Play on words

[gilgal]

Isaiah 5:7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

http://allthingshebrew.com/sites/hebrew/_files/image/hebrew-tanakh-verse-isaiah5v7.gif (http://allthingshebrew.com/sites/hebrew/_files/image/hebrew-tanakh-verse-isaiah5v7.gif)
more:
http://allthingshebrew.com/treasuresoftanakh.php

[gilgal]

Amos 8:1-2 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit. And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

http://allthingshebrew.com/sites/hebrew/_files/image/hebrew-tanakh-verse-amos8v1.gif (http://allthingshebrew.com/sites/hebrew/_files/image/hebrew-tanakh-verse-amos8v1.gif)
When I read this in English I would wonder, "How is summer fruits related to the end?"

[duxrow]

Spoiled Fruit?
Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: Matt 3:8

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Mt 7:16

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Mt 7:20

Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. Matt 21:33

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Matt 21:43

Sounds to me like the 'fruit' of the Hebrews was spoiled, and now the 'fruit' of the Gentiles is being given a like amount of time... could be? :-)

[Richard Amiel McGough]

When I read this in English I would wonder, "How is summer fruits related to the end?"


Amos 8:1-2 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit. And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

http://allthingshebrew.com/sites/hebrew/_files/image/hebrew-tanakh-verse-amos8v1.gif (http://allthingshebrew.com/sites/hebrew/_files/image/hebrew-tanakh-verse-amos8v1.gif)


Excellent example of wordplay in the Bible! :thumb:

There are things in the Scriptures that simply cannot be seen in translation.

Such wordplay can also be used to help determine the the original language of parts of the Bible. For example, John the Baptist probably spoke in Aramaic because he made a word play on ABNYM (evenim, stones) and BNYM (benim, children):

Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
There is no such wordplay in the Greek version which uses the words lithon (stones) and tekna (children).

Finding such wordplay is one of the joys of reading the Bible in the Hebrew and Greek.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Spoiled Fruit?
Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: Matt 3:8

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Mt 7:16

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Mt 7:20

Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. Matt 21:33

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Matt 21:43

Sounds to me like the 'fruit' of the Hebrews was spoiled, and now the 'fruit' of the Gentiles is being given a like amount of time... could be? :-)
Where did you find the concept of "like amount of time" in those verses?

Are you presuming that the New Covenant Gospel is as weak as the Old Covenant Law, and will produce "bad fruit?"

[duxrow]

Hi Ram.. Nope, didn't see the 'equal time' concept nec. in the Fruit verses, but rather from the "Times of the Jews & Gentiles" in the NT, as well as the 7 yrs. of Rachel & Leah, and the two dreams of the Pharaoh.

Galatians 3:24 "they were a schoolmaster", inclines me to see the OT as a necessary prerequisite for the NT -- hindsight is valuable for connecting the physical to the figurative, IMO. The 2 Covenants (Gal 4:24) are different (1Cor12:5), but its the NT which leads to the 'Promised Land' of Heaven for those so inclined.. (the 66 Books are One!)

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Ram.. Nope, didn't see the 'equal time' concept nec. in the Fruit verses, but rather from the "Times of the Jews & Gentiles" in the NT, as well as the 7 yrs. of Rachel & Leah, and the two dreams of the Pharaoh.

Galatians 3:24 "they were a schoolmaster", inclines me to see the OT as a necessary prerequisite for the NT -- hindsight is valuable for connecting the physical to the figurative, IMO. The 2 Covenants (Gal 4:24) are different (1Cor12:5), but its the NT which leads to the 'Promised Land' of Heaven for those so inclined.. (the 66 Books are One!)
Oh yes, I understand. That makes sense. But it seems like you are hanging a very large weight on a very small thread! The Bible doesn't actually define the "times of the Gentiles" so folks are free to make up whatever they want depending on their presuppositions. That's why I always focused on the "main and plain" things established by many clear and unambiguous mutually confirming verses when I was a Christian. Of course, there is another aspect of Scripture - the mystical - that is based on intuitions and "hints" in the Bible. And that is perhaps the most important because it is the "living" aspect. But it also is very subjective so you can't go around claiming it is "true" in an objective sense. And this is where folks make the biggest mistake. They mix up the subjective and objective aspects of Scripture.

[duxrow]

:yo:Not small at all, Ram, but scattered all throughout scripture: like Elijah/Elisha, Peter/Paul (Gal 2:7) -- the one I favor is that of the two dreams of the Pharaoh where the cows ate the cows and the corn at the corn.
I was thinking about cows being 'cannibals', and that corn doesn't have mouths--only Ears! Joseph interpreted concerning the 7 yrs. of plenty (first) and then (second) the 7 yrs. of famine. That happened OK, but there's more: similar to the 7 yrs. for Rachel, then Leah -- is how the "bread" was put into the Bible and now we're feeding on that "bread" (like money in the bank, and for sure it's figurative and doesn't fit in every aspect..) The "7's" have worked out to be 2,000 yrs. or 2 "days" reckoned by the Lord.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

:yo:Not small at all, Ram, but scattered all throughout scripture: like Elijah/Elisha, Peter/Paul (Gal 2:7) -- the one I favor is that of the two dreams of the Pharaoh where the cows ate the cows and the corn at the corn.
I was thinking about cows being 'cannibals', and that corn doesn't have mouths--only Ears! Joseph interpreted concerning the 7 yrs. of plenty (first) and then (second) the 7 yrs. of famine. That happened OK, but there's more: similar to the 7 yrs. for Rachel, then Leah -- is how the "bread" was put into the Bible and now we're feeding on that "bread" (like money in the bank, and for sure it's figurative and doesn't fit in every aspect..) The "7's" have worked out to be 2,000 yrs. or 2 "days" reckoned by the Lord.
Hey there Bob, :yo:

How do the pairs like Elijah/Elisha point to time periods of Jew/Gentile? I think they point to the Teacher/Disciple (Rabbi/Talmid) relationship. I wrote about that for one my Spoke 12 articles on 2 Kings and the 12th letter Lamed (To Learn) called Rabbi Jesus And His Twelve Talmidim (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Lamed_Disciples.asp).

I think your post exemplifies the point I was trying to make in my last post. The Bible seems to function for most folks like a Rorschach ink blot. Folks see in it whatever is already in their own minds. Indeed, this is hinted at in a few places, such as when James refers to the "word" as a mirror, or when David says how Yahweh will respond according to our own behavior:

Psalm 18:23 I was also blameless before Him, And I kept myself from my iniquity. 24 Therefore the LORD has recompensed me according to my righteousness, According to the cleanness of my hands in His sight. 25 With the merciful You will show Yourself merciful; With a blameless man You will show Yourself blameless; 26 With the pure You will show Yourself pure; And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd.
The Bible is a big book. Folks can see in it whatever they want, and like like the Boxer said, "disregard the rest." At least it makes for good conversation! :rolleyes:

Great chatting!

[duxrow]

Hey there Bob, :yo:

How do the pairs like Elijah/Elisha point to time periods of Jew/Gentile? I think they point to the Teacher/Disciple (Rabbi/Talmid) relationship.

Sure, I could see that, but when Jesus said that John Baptist was Elijah (for those who could 'receive' it); then I could compare Elisha's record to that of Jesus himself. The TIMES weren't a part of that; I actually go back to seeing the Genesis 2K period as "pre-Law", rather than part of the LAW as many teach. And these differences and similarities have helped too.:)

Elijah -- Elisha - (1Kings17 to 2Kings13)

Elijah and then Elisha were two prophets chosen by God,
They followed one after the other, but not like two peas in a pod.
The differences between them were substantial; they weren't alike at all,
Except in their duty to God, and in the way they obeyed his call.

ELIJAH would call down fire! — Be careful what you say or do,
‘Cause he would prove that God is real, and make it hot for you. :eek:
ELIJAH takes it on himself to see that things get done,
He does it in the Name of God — they didn't yet know of the Son.

But he's always very hungry and gets fed miraculously,
by the ravens and the widow, and the angels by the Juniper tree.
The Word of God hadn't yet been born when ELIJAH walked the earth,
and his hunger would not be abated until the spiritual bread came forth.
So when his job was over and his replacment was on board,
He threw his mantle to Elisha and into the heavens he soared.

‘If you see me taken up', ELIJAH told Elisha,
then the double-portion, that you've asked, is granted...
Sure enough he got his wish, ‘cause he saw ELIJAH go,
and he received the thing for which his heart had panted.

Now ELISHA was completely different — he didn't use fire at all,
It was WATER that he specialized in, and he had a servant at his beck and call.
He had no trouble with food; he healed it and caused it to grow,
His double-portion of the Holy Spirit cured all manner of woe.
The power of the Spirit in ELISHA went deep into his bones,
When a dead man accidentally touched them, he raised right up and ran home! :applause:

Elijah was like John the Baptist, whose ministry introduced Christ,
and Elisha was a type of Jesus, who brings us the Living Water of Life.
Together they're yoked to the chariot of God: they're two birds of a feather,
It's the Old Testament and the New Testament, spiritually harnessed together.
There's more to this story than can be told in verse, and more than meets the eye,
If you ever expect to contend with the horses, don't look for pie in the sky.
The Chariot of Fire that came for Elijah, is the spiritual vessel of GOD,
To bring us the secrets of Scripture, and show how our feet should be shod.

Blessings! :thumb:

[gilgal]

Excellent example of wordplay in the Bible! :thumb:

There are things in the Scriptures that simply cannot be seen in translation.

Such wordplay can also be used to help determine the the original language of parts of the Bible. For example, John the Baptist probably spoke in Aramaic because he made a word play on ABNYM (evenim, stones) and BNYM (benim, children):

Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
There is no such wordplay in the Greek version which uses the words lithon (stones) and tekna (children).

Finding such wordplay is one of the joys of reading the Bible in the Hebrew and Greek.
I wonder what the meaning of summer is. Why is it termed as summer fruits instead of fresh fruits or rotten fruits?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I wonder what the meaning of summer is. Why is it termed as summer fruits instead of fresh fruits or rotten fruits?
It was a vision. Visions in the Bible often use puns.

Amos 8:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit. 2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit [qeytz]. Then said the LORD unto me, The end [qetz] is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.
We see the same style in Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 1:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Jeremiah, what seest thou? And I said, I see a rod of an almond [shaqad] tree. 12 Then said the LORD unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten [shaqad] my word to perform it.
See that? The object shown in the vision is a pun on the central word of the message.

[gilgal]

It was a vision. Visions in the Bible often use puns.

Amos 8:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit. 2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit [qeytz]. Then said the LORD unto me, The end [qetz] is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.
We see the same style in Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 1:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Jeremiah, what seest thou? And I said, I see a rod of an almond [shaqad] tree. 12 Then said the LORD unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten [shaqad] my word to perform it.
See that? The object shown in the vision is a pun on the central word of the message.
Why would it be called summer fruits though? Is it because it's not ripe yet? Because fruits get ripe in the fall.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Why would it be called summer fruits though? Is it because it's not ripe yet? Because fruits get ripe in the fall.
In the Hebrew Bible, there are only two named seasons, summer and winter.
Genesis 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest (qatzir), and cold and heat, and summer (qeytz) and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
Summer was the time of harvest:
Proverbs 10:5 He that gathereth in summer (qeytz) is a wise son: but he that sleepeth in harvest (qetzir) is a son that causeth shame.
These words are found together elsewhere:
Isaiah 16:9 Therefore I will bewail with the weeping of Jazer the vine of Sibmah: I will water thee with my tears, O Heshbon, and Elealeh: for the shouting for thy summer fruits (qeytz) and for thy harvest (qatzir) is fallen.
Here is a link with a little info about the two seasons in the OT:

http://www.bible-history.com/geography/seasons_months_israel.html

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Sure, I could see that, but when Jesus said that John Baptist was Elijah (for those who could 'receive' it); then I could compare Elisha's record to that of Jesus himself. The TIMES weren't a part of that; I actually go back to seeing the Genesis 2K period as "pre-Law", rather than part of the LAW as many teach. And these differences and similarities have helped too.:)

Yeah, I've seen that comparison between John/Jesus and Elijah/Elisha before and I think it has some merit. But it shouldn't be pushed too far. For example, Elijah raised a boy from the dead and did other miracles, whereas John the Baptist "did no miracle" (or at least that's what folks said about him, John 10:41). And more importantly, such parallels are useful for illustrating doctrines that are explicitly taught elsewhere in the Bible, but if folks start using them to make up doctrines then they might as well toss out the Bible because they can make it say whatever they want.

[duxrow]

Yeah, I've seen that comparison between John/Jesus and Elijah/Elisha before and I think it has some merit. But it shouldn't be pushed too far. For example, Elijah raised a boy from the dead and did other miracles, whereas John the Baptist "did no miracle" (or at least that's what folks said about him, John 10:41). And more importantly, such parallels are useful for illustrating doctrines that are explicitly taught elsewhere in the Bible, but if folks start using them to make up doctrines then they might as well toss out the Bible because they can make it say whatever they want.

Making up doctrines? That's not the same as understanding in a different way, or maybe according to the way you've been taught... John21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written".

Now that we've learned that Jesus is "the Word" as well as the Messiah and Promised Son (as Isaac was..) I think we're Expected to be weaned from those old maid stories and pursue the real MEAT of the 66 Books! :thumb:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Making up doctrines? That's not the same as understanding in a different way, or maybe according to the way you've been taught... John21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written".

Now that we've learned that Jesus is "the Word" as well as the Messiah and Promised Son (as Isaac was..) I think we're Expected to be weaned from those old maid stories and pursue the real MEAT of the 66 Books! :thumb:
Yes, that makes sense, but on the other hand, folks can't agree about the main and plain things of the Bible, so anything you "glean" by creative interpretations will have value only to you and other like minded folks. In other words, it won't have any objective value since it's really just "what you want to believe." Now I can very much appreciate using the Bible as a personal "mystical book" into which you can gaze like a divine Rorschach inkblot to gain insights into God, the Universe, and Everything, but then it is not fundamentally different than any other form of divination like Tarot Cards, I Ching, or Tea Leaves. My point of all this is to say that most folks seem to think that the value of the Bible is it's objective truth whereas you are advocating it's value for insights into your own subjectivity. And I think you might be touching the true value of the Bible. It may be that the insistence on it's "literal meaning" and "objective truth" has destroyed it's true value.

Does this make any sense? I would guess that you might want to hold to both literal and mystical interpretations. But I wonder, do you think it matters if a person believes the Bible? Or does it just add to the quality of life for those who believe, but it doesn't really matter?

So many questions! :sCo_hmmthink:

I do love ruminating on them!

:cow: