Author of Confusion?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Gen 11:9 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.

:dizzy:

[Rose]

1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Gen 11:9 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.

:dizzy:

It appears that there is a bit of confusion about who's the author of confusion. :p

Rose

[kathryn]

Just looked "confusion" up to see where else it was used. It appears it relates to violating or perverting the divine order of things:

ev 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.


Now, relating this (allegorically of course:p) to the mind....hmmmmm...what thinks ye?
ps...it certainly doesn't mean "perplexed"...:D

[CWH]

Just looked "confusion" up to see where else it was used. It appears it relates to violating or perverting the divine order of things:

ev 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.


Now, relating this (allegorically of course:p) to the mind....hmmmmm...what thinks ye?
ps...it certainly doesn't mean "perplexed"...:D

That's probably how HIV and AIDS came into the world in the 20th century..I believe some idiots slept with chimps, apes or monkeys! and the virus mutated to infect humans. HIV was unknown in the ancient world if not all of us would be infected by now through birth from our ancestors.

Many Blessings.

[kathryn]

That's probably how HIV and AIDS came into the world in the 20th century..I believe some idiots slept with chimps, apes or monkeys! and the virus mutated to infect humans. HIV was unknown in the ancient world if not all of us would be infected by now through birth from our ancestors.

Many Blessings.

Yes...you're probably right Cheow.
I have been thinking of this "confusion" issue all afternoon, in light of Richard's thread on tradition and Rose's thread on OT mindsets/myths. Anything that is a lie..however small, is a perversion.
If you look at this in the context of Babel, and the possibility that the ancient Hebrew alphabet could have been part of the foundation blocks of creation, we see God not just giving them all a different language, but actually perverting the divine order of it. (at least that's how I'm understanding the meaning of the word). If (and I know there's alot of "ifs" in this) this is true...it adds a whole new dimension to how they understood and wrote about their world and experience.
Do you think it was just the fact that they were united by one tongue, that enabled them to do anything they put their mind to...or was it the language they spoke as well ? It seems to indicate both.
Also interesting that the tower was on the plain of Shinar.(the teeth of the city). I've always been fascinated by the account in Zechariah, of the woman in the basket(ephah) who is referred to as "wickedness". She's lifted up off the ground, by two women with wings " like a stork" and carried, also to Shinar (Babylon), where a house was being built for it. Does anyone have any insight into this in Zechariah? This is most interesting to ponder.:pop2:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

That's probably how HIV and AIDS came into the world in the 20th century..I believe some idiots slept with chimps, apes or monkeys! and the virus mutated to infect humans. HIV was unknown in the ancient world if not all of us would be infected by now through birth from our ancestors.

Many Blessings.
Hey there Cheow,

Exactly why do you believe that? Do you have any evidence? Or did you just make it up? The scientists who study the origin of HIV do not agree with you. This article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misconceptions_about_HIV_and_AIDS#The_AIDS_epidemi c_began_when_a_human_male_had_sexual_intercourse_w ith_African_monkeys.2C_transmitting_the_virus_to_m odern_humans) says it is "extremely unlikely" that the virus was transferred from monkeys and apes through sexual intercourse. Here is the mostly likely explanation (source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_AIDS)):

Bushmeat practice as the most plausible cause

According to the 'Natural transfer' theory (also called 'Hunter Theory' or 'Bushmeat Theory'), the "simplest and most plausible explanation for the cross-species transmission"[7] of SIV or HIV (post mutation), the virus was transmitted from an ape or monkey to a human when a hunter or bushmeat vendor/handler was bitten or cut while hunting or butchering the animal. The resulting exposure to blood or other bodily fluids of the animal can result in SIV infection.[21] A recent serological survey showed that human infections by SIV are not rare in Central Africa: the percentage of people showing seroreactivity to antigens - evidence of current or past SIV infection - was 2.3% among the general population of Cameroon, 7.8% in villages where bushmeat is practiced, and 17.1% in the most exposed people of these villages.[22] How the SIV virus would have transformed into HIV after infection of the hunter or bushmeat handler from the ape/monkey is still a matter of debate, although natural selection would favor any virions capable of adjusting so that they could live, infect and reproduce in the T cells of a human host.
That makes a lot more sense to me because it is normal and common for folks to cut themselves when butchering an animal, whereas it is pretty abnormal and rare for humans to have sex with animals.

All the best.

[NumberX]

1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Gen 11:9 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.

:dizzy:

What I read here is the word God and the word Lord. I think this (also) can be explained on the level of the words used in the Text.
In Genesis 1 God (Elohim) is the name who creates, the word in 1 Cor 14:33 may be refering to Elohim.
In Genesis 2 The Lord (and) God are the names who form, that's YHVH (and) Elohim. Here the word The Lord is added, YHVH.

Elohim
Elohim is not the author of creating confusion but is associated with just, that means everything on it's right place, so there can be lived. (Y)our hands for example have not four fingers one day and five fingers on the other day and our heart does not stop beating for an hour and then starts again etc., that would be quite confusing. And on a large level it's not that there are constant floods everywhare and earthquakes etc.

The Lord
The Lord wanted to confuse the language of all the earth. So under the name Elohim He did not want it, but under the name YHVH he liked to do it. Plus, there are several words for earth. For example: A sentence applying to 'adamah' may not apply to 'eretz'. On the planet we have a elaboration of the fact that The Lord confused the language of all the 'eretz'.

The word Babel comes from the root of the word confusion, therefore Babel is translated as Confusion. There are those who bow for the king of Babel, bow for the middle-point of Confusion, but not Daniël, we can read about it in the book of Daniël. Daniël has also El in it, like Elohim, it translates as.. well, you can find it yourself, it's not confusing.

Hey, I think I see now something in the Genesis text by my own post here, that was before not clear.

[CWH]

HIV can only be transmitted through sexual contact or blood contact such as cuts, injections. Ingestion of meat infected with HIV is not the mode of transmission unless there is a cut in the digestive tract. So the mode of transmission of HIV is most likely from blood contact through cuts or bites from the infected animals. The other is most likely cause is through sex with the infected animal. SIV do not usually infect humans unless the virus mutated. You might be right that cuts through cutting of bushmeat from infected SIV primates is the main cause of HIV but sex with infected primates cannot be totally rule out. HIV seems to be a recent disease in humans and its spread became more widespread due to promiscuity and unprotected sex.

Giod confused the one single common language of Babel so that people will not be able to understand one another. Without understanding one another, there will be less team work and more misunderstanding thus jeopardise their co-operative work to achieve with pride. I believe God had the intention to scatter human throughout the earth by confusing the language so that human development will be more widespread and more diverse; each with its own different cultures and beliefs.

Genesis 11:3 They said to each other, 'Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.' They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, 'Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.'

5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The LORD said, 'If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.'


Many Blessings.

[NumberX]

Well CWH you clearly did not want to understand my post.

While your words are "God confused", "Elohim confused", the Biblical words are that the initiative lies by the word LORD to confuse, not Elohim.

[Silence]

A few years ago I read something by Arthur Custance that offered an interesting explanation for how the "babble" got started. It had to do with a group of people borrowing words that have an existing meaning and usage to describe something new that they are doing. It is common when undertaking any new endeavor, construction being one area this frequently happens in. You have to keep up with how the terms are being borrowed and used to know what is going on. In Genesis 11 they had "bricks" that were put through a hardening by fire that were "stone" to them, and "pitch" that was to them for "mortar". As they were building their city and tower, there were probably a lot of terms that got put to new uses, creating the potential for confusion through the "mixing up" of terms, mixing being the meaning of the root word for babel which is balal. It's an interesting idea that makes a lot of sense.

[Clifford]

1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Gen 11:9 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.

:dizzy:

Hey Richard,

I think when you look at those 2 passages in context you will see that they really don't counterdict each other. At the Tower of Babel God confused their language to thwart their purposes which were contrary to God's will. In Corinth confusion in the church body there would be counterproductive to the furtherance of God's will so in that context Paul tells them God is not the author of confusion in their Church body.

A another good example of God using confusion to further his purposes is in the story of Gideon. In Judges 24 God throws the Midianite army into confusion so they turn on each other and thus are defeated by Gideon.

Since Paul was well versed in the OT scriptures he would be familiar with these stories so he would not be writing something that counterdicted other scriptures.

Clifford

[Richard Amiel McGough]

1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Gen 11:9 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.

:dizzy:

Hey Richard,

I think when you look at those 2 passages in context you will see that they really don't counterdict each other. At the Tower of Babel God confused their language to thwart their purposes which were contrary to God's will. In Corinth confusion in the church body there would be counterproductive to the furtherance of God's will so in that context Paul tells them God is not the author of confusion in their Church body.

A another good example of God using confusion to further his purposes is in the story of Gideon. In Judges 24 God throws the Midianite army into confusion so they turn on each other and thus are defeated by Gideon.

Since Paul was well versed in the OT scriptures he would be familiar with these stories so he would not be writing something that counterdicted other scriptures.

Clifford
Hey there Clifford,

I agree with your comments. The contexts of Genesis 11:9 and 1 Corinthians 14:33 are entirely different. The one is an ancient myth about the origin of languages whereas the other is talking about order in the congregation of believers.

I presented that pair of verses as a delightfully ironic example of how taking verses out of context leads directly to contradictions. This demonstrates that taking things out of context leads to falsehood, since contradictory statements cannot both be true. Unfortunately, this is an extremely common error in pop Christianity, even amongst the most famous preachers and teachers. But no matter how "true" a verse sounds as a "stand alone" statement about God, it is always wrong to take it out of context and use it as if it were a "Biblical proof." For example, how many times have we heard preachers quote Jeremiah 29:11 as if it were speaking about God's intentions towards each and every believer?
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
But what's the context of that verse? To whom was God speaking? He was talking specifically to those he had sent to Babylon in exile when he destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem in 586 BC:
Jeremiah 29:10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. 11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. 12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
This is the scourge of "proof-texting" - folks take verses out of context and claim they represent a "Biblical proof" of something about God, the universe, and everything.

Great chatting!

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Well this is weird. I just noticed that the context of 1 Cor 14:33 is actually very similar to Gen 11:9 because both deal with the babble of incomprehensible languages!
1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Genesis 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
Hummmm .... :sCo_hmmthink: Now it looks like we really do have a contradiction.

[Clifford]

Hey there Clifford,

I agree with your comments. The contexts of Genesis 11:9 and 1 Corinthians 14:33 are entirely different. The one is an ancient myth about the origin of languages whereas the other is talking about order in the congregation of believers.

I presented that pair of verses as a delightfully ironic example of how taking verses out of context leads directly to contradictions. This demonstrates that taking things out of context leads to falsehood, since contradictory statements cannot both be true. Unfortunately, this is an extremely common error in pop Christianity, even amongst the most famous preachers and teachers. But no matter how "true" a verse sounds as a "stand alone" statement about God, it is always wrong to take it out of context and use it as if it were a "Biblical proof." For example, how many times have we heard preachers quote Jeremiah 29:11 as if it were speaking about God's intentions towards each and every believer?
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
But what's the context of that verse? To whom was God speaking? He was talking specifically to those he had sent to Babylon in exile when he destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem in 586 BC:
Jeremiah 29:10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. 11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. 12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
This is the scourge of "proof-texting" - folks take verses out of context and claim they represent a "Biblical proof" of something about God, the universe, and everything.

Great chatting!

Richard


For example, how many times have we heard preachers quote Jeremiah 29:11 as if it were speaking about God's intentions towards each and every believer?
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
But what's the context of that verse? To whom was God speaking? He was talking specifically to those he had sent to Babylon in exile when he destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem in 586 BC

But even though he was specifically speaking to the Jews back then it reveals something about God's nature so in that sense we can apply it to our lives today. If God's intention towards his people back then were good we can also assume it is so today, since God never changes.

Clifford

[Clifford]

Well this is weird. I just noticed that the context of 1 Cor 14:33 is actually very similar to Gen 11:9 because both deal with the babble of incomprehensible languages!
1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Genesis 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
Hummmm .... :sCo_hmmthink: Now it looks like we really do have a contradiction.

Hey Richard,

I think my reasoning in post #11 still stands.

Clifford

[Richard Amiel McGough]

But even though he was specifically speaking to the Jews back then it reveals something about God's nature so in that sense we can apply it to our lives today. If God's intention towards his people back then were good we can also assume it is so today, since God never changes.

Clifford
Maybe yes, maybe no. God destroyed "his people" when they disobeyed him! He had thousands of them murdered by the Babylonians, and ordered the rest to go into exile. Are you going to take that as revealing "God's nature" in a sense that we can apply to ourselves?

[Clifford]

Maybe yes, maybe no. God destroyed "his people" when they disobeyed him! He had thousands of them murdered by the Babylonians, and ordered the rest to go into exile. Are you going to take that as revealing "God's nature" in a sense that we can apply to ourselves?

Hey Richard,

Yes we can. It shows that after patiently warning the people for years that if they did not return to him that God would bring judgment upon them. We can apply that to our lives today. If someone persists in their rejection of God and his ways, judgment will follow sooner or later.

Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction... Gal 6:8

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Heb 10:26-27

Clifford

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Maybe yes, maybe no. God destroyed "his people" when they disobeyed him! He had thousands of them murdered by the Babylonians, and ordered the rest to go into exile. Are you going to take that as revealing "God's nature" in a sense that we can apply to ourselves?
Hey Richard,

Yes we can. It shows that after patiently warning the people for years that if they did not return to him that God would bring judgment upon them. We can apply that to our lives today. If someone persists in their rejection of God and his ways, judgment will follow sooner or later.

Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction... Gal 6:8

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Heb 10:26-27

Clifford
Hey there Clifford,

Good point. It looks like I chose a poor example. But I think my primary point is correct. There's a lot of things about "God's character" that we probably would not want to "infer" from some of the stories of the Old Testament.

All the best,

Richard