Parables should settle the Preterist/Futurist debate

[gilgal]

I think Jesus parables shows the plan of God's kingdom. Especially Matthew 22. The number 22 goes along with the book of Acts and Revelation, (and Song of Solomon), spoke 22.


Matthew 22
1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
70AD. The first guests were Jews, of Jesus the Messiah's ancestors
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Refers to the readiness of the bride in Revelation and the judgment day.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

So notice that there is a prolongation from the 70AD to the judgment day.

[Brother Les]

I think Jesus parables shows the plan of God's kingdom. Especially Matthew 22. The number 22 goes along with the book of Acts and Revelation, (and Song of Solomon), spoke 22.

Quote:
Matthew 22
1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
70AD. The first guests were Jews, of Jesus the Messiah's ancestors
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Refers to the readiness of the bride in Revelation and the judgment day.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.


So notice that there is a prolongation from the 70AD to the judgment day.


Prolongation? That is funny. This is a parable about the 'chosen' for the Marriage..... it is only those 'chosen' who rejected the New Covenant Marriage that were Judged unworthy for that marriage by their Faith. Tfhey had no Faith. It is easy to see with the term of the 'destruction of the murderers and their city Jerusalem/Babylon/Sodom/Egypt does not state that all of those with no Faith were 'destroyed' at that time (AD70) but also shows that some that proclaimed to be followers of YHWH/Joshua were rejected also and were led away in chains as slaves as thousands were by the Roman Army (YHWHs Hand)..... The NC Marriage was to come at the fullness of 'The Time' (ending) of the OC Court Judgment. If there is no NC Marriage then there has been no Judgement and ALL Still go to Sheol as all are still covered by The Law of Death and NONE have entered into the Holy of Holies but Him only whom came down for the Holy of Holies to take away the Sins of the world (Covenant World) and only to those who look for him shall He appear a Second time without Sin, unto Salvation. No Judgement, no Marriage, No Salvation.

Hebrews 9:28

[gilgal]

Prolongation? That is funny. This is a parable about the 'chosen' for the Marriage..... it is only those 'chosen' who rejected the New Covenant Marriage that were Judged unworthy for that marriage by their Faith. Tfhey had no Faith. It is easy to see with the term of the 'destruction of the murderers and their city Jerusalem/Babylon/Sodom/Egypt does not state that all of those with no Faith were 'destroyed' at that time (AD70) but also shows that some that proclaimed to be followers of YHWH/Joshua were rejected also and were led away in chains as slaves as thousands were by the Roman Army (YHWHs Hand)..... The NC Marriage was to come at the fullness of 'The Time' (ending) of the OC Court Judgment. If there is no NC Marriage then there has been no Judgement and ALL Still go to Sheol as all are still covered by The Law of Death and NONE have entered into the Holy of Holies but Him only whom came down for the Holy of Holies to take away the Sins of the world (Covenant World) and only to those who look for him shall He appear a Second time without Sin, unto Salvation. No Judgement, no Marriage, No Salvation.

Hebrews 9:28
I don't understand what you're saying. How do you interpret this parable then?

[Brother Les]

I don't understand what you're saying. How do you interpret this parable then?

1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
Every single parable is written to and for and about 'Israel' (Sons of God). YHWH stated that by the Prophets that He was married to OC Israel.....
The Promises of that (OC) Marriage were of Blessings and Curses



2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto. Christ/Father God is King in Heaven and on the earth. (Ye are the ((Living)) Temple of God). The Blessing promised in the OC WERE a NC mariage. Israel (sons of God) were Promised this marriage and only Israel could recieve this marriage.

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Those bidden to the NC marriage could (first to the Jew) could only be those who are within the OC marriage. This was only at this time two tribes, Judah and Benjamin (and some corrupted Levis) for the 'House of Israel' (ten northern tribes) were already Divorced from YHWH (by the OC Law type) and were not given first Betrothal request.


4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

This is in the books of Jerimiah, Hosea, and Ezekiel.


The 'good news' was to go to the Jews first and then to the nations... the NC marrige promises were only to go to 'Israel' (sons of God) and it is these nations who made up the remnent of the northern house for it is the 'whole House' (Tabernacal) of David (all twelve tribes with David/ie Jesus as King and Husband) to come to the marriage. Ephraim/Israel no longer had the identity of being within the OC marriage umbrella, but many (remnent) came to the NC BETROTHAL that was given in AD33. The Remnent Jews (sect of The Way) were never cast off and the Remnent of Isreal (Ephraim) were invited back.......as a new People, by a New Name. the unElect of Judah (jews) and the unElect of Ephraim (Northern Israel) were never given Salvation. The Kingdom of God had come to man by marriage in Heaven and on Earth.

I will stop for now, but comepare this 'Parable' about Isreal to this one
Matt. 21:
33Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

44And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

45And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

46But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

[gilgal]

1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
Every single parable is written to and for and about 'Israel' (Sons of God). YHWH stated that by the Prophets that He was married to OC Israel.....
The Promises of that (OC) Marriage were of Blessings and Curses



2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto. Christ/Father God is King in Heaven and on the earth. (Ye are the ((Living)) Temple of God). The Blessing promised in the OC WERE a NC mariage. Israel (sons of God) were Promised this marriage and only Israel could recieve this marriage.

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Those bidden to the NC marriage could (first to the Jew) could only be those who are within the OC marriage. This was only at this time two tribes, Judah and Benjamin (and some corrupted Levis) for the 'House of Israel' (ten northern tribes) were already Divorced from YHWH (by the OC Law type) and were not given first Betrothal request.


4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

This is in the books of Jerimiah, Hosea, and Ezekiel.


The 'good news' was to go to the Jews first and then to the nations... the NC marrige promises were only to go to 'Israel' (sons of God) and it is these nations who made up the remnent of the northern house for it is the 'whole House' (Tabernacal) of David (all twelve tribes with David/ie Jesus as King and Husband) to come to the marriage. Ephraim/Israel no longer had the identity of being within the OC marriage umbrella, but many (remnent) came to the NC BETROTHAL that was given in AD33. The Remnent Jews (sect of The Way) were never cast off and the Remnent of Isreal (Ephraim) were invited back.......as a new People, by a New Name. the unElect of Judah (jews) and the unElect of Ephraim (Northern Israel) were never given Salvation. The Kingdom of God had come to man by marriage in Heaven and on Earth.

I will stop for now, but comepare this 'Parable' about Isreal to this one
Matt. 21:
33Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

44And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

45And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

46But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.
Ok how do you interpret this parable? Matthew 22

[Brother Les]

Ok how do you interpret this parable? Matthew 22

Revelation 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.



The 'type' as in the physical city was destroyed in AD70 and the 'anti-type' of the city was manifested as the bride of Christ at the same time.

7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.




How do I interpet Matt 22. The Marriage Happened in 70AD. the Bride is the Church and the Church is NC Israel from a remnent of OC Israel. With out the Marriage, we only have a Promise. A Promise is no good until it is fulfilled.

Proverbs 12:
12Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.

If Christ has not Come and the Marriage has not happened then our heart is sick and we do not have the Tree of Life with us and will not until that time. We are lost and we are dead and most miserable if the Judgment and Marriage has not happened.

[gilgal]

How do I interpet Matt 22. The Marriage Happened in 70AD. the Bride is the Church and the Church is NC Israel from a remnent of OC Israel. With out the Marriage, we only have a Promise. A Promise is no good until it is fulfilled.
But, I'm not making it up because this is how it's written....that the wedding day is after the city is destroyed and after Gentiles are invited:

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
70AD. The first guests were Jews, of Jesus the Messiah's ancestors
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Referring to the Jews, remember Jesus refused to speak to Gentiles but only those who showed faith like the Syrophoenician woman. He was ignoring her at first!!!
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
This is referring to the Gentiles after the death of Stephen in Acts 7. The Gospel went to the Samaritans and then Cornelius and the Gentiles as God told Peter that whomever God had cleansed call not common.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
But of course not everyone is clean. Jude warned this in his epistle as did Peter and Paul.
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Refers to the readiness of the bride in Revelation and the judgment day.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

[Brother Les]

But, I'm not making it up because this is how it's written....that the wedding day is after the city is destroyed and after Gentiles are invited:

Look at the Old Covenant as the 'type' that it is. When was the Old Covenant Wedding (hint:when the children of those that went into the wildreness crossed over into the physical terra firma Promised Land)? The very same Timeline and procedure exists for the New Covenant wedding. The ones the Recieved the Old Covenant Betrothal(Sinai) of Marriage were not the same ones who were actually married into the Old Covenant. All had to become a 'new People', born again,under a new name, Jews:Christians/Gentiles:Christians= The Body/the Church/the Assymbly/Christians.

[kathryn]

Look at the Old Covenant as the 'type' that it is. When was the Old Covenant Wedding (hint:when the children of those that went into the wildreness crossed over into the physical terra firma Promised Land)? The very same Timeline and procedure exists for the New Covenant wedding. The ones the Recieved the Old Covenant Betrothal(Sinai) of Marriage were not the same ones who were actually married into the Old Covenant. All had to become a 'new People', born again,under a new name, Jews:Christians/Gentiles:Christians= The Body/the Church/the Assymbly/Christians.

Hi Les, I urge you to have another look at the account in the book of Joshua, of the Israelites crossing the Jordan into the Promised Land for it is a type and shadow of the purification of the Bride. There is no New Covenant wedding until she is purified. The Body cannot be joined to the Head, without the Baptism of Fire being completed. This hasn't occured yet. I have pasted this from a previous post:



There are 3 stages of the growth of the Ecclesia (church) in scripture. I believe a clear picture of the two-part fullfillment of the Pentecostal or refining stage can be seen in the 3rd chapter of Joshua, when he leads the Israelites across the Jordan from ONE SIDE "in and through" the Jordan (death/water/life)to the OTHER SIDE.
Joshua of course, is a type of Christ and in Jos. 3:7 we see Jesus' ministry in type and shadow:

"And the Lord said unto Joshua(Jesus), This day I will begin to magnify thee in the sight of all Israel, that they may know that, as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee.."( as He did with Jesus during the 3.5 years of ministry)

The priests and the Ark went ahead of the people to show them the way, just as our High Priest goes before us.
They are told they had not passed this way before. (Jesus is the Way )

God now tells Joshua (Jesus) to instruct the Priests(disciples) , when they reach the BRINK (meaning: END of a certain time) to STAND STILL.
(meaning: endure.."be STILL and know that I am God) and REMAIN STANDING. We see the same admonition in the NT:

Rom. 5:2: By whom we have access by faith into this grace wherein WE STAND.
Eph. 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to STAND in the evil day, and having done all, TO STAND.


The Priests and the Ark were instructed to stay in the MIDST of the Jordan, until the Ecclesia had passed over to the other side. This is a picture of Jesus in Heaven, during our sanctification process. The Israelites are told to SANCTIFY themselves before crossing.(you will note that Joshua appears separate from the Priests in this account.)

The Ecclesia were commanded to remain 2000 cubits behind the ark. which illustrates both time and space between the Ark (Jesus...HEAD) and BODY. The 2000 cubits, of course, represent the refining age of the Church. It is the time the "two loaves" of the Pentecostal offering, are in the Baptism of Fire.


Joshua 3:17 describes the Ecclessia as having passed CLEAN over the Jordan, portraying the end of the cleansing of the church, when their carnal nature or iniquity , has been consumed in the Baptism of Fire.
clean: be consumed/ end / finished / upright / PERFECT / come to an END etc.

It is interesting to note that before the Ark/ priests enter the midst of the Jordan, 12 men are chosen . These typify I believe, the 12 disciples of Jesus. (Jos. 3:12) .

After the Ecclesia have passed over to the other side, God tells Joshua to choose 12 once more, one from each of the 12 tribes.(4:2)
It wasn't until I saw this account as a type of the two parts of the Pentecost fulfillment that I realized it is describing two groups of disciples, from either side of the refinement process. They are referred to as men Joshua had prepared. The two sets of 12 would then form the 24 elders.

The second 12 are commanded, AFTER the Israelites had crossed over CLEAN, to go into the MIDST of the Jordan, pick up 12 stones and carry them out on their SHOULDERS. This is a beautiful picture or type of the 144,000 first fruits (12 x 1200) who will be "caught up to meet Him in the air"(typified by the Jordan) to "rule and reign" with Him on earth. (and the Government shall be upon His SHOULDERS)

[Brother Les]

Hi Les, I urge you to have another look at the account in the book of Joshua, of the Israelites crossing the Jordan into the Promised Land for it is a type and shadow of the purification of the Bride. There is no New Covenant wedding until she is purified. The Body cannot be joined to the Head, without the Baptism of Fire being completed. This hasn't occured yet. I have pasted this from a previous post:



There are 3 stages of the growth of the Ecclesia (church) in scripture. I believe a clear picture of the two-part fullfillment of the Pentecostal or refining stage can be seen in the 3rd chapter of Joshua, when he leads the Israelites across the Jordan from ONE SIDE "in and through" the Jordan (death/water/life)to the OTHER SIDE.
Joshua of course, is a type of Christ and in Jos. 3:7 we see Jesus' ministry in type and shadow:

"And the Lord said unto Joshua(Jesus), This day I will begin to magnify thee in the sight of all Israel, that they may know that, as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee.."( as He did with Jesus during the 3.5 years of ministry)

The priests and the Ark went ahead of the people to show them the way, just as our High Priest goes before us.
They are told they had not passed this way before. (Jesus is the Way )

God now tells Joshua (Jesus) to instruct the Priests(disciples) , when they reach the BRINK (meaning: END of a certain time) to STAND STILL.
(meaning: endure.."be STILL and know that I am God) and REMAIN STANDING. We see the same admonition in the NT:

Rom. 5:2: By whom we have access by faith into this grace wherein WE STAND.
Eph. 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to STAND in the evil day, and having done all, TO STAND.


The Priests and the Ark were instructed to stay in the MIDST of the Jordan, until the Ecclesia had passed over to the other side. This is a picture of Jesus in Heaven, during our sanctification process. The Israelites are told to SANCTIFY themselves before crossing.(you will note that Joshua appears separate from the Priests in this account.)

The Ecclesia were commanded to remain 2000 cubits behind the ark. which illustrates both time and space between the Ark (Jesus...HEAD) and BODY. The 2000 cubits, of course, represent the refining age of the Church. It is the time the "two loaves" of the Pentecostal offering, are in the Baptism of Fire.


Joshua 3:17 describes the Ecclessia as having passed CLEAN over the Jordan, portraying the end of the cleansing of the church, when their carnal nature or iniquity , has been consumed in the Baptism of Fire.
clean: be consumed/ end / finished / upright / PERFECT / come to an END etc.

It is interesting to note that before the Ark/ priests enter the midst of the Jordan, 12 men are chosen . These typify I believe, the 12 disciples of Jesus. (Jos. 3:12) .

After the Ecclesia have passed over to the other side, God tells Joshua to choose 12 once more, one from each of the 12 tribes.(4:2)
It wasn't until I saw this account as a type of the two parts of the Pentecost fulfillment that I realized it is describing two groups of disciples, from either side of the refinement process. They are referred to as men Joshua had prepared. The two sets of 12 would then form the 24 elders.

The second 12 are commanded, AFTER the Israelites had crossed over CLEAN, to go into the MIDST of the Jordan, pick up 12 stones and carry them out on their SHOULDERS. This is a beautiful picture or type of the 144,000 first fruits (12 x 1200) who will be "caught up to meet Him in the air"(typified by the Jordan) to "rule and reign" with Him on earth. (and the Government shall be upon His SHOULDERS)

I think that these 'types' that you have posted have progressed into the Real in the same timeline framework. This is a 40year (one generation) timeline from Betrothal to Marriage (Sinai, Promised Land Crossing/Penetcost, Promised Land Crossing, not a 2,000 year (+) timeframe.




:pop2:

[kathryn]

I think that these 'types' that you have posted have progressed into the Real in the same timeline framework. This is a 40year (one generation) timeline from Betrothal to Marriage (Sinai, Promised Land Crossing/Penetcost, Promised Land Crossing, not a 2,000 year (+) timeframe.




:pop2:I

I'm not too clear on what you're saying here Les. What are you referring to as the Pentecost/Promised Land crossing?

[Brother Les]

I

I'm not too clear on what you're saying here Les. What are you referring to as the Pentecost/Promised Land crossing?

The NT speaks of the 'coming' (their timeframe, first century) marriage. At the time of the writings of all of the NT books the Covenant People were still under the Law of Moses, the law of death.

In referring to the giving of the marriage Betrothal at MT Sinai and going forward 40 years. It is at that date that God tells Joshua that the Reproach of EGYPT (40years after Sinai) is rolled away from The People. The rolling away of the former Love of Israel (Egypt) is when the marriage accured.

The very same 'type' and 'anti-type' applies to the first century timeline. Even though the Betrothal to 'the People' was given at Pentecost, the rolling away of the reproach of Egypt/Babylon/Jerusalem/Mosaic Temple Cultus 'law' did not happen until 70AD and it was at that time that the NC Marriage accured. That is what I mean about the Pentecost/Promise Land Crossing.

The New Jerusalem is here and it is The People of God, married to Jesus/God. The very same entity that made the OC betrothal and marriage to Israel made the NC betrothal and marriage to Israel. Within those that make up Israel have always been sons of darkness and sons of light. Sons of Hagar, which are the sons of the OC and sons of Sarah, which are sons of the NC.

[kathryn]

The NT speaks of the 'coming' (their timeframe, first century) marriage.

I know you see this as their time frame Les, but you're not taking the many types and shadows depicting the perfection or sanctification process of the Bride into consideration in this. There are 3 distinct phases of this process and Pentecost itself is shown in 3 distinct phases.

At the time of the writings of all of the NT books the Covenant People were still under the Law of Moses, the law of death.
Yes, the death of Jesus completed the Passover age or" generation" of the Ecclesia and began the age or generation of Pentecost. Pentecost was a "leavened" feast typifying the condition of iniquity still in the "Bride" , which is why the two loaves of bread had to be placed in the fire. (the Baptism of Fire) The Bride will have no spot or wrinkle on her wedding day(no iniquity). This certainly hasn't completed yet.

In referring to the giving of the marriage Betrothal at MT Sinai and going forward 40 years. It is at that date that God tells Joshua that the Reproach of EGYPT (40years after Sinai) is rolled away from The People. The rolling away of the former Love of Israel (Egypt) is when the marriage accured.
Yes, but again, they were only in phase one (Passover) of the perfection
process.

The very same 'type' and 'anti-type' applies to the first century timeline. Even though the Betrothal to 'the People' was given at Pentecost, the rolling away of the reproach of Egypt/Babylon/Jerusalem/Mosaic Temple Cultus 'law' did not happen until 70AD and it was at that time that the NC Marriage accured. That is what I mean about the Pentecost/Promise Land Crossing.
Yes, I agree you can see a phase of it here, but not the completion. The NT church were just beginning their sanctification process. You will see if you study the type in Joshua, that they were just at the "brink" of the river at this point.They were still "2000" cubits behind the ark. (church age)

The New Jerusalem is here
[B] Yes, but it has yet to be made manifest. We're still in the Baptism of Fire (the Jordan) having our "spots and wrinkles removed"

The very same entity that made the OC betrothal and marriage to Israel made the NC betrothal and marriage to Israel. Within those that make up Israel have always been sons of darkness and sons of light. Sons of Hagar, which are the sons of the OC and sons of Sarah, which are sons of the NC.

Yes, I agree about Hagar Les but you're leaving out a major step in all of this.There are TWO works of Christ...and Pentecost has a two-part fullfillment. You've only looked at the crossing of the Jordan in the Passover type and the first part of the Pentecostal type. There are two sides to the river...two sets of "12" called out...and a place called the MIDST of the river, where the ark (Jesus) and priests (1st century saints) are waiting, with the ecclesia 2000 cubits behind. ("40" (wilderness testing) x 50 (Pentecost)
If you do a word study, you'll see it is describing the sanctification process of the Bride and it is not until "she" emerges "clean" on the other side...that this is all fullfilled. We all still have the dual nature of Pentecost (or leaven)..carnal and holy. It is not until the condition of iniquity is consumed in the Baptism of Fire, that the wedding can take place.

[Brother Les]

kathryn

Yes, I agree you can see a phase of it here, but not the completion. The NT church were just beginning their sanctification process. You will see if you study the type in Joshua, that they were just at the "brink" of the river at this point.They were still "2000" cubits behind the ark. (church age)

The People could Never have Crossed over the Jordan (or walked into) if they were NOT married to YHWH/Jesus. The 'sanctification' process (maturing) of the NT church was during the transition period of AD30-AD70. There is no and never will be again the 'Ark of The (oc) covenant. Your stating of a 'church age' is an indication of an ending of your percieved church age. This is not Biblical by OT or NT standards but by skewed church timeline traditions. By stating of a 'church age' you are saying that the New Covenant Has not come and that there is now no Salvation and All will go to Sheol and NONE (but Christ) has gone to heaven to be in the presents of God.


If you do a word study, you'll see it is describing the sanctification process of the Bride and it is not until "she" emerges "clean" on the other side...that this is all fullfilled. We all still have the dual nature of Pentecost (or leaven)..carnal and holy. It is not until the condition of iniquity is consumed in the Baptism of Fire, that the wedding can take place.

Are you 'clean'? Are you Holy? I guess not. You seem to take the tack that your 'duel nature' is held against you and that at some point you will emerge 'clean'..... You are holding the standards of Works, you are holding the standards of the Old Covenant Law. To you that Law has never been fulfilled, to you 'the People' must have mill stones placed around their necks for 'during THIS AGE (YOUR church age) all are 'still' unclean and dogs by their NATURE. Your mind set is that you are a dog (unclean) and forever you shall remain a dog (Goem).

You wish to remain in an age of works that is no more, and it is to your (darkness) Fathers that the prophecets spoke. Don't tell me about the workings of Joshua when it you who are still wondering in the wilderness and not even close to 'the Jordan'.
Isa 6:
8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

11Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

Jer. 5:
20Declare this in the house of Jacob, and publish it in Judah, saying,

21Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:



Ezekiel 12
1The word of the LORD also came unto me, saying,

2Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.

3Therefore, thou son of man, prepare thee stuff for removing, and remove by day in their sight; and thou shalt remove from thy place to another place in their sight: it may be they will consider, though they be a rebellious house.


Mat.13:

14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


Mar 8:

15And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.

16And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread.

17And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?

18Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?



Acts 28:
25And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, 26Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

27For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

28Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Romans 11:
7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.





Oh, daughter of Hagar, throw off your vain works religion, which is no religion at all and crossover to the Promise Land of Marriage to Christ/YHWH.

[Twospirits]

BL wrote,

The NT speaks of the 'coming' (their timeframe, first century) marriage. At the time of the writings of all of the NT books the Covenant People were still under the Law of Moses, the law of death.

Did Jesus fulfill the law when he died on the cross? If your answer is "no," then tell me what Paul meant when he said in Col. 2:14, "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross." Here's exactly what Jesus was saying in Matthew 5:17-18: The death of Jesus on the cross fulfilled the requirements of the Old Testament Law. And...that's exactly what Paul is emphasizing in Col. 2:14.


Even though the Betrothal to 'the People' was given at Pentecost, the rolling away of the reproach of Egypt/Babylon/Jerusalem/Mosaic Temple Cultus 'law' did not happen until 70AD and it was at that time that the NC Marriage accured. That is what I mean about the Pentecost/Promise Land Crossing.


Les, Jewish marriage customs show us that it involved the establishing of a marriage covenant, which came to its fullness at Pentecost, not in 70 A.D. Christ's death at the Cross, the price the Bridegroom (Christ) paid to purchase his Bride, which was part of the Jewish marriage customs. From that moment on the Bride was married and 'set apart' exclusively for her Bridegroom. After the marriage covenant had been established the groom would return to his Father's house (Christ's ascension) to prepare a place (wedding chamber) for his bride. The consummation of the marriage (Rev. 19:7) and the marriage supper (Rev. 19:9) could not come until he returned for his Bride; and this has yet to occur. This can be seen in the parable of Mt. 22 that Gilgal posted.

God bless---Twospirits

[Brother Les]

Henry
Did Jesus fulfill the law when he died on the cross? If your answer is "no," then tell me what Paul meant when he said in Col. 2:14, "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross."

Col 2:
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,



Unless you proclaim to have a Jewish mother (Henry) then it was not possiable for you to be under the Law of Moses from the timeline of The Cross until the Judgments of The Mosaic Law and of the Ages before.Paul at the time of the writing of Colossians says that the ordinances of The Law are a shadow of Things To Come (future tense from Pauls writings and after The Cross) :rolleyes:



Here's exactly what Jesus was saying in Matthew 5:17-18:


17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

25Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.


So....You are saying that Jesus Christ destroyed Heaven and Earth on the day that He died on The Cross? :lol:




The death of Jesus on the cross fulfilled the requirements of the Old Testament Law. And...that's exactly what Paul is emphasizing in Col. 2:14.

His death fulfilled the Sacrifice.... it did not fulfill the Judgments of the OC marriage contract terms.
The Romans did that 40years later

[Brother Les]

Les, Jewish marriage customs show us that it involved the establishing of a marriage covenant, which came to its fullness at Pentecost, not in 70 A.D. Christ's death at the Cross, the price the Bridegroom (Christ) paid to purchase his Bride, which was part of the Jewish marriage customs. From that moment on the Bride was married and “set apart” exclusively for her Bridegroom. After the marriage covenant had been established the groom would return to his Father's house (Christ's ascension) to prepare a place (wedding chamber) for his bride. The consummation of the marriage (Rev. 19:7) and the marriage supper (Rev. 19:9) could not come until he returned for his Bride; and this has yet to occur. This can be seen in the parable of Mt. 22 that Gilgal posted.

God bless---Twospirits

It would be to easy to rip you apart on what you have stated here. As is some things, you are close but stretched in a way that fits your belief and not reality.



In Jewish marriage customs, the betrothal is as binding as marriage. You will find that it can only be undone by divorce on proper grounds--such as the bride not being found a virgin.Next in the ceremonial order is the placement of the sealed cup of acceptance before the bride and groom as per the ancient Jewish Wedding custom during the betrothal ceremony.

You will be surprised to know that the groom actually proposes to the bride during this ceremony! The groom is expected to pour out the wine from the cup for his bride and wait for her to drink it as a token of her love for him and acceptance of his marriage proposal.

http://www.muslim-marriage-guide.com/jewish-marriage-customs.html



Henry, you are stating that 'we' (?) are 'betrothed' to Christ for over 2,000 years in an unBiblical 'church age'. 'Betrothal' that is binding for something 'in YOUR future'. This means that you are not an heir, and you still have no Salveation, that you are not Redeemed, but only 'betrotheded' in a 'pledge' of things to come. This would make the words of Paul so true (for you) that you are still in the Shadow and that you are still waiting for the things to come. You are judged by meat and drink and new moons and sabbaths.

By being on 'Betrothed', then we still wait for the fulfilling of Jermiah 31 and Ezekiel 37.

[Twospirits]

BL wrote,

In Jewish marriage customs, the betrothal is as binding as marriage. You will find that it can only be undone by divorce on proper grounds--such as the bride not being found a virgin.Next in the ceremonial order is the placement of the sealed cup of acceptance before the bride and groom as per the ancient Jewish Wedding custom during the betrothal ceremony.

You will be surprised to know that the groom actually proposes to the bride during this ceremony! The groom is expected to pour out the wine from the cup for his bride and wait for her to drink it as a token of her love for him and acceptance of his marriage proposal.

Yes, this is correct, except it is a legal marriage, and not “as” a marriage. Otherwise why is there a need for a “writ of divorce” if there are grounds found for it; and why are they called a Bride and Groom if they are not?


Henry, you are stating that 'we' (?) are 'betrothed' to Christ for over 2,000 years in an unBiblical 'church age'. 'Betrothal' that is binding for something 'in YOUR future'. This means that you are not an heir, and you still have no Salveation, that you are not Redeemed, but only 'betrotheded' in a 'pledge' of things to come. This would make the words of Paul so true (for you) that you are still in the Shadow and that you are still waiting for the things to come. You are judged by meat and drink and new moons and sabbaths.

By being on 'Betrothed', then we still wait for the fulfilling of Jermiah 31 and Ezekiel 37.

No we are married in Christ and await the consummation of the marriage when He comes. We are not under the Law but under Grace. The death of Jesus on the cross fulfilled the requirements of the Old Testament Law. And...that's exactly what Paul is emphasizing in Col. 2:14.

God bless---Twospirits

[gilgal]

Look at the Old Covenant as the 'type' that it is. When was the Old Covenant Wedding (hint:when the children of those that went into the wildreness crossed over into the physical terra firma Promised Land)? The very same Timeline and procedure exists for the New Covenant wedding. The ones the Recieved the Old Covenant Betrothal(Sinai) of Marriage were not the same ones who were actually married into the Old Covenant. All had to become a 'new People', born again,under a new name, Jews:Christians/Gentiles:Christians= The Body/the Church/the Assymbly/Christians.
Yes I agree.

The Israelites left Egypt on the first passover.

Likewise the first Christians who were Israelites were persecuted during the first few years and scattered after the execution of Stephen in Acts 7 until Herod's death in Acts 12.

But our aim and struggle is for the heavenly city not the earthly city. But it was the same for Abraham too. And in psalms (91?) it says that if you hear the word of God today not to harden your hearts as they hardened and entered not into the land of promise in Numbers 14.

[Brother Les]

Henry


Quote:
BL wrote,

In Jewish marriage customs, the betrothal is as binding as marriage. You will find that it can only be undone by divorce on proper grounds--such as the bride not being found a virgin.Next in the ceremonial order is the placement of the sealed cup of acceptance before the bride and groom as per the ancient Jewish Wedding custom during the betrothal ceremony.

You will be surprised to know that the groom actually proposes to the bride during this ceremony! The groom is expected to pour out the wine from the cup for his bride and wait for her to drink it as a token of her love for him and acceptance of his marriage proposal.

Yes, this is correct, except it is a legal marriage, and not “as” a marriage. Otherwise why is there a need for a “writ of divorce” if there are grounds found for it; and why are they called a Bride and Groom if they are not?

Henry, I cut and pasted the two paragraphs word for word from the url that I posted....I changed nothing. you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with the website that that was posted on. And as for the 'writ of Divorce'.... The 'Divorce' (removal from) is the removing the Betrothal pledge. The Betrothal pledge can only be 'undone' for 'proper' grounds and thus the 'Divorce' (removal) of the Betrothal pledge. This is not the marriage and the end of the Consemation age period, but it leads up to that binding of the Full Completion. This is in full compareson of The Church, being born at pentecost (weeks and weeks after The Cross) and growing unto its' full maturity 40 years later at the Marriage. The Writer of the Book of Hebrews brings this out very well when he tells his reader (Hebrews) to not 'go back' to the law of works (which they could anytime they wanted to), but to go forward to the law of Grace. The 'Betrothed' 'bride' could do many things that would nullify the marriage Betrothal and earn her a 'writ of Divorce' from the Betrothal Pleadge.
(Henry, a lot of times I think that you like to argue for arguements sake.... and sometimes I think that you are very naive)


No we are married in Christ and await the consummation of the marriage when He comes


If the Marriage has not been consemated then we have no rights as heirs and sons. We have not been redeemed, we do not have Rightiousness, and have no Salvation.



We are not under the Law but under Grace.

Then act like it and stop saying that it will end....



The death of Jesus on the cross fulfilled the requirements of the Old Testament Law. And...that's exactly what Paul is emphasizing in Col. 2:14.

God bless---Twospirits

He did not and I have answered this. the very verses around the one that you wish to use as a proof text destroys your arguement.

Good Day/AGE




gilgal
But our aim and struggle is for the heavenly city not the earthly city. But it was the same for Abraham too.

Then live in the Heavenly city... it is all around you. Abraham was looking for Beulah Land. He was a traveler with God/Jesus through the land of dirt, but he was looking for an other land, the Heavenly Land of Promise. That Promise has been fulfilled and he and we are living it it now.

[Twospirits]

BL wrote,

This is in full compareson of The Church, being born at pentecost (weeks and weeks after The Cross) and growing unto its' full maturity 40 years later at the Marriage.

If the Marriage has not been consemated then we have no rights as heirs and sons. We have not been redeemed, we do not have Rightiousness, and have no Salvation.

Galatians says we ARE sons and heirs in Christ, and we ARE redeemed in Christ unto salvation.

Gal. 3:26, 'For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.'

Gal. 3:28, 'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.'

Gal. 3:29, 'And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise .'

Gal. 4:7, 'Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.'

As I noted, the death of Jesus on the cross fulfilled the requirements of the Old Testament Law. And...that's exactly what Paul is emphasizing in Col. 2:14.

Galatians was written sometime in 54-55 A.D., years before 70 A.D. and the consummation of the marriage per your paradigm! Anyone from Pentecost on who turned to Christ ARE redeemed and ARE children of God.

God bless---Twospirits

[Bob May]

Galatians says we ARE sons and heirs in Christ, and we ARE redeemed in Christ unto salvation.

Gal. 3:26, 'For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.'

Gal. 3:28, 'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.'

Gal. 3:29, 'And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise .'

Gal. 4:7, 'Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.'

As I noted, the death of Jesus on the cross fulfilled the requirements of the Old Testament Law. And...that's exactly what Paul is emphasizing in Col. 2:14.

Galatians was written sometime in 54-55 A.D., years before 70 A.D. and the consummation of the marriage per your paradigm! Anyone from Pentecost on who turned to Christ ARE redeemed and ARE children of God.

God bless---Twospirits

I don't see much reason to argue here.

Everything was completed at the Cross and Resurrection and Pentecost.
At the cross we died to the law and the law was finished for those that believe. We are no longer under the law.

At the Resurrection we are shown that we come to life. We are under Grace and supposed to live a new life. Water Baptism. Again to those that believe.

At Pentecost The Spirit was poured out on all flesh. We are taught of God and begin to really understand a different language. We begin to understand the Scriptures and the World around us has been written allegorically.
We begin to read it/them that way. Baptism of Air.
This also is to them that believe or continue to believe that we are under grace and all of life is a gift.

Jesus said, "I am the way." Jesus read the world in this way.

Lu 12:24 Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?

This is a perfect description of the taking of the Promised land. He saw it by looking at a bird.

Jos 24:2 And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time

Jos 24:3 And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the flood, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his seed, and gave him Isaac.

Jos 24:7 And when they cried unto the LORD, he put darkness between you and the Egyptians, and brought the sea upon them, and covered them;

Jos 24:8 And I brought you into the land of the Amorites, which dwelt on the other side Jordan; and they fought with you: and I gave them into your hand, that ye might possess their land; and I destroyed them from before you.
Jos 24:13 And I have given you a land for which ye did not labour, and cities which ye built not, and ye dwell in them; of the vineyards and oliveyards which ye planted not do ye eat.

Jesus saw God's promise fulfilled in the provision for a bird without the labor required.
We are supposed to do that too. Look at the world this way and continue to look at it this way.
To cross the Red sea took faith in the word of God.
To cross the Jordan took faith in the word of God.
To see the Old Testament as shadows and types takes faith. There are many who will not allow themselves see this.
To see the New Testament (and Jesus' life) as shadows and types of our life takes faith. There are many who will not cross over into this way of thinking. It takes faith.
To see the world around us as types of the real (anti-types) takes faith and there are many who will not go that route.

That there are different aspects to the one baptism is simply to allow ourselves to believe we are on the right track but have not yet made it where we are going.
We hold onto Grace.
We hold onto the promise that God is teaching us. And the promise of Jesus that;
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

By holding onto Grace and believing the promises we change. It is God changing us.
By believing we have been perfected we allow God to have his perfect work in us.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

2co 10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.

[kathryn]

I don't see much reason to argue here.

Everything was completed at the Cross and Resurrection and Pentecost.
At the cross we died to the law and the law was finished for those that believe. We are no longer under the law.

At the Resurrection we are shown that we come to life. We are under Grace and supposed to live a new life. Water Baptism. Again to those that believe.

At Pentecost The Spirit was poured out on all flesh. We are taught of God and begin to really understand a different language. We begin to understand the Scriptures and the World around us has been written allegorically.
We begin to read it/them that way. Baptism of Air.
This also is to them that believe or continue to believe that we are under grace and all of life is a gift.

Jesus said, "I am the way." Jesus read the world in this way.

Lu 12:24 Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?

This is a perfect description of the taking of the Promised land. He saw it by looking at a bird.

Jos 24:2 And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time

Jos 24:3 And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the flood, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his seed, and gave him Isaac.

Jos 24:7 And when they cried unto the LORD, he put darkness between you and the Egyptians, and brought the sea upon them, and covered them;

Jos 24:8 And I brought you into the land of the Amorites, which dwelt on the other side Jordan; and they fought with you: and I gave them into your hand, that ye might possess their land; and I destroyed them from before you.
Jos 24:13 And I have given you a land for which ye did not labour, and cities which ye built not, and ye dwell in them; of the vineyards and oliveyards which ye planted not do ye eat.

Jesus saw God's promise fulfilled in the provision for a bird without the labor required.
We are supposed to do that too. Look at the world this way and continue to look at it this way.
To cross the Red sea took faith in the word of God.
To cross the Jordan took faith in the word of God.
To see the Old Testament as shadows and types takes faith. There are many who will not allow themselves see this.
To see the New Testament (and Jesus' life) as shadows and types of our life takes faith. There are many who will not cross over into this way of thinking. It takes faith.
To see the world around us as types of the real (anti-types) takes faith and there are many who will not go that route.

That there are different aspects to the one baptism is simply to allow ourselves to believe we are on the right track but have not yet made it where we are going.
We hold onto Grace.
We hold onto the promise that God is teaching us. And the promise of Jesus that;
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

By holding onto Grace and believing the promises we change. It is God changing us.
By believing we have been perfected we allow God to have his perfect work in us.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

2co 10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.

Hi Bob, good post. We are indeed perfected IN Christ. He however, has not yet been perfected (or made manifest) fully in us. This is the consumation of the marriage...He "consumes" us in the Baptism of Fire, as we "consume" Him.

This is the process illustrated in the crossing of the Jordan. We are told to purify ourselves EVEN AS WE ARE PURE. This is "calling forth that which is not, as though it were"...or standing on the Word of God, until the "vain imaginations" of the carnal mind have been taken captive to the "obedience of Christ". (2 Cor. 10) This is how we become an "overcomer"...or one who "crosses over" death (the Jordan) into Life.

This is the utter fullfillment of the Feast of Pentecost, when the 2 loaves are taken out of the Fire. Jesus completed the legal fullfillment at the cross as typified by the FIRST goat in the Atonement sacrifice. He then , as typified by the Ark, ascended to Heaven or to the MIDST of the Jordan, and waits until His Body or ekklesia begins the crossing. (or the SECOND goat is released into the wilderness ) As the Israelites emerge on the "other side"...so the "Beloved" is seen leaning on her Lover (Bridegroom) coming OUT of the wilderness. (Song of Solomon)

It is a TWO part process...the 'Head" goes BEFORE the "Body". We cannot be fully joined to our Head, Jesus Christ, until our "head" has been "lifted up" and removed....as the Baker's head in the story of Joseph. It is only when the "Baker" is HUNG (head dislocated from body) that the FEAST can begin and the CUP (our purified vessel) presented to Pharaoh.

Another type of this can be seen in the parable of the wheat and tares. The 1st century church were in SEED form as clearly stated . It was not until the HEADS formed on the weeds that they were pulled up and tossed into the fire.

There isn't anyone on earth who has yet to complete this Baptism of Fire. The consumation as not been completed. When this occurs, the Sons of God that all of creation has been eagerly waiting for, will be made manifest.

How do we "purify" ourselves? We STAND (as the Israelites before the crossing were told to "stand") in His Faith , believing in His promises as you said Bob...until the perfection we are IN Him, is made manifest IN us. We shall be like Him, when we SEE HIM as He is. This is the utter fullfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles....our NEW Tabernacle or body. (Christ FULLY manifested in us..or Christ fully FORMED in us). Let me quote one of the verses you gave again:

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

[Bob May]

Hi Bob, good post. We are indeed perfected IN Christ. He however, has not yet been perfected (or made manifest) fully in us. This is the consumation of the marriage...He "consumes" us in the Baptism of Fire, as we "consume" Him.

This is the process illustrated in the crossing of the Jordan. We are told to purify ourselves EVEN AS WE ARE PURE. This is "calling forth that which is not, as though it were"...or standing on the Word of God, until the "vain imaginations" of the carnal mind have been taken captive to the "obedience of Christ". (2 Cor. 10) This is how we become an "overcomer"...or one who "crosses over" death (the Jordan) into Life.


Hi Kathryn,
A land flowing with milk and honey. What do those two have in common?
They have been digested twice. First the bees and cows and then by us.
This is the allegorical nature of both scriptures and reality. We understand it/them and then look deeper to understand it again at a deeper level.

To reap a harvest we have not tended or even planted. That is the Spirit teaching us.
Ro 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Even the seed or desire within us to know certain things comes from Him.




This is the utter fullfillment of the Feast of Pentecost, when the 2 loaves are taken out of the Fire. Jesus completed the legal fullfillment at the cross as typified by the FIRST goat in the Atonement sacrifice. He then , as typified by the Ark, ascended to Heaven or to the MIDST of the Jordan, and waits until His Body or ekklesia begins the crossing. (or the SECOND goat is released into the wilderness ) As the Israelites emerge on the "other side"...so the "Beloved" is seen leaning on her Lover (Bridegroom) coming OUT of the wilderness. (Song of Solomon)

It is a TWO part process...the 'Head" goes BEFORE the "Body". We cannot be fully joined to our Head, Jesus Christ, until our "head" has been "lifted up" and removed....as the Baker's head in the story of Joseph. It is only when the "Baker" is HUNG (head dislocated from body) that the FEAST can begin and the CUP (our purified vessel) presented to Pharaoh.

Another type of this can be seen in the parable of the wheat and tares. The 1st century church were in SEED form as clearly stated . It was not until the HEADS formed on the weeds that they were pulled up and tossed into the fire.


Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

A very curious sensation happens during the meditation called the "Point" or "Thousand Petaled Lotus" in the East. The head disappears completely.
The body is a cup without the head.

""First the blade, (rightly dividing the word, the sword dividing asunder the soul and spirit.) Then the Ear, (hearing, Isaac, "all those that hear shall laugh with me.) Then the full corn in the ear. ( the full fruit of the Spirit,..Hearing at a different level)""



There isn't anyone on earth who has yet to complete this Baptism of Fire. The consumation as not been completed. When this occurs, the Sons of God that all of creation has been eagerly waiting for, will be made manifest.


I don't know if your first statement is true or not. We get revelation of scriptures one at a time. We go through the baptism one at a time.
As far as the consummation goes we may gather for that later. Or it may be speaking of an internal experience.



How do we "purify" ourselves? We STAND (as the Israelites before the crossing were told to "stand") in His Faith , believing in His promises as you said Bob...until the perfection we are IN Him, is made manifest IN us. We shall be like Him, when we SEE HIM as He is. This is the utter fullfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles....our NEW Tabernacle or body. (Christ FULLY manifested in us..or Christ fully FORMED in us). Let me quote one of the verses you gave again:


I am beginning to look at Jesus' statement to "follow me" as more than a request. More akin to the words "...Let there be light." Like we really didn't have a choice in the matter..



Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
[/QUOTE]

There are many parallels between Kundalini yoga practices and the baptism of fire. Much to do with heat and purification of the body.

I enjoy your posts. You arrive at some of the same conclusions I do but from a different angle. That is how it is supposed to be though.
I see the Scriptures as a holographic glass in one way. If you break the glass that the holograph is on, each piece of the glass shows the entire picture.
Scripture is like that.
I have concentrated my studies on the New Testament and the stories of Jacob and Joseph because I first found myself written into those stories.
You see a lot in the festivals. We both saw the three baptisms at the same period of time and they meshed even though arrived at from different perspectives.
That, I believe, is an example of the three that bear witness on earth and how the Spirit teaches us.

1jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Have a great day,
Bob

[Brother Les]

Galatians was written sometime in 54-55 A.D., years before 70 A.D. and the consummation of the marriage per your paradigm! Anyone from Pentecost on who turned to Christ ARE redeemed and ARE children of God.

God bless---Twospirits


Until they, themselves decide to fall away from following Christ and go back to their old life. They were betrothed, but by their own free will they at anytime could go back to their old man, to their harlotry and be divorced from the betrothal pledge. This is the same point that you should agree about many and any Christians today. Being joint heirs with always the possiablility of being cut off for any transgression. By reading Romans 6, The carnal nature of man always bring about sin and sin brings about Death. Death does rein. God says to choose Life and many do not.

You say that Christ redeemed us, but as in reading Hebrews and Galatians of the pleading to not go back to the old man of Sin. This shows that many can and will go back, if not to the Law of Moses, then to the law of the carnal world showing that the redeeming factor of Christ falls short to those who wish it.

[Brother Les]

Quote:
BL wrote,

This is in full compareson of The Church, being born at pentecost (weeks and weeks after The Cross) and growing unto its' full maturity 40 years later at the Marriage.

If the Marriage has not been consemated then we have no rights as heirs and sons. We have not been redeemed, we do not have Rightiousness, and have no Salvation. Galatians says we ARE sons and heirs in Christ, and we ARE redeemed in Christ unto salvation.

Gal. 3:26, 'For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.'

Gal. 3:28, 'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.'

Gal. 3:29, 'And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise .'

Gal. 4:7, 'Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.'

As I noted, the death of Jesus on the cross fulfilled the requirements of the Old Testament Law. And...that's exactly what Paul is emphasizing in Col. 2:14.

Galatians was written sometime in 54-55 A.D., years before 70 A.D. and the consummation of the marriage per your paradigm! Anyone from Pentecost on who turned to Christ ARE redeemed and ARE children of God.

God bless---Twospirits

I will post again more of Col 2, which you disregard. Also, everything that you have written would be covered by John the Baptizer in his Baptising in Repentence. Repentence From Sin by this Baptism was aceptable for all of those Before The Cross and still Before The Judgements. When stating that Christ Fulfilled all of The Law you lie to yourself and others because with in the Law are the Judgements of Law. The Death of The Husband free the wife to be Judged by the Law which she lived under. Was she (All Israel) given her Full Judgments of Blessings and Curses at The Cross. She was not.

Col 2:
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,



Unless you proclaim to have a Jewish mother (Henry) then it was not possiable for you to be under the Law of Moses from the timeline of The Cross until the Judgments of The Mosaic Law and of the Ages before.Paul at the time of the writing of Colossians says that the ordinances of The Law are a shadow of Things To Come (future tense from Pauls writings and after The Cross)

[Brother Les]

Henry
As I noted, the death of Jesus on the cross fulfilled the requirements of the Old Testament Law. And...that's exactly what Paul is emphasizing in Col. 2:14.

What 'requirements' do you speak?

Did Jesus say "It is Finished"?

What was 'finished'?


He was not Dead when He said that, so, it was not finished...... in Fulfillment of the many Prophets declarations And the Fulfilling Law Judgments on those who were partners of the OC Marriage covenant.

[Twospirits]

BL wrote,

I will post again more of Col 2, which you disregard.----------

Col 2:
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Unless you proclaim to have a Jewish mother (Henry) then it was not possiable for you to be under the Law of Moses from the timeline of The Cross until the Judgments of The Mosaic Law and of the Ages before.Paul at the time of the writing of Colossians says that the ordinances of The Law are a shadow of Things To Come (future tense from Pauls writings and after The Cross)

Heb. 8:6, “But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.”

The adverb “now” contrasts between the “former” Mosaic administration of the services of the OC. The ministry of the NC was something “he hath obtained” past tense, and was continuing to be possessing. He “is” present tense, the mediator of the everlasting covenant. The OC was still ready to vanish away (Heb. 8:13), and Christ had already become the mediator of the NC of the offering of himself and obtaining our redemption (see chapter 9).

Some full preterists hold that ---we are not under the Law. And if we are not under the Law, then heaven and earth must have past away. They approach the issue as if they had already established a necessity for heaven and earth to pass away and all prophecy to be fulfilled in order for the OC administration to have passed. They place the timing of this in 70 A.D. After the NT writings was completed according to them. The issue they avoid is the reality that the NT writers (e.g. Paul) held that the 1st century church was no longer “under the Law”---long before A.D. 70! Thus there is no necessity for all Bible prophecy to have been fulfilled in order for the saints to be in the NC. Thus under the NC of God's grace this also applies today, even if all Bible prophecy has not been fulfilled.

First let's bring in Col. 2:11-13, “In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein ye are also risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (13) And you, being dead in your sins and the circumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.”

Here Paul correlates their baptism with the OC circumcision (Col. 2:11-12). He says that the circumcision made without hands---not baptism---replaces the circumcision of the flesh. Paul refers to the circumcision of Christ that puts off the uncircumcised body of flesh hiding their life in Christ. Col. 3:9 speaks of this as putting off the old man and his doings. By the body of Christ, being buried with him in baptism—through the law of the NC—they were already dead to the law of the OC. They were uncircumcised but Christ forgave their sins.

This absolutely requires a NC, there is no way that Christ could forgive the sins of Gentiles outside the OC unless they were brought into a new covenant. The scriptures show that it is through Christ's sacrifice “at the Cross” that they are forgiven. Thus clearly they had the NC before A.D. 70—and they were not required to be circumcised or observe other ceremonial traditions of the OC administration.

It is for these reasons above (though more could be given) that Paul is justified in telling Gentiles that they should let no man judge them in meat or in drink, or in respect of holydays, or new moon, or sabbath days. Paul acknowledges that specific ceremonial laws of the OC are not binding on them because they have spiritual ciecumcision in Christ, being baptized into the NC.

“Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”

The pronoun “which” refers to the previous verse. The ceremonial laws of the OC administration are in mind. The word “are” is in the present singular, perhaps describing the whole of the OC in its then present ministry. The ordinances against the saints were taken out of the way, but still remained present in their administration of the Jewish economy until its dissolution in A.D. 70. That administration is a shadow “of the things to come.” The adjective has a future sense to it, but the reality of the shadow is described as the body of Christ in the clause; “but the body is of Christ.” One is insubstantial and the other is markedly substantial. The OC was but a shadow by A.D. 70; where the body of Christ in this context is associated with past work and real fulfillment.

God bless---Twospirits

[Brother Les]

Henry
This absolutely requires a NC, there is no way that Christ could forgive the sins of Gentiles outside the OC unless they were brought into a new covenant. The scriptures show that it is through Christ's sacrifice “at the Cross” that they are forgiven. Thus clearly they had the NC before A.D. 70—and they were not required to be circumcised or observe other ceremonial traditions of the OC administration.

It is for these reasons above (though more could be given) that Paul is justified in telling Gentiles that they should let no man judge them in meat or in drink, or in respect of holydays, or new moon, or sabbath days. Paul acknowledges that specific ceremonial laws of the OC are not binding on them because they have spiritual ciecumcision in Christ, being baptized into the NC.

Very strange how Paul had Timothy circumcised..... by Torah Law
Very strange how Paul kept all of Torah when he was in Jerusalem, Sacrificing at The Temple (during one of the Feasts of The Lord)and going through all the cleansing ceremonies as proclaimed by Torah.

When did Paul do this? After The Cross. After Pauls coversion.

[gilgal]

Very strange how Paul had Titus circumcised..... by Torah Law
Very strange how Paul kept all of Torah when he was in Jerusalem, Sacrificing at The Temple (during one of the Feasts of The Lord)and going through all the cleansing ceremonies as proclaimed by Torah.

When did Paul do this? After The Cross. After Pauls coversion.
Timothy, not Titus.
The Temple wasn't destroyed. It seems like the Temple plays a big role with the Old Covenant because the people had to present their sacrifices there. But when it was destroyed the people stopped sacrificing to God. But the only sacrifice we know of is Jesus Christ.

[Twospirits]

BL wrote,

Very strange how Paul had Titus circumcised..... by Torah Law
Very strange how Paul kept all of Torah when he was in Jerusalem, Sacrificing at The Temple (during one of the Feasts of The Lord)and going through all the cleansing ceremonies as proclaimed by Torah.

When did Paul do this? After The Cross. After Pauls coversion.

Paul did not have Titus circumcised, neither was Titus circumcised.

Paul absolutely refused to let Titus be circumcised in Gal. 2:3-5. He said that the truth of the gospel was at stake. To concede that Titus should be circumcised would be tantamount to abandoning the gospel of justification by faith apart from works of law.

The people Paul resisted in Gal. 2:3-5 were false 'brothers.' The pressure in Gal. 2:3-5 was from professing believers upon another believer to perform a work of law in order to be accepted.

As far as Paul agreeing to what is spoken of in Acts 21:23-25, Paul's principle of life among Jews was one of accommodation. Among the Jews he became as a Jew (as one under the law) as long as the principle of Grace was not at stake (1 Cor. 9:19-22). So when the Jewish brethren suggested that Paul defuse the situation by joining '4 men' who had taken 'a vow,' he consented. He would pay their temple fee and purify himself with them. By doing this he could demonstrate that he was not hostile toward the Mosaic Law or toward the Jews who observed it.

These passages meet all the requirements of the NC in Christ.

'But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.' (Heb. 8:6).

God bless---Twospirits

[Bob May]

Until they, themselves decide to fall away from following Christ and go back to their old life. They were betrothed, but by their own free will they at anytime could go back to their old man, to their harlotry and be divorced from the betrothal pledge. This is the same point that you should agree about many and any Christians today. Being joint heirs with always the possiablility of being cut off for any transgression. By reading Romans 6, The carnal nature of man always bring about sin and sin brings about Death. Death does rein. God says to choose Life and many do not.

You say that Christ redeemed us, but as in reading Hebrews and Galatians of the pleading to not go back to the old man of Sin. This shows that many can and will go back, if not to the Law of Moses, then to the law of the carnal world showing that the redeeming factor of Christ falls short to those who wish it.

Paul's pleading in these two books is to those who were going back under the law after having been freed by Grace from the Old Covenant.
And it is a very serious matter.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

The law never took away sins.

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

That is what was finished at the Cross. The "first," meaning the first Covenant.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Not year by year which never took away sins anyway. But once for all people, for all time, for all sins past present and future.
All means all.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Here is the tough part.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,..

After What? We recieve the knowledge of TRUTH. That came by Jesus Christ.
He brought Truth and Grace. That is the New Covenant he is warning us not to turn away from.

...there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Of course there remaineth no more sacrifice. There was only one in the New Covenant as opposed to the Old Covenant which came every year.


Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:


Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Under Moses law you died. What could possibly be worse??? What is "sorer punishment?
That is what we should expect if we turn back from the "perfect law of liberty" brought by the New Covenant.
The warnings in Galatians and Hebrews are not about turning from the law of Sin and Death but about turning away from the Spirit of Grace.

Ga 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Ga 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Jacob, the old man ("Seeking after God", the "Supplanter") seeks after God but he seeks in the wrong way. By works. And he keeps supplanting or "taking the place" of Israel, God's chosen. Israel knows God in a Spiritual way. Each time he has a direct spiritual experience, Jacob's name changes to Israel.
That is [COLOR="red"]us.
We are to stay in the Spirit and not go back under the law.
We are to correct ourselves when we find ourselves doing so.
To be stablished in Grace, holding fast to the profession of our Faith.

[gilgal]

Paul's pleading in these two books is to those who were going back under the law after having been freed by Grace from the Old Covenant.
And it is a very serious matter.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

The law never took away sins.

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

That is what was finished at the Cross. The "first," meaning the first Covenant.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Not year by year which never took away sins anyway. But once for all people, for all time, for all sins past present and future.
All means all.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Here is the tough part.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,..

After What? We recieve the knowledge of TRUTH. That came by Jesus Christ.
He brought Truth and Grace. That is the New Covenant he is warning us not to turn away from.

...there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Of course there remaineth no more sacrifice. There was only one in the New Covenant as opposed to the Old Covenant which came every year.


Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:


Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Under Moses law you died. What could possibly be worse??? What is "sorer punishment?
That is what we should expect if we turn back from the "perfect law of liberty" brought by the New Covenant.
The warnings in Galatians and Hebrews are not about turning from the law of Sin and Death but about turning away from the Spirit of Grace.

Ga 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Ga 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Jacob, the old man ("Seeking after God", the "Supplanter") seeks after God but he seeks in the wrong way. By works. And he keeps supplanting or "taking the place" of Israel, God's chosen. Israel knows God in a Spiritual way. Each time he has a direct spiritual experience, Jacob's name changes to Israel.
That is [COLOR="red"]us.
We are to stay in the Spirit and not go back under the law.
We are to correct ourselves when we find ourselves doing so.
To be stablished in Grace, holding fast to the profession of our Faith.
I wonder if there is a reason why within the prophecies God refers to Jacob instead of Israel sometimes.

[Brother Les]

Paul did not have Titus circumcised, neither was Titus circumcised.

Paul absolutely refused to let Titus be circumcised in Gal. 2:3-5. He said that the truth of the gospel was at stake. To concede that Titus should be circumcised would be tantamount to abandoning the gospel of justification by faith apart from works of law.

The people Paul resisted in Gal. 2:3-5 were false 'brothers.' The pressure in Gal. 2:3-5 was from professing believers upon another believer to perform a work of law in order to be accepted.

As far as Paul agreeing to what is spoken of in Acts 21:23-25, Paul's principle of life among Jews was one of accommodation. Among the Jews he became as a Jew (as one under the law) as long as the principle of Grace was not at stake (1 Cor. 9:19-22). So when the Jewish brethren suggested that Paul defuse the situation by joining '4 men' who had taken 'a vow,' he consented. He would pay their temple fee and purify himself with them. By doing this he could demonstrate that he was not hostile toward the Mosaic Law or toward the Jews who observed it.

These passages meet all the requirements of the NC in Christ.

'But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.' (Heb. 8:6).

God bless---Twospirits


Typed to fast and had Titus on my mind. Timothy=jewish mother... followed Torah
Titus=Greek.... was never under Torah.

:pop2:

[Bob May]

I wonder if there is a reason why within the prophecies God refers to Jacob instead of Israel sometimes.

When he wrestled with an angel "until the breaking of the day." Gen 32;24

Ge 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Ge 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved

Ge 35:9 And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.
Ge 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

Ge 45:27 And they told him all the words of Joseph, which he had said unto them: and when he saw the wagons which Joseph had sent to carry him, the spirit of Jacob their father revived:
Ge 45:28 And Israel said, It is enough; Joseph my son is yet alive: I will go and see him before I die.

When Jacob has a Spiritual experience or is opperating from a Spiritual stance he is Israel. He is waking up.
The same reason Saul's name changed to Paul after witnessing Jesus on the road to Damascus.

When we witness something from God or realize that Jesus/Joseph is alive there is also a change in our character (name). We opperate from a stance of Grace or favor for a while, long or short, until Jacob, our normal consciousness takes over again.
This is finding favor or Grace in the the sight of God. We see it a lot in Scripture when God calls someone and they respond "Here am I."
You might call it an existential experience.

These men and their experiences and states of consciousness are like signposts along the way. The bible is our roadmap to enlightenment.
In order to really make use of a map you need a "You are Here" reference point. That is what those experiences are if we find ourselves in them.

One of the first things Jesus did when coming out of the wilderness being tempted of the Devil was to go straight to the Synagog and find himself in scripture and read it aloud.

Lu 4:13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.
Lu 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
Lu 4:15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
Lu 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Lu 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Lu 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Lu 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord

We are not Jesus, but we are fellow heirs and of his geneology if we believe.
He told us to follow him. We really have no choice in the matter. Those things apply to us whether we realize it or not. It is better, in my opinion to keep my eyes open to see those things that apply to me in scripture than to miss them and just read it as if it were just a book.

Scripture was written for us, to us and about us.

I'm sure there is a reason in the prophecies as well. The law is prophecy also.
Mt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. So the stories in Genesis are both law and prophets in that sense.

Paul calls the Old Testament the "Oracles of God." They speak to us and give us guidance and answers.
It is difficult to comprehend at first. Especially if you are looking at it from the Jacob perspective.

But one day I was reading thinking about these things and I read,
Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Joh 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.


Taken out of context? Sure, but it spoke to me then. That is how it happens sometimes.

Bob