Gog and Magog

[dan]

I am wondering how the battle of Gog and Magog fits into your end time scenario. I have always been taught that it was a battle at the very last before Christ returns....but now I am unsure of how it fits in. Any help in revealing the truth of this battle would be appreciated.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I am wondering how the battle of Gog and Magog fits into your end time scenario. I have always been taught that it was a battle at the very last before Christ returns....but now I am unsure of how it fits in. Any help in revealing the truth of this battle would be appreciated.
Hey Dan,

That's a great question - I hope some folks jump in to help us out. I don't have any solid understanding of the Battle of Gog and Magog yet.
The New Testament doesn't give very much info, so most commentaries contain little more than speculation. And its really not a very big player in the interpretation of Revelation because it appears in only one verse:



Revelation 20:7-8 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


The first thing to note is that "Gog and Magog" is placed in apposition with "the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth" so it may just be a symbolic way of refering to them. But I don't know ...

You asked about it being the "very last battle before Christ returns." That may work from an Amillennialist point of view, but it presents a problem for pre-millennialists because they believe that Jesus returns before the Millenniuim but Revelation 20 says the battle happens after the Millennium. They also have a problem with the description found in Ezekiel 38-39 since that battle seems to happen before the Millennium. This has led some pre-millennialists to suggest there are two different battles associated with Gog and Magog. The first is before Christ returns to set up His Millennial Kingdom, recorded in Ezekiel 38-39, and the second is after the Millennium (during which Gog and Magog recovered enough strength for one final rebellion). I personally don't believe any of that kind of stuff. It seems like a carnal interpretation of Scripture. It seems like a continuation of the errors of the Apostles before they were enlightened at Pentecost. They thought that God's Plan was for a socio-economic earthly ethnic kingdom on a chunk of dirt in the Middle East, whereas the DIVINE PLAN was for a worldwide universal Kingdom of God in which God would rule every heart directly through faith in Christ. A kingdom where we "need not any man to teach" us (1 John 2:27) because every person is "taught of God" (John 6:45). A Kingdom in which there would be no Jew nor Gentile - the true Kingdom of God established in the Stone (Christ) cut without hands that has grown into a great mountain that fills the earth (Dan 2:35), just as the soon (I pray!) to be fulfilled prophecy of the knowledge of the glory of the Lord filling the earth as the waters cover the sea. (Hab 2:14)

Richard

[White]

A kingdom where we "need not any man to teach" us (1 John 2:27) because every person is "taught of God" (John 6:45). A Kingdom in which there would be no Jew nor Gentile - the true Kingdom of God established in the Stone (Christ) cut without hands that has grown into a great mountain that fills the earth (Dan 2:35), just as the soon (I pray!) to be fulfilled prophecy of the knowledge of the glory of the Lord filling the earth as the waters cover the sea. (Hab 2:14)

Richard[/QUOTE]

Hey Richard,

I just watched the movie "The Kingdom of Heaven". It was very revealing and opened my eyes to much of the Century old struggle over the dominion of Jerusalem between the Crusaders (Christians) and the Muslims around 1184. But the key is the statement "The Kingdom of Heaven is in your heart" and is that not what Jesus / Y'shua said: "The Kingdom of God" is within you. As such, when we follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and keep asking for the TRUTH to be revealed, that the TRUTH shall be known and the TRUTH shall set free. :yo:

I like the way you point out the difference between Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 20. Joel Rosenberg was the main speaker at a Prophecy Conference hosted by Jan Markell - Olivetree Ministries - in Minneapolis 2 weeks ago and he keeps pointing to Ezekiel 38-39 as being right around the corner, especially since the leaders of Russia and Iran seem to join hands and their heart's desire is to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth followed by the Great Satan (US). Is Ezekiel 38-39 upon us? The future will tell. :confused2:

May the LORD quickly reveal HIMSELF to all people, but the Jews especially (Romans 1:16) and may HE fulfill all the promises in the Old Testament (Isaiah 2:2-5, Zechariah 8:19-23, Jeremiah 31:31-33, Isaiah 11:1, 11-14, Ezekiel 37:22ff, Amos 9:11-15), Hosea 6:1ff) among others, but let's look at Isaiah 62:-5 " For Zion's sake I will not keep silent, and for Jerusalem's sake, I will not keep quiet, until her righteousness goes forth like brightness and her salvation like a torch that is burning. The nations will see your right-eousness, and all kings your glory; and you will be called by a new name which the mouth of YHVH will designate. You will also be a crown of beauty in the hand of YHVH, and a royal diadem in the hand of your God. It will no longer be said to you, "Forsaken", nor to your land will it any longer be said, "Desolate", but you will be called , "My delight is in her" and your land will be married. For as a young man marries a virgin, so your sons will marry you; and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so your GOD will rejoice over you. :lol:
May the God of Israel accomplish all and more for HIS sake and for the sake of His chosen people and for the sake of HIS only begotten SON who has come into the world not to condem the world, but to save it. (John 3:16-17)

Shalom to Jerusalem and the HOLY LAND and Shalom to all who believe in HIM
White

[ed1944]

I believe I can help with the understanding of the Gog, Magog invasion of Israel, but first I MUST set this up:

I believe before this year is out, the US will attack Iran to disarm their nuclear weapons. However, a bigger issue is an impending attack by Syria and Hezbelloh on Israel, which I believe also will occur by the end of this year.

Israel has already warned Syria of dire consequences to them if they attack Israel.

I believe, in order of a peace accord (Daniel 9:27) to take place, the Arabs will be FORCED to agree to this peace. As we speak, they believe they can last out Israel patiently by eventually driving them to the sea.

But key to understanding is that Isaiah 17 has NOT YET been fulfilled in the destruction of Damascus. This MUST HAPPEN SOON to fit into any Revelation timeline.

Syria and Hezbelloh will attack Israel and the war won't initially go well for them. Their backs will be against the wall and they will cut off the head, Syria, by destroying Damascus, in desperation. How this is done, I cannot say. Perhaps the use of a nuclear warhead. But Israel's victory is so decisive, this act FORCES the Arabs to the peace table.

I might note that Bashar Al-Assad has already removed critical elements of his government away from Damascus to other locations. This occurred about a month ago. Does he anticipate something??

What's critical in understanding of the timeline is that this peace accord is agreed upon. The one who agrees to this covenant with Israel, and who allows them to re-institute their daily sacrifice is the Biblical Antichrist.

However, as a condition of this peace, the Arabs will INSIST Israel will be totally disarmed. Israel wouldn't do this, but George Bush will step forward to ensure her protection. George wants a legacy in his 'roadmap' to peace. Note that Ezekiel Israel dwells in peace and safety without GATES AND BARS.
This stronly implies she is DISARMED!

This accord is the beginning of the 'seven'. It is this agreement, TIMING WISE, that the Lord sends forth His two witnesses, Elijah to America (Mystery Babylon) to restore God's people to holiness (the remaing 'six' spiritual churches described in Revelation 2 and 3) and Moses, is sent to Israel to bring them to accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah (Ezekiel 37:18-28 describes this sudden conversion). BOTH are sent to restore the two elements of God's people, the Christian in America (Mystery Babylon) and the Jew, God's chosen people, who are in Israel. Most do no understand that Christianity is grafted onto the spiritual tree of Judaism.

All of this occurs before the Gog-Magog invasion, God will restore His people to holiness. The two witness ministry is 1260 days (3 1/2 years).

After Elijah's ministry in America, to bring JUDGMENT, and also to 'restore' God's people (Malachi 4:5), he will meet up with Moses in Israel. This occurs just prior to America's ultimate destruction, a sudden nuclear attack by Russia.

If I were to use the following words to describe a nation, what nation would you consider it to be?

A nation of excessive luxuries, a nation of trade, lounging in security, a nation living by many waters and are rich in treasures, God’s people are in her, a nation attacked by an army from faraway lands from the north, who will overtake her in a moment, a catastrophe she cannot see will suddenly come upon her, in one day, in one hour, consumed by fire, consumed like Sodom and Gomorrah, a fire kindled in her towns that consume all that are around it, the rising sun will darken, and the moon will not give her light, a nation desolated forever, never to be recovered, a nation left with no remnant, no one will be spared, no one will live in it, never to be inhabited or lived in again through all generations, people will stand far off, see the smoke of her burning, smoke that reaches the skies and rises as high as the clouds, those who pass by will be horrified by her wounds!

These words were taken as excerpts from 4 sources, Isaiah 13, Jeremiah 50, 51, and Revelations 18. All identify a nation of the future. The Babylon of old, that Bible Scholars, Theologians, and Christian leaders generally believe these messages identify, does not fit this description. The Old Testament Babylon (modern Iraq) was neither destroyed in a single day, a single hour, was burned by fire so that no one would live in it again through all generations. What’s most interesting is the identity of the attackers from the north. This north is the same north (relative to Israel ) that attacks Israel in Ezekiel 38, Russia .

Also of note is the phrase, ‘a nation living by many waters and rich in treasures’. A study of the full context of the description of this nation will reveal that there is only one nation on the face of the globe living by many waters and rich in treasures which gets attacked from an enemy for ‘faraway lands from the north’. Mystery Babylon is America!

The Lord uses BOTH witnesses to call down fire upon the invading Russian army, along with our coalition allies, including Iran. The reason God MUST interevene is that Hillary Clinton (our next President) betrays Israel and won't come to her aid.

Note that the Two Witnesses have the power over the elements, the earth, the wind, the water, and the fire.

This invasion of Israel occurs close to the middle of the 'seven'. What's also very important to understand, that this invasion and the destruction of the invading army also causes the destruction of those who dwell in the 'coastlands'. Coastlands refers to only Mystery Babylon (America). Note what it says in Jeremiah 50-51.

Russia sees her armies destroyed, supernaturally by God, Himself. However, they believe it not being an act of God, but America which does this and they retailiate in a full fledged nuclear attack in the total destruction of Mystery Babylon!

How is Hillary Clinton involved? I shared with the Body as early as April 2002 that Hillary Clinton would be our President in 2009, even before she ran for the NY Senate seat. Note the mystery behind young John Kennedy's death in the airplane crash who was the ONLY REAL THREAT against her.

Hillary Clinton is the exemplification of the revived Jezebel Spirit, and Bill is the revived Ahab. Jezebel was the power behind the evil king, Ahab as Hillary was the power behind Bill in the Oval Office. Few, if any of you, know or understand that while in office, Hillary has set up a government within the government of more than a thousand people who ANSWER ONLY TO HER. They came from the DOD, State Department, the FBI, CIA, even in the Pentagon, and powerful and notable people without the government as well.
This 'inner' government is still in place, according to three biographies written about her, American Evita, Hillary's Secret War, and the TRUTH about Hillary.

Note that Elijah's ministry occurred during their evil reign in I Kings, to stand up to rebuke them. This is a forestaste and parallel to Hillary's upcoming rise to power in America. Elijah's ministry in America will occur during her reign.

The Lord appoints Hillary into power in America with the expressed purpose to persecute God's people. Sadly, the ONLY WAY He can get His people to come out of their caves, to awaken the Bride and to FOCUS ON HIS FACE, He must put them through the trials of tribulations. They will be FORCED to cry out to Him continually, day and night, or THEY WILL NOT SURVIVE!! He will
AWAKEN the Bride, to make them a holy Bride, without spot or blemish!

Oh, by the way, a small comment about the rapture(s) to those of you who are interested. Note that the Philadelphia Church is spared the 'hour of trial' (Revelations 3:10). Note that in Revelation 6:9 there are those in heaven who were SLAIN for their testimony and the Word of God, but they must wait a little while longer while their fellow brethren (the saints) wash their robes in the Great Tribulation. Both are seen together in heaven in Revelation 7:7
and 14.

But I ask this question which Paul presented (paraphrased) when he said,
"What's the greater joy, to serve the Lord here on earth or to be with Him in heaven?"

Why did the Lord spare the Philadelphia Church from the tribulations? There was no need to further purify them! They held fast to the purity of His Word and NEVER denied Him!

When you think of holding 'fast' to the purity of God's Word, consider the standard of holiness the Lord set for His people, virtually IGNORED by nearly all!

It is found in Matthew 11:11 when He says, "Among those born of women, there is risen none greater than John the Baptist; yet, HE WHO IS LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS GREATER THAN HE (John).

John was the human witness to the diety of Christ, and he also was beheaded for his testimony! Who, among you, are greater than John?

Read Matthew 10L37-39. This is the calling we are ALL called to do, to carry our cross for Christ and to freely offer up our very lives, our most valued possession, for His sake!

I, of course, presume that those of you who claim you do this, have also 'died of self', and of course you have demonstrated in the FULL MEASURE OF FAITH AS ABRAHAM by allowing the Lord, the GREAT PHYSICIAN, to heal you, rather than use secular doctors or drugs to heal your afflictions. But, of course, you do!

If there are any of you wishing to 'debate' this issue or to 'share', contact me on d09e@sbcglobal.net. I will not be visiting this FORUM again.

I'm a subscriber to another FORUM which was set up by brethren who are watchmen in these last days, those who prophecy, dream 'dreams' and who have visions regarding our imminent future. And WE ALL ARE IN AGREEMENT about those things I've shared with you.

God bless,

Ed

[Richard Amiel McGough]

If there are any of you wishing to 'debate' this issue or to 'share', contact me on d09e@sbcglobal.net. I will not be visiting this FORUM again.

I'm a subscriber to another FORUM which was set up by brethren who are watchmen in these last days, those who prophecy, dream 'dreams' and who have visions regarding our imminent future. And WE ALL ARE IN AGREEMENT about those things I've shared with you.

God bless,

Ed

Hi Ed1944,

Whether or not this will be your only post, I still extend to you a warm welcome to our forum!

:welcome:

I would be very interested to know the internent address of that other forum where "ALL ARE IN AGREEMENT" about the things you have written. You see, I find that claim incredible because the position you put forth is highly controversial and has no solid biblical basis. In my experience, it is rare to find perfect agreement on the main and plain things of the Gospel, and I have never seen perfect agreement on idiosyncratic eschatological speculations based on current newspaper headlines.

That said, I will now review your post from the beginning:


I believe I can help with the understanding of the Gog, Magog invasion of Israel, but first I MUST set this up:

I believe before this year is out, the US will attack Iran to disarm their nuclear weapons. However, a bigger issue is an impending attack by Syria and Hezbelloh on Israel, which I believe also will occur by the end of this year.
:Date_Setting:
This is what I meant by "speculations based on current newspaper headlines." All the pop prophecy teachers are currently raging about Iran, with false-teacher John Hagee leading the pack. It reminds me of Pat Robertson's false prophecy (http://jeffperado.blogspot.com/2006/11/pat-robertson-prophecy-redux.html) about a tsunnami hitting America in 2006 that he lifted from the headlines of the 2005 Asian tsunnami. Its no different than all the false prophecies spewed forth by Hal Lindsey about the Soviet Union attacking Israel in the 1970s. What a joke! The Soviet Union does not even exist any more! Such is the fate of all the false prophets.


Israel has already warned Syria of dire consequences to them if they attack Israel.

I believe, in order of a peace accord (Daniel 9:27) to take place, the Arabs will be FORCED to agree to this peace. As we speak, they believe they can last out Israel patiently by eventually driving them to the sea.
What "peace accord"? The word "peace" does not occur in Daniel 9:27. There is no biblical basis for this wild speculation.


But key to understanding is that Isaiah 17 has NOT YET been fulfilled in the destruction of Damascus. This MUST HAPPEN SOON to fit into any Revelation timeline.
I would be so happy to learn your definition of the word "SOON." Is it the same as what we find in Revelation 1:1?


NIV Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must SOON take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,


I mean, if we are going to form a "Revelation timeline" maybe we should try reading the Book of Revelation! The time-markers are perfectly clear:


KJV Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. [in the first century]

Now as for Isaiah's prophecy of the destruction of Damascus, that was fullfilled in 735 BC by Tiglath-Pileser III. This is common knowledge. Here's a typical statement of the history of Damascus (http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/damascus.htm) that you can find from many sources:



Damascus was captured and destroyed by the Assyrians under Tiglath-Pileser. The inhabitants were carried captive into Assyria, just like the northern kingdom of Israel (2 Kings 16:7-9). This fall was a fulfillment of prophecy (Isaiah 17:1, Amos 1:4-5, Jeremiah 49:24)

This exemplifies the primary error of the modern pop-prophecy teachers. They rip verses out of context and ignore their fulfillment in history. This is most egregious when they ignore glorious prophecies of Daniel that were fulfilled in the Life, Death, and Resurrection of the King of Glory, Jesus Christ! They destroy the testimony of God. The prophecies were given to prove that Jesus is the Christ. That's what the Bible is all about. Yet these pop-prophecy teachers trample their true fulfillment in Christ and replace the King of Glory with endless occult divinations about the end of the world. It is a HORROR to observe such abuse of God's Holy Word!



Syria and Hezbelloh will attack Israel and the war won't initially go well for them. Their backs will be against the wall and they will cut off the head, Syria, by destroying Damascus, in desperation. How this is done, I cannot say. Perhaps the use of a nuclear warhead. But Israel's victory is so decisive, this act FORCES the Arabs to the peace table.
It sounds like you are taking the fulfilled prophecies of Isaiah 7-9 and appying them to the modern state of Israel. How do you justify that?



I might note that Bashar Al-Assad has already removed critical elements of his government away from Damascus to other locations. This occurred about a month ago. Does he anticipate something??
More random speculation. What does any of this have to do with God's Holy Word?



What's critical in understanding of the timeline is that this peace accord is agreed upon. The one who agrees to this covenant with Israel, and who allows them to re-institute their daily sacrifice is the Biblical Antichrist.
Daniel 9:27 says nothing about an "anti-christ" who will "re-institute their daily sacrifice." That is a total fantasy. It is not based on a single verse of Scripture. It is, therefore, unbiblical speculation.

The truth of Daniel 9:27 is that it speaks of Christ ending the Jewish sacrificial by His Sacrifice on the Cross. He confirmed the NEW COVENANT with many. Jesus is the heart and center of all prophecy, as it is written: "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" (Rev 19:10). This is the error of all the pop-prophecy false teachers. They are REPLACEMENT THEOLOGIANS. They have replaced the testimony of the Lord of Glory for a load of false occult divinations about the end of the world.

The madness of it all is evident in the fact that they have ALWAYS BEEN WRONG! Yet they continue with their false predictions. "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12)



However, as a condition of this peace, the Arabs will INSIST Israel will be totally disarmed. Israel wouldn't do this, but George Bush will step forward to ensure her protection. George wants a legacy in his 'roadmap' to peace. Note that Ezekiel Israel dwells in peace and safety without GATES AND BARS.
This stronly implies she is DISARMED!
Now you brought George Bush into the picture. When he exits office, you will be proven wrong again. What I would really like to know is how many time have your predictions been proven false in the past? Care to share?


This accord is the beginning of the 'seven'. It is this agreement, TIMING WISE, that the Lord sends forth His two witnesses, Elijah to America (Mystery Babylon) to restore God's people to holiness (the remaing 'six' spiritual churches described in Revelation 2 and 3) and Moses, is sent to Israel to bring them to accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah (Ezekiel 37:18-28 describes this sudden conversion). BOTH are sent to restore the two elements of God's people, the Christian in America (Mystery Babylon) and the Jew, God's chosen people, who are in Israel. Most do no understand that Christianity is grafted onto the spiritual tree of Judaism.
Its a good thing that "Most do no understand that Christianity is grafted onto the spiritual tree of Judaism" because that statement is FALSE. "Judaism" as an Old Covenant religion was completed in Christ and died and was reborn in Christ and blossomed into the Christian Church. All Jews who were believers at the time this happened remained in the Olive Tree. They were the first Christians. The unbelieving Jews were broken off the Olive Tree, which is the Church of Christ. And how do we know it is the Church of Christ? Simple set theory. Every branch in the Olive Tree believes in Christ, and every unbelieving branch is broken off. Therefore, the set of members in the Body of Christ is identical to the set of branches in the Olive Tree, so the Olive Tree represents the same set as the Body of Christ. QED.


All of this occurs before the Gog-Magog invasion, God will restore His people to holiness. The two witness ministry is 1260 days (3 1/2 years).

After Elijah's ministry in America, to bring JUDGMENT, and also to 'restore' God's people (Malachi 4:5), he will meet up with Moses in Israel. This occurs just prior to America's ultimate destruction, a sudden nuclear attack by Russia.
Well, I think we've gone far enough for now. When the interpretors are willing to superimpose their imaginations about America, Russia, and nuclear bombs upon the Holy Word of God, I say its time to quit!

But it has been fun, and I think valuable to review the state of the current endtime prognostications.

:Date_Setting:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I like the way you point out the difference between Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 20. Joel Rosenberg was the main speaker at a Prophecy Conference hosted by Jan Markell - Olivetree Ministries - in Minneapolis 2 weeks ago and he keeps pointing to Ezekiel 38-39 as being right around the corner, especially since the leaders of Russia and Iran seem to join hands and their heart's desire is to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth followed by the Great Satan (US). Is Ezekiel 38-39 upon us? The future will tell. :confused2:
Hi Monique!

I would be very interested to learn more of Rosenberg's interpretations. Perhaps I should get one of his books - he is a major commentaror on prophecy and the middle east right now. He is influencing the understanding of many folks.

As for Ezekiel 38-39: As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I don't know how to interpret those passages yet. But my first impression is that most of the book of Ezekiel was probably talking about events spanning the 6th century BC (destruction of the First Temple) up through first century AD with the coming of Christ and formation of the Church - the True Bride of Christ and People of God. For example, it seems really clear to me that Ezekiel 37 is a prophecy of Pentecost when God poured out His Spirit and wrote the New Covenant on the Heart of His People. This is confirmed in Hebrews 8 and Jeremiah 31 which speaks of the two houses of Judah and Israel being JOINED as one, which also happened at Pentecost, and which seems to fit very well with the prophecy of the Two Sticks in Ezekiel:



Ezekiel 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

God first united the two sticks at Pentecost when He gathered the twelve tribes from the four corners of the world. Then He grafted in the Gentiles into the New Covenant. Thus, all the prophecies were fulfilled in the great and mighty day of the Lord when Christ came and set up His Kingdom on earth in the first century. All Christians are now part of that Kingdom. Of course, I am not saying that we have reached the consummation yet, but I am saying that the PROPHECIES spoke primarily of those days in the first century, just like Peter said: "Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days [fulfilled in the FIRST CENTURY]."


May the LORD quickly reveal HIMSELF to all people, but the Jews especially (Romans 1:16) and may HE fulfill all the promises in the Old Testament (Isaiah 2:2-5, Zechariah 8:19-23, Jeremiah 31:31-33, Isaiah 11:1, 11-14, Ezekiel 37:22ff, Amos 9:11-15), Hosea 6:1ff) among others, but let's look at Isaiah 62:-5 " For Zion's sake I will not keep silent, and for Jerusalem's sake, I will not keep quiet, until her righteousness goes forth like brightness and her salvation like a torch that is burning. The nations will see your right-eousness, and all kings your glory; and you will be called by a new name which the mouth of YHVH will designate. You will also be a crown of beauty in the hand of YHVH, and a royal diadem in the hand of your God. It will no longer be said to you, "Forsaken", nor to your land will it any longer be said, "Desolate", but you will be called , "My delight is in her" and your land will be married. For as a young man marries a virgin, so your sons will marry you; and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so your GOD will rejoice over you. :lol:
May the God of Israel accomplish all and more for HIS sake and for the sake of His chosen people and for the sake of HIS only begotten SON who has come into the world not to condem the world, but to save it. (John 3:16-17)

Shalom to Jerusalem and the HOLY LAND and Shalom to all who believe in HIM
White
God's delight is in His People Monique! And who are God's People? All Christians, as it is written: "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh" (Philippians 3:3).

You want us to pray for the fulfillment of the promises of the Old Testament? What do you mean? Do you not see them all fulfilled in Christ Jesus our Lord? The GOSPEL OF CHRIST is the total fulfillment of Jeremiah 31! What could an earthly ethnic kingdom add to that? And as for your prayer for the fulfillment of Isaiah 62: For Zion's sake I will not keep silent, and for Jerusalem's sake, I will not keep quiet, until her righteousness goes forth like brightness and her salvation like a torch that is burning. Well, lift your voice and PRAISE GOD for He has fulfilled all those promises in Christ Jesus, for we are Mount Zion, as it is written,


Hebrews 12:22-24 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

And Jesus Christ is our Righteousness which has gone forth "like the brightness." Praise God! He has fulfilled ALL HIS PROMISES in Christ Jesus! Every one of them!

Let us proclaim this truth to all peoples of the Earth! Jesus is Lord! Jesus is Messiah! For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us [Christians]. (2 Corinthians 1:20)

I pray for the day that all Christians will see that all prophecy points to our great and glorious Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. He is what teh Bible is all about! The modern pop-prophecy teachers have been wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong in everything they have written concerning the endtimes up to this day. Why believe anything they say? They trample on the testimony of Jesus which is the spirit of prophecy! (Rev 19:10).

:Date_Setting: <===== Modern pop prophecy teachers


Richard

[TheForgiven]

I will explain a little later (short on time) what Gog and Ma-Gog represents. Richard keyed in on it when he noticed it represented the nations surrounding Israel. That is in fact who John was talking about. And who was it that got attacked? Jerusalem, but what about today's time? I see many people still centering on geographical Israel. But you must ask yourself, "What is the city that God loves?" The answer is here:


Hebrews 12:
22 But ye have come unto Mount Zion and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, who are written in Heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Which Jerusalem city does God love, the worldly or Heavenly? Get the answer right, then you'll know what city it is that God loves, and which city the armies of Gog / Ma-Gog attempt to surround.


I'll post more later.:yo:

Joe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I will explain a little later (short on time) what Gog and Ma-Gog represents. Richard keyed in on it when he noticed it represented the nations surrounding Israel. That is in fact who John was talking about. And who was it that got attacked? Jerusalem, but what about today's time? I see many people still centering on geographical Israel. But you must ask yourself, "What is the city that God loves?" The answer is here:


Hebrews 12:
22 But ye have come unto Mount Zion and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, who are written in Heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Which Jerusalem city does God love, the worldly or Heavenly? Get the answer right, then you'll know what city it is that God loves, and which city the armies of Gog / Ma-Gog attempt to surround.


I'll post more later.:yo:

Joe
Joe! Excellent answer! :congrats:

When reading Rev 20 I was confused by the reference to the "Beloved City" because God had made it perfectly clear the literal physical Jerusalem was an abomination "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt." The identity of the "Beloved City" is now totally obvious and incontrovertible. Let's look at Rev 20 again:



Revelation 20:7-9 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

The "Camp of the Saints" is the CHRISTIAN CHURCH. It is Beloved of God and His Saints because it is the "city" in which His Son our Lord Jesus Christ resides, exactly as stated in Hebrews 12:22 that you quoted above.

This is the glory of God's perfect Prophecy! His Bible is glorious beyond description. It is perfectly consistent with itself to those who have eyes to see.

Praise God now and forever in His Beloved City, the New Jerusalem, the Holy Church of Christ, the Camp of His Saints!

Richard

[dan]

Questions questions and more questions:
Question 1.
Is there a relationship here:
Ezekiel 38:11 go up against a land of unwalled villages
Zech 2:4 Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls
Rev 20:9 surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city.

Question 2.
Gen 10:2 The sons of Japheth were Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech and Tiras
It seems that Japheth is derived from a root meaning to decieve...is that true??

Question 3.
The only place other than Ezekiel and Revelation that Gog is mentioned seems to be 1Chronicles 5:4. He was a descendant of Reuben (who lost his birth right).

any help or elaboration would be appreciated.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Questions questions and more questions:
Hey Dan,

Thanks for the questions! They are very very helpful, because I need to know if I have overlooked something, and the only way to test that is to have other folks ask questions and cahllenge things.




Question 1.
Is there a relationship here:
Ezekiel 38:11 go up against a land of unwalled villages
Zech 2:4 Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls
Rev 20:9 surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city.
That is a very interesting set of verses. They seem to fit together perfectly. The saints most certainly "dwell in safety" (Ezek 38:11) in the New Jerusalem where and "the gates of it shall not be shut" (Rev 21:25). The understanding of the New Jerusalem as the Church also explains the presence of the unbelieving "dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters: that are outside the gates.

Furthermore, in Ezek 38:22 God says "I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone" and this corresponds exactly with what happens in Rev 20 "and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone."




Question 2.
Gen 10:2 The sons of Japheth were Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech and Tiras
It seems that Japheth is derived from a root meaning to decieve...is that true??
No. The Bible, in its wondrous fulness, gives us the etymological root of Japhet in this wordplay found in Genesis:


Genesis 9:27 God shall enlarge (yapht) Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.


The word "yapht" is spelt with exactly the same three consonants as Japhet (in Hebrew names, the "J" is always supposed to sound like a "Y"). It is the "hiphil imperfect 3rd person masculine singular" form of the verb patah which means "to open" - hence the idea of "enlarge." Christians are familiar with this root through the transiliterated Aramaic in Mark:


Mark 7:34 And looking up to heaven, he sighed, and saith unto him, Ephphatha, that is, Be opened.

I discuss this in my article on the letter Pey (= mouth) (http://www.biblewheel.com/wheel/spokes/Peh_Mouth.asp).




Question 3.
The only place other than Ezekiel and Revelation that Gog is mentioned seems to be 1Chronicles 5:4. He was a descendant of Reuben (who lost his birth right).

any help or elaboration would be appreciated.
I'm not sure if that is the same Gog. There is no way to tell from the context.

Richard

[TheForgiven]

I for one do not believe that the phrase Gog and Ma-Gog in Revelation was speaking of a physical place or city. And you all hit on something that sounds very interesting, and from what I've read, the word "Deceived" seems to ring a bell. Lately, from a Partial Preterist stand-point, I believe this represents the nation or religion of Islam trying to attack the Church. But if I were to use this in the full preterist position, we would have to find something that matches this in history, primarily in the first century, or even the third century. If I were to do that, while understanding that the "camp of the Saints" which abides in the "City He loves" is the Church, this would be an outside force which attacks the Church.

Now scripturally, in the Old Testament, the "camp" was a place only for those who have been purified or were deemed to be "clean" from sin or sickness:

Leviticus 13
42 And if there be in the bald head or bald forehead a white reddish sore, it is leprosy sprung up in his bald head or his bald forehead. 43 Then the priest shall look upon it; and behold, if the rising of the sore is reddish white in his bald head or in his bald forehead, as the leprosy appeareth in the skin of the flesh, 44 he is a leprous man; he is unclean. The priest shall pronounce him utterly unclean; his plague is on his head. 45 "And the leper in whom the plague is, his clothes shall be rent and his head bare, and he shall put a covering upon his upper lip and shall cry, `Unclean, unclean.' 46 All the days wherein the plague shall be in him he shall be defiled; he is unclean. He shall dwell alone; outside the camp shall his habitation be.

There are many example of this in the Old Testament, so I'll just quote the one above; they all pretty much deal with the same thing. This matches with the "camp" of the saints in Revelation, denoting the city to be the meeting inside the camp for those who have been cleansed or considered holy. This satisfies the interpretation of the camp within the city God loves; and we know the camp to be the Church.

Therefore, what remains is who is attacking the Saints within the camp, and when did / will this happen?

Theories are:
1. This was a picture of the Roman's murdering thousands of Christians prior to 70AD.
2. This was a picture of the Romans killing Christians (Primarily Gentiles) within the many foreign regions in the first three centuries until Christianity became the official religion in the 3rd century, thereby ending Christian persecution for a long while
3. This was a picture of the RCC attacking the Saints via Spanish Inquisition and the Muslim / English crusades in battle over Israel (Who'll maintain dominion over the region)
4. This is a picture of Muslims attacking the Christians today, in the hopes of surrounding the Christians and wiping out Christianity along with the Jews.

So, which one is correct? Me personally, I tend to lean towards number 4 and here are the reasons why. At first I stuck with the Full Preterist doctrine, but some things are just too difficult to swallow. For one, even after 70AD, when the Harlot was destroyed, the Christian Church faced an ongoing threat by the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire saw Christianity as a threat to their temple finances. One Early Church Father (Forgot his name) in the 2nd century writes about how the temples were declining in funds because more and more Romans, Italians, and Greeks (what ever) were converting more and more to Christianity. This meant the declining sales in temple sacrificial and offering items such as meats and incense. Therefore, this could not have been fulfilled in 70AD. Plus, notice this passage after the Harlot is destroyed:

THE HARLOT DESTROYED
6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the[d] Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Now that the Harlot is out of the way, who gets it next?


11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[e] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

When Jerusalem was destroyed, the Church was now ready to become the worlds beacon and government that rules over the earth. But the haughty attitude of the Roman Empire, although was previously used to destroy the Harlot, was now under reform by the Kingdom of God. Christianity had already taken a hold on the Gentiles thanks to the ministry of the gospels to the Gentiles prior to the Harlots (Former wife) removal, but the Empire itself was still a very huge threat. Thus we read that Christ, having taken His bride and striking down the nations with the sword from the mouth of Christ; the sword is the word of God which He uses to strike down the nations....but the Beast didn't die without a fight:

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.” 19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

The Beast was coming to an end. This picture was presented in Daniel's vision as to how long the Romans would have to live, even after the power of the saints had been shattered:


Daniel 7: THE BEAST KILLED BUT SOME WOULD BE ALLOTED A TIME TO LIVE
9 “ I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.

11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. [B]12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

This shows that even after the judgment of Daniel's people and his city after suffering at the hands of a vast Beast (Roman Empire), the Beast in Revelation, being the same as Daniel's Beast, was killed, but a remnant of it's life would be prolonged for a season. This was to test the Gentiles; they would begin suffering even more and many would be tested in the Arena, tossed to wild beasts for fun, and tortured in ways you and I couldn't fathom. This would eventually end, after the 10th persecution under Emperor Diocletian in 313 AD, the last Roman Emperor who tried to kill Christianity. But this still doesn't answer our question, which one of these events might represent Gog and Ma-Gog in Revelation? My answer is none of the above. The remnant of the Roman Empire after destroying Jerusalem, was now suffering weakness through the Kingdom of God. Using the word of God, the Roman Empire was losing pagan ground to the Christians, but at the cost of a great deal of blood, murder, and persecution. We then read:

Revelation 20:
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

The Roman Empire (Beast) had been defeated, and Satan who deceived them was stripped of his deceptive influence for the next 1000 years; not a literal 1000 years for the Greek word used denounces a plural 1000 years, so this simply means a very long time.

Therefore, this can only mean that the Saints of the city being attacked by Gog and Ma-Gog, IMHO, represents a future threat; future from the perspective of John in the first century. The Inquisition which began in the 11th century could be a good historical candidate, but I don't believe that to be the case. Why? Because that was the Spanish and English Church attempting to kill Jews who confessed to be Christians but were in fact practicing the old customs of the Law. And the Christians who were being killed were of the Greek Orthodox Church. This schism broke out in 1054 AD, when the Greek Church rejected the idea of having a Pope as the Vicar of Christ. To this day, they still fight over this. But then, we still haven't answer the question of who Gog and Ma-Gog may represent.

Here's my theory. It is quite possible that Islam, the "DECEIVED" false religion claiming to be from God, has many purposes, is the Gog and Ma-Gog which surrounds the camp of the Saints; the city He loves. There objectives are:

1. Conquer the world and force all nations to worship under Islam
2. Destroy Christianity and all Jews of the flesh (True Jews are Christian)
3. Infiltrate every nations government and society to gain a foot-hold in order to achieve the first two steps.

Therefore, IMHO, we are in the days of Gog and Ma-Gog attacking the city God loves, the Church. But what does the scripture say?

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

You now have my answer from a Partial Preterist point of view. However, I'm quite understanding of the Full Preterist point of view. But as I indicated, if you're going to submit to the Full Preterist eschatology, then you must place all the events in 70AD, and that is quite difficult to do. It is possible as long as you teach that the 1000 years were in fact, one day. For as Peter say, a thousand years are but a day, and a day a thousand years....so the 1000 years could have been one day. If this is true, then all the events could have been fulfilled in 70AD. But then this leaves the question of the martyrs even after 70AD, and we're talking countless martyrs. The story of Perpetua leaves me in tears when I read of her account.

Let me know what you all think.

Joseph

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I for one do not believe that the phrase Gog and Ma-Gog in Revelation was speaking of a physical place or city. And you all hit on something that sounds very interesting, and from what I've read, the word "Deceived" seems to ring a bell. Lately, from a Partial Preterist stand-point, I believe this represents the nation or religion of Islam trying to attack the Church. But if I were to use this in the full preterist position, we would have to find something that matches this in history, primarily in the first century, or even the third century. If I were to do that, while understanding that the "camp of the Saints" which abides in the "City He loves" is the Church, this would be an outside force which attacks the Church.
It seems to me that you have moved form the Prerterist into the Historical camp with your interepretation of Gog and Magog as Islam. Not that there's anything wrong with that! <Seinfeld> But I think a much better and overall consistent interpetation is found in when we see the thousand years as the Church age, and the army of Gog and Magog as the "sea of unbelievers (corresponding to the Gentiles in the Jewish age). This then matches the image of "Crossing the Jordon" in the the Promised Land which is not a picture of Heaven as some have suggested (and who were disputed because of the wars in Joshua) but is, rather, a picture of the Kingdom of Heaven where we are now and have been since the Kingdom was established on earth in Jesus Christ and His Church. Thus "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."



Now scripturally, in the Old Testament, the "camp" was a place only for those who have been purified or were deemed to be "clean" from sin or sickness:

<snip>

There are many example of this in the Old Testament, so I'll just quote the one above; they all pretty much deal with the same thing. This matches with the "camp" of the saints in Revelation, denoting the city to be the meeting inside the camp for those who have been cleansed or considered holy. This satisfies the interpretation of the camp within the city God loves; and we know the camp to be the Church.

Therefore, what remains is who is attacking the Saints within the camp, and when did / will this happen?
I agree about the meaning of the "camp of the saints" but I suggest that it is a constant battle as God fulfills the Lord's Prayer - "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven." The Stone smashed the feet of the image of Man's Kingdom and is now growing to fill the whole earth. The end will come when this Gospel of the Kingdom of God is preached in word and deed throughout the world.



Theories are:
1. This was a picture of the Roman's murdering thousands of Christians prior to 70AD.
2. This was a picture of the Romans killing Christians (Primarily Gentiles) within the many foreign regions in the first three centuries until Christianity became the official religion in the 3rd century, thereby ending Christian persecution for a long while
3. This was a picture of the RCC attacking the Saints via Spanish Inquisition and the Muslim / English crusades in battle over Israel (Who'll maintain dominion over the region)
4. This is a picture of Muslims attacking the Christians today, in the hopes of surrounding the Christians and wiping out Christianity along with the Jews.

I think you missed one. If the Thousand Years represents the Church age, then the war with Gog and Magog represents the struggle of the Church against the World. Seems pretty clear to me. That's option #5.


So, which one is correct? Me personally, I tend to lean towards number 4 and here are the reasons why. At first I stuck with the Full Preterist doctrine, but some things are just too difficult to swallow. For one, even after 70AD, when the Harlot was destroyed, the Christian Church faced an ongoing threat by the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire saw Christianity as a threat to their temple finances. One Early Church Father (Forgot his name) in the 2nd century writes about how the temples were declining in funds because more and more Romans, Italians, and Greeks (what ever) were converting more and more to Christianity. This meant the declining sales in temple sacrificial and offering items such as meats and incense. Therefore, this could not have been fulfilled in 70AD.
There is no problem if we take Option #5 since that view predicts a continued battle between the Church and the World (Gog and Magog).



Plus, notice this passage after the Harlot is destroyed:

<snip>

Now that the Harlot is out of the way, who gets it next?

When Jerusalem was destroyed, the Church was now ready to become the worlds beacon and government that rules over the earth. But the haughty attitude of the Roman Empire, although was previously used to destroy the Harlot, was now under reform by the Kingdom of God. Christianity had already taken a hold on the Gentiles thanks to the ministry of the gospels to the Gentiles prior to the Harlots (Former wife) removal, but the Empire itself was still a very huge threat. Thus we read that Christ, having taken His bride and striking down the nations with the sword from the mouth of Christ; the sword is the word of God which He uses to strike down the nations....but the Beast didn't die without a fight:

<snip>

The Roman Empire (Beast) had been defeated, and Satan who deceived them was stripped of his deceptive influence for the next 1000 years; not a literal 1000 years for the Greek word used denounces a plural 1000 years, so this simply means a very long time.
The plural can not be used as an indicator of anything because the word chilias or chilio is always used in the plural even when denoting a singular "one thousand." For example, the number "one thousand" in the phrase "one thousand two hundred sixty" of Rev 11:3 is written in the plural.



Therefore, this can only mean that the Saints of the city being attacked by Gog and Ma-Gog, IMHO, represents a future threat; future from the perspective of John in the first century.
Or it could be Option #5, could it not? A continued battle between the Church and the World. For indeed, "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." It is important not to confuse the true Kingdom of God with any earthly visible government - that is the primary error of Dispensationalism. Christ said "My kingdom is not of this world." The Gospel is SPIRITUAL and must be understood spiritually. The carnal mind understands none of it.




The Inquisition which began in the 11th century could be a good historical candidate, but I don't believe that to be the case. Why? Because that was the Spanish and English Church attempting to kill Jews who confessed to be Christians but were in fact practicing the old customs of the Law. And the Christians who were being killed were of the Greek Orthodox Church. This schism broke out in 1054 AD, when the Greek Church rejected the idea of having a Pope as the Vicar of Christ. To this day, they still fight over this. But then, we still haven't answer the question of who Gog and Ma-Gog may represent.
I think trying to specify "who Gog and Ma-Gog may represent" is probably going well beyond the intent of the text which mentions them in one and only one verse of the NT. Personally, I feel a need to restrain my speculation on this point. So again, I think Option #5 is probably the best. But I remain open to other options.




Here's my theory. It is quite possible that Islam, the "DECEIVED" false
religion claiming to be from God, has many purposes, is the Gog and Ma-Gog which surrounds the camp of the Saints; the city He loves. There objectives are:

1. Conquer the world and force all nations to worship under Islam
2. Destroy Christianity and all Jews of the flesh (True Jews are Christian)
3. Infiltrate every nations government and society to gain a foot-hold in order to achieve the first two steps.

Therefore, IMHO, we are in the days of Gog and Ma-Gog attacking the city God loves, the Church. But what does the scripture say?

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

You now have my answer from a Partial Preterist point of view.

I think you presented your view very well, and from my perspective, it could be a valid "secondary application" of the prophecy which primarily indicates the continued struggle of the Church in the World.

As for your designation of it as an "answer from a Partial Preterist point of view" - it seems to me to be from the "Historical" view.




However, I'm quite understanding of the Full Preterist point of view. But as I indicated, if you're going to submit to the Full Preterist eschatology, then you must place all the events in 70AD, and that is quite difficult to do.
Perhaps some folks feel a need for the straitjacket security of hyper-consistency and so they refuse to allow God to present eternal truths along side His prophecies that were fulfilled in 70 AD - but I'm not one of them. And besides, as I see it, Preterism does not necessitate the fulfillment of all prophecies by 70 AD. Preterism just means that the primary fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse and Revelation was in the first century Great Tribulation culminating in 70 AD. The only restriction is the fulfillment of "all these things" prophesied by Christ in the Olivet Discourse. That does not restrict the entirety of the prophecy of Revelation to only those specific events. God was doing something much grander in that Final Book of the Bible.

It seems to me that the primary meaning concerns the first century, but that there are possible overtones from the Historical and the Idealist camps. The futurists are pretty much left out in the cold. I don't see any support for their ideas at all because their entire position depends critically upon the fundamental denial of the primary fulfillment of Revelation in the first century.



It is possible as long as you teach that the 1000 years were in fact, one day. For as Peter say, a thousand years are but a day, and a day a thousand years....so the 1000 years could have been one day. If this is true, then all the events could have been fulfilled in 70AD. But then this leaves the question of the martyrs even after 70AD, and we're talking countless martyrs. The story of Perpetua leaves me in tears when I read of her account.

Let me know what you all think.

Joseph
I think it would be a hermeneutical error to impose the 1000 year/day correlation onto this issue.

Thanks for the great post Joe! I'm really enjoying this conversation, and I'm getting a lot out of it becuase you are putting a lot of valuable stuff into it! :thumb:

Richard

[Victor]

Good discussion! :thumb:


I agree about the meaning of the "camp of the saints" but I suggest that it is a constant battle as God fulfills the Lord's Prayer - "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven." The Stone smashed the feet of the image of Man's Kingdom and is now growing to fill the whole earth. The end will come when this Gospel of the Kingdom of God is preached in word and deed throughout the world.


I think you missed one. If the Thousand Years represents the Church age, then the war with Gog and Magog represents the struggle of the Church against the World. Seems pretty clear to me. That's option #5.


There is no problem if we take Option #5 since that view predicts a continued battle between the Church and the World (Gog and Magog).



Or it could be Option #5, could it not? A continued battle between the Church and the World. For indeed, "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." It is important not to confuse the true Kingdom of God with any earthly visible government - that is the primary error of Dispensationalism. Christ said "My kingdom is not of this world." The Gospel is SPIRITUAL and must be understood spiritually. The carnal mind understands none of it.


Hi Richard! I have one question. When I read Revelation 20 I get the impression that the struggle between the Church and Gog and Magog takes place after the thousand years, does it not?



Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

If the thousand years are the Church Age and the conflict of Gog and Magog with the Church takes place after this age, can it be used to describe our ongoing struggle with the world? Is that what you have in mind or did you mean something else?

Victor

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Good discussion! :thumb:



Hi Richard! I have one question. When I read Revelation 20 I get the impression that the struggle between the Church and Gog and Magog takes place after the thousand years, does it not?


If the thousand years are the Church Age and the conflict of Gog and Magog with the Church takes place after this age, can it be used to describe our ongoing struggle with the world? Is that what you have in mind or did you mean something else?

Victor

Whooops! You are absolutely correct Victor. :doh:

How'd that slip by .... <sigh>. That's what happens when I get a new idea and did't pass it by Rose.

Thanks for the good catch.

Now looking at it again ... if the 1000 years is the Church age, then the battle is still future. So now I need to review how it relates to the battle in Ezekiel 38-39. Some folks don't think they are the same ... it will take some research. I'll get back to you on that.

And to the forum... come on folks! Help us out here!

Richard

[TheForgiven]

It seems to me that you have moved form the Prerterist into the Historical camp with your interepretation of Gog and Magog as Islam. Not that there's anything wrong with that! <Seinfeld> But I think a much better and overall consistent interpetation is found in when we see the thousand years as the Church age, and the army of Gog and Magog as the "sea of unbelievers (corresponding to the Gentiles in the Jewish age). This then matches the image of "Crossing the Jordon" in the the Promised Land which is not a picture of Heaven as some have suggested (and who were disputed because of the wars in Joshua) but is, rather, a picture of the Kingdom of Heaven where we are now and have been since the Kingdom was established on earth in Jesus Christ and His Church. Thus "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."

Well, perhaps to a certain degree, but not quite as them. They believe that the RCC is the Harlot and that Rome would be revived in the future and introduce a new covenant with Israel; basically the same hocus pocus stuff the futurist's teach about Jerusalem being rebuilt. They believe a vast force will turn against the RCC, and some of them say this is Islam. For some odd reason, they act as though the RCC and Islam are good friends. :lol: That couldn't be more further from the truth. It was the two that started the Crusade wars in their battle over Israel; who would possess the land.

T
there is no problem if we take Option #5 since that view predicts a continued battle between the Church and the World (Gog and Magog).

Just to recap, option #5 you believe that the Church age is the entire 1000 years. That is what I believe, that during the 1000 years, the early church martyrs were raised to reign with Christ and rule the nations from Heaven; the abode of God's throne and paradise. But sometime in the future, or eve now with Islam, a massive army attempts to surround the camp of the Saints. My personal opinion is that Satan has been released some time ago, but I do not know of the date, and has been using Islam all these centuries in preparation for a huge war. But as the scripture says, "Fire comes down from heaven and devours them, and Satan who deceived them was throne alive into the lake of fire...." Islam is a Satanic religion full of deception and ignorance, and their primary goal is to eliminate Christianity and gain full control over geographical Israel. The fire coming down from heaven might very well be the nations attacking them.


The plural can not be used as an indicator of anything because the word chilias or chilio is always used in the plural even when denoting a singular "one thousand." For example, the number "one thousand" in the phrase "one thousand two hundred sixty" of Rev 11:3 is written in the plural.

Chilio according to Strong's concordance gives an exact defined amount of 1000. Chilias according to Strong's concordance states that this number is undetermined and does not express an exact amount. So I believe this to mean thousand(s) of years.


Or it could be Option #5, could it not? A continued battle between the Church and the World. For indeed, "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." It is important not to confuse the true Kingdom of God with any earthly visible government - that is the primary error of Dispensationalism. Christ said "My kingdom is not of this world." The Gospel is SPIRITUAL and must be understood spiritually. The carnal mind understands none of it.

Well yes, as I indicated, the entire Church age is considered "The 1000 years". My theory was after Jerusalem was destroyed, and Rome had collapsed, the Church would grow (be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth, and have dominion over all the sea creatures, and crawling things) and subdue all the earth. This is what happened in likeness within Jerusalem. When the Church had found as many of the remnant in could, they were scattered to the Gentile nations, thereby marking the end of the remnant being chosen, and they preached unto the Gentiles. Once the fullness of the Gentiles came in, the Church was now ready to take down the nations. And who was the first target? Jerusalem, having been filled with demonic spirits and false prophets providing false hope and lies. This led to the temple being infested with evil and greedy rulers. The end result was the destruction of the shadow, in order to give way to the image. The "shadow" of Jerusalem, which was a picture of what was to come, had in fact come. "Thy Kingdom come; They will be done, on earth as it is in heaven..." Christ had taken the Kingdom which was prepared, and what was formerly a shadow had become the reality. But after the shadow was removed, the Roman Empire was by no means the exception. They were next on the hit list, and eventually they too suffered the wrath of God. Many died of sickness, diseases, earth quakes, volcano eruptions, and war. The same turmoil which existed in Jerusalem began happening to the Gentile nations. What was the result? The Kingdom of God (Stone which dashed to pieces all the prior Kingdoms) had been victorious. Now the Church would endure and grow for the 1000 years. But at a predetermined time, a new attack would begin, through an army of deception, as they attempt to surround the camp of the holy saints.


I think trying to specify "who Gog and Ma-Gog may represent" is probably going well beyond the intent of the text which mentions them in one and only one verse of the NT. Personally, I feel a need to restrain my speculation on this point. So again, I think Option #5 is probably the best. But I remain open to other options.

Perhaps, but I see Islam in fact trying to surround and conquer Christianity. This doesn't mean that I'm right, but I merely state what appears to be obvious. Again, I could be wrong.


As for your designation of it as an "answer from a Partial Preterist point of view" - it seems to me to be from the "Historical" view.

To a certain degree, yes, but more Preterist in my own opinion. I believe all of the Matthew 24 account was fulfilled. I also believe 96&#37; percent of Revelation was fulfilled, and that we're living in the days (In my opinion) of Satan using his centuries built army, Islam, to attach the Church. I believe it all started in modern day Turkey, formerly Asia Minor around the 10th century.


It seems to me that the primary meaning concerns the first century, but that there are possible overtones from the Historical and the Idealist camps. The futurists are pretty much left out in the cold. I don't see any support for their ideas at all because their entire position depends critically upon the fundamental denial of the primary fulfillment of Revelation in the first century.

:thumb: I agree. The first century Christians were being warned of a persecution which was about to return, not take place, but return. The same sufferings the Christians in Jerusalem endured at the hands of Nero Caesar, was about to come upon the Gentile Churches in Asia Minor. Emperor Trajan's persecution "Where Satan had his throne" was a daily persecution, while others were but once a year [though once is too many].


I think it would be a hermeneutical error to impose the 1000 year/day correlation onto this issue.

I agree, I don't believe the 1000 years to be literal, but figurative.

In conclusion, my over-all belief (currently) is the 1000 years ended some centuries ago (unknown time frame) and we may be witnessing the final attack against the camp of God's saints. But fire [wrath from the nations] is about to rain down upon the enemies, and who knows. Perhaps we'll all see the transformation of the living and of the dead, and the GWT judgment will be upon us. Then shall the New Jerusalem [Saints of all generations which currently abide in the paradise of God] will be rewarded with a newly transformed, eternal world; the home of righteousness, IMO. [notice that I did not say the New Jerusalem would descend upon the earth in the form of a square 1,500 miles tall, wide, and long! LOL!

God bless.

;)

Out of all this, I could be wrong.

I'm open for suggestions my fellow brothers.

Joe

[dan]

Thank You everyone!!! .... and than You Richard for this forum. It has certainly been a blessing for me. Your answers and views are very much appreciated. I need all your answers and input to help me test any views I might have against what scripture is providing ... it helps me more than you know. Thanks again everyone!!!!!

[Richard Amiel McGough]

It seems to me that you have moved form the Prerterist into the Historical camp with your interepretation of Gog and Magog as Islam.
Well, perhaps to a certain degree, but not quite as them. They believe that the RCC is the Harlot and that Rome would be revived in the future and introduce a new covenant with Israel; basically the same hocus pocus stuff the futurist's teach about Jerusalem being rebuilt. They believe a vast force will turn against the RCC, and some of them say this is Islam. For some odd reason, they act as though the RCC and Islam are good friends. :lol: That couldn't be more further from the truth. It was the two that started the Crusade wars in their battle over Israel; who would possess the land.
Actually, I do believe that the traditional Historicist position is that the locusts represent Islam. A quick google brings up thousands of pages. Here are a couple interesting quotes (http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/challengeofislam_reformers.htm):

Luther wrote that the "two regimes, that of the Pope and that of the Turk, are … antichrist."
John Calvin in a sermon on Deuteronomy 18:15 maintained that Muhammad was one of "the two horns of antichrist."Note the explaination of the "two horns" as Pope + Islam. Of course, I do not believe for a moment that the Historicist position is the primary meaning, because then the Book of Revelation would have meant nothing to the first century Christians to whom it was addressed. But it could be a secondary layer of revelation - for indeed, God knew what was coming.

And a lot of folks got the idea that the RCC would merge with Islam because John Paul II really bent over backwards to appease them - to the point of kissing the Christ-denying Koran! :eek:




Chilio according to Strong's concordance gives an exact defined amount of 1000. Chilias according to Strong's concordance states that this number is undetermined and does not express an exact amount. So I believe this to mean thousand(s) of years.

Hummm ... :confused2: ... I can't find those descriptions in Strong's concordence. Here are the two entries I found relating to the Greek words for "thousand" -

#5505: χιλιας chilias {khil-ee-as'} from 5507; TDNT - 9:466,1316; n f AV - thousand 23; 23 1) a thousand, the number one thousand

#5507: χιλιοι chilioi {khil'-ee-oy} plural of uncertain affinity; TDNT - 9:466,1316; adj AV - thousand 11; 11 1) a thousand

But the exact phrase written in Rev 20 - ta chilia ete - seems to allow for your interepration because all three words, ta (the) chilia (thousands), ete (years) are plural. It seems the most literal translation would be "the thousands years" but I don't know. It seems, on the other hand, that this might just be a Greek grammar thang that really does mean "ONE thousand years." It needs more research.




Well yes, as I indicated, the entire Church age is considered "The 1000 years". My theory was after Jerusalem was destroyed, and Rome had collapsed, the Church would grow (be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth, and have dominion over all the sea creatures, and crawling things) and subdue all the earth. This is what happened in likeness within Jerusalem. When the Church had found as many of the remnant in could, they were scattered to the Gentile nations, thereby marking the end of the remnant being chosen, and they preached unto the Gentiles. Once the fullness of the Gentiles came in, the Church was now ready to take down the nations. And who was the first target? Jerusalem, having been filled with demonic spirits and false prophets providing false hope and lies. This led to the temple being infested with evil and greedy rulers. The end result was the destruction of the shadow, in order to give way to the image. The "shadow" of Jerusalem, which was a picture of what was to come, had in fact come. "Thy Kingdom come; They will be done, on earth as it is in heaven..." Christ had taken the Kingdom which was prepared, and what was formerly a shadow had become the reality. But after the shadow was removed, the Roman Empire was by no means the exception. They were next on the hit list, and eventually they too suffered the wrath of God. Many died of sickness, diseases, earth quakes, volcano eruptions, and war. The same turmoil which existed in Jerusalem began happening to the Gentile nations. What was the result? The Kingdom of God (Stone which dashed to pieces all the prior Kingdoms) had been victorious. Now the Church would endure and grow for the 1000 years. But at a predetermined time, a new attack would begin, through an army of deception, as they attempt to surround the camp of the holy saints.
Overall, that's a pretty good description. But I would not say that "the Church was now ready to take down the nations" with their target Jerusalem since it was not the "Church" that brought Judgment, but God through the Romans.




As for your designation of it as an "answer from a Partial Preterist point of view" - it seems to me to be from the "Historical" view.
To a certain degree, yes, but more Preterist in my own opinion. I believe all of the Matthew 24 account was fulfilled. I also believe 96% percent of Revelation was fulfilled, and that we're living in the days (In my opinion) of Satan using his centuries built army, Islam, to attach the Church. I believe it all started in modern day Turkey, formerly Asia Minor around the 10th century.
Your view is certainly worthy of more study. It is possible that the Gog-Magog army of decieved unbelievers is future - or at hand for that matter.



It seems to me that the primary meaning concerns the first century, but that there are possible overtones from the Historical and the Idealist camps. The futurists are pretty much left out in the cold. I don't see any support for their ideas at all because their entire position depends critically upon the fundamental denial of the primary fulfillment of Revelation in the first century.

:thumb: I agree. The first century Christians were being warned of a persecution which was about to return, not take place, but return. The same sufferings the Christians in Jerusalem endured at the hands of Nero Caesar, was about to come upon the Gentile Churches in Asia Minor. Emperor Trajan's persecution "Where Satan had his throne" was a daily persecution, while others were but once a year [though once is too many].
That is a very interesting take - If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Revelation was written as a "pseudo-prophecy" of a past event to warn the church of a future event? I can see how you could think that, especially if you believe that Rev was written in the 90s. But it is not very satisfying to me becasue of all the time markers, and other reasons.



In conclusion, my over-all belief (currently) is the 1000 years ended some centuries ago (unknown time frame) and we may be witnessing the final attack against the camp of God's saints. But fire [wrath from the nations] is about to rain down upon the enemies, and who knows. Perhaps we'll all see the transformation of the living and of the dead, and the GWT judgment will be upon us. Then shall the New Jerusalem [Saints of all generations which currently abide in the paradise of God] will be rewarded with a newly transformed, eternal world; the home of righteousness, IMO. [notice that I did not say the New Jerusalem would descend upon the earth in the form of a square 1,500 miles tall, wide, and long! LOL!

God bless.

;)

Out of all this, I could be wrong.

I'm open for suggestions my fellow brothers.

Joe
That's a good wrap up. I expect to see the Giant Cubic Jerusalem about the same time we see God with feathers (for He does cover us with His wings, ya know!). But the fulness of the New Jerusalem will come at the end when all the saints are resurrected - the time of the restitution of all things.

I love your diligent study and your humble attitude, my friend. And I stand with you in stating "I could be wrong" - as if folks didn't already know that! Ha! :lol:

Richard

[TheForgiven]

:rolleyes:
Actually, I do believe that the traditional Historicist position is that the locusts represent Islam. A quick google brings up thousands of pages. Here are a couple interesting quotes:
Luther wrote that the "two regimes, that of the Pope and that of the Turk, are … antichrist."
John Calvin in a sermon on Deuteronomy 18:15 maintained that Muhammad was one of "the two horns of antichrist."
Note the explaination of the "two horns" as Pope + Islam. Of course, I do not believe for a moment that the Historicist position is the primary meaning, because then the Book of Revelation would have meant nothing to the first century Christians to whom it was addressed. But it could be a secondary layer of revelation - for indeed, God knew what was coming.

And a lot of folks got the idea that the RCC would merge with Islam because John Paul II really bent over backwards to appease them - to the point of kissing the Christ-denying Koran!

Yea, and that's not possible because Islam didn't exist during the days of John, and he was told, "For the time is near!" This urgent command to deliver the message to the seven Churches is obvious because things were about to get very nasty.....EXTREMELY nasty!

Now "LOCUSTS" is very easy to interpret, and I can't believe so many people get it wrong. :lol: What is a locust? It's an insect which devours vegitation and crops. Too many around and your entire garden will be devoured. That's exactly what happened to Jerusalem. The Roman soldiers, when they invaded Israel, devoured all the food, crops, corn, wood, and anything they could get their hands on, for sustainment. This was going to be a very long war, so they built a wall around the entire city to contain the enemies. This led to eventual starvation and famine on the inside, while the Roman soldiers were well fed and fair on the outside [of the walls].

Thus, the Locusts were the Roman soldiers...I fail to see why futurist's and historcists even miss that. :confused2: How could Islam be the locusts? They don't devour land and crops to defeat their enemies! :rolleyes: They just blow stuff up! :lol:

It was the Romans who devoured the field in order to keep themselves fed.

I hope this helped.

Joe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

:rolleyes:

Yea, and that's not possible because Islam didn't exist during the days of John, and he was told, "For the time is near!" This urgent command to deliver the message to the seven Churches is obvious because things were about to get very nasty.....EXTREMELY nasty!

Now "LOCUSTS" is very easy to interpret, and I can't believe so many people get it wrong. :lol: What is a locust? It's an insect which devours vegitation and crops. Too many around and your entire garden will be devoured. That's exactly what happened to Jerusalem. The Roman soldiers, when they invaded Israel, devoured all the food, crops, corn, wood, and anything they could get their hands on, for sustainment. This was going to be a very long war, so they built a wall around the entire city to contain the enemies. This led to eventual starvation and famine on the inside, while the Roman soldiers were well fed and fair on the outside [of the walls].

Thus, the Locusts were the Roman soldiers...I fail to see why futurist's and historcists even miss that. :confused2: How could Islam be the locusts? They don't devour land and crops to defeat their enemies! :rolleyes: They just blow stuff up! :lol:

It was the Romans who devoured the field in order to keep themselves fed.

I hope this helped.

Joe
Excellent insight. Though you didn't mention the book of Joel, your description of the activity of locusts corresponds precisely with the description in Joel:


Joel 1:3-11 3 Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation. 4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten. 5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth. 6 For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion. 7 He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white. 8 Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth. 9 The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests, the LORD'S ministers, mourn. 10 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth. 11 Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished.

It is perfectly clear from Scripture that the locusts represent the hoardes of an invading army.

But as for Islam - they did invade like a swarm of locusts in the medieval centuries. So the Historicists seem to have some basis for their claims. But I disagree that the primary fulfillment of the locusts is Isalm because the time was near indeed.

And Josephus described how the Romans consummed everything off the land.

It is interesting Peter said Joel was being fulfilled at Pentecost. That gives precedent for the fulfillment of the locust in the first century too.

What about the description of the locusts? Roman soldiers didn't have long hair. How do you understand that?

Richard

[TheForgiven]

What about the description of the locusts? Roman soldiers didn't have long hair. How do you understand that?

Richard

That was something that used to bother me for a while. But then one day I was researching the history of the Roman Soldiers, specifically of the first century. What I found was pretty neat, though some may debate it.

They didn't have literal hair. But if you look on their helmet, what was on top? I don't know what it's called, but some had something that looked like a brush made of animal hair. Others had wolf heads / teeth attached to their helmets; these were primarily those who blew long curly trumpet. Take a look at the links below.

http://jcnot4me.com/Items/jc=zombie/roman_soldiers.htm

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/cornicen.html

Now lets read the scripture:


Revelation 9
1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them. 7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. 8 They had hair like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle. 10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months.

The underlined passages are the key context. These state:

1. Locusts have power "LIKE" scorpions; they torment for give months
2. Only those who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads were tortured.
3. They had the following characteristics [not to be taken literal]
a. Mans face with grinning teeth
b. powerful weapons that torment for up to give months
c. golden helmets
d. hair on their helmets (can't be head because the helmet would hide their hair)

I'd say these characteristic's, obviously not literal, describe the behavior or nature of the Soldiers. And to me, this sounds VERY Roman; look at the photo's on the two links I provided and it's hard to say no.

Now notice how these were told not to kill or torment anyone with the seal of God. Chapter 9, verses 1 - 12, IMO represent the time frame when the war was in the beginning stages. Titus had not yet been sent to Jerusalem, and this was the initial periods of the war. It's when the 6th trumpet is blown that the armies at the Euphrates were sent, and this would be General Titus preparing a massive assault against the Jews, in combination with their allies. Syria alone sent 5,000 troops. They were told to march towards Israel and begin attacking the outer regions until they all gathered in Jerusalem. Once there, the final 3 1/2 years of the war would be the worst famine and destruction Jerusalem has ever faced. The words of our Lord Jesus were about to be fulfilled, when He spoke of them being surrounded and encompassed with a huge wall. [Trumpets represent actual attacks. When ever Jerusalem was under attack, the watchers were to blow the trumpets].

Anyways, prior to the 6th seal, the torment was directed at the Jews who did not accept Jesus. It's my opinion also this was the time frame that the Christians in Jerusalem left. Because when the 6th trumpet is blown, the armies gathered at the Euphrates would be on their way. And what was it the Lord said?


Luke 21:20
"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

Thus begins the 6th seal all the way to chapter 11. By the time you get to chapter 11, that begins the time, times, and half of times. This will be the remaining 3 1/2 years of the war. By the time the 7th seal begins, the Mystery of God is completed. Thus ends the destruction of Jerusalem and the deaths of all those who would suffer wrath.

Chapter 13 then begins to tell the entire story all over again, but from a heavenly perspective, where as the prior chapters were from a Jewish perspective. This time, chapter 13 begins with the introduction of the birth of Christ and the rise of this massive beast that performs all the evils of the trumpets. Again, chapter 13 is from a heavenly perspective and explains the nature of the Beast, which rises from the bottomless pit.....Nero Caesar! [note: This is the reason why I said it doesn't matter if Revelation was written in 96AD because the birth of Christ happened even before 40AD, yet Revelation is revealing the outline of Christ. Additionally, the Christians in 96AD would begin to suffer at the returned Beast, Nero Returned....Emperor Domitian.

One final note. Getting back to this statement, "Do not harm the earth, grass, and the trees" and so forth, it's my opinion that this is a representation of the Church in Jerusalem. Trees represent the families or Churches, the grass represents the Christians themselves, and the earth represents Jerusalem. The Church was being given a chance to get out of there!

Joseph

[White]

Hey Richard,

Do we have any authentic Orthodox Jewish insights into Gog & Magog? By Authentic I mean, from the Orthodox Judaism point of view. One of my Jewelry manufacturers (an Orthodox Jewish Man - Ofer) stopped by yesterday. Although he is Orthodox, Ofer admires that I spend time reading the Pentateuch, the Writings etc. and of course I pulled out your book and the Biblewheel Medallion which he admired. I explained the structure and the 22 books per circle. He noticed the Hebrew Alphabet as the first circle right away, which made the Medallion a great witnessing tool.

He said that he only reads the Torah - the first 5 books of Moses, but the Rabbis talk about the battle at Gog and Magog - after the 7 years tribulation the "Messiah" will come. Of course I had to tell him that "Messiah" already came - His name is Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH - Jesus the Christ - and I gave Ofer a list of passages to read: Jeremiah 31:31-33, ISAIAH 53:1ff but I spelled out Isaiah 53:5 and explained to him, that the Rabbis changed the text and instead of "He" was pierced for our transgressions, it became "they were pierced for our transgressions", which takes the focus off the SAVIOR / MESSIAH and replaces the person with ISRAEL, the Nation. Also Isaiah 11:1-15, but especially Isaiah 11:11 etc and Ezekiel 37:22, Isaiah 49:15-16 and 49:22, and Isaiah 22:22, etc etc. among many others, even Minor Prophets such as Amos 9:11, Zechariah 9:9. Micah etc. , Ofer was very happy to receive the information, and he liked my Sukkah pictures - again that is a good witness for a Jew when an non Jew follows their customs, although it is not necessary for our salvation since we are saved by the power of the blood of the LAMB which is Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH - JESUS - the SINLESS LAMB OF GOD. Amen & Amen. For God so loved the World, that HE gave HIS only begotton SON....

Maybe somebody has some time to research the "JEWISH" thoughts on GOG and MAGOG to enlighten all of us.

And of course, I do expect the 1500 miles cube - wide, long and tall (and handsome)- to come down from Heaven and fit neatly into the United States of America, and thus All the Nations shall come and worship on our soil... Ok, I'm kidding!

Maybe we need to lighten up before SHABBAT starts -
Shabbat Shalom, - Shalom to Jerusalem and the HOLY LAND and all People
Monique



PS : I came across an article by Olive Tree Ministries, www.olivetreeviews.org, "The Islamic States of America", dating March/April 2005, and I quote : "Christian Coptic Family slain in New Jersey" - In January ('o5) the Arminious family, Coptic Christians who had fled Egypt due to religious persecution, were brutally slain in New Jersey. Have you heard about this? Hossam Arminious made the mistake of dialoguing and sharing his faith with Muslims on the Web site PalTalk. Hossam was convinced he had converted a few of them when the "converts" were really practicing "taqwiyya" meaning religious deception. When the "converts" came to visit, there was not forced entry. However, the family was found bound to chairs with duct-tape and nearly beheaded - all of them were killed. The children were 15 and 8. There had been an Internet warning that they would be "slaughtered like chickens". Hossam used an e-mail address of "I love Jesus". - Present day martyr - should become a Saint in my opinion.

Do we love Jesus? Would we have the guts to proclaim Jesus to Muslims knowing that we risk our lives doing so? We are such lukewarm Christians... and the Rapture Trap has made us weak and gutless. Let's get up and take a stand and proclaim the TRUTH which is in Jesus Christ, our LORD and SAVIOR, in season and out of season. Amen! Shalom!
PSPS : But I just sold a beautiful Diamond Ring to a Muslim - tonight - my very first ever! There is hope!

[TheForgiven]

He said that he only reads the Torah - the first 5 books of Moses, but the Rabbis talk about the battle at Gog and Magog - after the 7 years tribulation the "Messiah" will come. Of course I had to tell him that "Messiah" already came - His name is Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH - Jesus the Christ - and I gave Ofer a list of passages to read: Jeremiah 31:31-33, ISAIAH 53:1ff but I spelled out Isaiah 53:5 and explained to him, that the Rabbis changed the text and instead of "He" was pierced for our transgressions,

You hit on something that Churches rarely talk about. Our Bibles Old Testament is based off the Masoretic text which was completed in the 10th century. It's believed that these were tampered with by Jews who refused to accept Christ. The Early Church Fathers used the prophesy of Daniel to prove that Jesus was the Messiah. But the Jews condemned the Christians for using the Greek Septuagint of the Old Testament. The Greek Septuagint was developed by Hellenistic Jews some 300 years prior to Christ. The Septuagint was also the text used by the Apostles and the Early Church. This may come as a shock to you, but I learned this just a few days ago. I stated that the ECF's used the Septuagint against the Jews to prove that Jesus was the Messiah. But which passage do you think they used the most? Daniel! Here then is the reading from our current English Bibles as translated from the Masoretic text:


Daniel 9
25 “ Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. 26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

Now, read the Septuagint written about 1100 years prior to the Masoretic text:

24 Seventy weeks have been determined upon thy people, and upon the holy city, for sin to be ended, and to seal up transgressions, and to blot out the iniquities, and to make atonement for iniquities, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Most Holy.


25 And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations. 27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

Do you see the big difference? It's obvious that the Jews tampered with this text sometime around the 4rth to 6th century in order to remove any hint that Christ is the Messiah. Read the underlined portions very carefully and read the NKJV again; you'll see that the translation is far different by a great deal!

Joe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hey Richard,

Do we have any authentic Orthodox Jewish insights into Gog & Magog? By Authentic I mean, from the Orthodox Judaism point of view. One of my Jewelry manufacturers (an Orthodox Jewish Man - Ofer) stopped by yesterday. Although he is Orthodox, Ofer admires that I spend time reading the Pentateuch, the Writings etc. and of course I pulled out your book and the Biblewheel Medallion which he admired. I explained the structure and the 22 books per circle. He noticed the Hebrew Alphabet as the first circle right away, which made the Medallion a great witnessing tool.

He said that he only reads the Torah - the first 5 books of Moses, but the Rabbis talk about the battle at Gog and Magog - after the 7 years tribulation the "Messiah" will come. Of course I had to tell him that "Messiah" already came - His name is Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH - Jesus the Christ - and I gave Ofer a list of passages to read: Jeremiah 31:31-33, ISAIAH 53:1ff but I spelled out Isaiah 53:5 and explained to him, that the Rabbis changed the text and instead of "He" was pierced for our transgressions, it became "they were pierced for our transgressions", which takes the focus off the SAVIOR / MESSIAH and replaces the person with ISRAEL, the Nation. Also Isaiah 11:1-15, but especially Isaiah 11:11 etc and Ezekiel 37:22, Isaiah 49:15-16 and 49:22, and Isaiah 22:22, etc etc. among many others, even Minor Prophets such as Amos 9:11, Zechariah 9:9. Micah etc. , Ofer was very happy to receive the information, and he liked my Sukkah pictures - again that is a good witness for a Jew when an non Jew follows their customs, although it is not necessary for our salvation since we are saved by the power of the blood of the LAMB which is Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH - JESUS - the SINLESS LAMB OF GOD. Amen & Amen. For God so loved the World, that HE gave HIS only begotton SON....

Hey Monique!

Wow - it is wonderful to see the "Wheel" rolling in your skillful hands! You really have powerful set of OT passages for a witness.

I've long noticed how "the Rabbis" monkey with the text when it too obviously points to Jesus as Messiah. For example, look at how they translate Isaiah 9:6(5) in the JPS Tanakh:



TNK Isaiah 9:5 For a child has been born to us, A son has been given us. And authority has settled on his shoulders. He has been named "The Mighty God is planning grace; The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler" --


They turn His Name into a description of God the Father, when in fact it is a list of four of the Names of God the Son.


Maybe somebody has some time to research the "JEWISH" thoughts on GOG and MAGOG to enlighten all of us.




And of course, I do expect the 1500 miles cube - wide, long and tall (and handsome)- to come down from Heaven and fit neatly into the United States of America, and thus All the Nations shall come and worship on our soil... Ok, I'm kidding!
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:




Maybe we need to lighten up before SHABBAT starts -
Shabbat Shalom, - Shalom to Jerusalem and the HOLY LAND and all People
Monique

Amen to that! Time to lighten up. :hippie::tea::hippie:




PS : I came across an article by Olive Tree Ministries, www.olivetreeviews.org (http://www.olivetreeviews.org), "The Islamic States of America", dating March/April 2005, and I quote : "Christian Coptic Family slain in New Jersey" - In January ('o5) the Arminious family, Coptic Christians who had fled Egypt due to religious persecution, were brutally slain in New Jersey. Have you heard about this? Hossam Arminious made the mistake of dialoguing and sharing his faith with Muslims on the Web site PalTalk. Hossam was convinced he had converted a few of them when the "converts" were really practicing "taqwiyya" meaning religious deception. When the "converts" came to visit, there was not forced entry. However, the family was found bound to chairs with duct-tape and nearly beheaded - all of them were killed. The children were 15 and 8. There had been an Internet warning that they would be "slaughtered like chickens". Hossam used an e-mail address of "I love Jesus". - Present day martyr - should become a Saint in my opinion.
We should post the full story in the Current Events section.

But hey ... I thought you said we were supposed to lighten up :confused2: That's one heavy story, sister.



Do we love Jesus? Would we have the guts to proclaim Jesus to Muslims knowing that we risk our lives doing so? We are such lukewarm Christians... and the Rapture Trap has made us weak and gutless. Let's get up and take a stand and proclaim the TRUTH which is in Jesus Christ, our LORD and SAVIOR, in season and out of season. Amen! Shalom!
PSPS : But I just sold a beautiful Diamond Ring to a Muslim - tonight - my very first ever! There is hope!
Now there is a sentence worth repeating: "the Rapture Trap has made us weak and gutless." Well said! :thumb:

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Now, read the Septuagint written about 1100 years prior to the Masoretic text:


25 And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations.27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end (συντελειας) of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

Do you see the big difference? It's obvious that the Jews tampered with this text sometime around the 4rth to 6th century in order to remove any hint that Christ is the Messiah. Read the underlined portions very carefully and read the NKJV again; you'll see that the translation is far different by a great deal!

Joe
Wow - that is a very enlightening translation. I added the red highlight to the words "the end" because in the Greek it is συντελειας (sunteleias) which is the exact word (letter-for-letter) that we find in the Olivet Discourse (Matt 24:3):


KJV Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end (sunteleias) of the age?

It also fixes the bad translation that leads the futurist to replace Christ with the antichrist:



the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he [the annointed one] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming

Thus we see that Christ used Titus to destroy the city. Amazing!

You and Monique have touched upon a VERY important point Joe. We often forget that Jews and Christians have been arguing about those texts for a long long time, and its not past anybody to "fix" them if they don't quite say what they "should" say. This became a big deal even in the 2nd century with the LXX. Look at this snippet from Justin's Dialogue with Trypho (http://www.bombaxo.com/trypho.html):



Dialogue with Trypho: 68:7 "If, then," I continued, "I establish the fact that this prophecy of Isaiah speaks of our Christ and not Hezekiah, as you claim, will you not be obliged to doubt your teachers who dare to assert that the translation [of the Scriptures] made by your seventy elders at the court of the Egyptian King Ptolemy is inaccurate in some places? [8] For, whenever there arises in the Scriptures an evident contradiction of their silly and conceited doctrine, your teachers boldly affirm that it was not so written in the original text. And they conspire to distort other statements, harmonizing them with human actions and claiming that they have been spoken not of this our Jesus Christ, but of him of whom they attempt to interpret them.


In an effort to win disputes with Christians, the Jews first attempted a new translation of the LXX (by Aquila IIRC) and then finally rejected the LXX altogether.

Thanks to you and Monique for brining up this point. Who knows how many issues have been muddied by scribal changes to the texts? Of course, the Jewish tradition kept a pretty tight lid on changing the text, so I do believe we can be pretty confident of the "lion's share" of Scripture, but we must remember to test all things.

Richard

[TheForgiven]

Wow - that is a very enlightening translation. I added the red highlight to the words "the end" because in the Greek it is συντελειας (sunteleias) which is the exact word (letter-for-letter) that we find in the Olivet Discourse (Matt 24:3):

Amen to that! :thumb: Futurists read this passage and anytime they see the word "END" they automatically refer to Peter's passage:


2 Peter 3:
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Ironically, I don't believe Peter was talking about the "WORLD" burning up, but the Old Testament figure of Heaven and Earth, which according to Isaiah chapter 1, was Jerusalem:


Isaiah 1:
1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
The Wickedness of Judah
2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth!
For the LORD has spoken:

“ I have nourished and brought up children,
And they have rebelled against Me;
3 The ox knows its owner
And the donkey its master’s crib;
But Israel does not know,
My people do not consider.”

Heaven and Earth are phrases describing the relationship between heaven and earth; heaven being God's throne, and earth being Jerusalem. Thus, the New Heaven and New Earth is the Throne of God and the Church; the Church being the New Jerusalem.



KJV Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end (sunteleias) of the age?

It also fixes the bad translation that leads the futurist to replace Christ with the antichrist:

EXACTLY! :woohoo: That was why I was being sanctioned in the Christianity.com forum that I spoke to you about. They insisted that the word "He" in Daniel who establishes a covenant with many during the week, refers to some science fictional belief of Jerusalem's temple being rebuilt and a mysterious AC, who reigns for the last 7 years of mans time on earth, sets up an image of himself and forces all to bow down to it, forces man to receive a chip implantation in order to participate in the a New World Order economy, and many other Hocus Pocus nonsense! :Date_Setting:

But then how do they explain what Peter stated, regarding the end of all things? :confused2:


1 Peter 4:7
The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray.

Their answer for this is using God's undetermined time. :lol: So Peter was NOT speaking from a personal stand-point but [to them] he was speaking prophesy. And I guess Paul was doing the same thing when he said:


Romans 13:11
And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

I guess Paul's original prophesy was incorrect, and he had to correct Himself regarding this time statement.

How long will it take for Futurist's to read and understand? How many false predictions will it take before Jack Vanampee (spelling) and John Hagaee, or even Rob Parsley to come to the truth and stop resorting to fictional myths? I'll never understand these people. I was a Futurist's, but turning from that doctrine was not that difficult for me? Why should it be them?

Joe

[dan]

I have one more bit of information and am not sure if it applies or not...

With the Gog and Magog puzzle and with some of you bringing up the Septuagint...maybe we need to consider what Amos 7:1 says in the Septuagint???

7:1 Thus has the Lord God shewed me; and, behold, a swarm of locusts coming from the east; and, behold, one caterpillar, king Gog. 2 And it came to pass when he had finished devouring the grass of the land, that I said, Lord God, be merciful; who shall raise up Jacob? for he is small in number. 3 Repent, O Lord, for this. And this shall not be, saith the Lord.


dan

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Amen to that! :thumb: Futurists read this passage and anytime they see the word "END" they automatically refer to Peter's passage:


2 Peter 3:
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Ironically, I don't believe Peter was talking about the "WORLD" burning up, but the Old Testament figure of Heaven and Earth, which according to Isaiah chapter 1, was Jerusalem:


Isaiah 1:
1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
The Wickedness of Judah
2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth!
For the LORD has spoken:

Heaven and Earth are phrases describing the relationship between heaven and earth; heaven being God's throne, and earth being Jerusalem. Thus, the New Heaven and New Earth is the Throne of God and the Church; the Church being the New Jerusalem.
AMEN! The ELEMENTS Peter said would be "burned up" are the STOICHEIA which are used in Scripture to speak of the elementary teachings of either the LAW or the GOSPEL. The change from the Old to the New Covenant is therefore aptly described as "burning up" the old way - which could be the "end of the world" that Christ said would mark the end of the Law when ALL WAS FULFILLED IN HIM - which is, of course, the fundamental message of the Gospel. Christ our all in all. All Scripture is about Him, and all Scripture is ultimately fulfilled in Him.

Of course, I am not saying that this is the only possible interepretation or even the most likely one, but it is a possibility that must be considered given the biblical meaning of STOICHEIA. But on the other hand, most Christians, from the very earliest times, have probably understood Peter as speaking of a literal "burning up" of the literal physical world, so we should not treat that view lightly. In any case, it definitely needs futher investigation.




It also fixes the bad translation that leads the futurist to replace Christ with the antichrist:

EXACTLY! :woohoo: That was why I was being sanctioned in the Christianity.com forum that I spoke to you about. They insisted that the word "He" in Daniel who establishes a covenant with many during the week, refers to some science fictional belief of Jerusalem's temple being rebuilt and a mysterious AC, who reigns for the last 7 years of mans time on earth, sets up an image of himself and forces all to bow down to it, forces man to receive a chip implantation in order to participate in the a New World Order economy, and many other Hocus Pocus nonsense! :Date_Setting:


I feel for ya bro! It is SO VERY FRUSTRATING when folks are so insecure in their beliefs that they won't even allow alternate points of view to be posted! I'm really glad you found this forum. You're contributions are very valuable.



But then how do they explain what Peter stated, regarding the end of all things? :confused2:


1 Peter 4:7The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray.

Their answer for this is using God's undetermined time. :lol: So Peter was NOT speaking from a personal stand-point but [to them] he was speaking prophesy. And I guess Paul was doing the same thing when he said:


Romans 13:11
And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

I guess Paul's original prophesy was incorrect, and he had to correct Himself regarding this time statement.

How long will it take for Futurist's to read and understand? How many false predictions will it take before Jack Vanampee (spelling) and John Hagaee, or even Rob Parsley to come to the truth and stop resorting to fictional myths? I'll never understand these people. I was a Futurist's, but turning from that doctrine was not that difficult for me? Why should it be them?

Joe
Ha! :lol: "God's undertermined time?" What a joke! The simple truth is that the entire New Testament unequivocally proclaims a first century fulfillment of all things. All we gotta do is read what they wrote!


Matthew 24:34 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Luke 21:32-33 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
1 Corinthians 10:11 ... they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
James 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time [lit. hour]: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time [lit. hour].
Revelation 1:1-3 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: ... 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I have one more bit of information and am not sure if it applies or not...

With the Gog and Magog puzzle and with some of you bringing up the Septuagint...maybe we need to consider what Amos 7:1 says in the Septuagint???

7:1 Thus has the Lord God shewed me; and, behold, a swarm of locusts coming from the east; and, behold, one caterpillar, king Gog. 2 And it came to pass when he had finished devouring the grass of the land, that I said, Lord God, be merciful; who shall raise up Jacob? for he is small in number. 3 Repent, O Lord, for this. And this shall not be, saith the Lord.

dan
Thanks Dan, that looks like an important insight. They may have made a connection from the fact that the word "locust" in Hebrew is similar to Gog:

Strongs #1462:
גוב gowb {gobe} from 01461; TWOT - 304b; n m coll AV - grasshopper 2; 2 1) locusts

Indeed, Gog follows gob in Strong's dictionary:

Strongs # 1463:
גוג Gowg {gohg} of uncertain derivation; TWOT - 324; n pr m AV - Gog 10; 10 Gog = "mountain" 1) a Reubenite, son of Shemaiah 2) the prophetic prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal, and Magog

Its easy to see how the Bet in gob could be misread for the final Gimel in Gog, and how the ancient Jews, who were taught wordplay by God in Scripture, would be sensative to the connection between these two words, especially since Gog represents the swarming Gentile armies. They may have developed a tradition on this.

The symbolic meaning of Gimel is "to lift up" especially in pride. This links to the word "gag" means rooftop. Its spelt like Gog without the medial Vav.

This requires further research.

Richard

[TheForgiven]

That is very interesting when you bring up the words which describe Gog. Perhaps Full Preterist are correct when they say that the 1000 years was completed in 70AD. I still have a hard time accepting that, but here's the two theories I've heard from the Full Preterist position:

1. The 1000 years represented the time of David's throne to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
2. The 1000 years was symbolic for the 40 years, from Christ's crucifixion to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

There may be others but that's the main two I've heard them say.

If I were to choose between the two (assuming there are no others), I'd probably choose option #1. However, the problem with forcing this interpretation is you still have to deal with the Martyrs who were killed during the reign of Nero Caesar. Of course, this did happen prior to 70AD, but the scripture says that they came to life and reigned with Christ for the 1000 years; the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were completed. [additional note: Christ reigns eternally so the limitation was not on Christ, or even the Martyrs, but the reign itself represented the Church growth and expansion].

Here's my theory. Jesus promised some of the early Church Martyrs that if they overcame, they would be given authority over the nations.

Question: Is it possible that they are in fact reigning in the heavens with each assigned to certain geographical Continent or Nation? :dontknow: Just curious about your response to this.

Joe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

That is very interesting when you bring up the words which describe Gog. Perhaps Full Preterist are correct when they say that the 1000 years was completed in 70AD. I still have a hard time accepting that, but here's the two theories I've heard from the Full Preterist position:

1. The 1000 years represented the time of David's throne to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
2. The 1000 years was symbolic for the 40 years, from Christ's crucifixion to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

There may be others but that's the main two I've heard them say.

If I were to choose between the two (assuming there are no others), I'd probably choose option #1. However, the problem with forcing this interpretation is you still have to deal with the Martyrs who were killed during the reign of Nero Caesar. Of course, this did happen prior to 70AD, but the scripture says that they came to life and reigned with Christ for the 1000 years; the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were completed. [additional note: Christ reigns eternally so the limitation was not on Christ, or even the Martyrs, but the reign itself represented the Church growth and expansion].

Here's my theory. Jesus promised some of the early Church Martyrs that if they overcame, they would be given authority over the nations.

Question: Is it possible that they are in fact reigning in the heavens with each assigned to certain geographical Continent or Nation? :dontknow: Just curious about your response to this.

Joe
The idea of the 1000 years fulfilled in 70 AD doesn't ring any bells with me. Is there a problem with it representing the Church age? I have never heard of any problem with that view. It makes sense to me. Note also that Rev 20:4 does not say that Christ is reigning on earth, so the verse doesn't actually support a future millinnium no matter how "literally" someone may want to interpret the verse.

As for what John really meant when he said the SOULS of the martyrs reign with Christ in heaven for a thousand years, I do not know.

Richard

[TheForgiven]

The idea of the 1000 years fulfilled in 70 AD doesn't ring any bells with me. Is there a problem with it representing the Church age? I have never heard of any problem with that view. It makes sense to me. Note also that Rev 20:4 does not say that Christ is reigning on earth, so the verse doesn't actually support a future millinnium no matter how "literally" someone may want to interpret the verse.

As for what John really meant when he said the SOULS of the martyrs reign with Christ in heaven for a thousand years, I do not know.

Richard

I tend to a agree. I was merely wondering if you studied must of the Full Preterist position. They tend to view the battle of God as the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem and destroying it. But that didn't make sense to me because the scripture also says that Satan is bound during the 1000 years; we know he wasn't bound prior to Christ. Additionally, I don't view Satan's binding as him being locked away in prison, but that he has no power or authority over the nations; at least until the 1000 years are ended after his binding is released.

So in short, I agree with you, that the 1000 years represents the reign of Christ and His Church, and I believe the 1000 years is also the time-frame in populating the earth with the Church. When the Church is completed, then shall Satan go out to deceive the nations outside of the Church and attempt to over-whelm the city He loves. Of course, Futurist still view the beloved city as Israel of sand, dirt and rock.

Thanks for the input Richard. :thumb:

Joe

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

I'm wondering if Richard or Joe [or others] have any newer thoughts.


38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

A few notes;
Many apply this 'my people Israel' as referring to national Israel; but in studying the mosaic covenant, it is shown that the national covenant is a temporal covenant with an end and 'latter end' administered by the New Prophet [Jesus]. There is also a entity called the house of Israel and Judah which I gather from Jeremiah 31 refers primarily to the time from the end of the babylonian captivity to the 'latter end'. The house of Israel can also refer to those of both, the covenant of Mercy and the national covenant which compose the 'house' of Israel even before the babylonian captivity. I haven't made a study on it.

But 'my people' Israel in this section and from the prior chapter can also and seem to me to be refer to the [remnant?] believing spiritual seed like jacob who was 'reborn' and given a walk with God.




15The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

After reading Barnabus whenever I see references to Ephraim such as in Hosea 11 and Jer 31, I understand that they are references to the people of the 'latter' son of blessing to all peoples through justification by faith; not the people of the conditional mosaic covenant blesssings. This is the same symbolism as the blessing given to Isaac and then to Jacob [and I think Abraham, not Nimrod] Paul confirms and describes these blessing as symbolism that refer to the people of the New Jerusalem of the heart in Gal 4. and of the New Prophet [Jesus]

21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: [from the babylonian captivity]
22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, {see Isaiah 66} nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

This talks of a time of not sacrificing to Idols and [I believe] of not sacrificing to the mosaic covenant either. Here we have the phrase 'my people' in chapter 37. By contrast, Daniel in chapter 9:23 or 24 calls the people of the mosaic covneant "THY people'. For they continue up to John and for the sake of the happenings of the 490 yrs, they continue through the rejection of the apostles message. For the sake of the effects of the new covenant on that generation and the patience in removing the mosaic covenant; thy people of the national covenant continued through 70 ad.

24And David my servant [Jesus] shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: [Jesus; the Holy Spirit] they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: [see Heb 13;30] and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

To me the covenant of Peace refers to the individually fulfilled "New Covenant'.

27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, [Jesus and those who believe in HIM] when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

I am leaning towards understanding Gog and Magog as something to do with the nations of the Roman empire or from Pharisaic Judaism which became like babylon. OR BOTH. Perhaps Magog is the Roman empire and Gog is the Ceasars... or Magog includes the Roman empire AND Talmudic judaism's alliance.

The 1000 yrs of Rev could be what seems like 1000 yrs or a lifetime during the intercovenantal age between 30 AD and 70 AD. It could also or additionally have reference to the 3 1/2 yrs of intense persecution by Nero. This would also have seemed like a lifetime to those enduring it. Both concepts might even be represented in the latter chapters of Revelation.

Isaiah 66 towards the end of the chapter talks about some of the nations coming up to see the sanctification of his work. These include at least two of the same names that are referred to in Ez 38, Tarshish and Tubal.

Since most of us who understand the fulfilled perspectives would believe/know that Isaiah 66 is referring to the intercovenantal period of Jesus day up through the revealing of the 'new heavens' and 'new earth' of the New, Everlasting Covenant and the new domiain of the new New 'man' through the fulfillment of the forgiveness and indewelling of the Creator, we would apply these names of nations to that time period also. The birth of the man-child from the mothering though contrasting mosaic covenant is referring to the excape of the believers from Judea and the birth of the international 'nation'.

This helps confirm the first century fulfillment of EZ 37-39 and within the 'latter days' of the mosaic covenant as stated in 38:16.

Is there any connection between Gog and nimrod from the post flood era?

What was the exact date or time period of Ezekiels prophetic ministry?

Here is another thread (http://goldismoney2.com/showthread.php?12557-Joel-Rosenberg-the-new-Hal-Lindsey-and-Tim-Lahaye&p=147532#post147532)where EZ 38,39 is being referred to.

Here is a statement I made in that discussion.


Prophecies given to the temporal mosaic covenant national entity or it's extended house had to be fulfilled during the time of that temporal nation/house OR fulfilled in the 'all peoples' (Gen 12:3) of the everlasting covenant which, both preceded the national covenant and was born out of the latter house of the national entity during the first centrury fulfilment of the eternal covenant (Heb 13:30) and the latter end of the mosaic covenant nation/house.

In the scriptures there are differences between;

a.) the individual spiritual man renamed Israel who's changed life characterized some aspects of the new birth of the covenant of Mercy;

b.) the temporary entity of the corporal national covenant called national "Israel" of the Book of Deuteronomy (Deut 5:1-3; 27:9)

c.) the post babylon captivity "Houses" of Israel and Judah based in Deut 30-32. With the ark removed; it was made finally desolate and fruitless by God/Christ just before his Passion.

d.) and the continued spiritual seed like the individual Jacob/Israel of all nations; who won the name of 'son of God'. [John 1:12,13] These are referred to at times as the 'seed' of Israel; 'my people Israel, 'seed' of God; 'children of God; and other descriptive names.

Take care all, I'll check in later.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I'm wondering if Richard or Joe [or others] have any newer thoughts.

A few notes;
Many apply this 'my people Israel' as referring to national Israel; but in studying the mosaic covenant, it is shown that the national covenant is a temporal covenant with an end and 'latter end' administered by the New Prophet [Jesus]. There is also a entity called the house of Israel and Judah which I gather from Jeremiah 31 refers primarily to the time from the end of the babylonian captivity to the 'latter end'. The house of Israel can also refer to those of both, the covenant of Mercy and the national covenant which compose the 'house' of Israel even before the babylonian captivity. I haven't made a study on it.

But 'my people' Israel in this section and from the prior chapter can also and seem to me to be refer to the [remnant?] believing spiritual seed like jacob who was 'reborn' and given a walk with God.



Hey there ETD32,

I think it is very wise to begin with Ezekiel 37 before jumping into the very enigmatic 38th and 39th chapters. Here is how I annotated that chapter in a post (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5869#post5869) over three years ago. It is all prophetic of Pentecost and the Church:

Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. 4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. 11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you [PENTECOST!], and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. 15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, 16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. 18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? 19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. 20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. 21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: [PENTECOST! Jews came from "every nation under heaven" ...] 22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king [CHRIST] shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: 23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them [THE GOSPEL!]: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. [FULFILLED IN THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH, 2 COR 6:16] 24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd [CHRIST]: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever [CHRIST]. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them [THE NEW COVENANT]: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. [FULFILLED IN THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH, the NEW JERUSALEM] 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
Likewise, we should look at the chapters that follow, which I think are also to be understood as prophetic of the "Church age" - aka, the Messianic age we are currently living in.

So sandwiched between a prophecy of Pentecost and the Messianic Age, we have Ezekiel 38-39. Therefore, I'm pretty sure that it is speaking symbolically of the events of the "last days" of the Jewish economy that culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD.



I am leaning towards understanding Gog and Magog as something to do with the nations of the Roman empire or from Pharisaic Judaism which became like babylon. OR BOTH. Perhaps Magog is the Roman empire and Gog is the Ceasars... or Magog includes the Roman empire AND Talmudic judaism's alliance.

And this is why I don't have much interest at all in trying to figure out what Gog and Magog represent. There's just too much speculation. No one knows the answer, so why bother?

The tension caused by the "intercovenantal period" is the most difficult to state clearly. Was the Temple desolated when Christ was crucified or when the Romans destroyed it? Or both? What was the status of the Old Covenant during that period? When did the sacrifices cease? When was Satan bound. Etc., etc., etc., ... a ministry of questions.



The 1000 yrs of Rev could be what seems like 1000 yrs or a lifetime during the intercovenantal age between 30 AD and 70 AD. It could also or additionally have reference to the 3 1/2 yrs of intense persecution by Nero. This would also have seemed like a lifetime to those enduring it. Both concepts might even be represented in the latter chapters of Revelation.


Yes, I've leaned in that direction, mostly because it makes the most sense out of Scripture. But again, I have no real confidence that Scripture makes it sufficiently clear for anyone ever to have any certainty. That's why futurists camp on these verses. They have to create the doctrines out of the ambiguous passages because the plain and literal passages are clearly Preterist.



Is there any connection between Gog and nimrod from the post flood era?

I can't imagine any solid connection because Nimrod is almost entirely unknown in Scripture. I really don't like speculating about things with so little information. A high view of Scripture would suggest that if God did not bother revealing clear information on this, we should probably spend our time elsewhere. We don't want to minister questions.

Of course, we also don't want to refrain from studying Scripture just because it seem to ambiguous at first. But one once we have looked over the possible meanings, I quickly lose interest if there is no sure answer in sight.



What was the exact date or time period of Ezekiels prophetic ministry?

I seem to recall he prophesied during the Babylonian exile. I think he started right before it began.

All the best,

Richard

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

And this is why I don't have much interest at all in trying to figure out what Gog and Magog represent. There's just too much speculation. No one knows the answer, so why bother?

The tension caused by the "intercovenantal period" is the most difficult to state clearly. Was the Temple desolated when Christ was crucified or when the Romans destroyed it? Or both? What was the status of the Old Covenant during that period? When did the sacrifices cease? When was Satan bound. Etc., etc., etc., ... a ministry of questions.

Yes, I've leaned in that direction, mostly because it makes the most sense out of Scripture. But again, I have no real confidence that Scripture makes it sufficiently clear for anyone ever to have any certainty. That's why futurists camp on these verses. They have to create the doctrines out of the ambiguous passages because the plain and literal passages are clearly Preterist.
Agreed; the time context of the passage as well as in Isaiah 66 is preterist of the first century . But since the identification of the people and countries mentioned are possibly symbolic or descendentary or gentile nations; and since they are uncertain, it gives futurists a speculative loophole to launch from. For this reason, I think it's important that we reinforce the first century time indicators as you have done and as I have done.


I can't imagine any solid connection because Nimrod is almost entirely unknown in Scripture.

I Chronicles mentions Magog; Tubal and Cush and one or two others of these nations or peoples mentioned. Nimrod is in the same context. But I don't think the mention of Magog, etc are for the reason I was thinking they were...[that being that they were part of babylonian religious system]. It seems they are mentioned as people of the non-Israel nations... at that time but who still had connection to the salvation of the individual New Beginning of the 8th day typed by Noah although not experienced or realized knowledge of it.

As in Isaiah 66, it seems that the nations are to come to see the effects and end of the national/conditional covenant and it's latter end. They were 'god's people' for a time and a very specific purpose, but now [again] God's blessing, freedom and mercy is poured out to all peoples of faith in the Creator/redeemer.

On another forum, there was a discussion about Isaiah 66 and the one preterist poster had most of the nations or people identified.

I'll watch for further responses.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

It would seem then that the 'land' of 38:25 would be referring to the domain [land] of the new covenant which is the body [temple] of the Spirit of Indwelling fullness of God.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

It would seem then that the 'land' of 38:25 would be referring to the domain [land] of the new covenant which is the body [temple] of the Spirit of Indwelling fullness of God.
Yes ... that makes some sense. It's really a very difficult passage to interpret. The futurists do no better ... they just claim it "will" happen "as written" which doesn't prove anything at all.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Hebrews 11 might add something to the understanding of the new covenant 'land'.


8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Hebrews 11 might add something to the understanding of the new covenant 'land'.


13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Been thinking on this a little:

Where did Abraham and Sara come out of that they might have had an opportunity to return?

Could this be speaking spiritually or allegorically of Eden/Syria/UR?

Could this be saying that they could have Spiritually returned to "eden" and the new land of the indwelling Spirit through being justified by faith?

Could the word 'country' have a similar usage as 'kingdom' with ordinances, domain and political ramifications?

Would 'the city' be referring to the 'city' without walls?

Some rhetorical aspects in the questions for contemplation.

[Brother Les]

Quote:
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Been thinking on this a little:



Been thinking on this a little:

Where did Abraham and Sara come out of that they might have had an opportunity to return?

Could this be speaking spiritually or allegorically of Eden/Syria/UR?

Could this be saying that they could have Spiritually returned to "eden" and the new land of the indwelling Spirit through being justified by faith?

Could the word 'country' have a similar usage as 'kingdom' with ordinances, domain and political ramifications?

Would 'the city' be referring to the 'city' without walls?

Some rhetorical aspects in the questions for contemplation.

13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.


They died in the physical land, ie. they left that physicl land and they could not return to it.

[speakzeasy]

I thought That I would toss a quarter into the subject. It does [not] agree with views of the other post. However, is the same topic/subject.

The presentation is done in the same manner in which I have done the research for each subject (this differs with each project). It is easier for me track what has been done. I am not trying to confuse the reader. So hope the method is not confusing to someone else.

(Note that the code that should make the "b" bold does not. The verses are in italics. Also the notes for each verse are directly after the associated verse.)

1 AND the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face against [a]Gog, in the [b]land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

a. The name "Gog" appears to be generic name applied to the people or persons among Arabs/Muslims. It should be noted that Magog is a "land" were these people live. It is not "Gog and Magog". Gog is defined as being over a people. This becomes evident when Gog is described has being "the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal".
b. Muslim countries from Northeast Africa to Southeastern Russia, and from the Balkins to Pakistan.

This region may include, but not limited to, Libya, Egypt, Jordan, Syria Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India.

If Ezekiel 38:8 and 12 is followed through in practice, this will include the most of the 22 member states of the League of Arab States. 'Member countries are Egypt, Sudan, Algeria, Morocco, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, Tunisia, Somalia, Libya, Jordan, United Arab Emirates, Lebanon, Mauritania, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Djibouti, Bahrain, and Comoros, as well as 'Palestine', which is not legally recognized as a country. Observers are Venezuela, Brazil, Eritrea, and India.

'As of 2007, the Arab League is believed to represent countries with a total population of approximately 340 million people, at least 88% of whom are Muslim.'

3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
4 And I will [a]turn thee [b]back, and [c]put [d]hooks [e]into thy [f]jaws, and I will [g]bring thee [h]forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

a. To reverse (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).
b. Towards times or things past (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).

This is return to the hostility that the Arab/Muslim people fill toward the existence of the state of Israel as we understand it today.

When reading Ezekiel 38:11 it appears that the invasion will occur while an Israeli population is still living in the "Seam Zone" with it intact along the western side of the West Bank at the time of the invasion.
c. To cause (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).
d. To draw by force or artifice. (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).
e. Noting the passing of a thing from one form or state to another (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).
f. In vulgar language, scolding, wrangling, abusive clamor (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).
g. To cause somebody/something to be in a particular condition or place (Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary).
h. Out into public view, or public character (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).

5 Persia, [a]Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

a. "Ethiopia, and Libya".

It should be noted that Egypt is missing from the list found in Ezekiel 38:2-3, 5-6. Egypt has had diplomatic ties (or has been at peace) with Israel since March 26, 1979 and apparently is not considered by this prophecy of Ezekiel's to be part of the peace arrangement that takes place before the invasion Arab/Muslim people. However, Egypt is one of twenty two members of the Arab League (founded March 22, 1945 in Cairo). Libya and Sudan are members of the Arab League as well.

Having not mentioned Egypt as part of this prophecy places the occurrence of this event sometime after 1979. It will be interesting to see how Libya and Ethiopia (the old Cushite Kingdom that is now southern Egypt and northern Sudan?) get to Israel without taking Egypt with them. Ezekiel also states that the invasion into Israel would be from the North parts (Ezek. 38:15).

Ethiopia and Libya are south and west south west of Israel. It then appears that the initial invading force is from the north of Israel through Lebanon. Chapter 38 of Ezekiel's prophecy represents the beginning of the invasion into Iraq and Israel, not its entirety.

6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.
7 Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.
8 ¶ [a]After [b]many [c]days thou shalt be [d]visited: in the [e]latter years thou shalt come into the [f]land that is [g]brought [h]back [i]from the [j]sword, and is [k]gathered lout of the [m]many [n]people [o]against the [p]mountains of [q]Israel, which have been [r]always swaste: but it is [t]brought [u]forth lout of the [v]nations, and [w]they shall [x]dwell safely all of [w]them.

a. Later in time (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).
b. A multitude (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).
c. Time with reference to the existence of a thing (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).

An event that takes place in relationship to a subsequent peace arrangement between Israel and the Arab/Muslim states/countries. The number of days during this time frame shouldn't be confused with weeks or months. It is more then likely an odd number of days that do not equal a number of weeks or months.
d. To call upon (Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, 1913).
e. Far advanced toward the end or close (Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, 1913).
f. A nation or people (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).
g. Brought (pret. and ppr. of bring; pronounced braut. [See Bring.]) - Bring: To restore. (Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, 1913).
h. To a former state, condition, or station (Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, 1913).
i. Original Condition: used to say what condition or situation something is in before it changes (Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English).
j. The military power of a country (Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, 1913).

The "land that is brought back from the sword" is Iraq after the March 2003 U.S. invasion. It started with the "Troop Surge" that United States President George W. Bush announced January 10, 2007.
k. To bring into one body (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).
l. "Out of" – Come From Something (Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English).
m. Numerous; comprising a great number of individuals (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).
n. The body of persons who compose a community, tribe, nation, or race; an aggregate of individuals forming a whole; a community; a nation (Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, 1913).

The subject relating to being "gathered out of many people" are about the two primary groups of that have a common religous belief, namely of the Islamic religous faith. These are Shiite and Sunni (Kurds are Sunni) which make up the majority of the sects of Islam, and in Iraq.
o. In opposition, noting adversity. (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).
p. A large mass of earth and rock, rising above the common level of the earth or adjacent land, but of no definite altitude (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).

The "mountains of Israel" represents the area that in the Bible is referred to as Judea and Samaria, and what we now call the West Bank.
q. A country on the eastern side of the Mediterranean Sea, surrounded by Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon. Population: 5,938,000 (2001) (Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English).

The people "against the mountains of Israel" is a reference to the Arabs/Muslims that are against the Israeli policy of building a "Security Fence" and Settlements along the west side of the West Bank (known as the 'Seam Zone'). West Bank settlements have been ongoing since the 1967 "Six Day War". The Security Fence was begun on June 15, 2002 near the northern West Bank community/town of Jenin.
r. Continually (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).
s. The act of squandering; the dissipation of property through wantonness, ambition, extravagance, luxury or negligence (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).
t. Brought, pret. and ppr. of bring; pronounced braut. [See Bring.] (Webster's 1828 Dictionary)

Bring: to cause someone or something to be in a particular situation (Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English).
u. Forward; onward in time (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).
v. A group of countries united under a central government.

The occurrence of 'brought forth out of the nations' was when United Nations Security Council Resolution 1546 was adopted by the Security Council at its 4987th meeting on June 8, 2004; The country of Iraq was given sovereignty. (See also Dan. 11:27; Rev. 13:3)
w. The people of Iraq.
x. "dwell safely" – To be in agreement.

Iraqi Parliament Approves New Maliki Government – December 21, 2010.

(Note that this is an on going (current) story. It appears the Kurdish Region, the peoples demaned for services and a census among other things need to be resolved.)

9 [a]Thou shalt [b]ascend and [c]come like a [d]storm, [a]thou shalt be like a [e]cloud to [f]cover the [g]land, [a]thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.

a. Arab/Muslem people.
b. To rise, in a figurative sense (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).
c. To advance and arrive at some state or condition (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).
d. Violence; vehemence; tumultuous force (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).
e. A great multitude (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).
f. To overwhelm (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).
g. The inhabitants of a country or region (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).

10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the [a]same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an [b]evil thought:

a. To happen together.

This is a spontaneous invasion by the Arab/Muslim population that is trigged by an event that occurs south of Baghdad. This cannot be invasion organized by a government. The International community would resist a military campaign through the Middle East as it does regarding Iran at this time . The invasion into the state Israel must be done by a population that is close enough that there can be no warning.
b. Something that brings sorrow, distress, or calamity (Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English).

11 And [a]thou shalt say, I will go up to the [b]land of unwalled villages; [a]I will go to [c]them that are at [d]rest, that [e]dwell safely, all of [f]them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

a. Arab/Muslem people.
b. "land of unwalled villages"

The area spoken of here is the area of the West Bank that is called the "Seam Zone". It is the area that Israel has created by placing a "Security Barrier", construction began about June 15, 2002 in the northern region of the West Bank. Israel has established large settlements between the Security Barrier and the "Green Line."

The Green Line is a boundary created by an armistice agreement that was signed by Israel and Jordan on April 3, 1949. The Security Barrier runs along the west side of the West Bank. The Seam Zone is the west side of the Security Barrier along the border of Israel and the Armistice (Green) line. It is also known as the Israeli side or the wrong side (of the barrier), if you are Palestinian.
c. The people in the state of Israel, including the settlers in the Seam Zone between the Security Barrier and the Green line create by the Armistice Agreement between Israel and Jordan on April 3, 1949.
d. Peace; national quiet (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).

This relates to a resolution to the Iran Nuclear situation. It still needs to be worked out.
e. "dwell safely" – To be in agreement.
f. "all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates'

The people in the state of Israel, including the settlers in the Seam Zone49 between the Security Barrier and the Green line create by the Armistice Agreement between Israel and Jordan on April 3, 1949.

12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to [a]turn thine hand upon the [b]desolate places that are now [c]inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the [d]nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

a. "turn thine hand upon" – To apply oneself

This begins when Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, asked the the League of Arab States if the organization would support him in restarting negotiations with Israel, which broke off in 2008. 'Arab League approval will politically enable PA President Hamoud Abbas to agree to resume talks with Israel.'

Arab League foreign ministers on March 3, 2010 approved a U.S. proposal that Palestinians hold indirect talks with Israelis.
b. Solitary; without a companion; afflicted (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).

'For decades, Arab governments have justified their decision to maintain millions of stateless Palestinians as refugees in squalid camps as a way of pressuring Israel. The refugee problem will be solved, they say, when Israel agrees to let the Palestinians have their own state.

'Yet after years spent in terrible conditions, not a single Palestinian refugee has been returned to Israel, and a few aging apparatchiks have made it back to the West Bank or Gaza. Instead, failed peace plans and shifting political winds have resulted in a second Palestinian nakba, or catastrophe - this one at hands of the Arab governments.'
c. Occupied by inhabitants (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).

At a Palestine National Council meeting in Algiers, held November 12-15, 1988 Yasser Arafat unilaterally declares a Palestinian state.
d. "The Palestine National Council based the Algiers declaration of Palestinian statehood on UN Resolution 181, the 1947 Partition Plan which divided Mandate Palestine into Arab and Jewish states.

"But by citing this UN decision, the Palestinian leadership was on shaky ground, as it contradicted their own Palestinian Covenant, which declared in Article 19 that 'the partition of Palestine in 1947… [is] entirely illegal… and [is] inconsistent with the principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations.' Indeed, for decades the Palestinians and Arab states uniformly claimed that Resolution 181 was 'null and void' at various UN forums. In arguing the Palestinian case, jurist Henry Cattan proclaimed that 'at no time was the partition resolution accepted by the Palestinians or by the Arab states.' Similarly, the Seminar of Arab Jurists on Palestine, meeting in the same Algiers some years earlier, had declared that the resolution was 'absolutely null and void.'"

13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?
14 ¶ Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of [a]the house of Israel [b]dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

a. This is the house of Israel in the people of the tribe of Juda.
b. "dwelleth safely" – To be in agreement.

In this instance it is a reference to the Israeli Government and the Arabs (including the Palestinians) being in agreement about an arranged peace deal.

15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the [a]north [b]parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

a. The northern part of a country or area (Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English).
b. A portion or quantity of a thing not separated in fact, but considered or mentioned by itself (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).

'North parts' here represents the northern part or area of the state of Israel as we know it today. The invading force will come as "a cloud to cover the land" (Ezek. 38:16) from the direction of Lebanon and vicinity. Chapter 38 of the Book of Ezekiel represents the beginning of the invasion into Iraq and Israel. The invaders will begin their invasion into Israel from the north of the state of Israel. Ethiopia, Egypt and Libya are south of the state of Israel and will take a little longer to arrive then the population to the north. They need to cross the desert first.

16 And thou shalt come up against my [a]people of the house of Israel, as a [b]cloud to [c]cover the [d]land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

a. The body of persons who compose a community, town, city or nation (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).

This is the house of Israel in the people of the tribe of Juda. These people are now living in a country that we refer to as Israel. They are not the people of the house of Israel that are gathered as the people that represent God or his kingdom in the latter days.
b. A great multitude (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).
c. To overwhelm (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).
d. The inhabitants of a country or region (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).

Brian