thinking that keep us from staying fully in that state of consciousness called the Promised Land.

In biology there is the processes called metabolism. Anabolic and katabolic processes. That is as far as my knowledge goes in this subject, but it is the process by which we become new every so many years. New cells are produced and old cells die off and are gotten rid of.

Take that same process and apply it to consciousness and our ability to percieve Truth and the nature of God. Killing off the other tribes would be akin to cancer surgery. Every cell must be gotten rid of at a molecular level or the disease will come back.

Those are the wars in the Old Testament. Some things can be saved, (like the Tresures of Egypt) some cannot be saved Men Women and Children of certain enemy tribes of the children of Israel.
Doctrines create "offspring." One thought leads to others in an orderly fashion. If this, then this etc.
Certain forks in the road lead to death. Look at Isaac and Ishmael, or Jacob and Esau. Or better yet Cain and Abel.

Someone mentioned it sounded like God was saying "worship me or die."
On the other hand it could be said "Worship the other gods And die."
It can be looked at as a warning or a threat depending on your outlook.
When my oldest boy first walked in the road without permission I spanked him.
(I had lost a 7 year old nephew to a hit and run accident when I was in my twenties.)
I hated spanking my son but it taught him not to run into the street.
It was a warning, not a threat. I did not jump in my car and run him over because he had walked into the road.

That is the way I see the OT. God is powerful and death is final and we get warnings when we stray. But the straying is our way of viewing Reality and God. God is and has always been trying to correct our thinking and our doctrines. It is Man that asked Moses to go and talk to God. They wanted no part of it.
So God uses the Law to lead us to Christ.
Once we are lead to Christ we should be able to look back at the law and see other things within it that we did not see before. "Study to show thyself approved of God..."

Jesus said he came to show us the way and that he was the Way.
He also said that Moses wrote of him.

All the best,
Bob

Gil

09-01-2011, 11:57 AM

Howdy again Rick,

Quote : Rick > [ The only reference to eternal darkness/everlasting darkness that I can find is here: ] [ So, I don't understand how it is "lights out". ]

Gil >
Call it a figure of speech then.
The light of God is life. When that light is extinguished through death
there is only Darkness left.

A couple of verses.

Ecclesiastes 9:3 This [is] an evil among all [things] that are done under the sun, that [there is] one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness [is] in their heart while they live, and after that [they go] to the dead.

Ecclesiastes 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

There are only three major facets that can be brought into play as an
afterlife consequence . ( IMO ).

1. Christian Annihilationism.
2. Christian Universalism.
3. A fiery Hell of unending torment.

A Fiery Hell is out of the question. It was never taught within the confines
of Judaism or early Christianity, that is, in the oldest manuscripts.
It is a but another form of bondage as destructive as was the Law.
Translation errors at there best and Christian mythology as the least.

I chose annihilation for only those that one would call pure evil or those who had heard the word of God in advance in regard to the promised seed to come unto the Jews or the Christ unto all flesh outside of the Jews.
To hear and reject is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and is the only unforgivable sin.
Annihilation is not a vengeful or hateful thing. As it is a choice that was made by the individual.

Even those outside of Christianity that had/have not heard the Gospel were/are judged according to their actions and deeds. ( IMO ).

Universalism is to great a free lunch. ( IMO).

Gil :pop2:

Gil

09-01-2011, 12:05 PM

Howdy Beck,

Quote : Beck > Hi Gil,

[ I would say if there was shown to them the only one side the war God to them it would make for a very short time to their destruction, but we don't see that at all. What we see is the mercy of God with love that he didn't forsake them in the land of Egypt, but love them to lead them out and give to them the land promised to those that believed and obeyed..

God even used their correction in that he had them taken captive and used that to show the nations the grace of God that would allow for their restoration. ]

Gil>

The actions of the Children of Israel is what always got them in trouble.
Why do you think that her prophets were always prophesying a judgment against them.
There was another Spirit that entered unto Adam in the Garden. Some say Satan, but I call him the Spirit of Man.
The children that became Israel were of the generations of Adam.
Which Spirit would hold them sway over their generations. Not
God the Father that would also have a first and only begotten Son in Jesus Christ.

Adam and Eve had departed from the presence of God and so had their children.

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn:

Who's son? The only begotten son of God the Father was Jesus Christ.
Israel was not Jesus Christ the only begotten of the Father.

Israel had a Spirit and Soul all of her own, which began in the Garden after the fall.
The first born of Adam and Eve, now Gods, ( Their own spirit and soul) would have a son ,the first born unto them. His name was Cain.
The Children of Israel belonged to Satan. He was the one who always came to their aid ,only to put them in greater bondage than before. They finally made him an Ark and later built him a Temple in which to dwell.

Who offered Jesus all the riches and Kingdoms upon the earth, and could do so because they were his to offer up.
His domain was the entire earth.

His final act of bondage would be the Law of Death.

The worst thing that all the translators of scripture fell prone to was in their
rendering of names given to divinity.
They got so screwed up .it is hard to see who is doing the speaking.

Gil :pop2:
--------------------

Gil

09-01-2011, 12:10 PM

Howdy ,Rick and Beck,

Gil >

It should be plain enough of language, to see that GOD had a partner when it came to forming any kind of life upon the earth.
That partner was the Earth/Land itself who was seen as a female counterpart of GOD.
She would form man out of the dust of her own bosom as if from a womb.

God would say, "now has man become as one of us" (plural) .

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

GOD had finished his work of creating at the end of the sixth day.
Then he rested from all his work.

It would be during the darkness of the Sabbath day, the seventh, that Man in the flesh became as a God, to know good and evil.
They ate of the tree, and like the serpent said, they would become as Gods.
Who ? Adam and Eve.
They would now become as an US and OUR of the sixth day.
Both male and female Gods that would have dominion over the Earth.

A fallen Spirit and Soul ,that would become the parents of the generations of the Hebrew children.

They would continue to create/bara through their own minds .
Thoughts, ideas and concepts coming from the spirit, mind, soul of
degenerate Man in the flesh.

All the ancient Gods and Goddesses, of the sky and earth would be made manifest through them.

All Evil and Good that has occurred and even now occurs is of the God called
fallen Man.

Only through man could a reversal be made.

It was through Jesus Christ the Son of the True God of life, and not through
the son of man, first born in the flesh, Cain.

The Spirit of the true God would speak to and through man from time to time through the Prophets of Israel . Primarily words of Judgment, and the word of God that a promised seed would come.

Christians are to alleviate the evil within the world as much as they can, but the fact remains that Christians are a minority and always will be.
I don't think that within the plan and purpose of God for his creation and that of life itself was to be confined to this earth/planet.

Through the Son of God , the way, truth and life is to move man forward
out of this environment to yet another one.

Evil and good will be present upon this earth as long as there is man in the flesh.

Evil is not of the True God, but shines through the face of the God called Man.

Gil :pop2:

heb13-13

09-01-2011, 02:38 PM

Hey Rose,

Just checking in and wanted to get some thoughts on paper before I forgot about them.

Hopefully, you and Richard just quit "christianity" and not Christ. Jesus, Himself has quit modern christendom, also. Actually, He was never a "member".

I was wondering what you thought of these verses in light of your characterization of God.

Job 40:6 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Job 40:9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
Job 40:10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.
Job 40:11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.
Job 40:12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.
Job 40:13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.
Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

Curious about your response, but also curious how you would handle the proud and the wicked and if you were God how would you have handled all the wicked people before the Flood?

Hope your day is going well,
Rick

P.S. Still formulating my answer to you, although it is seeming to lose it's importance because it will probably only be A answer and not THE answer. Meaning, I don't believe my answer to you will be one that satisfies you because I think your issue with God is much deeper than what an answer to one question can solve. I have never felt like I have to defend God and have often, easily said, "I don't know". I have had hard questions for Him, also. I definitely think we should know that we have the freedom to ask Him the hardest questions we can think of. But then...we just have to wait for an answer. If we don't get our questions answered...what do we do? I think the outcome always reveals more about us than God.

I believe in the end, Job found out more about himself than he found out about God.

Sometimes they don't come. We walk by faith trusting in Him. We will most certainly die without getting all of our questions answered.

Isn't it interesting what Paul thinks of God:
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

I wonder if Paul knew the answer to your question? I know the Holy Spirit does, so I am asking...

Brother Les

09-01-2011, 04:42 PM

heb13-13
Isn't it interesting what Paul thinks of God:
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

I wonder if Paul knew the answer to your question? I know the Holy Spirit does, so I am asking...

Who is the 'us' that Paul is refering to? Do we assume that YHWH does not grant mercy on those not of Pauls 'us'? YHWH/Jesus is a God of Wrath to those who are not of Pauls' 'us'.

Welcome to the Forum heb 13:13. Are you a Hebrew that is 'outside the Camp'?

Heb 13:
11For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

12Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

13Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

heb13-13

09-02-2011, 07:39 AM

Who is the 'us' that Paul is refering to? Do we assume that YHWH does not grant mercy on those not of Pauls 'us'? YHWH/Jesus is a God of Wrath to those who are not of Pauls' 'us'.

Welcome to the Forum heb 13:13. Are you a Hebrew that is 'outside the Camp'?

Heb 13:
11For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

12Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

13Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

Hi Les,

Glad to make your acquaintance.

Col 4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

1Th 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.

Paul's epistles (God's Word) are meant for all the holy brethren.

I have the witness in my heart that the "us" includes me, and so, even though Paul does not know me personally, the Lord does, and I am included in the "us".

If you are not part of the company of "holy brethren", you will not have this witness in your heart that God is rich in mercy and has a great love for us. You don't have to have answers to every question to "know" this in your heart, you just have to have experienced HIM, through death and resurrection.

Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

The key, is the Holy Ghost given unto us which gives us an "understanding" regarding the nature and heart of God without having to know the answer to every opposition question against Him. You don't have to have all knowledge and be able to articulate answers to every man to know that God is good, ALL THE TIME.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Regarding whether I am Jew or Gentile, today, I do not regard myself as either of those, but rather a NEW MAN in Christ.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God (no other distinctions) by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

BC (before Christ), I was born gentile, but now, born from above, a NEW MAN.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Praise ye the LORD. Praise, O ye servants of the LORD, praise the name of the LORD. Blessed be the name of the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. From the rising of the sun unto the going down of the same the LORD'S name is to be praised.
Psa 113:1-3

I hope my answers were of some satisfaction to you,

Kind regards,
Rick

Rose

09-02-2011, 08:17 AM

Hey Rose,

Just checking in and wanted to get some thoughts on paper before I forgot about them.

Hopefully, you and Richard just quit "christianity" and not Christ. Jesus, Himself has quit modern christendom, also. Actually, He was never a "member".
Hi Rick,

Yes, Richard and I have both quit "Christianity", but we also have re-defined who we think Jesus was. No, he was never a "member" of the Christian faith, but neither do I believe he was the son of the god portrayed in the Bible. Jesus was a man born and raised a Jew, whose consciousness was enlightened to a point of being able to see beyond the limited perceptions of his people and their warrior god, Yahweh. Much like Buddha, or Confucius before him, Jesus tried to change ideas by working within the culture he was born in and then spreading those concepts to the world.

I was wondering what you thought of these verses in light of your characterization of God.

Job 40:6 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Job 40:9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
Job 40:10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.
Job 40:11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.
Job 40:12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.
Job 40:13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.
Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

Curious about your response, but also curious how you would handle the proud and the wicked and if you were God how would you have handled all the wicked people before the Flood?

Hope your day is going well,
Rick

P.S. Still formulating my answer to you, although it is seeming to lose it's importance because it will probably only be A answer and not THE answer. Meaning, I don't believe my answer to you will be one that satisfies you because I think your issue with God is much deeper than what an answer to one question can solve. I have never felt like I have to defend God and have often, easily said, "I don't know". I have had hard questions for Him, also. I definitely think we should know that we have the freedom to ask Him the hardest questions we can think of. But then...we just have to wait for an answer. If we don't get our questions answered...what do we do? I think the outcome always reveals more about us than God.

I believe in the end, Job found out more about himself than he found out about God.

Sometimes they don't come. We walk by faith trusting in Him. We will most certainly die without getting all of our questions answered.

Isn't it interesting what Paul thinks of God:
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

I wonder if Paul knew the answer to your question? I know the Holy Spirit does, so I am asking...

I think the Bibles wisdom comes from showing us what people have found out about themselves...presented in the manner of an external god giving decrees. One can easily map the progress of human consciousness from the Old Testament to the New Testament by looking at the change in the ways sinful people were punished.

All through the Old Testament killing people on a massive scale is presented as God's remedy for evil, then suddenly with the advent of the New Testament punishment for evil people who don't repent is pushed off to the next life (torture in Hell for eternity)...quite a change wouldn't you say?

One big question I think that each of us needs to ask ourselves is, "Why should I start with the premise that the Bible is the word of God, and not a collection of man's perceptions of who they thought god was?" I think many people take it as a given that the Bible is the word of God, without ever questioning its validity.

It's a pretty obvious clue that a god is man-made when all his attributes are qualities that humans have, and Yahweh fits into that slot very well: he is masculine, jealous, vengeful, wrathful, demands praise, worship, and obedience or else punishment will be meted out, conditional love for those who praise and worship him, eternal torment for those who don't...the list could go on, and on. Something to think about?

All the best to you,
Rose

heb13-13

09-02-2011, 08:33 AM

Hi Rick,

Yes, Richard and I have both quit "Christianity", but we also have re-defined who we think Jesus was. No, he was never a "member" of the Christian faith, but neither do I believe he was the son of the god portrayed in the Bible. Jesus was a man born and raised a Jew, whose consciousness was enlightened to a point of being able to see beyond the limited perceptions of his people and their warrior god, Yahweh. Much like Buddha, or Confucius before him, Jesus tried to change ideas by working within the culture he was born in and then spreading those concepts to the world.

I think the Bibles wisdom comes from showing us what people have found out about themselves...presented in the manner of an external god giving decrees. One can easily map the progress of human consciousness from the Old Testament to the New Testament by looking at the change in the ways sinful people were punished.

All through the Old Testament killing people on a massive scale is presented as God's remedy for evil, then suddenly with the advent of the New Testament punishment for evil people who don't repent is pushed off to the next life (torture in Hell for eternity)...quite a change wouldn't you say?

One big question I think that each of us needs to ask ourselves is, "Why should I start with the premise that the Bible is the word of God, and not a collection of man's perceptions of who they thought god was?" I think many people take it as a given that the Bible is the word of God, without ever questioning its validity.

It's a pretty obvious clue that a god is man-made when all his attributes are qualities that humans have, and Yahweh fits into that slot very well: he is masculine, jealous, vengeful, wrathful, demands praise, worship, and obedience or else punishment will be meted out, conditional love for those who praise and worship him, eternal torment for those who don't...the list could go on, and on. Something to think about?

All the best to you,
Rose

Hi Rose,

Your post helps me tremendously. Thank you very much for helping me to understand where you "are".

With your re-definition of Jesus, will you be writing a book about Him, so that others can believe the same thing? Or is that the original problem? Men writing books about who they think God is?

I will ruminate on this for awhile. Already, late for work.

Mercy and grace to you from the God that I serve,
Rick

Gil

09-02-2011, 11:47 AM

Howdy Rick,

Quote: Rick > [Paul's epistles (God's Word) are meant for all the holy brethren.]

Gil > But what do they tell you.?

Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Gil > The likeness of his death , was in the likeness of his flesh body after he had taken the sins of fallen man unto himself.
What does that mean for us as a Christian?
To plant ones self is a voluntary act. The seeds of the flesh man came forth
Out of the garden and through the loins of flesh man.

The Children of the first Adam, prior to, Jesus in the flesh and the resurrected Jesus Christ, did not have that choice of a re-planting. ( re- birth).

We plant ourselves into the BOC as a seed, that is in the form of Jesus while he was within the flesh.
We are to take his body of flesh as our own body of flesh.
It is our own body of flesh ,which is crucified in him.
There is nothing we can do on our own to achieve any form of righteousness on our own.

Same with the resurrected body of Jesus Christ.
We take on the body of Jesus Christ as our own body.
We accept his body as our own body.
For only in him can we to be raised.

In Paul's Christology the body of the first Adam and the body of the Last Adam is clearly made known.
Paul was the Angel, (messenger), that brought us the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Not given to Paul by some other Angel, but by the Spirit of Jesus Christ himself.

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Gil > By the Holy Spirit. A Ghost is an apparition of something already dead.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Gil > The spirit of his Son is the same spirit who taught Paul.
Whether Jews , Gentiles or of those outside of the Jews, man is either an individual within the BODY of Flesh as a whole or he is an individual within the BODY of Christ as a whole.

The BOC was made manifest complete in all its fullness Post AD70.
It was not yet complete in Paul's time at his own death.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Gil > Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Gil > In a better perspective:
" I create darkness and create evil: I form the light and I make peace".

The old man, first Adam and the new man, last Adam, Jesus Christ.

" for to make in himself of twain one new man,",

Of twain is to make of two, one new man.
Jesus made in himself through his crucified body of flesh and
His Resurrected body of Spirit one new man.

Through him, we also, in him, become one new man (daughter or son).

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God (no other distinctions) by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gil > By Faith in Christ is to have Faith in both the Father and the Son.
That the Father had made complete in his Son a means of reconciliation.
That man in the flesh may once again re-establish the presence of God the true Father within him.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gil > It is within the concept given to Paul by the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
That even though we be individuals, we are as a whole, the Body of Christ
Jesus now upon this earth. Not the Church but the BOC.

It is after our own body of flesh in which we now find ourselves go's back to the dust of which it was formed ,that we like Jesus Christ will take on a new body as has the Son.
Not to be of this earth/planet , but to be in a new environment
That bodies of flesh cannot enter.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Gil > In the Image of the Father who created the new man through his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gil > They had been given dominion over all things and of the earth itself.
The Spirit of Satan, the face of man had all the Earth to offer Jesus at his temptation.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God created man (male and female) in his Image.
A living spiritual body of some substance, essence ,but not yet flesh.
A mind, capable of carrying on a relationship with God the Spirit of Life.
Gods presence was within the first Adam prior to his Fall.
A living soul was Adam. In his Image was he created.

Next would come the likeness of them. Adam fell from the presence of God before that likeness ( God's) could be made manifest.
In the stead, he was given a flesh body ( both male and female).
The presence of God had left him and man was left with his own individual Spirit.
The face of Man.
Man would have the likeness of the earth, of his predecessors , the beasts of the earth of which he was formed.

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Gil > Man in the flesh given dominion over the Earth.

Adam in the flesh was the first creation and the last Adam begotten of the Father was to be the new creation.
Unlike the first Adam, he, Jesus in the flesh ,did not fall to temptation.

The new Man Adam would be in both ,the Image and Likeness of his Father.
His name was Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

James 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Gil > To utterly Perish is not to be confined in a fiery hell of torment.

The natural man in the flesh that was of the first Adam, his generations, the promised seed to come unto the Jews as their Messiah, the resurrected Jesus Christ, the last Adam, who would be the Christ, our flesh bodies as living seeds in which the inner man, spiritual (pneuma, psuche, psyche ) are being transformed into the new man and the generations that would come through the spiritual seed within the Holy Spirit is the summary of the Bible, as Paul would put it.

Gil :pop2:

Rose

09-02-2011, 12:54 PM

Hi Rose,

Your post helps me tremendously. Thank you very much for helping me to understand where you "are".

With your re-definition of Jesus, will you be writing a book about Him, so that others can believe the same thing? Or is that the original problem? Men writing books about who they think God is?

I will ruminate on this for awhile. Already, late for work.

Mercy and grace to you from the God that I serve,
Rick

Hi Rick,

I am pleased to see how open-minded you are and willing to give new ideas serious thought.

I don't think I will be writing a book anytime soon, though I do write articles on my ideas as I go along. Right now Richard and I are putting a lot of effort into trying to understand the mystery of the Bible Wheel...pondering the fact of its obvious design with the contrasting fact of the Bibles human origin.

The Bible Wheel's design is what kept me hanging onto my Christian faith as long as I did, till I finally could not keep myself locked in that box any longer. My butterfly needed freedom from its cocoon, to seek answers to questions that most Christians ignored or pushed under the rug. I am the happiest I have ever been in my life...no, I do not have all the answers, but the road ahead is open and my zest for life and love of my fellow-man is increasing day by day. :hippie:

All the best to you my friend,

Rose

CWH

09-03-2011, 03:51 AM

[QUOTE=Rose;34393]Hi Rick,

Yes, Richard and I have both quit "Christianity", but we also have re-defined who we think Jesus was. No, he was never a "member" of the Christian faith, but neither do I believe he was the son of the god portrayed in the Bible. Jesus was a man born and raised a Jew, whose consciousness was enlightened to a point of being able to see beyond the limited perceptions of his people and their warrior god, Yahweh. Much like Buddha, or Confucius before him, Jesus tried to change ideas by working within the culture he was born in and then spreading those concepts to the world.

So you think the truth that quiting Christianity has set you free right? As long as you do not believe and follow Jesus, you can never be set free. As long as you did not put God first and live by every word that comes out from the mouth of God, you can never be free. As long as you are in the sinful flesh, you can never be free. See what is truth and what is free:

John 8:31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. 19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I think the Bibles wisdom comes from showing us what people have found out about themselves...presented in the manner of an external god giving decrees. One can easily map the progress of human consciousness from the Old Testament to the New Testament by looking at the change in the ways sinful people were punished.
No, but rather one can track human progress from his sinful nature to his righteous nature. Tracking from how man struggles with evil and unrighteousness from OT to reach his goal in the kingdom of heaven with the help from God in NT.

All through the Old Testament killing people on a massive scale is presented as God's remedy for evil, then suddenly with the advent of the New Testament punishment for evil people who don't repent is pushed off to the next life (torture in Hell for eternity)...quite a change wouldn't you say?
I see it the other way, killing people on a massive scale is presented as God's determination for good as it prevents evil men from going further into sin and to prevent evil people from influencing good righteous people...so that the world that we live in today will not be overwhelmed by sinfulness. Torture in Hell for eternity are for incorriglble sinners in which chances have been given for repentence but were rejected.

One big question I think that each of us needs to ask ourselves is, "Why should I start with the premise that the Bible is the word of God, and not a collection of man's perceptions of who they thought god was?" I think many people take it as a given that the Bible is the word of God, without ever questioning its validity.
Why would I start with the premise that the Bible is the word of Man? How do you prove the validity of the Bible as the word of God and not of man? The miracles in the Bible is a proof that the Bible is from God and not the imaginations of men; do you know that we modern humans can now duplicate some of the miracles that were mentioned in the Bible such as travelling in a cloud, destruction of cities in an instance, spitting out "fire and coals", curing some diseases almost instantly like fever and hypoglycaemia etc.? The wisdom of God is a proof that the Bible is from God and not from Man. If one can answer all these questions convincingly in Job 38 and 39, then the Bible is the works of men:

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?

12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.

16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.

19 “What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!

22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no one lives,
an uninhabited desert,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?

31 “Can you bind the chains[b] of the Pleiades?
Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons[c]
or lead out the Bear[d] with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God’s[e] dominion over the earth?

34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
36 Who gives the ibis wisdom[f]
or gives the rooster understanding?[g]
37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?

39 “Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?
41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?

Job 39:1 “Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?
2 Do you count the months till they bear?
Do you know the time they give birth?
3 They crouch down and bring forth their young;
their labor pains are ended.
4 Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds;
they leave and do not return.

5 “Who let the wild donkey go free?
Who untied its ropes?
6 I gave it the wasteland as its home,
the salt flats as its habitat.
7 It laughs at the commotion in the town;
it does not hear a driver’s shout.
8 It ranges the hills for its pasture
and searches for any green thing.

9 “Will the wild ox consent to serve you?
Will it stay by your manger at night?
10 Can you hold it to the furrow with a harness?
Will it till the valleys behind you?
11 Will you rely on it for its great strength?
Will you leave your heavy work to it?
12 Can you trust it to haul in your grain
and bring it to your threshing floor?

13 “The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,
though they cannot compare
with the wings and feathers of the stork.
14 She lays her eggs on the ground
and lets them warm in the sand,
15 unmindful that a foot may crush them,
that some wild animal may trample them.
16 She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;
she cares not that her labor was in vain,
17 for God did not endow her with wisdom
or give her a share of good sense.
18 Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,
she laughs at horse and rider.

19 “Do you give the horse its strength
or clothe its neck with a flowing mane?
20 Do you make it leap like a locust,
striking terror with its proud snorting?
21 It paws fiercely, rejoicing in its strength,
and charges into the fray.
22 It laughs at fear, afraid of nothing;
it does not shy away from the sword.
23 The quiver rattles against its side,
along with the flashing spear and lance.
24 In frenzied excitement it eats up the ground;
it cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.
25 At the blast of the trumpet it snorts, ‘Aha!’
It catches the scent of battle from afar,
the shout of commanders and the battle cry.

26 “Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom
and spread its wings toward the south?
27 Does the eagle soar at your command
and build its nest on high?
28 It dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
a rocky crag is its stronghold.
29 From there it looks for food;
its eyes detect it from afar.
30 Its young ones feast on blood,
and where the slain are, there it is.”

It's a pretty obvious clue that a god is man-made when all his attributes are qualities that humans have, and Yahweh fits into that slot very well: he is masculine, jealous, vengeful, wrathful, demands praise, worship, and obedience or else punishment will be meted out, conditional love for those who praise and worship him, eternal torment for those who don't...the list could go on, and on. Something to think about?
It doesn't matter if God seems to be masculine, jealous, vengeful, wrathful etc. if the end result is to breed righteous men for the kingdom of heaven. This is analogous to United States fighting terrorism by killing them no matter where they are as long as the end result is that terrorism will be annihilated or subdued so that the world will be a much better place? Is this something good or something bad, moral or immoral?

Have you ever thiought if one day we could travel to the stars and visit inhabitable planets, will those inhabitants in a backward society sees us as gods? And gods with human attributes of masculine, jealous, vengeful, wrathful etc. Didn't the bible says "we are gods"?....made in the image of God.

May God Blessed us with Wisdom and Truth, Amen. :pray:

heb13-13

09-03-2011, 09:48 AM

Howdy Rick,

Quote: Rick > [Paul's epistles (God's Word) are meant for all the holy brethren.]

Gil > But what do they tell you.?

Gil :pop2:

Howdy Gil,

Is that a rhetorical question? Because, you seem to continue on to answer it.

What do Paul's epistles tell me? I don't have time to write volumes of books, because that is what it would take.

Kindly,
Rick

heb13-13

09-03-2011, 10:03 AM

Hi Rick,

I am pleased to see how open-minded you are and willing to give new ideas serious thought.

Hi Rose,

Actually, I just try not to be "small-minded". I am open-minded in the sense that I respect other people's viewpoints and am willing to listen.

Hi Rick,

My butterfly needed freedom from its cocoon, to seek answers to questions that most Christians ignored or pushed under the rug. I am the happiest I have ever been in my life...no, I do not have all the answers, but the road ahead is open and my zest for life and love of my fellow-man is increasing day by day. :hippie:

I think you know that happiness is not the litmus test of truth, but I am glad you are happy.

So, with your recent statement about Jesus and the Bible, I would venture to guess that the scriptures that speak about God's indwelling Spirit in His children are just rhetoric made up by man and not really anything real or concrete. Would I be correct in assuming that?

Verses such as:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
1Jn 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

As you know, there are more verses on this topic of the indwelling Spirit of God.

As far as freedom is concerned, if I already have freedom through Christ, how can I find more freedom apart from Christ? True freedom is to be set free from the law of sin and death. What other freedom is there? Maybe you could expound on what other freedom you have found. There are other freedoms in Christ, to be sure.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

In Christ,
Rick

Rose

09-04-2011, 08:39 AM

Hi Rose,

Actually, I just try not to be "small-minded". I am open-minded in the sense that I respect other people's viewpoints and am willing to listen.

I think you know that happiness is not the litmus test of truth, but I am glad you are happy.

Hi Rick,

Open-mindedness is a quality that is rare amongst many people, especially religious folk.

My happiness comes from the freedom to seek the truth and share with others what I have found. Understanding must be built on a foundation of truth before knowledge can come.

So, with your recent statement about Jesus and the Bible, I would venture to guess that the scriptures that speak about God's indwelling Spirit in His children are just rhetoric made up by man and not really anything real or concrete. Would I be correct in assuming that?

Verses such as:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
1Jn 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

As you know, there are more verses on this topic of the indwelling Spirit of God.

As far as freedom is concerned, if I already have freedom through Christ, how can I find more freedom apart from Christ? True freedom is to be set free from the law of sin and death. What other freedom is there? Maybe you could expound on what other freedom you have found. There are other freedoms in Christ, to be sure.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

In Christ,
Rick

When I was a Christian, I also spoke of freedom in Christ, but it was nothing like what I feel now. There was always a cloud of uncertainty around all those whose faith was something other than Christianity, so I turned to universalism, but that was only a band-aid over a wound that would never heal. Now I know that all of humanity is one, and whatever life-force that causes us to be human is the same for everyone, and when we leave this earthly shell behind we will all return to the same source...whatever that may be.

I wouldn't call mans sense of the Holy Spirit rhetoric, because I actually feel the experiences written down in the Bible were real perceptions. I think people did experience an inner connection with an external "Divine Force", I just think that their mystical experiences were mapped onto an image that was created by the collective unconscious, whose archetypes are clothed with the garments of the cultures people live in.

The Bible is a treasure house of wisdom, showing its readers how people over the centuries experienced the "Divine", but that doesn't mean we should take the images they portrayed as literal. Jesus was a man who was enlightened beyond most people of his day, but he still believed in many of the myths of his culture...like, the cause of mental illness was from demonic possession. Today we know that to be false, people are given medications for their mental illnesses, but Jesus exorcised the demons and cast them into a herd of pigs...that is just one example of which there are many more.

All the best to you my friend, I'm truly enjoying our conversation. :thumb:

Rose

Richard Amiel McGough

09-04-2011, 09:34 AM

As far as freedom is concerned, if I already have freedom through Christ, how can I find more freedom apart from Christ? True freedom is to be set free from the law of sin and death. What other freedom is there? Maybe you could expound on what other freedom you have found. There are other freedoms in Christ, to be sure.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Hey there Rick,

What exactly do you mean when you say you are freed from sin and death? Do those words have real meaning to you? Your comment intrigues me because it exemplifies one of my primary problems with the rhetoric of Christianity which uses very high-sounding words that have no actual content or meaning relative to the world in which we live. You say you are "free from the law of sin and death" when in fact you still sin and are still subject to death. So what do those words actually mean? The typical Christian answer is that the reality of those words will be realized after we die. That's fine, but then you should modify your claim, should you not? Shouldn't you say that you will be freed in the future though you are still subject to sin and death right now? Or have the words "free," "sin," and "death" lost their meanings?

All the best,

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough

09-04-2011, 09:42 AM

Hi Rick,

It is very good to be discussing these issues with you. I have a sense that it will go well since you read my book and know where I was coming from before I hit the "fork in the road." For many years I held the Bible in the highest esteem - so high in fact that I was blind to much of what it actually said. Case in point:
Deuteronomy 2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:
This kind of "total destruction" against the indigenous people was frequently commanded by God:
Deuteronomy 3:4 And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many. 6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.
All the men, women, and children! And in again in 1 Samuel:
1 Samuel 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
Now if you want to really understand where I am coming from and why this disturbs me so deeply, you need only imagine you were an Israeli soldier. The Lord God Almighty has commanded you to slay everyone. So you go forth and find a village. You rip open a tent and see a 17 year old mother of two - one toddler and one at her breast - and she begs for her life, but you have no mercy, no kindness, no humanity as you swing your sword and slice her toddler in half. Her face is now covered in the blood and guts of her firstborn, and she screams and begs for mercy again, but you have no mercy. You are obeying your God and have become a baby-killer. She begs again, she clings to your feet and you kicker her away like a dog and bring down your sword, impaling her baby and her heart in one fell swoop. Then you move on to the next tent, and the next, and the next until your soul is brutalized to the point of death.

This is what I meant when I said that the Bible attributes moral abominations unto God. How do you deal with these facts?

All the best,

Richard
Hi Richard,

I clearly understand your question and the dilemma it poses for you. I don't think my answer will be a "traditional one", although it may be long-winded. I generally know what I want to say, but need time to develop it specifically and correctly. You are a very patient person so I know you won't mind waiting a spell. I see that I missed one of Rose's answers and don't want her to feel slighted so I will respond to her now.

Grace and peace to you,
Rick

P.S. Yes, it will go well. I have a genuine love and respect for you and Rose.
Hi Rick,

Are you still working on your response to my dilemma? A long winded response would be fine, but not necessary. It seems to me that truth can usually be expressed with brevity and clarity whereas many words are required to hide it.

All the best,

Richard

heb13-13

09-04-2011, 10:32 AM

Hi Rick,

Are you still working on your response to my dilemma? A long winded response would be fine, but not necessary. It seems to me that truth can usually be expressed with brevity and clarity whereas many words are required to hide it.

All the best,

Richard

Greetings to you, Richard,

Oh yes, I think about it off and on throughout the day(s). I totally agree with your statement, that "It seems to me that truth can usually be expressed with brevity and clarity whereas many words are required to hide it."

May I ask you a question that will help me in my response?

Do you believe in the existence of Satan and the rulers (powers) of darkness in this world?

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

In short, does God have an arch-enemy, "sworn" to destroy Him and His offspring?

Your condescension, as always is much appreciated. :anim_32:
Rick

Richard Amiel McGough

09-04-2011, 11:21 AM

Greetings to you, Richard,

Oh yes, I think about it off and on throughout the day(s). I totally agree with your statement, that "It seems to me that truth can usually be expressed with brevity and clarity whereas many words are required to hide it."

May I ask you a question that will help me in my response?

Do you believe in the existence of Satan and the rulers (powers) of darkness in this world?

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

In short, does God have an arch-enemy, "sworn" to destroy Him and His offspring?

Your condescension, as always is much appreciated. :anim_32:
Rick
Hey there my friend,

It is good to get as much background orientation before trying to answer hard questions like my "dilemma" since my beliefs will determine the best approach.

Now in answer to your question concerning the existence of Satan and the malevolent principalities and powers in "heavenly places" - I have no way to know if such beings exist, but the evidence weighs strongly against such an idea because they seem to be just like all the other primitive superstitions that saturated the human cultures at the time the Bible was written. They are of the same class as the "demons" and "curses" that were thought to cause diseases and other ailments. In other words, they seem to be part of the pre-scientific "demon haunted world" that few, if any, modern educated folks hold to be true.

Now if the existence of Satan and evil are essential to your understanding of how to resolve my dilemma, then maybe it best for you to present it since that is your authentic belief.

Or maybe it would be best for you to tailor your answer to suit my present worldview.

Or maybe there are more preliminary questions you would like me to answer first. I'm good with that.

Great chatting!

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough

09-04-2011, 12:40 PM

Why would I start with the premise that the Bible is the word of Man? How do you prove the validity of the Bible as the word of God and not of man? The miracles in the Bible is a proof that the Bible is from God and not the imaginations of men; do you know that we modern humans can now duplicate some of the miracles that were mentioned in the Bible such as travelling in a cloud, destruction of cities in an instance, spitting out "fire and coals", curing some diseases almost instantly like fever and hypoglycaemia etc.?

Hey there CWH,

Your logic is fallacious because it is circular. The Koran has miracles in it but you don't think that proves that Koran is from God. The miracles in the Bible would only prove that it was from God if we began by assuming that the miracles really happened. But why should we assume that? Do you have evidence that any of the miracles happened? No.

I really don't understand how you could make such an obvious error. Don't you have to use logic in your daily activities? How to you do anything at all if you don't follow the rules of logic? What do you do for a living?

The wisdom of God is a proof that the Bible is from God and not from Man. If one can answer all these questions convincingly in Job 38 and 39, then the Bible is the works of men:

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?

12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal [flat?];
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.

Are you joking? The sea has no doors! The earth has no cornerstone! The waves of the sea are not "proud" and no one gives them any orders to "halt!" That language is pure poetry written by someone who was utterly ignorant of things most schoolchildren understand today, like the fact that the earth has no "edges" but rather is a spherical planet orbiting the sun. If this is your standard to prove that the Bible is the work of men, we all must conclude that that has been proved with complete certainty.

It doesn't matter if God seems to be masculine, jealous, vengeful, wrathful etc. if the end result is to breed righteous men for the kingdom of heaven.
How exactly does God commanding his people to become brutal baby-killing monsters cohere with the desire to "breed righteous men for the kingdom of heaven?"

You are making Christianity look like rank insanity.

Have you ever thiought if one day we could travel to the stars and visit inhabitable planets, will those inhabitants in a backward society sees us as gods? And gods with human attributes of masculine, jealous, vengeful, wrathful etc. Didn't the bible says "we are gods"?....made in the image of God.

Your question says it all. You think it is "Godly" to be "masculine, jealous, vengeful, wrathful, etc." Is this what Christianity does to people? Does it pervert the natural human goodness and make it evil? Once again, we see this quote by Steven Weinberg exemplified:
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. ~ Steven Weinberg
The one thing that is becoming more and more clear to me is that religion is dominated by irrational thinking and that it tends to corrupt both the minds and the morals of those who believe it.