Capitalism vs. Socialism

[TheForgiven]

Greetings everyone. I started a Thread complaining about BIG OIL, but the discussion turned into a debate about Capitalism vs. Socialism (or communism). This may turn out to be a good discussion.

I've been a Conservative Republican for most of my life. For years I’ve always felt that the moral standards of most Conservative Republicans are based on a Christian standard. However true some aspects of CR’s they may be, I’d freely admit that this theory may require reconsideration. We know that most Democrats agree on issues such as abortion (or pro-choice), while CR’s tend to be more 'pro-life'. In the same way, most Democrats oppose capital punishment (death penalty), while the RC’s believe that capital punishment to be justifiable. So I find it ironic that RC’s are generally against abortion, while at the same time, are very adamant about capital punishment.

Despite the moral differences of pro-choice or pro-life, let’s discuss the real issue on hand. Between the two diplomatic sides, which is morally supportive of human rights and the benefit of life for all? Given the attitudes of the CR’s that I’ve noted this past decade, I have lean towards the Democrats. Republican’s preach about the benefits of Capitalism, and often resort to 'cliché’s' such as:

1. Patients and hard work may result in wealth
2. A good education may lead to lots of wealth
3. Lowering taxes on Corporations increases jobs
4. The individual is responsible for his/her own destiny

While all of these may be true, I would not say that most Corporations are established from 'a lot of hard work'. Take Big Oil for instance. Were any of its executives or CEO’s trained into becoming professional executives for the Oil Industry? How many of them were handed a silver spoon from a family ran business? How man of resorted to public extortion to achieve the profits they’ve accumulated over the past decade? What about other businesses such as the automotive industry? Better yet, what about the banks?

Capitalism basically believes that all men have a right to the highest degree of profit by any means possible. Here’s an example. If a person wants to cell a candy bar that only cost him 10 cents to make, for the price of $5.00 dollars, and the public is willing to pay it, then this person makes $4.90 in profit. Sound good? Let’s go even further. Let’s assume that the 10 cents is the cost of material, and the person he hired to make the candy bar cost the owner $1.00 dollar for his labor, and the person sells the candy bar for $6.00 dollars, this means that the owner profits $4.90. As you can see, the candy bar was sold weigh too high for the cost of making it, including labor. Of course people would not be willing to pay that much money for a candy bar, so the price would be reduced until there is still the possibility for profit. But then again, a candy bar is not something needed.

We’ve heard from the Republican’s that the lower class is guilty of taking on loans that they could not afford. This was nothing more than a 'spin' to place blame on the public, and not the financial institution. I hate to say this, but Michael Moore was right on the money when he confronted Shawn Hanity on this issue. The problem was not people assuming loans they could not afford; the problem was with people failing to catch the hidden agenda of the lending agency already planning to place these people in serious financial jeopardy. Some unfamiliar with a 50 page contract would not have a clue as to how many loop holes are involved in purchasing a home. One such scam was the bloated value of a house. A home ordinarily only worth $130,000.00 dollars may end up being bloated on paper, as being worth $145,000 dollars. So a Real-estate Agent will purposely bloat the value of a home in order to get the lower-income person into the home without the usual 20 percent down-payment. The next scam is on the interest rate. Most home loan victims were tricked into variable interest rate loans. At first they start off with low monthly payments. Before you know it, the interest rate goes up…and up….and up, to the point that it’s impossible to pay for. Eventually, the home ends up being foreclosed.

The FBI reported in 2008 that 80% percent of all foreclosed homes were a direct result of lending practices of the Banks. That is a lot of rip-off’s taking place! But you see, that is Capitalism. Capitalism teaches that it has the right to profit by any means necessary as long the customer is willing to pay for it. Should these people have bought a home? Well yes; a home is something we all need. And quite frankly, homes should not be so expensive; more importantly, homes should not require a 30 year mortgage. That kid of entrapment robs the economy of disposable incomes, and makes the Banks too rich. And THAT is the reason why our economy is in a recession. Too many Corporations with all the power are robbing the working class using tactics that are very difficult to deal with, yet you need a home; you need a car; you need electricity; you need food. And that’s what our society and been plagued with for decades; greedy corporations using our 'needs' to capitalize on their profits.

I believe we are seeing the end of Capitalism, and thank God for that.

Joe

[Didymus]

I agree with you 100%. Here's why. Some time ago I wrote an article called "Was Jesus A Capitalist?"

Here it is:


Was Jesus a capitalist? First, let me give some background. This past weekend (9-12-09) there was a taxpayer march on Washington. The only thing that people had in common, is that they all see that this country is going in the wrong direction. A fair amount of them was protesting the socialist direction the Obama Administration is taking this country at warp speed. All of them were protestin the runaway spending in Washington.

Many of them claimed to be Christians. They touted the virtues of free-market capitalism. I came away from watching the event on C-SPAN, that those who said they were Christians, thought that Jesus was a capitalist. And that is what this article is about.

If Jesus was a capitalist, would he tell the rich ruler to sell everything he had and give to the poor. What Jesus said seems to be more a mandate for the re-distribution of wealth. And Jesus thought that we should pay taxes. "Give to Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's." He said that after being showed a coin and asking who's likeness was on the coin. Then Jesus chased those engaged in capitalistic endeavors out of the temple claiming, "You have turned My Father's house into a den of thieves." And, finally, Jesus said, "the love of money is the root of all evil." When you consider these facts, how can anyone conclude that Jesus was a capitalist?

What principles can we establish for today from what Jesus said and did?

1) Rich people should help poor people.

2) We should pay our taxes.

3) Buying and selling for profit must not happen in the church.

4) We must not be greedy (lover of money).

These principles suggests that Jesus would not be a capitalist today. I have no doubt that if Jesus was a politician He would be condemned by the political right of being a liberal. But then, I don't believe that Jesus would ever stoop so low as to be a politician. He might be a community organizer, or a liberal activist. No way Jesus would fit into the conservative crowd of today.

If Jesus was not a capitalist, neither should His followers be.

I also wrote an article called "Christian Communism." It's a little longer, so I can post that elsewhere.

:ranger:

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Some visiting this thread might be interested in other perspectives for consideration.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig11/barr-j1.1.1.html

http://www.anti-state.com/redford/redford4.html

The first one interprets the render unto Ceasar passage as a reply to the Scribes, who were sent by the Pharisees to trick him, into a question and response to reveal and proclaim the allegiance of their hearts; which they did a day or two later by proclaiming; 'we have no king but Caesar'.

This latter one depicts Christ as an individualist, and his followers would then be a collective 'body' of that individualism

[CWH]

I believe Jesus is a non-monetarist and the kingdom of heaven uses a non-monetary system. When we lived in a non-monetary world, everyone of us will be living like billionaires....will you believe it? There will be no rich or poor but living like billionaires...will you believe it? There will be no crime, no cost, no scam, no poverty, no buy and sell in a non-monetary system...will you believe it? No currency and the only currency is brotherly love. I know it is difficult for many of us to envisage such a non-monetary utopian world as we all have been used to living a a monetary world. See my post on will we use money in heaven?

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1346

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I believe Jesus is a non-monetarist and the kingdom of heaven uses a non-monetary system. When we lived in a non-monetary world, everyone of us will be living like billionaires....will you believe it? There will be no rich or poor but living like billionaires...will you believe it? There will be no crime, no cost, no scam, no poverty, no buy and sell in a non-monetary system...will you believe it? No currency and the only currency is brotherly love. I know it is difficult for many of us to envisage such a non-monetary utopian world as we all have been used to living a a monetary world. See my post on will we use money in heaven?

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1346

Many Blessings.
I agree that there will be a non-monetary society in the future, assuming we humans successfully navigate past our self-destructive tendencies caused by a lack of respect of others. Indeed, our better minds are already presenting the pattern to us in fiction. Case in point, Star Trek the Next Generation had a non-monetary society. But they had not all transcended the selfish (fleshly) mind that causes division and crime. Still, they realized that money is useless in a true meritocracy where children are raised in healthy environments with respect for both self and others.

As for your concept of "heaven" - I think it is in error. It sounds like supra-naturalism , that is, that "heaven" will be more or less just like this world on a "grand" scale. This is in contrast with the true nature of "heaven" which is the place of the "spirit" as opposed to "earth" which is the physical plane, the place of the "body." Thus the united concept of "heaven and earth" represents the two "planes" of existence known as spirit (heaven) and matter (earth). This encompasses the broad fundamental duality of mind/body aka spirit/matter.

[Didymus]

I believe Jesus is a non-monetarist and the kingdom of heaven uses a non-monetary system. When we lived in a non-monetary world, everyone of us will be living like billionaires....will you believe it? There will be no rich or poor but living like billionaires...will you believe it? There will be no crime, no cost, no scam, no poverty, no buy and sell in a non-monetary system...will you believe it? No currency and the only currency is brotherly love. I know it is difficult for many of us to envisage such a non-monetary utopian world as we all have been used to living a a monetary world. See my post on will we use money in heaven?

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1346

Many Blessings.

If Jesus was non-monetarist, why did he pay his taxes?

:ranger:

[CWH]

If Jesus was non-monetarist, why did he pay his taxes?

:ranger:

Did Jesus paid taxes? We presumed He did. Where did the money came from? If He can turned water to wine, He could turn anything to money. Obviously, in the monetary world, you will need to use money and in a non-monetary world, you don't need to use money. When on earth, we presumed Jesus need to use money but when in heaven, money is not needed.

He and His apostles could have become billionaires by raising the dead, cure the sick and drove out demons, why didn't they want to make those money? The main reason was because they believe in a non-monetary system and their goal was to enter into the kingdom of heaven. You cannot serve both God and mammon.

Many Blessings.

[CWH]

[QUOTE=RAM;30377]I agree that there will be a non-monetary society in the future, assuming we humans successfully navigate past our self-destructive tendencies caused by a lack of respect of others. Indeed, our better minds are already presenting the pattern to us in fiction. Case in point, Star Trek the Next Generation had a non-monetary society. But they had not all transcended the selfish (fleshly) mind that causes division and crime. Still, they realized that money is useless in a true meritocracy where children are raised in healthy environments with respect for both self and others.

Excellent point :thumb::thumb:. You are doing fine. Yes, in order for a non-monetary world system to function, evil and greed must be got rid of; humanly, this is not possible and we need God's intervention.


As for your concept of "heaven" - I think it is in error. It sounds like supra-naturalism , that is, that "heaven" will be more or less just like this world on a "grand" scale. This is in contrast with the true nature of "heaven" which is the place of the "spirit" as opposed to "earth" which is the physical plane, the place of the "body." Thus the united concept of "heaven and earth" represents the two "planes" of existence known as spirit (heaven) and matter (earth). This encompasses the broad fundamental duality of mind/body aka spirit/matter.

Well, "Our Father who are in heaven, hallowed be their name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven". Earth is also heaven....isn't this what preterists believe? ... the present earth is "the new heaven and the new earth", which in this case, the world that we live in will eventually leads to a non-monetary utopian world. To me, spiritual world and earthly world is inter-related. Jesus came into the earthly world in His physical form and returned to the heavenly world in His spiritual form And whenever He returned to earth again, He always appeared in His physical form. Same with angels who always appeared in their physical form on earth and Jesus did said that in heaven we will be like angels in heaven. This is analogous to astronaut going into space in his spacesuit and on earth he wears his normal attire.

Matthew 22:30
At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Mark 12:25
When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Matthew19:28 Jesus said to them, 'Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

In heaven, Jesus said we will receive a hundred times more land, houses, children, wives, eternal life etc, do you know how much it is worth in earthly monetary terms?

Many Blessings.

[Didymus]

Did Jesus paid taxes? We presumed He did. Where did the money came from? If He can turned water to wine, He could turn anything to money. Obviously, in the monetary world, you will need to use money and in a non-monetary world, you don't need to use money. When on earth, we presumed Jesus need to use money but when in heaven, money is not needed.

He and His apostles could have become billionaires by raising the dead, cure the sick and drove out demons, why didn't they want to make those money? The main reason was because they believe in a non-monetary system and their goal was to enter into the kingdom of heaven. You cannot serve both God and mammon.

Many Blessings.

Yes, Jesus paid the tribute, or temple tax. You'll see this in Matthew 17.24-27.

:ranger:

[Didymus]

I agree that there will be a non-monetary society in the future, assuming we humans successfully navigate past our self-destructive tendencies caused by a lack of respect of others. Indeed, our better minds are already presenting the pattern to us in fiction. Case in point, Star Trek the Next Generation had a non-monetary society. But they had not all transcended the selfish (fleshly) mind that causes division and crime. Still, they realized that money is useless in a true meritocracy where children are raised in healthy environments with respect for both self and others.

RAM,

I must point out that Star Trek: The Next Generation did have a means of transaction. They were called "credits."

Remember "Encounter At Farpoint." When on the mall Dr. Crusher bought a bolt of material. She said, "charge it to my account on my ship (the Enterprise) when it arrives." So they had accounts. And how many times did you here a Ferengi mention "gold-pressed latnum"? Certainly they did not have maney as we know it, but they had a means of transaction, and payment.

:ranger:

[Clifford]

Greetings everyone. I started a Thread complaining about BIG OIL, but the discussion turned into a debate about Capitalism vs. Socialism (or communism). This may turn out to be a good discussion.

I've been a Conservative Republican for most of my life. For years I’ve always felt that the moral standards of most Conservative Republicans are based on a Christian standard. However true some aspects of CR’s they may be, I’d freely admit that this theory may require reconsideration. We know that most Democrats agree on issues such as abortion (or pro-choice), while CR’s tend to be more 'pro-life'. In the same way, most Democrats oppose capital punishment (death penalty), while the RC’s believe that capital punishment to be justifiable. So I find it ironic that RC’s are generally against abortion, while at the same time, are very adamant about capital punishment.

Despite the moral differences of pro-choice or pro-life, let’s discuss the real issue on hand. Between the two diplomatic sides, which is morally supportive of human rights and the benefit of life for all? Given the attitudes of the CR’s that I’ve noted this past decade, I have lean towards the Democrats. Republican’s preach about the benefits of Capitalism, and often resort to 'cliché’s' such as:

1. Patients and hard work may result in wealth
2. A good education may lead to lots of wealth
3. Lowering taxes on Corporations increases jobs
4. The individual is responsible for his/her own destiny

While all of these may be true, I would not say that most Corporations are established from 'a lot of hard work'. Take Big Oil for instance. Were any of its executives or CEO’s trained into becoming professional executives for the Oil Industry? How many of them were handed a silver spoon from a family ran business? How man of resorted to public extortion to achieve the profits they’ve accumulated over the past decade? What about other businesses such as the automotive industry? Better yet, what about the banks?

Capitalism basically believes that all men have a right to the highest degree of profit by any means possible. Here’s an example. If a person wants to cell a candy bar that only cost him 10 cents to make, for the price of $5.00 dollars, and the public is willing to pay it, then this person makes $4.90 in profit. Sound good? Let’s go even further. Let’s assume that the 10 cents is the cost of material, and the person he hired to make the candy bar cost the owner $1.00 dollar for his labor, and the person sells the candy bar for $6.00 dollars, this means that the owner profits $4.90. As you can see, the candy bar was sold weigh too high for the cost of making it, including labor. Of course people would not be willing to pay that much money for a candy bar, so the price would be reduced until there is still the possibility for profit. But then again, a candy bar is not something needed.

We’ve heard from the Republican’s that the lower class is guilty of taking on loans that they could not afford. This was nothing more than a 'spin' to place blame on the public, and not the financial institution. I hate to say this, but Michael Moore was right on the money when he confronted Shawn Hanity on this issue. The problem was not people assuming loans they could not afford; the problem was with people failing to catch the hidden agenda of the lending agency already planning to place these people in serious financial jeopardy. Some unfamiliar with a 50 page contract would not have a clue as to how many loop holes are involved in purchasing a home. One such scam was the bloated value of a house. A home ordinarily only worth $130,000.00 dollars may end up being bloated on paper, as being worth $145,000 dollars. So a Real-estate Agent will purposely bloat the value of a home in order to get the lower-income person into the home without the usual 20 percent down-payment. The next scam is on the interest rate. Most home loan victims were tricked into variable interest rate loans. At first they start off with low monthly payments. Before you know it, the interest rate goes up…and up….and up, to the point that it’s impossible to pay for. Eventually, the home ends up being foreclosed.

The FBI reported in 2008 that 80% percent of all foreclosed homes were a direct result of lending practices of the Banks. That is a lot of rip-off’s taking place! But you see, that is Capitalism. Capitalism teaches that it has the right to profit by any means necessary as long the customer is willing to pay for it. Should these people have bought a home? Well yes; a home is something we all need. And quite frankly, homes should not be so expensive; more importantly, homes should not require a 30 year mortgage. That kid of entrapment robs the economy of disposable incomes, and makes the Banks too rich. And THAT is the reason why our economy is in a recession. Too many Corporations with all the power are robbing the working class using tactics that are very difficult to deal with, yet you need a home; you need a car; you need electricity; you need food. And that’s what our society and been plagued with for decades; greedy corporations using our 'needs' to capitalize on their profits.

I believe we are seeing the end of Capitalism, and thank God for that.

Joe


I believe we are seeing the end of Capitalism, and thank God for that.

I suggest you review the history of the 20th century. It will show you the collapse and failure of Communism and the triumph of Capitalism. Capitalism as an economic system has brought more prosperity to people than any other system that has been developed. Sure it needs to be regulated to some degree as corrupt human nature will always try to take advantage and rip people off. But I submit that the Capitalist system practiced in a free society with the proper amount of oversight like in America has brought more prosperity to people and raised their standard of living to the highest degree it has been in the history of the human race.

Clifford