THE REDEEMER IN JOB

[gilgal]

THE REDEEMER IN JOB (http://www.khouse.org/enews/2011-08-09/#2) - (Print)

"Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book! That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!" -Job 19:23-24

Why do the righteous suffer? The Book of Job wrestles with this question, and yet, Job is never given the precise answer. He's not told. Instead, God makes it seriously clear that He knows what is going on even if Job does not. The ultimate lesson for Job is not really why the righteous suffer. The message is that God is God.

The marvelous treasure we have in Job, however, is not just the cry of the human heart and God's response; the treasure is that the God of Job is the very same God we find out throughout the rest of the Bible. Major Christian doctrines can be found in Job even though the evidence points to its being the oldest book of the Bible, written during the time when Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob walked the earth.

The Dating of Job:
The poetry and writing skill found in the Book of Job is some of the very greatest in all ancient literature. What's more, Job not only predates the Exile, but the story clearly predates the Exodus as well. The descriptions of the life and times of Job are consistent with the time of the Patriarchs, generations before Moses had his meeting at the Burning Bush. For instance:

- God is only referred to as Yahweh in the prologue and the epilogue, but not in the main body (except for one exception in verse 12:9). Talmudic Tradition gives Moses the authorship of Job, and it may be he produced much of the final form of the book. However, the body of the book, and the very story of Job, fit the world before the Exodus. The book itself does not describe its author, but Job or Elihu are likely.

Instead of calling God by the name given to Moses in the body of the story, Job's God is constantly referred to as the "Almighty." The term "Almighty" is used 31 times in Job, more than in the rest of the Bible put together. Genesis and Revelation use "the Almighty" with the next greatest frequency, with six and eight uses each, respectively.

When the LORD is later speaking to Moses in Exodus, he says, "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty ["El Shaddai"], but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them," (Exodus 6:3).

- In Job, there is no mention of the tabernacle, the Levitical priesthood and sacrificial system. Instead, Job acts as the family's priest, sacrificing to God on behalf of his children (Job 1:5).

- After his ordeal, Job lived another 140 years, which matches the longevity of men about the time of the patriarchs (Job 42:16; Gen 11).

-The existence of moving bands of Sabaeans and Chaldeans (1:15, 17) is consistent with the early second millennium B.C.

- A qesitah is mentioned in Job 42:11. A qesitah was a piece of money mentioned elsewhere as late as Joshua 24:32, but as early as Genesis 33:19.

- Eliphaz The Temanite may have been the very Eliphaz, son of Esau, mentioned in Genesis 36:10-11. Eliphaz's son was named Teman, and the name Teman became synonymous with Edom.

The Ideas In Job:
While the Book of Job is very old, we find planted in it the basic seeds of important Hebrew and New Testament doctrines:

-God is not portrayed as a local god, or a god with limited powers. The God of Job is the Almighty. He is the God that hangs the earth upon nothing (26:7). He is the God in the height of heaven (22:12), and He walks its circuit (22:13). He is in charge of the stars (Job 38:31-33). He is the God over the weather (38:22-30) and over the sea (38:8-11) and over the foundations of the earth (38:4-6):

"Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?" (Job 38:3-5).

God declares that He has power over the largest and fiercest of creatures, behemoth (40:15-24) and leviathan (41:1-34).

-Job apparently had knowledge of the Creation, for he says he was formed out of clay (33:6) and the breath of the Almighty gave him life (33:4).

-He recognizes that dead men live no more, and yet, Job has hope for a future resurrection of the body. He first hints at it in chapter 14:

"O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come," (14:13-14).

Later, he makes it much more clear:

"And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God," (19:26).

-Job even hints that there will be a Redeemer!

"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth," (19:25).

We too can declare this, with even better (perhaps) understanding, for our Redeemer was dead but is now alive, and we wait expectantly for his return to earth (Zec 14:3,4).

Job also mentions a ransom that, along with repentance, keeps men from the pit (33:24-28):

"Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man, To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living," (33:29-30).

The concepts were there, before the Exodus. By the time we get to King David, his Psalm 22 describes Jesus' hanging on the cross from a first person perspective, and well over 700 years in advance, Isaiah 53 proclaims the Messiah's sacrifice for sins.

Perhaps the greatest, most important line in Job is found in chapter 40. This line underscores one of the most vital concepts in the whole Bible. It is the reason that Jesus had to come. It is the reason there had to be a Redeemer, a Sacrifice, a Ransom:

The LORD continually questions Job regarding his knowledge and his power...

"...Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty. Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him," (40:10-11).

And God says that if Job can do these things, "Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee," (Job 40:14).
Wow.

Obviously, Job cannot. He hasn't entered into the springs of the sea (38:16). He doesn't know where light dwells (38:19). And he can't save himself. Neither can we.

Of all the concepts throughout all religions across the world, this one makes the Bible unique. The Bible is the only book that teaches that man cannot save himself. While the world's religions are filled with people trying to earn their salvation, the Bible is the one that teaches that mankind needs a Savior - from the time God covers Adam and Eve with skins in Genesis 3:21 to the very end, when the people from all languages and nations are redeemed and washed in the blood of the Lamb (Rev 5:9, 7:14).

Did Job suffer? Yes, he did. But, he looked forward to the day that he would see God his Redeemer in the flesh. And in that day, Job will get to participate when God Himself wipes away all the tears from our eyes forever (Rev 7:17).

Related Links:
• An Introduction to the Book of Job - Bible.org
• The Book Of Job - Jewish Encyclopedia
• Job's Family - Koinonia House

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Interesting topic Gilgal.

I find the similarity between Eliphaz the Temanite in Job and Eliphaz the father of Teman in Genesis 36:10-11 particularly curious.

[heb13-13]

I wrote this article as some people on a certain online (christian) forum were judging the people in Joplin, Missouri unfairly regarding the 2011 EF5 Multiple Vortex Tornado that destroyed much of Joplin. It was the 7th deadliest tornado in US History.

I find it interesting that Job's Comforters got one thing right.

What they got right: God brought this horrible affliction upon Job.
What they got wrong: WHY God brought this upon Job.

God answered Job’s complaint, summing up the whole matter at the end of his book:

Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding." (Job 38:1)

Even back then, they did not blame any of the calamities on the "natural order of nature". They knew all good and bad came from the hand of God (By virtue of allowing it).

The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. (Psa 37:23)

Sabeans killed his servant, fire from heaven (lightning?) burned up his sheep, the Chaldeans stole the camels, and slew more servants. Job's "sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:

And, behold, there came a great wind (tornado) from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead;"

Job admits it was all from God.

"Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." (Job 2:9-10)

The other things that the 3 comforters did right was to make an appointment with Job to see him and mourn with him for 7 days. They should have stopped right there but they could not. They definitely regarded Job's troubles as EVIL that came upon him for his transgressions.

"Now when Job's three friends heard of all this evil that was come upon him, they came every one from his own place; Eliphaz the Temanite, and Bildad the Shuhite, and Zophar the Naamathite: for they had made an appointment together to come to mourn with him and to comfort him." (Job 2:11)

"And when they lifted up their eyes afar off, and knew him not, they lifted up their voice, and wept; and they rent every one his mantle, and sprinkled dust upon their heads toward heaven. So they sat down with him upon the ground seven days and seven nights, and none spake a word unto him: for they saw that his grief was very great." (Job 2:12-13)

Yep, they should have stopped right here!

"Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God."(2 Co 1:4)

Chapter 3 - Grief and sorrow and bitterness were welling up in Job's heart and finally it all came out.

"After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day. And Job spake, and said, Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived." (Job 3:1-3)

"My soul is weary of my life; I will leave my complaint upon myself; I will speak in the bitterness of my soul." (Job 10:1)

Job is actually very simple. Scripture plainly and repeatedly states that Job was righteous, and that even in the midst of his great suffering, he "sinned not, nor charged God foolishly" (Job 1:22). (He left his complaint upon himself).

Why then did God allow Job to suffer the loss of everything except his own life? The answer is evident when viewed in context with all of God's Word. Job was allowed to enter into the sufferings of Christ which is viewed as an honor and a royal and divine service of immeasurable magnitude to the King of Kings for the edification of the His Body.

The Apostles rejoiced when "they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name" (Acts 5:41).

Peter writes: "rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy." (1 Pet 4:12).

Paul says, "I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church" (Col 1:24).

Job was just as precious to God as the thousands of martyrs that lost their families, possessions and honor and even their own lives through the centuries in joyful service to the Lord Jesus who, lost everything including His own life, for them. Job was a cherished and beloved servant of God who had great faith and could say "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him" (Job 13:15).

God also used Job’s suffering to bring out the false reasoning and counsel about His Righteousness and what it means for man to be righteous in light of God's righteousness. Job’s "counselors" all blamed Job!

Eliphaz, the first to respond, explained it this way:

"Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off?" (Job 4:7)

Implying that his servants, sons and daughters were destroyed for their transgressions.

Did Eliphaz really have to remind Job that he fell short of God's righteousness? Eliphaz says, "Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?" (Job 4:17)

Again, Eliphaz attributes all to God, but obviously he does not know why God did it. But, that doesn't stop him from "darkening counsel".

"By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed." (Job 4:9)

Job is just needing pity and comfort from his "friends". His "friends" don't understand God, so they speak stupidly.

Eliphaz pretty much accuses Job of lack of faith for his troubles.

"I would seek unto God, and unto God would I commit my cause: Which doeth great things and unsearchable; marvellous things without number:" (Job 5:9)

Message: You are not seeking God. You need to seek God.

Job says:
"To him that is afflicted pity should be shewed from his friend; but he forsaketh the fear of the Almighty." (Job 6:14)

Job was actually seeking God at the time that all this happened to him, his conscience was clear, yet suffering was still brought upon him.

Chapter 8: Bildad speaks. He attributes the calamity to God, but his reasoning is also more blame for Job's children's transgressions.

"Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice? If thy children have sinned against him, and he have cast them away for their transgression;" (Job 8:3-4)

Job speaks:
"If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him." (sarcasm)(Job 9:13)
"For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause." (Job 9:17)

Then Zophar speaks:
"...Know therefore that God exacteth of thee less than thine iniquity deserveth." (Job 11:6)

Again, blame for his "sin".

Job speaks and calls his "counselors" forgers of lies.

"Lo, mine eye hath seen all this, mine ear hath heard and understood it. What ye know, the same do I know also: I am not inferior unto you. Surely I would speak to the Almighty, and I desire to reason with God. But ye are forgers of lies, ye are all physicians of no value. O that ye would altogether hold your peace! and it should be your wisdom." (Job 13:1-5)

Later, Job receives revelation from God which is more than all the flapping lips speaking to him could ever give him.

"Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:1-6)

God speaks to Elipahaz about himself and his two friends.

"And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath." (Job 42:7)

It is a terrible and destructive thing to misrepresent the character of God.

So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job. (Job 42:9)

"And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before." (Job 42:10)

Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him OVER ALL THE EVIL THAT THE LORD HAD BROUGHT UPON HIM: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold. (Job 42:11)

Job knew of no sin that he committed yet at the same time he could not justify himself and this goes perfectly with 1 John 1:8 regarding the sin of self-justification.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:8)

I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand. (Job 9:2-3)

How much less shall I answer him, and choose out my words to reason with him? Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge. (Job 9:14-15)

"If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse" (Job 9:20).

And finally the Lord God, says.

"Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?" (Job 40:7-8).

"May it never be. Let God be true and every man a liar" (Rom 3:4).

If our claim to righteousness by faith crosses the bounds of what God teaches us as in the doctrine of "Sinless Perfection", it will sound like we are justifying ourselves, which, if we do, we make God a liar.

If you are going to Joplin, Mo., have pity on these people, comfort and encourage them, help them and minister God's love to them. And don't be surprised if you meet some mighty men and women of faith like Job. You probably will. Talk little, listen much.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Even back then, they did not blame any of the calamities on the "natural order of nature". They knew all good and bad came from the hand of God (By virtue of allowing it).

What do you mean "even back then?" Back then, people were ignorant as dirt about the "natural forces" that govern the universe. Everything was caused by God or other supernatural beings. Angels pushed the clouds, thunder was God's voice, etc. and so on.



Job is actually very simple. Scripture plainly and repeatedly states that Job was righteous, and that even in the midst of his great suffering, he "sinned not, nor charged God foolishly" (Job 1:22). (He left his complaint upon himself).

Why then did God allow Job to suffer the loss of everything except his own life? The answer is evident when viewed in context with all of God's Word. Job was allowed to enter into the sufferings of Christ which is viewed as an honor and a royal and divine service of immeasurable magnitude to the King of Kings for the edification of the His Body.

Hey! That's cheating! You just quoted my discussion on Job from Spoke 18 of the Bible Wheel book! Here it is (from the online article (http://biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Tzaddi_Theodicy.asp)):

The outline of Job is extremely simple. Scripture plainly and repeatedly states that Job was righteous, and that even in the midst of his great suffering, he "sinned not, nor charged God foolishly" (Job 1:22). Why then did God allow this righteous man to suffer the loss of everything save his own life? The answer is plain when viewed in context of the whole Bible. Job was allowed to enter into the sufferings of Christ which is an honor and a Divine service of immeasurable magnitude. This is why the Apostles rejoiced when "they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name" (Acts 5:41), and why Peter could write: "rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy." (1 Pet 4:12). Paul summed it all up, saying "I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church" (Col 1:24). Job was no less a servant of God than any of the ten thousand martyrs who lost honor, family, and even their own lives in joyful service of Almighty God. He was simply one of God’s beloved servants who had such full-ness of faith as to declare with perfect honesty: "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him" (Job 13:15). Job was made righteous through faith, and God used His faithful servant to accomplish the great task of writing eternal Scripture. It is little wonder the Greek Orthodox Church canonized him as "Saint Job the Righteous," that is, "Saint Job the Tzaddik."
I suppose you expect me to agree with you now, eh? :p

Well, I do ... and I wonder if that's because I'm biased in favor of my own writings? Hummm ... :sCo_hmmthink:

I've been watching the members of the Camping Cult all week since their final date of October 21 passed last Friday. They still assert that their great God and Savior Harold Camping was absolutely correct in everything he did, and that it was the God of the Bible that misled him "for his mysterious purposes." They still assert that the Camping Calendar of Ultimate Bullshit is absolutely correct! So I know that the human mind is easily deceived, especially by itself! And so I thought to apply the same skeptical analysis to the Bible Wheel book as I have to the Bible. I mean, if the Bible has errors and all that, then surely the Bible Wheel book must have flaws. But I can't find any - at least nothing that contradicts any statements of fact. As far as I can tell, everything I wrote in the Bible Wheel book remains valid, except, of course, my personal opinions about God and Christianity and all that. But the facts remain, and so does the implication that their are patterns in the Bible that must be explained. So maybe someone on this forum will take this opportunity to kick me while I'm down and help free me from my personal delusion that the Bible Wheel reveals a supernatural design in Scripture. Countless cruel Christians tried to help free me from this delusion over the years, but they never succeeded in finding any fundamental flaw or systematic error in anything I wrote, so I was, and remain, stuck with the Bible Wheel even though I no longer believe in the Bible. How weird is that? Someone please help me!

Richard

[heb13-13]

What do you mean "even back then?" Back then, people were ignorant as dirt about the "natural forces" that govern the universe. Everything was caused by God or other supernatural beings. Angels pushed the clouds, thunder was God's voice, etc. and so on.

I don't know. I don't think we give them enough credit for what they "perceived".


Hey! That's cheating! You just quoted my discussion on Job from Spoke 18 of the Bible Wheel book! Here it is (from the online article (http://biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Tzaddi_Theodicy.asp)):

The outline of Job is extremely simple. Scripture plainly and repeatedly states that Job was righteous, and that even in the midst of his great suffering, he "sinned not, nor charged God foolishly" (Job 1:22). Why then did God allow this righteous man to suffer the loss of everything save his own life? The answer is plain when viewed in context of the whole Bible. Job was allowed to enter into the sufferings of Christ which is an honor and a Divine service of immeasurable magnitude. This is why the Apostles rejoiced when "they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name" (Acts 5:41), and why Peter could write: "rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy." (1 Pet 4:12). Paul summed it all up, saying "I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church" (Col 1:24). Job was no less a servant of God than any of the ten thousand martyrs who lost honor, family, and even their own lives in joyful service of Almighty God. He was simply one of God’s beloved servants who had such full-ness of faith as to declare with perfect honesty: "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him" (Job 13:15). Job was made righteous through faith, and God used His faithful servant to accomplish the great task of writing eternal Scripture. It is little wonder the Greek Orthodox Church canonized him as "Saint Job the Righteous," that is, "Saint Job the Tzaddik."



Thanks for that Richard. I actually searched and searched last night to find where I got that and came up empty handed. It should be properly attributed to you and my apologies. I was looking through books and never searched online. I should have. That was an excellent piece.

I suppose you expect me to agree with you now, eh? :p

Well, I do ... and I wonder if that's because I'm biased in favor of my own writings? Hummm ... :sCo_hmmthink:

I've been watching the members of the Camping Cult all week since their final date of October 21 passed last Friday. They still assert that their great God and Savior Harold Camping was absolutely correct in everything he did, and that it was the God of the Bible that misled him "for his mysterious purposes." They still assert that the Camping Calendar of Ultimate Bullshit is absolutely correct! So I know that the human mind is easily deceived, especially by itself! And so I thought to apply the same skeptical analysis to the Bible Wheel book as I have to the Bible. I mean, if the Bible has errors and all that, then surely the Bible Wheel book must have flaws. But I can't find any - at least nothing that contradicts any statements of fact. As far as I can tell, everything I wrote in the Bible Wheel book remains valid, except, of course, my personal opinions about God and Christianity and all that. But the facts remain, and so does the implication that their are patterns in the Bible that must be explained. So maybe someone on this forum will take this opportunity to kick me while I'm down and help free me from my personal delusion that the Bible Wheel reveals a supernatural design in Scripture.

I won't be one to kick you as I cannot find anything contradictory in your book.



Countless cruel Christians tried to help free me from this delusion over the years, but they never succeeded in finding any fundamental flaw or systematic error in anything I wrote, so I was, and remain, stuck with the Bible Wheel even though I no longer believe in the Bible. How weird is that? Someone please help me!

I suppose that is what has many (of us) wondering about how that happened, too.

Richard[/QUOTE]

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I don't know. I don't think we give them enough credit for what they "perceived".

Credit? Hummm ... they had all sorts of gross superstitions. I don't see much to "credit."



Thanks for that Richard. I actually searched and searched last night to find where I got that and came up empty handed. It should be properly attributed to you and my apologies. I was looking through books and never searched online. I should have. That was an excellent piece.
I won't be one to kick you as I cannot find anything contradictory in your book.

What did you do, type it in from the book? I was wondering why there were little variations from what I had actually written.

But no worries about attribution. I mean, you quoted my book to me! It's not like I wouldn't notice. I thought it was funny, like you were playing a joke on me. You weren't doing that? That's too bad, cuz it was funny.



I suppose that is what has many (of us) wondering about how that happened, too.

Yeah - well, I've laid out my case for disbelief just like I laid out my case for the Bible Wheel. And I really don't feel that anyone has given me much of a challenge on either count. So I'm stuck where I am right now. If you can come up with a good reason I should change my mind on one or the other, please let me know.

You are a very pleasant and intelligent man to chat with. I'm really glad you came to my forum.

All the best,

Richard

[heb13-13]

Credit? Hummm ... they had all sorts of gross superstitions. I don't see much to "credit."


What did you do, type it in from the book? I was wondering why there were little variations from what I had actually written.

Yes, must have, but I have it now in a Word doc, so this version I copy/pasted. I should have known that it is online and I could save some time.


But no worries about attribution. I mean, you quoted my book to me! It's not like I wouldn't notice. I thought it was funny, like you were playing a joke on me. You weren't doing that? That's too bad, cuz it was funny.

I guess that would be funny, but I would not think of playing this kind of joke on you.



Yeah - well, I've laid out my case for disbelief just like I laid out my case for the Bible Wheel. And I really don't feel that anyone has given me much of a challenge on either count. So I'm stuck where I am right now. If you can come up with a good reason I should change my mind on one or the other, please let me know.

I know. I have followed much of what people write you. I think about your conundrum frequently, and even though I don't have an answer that I think would resonate with you, that doesn't mean anything. I know and believe that the God of the universe is not stumped and can remove your "clouds". How that communication gets to you is anyone's guess.


You are a very pleasant and intelligent man to chat with. I'm really glad you came to my forum.

You are too, Richard, and I respect your plainness and your honesty. You lay yourself out quite publicly and I think many of us find that refreshing because it is so seldom seen. I know I do.

Have a great day,
Rick


All the best,

Richard

[Silence]

I have read the book of Job several times over the years, and heard all kinds of theories about what it was that caused Job to go through all that he endured, and/or why God allowed it. A few years ago I began to wonder if Job was overwhelmed when God allowed him to experience some of the burden from his children's sins. While they were alive, Job would regularly offer sacrifices for them "just in case" they had cursed the Lord in their hearts. Maybe this finally happened and realizing that was the thing that he had "greatly feared". He doesn't mention this as a possibility himself as far as I can remember (I haven't read the book in a while), and even if he was aware of this as a possibility, he would have not brought it up as a defense. And from the way his three friends talk, it seems that the idea of suffering for someone else's sins is a foreign concept to them. The just suffering for the sake of the unjust. Entering into the sufferings of Christ, like you said, Richard.