Why is there a 2,000 year gap?

[CWH]

Why is there no physical appearance of God from the 1st century to the present? Has God forsaken us? No God has not forsaken us. He left the Holy Spirit to be with us. If need to He and His angels can come down invisibly anytime to help us.

I see the 2,000 year gap as a fulfillment of God's plan as stated in many of Jesus parables about a man going on a long journey and coming back to see if His people has been patiently and faithfully waiting for His return. He expected His works and instructions to be done and will reward those who waited faithfully and has done His will and punished those who did not.

Luke 12:35-40 "Let your loins be girded and your lamps burning. Be like men watching for their lord, when he returns from the marriage feast; that, when he comes and knocks, they may immediately open to him. Blessed are those servants, whom the lord will find watching when he comes. Most assuredly I tell you, that he will dress himself, and make them recline, and will come and serve them. They will be blessed if he comes in the second or third watch, and finds them so. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what hour the thief was coming, he would have watched, and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore be ready also, for the Son of Man is coming in an hour that you don’t expect him."

The whole parable is about waiting in faith and preparing for the Lord's coming, doing God's will and getting rewarded when the Lord found them doing so when he physically returns. The Lord will be even more impressed when He finds them waiting unto their death in sincere faith for His coming. Note the timing of second or third watch, is it a clue of the supposed coming?....2,000 years or 3,000 years later? Would He reward someone who after waiting a short time and then giving up knowing the the Lord will not be coming in their lifetime or at all or will be delayed. Where is that sincere faith, love and trust that the Lord's looking for in His people? This is well represented in the next parable:

Luke 12:42-48 The Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his lord will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the right times? Blessed is that servant whom his lord will find doing so when he comes. Truly I tell you, that he will set him over all that he has. But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My lord delays his coming,’ and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken, then the lord of that servant will come in a day when he isn’t expecting him, and in an hour that he doesn’t know, and will cut him in two, and place his portion with the unfaithful.

The parable is still about waiting for the Lord's return and doing God's will when He returns unexpectedly no matter how long it takes. The parables seems to suggest that God is testing our sincere love, trust, patience, endurance and faith in waiting for His promised return and doing God's will even if 2,000 years have gone by.

This is just the first part to the answer of my thread, more to come...

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Why is there no physical appearance of God from the 1st century to the present? Has God forsaken us? No God has not forsaken us. He left the Holy Spirit to be with us. If need to He and His angels can come down invisibly anytime to help us.

I see the 2,000 year gap as a fulfillment of God's plan as stated in many of Jesus parables about a man going on a long journey and coming back to see if His people has been patiently and faithfully waiting for His return. He expected His works and instructions to be done and will reward those who waited faithfully and has done His will and punished those who did not.

Luke 12:35-40 "Let your loins be girded and your lamps burning. Be like men watching for their lord, when he returns from the marriage feast; that, when he comes and knocks, they may immediately open to him. Blessed are those servants, whom the lord will find watching when he comes. Most assuredly I tell you, that he will dress himself, and make them recline, and will come and serve them. They will be blessed if he comes in the second or third watch, and finds them so. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what hour the thief was coming, he would have watched, and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore be ready also, for the Son of Man is coming in an hour that you don’t expect him."

The whole parable is about waiting in faith and preparing for the Lord's coming, doing God's will and getting rewarded when the Lord found them doing so when he physically returns. The Lord will be even more impressed when He finds them waiting unto their death in sincere faith for His coming. Note the timing of second or third watch, is it a clue of the supposed coming?....2,000 years or 3,000 years later? Would He reward someone who after waiting a short time and then giving up knowing the the Lord will not be coming in their lifetime or at all or will be delayed. Where is that sincere faith, love and trust that the Lord's looking for in His people? This is well represented in the next parable:

Luke 12:42-48 The Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his lord will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the right times? Blessed is that servant whom his lord will find doing so when he comes. Truly I tell you, that he will set him over all that he has. But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My lord delays his coming,’ and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken, then the lord of that servant will come in a day when he isn’t expecting him, and in an hour that he doesn’t know, and will cut him in two, and place his portion with the unfaithful.

The parable is still about waiting for the Lord's return and doing God's will when He returns unexpectedly no matter how long it takes. The parables seems to suggest that God is testing our sincere love, trust, patience, endurance and faith in waiting for His promised return and doing God's will even if 2,000 years have gone by.

This is just the first part to the answer of my thread, more to come...

Many Blessings.

Hi Cheow,

Good topic! :thumb:

I agree that Jesus said he would be "gone" for a while. How long? He used a human analogy of a man on a long journey. Taken literally, this could not apply to anything more than the span of a human lifetime, so from this view Preterism would be the only possibility. But I don't think we are supposed to force Biblical analogies to be literal, so I would say that by itself, this analogy only proves a gap. It could be a 40 year gap, it could be a 2 million year gap.

But we get a much more specific estimate of the length of the gap from the host of mutually confirming Scriptures which plainly state 1) the predicted events would happen during the lifetime of the first century generation (taking "this generation" in its normal meaning), 2) the predicted events were centered on the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, which we know happened in the first century. And there are many other powerful reasons to believe that the "gap" refers to the roughly 40 years between the crucifixion and destruction of Jerusalem.

Now tell me this, are there any Scriptures, even one, that suggests a gap of approximately 2,000 years, as opposed to 200 years or 2 million years? If not, then we are pretty much done with this topic, aren't we? We have solid biblical evidence for the Preterist gap limited by a human lifetime, and absolutely none for the Futurist gap spanning thousands of years.

All the best,

Richard

[CWH]

[QUOTE=RAM;28699]Hi Cheow,

Good topic! :thumb:

I agree that Jesus said he would be "gone" for a while. How long? He used a human analogy of a man on a long journey. Taken literally, this could not apply to anything more than the span of a human lifetime, so from this view Preterism would be the only possibility. But I don't think we are supposed to force Biblical analogies to be literal, so I would say that by itself, this analogy only proves a gap. It could be a 40 year gap, it could be a 2 million year gap. Jesus don't have a human lifespan; He lives forever, certainly His journey time is h longer than a human lifespan. Even if taken literally, by returning 40 years later most of the men mentioned in His parable would have died before that. The parable is applicable today as it was 2,000 years ago as Jesus can come anytime...or are you suggesting it onlyapplies for those of His time and has no meaning for us living presently? If so, why were all His parables and words written for?


But we get a much more specific estimate of the length of the gap from the host of mutually confirming Scriptures which plainly state 1) the predicted events would happen during the lifetime of the first century generation (taking "this generation" in its normal meaning), 2) the predicted events were centered on the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, which we know happened in the first century. And there are many other powerful reasons to believe that the "gap" refers to the roughly 40 years between the crucifixion and destruction of Jerusalem.
That's your Preterist's belief; I don't buy it.


Now tell me this, are there any Scriptures, even one, that suggests a gap of approximately 2,000 years, as opposed to 200 years or 2 million years? If not, then we are pretty much done with this topic, aren't we? We have solid biblical evidence for the Preterist gap limited by a human lifetime, and absolutely none for the Futurist gap spanning thousands of years.
Same as I would ask, Is there any scripture that says that He left for a journey of only 40 years. By the time He returned in 40 years, I wonder if many of His people were still alive.... Peter, James, Matthew and most of His apostles were dead long before His supposed return in AD 70.

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Jesus don't have a human lifespan; He lives forever, certainly His journey time is h longer than a human lifespan. Even if taken literally, by returning 40 years later most of the men mentioned in His parable would have died before that. The parable is applicable today as it was 2,000 years ago as Jesus can come anytime...or are you suggesting it onlyapplies for those of His time and has no meaning for us living presently? If so, why were all His parables and words written for?

So you admit that you have no biblical basis for a 2000 year gap. It could just as easily be a 20,000 year gap. If you are correct, then the Bible gives no information on this topic.



That's your Preterist's belief; I don't buy it.

And neither have you refuted my Biblical arguments, so it looks like you are just rejecting what the Bible states because you don't like it.



Same as I would ask, Is there any scripture that says that He left for a journey of only 40 years. By the time He returned in 40 years, I wonder if many of His people were still alive.... Peter, James, Matthew and most of His apostles were dead long before His supposed return in AD 70.

Many Blessings.
Yes, there are Scriptures. I presented them and you ignored them as if they weren't even in the Bible.

[CWH]

This is the second part of the answer and more to come.....

God regard Israel as His first born Son:

Hosea 11
God’s Love for Israel
1 “When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.
2 But the more they were called,
the more they went away from me.[a]

Exodus 4: 21 The LORD said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, “Let my son go, so he may worship me.” But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.’”

As a loving God the Father, He took care of His son Israel till maturity and He would allow His son freedom to do on his own will just like a natural father. Would a natural parent still control their child so tightly after they have matured into adulthood with the right to do what the child think is right? NO. Therefore, I believe that when Israel was developing since its creation 6,000years ago as an infant, God have been taking care of him and as Israel adulthood have come in the 1st century 2,000 years ago with the arrival of Christ giving His final advice and instructions before He left Israel to decide what Israel want to do to develop. If Israel and God's people want to do their own business without God, it will be granted and will be allowed to taste the folly of their decision. And as a loving Father, He left the Holy Spirit to continue to guide Israel and all God's children as a caretaker so that His physical presence is not necessary. However, when Israel began to age into old age, or when Israel and God's people began to realize their folly without God and repent, He will be present physically again to help Israel and God's children along the way to His kingdom.

John 16:I did not tell you this from the beginning because I was with you, 5 but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

John 17:6 “I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by[c] that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. 13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.


Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

This is the second part of the answer and more to come.....

As a loving God the Father, He took care of His son Israel till maturity and He would allow His son freedom to do on his own will just like a natural father. Would a natural parent still control their child so tightly after they have matured into adulthood with the right to do what the child think is right? NO. Therefore, I believe that when Israel was developing since its creation 6,000years ago as an infant, God have been taking care of him and as Israel adulthood have come in the 1st century 2,000 years ago with the arrival of Christ giving His final advice and instructions before He left Israel to decide what Israel want to do to develop. If Israel and God's people want to do their own business without God, it will be granted and will be allowed to taste the folly of their decision. And as a loving Father, He left the Holy Spirit to continue to guide Israel and all God's children as a caretaker so that His physical presence is not necessary. However, when Israel began to age into old age, or when Israel and God's people began to realize their folly without God and repent, He will be present physically again to help Israel and God's children along the way to His kingdom.

I don't understand why you call that an "answer." You have not shown any biblical evidence for a 2000 year gap.

So are admitting that Futurism is not Biblical? Or is there a Biblical source that indicates a 2000 year gap?

All the best.

[alec cotton]

Hi Cheow,


Now tell me this, are there any Scriptures, even one, that suggests a gap of approximately 2,000 years, as opposed to 200 years or 2 million years? If not, then we are pretty much done with this topic, aren't we? We have solid biblical evidence for the Preterist gap limited by a human lifetime, and absolutely none for the Futurist gap spanning thousands of years.

All the best,

Richard

Jesus said ' When you see ( in future ) the abomination of desolation ,spoke of by Daniel the prophet' . We know from that statement that the event was future from where he stood. I think that it is generally accepted that he was referring to the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. Throughout the prophecy of Daniel , one day represented one year and that is confirmed in the 49 years of the building of the temple and from the edict of Cyrus to the anointing was also days for years . There is no reason whatsoever to suppose that the principle changed in the middle of the prediction. In Dan 8;13 . We read the question ,' how long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice and the transgression of desolation , to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot ?'. And he said unto me 'unto two thousand and three hundred days;then the sanctuary will be cleansed'That can only mean 2300 years unless you start juggling. The sanctuary obviously meant the temple and the host meant the Jewish people. Two thousand three hundred days after 70 A.D the sanctuary and the host were most certainly being trodden underfoot. The Romans were striking coins to commemorate the subjugation of the Jews. What do you imagine was indicated by, The cleansing of the sanctuary?. You know as well as I do that it was referring to the ceremony initiated in the earliest times. When the high priest went into the inner sanctum , the sanctuary had to be deserted . When he came out , the sanctuary was cleansed and the people returned. The symbolism seems quite clear to me . Jesus who is the high priest of our profession went into the holy of holies ( the bosom of the Father) and when he returns the sanctuary will be cleansed. Is any other logical interpretation possible.?.
Alec

[CWH]

Jesus said ' When you see ( in future ) the abomination of desolation ,spoke of by Daniel the prophet' . We know from that statement that the event was future from where he stood. I think that it is generally accepted that he was referring to the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. Throughout the prophecy of Daniel , one day represented one year and that is confirmed in the 49 years of the building of the temple and from the edict of Cyrus to the anointing was also days for years . There is no reason whatsoever to suppose that the principle changed in the middle of the prediction. In Dan 8;13 . We read the question ,' how long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice and the transgression of desolation , to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot ?'. And he said unto me 'unto two thousand and three hundred days;then the sanctuary will be cleansed'That can only mean 2300 years unless you start juggling. The sanctuary obviously meant the temple and the host meant the Jewish people. Two thousand three hundred days after 70 A.D the sanctuary and the host were most certainly being trodden underfoot. The Romans were striking coins to commemorate the subjugation of the Jews. What do you imagine was indicated by, The cleansing of the sanctuary?. You know as well as I do that it was referring to the ceremony initiated in the earliest times. When the high priest went into the inner sanctum , the sanctuary had to be deserted . When he came out , the sanctuary was cleansed and the people returned. The symbolism seems quite clear to me . Jesus who is the high priest of our profession went into the holy of holies ( the bosom of the Father) and when he returns the sanctuary will be cleansed. Is any other logical interpretation possible.?.
Alec

Thanks alec :thumb: That was another reason for the 2,000 year gap. By taking a day = a year interpretation, we have adding 1290 days & 1335 days as written in Daniel, we have 2625 years ago. We do know that the book of Daniel was written in about >BC 604 which was the year the Jews were exiled to Babylon. There the 1290 days represent the start at about >BC 604 and the 1335 days represent about 2,000 years later from >BC 604 which is the 21st century. It was said in Daniel that those who waited or reached till 1335 days are over will be blessed. The 1335 days represent the endtimes.


Daniel 12:1 'At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.'
5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, 'How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?'

7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, 'It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.'

8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, 'My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?'

9 He replied, 'Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

[B]11 'From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

13 'As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.'

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Thanks alec :thumb: That was another reason for the 2,000 year gap. By taking a day = a year interpretation, we have adding 1290 days & 1335 days as written in Daniel, we have 2625 years ago.

Hey Cheow,

I think you are a little confused. You found a way to invent a 2300 year gap, and you found a way to invent a 2625 year gap, but you have not been able to find anything that indicates a 2,000 year gap, which is the topic of this thread that you started. And besides that, none of the "methods" you have used to invent gaps are legitimate anyway. They are just guesswork. There is no way for anyone to actually know that the Bible teaches any of those gaps.

Now let's take a look at Alec's 2300 year gap. If he is correct, then we still have another 259 years before Israel should become a nation again since 70 AD + 2300 years = 2370 AD = 2011 AD + 259 years. So if this is correct, why are you so worked up all the time about the "end of the world." We are centuries away from the "last days" according to this 2300 year gap theory. And even longer if we use the 2625 year gap.

Now let's get serious. What are you really suggesting? That anytime we find a number of days in the Bible we can just make up whatever prediction we want? We can use "a day for a year" if that seems to fit our fancy, or "a day = 1000 years" if we like that better. It's nothing but guesswork. It makes a mockery of the Bilble because because it shows that there is no real meaning in the book at all! Folks just make up whatever they want, and when they are proven wrong for the MILLIONTH time, they just do it again! For example, Harold Camping says that the flood started in 4990 BC. Then he uses the "one day = 1000 years" idea in 2 Peter 3 and applies it to the seven day warning God gave Noah before the flood. "Therefore" we have "proof" that the world will end in 2011 because 7 days represents 7000 years and 7000 = 4990 + 2011- 1.

The wonderful thing is that Camping will be proven wrong (again) in a mere 82 days because that's when the rapture he predicted won't happen.

The ridiculous thing is that date-setters will continue making up crap forever and ever no matter how many times they are wrong.



We do know that the book of Daniel was written in about >BC 604 which was the year the Jews were exiled to Babylon. There the 1290 days represent the start at about >BC 604 and the 1335 days represent about 2,000 years later from >BC 604 which is the 21st century. It was said in Daniel that those who waited or reached till 1335 days are over will be blessed. The 1335 days represent the endtimes.

This exemplifies how you disregard the Bible when you make up stuff. The prophecy of the 2300 days began in 167 BC when Antiochus Epiphanes stopped the Temple sacrifice. It has nothing to do with when Daniel was written. Here is the basic info from Matthew Henry's Commentary written hundreds of years ago (i.e. this info is not new):
Matthew Henry Notes: Chapter: 8 The visions and prophecies of this chapter look only and entirely at the events that were then shortly to come to pass in the monarchies of Persia and Greece, and seem not to have any further reference at all. Nothing is here said of the Chaldean monarchy, for that was now just at its period; and therefore this chapter is written not in Chaldee, as the six foregoing chapters were, for the benefit of the Chaldeans, but in Hebrew, and so are the rest of the chapters to the end of the book, for the service of the Jews, that they might know what troubles were before them and what the issue of them would be, and might provide accordingly. In this chapter we have, I. The vision itself of the ram, and the he-goat, and the little horn that should fight and prevail against the people of God, for a certain limited time (v. 1-14). II. The interpretation of this vision by an angel, showing that the ram signified the Persian empire, the he-goat the Grecian, and the little horn a king of the Grecian monarchy, that should set himself against the Jews and religion, which was Antiochus Epiphanes (v. 15-27).
Now I understand you might want to say there is some sort of "double fulfillment" of this prophecy, and that's fine, you can say what you like. But such speculations will NEVER result in any genuine knowledge of anything that's going to happen in the future and so will only bring dishonor to God and the Bible if you pursue it.

All the best.

[CWH]

Hey Cheow,

I think you are a little confused. You found a way to invent a 2300 year gap, and you found a way to invent a 2625 year gap, but you have not been able to find anything that indicates a 2,000 year gap, which is the topic of this thread that you started. And besides that, none of the "methods" you have used to invent gaps are legitimate anyway. They are just guesswork. There is no way for anyone to actually know that the Bible teaches any of those gaps.

Now let's take a look at Alec's 2300 year gap. If he is correct, then we still have another 259 years before Israel should become a nation again since 70 AD + 2300 years = 2370 AD = 2011 AD + 259 years. So if this is correct, why are you so worked up all the time about the "end of the world." We are centuries away from the "last days" according to this 2300 year gap theory. And even longer if we use the 2625 year gap.

Now let's get serious. What are you really suggesting? That anytime we find a number of days in the Bible we can just make up whatever prediction we want? We can use "a day for a year" if that seems to fit our fancy, or "a day = 1000 years" if we like that better. It's nothing but guesswork. It makes a mockery of the Bilble because because it shows that there is no real meaning in the book at all! Folks just make up whatever they want, and when they are proven wrong for the MILLIONTH time, they just do it again! For example, Harold Camping says that the flood started in 4990 BC. Then he uses the "one day = 1000 years" idea in 2 Peter 3 and applies it to the seven day warning God gave Noah before the flood. "Therefore" we have "proof" that the world will end in 2011 because 7 days represents 7000 years and 7000 = 4990 + 2011- 1.

The wonderful thing is that Camping will be proven wrong (again) in a mere 82 days because that's when the rapture he predicted won't happen.

The ridiculous thing is that date-setters will continue making up crap forever and ever no matter how many times they are wrong.


This exemplifies how you disregard the Bible when you make up stuff. The prophecy of the 2300 days began in 167 BC when Antiochus Epiphanes stopped the Temple sacrifice. It has nothing to do with when Daniel was written. Here is the basic info from Matthew Henry's Commentary written hundreds of years ago (i.e. this info is not new):
Matthew Henry Notes: Chapter: 8 The visions and prophecies of this chapter look only and entirely at the events that were then shortly to come to pass in the monarchies of Persia and Greece, and seem not to have any further reference at all. Nothing is here said of the Chaldean monarchy, for that was now just at its period; and therefore this chapter is written not in Chaldee, as the six foregoing chapters were, for the benefit of the Chaldeans, but in Hebrew, and so are the rest of the chapters to the end of the book, for the service of the Jews, that they might know what troubles were before them and what the issue of them would be, and might provide accordingly. In this chapter we have, I. The vision itself of the ram, and the he-goat, and the little horn that should fight and prevail against the people of God, for a certain limited time (v. 1-14). II. The interpretation of this vision by an angel, showing that the ram signified the Persian empire, the he-goat the Grecian, and the little horn a king of the Grecian monarchy, that should set himself against the Jews and religion, which was Antiochus Epiphanes (v. 15-27).
Now I understand you might want to say there is some sort of "double fulfillment" of this prophecy, and that's fine, you can say what you like. But such speculations will NEVER result in any genuine knowledge of anything that's going to happen in the future and so will only bring dishonor to God and the Bible if you pursue it.

All the best.

FYI RAM, I have never invented or mentioned the 2300 year gap, you got it from alec. I only calculated the 2625 years by adding 1290+1335. These are significant days of which 2625 days divided by 365 days is equals to about 7 years. I wonder what the numbers 1290 and 1335 signify from the preterist's point of view?

I do not set dates as we do not know when the end will come but I believe we are due probably several decades from now. If you believe we are living in the 3rd kosmos, then we are due. Just wondering why is the Bible divided into 3 kosmos from the preterist's point of view? This was a post I have with Rose debating on the 3 kosmos, each kosmos seems to last about 2,000 years on the average:

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1446&highlight=kosmos

Thanks Rose for the excellent thread.

But I would simply put it for simplicity's sake that each Kosmos ended with each destruction.

1st Kosmos started with the creation of the earth and ended with the Great Flood (about BC 2500 or 4,500 years ago).

2nd Kosmos started with Noah after the great Flood and ended with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple (AD 70 about 2,000 years ago).

3rd Kosmos started with the end of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple ended with the destruction of earth's creation (with the earth still intact) somewhere in the future....and then a new heaven and a new earth commences.

**Note, Each Kosmos seems to come on an average of every 2,000 years:
1st Kosmos - The creation of the earth (BC 0) to the Great Flood (BC 2500) i.e. 1500 years
2nd Kosmos - Post Great Flood period (BC 2500) to the destruction of Jerusalem (AD 70) i.e 2570 years
3rd Kosmos - Post destruction od Jerusalem (AD 70) to end of creation (? say AD 2100) i.e. 2030 years. I stressed the word "say" because no one knows when the end will come except God the Father. A new earth and a new heaven commences.

Isn't this more logical and systematic?

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

FYI RAM, I have never invented or mentioned the 2300 year gap, you got it from alec. I only calculated the 2625 years by adding 1290+1335. These are significant days of which 2625 days divided by 365 days is equals to about 7 years. I wonder what the numbers 1290 and 1335 signify from the preterist's point of view?

I do not set dates as we do not know when the end will come but I believe we are due probably several decades from now. If you believe we are living in the 3rd kosmos, then we are due. Just wondering why is the Bible divided into 3 kosmos from the preterist's point of view? This was a post I have with Rose debating on the 3 kosmos, each kosmos seems to last about 2,000 years on the average:

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1446&highlight=kosmos

Thanks Rose for the excellent thread.

But I would simply put it for simplicity's sake that each Kosmos ended with each destruction.

1st Kosmos started with the creation of the earth and ended with the Great Flood (about BC 2500 or 4,500 years ago).

2nd Kosmos started with Noah after the great Flood and ended with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple (AD 70 about 2,000 years ago).

3rd Kosmos started with the end of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple ended with the destruction of earth's creation (with the earth still intact) somewhere in the future....and then a new heaven and a new earth commences.

**Note, Each Kosmos seems to come on an average of every 2,000 years:
1st Kosmos - The creation of the earth (BC 0) to the Great Flood (BC 2500) i.e. 1500 years
2nd Kosmos - Post Great Flood period (BC 2500) to the destruction of Jerusalem (AD 70) i.e 2570 years
3rd Kosmos - Post destruction od Jerusalem (AD 70) to end of creation (? say AD 2100) i.e. 2030 years. I stressed the word "say" because no one knows when the end will come except God the Father. A new earth and a new heaven commences.

Isn't this more logical and systematic?

Many Blessings.
Hey there Cheow,

When I said "you found a way to invent a 2300 year gap" I didn't mean that the method you found was new or unique to you. It was just "a way to invent a 2300 year gap." I emphasized this because the name of this thread that you started involves a 2,000 year gap, and that's the gap you have not found in Scripture.

I know you do not set dates "precisely" but you do set the date as sometime in the next "several decades." This is the standard Futurist position. Futurists always think the end is within their own lifetimes. Futurists in the 1970s were sure that the end would happen within ten years or so. And that's the same thing folks in 1990s thought. And it's the same thing folks think right now. "The End" is always just around the corner. And they try to prove their theories from the Bible. And that's the problem. In order to invent their "end of the world" story, they need to reject the true meaning of the Bible and replace it with a patchwork of guesses and speculation and fantasy.

This is the fundamental problem with Futurism. Folks always think they are living in the "end times." They've been wrong about this for 2000 years. The fact that the same error persists for thousands of years indicates it is a mental problem common to us humans. And now that we have it diagnosed, we should work to help free people from their illness. We should not promote the illness!

All the best.

[CWH]

Hey there Cheow,

When I said "you found a way to invent a 2300 year gap" I didn't mean that the method you found was new or unique to you. It was just "a way to invent a 2300 year gap." I emphasized this because the name of this thread that you started involves a 2,000 year gap, and that's the gap you have not found in Scripture.

I know you do not set dates "precisely" but you do set the date as sometime in the next "several decades." This is the standard Futurist position. Futurists always think the end is within their own lifetimes. Futurists in the 1970s were sure that the end would happen within ten years or so. And that's the same thing folks in 1990s thought. And it's the same thing folks think right now. "The End" is always just around the corner. And they try to prove their theories from the Bible. And that's the problem. In order to invent their "end of the world" story, they need to reject the true meaning of the Bible and replace it with a patchwork of guesses and speculation and fantasy.

This is the fundamental problem with Futurism. Folks always think they are living in the "end times." They've been wrong about this for 2000 years. The fact that the same error persists for thousands of years indicates it is a mental problem common to us humans. And now that we have it diagnosed, we should work to help free people from their illness. We should not promote the illness!

All the best.

I understand what you are saying. But can we be very sure that Jesus will never come back again physically? Can we be very sure that WW3 will never occur?....what if they will? Jesus have been saying watch i.e. watch for the signs and don't got deceived and don't be caught with your pants down.

People have been mistaken for the past 2,000 years, does not mean they will be forever wrong. Situations are very different nowadays compare to the 1st century to the 19th century...nuclear weapons, tanks, fighter planes, communism, world wars and other wars, terrorists, over-populations, food crisis, financial crisis, political crisis, inflation, AIDS, SARS, Obesity, global warming, Internet scams, immorality, increased ferocity of natural disasters etc.

The fundamental problems with preterist are their delusion of AD 70 and their "care-free" attitude of "relax, be complacent, all prophesies were fulfilled, nothing to look forward to, Jesus will never come back again, the world and sin will last forever, all will eventually be saved. This is contrary to Jesus instruction to watch, watch, watch which He said at least 7 times in Matthew 24. And almost every of His parable and the 7 letters to the 7 churches come with "he who have ears, hear" meaning meditate on the deeper meanings of what He was trying to tell us.

On one hand we must not fall to people who try to deceive us with false endtime dates and false christs and false prophesies, on the other hand, we must be on guard as Jesus said that He will come anytime like a thief and watch for the signs and do not be deceive by the evil one.

Many Blessings.

[kathryn]

Richard: Are there any scriptures, even one, that suggests a gap of 2000 years....?

I believe there are Richard, but we're entering the realm of types and shadows which I know give you the willies.:D Nevertheless...I do think they fit quite nicely with the concept that the Pentecostal age...or refining of the Body/Church/Bride...the Living work of Christ as portrayed by the second goat and the second dove in the Levitical sacrifices....is a 2000 year period. The Holy Place in the Tabernacle of Moses (a type and shadow of the heavenly pattern and representing the Pentecostal age(in my opinion) was 20 x 10 x 10 which is 2000 cubic cubits.
The same is pictured in the crossing of the Israelites over the Jordan River 2000 cubits behind the priest carrying the Ark of the Covenant (Joshua 3:4). The Ark is represented by Jesus Christ, our High Priest. He had to go first into the Jordan River(death and resurrection).
The Holy of Holies...10 x 10 x 10 cubits calculates to 1000 cubic cubit, and I believe prophesies of the thousand year period of the Tabernacle Age of which we are transitioning into now.(in my opinion :p)
What is your understanding of the meaning of the measurements of the Holy Place as a type of the pattern of the Heavenly? And the 2000 cubits the Israelites were to remain behind the Ark? Or do you consider them part of the fictional , mythical aspects of scripture?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard: Are there any scriptures, even one, that suggests a gap of 2000 years....?

I believe there are Richard, but we're entering the realm of types and shadows which I know give you the willies.:D Nevertheless...I do think they fit quite nicely with the concept that the Pentecostal age...or refining of the Body/Church/Bride...the Living work of Christ as portrayed by the second goat and the second dove in the Levitical sacrifices....is a 2000 year period. The Holy Place in the Tabernacle of Moses (a type and shadow of the heavenly pattern and representing the Pentecostal age(in my opinion) was 20 x 10 x 10 which is 2000 cubic cubits.
The same is pictured in the crossing of the Israelites over the Jordan River 2000 cubits behind the priest carrying the Ark of the Covenant (Joshua 3:4). The Ark is represented by Jesus Christ, our High Priest. He had to go first into the Jordan River(death and resurrection).
The Holy of Holies...10 x 10 x 10 cubits calculates to 1000 cubic cubit, and I believe prophesies of the thousand year period of the Tabernacle Age of which we are transitioning into now.(in my opinion :p)
What is your understanding of the meaning of the measurements of the Holy Place as a type of the pattern of the Heavenly? And the 2000 cubits the Israelites were to remain behind the Ark? Or do you consider them part of the fictional , mythical aspects of scripture?
Hey there Kathryn,

Actually, I totally LOVE Biblical types and shadows! They do not give me the "willies" in any way at all ... except when they are abused in a misguided attempt to predict the future! :winking0071:

The Biblical types and shadows were all types and shadows of Christ. They are fulfilled in Christ. The attempt to use them to predict the future like some palm reader or astrologer is just plain wrong. And it always leads to false predictions! Every time! 100% error!

The problem is very simple to see. Folks begin with an idea like "The end times are happening now!" and then look into the Bible to justify their preconceived belief by looking for "types and shadows."

My understanding of the measurements is that the numbers are symbolic of ideas, not dates of events yet to be fulfilled. For example, the 12 x 12 which figures in the list of the sealed in Revelation and the dimensions of the New Jerusalem are symbolic of the idea of the People of God, originally represented by the 12 Tribes of Israel. Note also that the New Jerusalem is cubic just like the Holy of holies, which probably represents something like the perfection of God and His People in union with Him. But if we think that the 10 x 10 x 10 of the Holy of Holies represents the Millennium, are we supposed to derive a span of time from the 12,000 x 12,000 x 12,000 dimensions of the New Jerusalem?

All the best.

[kathryn]

Fair enough Richard. Do you have any thoughts on what ideas the two examples of the 2000 I gave, could portray?

[kathryn]

Just another quick thought...the 2000 cubic gap between the Ark and those following, does suggest distance and time does it not? I do see your point with the New Jerusalem, but there are other aspects to the tabernacle. with the outer court, Holy Place and Holy of Holies that relate to many other types and shadows (justification, sanctification, purification....passover, pentecost, tabernacles, flesh, soul, spirit...etc.) where the concept of the progression of time can be applied. It's a vast subject that can't be dismissed too readily, me thinks.

[kathryn]

And nowhere, have I ever said that I believe the "end of times is happening now". Far from it. My understanding is all about restoration and renewal...not destruction, doom and gloom.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Just another quick thought...the 2000 cubic gap between the Ark and those following, does suggest distance and time does it not? I do see your point with the New Jerusalem, but there are other aspects to the tabernacle. with the outer court, Holy Place and Holy of Holies that relate to many other types and shadows (justification, sanctification, purification....passover, pentecost, tabernacles, flesh, soul, spirit...etc.) where the concept of the progression of time can be applied. It's a vast subject that can't be dismissed too readily, me thinks.
OK - let's say that the 2000 cubits represents 2000 years. What is it predicting will happen 2000 years later? You say the ark passing through the Jordon represents Christ's death and resurrection. OK .. so 2000 years later all the people following Christ will experience a similar death and resurrection? It's really not that clear at all.

Now as for the list of "types and shadows (justification, sanctification, purification....passover, pentecost, tabernacles, flesh, soul, spirit...etc.)" that all makes good sense for the most part. Indeed, the Bible itself lays it out for us in many cases, such as Christ the Passover lamb. But you lose me when you claim that "the concept of the progression of time can be applied." Sure, it works for the things that already happened, such as the "sign of Jonah" (three days and three nights) connected with Christ's death and resurrection. But how could you possible justify that as a method to make predictions? Remember, the famous quote, "It's hard to make predictions, especially about the future."

Here's the problem. The typology as relates to Christ (Lamb, Temple, etc.) is totally Biblical and confirmed and never changes. This is the exact opposite of how typology is used to predict the future. It is unbiblical, and it always changes because it is always wrong! Think about it. Devout Christians have been using typology to prove that the "end times" were happening in their own lifetime for thousands of years! They've done it over and over and over again. There is no human activity with a more perfect record of failure!

[Richard Amiel McGough]

And nowhere, have I ever said that I believe the "end of times is happening now". Far from it. My understanding is all about restoration and renewal...not destruction, doom and gloom.
Ah .. that's good to know. But please understand that I didn't mean "you" per se when I was talking about folks who have been predicting doom for 2000 years.

[kathryn]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathyrn

Just another quick thought...the 2000 cubic gap between the Ark and those following, does suggest distance and time does it not? I do see your point with the New Jerusalem, but there are other aspects to the tabernacle. with the outer court, Holy Place and Holy of Holies that relate to many other types and shadows (justification, sanctification, purification....passover, pentecost, tabernacles, flesh, soul, spirit...etc.) where the concept of the progression of time can be applied. It's a vast subject that can't be dismissed too readily, me thinks.

Richard said;

OK - let's say that the 2000 cubits represents 2000 years. What is it predicting will happen 2000 years later? You say the ark passing through the Jordon represents Christ's death and resurrection. OK .. so 2000 years later all the people following Christ will experience a similar death and resurrection? It's really not that clear at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------Hi Richard...sorry. I didnt realize you had replied in more depth to this. The threads can jump around so quickly at times and get lost in the shuffle.
I wasn't talking about predicting anything. I was noting it could possibly mean the progression of a type, into a new phase

Richard says:
Now as for the list of "types and shadows (justification, sanctification, purification....passover, pentecost, tabernacles, flesh, soul, spirit...etc.)" that all makes good sense for the most part. Indeed, the Bible itself lays it out for us in many cases, such as Christ the Passover lamb. But you lose me when you claim that "the concept of the progression of time can be applied." Sure, it works for the things that already happened, such as the "sign of Jonah" (three days and three nights) connected with Christ's death and resurrection. But how could you possible justify that as a method to make predictions? Remember, the famous quote, "It's hard to make predictions, especially about the future."

Kathryn:

Again. I'm not speaking of predictions. The concept of ripening is all through scripture and goes deeply into the study of typology/symbolism. Certainly it applies to what has already happened, but you could also say that Christ was the "seed that fell into the ground" and therefore...can we see a further progression of the ripening process in His people..or Christ in its plural sense (His seed)?

The first , second and third day theme is also much broader than just the sign of Jonah.

Richard says:

Here's the problem. The typology as relates to Christ (Lamb, Temple, etc.) is totally Biblical and confirmed and never changes. This is the exact opposite of how typology is used to predict the future. It is unbiblical, and it always changes because it is always wrong! Think about it. Devout Christians have been using typology to prove that the "end times" were happening in their own lifetime for thousands of years! They've done it over and over and over again. There is no human activity with a more perfect record of failure!


Kathryn
I agree about all the "end times" business. Couldn't agree more. And my primary focus has always been the revelation of Jesus Christ in the typology of of the temple, tabernacle, Law of Moses, etc.
________________

[Bob May]

Richard: Are there any scriptures, even one, that suggests a gap of 2000 years....?

I believe there are Richard, but we're entering the realm of types and shadows which I know give you the willies.:D Nevertheless...I do think they fit quite nicely with the concept that the Pentecostal age...or refining of the Body/Church/Bride...the Living work of Christ as portrayed by the second goat and the second dove in the Levitical sacrifices....is a 2000 year period. The Holy Place in the Tabernacle of Moses (a type and shadow of the heavenly pattern and representing the Pentecostal age(in my opinion) was 20 x 10 x 10 which is 2000 cubic cubits.
The same is pictured in the crossing of the Israelites over the Jordan River 2000 cubits behind the priest carrying the Ark of the Covenant (Joshua 3:4). The Ark is represented by Jesus Christ, our High Priest. He had to go first into the Jordan River(death and resurrection).
The Holy of Holies...10 x 10 x 10 cubits calculates to 1000 cubic cubit, and I believe prophesies of the thousand year period of the Tabernacle Age of which we are transitioning into now.(in my opinion :p)
What is your understanding of the meaning of the measurements of the Holy Place as a type of the pattern of the Heavenly? And the 2000 cubits the Israelites were to remain behind the Ark? Or do you consider them part of the fictional , mythical aspects of scripture?

I don't think there is any gap.
The 70th week of Daniel was "put off' because they didn't recognise that the week of crucifixion was that week.
The second coming is spiritual and has been happening for the last 2000 years.

The cherubim wings streched end to end tips touching reach 20 cubits. between where the tips touch there is the presence of God or the Shekinah Holy Spirit. That is illustrated in the Holy of Holies, the Ark and in us.

Israel is the name The angel of God gives to Jacob each time he becomes aware of the presence of God.
Because of the Cross and Resurrection and Pentecost we also become aware of the presence of God. Because we are the true Children (inheritors) of Israel (Favor with God)

It is interesting that Chow began this discussion with;

Ex 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Ex 4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

We are all Christians here but each have a slightly or not so slight view of things. I believe that the entire OT is our growing in awareness of that first revelation that Jacob had. "Surely God is in this place and I knew it not." We have all had that thought but we are supposes to be nurturing that seed and watching it grow. We can see this growth through the revelations of the patriarchs (shadows of our own spiritual journey.)

Anything that stands in the way of that one thought growing and taking over all of our thoughts, is to be destroyed.
The ultimate growth of that thought is "I and the Father are one." And we are "fellow heirs of the one who said that.
We are given the same treasures layed up in heaven.
The testator has passed on and we are supposed to be claiming that inheritance.

It gives a lot of people the "willies" when I speak like this. When this happens I usually move on.
The silence can be deafening.

[kathryn]

I don't think there is any gap.
The 70th week of Daniel was "put off' because they didn't recognise that the week of crucifixion was that week.
The second coming is spiritual and has been happening for the last 2000 years.

The cherubim wings streched end to end tips touching reach 20 cubits. between where the tips touch there is the presence of God or the Shekinah Holy Spirit. That is illustrated in the Holy of Holies, the Ark and in us.

Israel is the name The angel of God gives to Jacob each time he becomes aware of the presence of God.
Because of the Cross and Resurrection and Pentecost we also become aware of the presence of God. Because we are the true Children (inheritors) of Israel (Favor with God)

It is interesting that Chow began this discussion with;

Ex 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Ex 4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

We are all Christians here but each have a slightly or not so slight view of things. I believe that the entire OT is our growing in awareness of that first revelation that Jacob had. "Surely God is in this place and I knew it not." We have all had that thought but we are supposes to be nurturing that seed and watching it grow. We can see this growth through the revelations of the patriarchs (shadows of our own spiritual journey.)

Anything that stands in the way of that one thought growing and taking over all of our thoughts, is to be destroyed.
The ultimate growth of that thought is "I and the Father are one." And we are "fellow heirs of the one who said that.
We are given the same treasures layed up in heaven.
The testator has passed on and we are supposed to be claiming that inheritance.

It gives a lot of people the "willies" when I speak like this. When this happens I usually move on.
The silence can be deafening.

Hi Bob...I didnt say there was any gap in the 70th week of Daniel. Jesus was "cut off" in the midst of the week at His Baptism into death on the day of Atonement...(not for Himself but for His Body) and crucified at the end of it. He was fulfilling the legal requirment as the FIRST goat, in the levitical laws of Atonment.

Christ in His living work..His Body, is portrayed in the second goat who is smeared in the blood of the first one, has the sins of the people(including the High Priest who is a picture of our carnal man. Remember..the High Priest was making atonement for himself as well), and has the sins of the people placed upon it, and led LIVING into the wilderness by the hand of a fit man (Holy Spirit). By the same token, we had Adam's sin placed upon or imputed on us. The original High Priest of the earth, was Adam. This High Priest became corrupted and defiles the "temple". It's now time for him to be "judged" (discerned)

WE or rather the Carnal man or OLD man within us, that Jesus took to the cross is the Abomination of Desolation. Jesus suffered the FULL wrath of God at the end of the week.

Think of it...what happens to your Old Man...the carnal mind...when the LIGHT of revelation hits it? Whenever Light enters the picture...everything NOT of life, is made desolate...or taken into the wilderness, never to be "seen" again.
Please see my latest post on the "Biblical Proof" thread. It explains it in more detail.an

[kathryn]

Just wanted to note that if you're writing a post while someone is editing their reply...you can miss alot of good points in the shuffle. I realized this morning, as some of this was opening up to me in understanding as I wrote, that whoever was reading the initial post, would have missed alot. (I hope this doesnt sound arrogant) Important therefore, to check to see when it was last edited. :thumb:

[kathryn]

Adam, the first High Priest who sins, is replaced by Jesus our High Priest (without sin). Adam was also "King", in that he was given dominion over the Kingdom of Earth.
Satan is called the Prince of Darkness.
Jesus the Prince of Peace.

Satan is the Prince of the power of the air.
Adam was given dominion over the "fouls" of the air. (mindsets)

The Prince of the power of the air can only hide behind a lie..or fig leaf. (covering for our nakedness or sin)

CAN YOU SEE NOW THAT SATAN IS NOTHING MORE OR LESS, THAn THE SPIRIT(OR THOUGHT..ALL THOUGHTS ARE SPIRIT)OF THE OLD MAN OR CARNAL MAN IN US, THAT ADAM ORIGINALLY TOOK INTO HIS MIND AND THEN CONSUMED THE FRUIT OF.. WHICH CORRUPTS THE HIGH PRIEST(ADAM). THIS SPIRIT/THOUGHT, HAS BEEN LODGED IN OUR SUBCONSCIOUS (WOMB OF THE MIND) SINCE ADAM'S SIN WAS PLACED OR IMPUTED ON US.


Adam was Lucifer...the son of Light who fell from Heaven. (The garden is where Heaven meets earth in the chambers of the heart/mind/spirit). Read the account of Lucifer again. It's obvious when you read it with all of this in mind.

As we "CAST DOWN" the vain imaginations and we RE-NEW our mind or open the gates of Eden/garden....we CAST DOWN(and OUT of the garden of the mind/heart) the "High Priest". He no longer has anything to hide behind. He has no atonement or "covering" left .

The 2nd Adam, Jesus Christ our High Priest, IN and THROUGH us, reclaims the dominion Adam was given (the sceptre) back...or retakes the "power of the air" which is portrayed as the SECOND heaven,in which the SECOND work of Christ (in the SECOND goat) in His BODY, reclaims the dominion back of the "fowls" of the air.

This should give some added understanding to "meeting Him in the air". When you think of it...your head is in the air...while your feet are firmly planted on the earth.

Jesus restored the sceptre or dominion of Adam, in His death as the King of the Jews. ( the "Jew"is a type of the circumcized heart/renewed mind).

The OLD Jew..must move from circumcision of flesh..to the TRUE Jew....one who is circumcized in the heart). Christ in His Body, now COMES as Shiloh...or the Prince of Peace. ("The sceptre remains in Judah, UNTIL Shiloh comes.) I'm afraid "satan" has grossly perverted the type of our physical body...and particularily the word COME

This is going to be grossly offensive to those with no spiritual understanding, but has nothing to do with race or culture.
The OLD JEW in us , is the "prick"..who has been raping the soul for centuries.

The TRUE Jew, is the King of Jews, our Bridegroom, who consumates us (or consumes us) with HIS heart.
And here we see the full meaning of the Cross, and the defeat of satan...and all the principalities and powers and DOMINION that was arrayed against us, that was so passionately and painfully won for us on Golgotha...the PLACE OF THE SKULL.

The skull is the bowl of wrath before it becomes the Holy Grail. It is the bowl atop the candlesticks that holds the precious oil which is set a fire to become the Light of the World.

[kathryn]

Richard..you are going to have to rate some posts as R, me thinks, for those uncomfortable with body parts.

I just realized the full meaning of those UNcomely parts of the Body of Christ.

The donkey or ASS is a type of the pentecostal believer in the process of sanctification..a mixture (and usually sterile). Not bad, just unclean. The ass had to be redeemed by a lamb or suffer a broken neck. (severance from the brain stem which directs the descending and ascending messages (angels..messengers) down the spinal cord which is protected by Jacob's ladder..the 33 vertebrae)

In other words...until the Feast of Pentecost has been completed and utterly fulfilled. (the refining process of the Body)...we are the ASS before we are redeemed by the Lamb (Jesus Christ) as the Bride.

Satan's curse was that he would crawl on his belly(succumb to his fleshly appetites) and eat the dust from which Adam was made.

In other words, he resides in the midst of the digestive tract of the Body of Christ as a toxin...until we cast him down or eliminate him...or poop him out. He really is a Shit.:pray:

He exits out the Dung Gate...of the Old Mother...typified in the OLD Jeruslaem . Those UNCOMELY parts are given the most honor, because they have humbled themselves in the revelation, that they are the ASS h-le before they become the Bride or the NEW Jerusalem. They are the "doorkeepers" or watchers on the wall (this is queasy stuff for those with low self esteeem, I know.

When you think of it, it may be even more vomit inducing for those laboring under the opposite condition of pride, or those believing that ANY Glory is going to fall on a piece of realestate in the middle east. The original land inheritance or the REAL ESTATE is the GLORIFIED phyisical Body given to Adam when He was formed from the glorified dust of the earth, which God had pronounced GOOD ) Christ (plural) BOTH Head and Body, cannot completely fulfill the Law of First Fruits, UNTIL His BODY has been purified.(this is the first resurrection) It was the purpose of the first fruits, to SANCTIFY the REST of the Harvest. Jesus was called the FIRST OF THE FIRST FRUITS...OR THE ONE TO RIPEN FIRST. Again, there 3 harvests...Barley, Wheat and Grapes. The "manifestation of the Sons of God" which all of creation groans for, occurs in 3 squadrons.

[Bob May]

Hi Kathryn,

""Hi Bob...I didnt say there was any gap in the 70th week of Daniel.""

No, I didn't say you did and in fact I saw that you said you did not.

I read somewhere years ago that someone figured the sixty nine weeks to the day that Jesus came into Jerusalem riding an ass. What the Catholics call Palm Sunday.
69x7=483
So there is one week needed to make 490.
That week is a week of days.

Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The seal of vision and prophecy are the Cross. The ancient Tav was shaped like a cross. It is a seal and signature, like the signing of a document or covenant.
The anointing of the most Holy (Jesus) was done by Mary at Lazarus' home a week before the crucifixion. Maybe six days before.
In the midst of the week (if memory serves me correctly it is the day the lamb for Passover is chosen) Jesus was rejected when the people cried Crucify him.

My point is not so much the whole atonement theme but the whole idea of looking at the outer world for the answers to the end time question.
Too much in Matthew 24 suggests that it is an inward spiritual experience.

Mt 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

This sounds like a spiritual experience to me and I have experienced something very much like this in meditation.

Mt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

This would apply in every generation since then also, if you take Jesus' words as applying to every believer. Whatever generation you belong to,.. if Jesus comes to you that generation would not pass until it happened.

Mt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

That would be because there is no specific time because it happens to everyone it happens to when they are deemed by God ready to recieve it and in their own lifetime.

Mt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mt 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Again, this very much sounds like a spiritual experience. Paul was taken up to the third heaven. He did not dissapear forever. He didn't even know whether he was in the body or the spirit. He was back to write about it. I was taken up. To where I cannot tell but I could describe it, and it sounds like verse 27. I was taken up to an ocean of blue-white liquid lightning and was one with it spread out East, West, up, down, North, and South. But I was also sitting in the same chair after the meditation was over. My body did not go anywhere.

Mt 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

This sounds like meditation. "When you think not." Or possibly upon waking in the morning. Or another possibility is that it just means when you least expect it, which is the way that most people read it.

Mt 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mt 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Meat in due season sounds like Paul's statement that, "I give you milk, you can't accept the meat. Milk being for young believers who would not be able to digest the deeper things of the Spirit.

Jesus Disciples asked two questions. When shall these things be (ie., the temple being torn down.) and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
We tend to take that as both will be happening at the same time. But he does not say that at all.

I just commented on the second question. The signs of thy coming and the end of the World. (or Age.)

When he comes in whatever form, it is the end of the world as you knew it and the end of the age of the law because you have had an experience of Grace or Favor.

"Surely God is in this place and I knew it not."

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Jesus promised Nathaniel when they first met that he would have the same vision/ spiritual experience that Jacob had.
Later, he promised James and John, the Son's of Thunder that they would experience the baptism of fire.

These things are also available to all believers.

[kathryn]

Hi Paul....You've brought up some interesting points. Just have a moment so just wanted to quickly comment on one:

Mt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Paul:
This would apply in every generation since then also, if you take Jesus' words as applying to every believer. Whatever generation you belong to,.. if Jesus comes to you that generation would not pass until it happened.

In this verse, my understanding is that it is used more in the sense of what it Ithe cross) would actually generate, not man's life span. (just as Jesus said it wasn't about physical genealogies,(the flesh).

[Bob May]

Hi Paul....You've brought up some interesting points. Just have a moment so just wanted to quickly comment on one:

Mt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Paul:
This would apply in every generation since then also, if you take Jesus' words as applying to every believer. Whatever generation you belong to,.. if Jesus comes to you that generation would not pass until it happened.

In this verse, my understanding is that it is used more in the sense of what it Ithe cross) would actually generate, not man's life span. (just as Jesus said it wasn't about physical genealogies,(the flesh).

That is also a way to look at the bible. There are only two generations.
Adam's and Jesus' regeneration. US.
So in that sense Adam's Generation would not pass till all be fulfulled.
It was fulfilled at the Cross.
Both can be true. There are so many ways to approach the bible and come to the Truth. We all are coming into this from different backgrounds and mental capabilities and aptitudes.
The important thing is that we do come to the truth.
I look at "This Generation" in a similar way as "This world" Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world.
(The phrase "this world" is not a good phrase at all if you look at the phrases that relate numerically.)
Neither was his Geneology/generation of "this world." They were all inspired by revelation from the Father. From Abraham to Jesus.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

That is also a way to look at the bible. There are only two generations.
Adam's and Jesus' regeneration. US.

But that's not what the word means in its context in the Bible.

If we are going to make up our own meanings for its words, why use the Bible at all?

[kathryn]

Mt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

In this verse, my understanding is that it is used more in the sense of what it Ithe cross) would actually generate, not man's life span. (just as Jesus said it wasn't about physical genealogies,(the flesh).

Hi All...I wrote this on the run this morning and wanted to add that I do believe that "generation" in this context, ALSO means generation of the 1st century whom Jesus was speaking to . In the broader sense, I believe it refers to the age or time of Pentecost which ends when the legal fulfillment of the Law of Pentecost, has been completed in His Body on earth..or the sanctification process is over and the Age of Tabernacles begins.

[Bob May]

But that's not what the word means in its context in the Bible.

If we are going to make up our own meanings for its words, why use the Bible at all?

I'm not making up a meaning at all. Just looking at two different possible meanings to the phrase. "This generation shall not pass away until..."
He could have meant either or both.

Luke is even more clear, in my opinion, that it is a spiritual coming that Jesus is speaking about.

Lu 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Lu 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
Lu 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
Lu 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

So back to Matthew. The disciples actually ask three questions, not two.

Mt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

It seems to me that most people look at Jesus' statement/answers as if the answers to all three questions will happen simultaneously. But that might not be the case. I think they are related but not necessarily that closely.

The coming of Jesus is a puzzle because he comes to Paul and blinds him. Then later he comes and teaches him. Is that the second coming? Or was it the third? Or is it a whole different thing?
I don't know.
These are serious questions but I don't know how to reconcile these comings of Jesus. Maybe we aren't supposed to.

Good talking with you.

[kathryn]

If Jesus Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, and there was a long gap before the physical manifestation of that Truth on earth , it is so unreasonable to suggest that there is a further manifestation of the revelation of this Truth, 2000 years after the fact...as His "called out ones"...His Body, grow in the knowledge of Him?

[Bob May]

If Jesus Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, and there was a long gap before the physical manifestation of that Truth on earth , it is so unreasonable to suggest that there is a further manifestation of the revelation of this Truth, 2000 years after the fact...as His "called out ones"...His Body, grow in the knowledge of Him?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here?? I'll go with that you meant "Is it so unreasonable"...

I think the growing in knowledge of him takes time.
It was about 40 years from the crucufixion to the tearing down of the Temple in Jerusalem.
So though we are told we are no longer under the law and that we are righteous and perfected etc., it does not compute all at once. The temple has to be taken down until not one stone is left upon another.
That is the entire structure, which is the building itself back in 70 AD.

But it is our thinking patterns regarding our relationship with the Father.

Our revelation has to be after the fact because we were not born unil about 2000 years after the cross. But after our realization of what the cross means to us, we still have a lot of "house cleaning" to do.
At some point the whole thing will come tumbling down.

Though those events actually happened, in the physical world they apply to us in our spirtual understanding of our new position in relationship with God.
We just keep chipping away at what hinders us and someday we will see Him face to face.

Good talking to you,
Bob

[kathryn]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here?? I'll go with that you meant "Is it so unreasonable"...

I think the growing in knowledge of him takes time.
It was about 40 years from the crucufixion to the tearing down of the Temple in Jerusalem.
So though we are told we are no longer under the law and that we are righteous and perfected etc., it does not compute all at once. The temple has to be taken down until not one stone is left upon another.
That is the entire structure, which is the building itself back in 70 AD.

But it is our thinking patterns regarding our relationship with the Father.

Our revelation has to be after the fact because we were not born unil about 2000 years after the cross. But after our realization of what the cross means to us, we still have a lot of "house cleaning" to do.
At some point the whole thing will come tumbling down.

Though those events actually happened, in the physical world they apply to us in our spirtual understanding of our new position in relationship with God.
We just keep chipping away at what hinders us and someday we will see Him face to face.

Good talking to you,
Bob

Hi Bob...I was referring to this verse, which clearly states that it was completed long before the physical event. (see Heb. 4:3 as well.)

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

But that's not what the word means in its context in the Bible.

If we are going to make up our own meanings for its words, why use the Bible at all?
I'm not making up a meaning at all. Just looking at two different possible meanings to the phrase. "This generation shall not pass away until..."
He could have meant either or both.

Luke is even more clear, in my opinion, that it is a spiritual coming that Jesus is speaking about.

Lu 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Lu 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
Lu 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
Lu 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

So back to Matthew. The disciples actually ask three questions, not two.

Mt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

It seems to me that most people look at Jesus' statement/answers as if the answers to all three questions will happen simultaneously. But that might not be the case. I think they are related but not necessarily that closely.

The coming of Jesus is a puzzle because he comes to Paul and blinds him. Then later he comes and teaches him. Is that the second coming? Or was it the third? Or is it a whole different thing?
I don't know.
These are serious questions but I don't know how to reconcile these comings of Jesus. Maybe we aren't supposed to.

Good talking with you.
Hey there Bob,

I know what you mean, but it seems like you are taking a lot of "liberties" with the text. When Christ said "this generation shall not pass" he was answering questions about "time" - about "when" certain things would happen. Specifically, he was answering this question about when the Temple would be destroyed:
Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The "three" questions are really one: Christ said the Temple would be destroyed, and the disciples asked:


When shall these things [marked by the destruction of the Temple] be?
And what shall be the sign of your coming [to rule as Messiah, as signified by the destruction of the Jewish Temple religion]?
And of the end of the [Jewish Temple] age?

There is really just one question, expanded to cover the primary events related to the end of the Jewish Temple age.

I do not see how there could be a 2000 year gap between any of those three questions. We know the answer to question concerning the Temple was "70 AD." And this coheres with Christ coming in judgment on Jerusalem. And it was the end of the Jewish age, the age of the "first covenant" that ended with the death of the Testator.

I'm not sure how the passage from Luke 17 is supposed to answer the question of "when." It seems to be talking about a different aspect of the "kingdom" concept. And its meaning is highly disputed because it has no parallel in the other Synoptics, and the meaning of "within you" could also be "amongst you" or "in your midst."

Great chatting,

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

If Jesus Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, and there was a long gap before the physical manifestation of that Truth on earth , it is so unreasonable to suggest that there is a further manifestation of the revelation of this Truth, 2000 years after the fact...as His "called out ones"...His Body, grow in the knowledge of Him?
Do you think he was "literally" slain before the foundation of the earth, or is that figurative language to indicate that his death in 30 AD was ordained from eternity?

[Bob May]

Hey there Bob,

I know what you mean, but it seems like you are taking a lot of "liberties" with the text. When Christ said "this generation shall not pass" he was answering questions about "time" - about "when" certain things would happen. Specifically, he was answering this question about when the Temple would be destroyed:
Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The "three" questions are really one: Christ said the Temple would be destroyed, and the disciples asked:


When shall these things [marked by the destruction of the Temple] be?
And what shall be the sign of your coming [to rule as Messiah, as signified by the destruction of the Jewish Temple religion]?
And of the end of the [Jewish Temple] age?

There is really just one question, expanded to cover the primary events related to the end of the Jewish Temple age.

I do not see how there could be a 2000 year gap between any of those three questions. We know the answer to question concerning the Temple was "70 AD." And this coheres with Christ coming in judgment on Jerusalem. And it was the end of the Jewish age, the age of the "first covenant" that ended with the death of the Testator.

I'm not sure how the passage from Luke 17 is supposed to answer the question of "when." It seems to be talking about a different aspect of the "kingdom" concept. And its meaning is highly disputed because it has no parallel in the other Synoptics, and the meaning of "within you" could also be "amongst you" or "in your midst."
Richard

My point about Luke 17 is that there is/are parallel verses to Matthew.
He was speaking about the same subjects. Only in Luke he points out that the coming kingdom is within us.

Mt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Lu 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Lu 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
Lu 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
Lu 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

And Luke is obviously talking about an inner experience. "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation." and "the kingdom of God is withing you."

That the Jewish temple would soon be torn down would still be a sign of his coming even though the temple was an actual physical building and his coming a "Spiritual event."
That "Spiritual event", in my opinon will come and has come individually to people many times since the end of the Jewish age of the law and the Age of Grace we are now in.

I think Paul agrees;
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

He seems to be saying here that he will not appear to everyone. Only to those that look for him. Again the idea of an individually experienced vision.

Two grinding at the , one taken the other left, etc.
He doesn't come with observation,
taken up to meet him in the air (spirit)



I do not see how there could be a 2000 year gap between any of those three questions. We know the answer to question concerning the Temple was "70 AD." And this coheres with Christ coming in judgment on Jerusalem. And it was the end of the Jewish age, the age of the "first covenant" that ended with the death of the Testator.

Richard

I don't think there is any gap. I already commented on that. I don't doubt that your research on the temple being destroyed was thorough as far as the date goes.

[kathryn]

Do you think he was "literally" slain before the foundation of the earth, or is that figurative language to indicate that his death in 30 AD was ordained from eternity?

I find it hard to grasp the concept of eternity Richard...but surely the crucifixion and the ressurrection is an eternal truth that was manifest on earth at a specific time.

Jesus said, "before Abraham , I AM".

So...I would have to say that it was both.

[kathryn]

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

I would think the word "predestined" would have been used, rather than finished?

[kathryn]

Or perhaps, "fore-ordained"? I just looked up the word "finished"...and it has the meaning of "be fulfilled", happen, come to pass, to come into existence, etc.

[kathryn]

And again, I'm not denying that He meant specifically for that time as well. Do you not feel that both are feasible, from what has been presented so far?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

My point about Luke 17 is that there is/are parallel verses to Matthew.
He was speaking about the same subjects. Only in Luke he points out that the coming kingdom is within us.

Mt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Lu 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Lu 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
Lu 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
Lu 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

And Luke is obviously talking about an inner experience. "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation." and "the kingdom of God is withing you."

That the Jewish temple would soon be torn down would still be a sign of his coming even though the temple was an actual physical building and his coming a "Spiritual event."
That "Spiritual event", in my opinon will come and has come individually to people many times since the end of the Jewish age of the law and the Age of Grace we are now in.

I think Paul agrees;
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

He seems to be saying here that he will not appear to everyone. Only to those that look for him. Again the idea of an individually experienced vision.

Two grinding at the , one taken the other left, etc.
He doesn't come with observation,
taken up to meet him in the air (spirit)


That makes sense. Especially the part about "appearing the second time" to believers, but not to everyone. This seems to be connected to John 14:

John 14:21-23 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Richard

[Bob May]

That makes sense. Especially the part about "appearing the second time" to believers, but not to everyone. This seems to be connected to John 14:

John 14:21-23 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Richard


Hi Richard,

Yes. I thought of that one too, after I had posted. I'm glad you found it yourself.
That question has always hit me as inspired.
The implications are staggering.

Good talking with you,
Bob