22 books

[Ryn]

Hello biblewheel forum, Richard M.,

I am reading that there are 22 books in the old testament, and 27 in the new, and that they are ordered in a specific way,

www.askelm.com/books/book002.htm.

Have you ever studied that.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hello biblewheel forum, Richard M.,

I am reading that there are 22 books in the old testament, and 27 in the new, and that they are ordered in a specific way,

www.askelm.com/books/book002.htm (http://www.askelm.com/books/book002.htm).

Have you ever studied that.
Hi Ryn,

Welcome to our Forum!

:welcome:

It is very interesting that you ask about Ernest L. Martin's book called "Restoring the Original Bible" because I am nearly finished with my review of it. I'll post a note when its done (could be as soon as tomorrow).

What do you think of his thesis? Have you formed an opinion yet?

Richard

[Ryn]

Read about it today on the internet. Thought it was interesting. How does it affect a bible wheel.

[Ryn]

Did not read the study. The order looks good.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Did not read the study. The order looks good.
Why does the "order look good"? I think the Jewish order is confused on many points. For example, the book of Chronicles is placed anachronistically (and ironically) after Ezra/Nehemiah. The order of the Christian Canon fixes this error.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I completed the review, or rather refutation, of Martin's book. You can read it here (http://www.biblewheel.com/RR/ELM_Restoring.asp) and comment in the Book Review section.

[Ryn]

I read it in that order and it went well.

How is it in error if that is the way God through the disciples put it together.

With your knowledge of a bible wheel, what would it look like with the 22 and 27.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I read it in that order and it went well.

How is it in error if that is the way God through the disciples put it together.

With your knowledge of a bible wheel, what would it look like with the 22 and 27.
Hi Ryn,

What makes you think that the disciples put it together in that order? Where do you think the Christian Bible came from if not the early Jews and Christians?

I discuss the Bible Wheel and "what would it look like with the 22 and 27" near the end of the review.

Richard

[Ryn]

Thanks for the review Richard M.

I made a bible wheel with the 22 and 27. It said the first five books of the bible have three levels.

Genesis-----Exodus------Leviticus----Numbers---Deuteronomy
Matthew----Mark---------Luke---------John--------Acts
1 Timothy--2 Timothy---Titus--------Philemon---Revelation

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Thanks for the review Richard M.

I made a bible wheel with the 22 and 27. It said the first five books of the bible have three levels.

Genesis-----Exodus------Leviticus----Numbers---Deuteronomy
Matthew----Mark---------Luke---------John--------Acts
1 Timothy--2 Timothy---Titus--------Philemon---Revelation
Hi Ryn,

How did you make the wheel? It looks like you are using Martin's sequence of books, which means that you count them as 49. How then do 49 books form a wheel? How many Spokes does it have?

Is any correlation with the Hebrew alphabet? If so, how does it work? In the real Bible Wheel, the alphabetic correlation is very simple and direct because the 66 books naturally divide into 3 x 22 = 3 cycles of 22 books each from Aleph to Tav.

Richard

[Ryn]

Why would it be Martin's sequence of books, hasn't it always been that way.

I made it by taking the 22 letters of the hebrew alphabet, like you did, and putting the 22 books and then the 27.

I said the first five books had three levels, it looks like by moving those five inner books, say the book of Revelation every five spaces, it would eventually land on each of the others.

The bible compares with itself a lot, comparing scripture with scripture 2 Timothy 3:16, though the Genesis, Matthew, and 1 Timothy lineup looks to compare in a bible wheel.

In the beginning of Genesis, The book of the generation <1078> (beginning, origin) of Iesous Christ Matthew, and 1 Timothy after it says his own son in the faith, 1:4 says of geneologies <1076> in a different context.

Isaiah and 2 Peter had lined up. Looking at them, they both had said of Sodom and Gomorrah.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Why would it be Martin's sequence of books, hasn't it always been that way.
Has it always been that way? No, not at all. On the contrary, its never been that way. Martin himself stated exactly that in the first sentence of his book when he wrote: "The world has never had a complete Bible of the Old and New Testaments in the original manuscript order of the biblical books."

If it had "always been that way" one would expect to find at least a few printed Bibles that follow Martin's pattern. But there are none. Zero. Zilch.


I made it by taking the 22 letters of the hebrew alphabet, like you did, and putting the 22 books and then the 27.
Yeah, I figured that out this morning and was going to post something about it when I noticed you were online so I decided to wait till you responded.


I said the first five books had three levels, it looks like by moving those five inner books, say the book of Revelation every five spaces, it would eventually land on each of the others.

The bible compares with itself a lot, comparing scripture with scripture 2 Timothy 3:16, though the Genesis, Matthew, and 1 Timothy lineup looks to compare in a bible wheel.

In the beginning of Genesis, The book of the generation <1078> (beginning, origin) of Iesous Christ Matthew, and 1 Timothy 1:4 says of geneologies <1076> in a different context.

Isaiah and 2 Peter had lined up. Looking at them, they both had said of Sodom and Gomorrah.
The Bible is a infinite tapestry from the Mind of God, and there will be many correlations between any two parts. Your pattern aligns the Torah (OT Pentateuch) with the "NT Pentateuch" (as Martin aptly called the 5 Books of NT History) and so there are many good correlations there. I have long noted that all four pentateuchal structures - Torah, Major Prophets, Wisdom books, and NT History - all have strong correlations with each other. Indeed, they are all paired symmetrically together at the top of the real Bible Wheel. Your pattern picks up on this genuine aspect of the Bible's design, but the overall structure of your wheel is grossly inferior to the real Bible Wheel for inumerable reasons, the first being the lack of overall symmetry. The real Bible Wheel has sevenfold symmetry that is itself a work of beauty and art (see my avatar), and it is an absolutely perfect circle - three wheels within a wheel (Ezek 1) - with no unbalanced "chunks" sticking out like the last five books in your scheme. Also, there is a deep correlation between the geometry of the real Bible Wheel and the content of the Books, and the meanings of the letters, as seen especially with the alignment of Revelation on Spoke 22, the final Spoke that corresponds to Tav. All of this is lost in the structure you suggest.

And besides all that, the real Bible Wheel "spontaneously blossoms" from a single act when we do nothing but roll up the 66 books on a spindle wheel of 22 spokes corresponding to the 22 Hebrew letters. Any pattern found on the Wheel has always been there implicitly in the structure of the Bible. Martin's pattern, on the other hand, required a huge labour to produce, with many very questionable steps not founded on any solid basis. The steps include:

The selection of one out of the many various Greek manuscript sequences that has never been used by the Church of Chirst in a complete Christian Bible,
The selection of the sequence of the Old Testament books that did not become standard until sometime in the late the Middle Ages.
A unique and completely unfounded enumeration of the 22 OT books counting Joshua with Judges (for which there is no historical record whatsoever).I had asked earlier why you think that God designed the order of the Tanakh but not the Christian Old Testament. I would still be very interested in an answer if you would be so kind.

Thanks! And by the way, I love it when people challenge my work, so don't worry about pushing too hard. Let me know what you really think, and we'll search out the truth together! :thumb:

Only let us be sure to always speak to each other with mutual respect and charity.

God bless you as you study His most excellent Word,

Richard

Edit to add: I would be very interested to know if you found any errors or weak points in my refutation of Martin's book.

[Ryn]

Sequence of books meaning, the number. You had said of 49. The order of them is something I'm looking at also.

Thanks for the reply.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Sequence of books meaning, the number. You had said of 49. The order of them is something I'm looking at also.

Thanks for the reply.
No, by "sequence" I mean "order" like A B C D rather than B C A D. In both cases we have the same number (4) but a different sequence.

There is no real difference in the "number" of books in Martin's pattern. It has exactly the same books as the regular 66 book Bible. He just "groups" some of them together to arrive at a new number. That's one reason I don't think his work has much meaning. That kind of "number game" can always be rigged to get whatever results you want. Indeed, the Jews say there are 24 books in the Tanakh, which is why Martin had to make up the idea that Joshua and Judges were once (long ago in an undocumented world far far away) "counted" as one book so he could "count" 22 instead of 24. I don't see how such games could be mistaken for reality. And it is here that the contrast with the Bible Wheel is so vivid. The Bible Wheel doesn't change one iota from the standard Bible that God established through His people in His Churches over the centuries. That's why it glorifies God. He gets all the glory because no human or group of humans could have conspired to design the Bible Wheel.

Richard

[Ryn]

In concern for your bible wheel study, had asked if the historical information I learned, the 22 books had affected it, if you had known about it and had done a bible wheel study to check.

To help with that, I looked at the 22 27 design, looking at Exodus, Mark, and 2 Timothy.

In 2 Timothy 1:3 it says of his forefathers, and Moses in 3:8. Exodus starts with names of the children of Israel like the forefathers reference, and has Moses like Paul bringing them out of Egypt, through the reed sea. In Mark it has John the baptist, 1:2 says, As it is written in the Prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 3 The voyce of him that cryeth in the wildernesse, Prepare the way of the Lord: make his paths straight. 4 Iohn did baptize in the wildernesse, and preach the baptisme of amendement of life, for remission of sinnes. 5 And al ye countrey of Iudea, & they of Hierusalem went out vnto him, and were all baptized of him in the riuer Iordan, confessing their sinnes.

They had lined up in a bible wheel.

Also, 2 Timothy 4:14 had said of Alexander the coppersmith, of making of idols it looks like, and Exodus 20:4 says of that. In Mark it has this in chapter 13:14.

It reminded me of the picture on your diagram.

If you believe your study is correct, please take the man made picture off. How shall I share your web page with it on there.

Romans 8:24 For we are saued by hope: but hope that is seene, is not hope: for how can a man hope for that which he seeth?
Romans 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, we doe with patience abide for it.
1Iohn 3:2 Dearely beloued, nowe are we the sonnes of God, but yet it is not made manifest what we shall be: and we know that when he shalbe made manifest, we shalbe like him: for we shall see him as he is.
1Timothy 1:17 Nowe vnto the King euerlasting, immortall, inuisible, vnto God onely wise, be honour and glorie, for euer, and euer, Amen.

[Ryn]

Peter, James, and John.

It's very interesting to see if the bible was put together correctly. I'm finding that the bible says of Peter, James, and John. Reading how they flow together in that order. Reading the end of the book of 2 Peter, the language looks to flow to the book of James. It had said 2 Peter 3:17, beware lest ye fall. James continues with the same thought in verse two. The end of James speaks about confessing sin, this is also said in 1 John 1:9.

Mark 5:37 And he suffered no man to folow him saue Peter and Iames, and Iohn the brother of Iames.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

In concern for your bible wheel study, had asked if the historical information I learned, the 22 books had affected it, if you had known about it and had done a bible wheel study to check.

To help with that, I looked at the 22 27 design, looking at Exodus, Mark, and 2 Timothy.

In 2 Timothy 1:3 it says of his forefathers, and Moses in 3:8. Exodus starts with names of the children of Israel like the forefathers reference, and has Moses like Paul bringing them out of Egypt, through the reed sea. In Mark it has John the baptist, 1:2 says, As it is written in the Prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 3 The voyce of him that cryeth in the wildernesse, Prepare the way of the Lord: make his paths straight. 4 Iohn did baptize in the wildernesse, and preach the baptisme of amendement of life, for remission of sinnes. 5 And al ye countrey of Iudea, & they of Hierusalem went out vnto him, and were all baptized of him in the riuer Iordan, confessing their sinnes.
Well, as noted in my previous post, a link here or there is not the key to discerning the design of the Bible. The "bible wheel" that you propose is disqualified from the beginning for numerous reasons.

The pattern you suggest is not based on any Bible used by any Christian Church in the history of the world. It is a human invention that can not be attributed to God. This contrasts with the real Bible Wheel which is based on the standard 66 book Bible which is the dominant text-form on the planet.
The pattern you suggest is non-symmetric. There is a "chunk" of five books sticking out. This contrasts with the perfect sevenfold symmetry of the real Bible Wheel.
The sequence of books is disordered. This is most obvious is the OT Kethuvim where we find the book of Chronicles placed anachronistically at the end. This contrasts with the perfect order of the Christian Old Testament, and the perfect thematic flow from Malachi 3:1 (Behold I send my messenger) to Matthew 11:10 (For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger ...). The Christian Bible (and the Bible Wheel that is implicit in it) is manifestly perfect on all levels. It is the Work of Almighty God.
The connection you found between Mark and 2 Timothy in your novel order also appears in the other synoptic Gospels, so it does not support the order you suggest.
Etc. ....


They had lined up in a bible wheel.

Also, 2 Timothy 4:14 had said of Alexander the coppersmith, of making of idols it looks like, and Exodus 20:4 says of that. In Mark it has this in chapter 13:14.

It reminded me of the picture on your diagram.

If you believe your study is correct, please take the man made picture off. How shall I share your web page with it on there.
I am guessing you are talking about the ancient icons of Christ produced by faithful Christians under the inspiration of God that show the triradiant halo, correct? To be specific, are you talking about images like this?

http://www.biblewheel.com/art/Prayer_in_Garden_235.jpg

Does this image offend you? If so, why? If not, please explain what you were talking about.

Note that his halo is similar to the geometric structure of God's Word as revealed in the Bible Wheel:

http://www.biblewheel.com/images/CW_147.gif

Thus, the icon of the Living Word Jesus Christ, whom Scripture declares to be the "image [Greek = icon] of the invisible God" is itself prophetically patterned on the geometric structure of the Written Word of God revealed many centuries later. Do you have a problem with this? If so, please explain.

Thanks for your input.

By the way, where are you from? I get the impression that English is not your native tongue.

Richard

[Ryn]

Hi Richard M., thanks for the reply. Those are some verses regarding an image on a bible wheel. Wouldn't want you to be doing badly, your study to be disqualified. The worshipping of an idol is against the bible.

2 Chronicles 33:7 He put also the carued image, which he had made, in the house of God:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard M., thanks for the reply. Those are some verses regarding an image on a bible wheel. Wouldn't want you to be doing badly, your study to be disqualified. The worshipping of an idol is against the bible.

2 Chronicles 33:7 He put also the carued image, which he had made, in the house of God:
Hy Ryn,

I think there has been some confusion. Why are you talking about about "worshipping of an idol"? I would NEVER worship any idol! Never!

What exactly are you talking about?

Richard

[Ryn]

Then please remove the image off a bible wheel.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Then please remove the image off a bible wheel.
What image are you talking about?

[Ryn]

The idol you put on a bible wheel.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The idol you put on a bible wheel.
What idol? I don't know anything about any idol.

Could you please be more specific?

[Ryn]

The image of someone on a bible wheel, please take it off.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The image of someone on a bible wheel, please take it off.
The "image" is from a traditional Christian icon. It is not an "idol" because neither I nor those who produced the icons "worship images." And besides that, I don't "worship" the Bible Wheel, so your complaint doesn't seem to relate to anything I am doing.

Feel free to explain more if you think I failed to understand you.

Again I ask, where are you from? Of what church are you a member? Why do you have a problem with traditional Christian art?

Richard

[Ryn]

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then, as we are the generation of God, we ought not to thinke that ye Godhead is like vnto gold, or siluer, or stone grauen by arte and the inuention of man.

Thanks for replying Richard M.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then, as we are the generation of God, we ought not to thinke that ye Godhead is like vnto gold, or siluer, or stone grauen by arte and the inuention of man.

Thanks for replying Richard M.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[Trumpet]

In the past, and in some places today, images are made of what some people think their God is, and they, in fact, worship directly towards that image, as if it has some sort of life of it's own. This is idol worship.

This is contrasted with an image of art that depicts some of the attributes of God, and brings about a better understanding of those attributes. These objects are not worshipped, they are for our rememberance and learning, much the same as the old saying,"a picture is worth a thousand words."

I'm a very visual person, as many people are. If I couldn't learn things through diagrams, photos, artwork, etc., I'd be a far slower learner than I already am!

Don

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I received this question in an email today, and it seemed relevant to this thread.



Thank you SO much for a very interesting and well performed site. I believe the Lord led me to find these pages and they are for such blessing giving me many answers to questions that I have been asking Him.

Now however, I wonder how you respond to the discussion about the more original 22 + 27 = 49 of BibleBooks?

Could it be that even that way to count is another dimension or wheel (or what ever) in an even larger entirety?


And here is my answer:

First I would like to say that there certainly are many patterns that I have no idea about yet. The Bible is God's Word and so I am convinced that no one will ever exhaust its riches! But concerning the specific count of 49 = 22 + 27 books, I am not sure if there is any value to it. Did you read my review (http://www.biblewheel.com/RR/ELM_Restoring.asp) of Martin's book? I explained there that it would be very easy to count 22 books in the OT books without actually changing anything at all. We just follow the Jewish enumeration and count the double books like Samual and Kings as one each, and the 12 Minor Prophets as a single book, and so forth. The only difference is we need to count Judges and Ruth as one and Jeremiah and Lamentations as one, which most scholars believe is how the Jews counted the books originally anyway.

And so, we arrive at a count of 49. But did we really gain anything by doing this? I don't think so, because the "compressing" of the 39 books into 22 destroys the alphabetic correlation which is the basis of the Bible Wheel and doesn't replace it with anything similar. It also destroys the beautiful sevenfold symmetry of Canon Wheel.

But maybe I missed something. Do you see some value in the 22 + 27 count? If so, please share it with me!

God bless!

Richard