Why Pray?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I split this thread off from the Are you ready for 2011 thread per a request by CHW.
================================================== ============


I have been following disasters of 2011 closely and a pattern seems to emerge:

Jan - Record floods in Australia snd other parts of the world
Feb - Biggest cyclone in Australia and deadliest earthquake in New Zealand
March - Biggest earthquake and tsunami in Japan and the Fukushima nuclear station incident
April - Among the biggest tornado disaster in the US and growing to be the biggest tornado disaster in the US on record. Record drought and wildfire in Texas.

The question is what next, come May?.....We already have snow disaster (Dec 2010), floods, earthquakes, tsunami, nuclear meltdown, cyclones, tornadoes. Perhaps Fire, drought, food crisis is on the list...Beware. I know nothing much we can do about it but just pray that things will not be so bad :pray::pray:


Why pray? Did God care about the thousands of Christians he killed with the earthquake in Haiti? Would he have spared them if they prayed more? The answer is obviously "no" - God kills people quite randomly, whether they pray or not. Indeed, sometimes he likes to make a special point by specifically targeting Christians while they are praying! I'm talking about the 10,000+ Christians he killed with an earthquake in Lisbon in 1755 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1755_Lisbon_earthquake).He sent the earthquake at 9:40 AM when most everyone was in church to ensure massive casualties amongst Christians. Here's what the wiki articel says:
The earthquake had wide-ranging effects on the lives of the populace and intelligentsia. The earthquake had struck on an important church holiday and had destroyed almost every important church in the city, causing anxiety and confusion amongst the citizens of a staunch and devout Roman Catholic city and country, which had been a major patron of the Church. Theologians and philosophers would focus and speculate on the religious cause and message, seeing the earthquake as a manifestation of the anger of God.
God collapsed the churches upon their heads while they were praying on All Saints' Day! Many atheists and others who didn't go to church were presumably spared. It's no wonder that Christian "theologians and philosophers" were more than a little confused by this "message" supposedly sent by God.

And God did it again (http://www.iowastatedaily.com/news/article_11202002-9b92-5b26-9faa-d2f768529c30.html) to 300 devout worshipers in Peru in 2007 when he collapsed a Catholic church on their heads, killing 50 during mass.

In general, the idea that God is "communicating" through weather and natural disasters is a ludicrous proposition for at least two reasons. First, it is an extremely ineffective way to communicate since there is no way for us to discern between a "message from God" and a "random accident" or even what the "message" is supposed to be. Only an idiot would try to communicate that way. If God is intelligent and wants to communicate, then he would use an intelligent method - "natural disasters" do not suffice. Second, natural disasters are non-specific. They affect pretty much everyone equally. So who then is being "judged" if God is killing innocent children and devout Christians along with those he supposedly "targeted" for "communication?" And worse, sometimes he targets Christians while they are praying in churches and spares the atheists! I really think you need to rethink your ideas about how God acts in the world.

All the best.

[CWH]

I thought you agreed that prayer is the hallmark of a Christian. I am not sure if you now believe in what Jesus said about prayers. If prayer is something not important, then why did Jesus encouraged us to pray? Jesus even went up the mountain to pray. Remember Jesus said, "Heaven and Earth will pass away but my words will never pass away". Do you not believe what Jesus said? Just some examples in which Jesus taught about prayers.

Matthew 5:44
But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Matthew 6:5
[ Prayer ] 'And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.

Matthew 6:6
But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Matthew 6:7
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

Matthew 6:9
'This, then, is how you should pray: '‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,

Matthew 14:23
After he had dismissed them, he went up on a mountainside by himself to pray. Later that night, he was there alone,

Matthew 19:13
[ The Little Children and Jesus ] Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them.

Matthew 21:13
'It is written,' he said to them, '‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’ but you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’ '

Matthew 21:22
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.'

Matthew 24:20
Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

Matthew 26:36
[ Gethsemane ] Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, 'Sit here while I go over there and pray.'

Matthew 26:39
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, 'My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.'

Matthew 26:41
'Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.'

Matthew 26:42
He went away a second time and prayed, 'My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.'

Matthew 26:44
So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I thought you agreed that prayer is the hallmark of a Christian. I am not sure if you now believe in what Jesus said about prayers. If prayer is something not important, then why did Jesus encouraged us to pray? Jesus even went up the mountain to pray. Remember Jesus said, "Heaven and Earth will pass away but my words will never pass away". Do you not believe what Jesus said? Just some examples in which Jesus taught about prayers.

Hey there CHW, :yo:

Yes the Bible says we should pray. And Jesus explicitly said our prayers would be answered. Unfortunately, his statement was false or we have misunderstood it and he didn't really say that our prayers would be answered. What do you believe this verse says?

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
This is a very difficult passage. If you say that it is true, then you must conclude that the reason almost all prayers remain unanswered is because of "lack of faith." But the Bible also says that we are saved by faith. So if God refused to answer almost all prayers because almost all "believers" don't really "believe" then we must also conclude that they don't really believe in Jesus and are not saved. Therefore, either Jesus was wrong, or almost every person who claims to be Christian is not really a believer. Which is it?

All the best,

Richard

[throwback]

Hey there CHW, :yo:

Yes the Bible says we should pray. And Jesus explicitly said our prayers would be answered. Unfortunately, his statement was false or we have misunderstood it and he didn't really say that our prayers would be answered. What do you believe this verse says?

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
This is a very difficult passage. If you say that it is true, then you must conclude that the reason almost all prayers remain unanswered is because of "lack of faith." But the Bible also says that we are saved by faith. So if God refused to answer almost all prayers because almost all "believers" don't really "believe" then we must also conclude that they don't really believe in Jesus and are not saved. Therefore, either Jesus was wrong, or almost every person who claims to be Christian is not really a believer. Which is it?

All the best,

Richard

Wasn't the statement of Jesus in Matthew 21:21-22 made to his disciples specifically? Would it not be wrong for us who live 2000 years later to read ourselves into this statement of Jesus just as it would be an error for us to expect the promises made to them in Luke 22:28-30 to be applicable to us?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Wasn't the statement of Jesus in Matthew 21:21-22 made to his disciples specifically? Would it not be wrong for us who live 2000 years later to read ourselves into this statement of Jesus just as it would be an error for us to expect the promises made to them in Luke 22:28-30 to be applicable to us?
First, let me say "welcome to our forum!"

:welcome:

It's great to have you here. You have already made many valuable contributions to our conversations.

Now as for your comment: I agree that the statement was made to the disciples, and I agree it is very important to discern between statements that applied only to the folks directly addressed and statements that are intended for all Christians throughout all time. It's easy to see why Luke 22:28-30 does not apply to all Christians - Christ specifically limited his statements to those who had "continued with [him] through [his] temptations." There is no such clear limitation in his promise that God would answer the prayers of those who "ask in prayer, believing" (Matt 21:22), and Christians have traditionally understood this as a promise to all believers (though they then had to explain away why it wasn't true). I really don't think we can solve this problem by limiting the promise to the first century disciples because we have similar statements that explicitly apply to "he that believeth" throughout all generations:
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
This promise is no more true than the one in Matthew 21:22 or any of the other verses that promise supernatural powers and healings to believers such as 1 Cor 12.

I simply cannot deny the truth on this matter. All the evidence indicates that Christians are no different than unbelievers when it comes to answered prayers. They simply do not have their prayers answers as a general rule. Sure, every believer believes God has answered their prayers at times, but that's because of selective memory and wishful thinking and the occasional coincidence. Any rigorous study will show that the prayers of Christians for objective things like health, wealth, love - all the fundamental interests of this life - are simply left unanswered. A particularly striking fact is that God never answers prayers for the restoration of amputated limbs.

All the best,

Richard

[CWH]

I have created a new thread on Why Pray. This is a topic on the use of prayer as initiated by RAM is discussed in my thread "Ready for 2011" which I feel is way out of the scope of the main thread. RAM, please transfer those posts that we and throwback discussed related to prayer from "Ready for 2011" into this new thread....thanks.

I found a good article in the internet on the topic of why pray which I hope can help us in understanding the uses of prayer. Hopefully, that will instil the need to pray even though some people feels that prayer is useless as God never answer prayers:

http://www.believers.org/believe/bel203.htm

Why Pray?
Prayer is communication with God. Prayer includes listening, discussion, and giving thanks -- not just asking for things.

There are three reasons to pray: for God's benefit, for your benefit, and for the benefit of others.

Relationship With God
Relationship is dependent on communication. Your relationship with the Lord, or anyone, will never grow and develop without communication.

1 CORINTHIANS 1:9 NKJ
9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

God desires your fellowship. He wants to have you spend time with Him.

REVELATION 3:20 NKJ
20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Prayer is a privilege. We enjoy the presence of those who love us, especially when we also love them. God loves you more than anyone else does.

Become Like Him
As we spend time focused on God, in His presence, we change into His likeness.

2 CORINTHIANS 3:18 NKJ
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image. . . .

The more time you spend around someone, the more you get to know them. You begin to know what they like and dislike, and how they think. When you spend time with the Lord in prayer, you get to know Him. Spending time with someone is the only way to build a relationship.

We need to keep God central in our life. Otherwise, we will miss His plan. Because the world system has distorted our thinking, we must renew our minds. Renewing your mind is a process that takes time. Spending time with God speeds up the process.

Jesus, Our Example, Prayed
Jesus prayed and He is our example. If prayer was necessary for Jesus -- how much more so for us.

JOHN 13:15 NKJ
15 "For I have given you an example. . . .

LUKE 6:12 NKJ
12 . . . He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.

MARK 1:35 NKJ
35 . . . a long while before daylight, He went out and departed to a solitary place; and there He prayed.

LUKE 5:16 NKJ
16 So He Himself often withdrew into the wilderness and prayed.

Acknowledges Dependence
Praying expresses our dependence on God. Prayer helps us remember that we can do nothing of significance without Him.

Talking with God forces us to honestly face our situation -- for we know we cannot fool God.

Prayer is a way of humbling yourself. God resists the proud but blesses the humble (James 4:6).

Prayer keeps us "connected" with God. It stops us from busy activity so we can focus on God.

Time spent in prayer helps us to stay tuned-in spiritually -- remaining sensitive to God.

JOHN 15:4-5 NKJ
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Pride goes before destruction (Proverbs 16:18). We should not do anything without checking with God. Receiving direction from God is the greatest help you can get. If we fail to seek God's help, we are headed for trouble, because the devil sets traps to destroy us.

Prayer is the opposite of doing things by yourself. Prayer is hard on pride. Proud people do not pray much.

God can do more in one minute than you can do in a lifetime.

Teach Us To Pray
Jesus obviously impressed His disciples with His prayer life, and the importance of prayer. They asked Him to teach them to pray -- the only thing recorded that they ever asked Jesus to teach them.

LUKE 11:1 NKJ
1 And it came to pass, as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, that one of His disciples said to Him, "Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples."

Build Yourself Up
ISAIAH 40:31 NKJ
31 But those who wait on the Lord shall renew their strength. . . .

LUKE 22:46 NKJ
46 . . . "pray, lest you enter into temptation."

Prayer is a spiritual exercise, and strengthens you spiritually. One type of prayer is praying in tongues, or allowing your spirit to pray, without using your mind. According to the Bible, one of the many benefits of praying in the Spirit is to edify, or build up, yourself.

JUDE 1:20 NKJ
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

Edifying yourself is not selfish because only strong people are able to help others. Edifying yourself becomes selfish only when done without regard for others.

1 CORINTHIANS 14:4,14-15 NKJ
4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself. . . .
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is the result then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. . . .

Change Things
We have authority in our domain and can choose to invite God's involvement -- or not.

EZEKIEL 22:30 NKJ
30 "So I sought for a man among them who would make a wall, and stand in the gap before Me on behalf of the land, that I should not destroy it; but I found no one.

JOHN 16:23-24 NKJ
23 ". . . Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you.
24 "Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.

JOHN 14:13-14 NKJ
13 "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 "If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

Christ has delegated a certain amount of His authority in the earth to His Body, the church. Our decisions as believers -- which we can express in prayer -- make a difference in our lives and others' lives.

MARK 11:24 NKJ
24 ". . . whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them.

Blessings Promised
JEREMIAH 33:3 NKJ
3 `Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.'

2 CHRONICLES 7:14 NKJ
14 "if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

PSALM 50:15 NKJ
15 Call upon Me in the day of trouble; I will deliver you, and you shall glorify Me."

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I have created a new thread on Why Pray. This is a topic on the use of prayer as initiated by RAM is discussed in my thread "Ready for 2011" which I feel is way out of the scope of the main thread. RAM, please transfer those posts that we and throwback discussed related to prayer from "Ready for 2011" into this new thread....thanks.

You are most welcome! :yo: I'm happy to oblige.



I found a good article in the internet on the topic of why pray which I hope can help us in understanding the uses of prayer. Hopefully, that will instil the need to pray even though some people feels that prayer is useless as God never answer prayers:

http://www.believers.org/believe/bel203.htm

Great! This will give us a chance to systematically review the common Christian teachings on this topic. But I must ask - why did you ignore the points I made in my posts above?



Why Pray?
Prayer is communication with God. Prayer includes listening, discussion, and giving thanks -- not just asking for things.

There are three reasons to pray: for God's benefit, for your benefit, and for the benefit of others.

Relationship With God
Relationship is dependent on communication. Your relationship with the Lord, or anyone, will never grow and develop without communication.

1 CORINTHIANS 1:9 NKJ
9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

God desires your fellowship. He wants to have you spend time with Him.

REVELATION 3:20 NKJ
20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Prayer is a privilege. We enjoy the presence of those who love us, especially when we also love them. God loves you more than anyone else does.

Become Like Him
As we spend time focused on God, in His presence, we change into His likeness.

2 CORINTHIANS 3:18 NKJ
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image. . . .

The more time you spend around someone, the more you get to know them. You begin to know what they like and dislike, and how they think. When you spend time with the Lord in prayer, you get to know Him. Spending time with someone is the only way to build a relationship.

We need to keep God central in our life. Otherwise, we will miss His plan. Because the world system has distorted our thinking, we must renew our minds. Renewing your mind is a process that takes time. Spending time with God speeds up the process.

Jesus, Our Example, Prayed
Jesus prayed and He is our example. If prayer was necessary for Jesus -- how much more so for us.

JOHN 13:15 NKJ
15 "For I have given you an example. . . .

LUKE 6:12 NKJ
12 . . . He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.

MARK 1:35 NKJ
35 . . . a long while before daylight, He went out and departed to a solitary place; and there He prayed.

LUKE 5:16 NKJ
16 So He Himself often withdrew into the wilderness and prayed.

Acknowledges Dependence
Praying expresses our dependence on God. Prayer helps us remember that we can do nothing of significance without Him.

Talking with God forces us to honestly face our situation -- for we know we cannot fool God.

Prayer is a way of humbling yourself. God resists the proud but blesses the humble (James 4:6).

Prayer keeps us "connected" with God. It stops us from busy activity so we can focus on God.

Time spent in prayer helps us to stay tuned-in spiritually -- remaining sensitive to God.

JOHN 15:4-5 NKJ
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Pride goes before destruction (Proverbs 16:18). We should not do anything without checking with God. Receiving direction from God is the greatest help you can get. If we fail to seek God's help, we are headed for trouble, because the devil sets traps to destroy us.

Prayer is the opposite of doing things by yourself. Prayer is hard on pride. Proud people do not pray much.

God can do more in one minute than you can do in a lifetime.

Teach Us To Pray
Jesus obviously impressed His disciples with His prayer life, and the importance of prayer. They asked Him to teach them to pray -- the only thing recorded that they ever asked Jesus to teach them.

LUKE 11:1 NKJ
1 And it came to pass, as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, that one of His disciples said to Him, "Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples."

Build Yourself Up
ISAIAH 40:31 NKJ
31 But those who wait on the Lord shall renew their strength. . . .

LUKE 22:46 NKJ
46 . . . "pray, lest you enter into temptation."

Prayer is a spiritual exercise, and strengthens you spiritually. One type of prayer is praying in tongues, or allowing your spirit to pray, without using your mind. According to the Bible, one of the many benefits of praying in the Spirit is to edify, or build up, yourself.

JUDE 1:20 NKJ
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

Edifying yourself is not selfish because only strong people are able to help others. Edifying yourself becomes selfish only when done without regard for others.

1 CORINTHIANS 14:4,14-15 NKJ
4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself. . . .
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is the result then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. . . .

Why did you waste our time with all those quotes? They have absolutely nothing to do with the issue I raised in the opening post.



Change Things
We have authority in our domain and can choose to invite God's involvement -- or not.

EZEKIEL 22:30 NKJ
30 "So I sought for a man among them who would make a wall, and stand in the gap before Me on behalf of the land, that I should not destroy it; but I found no one.

JOHN 16:23-24 NKJ
23 ". . . Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you.
24 "Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.

JOHN 14:13-14 NKJ
13 "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 "If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

Christ has delegated a certain amount of His authority in the earth to His Body, the church. Our decisions as believers -- which we can express in prayer -- make a difference in our lives and others' lives.

MARK 11:24 NKJ
24 ". . . whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them.

Alright - you just AMPLIFIED the problem a thousand fold! Look at the red bold quotes. I was a Christian for nearly two decades. I met thousands of very very devout Christians from all over the world. I HAVE NEVER MET A SINGLE CHRISTIAN FOR WHOM THOSE VERSES WERE TRUE!

This was my point in the opening post Cheow. Do you understand it? Do you see the problem? You and I and every Christian knows that those verses are not true. God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers.

All the best,

Richard

[CWH]

You are most welcome! :yo: I'm happy to oblige.


Great! This will give us a chance to systematically review the common Christian teachings on this topic. But I must ask - why did you ignore the points I made in my posts above?


Why did you waste our time with all those quotes? They have absolutely nothing to do with the issue I raised in the opening post.


Alright - you just AMPLIFIED the problem a thousand fold! Look at the red bold quotes. I was a Christian for nearly two decades. I met thousands of very very devout Christians from all over the world. I HAVE NEVER MET A SINGLE CHRISTIAN FOR WHOM THOSE VERSES WERE TRUE!

This was my point in the opening post Cheow. Do you understand it? Do you see the problem? You and I and every Christian knows that those verses are not true. God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers.

All the best,

Richard

I did not ignore your questions, I thought it was fairly well answered by throwback. Some verses referred to the apostles and not to us. BTW, it is not an easy question to answer especially with someone who hardly have been blessed by answered prayers. As for myself, i can attest that some of my prayers were answered... probably 20% of all my prayers.

I tought that lik that I provided is good in answering some of your doubts about prayers and why God may not answered prayers. I thought the opening part is good which says that prayer is not necessary things we asked from God for our self benefits:


Prayer is communication with God. Prayer includes listening, discussion, and giving thanks -- not just asking for things.

In fact, I was hoping and praying that the link I provided will make you get back on your knees and pray....I guess I have failed in my prayers. Well, the article did states that Proud people hardly pray. Prayer should not always be selfish. I personally believe that prayer maintained your relationship with God and it doesn't matter if the prayers are answered or not. People who hardly or doubtfully pray to God is like a couple trying to maintain their love relationship but yet do not communicate or interact with each other. Not believing in prayer is like not obeying what Jesus taught about prayer.

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I did not ignore your questions, I thought it was fairly well answered by throwback. Some verses referred to the apostles and not to us. BTW, it is not an easy question to answer especially with someone who hardly have been blessed by answered prayers. As for myself, i can attest that some of my prayers were answered... probably 20% of all my prayers.

I tought that lik that I provided is good in answering some of your doubts about prayers and why God may not answered prayers. I thought the opening part is good which says that prayer is not necessary things we asked from God for our self benefits:



In fact, I was hoping and praying that the link I provided will make you get back on your knees and pray....I guess I have failed in my prayers. Well, the article did states that Proud people hardly pray. Prayer should not always be selfish. I personally believe that prayer maintained your relationship with God and it doesn't matter if the prayers are answered or not. People who hardly or doubtfully pray to God is like a couple trying to maintain their love relationship but yet do not communicate or interact with each other. Not believing in prayer is like not obeying what Jesus taught about prayer.

Many Blessings.
Ahhh ... don't worry about "failing" to get me to pray again. When I was a Christian, prayer was usually about communion with God rather than asking him for things. But there were many times when there were things like injuries and other health problems I prayed for without any result. And that's the issue, if we were not supposed to be relying on God for physical things like health, food, mates, money, homes, and all that, then why does the Bible tell us we should??? That's the problem. We all know that one of the primary purposes of prayer is "communion" with God. So that's not the issue because there is no way to know if God is really there or not. So the real issue is the fact that the lives of Christians are no different than the lives of atheists in terms of anything that we can see and measure. In other words, it appears that the universe would be unchanged if God just plain "disappeared" today. If you disagree, then you need to say what would be different if there were no God. I can't think of anything that would change. The physical laws would remain - the sun would rise and set, water would boil at 100 Celsius, the moon would continue in its orbit.

Tell me - is there anything in the objective, measurable universe that would change if there were no God?

Thanks!

All the best.

[CWH]

Ahhh ... don't worry about "failing" to get me to pray again. When I was a Christian, prayer was usually about communion with God rather than asking him for things. But there were many times when there were things like injuries and other health problems I prayed for without any result. And that's the issue, if we were not supposed to be relying on God for physical things like health, food, mates, money, homes, and all that, then why does the Bible tell us we should??? That's the problem. We all know that one of the primary purposes of prayer is "communion" with God. So that's not the issue because there is no way to know if God is really there or not. So the real issue is the fact that the lives of Christians are no different than the lives of atheists in terms of anything that we can see and measure. In other words, it appears that the universe would be unchanged if God just plain "disappeared" today. If you disagree, then you need to say what would be different if there were no God. I can't think of anything that would change. The physical laws would remain - the sun would rise and set, water would boil at 100 Celsius, the moon would continue in its orbit.

Tell me - is there anything in the objective, measurable universe that would change if there were no God?

Thanks!

All the best.

Well, in my thread of Problem solving ( http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1096 ), I did indicated that if praying, repentance and fasting failed, then the problem might be you. I think your health problems may be caused by weight, unhealthy diet, sedentary lifestyle, stress etc.

I did mentioned in my thread "why is there a 2,000 year gap" that God may be temporary absent so as to let ourselves run our own human world just to show us that running our lives without God will only result in disasters and He will come back one day to teach us how to run our world properly. I believe like a loving father, He won't leave us alone and helpless and may have help us invisibly without us even realizing it. Therefore, I am sure many happy and successful things that have happened in our lives without us praying for them may have happened as a result of God's invisible interventions. Sometimes God knows what you want before you ask of Him. Sometimes we need to ask ourselves, do things happened due to co-incidences or luck or by chance....or is it due to God's invisible interventions? Do bad things happened as a result of God's intervention forcing us to change for the better?... and so that such bad things will not happen again?

"Tell me - is there anything in the objective, measurable universe that would change if there were no God?" To answer your question, if something is objective and measurable, it means it exists by intelligent design. Do you expect something that exists by random chance to be objective and measurable?

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Well, in my thread of Problem solving ( http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1096 ), I did indicated that if praying, repentance and fasting failed, then the problem might be you. I think your health problems may be caused by weight, unhealthy diet, sedentary lifestyle, stress etc.

Sorry CHW, but that's ridiculous. God does not answer anyone's prayers for things like restoring amputated limbs and other things that can be objectively verified. When you say that God answers "20%" of your prayers, I know you are not talking about real things that could be verified, but rather personal things that you privately think and feel he answered. I know this as an absolute fact: God does not, as a general rule, answer the prayers of anyone. Think of all the sick people at a Benny Hinn carnival. There are hundreds of people in the audience with real maladies like MS that keep them in wheel chairs. He never heals any of them. NEVER! He's a scam artist, yet thousands and thousands of people believe in him and give him millions and millions of dollars. I know that he is a total fake because Hank Hanegraaff asked him for his three best confirmed miracles, and not one of them stood up under scrutiny.

So please deal with the facts of reality. It is a grave error to pretend that God does things he does not do.

And as for my "health" issues. I was talking specifically about a time when I was carrying one of my sons up a hill on my shoulders and one of my calf muscles exploded. I stopped and prayed for God to heal it, and he ignored me so I was hobbled for about six weeks. And another time another son was very constipated and in pain. so I prayed for God to heal him and again he ignored me and let my son suffer and have his 8 year old faith challenged since he saw that God does not really answer prayers. None of this had anything to do with sin in my life or sedentary life style or anything like that. It is a simple fact that God does not, as a general rule, answer anyone's prayers. There is no way to argue against this because it is a fact of reality. I've known thousands of Christians over a span of decades, and I've never seen anyone's prayers regularly answered. And the times when folks thought their prayers were "answered" is was usually just a coincidence, though I will admit there are a few rare instances that still appear to be valid. But that would account for about 0.5% of all prayers at best - the number is so small it is probably just the result of random chance. There CERTAINLY is no evidence of a "Father-like God" who actually watches over Christians. On the contrary, any statistical measure will show that accidents, sickness, and death happen to Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and Atheist in equal measure. There is no evidence of any God "overlooking" the lives of Christians. Sorry. But these are the facts. If you disagree, please provide some objective evidence supporting your claim.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Some believe that "Prayer
is that Power".unknowing it is there faith in Prayer that opens the Power of believeing without
the suggested Doubt" in the latter sense, with unbelief or a sense of uncertainty.

Mark|11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto
this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and
shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things
which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Matthew|14:30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid;
and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
Matthew|14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and
caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore
didst thou doubt?

"The case is the same in other instances: Doubt, Vanity, Wrath,
Envy, Lust, Shame, Enmity, every one of them occasions thoughts
suitable to its own nature. And so does every sinful temper of which
the human mind is capable.: It suffices to observe, that as many
evil tempers find a place in any soul, so many ways that soul will
depart from God .We will understand the very springs of thought;
and know on which the imagination, the understanding, and every
other faculty of the mind more immediately depends on the seven I have listed.
And hereby they know how, by affecting those, to affect the operations dependent on
them. Add to this, that they can inject a thousand thoughts, without
any of the preceding means; it being as natural for spirit to act
upon spirit, as for matter to act upon matter. These things being
considered, we cannot admire that our thought so often wanders from
any point which we have in view. And the same we may observe of
those which are suggested or injected by the devil. When they
minister to any earthly or devilish temper, (which they do, whenever
we give place to them, and thereby make them our own,) then they are
equally sinful with the tempers to which they minister.
The amazingly large percentage of human disease and suffering which
is directly traceable to worry, fear, conflict, immorality,
dissipation, - to unwholesome thinking and unclean living. The
sincere acceptance of the principles and teachings of Christ with
respect to the life of mental peace and joy, the life of unselfish
thought and clean living, would at once wipe out more than half the
difficulties , diseases, and sorrows of the human race. In other
words,I believe one half of the present affliction of mankind could
be prevented by the tremendous prophylactic power of actually living
up to the persona and practical spirit of the real teachings of
Christ. The teachings of Jesus applied to our modern civilization -
understandingly applied, not merely nominally accepted - would so
purify, uplift, and vitalize us. Some day man may awake to the fact
that the teachings of Christ are potent and powerful in preventing
and curing disease. Some day our boasted scientific development, as
regards to mental and moral improvement, may indeed catch up with the
teachings of the son of God.

But what do I know? . Lloyd.
Hey there Lloyd,

Are those your words, or are you quoting someone else? If the latter, please provide the source.

Thanks!

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Sorry CHW, but that's ridiculous. God does not answer anyone's prayers for things like restoring amputated limbs and other things that can be objectively verified. When you say that God answers "20%" of your prayers, I know you are not talking about real things that could be verified, but rather personal things that you privately think and feel he answered. I know this as an absolute fact: God does not, as a general rule, answer the prayers of anyone. Think of all the sick people at a Benny Hinn carnival. There are hundreds of people in the audience with real maladies like MS that keep them in wheel chairs. He never heals any of them. NEVER! He's a scam artist, yet thousands and thousands of people believe in him and give him millions and millions of dollars. I know that he is a total fake because Hank Hanegraaff asked him for his three best confirmed miracles, and not one of them stood up under scrutiny.

So please deal with the facts of reality. It is a grave error to pretend that God does things he does not do.

And as for my "health" issues. I was talking specifically about a time when I was carrying one of my sons up a hill on my shoulders and one of my calf muscles exploded. I stopped and prayed for God to heal it, and he ignored me so I was hobbled for about six weeks. And another time another son was very constipated and in pain. so I prayed for God to heal him and again he ignored me and let my son suffer and have his 8 year old faith challenged since he saw that God does not really answer prayers. None of this had anything to do with sin in my life or sedentary life style or anything like that. It is a simple fact that God does not, as a general rule, answer anyone's prayers. There is no way to argue against this because it is a fact of reality. I've known thousands of Christians over a span of decades, and I've never seen anyone's prayers regularly answered. And the times when folks thought their prayers were "answered" is was usually just a coincidence, though I will admit there are a few rare instances that still appear to be valid. But that would account for about 0.5% of all prayers at best - the number is so small it is probably just the result of random chance. There CERTAINLY is no evidence of a "Father-like God" who actually watches over Christians. On the contrary, any statistical measure will show that accidents, sickness, and death happen to Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and Atheist in equal measure. There is no evidence of any God "overlooking" the lives of Christians. Sorry. But these are the facts. If you disagree, please provide some objective evidence supporting your claim.

:pop2: