What Are The Signs?

[whirlwind]

What is "the sign," and what are "signs?"



Luke 21:5-7 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, He said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And they asked Him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?


What sign heralds the last day for the above event hasn't yet occurred?

Jesus answered....


21:22-24 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.



Who is the wrath upon? Upon those "with child and that give suck," meaning those that not only fall into idolatry with the fake christ but help his vile religion. To put it another way, they take the mark of the beast in their foreheads (believe his lies so they are with child) and in their hands (give suck, nurture his deception). They fall into apostasy and are captive to Satan...that is happening now for Jerusalem is being trodden by the Gentiles and by "Jerusalem" I don't refer to the tiny speck of a city in the east.

21:25-28 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.



What, or who are the signs? He tells us....


Isaiah 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.


The prophets, such as Isaiah, and some of God's children ARE the signs! They are the signs in the sun for they/we are children of the Light, we are In the Light, and the Light/Sun dwelleth In us so as He is The Light of the world, we too are the light of the world.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Matthew 5:12-14 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.



The city...Jerusalem, the hill...mount Zion. People are His signs, not places!


Matthew 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.




We are the "signs in the sun," for we dwell IN Him and He IN us....but, there are also "signs in the moon." Who are moon dwellers?

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Psalm 74:3-4 Lift up thy feet unto the perpetual desolations; even all that the enemy hath done wickedly in the sanctuary. Thine enemies roar in the midst of thy congregations; they set up their ensigns for signs.


Ensings, en-signs for signs. Ensigns can be a mark (as in the mark of Cain...which is, I believe, the first mark of the beast). Who are the enemies in the "midst of thy congregations?" Who roars as the lion, speaking words of deception "in the sanctuary?" The "ensigns," those with the mark, those false prophets, those fake "signs" are wolves in sheep's clothing. Signs IN the moon/of the night/darkness. The ensigns are those with the mark of the beast that traffic in the souls of men and where are they? In the midst of our congregations, in our sanctuaries roaring like the young lions....lies, deception delivered in so holy a manner.


11 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


The working of Satan has been going on for a long time but soon, after his "working" comes much stronger deception! Signs in the moon, signs in the stars. Satan's powerful forces masquerading as children of God...lying wonders. Know them. Mark them. Understand God has given you power over them...over the scorpions, locusts, swine, wolves in sheep's clothing, false prophets, the blind leading the blind.



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[Richard Amiel McGough]

We are the "signs in the sun," for we dwell IN Him and He IN us....but, there are also "signs in the moon." Who are moon dwellers? Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Psalm 74:3-4 Lift up thy feet unto the perpetual desolations; even all that the enemy hath done wickedly in the sanctuary. Thine enemies roar in the midst of thy congregations; they set up their ensigns for signs.
Ensings, en-signs for signs. Ensigns can be a mark (as in the mark of Cain...which is, I believe, the first mark of the beast). Who are the enemies in the "midst of thy congregations?" Who roars as the lion, speaking words of deception "in the sanctuary?" The "ensigns," those with the mark, those false prophets, those fake "signs" are wolves in sheep's clothing. Signs IN the moon/of the night/darkness. The ensigns are those with the mark of the beast that traffic in the souls of men and where are they? In the midst of our congregations, in our sanctuaries roaring like the young lions....lies, deception delivered in so holy a manner.11 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
The working of Satan has been going on for a long time but soon, after his "working" comes much stronger deception! Signs in the moon, signs in the stars. Satan's powerful forces masquerading as children of God...lying wonders. Know them. Mark them. Understand God has given you power over them...over the scorpions, locusts, swine, wolves in sheep's clothing, false prophets, the blind leading the blind.
So now you assert that there are "moon dwellers" but you dispute that God ever "dwelt" in the Temple in Jerusalem? Brilliant use of words! :clap2:

And your typology is all wrong. Christians have always understood that the Moon is a symbol of the Church which reflects the Light of the Sun/Christ. We bear faithful witness to the Light of Christ just as the Moon bears witness to the Light of the Sun during the night:
Psalm 89:35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed [the Church] shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
Furthermore, your thesis that this is all future has blinded you to the words of Christ:
Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
The death and resurrection of Christ was the only sign given to that wicked generation, which is the same generation that saw "all things fulfilled" as it is written:
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies [66 AD], then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people [first century Israel]. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. ... 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
History declares the Words of Christ fulfilled. Why would anyone want to deny the great and mighty fulfillment of his words and incontrovertible proof of Christianity that they provide? There are two possible reasons. 1) Atheists do not want to believe, so they deny God's Word. 2) Futurists want to create their own doctrines and create time-lines to predict the end of the world, and they can't do that if Christ's words are true.

[whirlwind]

So now you assert that there are "moon dwellers" but you dispute that God ever "dwelt" in the Temple in Jerusalem? Brilliant use of words! :clap2:



Indeed I do. Why do I do so? Because IT IS WRITTEN. Not all understand but still...it is written.




And your typology is all wrong. Christians have always understood that the Moon is a symbol of the Church which reflects the Light of the Sun/Christ. We bear faithful witness to the Light of Christ just as the Moon bears witness to the Light of the Sun during the night:
Psalm 89:35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed [the Church] shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.


The church is filled with His Light. The moon has no light and is only able to reflect His. In other words...the moon is symbolic of the false christ.




Furthermore, your thesis that this is all future has blinded you to the words of Christ:
Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
The death and resurrection of Christ was the only sign given to that wicked generation, which is the same generation that saw "all things fulfilled" as it is written:
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies [66 AD], then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people [first century Israel]. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. ... 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
History declares the Words of Christ fulfilled. Why would anyone want to deny the great and mighty fulfillment of his words and incontrovertible proof of Christianity that they provide? There are two possible reasons. 1) Atheists do not want to believe, so they deny God's Word. 2) Futurists want to create their own doctrines and create time-lines to predict the end of the world, and they can't do that if Christ's words are true.



History does not declare the fulfillment. Your doctrine does and your doctrine is mistaken.



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[Richard Amiel McGough]

Indeed I do. Why do I do so? Because IT IS WRITTEN. Not all understand but still...it is written.

And it is also written that "someone" dwelt in the Temple made of stone:

Matthew 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

To whom does "him that dwelleth therein" refer?



The church is filled with His Light. The moon has no light and is only able to reflect His. In other words...the moon is symbolic of the false christ.

Great! Let's try your brilliant interpretation:

Psalm 89:35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon [false christ], and as a faithful witness in heaven.
I am humbled by your awesome insight into the true meaning of Scripture.



History does not declare the fulfillment. Your doctrine does and your doctrine is mistaken.

If that were true, you'd be able to show my errors with solid biblical facts. As yet, you have not even tried. On the contrary, you have avoided answering the simplest of questions concerning the great prophecy that was fulfilled, namely,

Why did Christ predict the destruction of the Temple buildings if their destruction in 70 AD had nothing to do with his prophecy?

Still waiting for an answer! Come on Judi ... give it a shot!

[whirlwind]

And it is also written that "someone" dwelt in the Temple made of stone:

Matthew 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

To whom does "him that dwelleth therein" refer?


The question is not who is the One that dwelleth therein. We know that is Christ. It is to know what temple He dwells in for He dwells in many, me included. Did you see any mention of a "temple made of stone?" I didn't.





Great! Let's try your brilliant interpretation:

Psalm 89:35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon [false christ], and as a faithful witness in heaven.
I am humbled by your awesome insight into the true meaning of Scripture.



What insight is required...awesome or not? The throne of Christ is established forever. The moon too is established before Him, as long as He allows it.

Psalm 72:5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.


The moon has his purpose, as do the tares. Satan is His servant.

Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.






If that were true, you'd be able to show my errors with solid biblical facts. As yet, you have not even tried. On the contrary, you have avoided answering the simplest of questions concerning the great prophecy that was fulfilled, namely,

Why did Christ predict the destruction of the Temple buildings if their destruction in 70 AD had nothing to do with his prophecy?

Still waiting for an answer! Come on Judi ... give it a shot!



There is no need. You have been answered as I felt I was to answer. Now, it is up to God to open your understanding.


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[Twospirits]

Whirlwind wrote,

The question is not who is the One that dwelleth therein. We know that is Christ. It is to know what temple He dwells in for He dwells in many, me included. Did you see any mention of a "temple made of stone?" I didn't.


Here we go again!!!:pop2:

[whirlwind]

Here we go again!!!:pop2:



Sorry....I couldn't help it. Truth is truth and the temple is the temple...and the one in which He dwells is not of stone. So sayeth the Lord!

I'll add to that, I have noticed on forums that both preterist and rapturist take every topic back to their respective corners. There is so much to learn, to teach, to discuss within His Word and yet...it's all about those two false doctrines. Rapture and the end of the world in 70AD. I've posted a number of topics and they still revert to their pet (I almost wrote delusions but that's been used so much already) beliefs.


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[Twospirits]

Whirlwind wrote,

Sorry....I couldn't help it. Truth is truth and the temple is the temple...and the one in which He dwells is not of stone. So sayeth the Lord!

I'll add to that, I have noticed on forums that both preterist and rapturist take every topic back to their respective corners. There is so much to learn, to teach, to discuss within His Word and yet...it's all about those two false doctrines. Rapture and the end of the world in 70AD. I've posted a number of topics and they still revert to their pet (I almost wrote delusions but that's been used so much already) beliefs.

I understand :)

There are more than two false doctrines, but as you say the "rapture" is another that is greatly misunderstood by those who hold to a futurist position. That is a pre, mid, post trib rapture. They are all biblically wrong, but I'm not going to go into that, neither will I debate the issue.

I also do not believe that every thing was fulfilled in 70 A.D. as many on this forum know, and now you know :) Be good--

God bless---Twospirits

[Richard Amiel McGough]

And it is also written that "someone" dwelt in the Temple made of stone:

Matthew 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

To whom does "him that dwelleth therein" refer?
The question is not who is the One that dwelleth therein. We know that is Christ. It is to know what temple He dwells in for He dwells in many, me included. Did you see any mention of a "temple made of stone?" I didn't.

Right ... you did not "see" any mention of the physical Temple in Christ's discussion about the physical gifts placed upon the physical altar in the physical Temple:
Matthew 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
If Christ called them fools and blind for failing to see such plain truths, I wonder what he would say to you Judi. Your interpretation of the Bible are an abomination.




Great! Let's try your brilliant interpretation:
Psalm 89:35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon [false christ], and as a faithful witness in heaven.
I am humbled by your awesome insight into the true meaning of Scripture.
What insight is required...awesome or not? The throne of Christ is established forever. The moon too is established before Him, as long as He allows it.

So you now you insist that the moon in that passage really does apply to the anti-christ, and that he is a "faithful witness in heaven?"

Like I said, you interpretations are an abomination of both intellect and Scripture.




If that were true, you'd be able to show my errors with solid biblical facts. As yet, you have not even tried. On the contrary, you have avoided answering the simplest of questions concerning the great prophecy that was fulfilled, namely,

Why did Christ predict the destruction of the Temple buildings if their destruction in 70 AD had nothing to do with his prophecy?

Still waiting for an answer! Come on Judi ... give it a shot!
There is no need. You have been answered as I felt I was to answer. Now, it is up to God to open your understanding.

Great. It is my belief that God wants your lies to be exposed in a way that will leave no doubt for anyone who ever looks up you name on the internet. Your obstinate refusal to speak truth on this question has been thoroughly documented. There is now a permanent record on the internet that you have chosen to allow substantiated accusations of lying to stand with absolutely attempt at any refutation whatsoever.

So be it. It's your witness that is at stake. Not mine.

It looks like you are hoping to be as much a "faithful witness" as your interpretation of the moon in Psalm 89:37.

[whirlwind]

I understand :)
There are more than two false doctrines, but as you say the "rapture" is another that is greatly misunderstood by those who hold to a futurist position. That is a pre, mid, post trib rapture. They are all biblically wrong, but I'm not going to go into that, neither will I debate the issue.



Yes, there are more than two false doctrines but I see those two as the big ones. None of us have all truth no matter how much we study and love the Lord. Will anyone have the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth before this whole grand and wonderful life of man comes to a close?




I also do not believe that every thing was fulfilled in 70 A.D. as many on this forum know, and now you know :) Be good--

God bless---Twospirits



Yes, and as you know, nor do I :lol: but...many things have happened as prophesied for we near the end of this age (I know from your post that you don't agree) but I believe that is what the Scriptures tell us.

Interesting times.


God bless you too....Whirlwind



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[whirlwind]

Right ... you did not "see" any mention of the physical Temple in Christ's discussion about the physical gifts placed upon the physical altar in the physical Temple:
Matthew 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
If Christ called them fools and blind for failing to see such plain truths, I wonder what he would say to you Judi. Your interpretation of the Bible are an abomination.


So you now you insist that the moon in that passage really does apply to the anti-christ, and that he is a "faithful witness in heaven?"

Like I said, you interpretations are an abomination of both intellect and Scripture.


Great. It is my belief that God wants your lies to be exposed in a way that will leave no doubt for anyone who ever looks up you name on the internet. Your obstinate refusal to speak truth on this question has been thoroughly documented. There is now a permanent record on the internet that you have chosen to allow substantiated accusations of lying to stand with absolutely attempt at any refutation whatsoever.

So be it. It's your witness that is at stake. Not mine.

It looks like you are hoping to be as much a "faithful witness" as your interpretation of the moon in Psalm 89:37.



If you think me to be such a liar and abomination then why in the world do you continue asking me to answer your question? What is the point?



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[Richard Amiel McGough]

If you think me to be such a liar and abomination then why in the world do you continue asking me to answer your question? What is the point?

You came here and made false claims. I didn't go looking for you. You have been making similar claims all over the internet for years. As a person involved in the study of the Bible, I have a personal interest in these matters. Folks like you make a mockery of God and the Bible. You make all of us who take the Bible seriously look like fools. You are stepping on my toes. I have a vested interest in exposing delusions relating to the Bible.

And I have no reason to think you will not eventual respond to reason. I have gone to great lengths to help you see your delusions so you can be free from them. I doubt anyone has ever shown them to you as clearly as I have. So now all you need to do is respond in truth to the words I have written. You know you are hiding from the truth. That is why you will not answer my question about the destruction of the Temple buildings. And that is why you will not answer my post where I explained that you really are "interpreting" when you "only" post quotes from the Bible.

This is why this conversation seems so "nasty" and "sharp." For years you have been able to post your wild "interpretations" all over the internet but no one actually held your feet to the fire of truth. Those days are now past. You will respond in truth or you will leave of your own accord, or I will ban you when I have concluded that you have served your purpose as a terrible example of how folks abuse the Bible. This is my consistent message. I explained this to you in this post (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?p=28065#post28065) two full days ago:


So you write more crap while continuing to refuse to answer my simple and straightforward question?

You don't realize how obvious all this is. I have exposed a dozen other errors in your interpretations to which you replied with nothing but meaningless one-line denials with no supporting biblical evidence. I understand that you have been able to get away with this behavior on other forums, but this forum is different. I do not let liars go free. You will either repent and speak truth, or you will be gone from here, either by your own choice when you realize your lies have been exposed, or because I will ban you when I conclude that you are of no more use as a terrible example of how folks abuse the Bible.

I hope you see you have a choice here. It is not too late for you to begin speaking truth.

Note that I was complaining then, in direct response to your response, that you were refusing to answer my question. In another thread you LIED and said that my accusations were "unsupportable." You are now piling lies upon lies. You are looking like Watchman232 / Ben Yisrael / 144 whom you explicitly "honor" even after he was exposed as a failed date setter and chronic liar:


No, your accusations are unsupportable. Therefore they are surrounded with words such as liar, twisted, delusional, etc.


Every word I write is supportable by evidence. I am very careful about that. It is a very deep and consistent habit that I have cultivated over years. You, on the other hand, are a "loose canon" who shoots wildly inaccurate volleys in every random direction with no supporting evidence at all.

[whirlwind]

You came here and made false claims. I didn't go looking for you. You have been making similar claims all over the internet for years. As a person involved in the study of the Bible, I have a personal interest in these matters. Folks like you make a mockery of God and the Bible. You make all of us who take the Bible seriously look like fools. You are stepping on my toes. I have a vested interest in exposing delusions relating to the Bible.

And I have no reason to think you will not eventual respond to reason. I have gone to great lengths to help you see your delusions so you can be free from them. I doubt anyone has ever shown them to you as clearly as I have. So now all you need to do is respond in truth to the words I have written. You know you are hiding from the truth. That is why you will not answer my question about the destruction of the Temple buildings. And that is why you will not answer my post where I explained that you really are "interpreting" when you "only" post quotes from the Bible.

This is why this conversation seems so "nasty" and "sharp." For years you have been able to post your wild "interpretations" all over the internet but no one actually held your feet to the fire of truth. Those days are now past. You will respond in truth or you will leave of your own accord, or I will ban you when I have concluded that you have served your purpose as a terrible example of how folks abuse the Bible. This is my consistent message. I explained this to you in this post (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?p=28065#post28065) two full days ago:



Note that I was complaining then, in direct response to your response, that you were refusing to answer my question. In another thread you LIED and said that my accusations were "unsupportable." You are now piling lies upon lies. You are looking like Watchman232 / Ben Yisrael / 144 whom you explicitly "honor" even after he was exposed as a failed date setter and chronic liar:



Every word I write is supportable by evidence. I am very careful about that. It is a very deep and consistent habit that I have cultivated over years. You, on the other hand, are a "loose canon" who shoots wildly inaccurate volleys in every random direction with no supporting evidence at all.



You remind me so much of another internet poster. Same manner of speech, same ego, same persnickity mannerisms, same way of flinging around accusations. But, I know you aren't the same one....his name is Stephen, and the last I heard he was talking about the LIE of preterism all the while expounding about rapture. Go figure. Pot calling the kettle black. :lol:



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[Richard Amiel McGough]

You remind me so much of another internet poster. Same manner of speech, same ego, same persnickity mannerisms, same way of flinging around accusations. But, I know you aren't the same one....his name is Stephen, and the last I heard he was talking about the LIE of preterism all the while expounding about rapture. Go figure. Pot calling the kettle black. :lol:

More meaningless jabber.

I am not "flinging" accusations. I have a very specific accusation that is fully supported by the facts.

Empty claims a refutation make not.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

As it turns out, Judi just copied and pasted the OP from an old thread she had posted on another forum (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/what-are-the-signs/) last October. And not surprisingly, she got a very similar response as I have given here.

First, we have this response from Jake:




Luke 21:5-7 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, He said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And they asked Him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?




What sign heralds the last day for the above event hasn't yet occurred?


Evidently it has, for the Temple does not exist.

Jake


And true to form, Judi responded thusly:






Luke 21:5-7 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, He said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And they asked Him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?




What sign heralds the last day for the above event hasn't yet occurred?


Evidently it has, for the Temple does not exist.

Jake


Evidently not Jake :). Did He say the temple would not exist or...did He say, "There shall not be left one stone upon another." Are there stones, huge stones, standing "one stone upon another" today?



Then Marc chimed in with gem of subtlety:



I'm getting to the point where I don't suffer....well, board rules prohibit me from finishing that sentence.


This is my forum, and I have no rules forbidding justified descriptions of foolish posters. The complete sentence would read "I don't suffer fools lightly." Something that everybody by now should know describes me quite accurately.

So anyway, Marc then followed up with this rather obvious observation:


I didn't get past the first paragraph. I figured that such tortured logic didn't bode well.

True to form, Judi ignored the substance of his comment and presented her standard delusional assertion that she had only "quoted Scripture":




I didn't get past the first paragraph. I figured that such tortured logic didn't bode well.

You do realize that was quoted Scripture???


At which point Marc shredded her delusion into its component sub-delusions:



Your editing isn't scripture. The Holy Spirit doesn't need a little helper to take out the confusing bits, color-code scripture, and provide bullet points.

In truth, you've cobbled scripture in a way that makes it harder to understand, and then, in a reply (and note, I was replying to this post, not the op--please follow along) you said:

Evidently not Jake . Did He say the temple would not exist or...did He say, "There shall not be left one stone upon another." Are there stones, huge stones, standing "one stone upon another" today?


which is contextually nonsensical.


Thank God there are folks like Marc out there. The battle against Biblical Moronism is a thankless task.

[whirlwind]

As it turns out, Judi just copied and pasted the OP from an old thread she had posted on another forum (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/what-are-the-signs/) last October. And not surprisingly, she got a very similar response as I have given here.

Thank God there are folks like Marc out there. The battle against Biblical Moronism is a thankless task.



Why Richard, how wonderful that you feel it necessary and a good thing...to look up past posts of mine. Thank you. That means I am making some headway.

One problem is you, as well as the previous responder, fail to see the Words of the Lord and instead attribute them to Mormonism. Rather sad really but keep digging through past posts and maybe you'll see the light.

And again, thank you for taking time to bring attention to my previous work. You will notice as you troll through other sites, and I can mention them to you if necessary, that my name never changes. They should be easy to locate. Look for Whirlwind or 1Whirlwind. Happy reading......



.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Why Richard, how wonderful that you feel it necessary and a good thing...to look up past posts of mine. Thank you. That means I am making some headway.

That's odd ... you think it is a good thing that I posted those responses. Didn't your read them?

You seem to be retreating into a "bonkers bunker" - as if amplifying your delusions will somehow make them rational.

I did not feel it "necessary" - I found it useful to post Marc's comments because they were essentially identical to mine. He explained that your posts contain plenty of "interpretation" and that your assertion about the stones is "contextual nonsense."




Thank God there are folks like Marc out there. The battle against Biblical Moronism is a thankless task.
One problem is you, as well as the previous responder, fail to see the Words of the Lord and instead attribute them to Mormonism. Rather sad really but keep digging through past posts and maybe you'll see the light.

You need to reread my comment. I did not mention "Mormonism."

Why do you not see that your posts are irrational?

Why do you praise known liars?

Why do you refuse to speak truth?

Why do you claim that your date-setting time-line comes from the Bible? It is based on the Ussher's false date of 1491 BC for the Exodus! That means that your entire time-line is based on an unbiblical falsehood and you don't care.



And again, thank you for taking time to bring attention to my previous work. You will notice as you troll through other sites, and I can mention them to you if necessary, that my name never changes. They should be easy to locate. Look for Whirlwind or 1Whirlwind. Happy reading......

I think I'm done evaluating your delusions. They've gotten more attention than they deserve.

[kathryn]

Greetings All...I've been out of town since Christmas and it's taken awhile to catch up on all of the posts.
Richard, there is a question that always comes up with me, when I read these debates. How do you see the outworking of the Kingdom of God on earth? Do you personally look forward to a time when the Gospel will be preached on earth in power, with signs and wonders following?
The topic of "hope" keeps coming up, probably because it's difficult to see the complete fulfillment in the state of the earth today. Will the church rule and reign with Christ on earth? If so, when does this occur? What has been holding the outward signs of fulfillment back? The lack of faith that it has occured?
(as you probably remember, I do believe that ALL was legally fulfilled at the cross, but that there is an outworking of that fulfillment within the Body of Christ that does reach a climax . I'm not sure what that makes me:D..a puterist? har!) PS...I posted this earlier and it disappeared...so if it re-surfaces with slightly different wording, you'll know why.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Greetings All...I've been out of town since Christmas and it's taken awhile to catch up on all of the posts.
Richard, there is a question that always comes up with me, when I read these debates. How do you see the outworking of the Kingdom of God on earth? Do you personally look forward to a time when the Gospel will be preached on earth in power, with signs and wonders following?
The topic of "hope" keeps coming up, probably because it's difficult to see the complete fulfillment in the state of the earth today. Will the church rule and reign with Christ on earth? If so, when does this occur? What has been holding the outward signs of fulfillment back? The lack of faith that it has occured?
(as you probably remember, I do believe that ALL was legally fulfilled at the cross, but that there is an outworking of that fulfillment within the Body of Christ that does reach a climax . I'm not sure what that makes me:D..a puterist? har!) PS...I posted this earlier and it disappeared...so if it re-surfaces with slightly different wording, you'll know why.
Hi Kathryn,

It is good to see you. I moved your post to a new thread since it has nothing to do with the conversation in this thread. I will answer there. It is called

Questions for Richard: What's Next if All Prophecies are Fulfilled? (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2072)

All the best,

Richard

[TheForgiven]

Yes, and as you know, nor do I but...many things have happened as prophesied for we near the end of this age (I know from your post that you don't agree) but I believe that is what the Scriptures tell us.

Interesting times.

Oh yes, I would agree with you whirlwind. It is indeed "interesting times".

Your presentations are very entertaining. :pop2:

Hey Richard. I've gotta take a rest-room break. Hold my seat for me. :D I don't want to miss the best parts of this show. :D

Joe

[whirlwind]

Oh yes, I would agree with you whirlwind. It is indeed "interesting times".

Your presentations are very entertaining. :pop2:

Hey Richard. I've gotta take a rest-room break. Hold my seat for me. :D I don't want to miss the best parts of this show. :D

Joe


Hi Joe, thank you, I'm glad you find them entertaining. :lol: As you do, I thought I would add the following. It appears I've been restricted from posting new threads. But, I'll hang around for awhile...however, if you notice me no longer here...you'll know I've been banned. And that dear friend is all part of the killing of the witnesses that takes place in the end of days. It is all figurative...being slain in the street of the great city.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


But, until the testimony has been given, what do you think about......




Trees in the garden of God. What or who are they?


Mark 8:23-25 And He took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when He had spit on his eyes, and put His hands upon him, He asked him if he saw ought. And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. After that He put His hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.



We are as the blind man. Only our Savior can restore our sight...when we "look up for your redemption draweth nigh." [Luke 21:28] This speaks of the spiritually blind, which we all are until a point in our life. For me, I began to see spiritually when, just as the blind man written of above....I saw "men as trees." Before long, if we continue on to know Him, we are given discernment to truly see every man clearly! How do we continue to "know Him?"

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him, If ye continue in My word, then are ye My disciples indeed;



There is so much symbology in the Bible but the first I truly saw was...trees as men. For instance.....


Isaiah 55:12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.



Trees of the field, palm trees, fig trees, cedar trees, olive trees and....on and on. They are people, various types of people. So where it is written....
Ezekiel 31:8-9 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chestnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty. I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

Trees don't clap hands and trees don't envy. So, unless we're completely spiritually blind we now see...trees as men. Knowing that, who were the "trees in Eden?" Who was the tree the other trees envied and when did that take place?


.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Joe, thank you, I'm glad you find them entertaining. :lol: As you do, I thought I would add the following. It appears I've been restricted from posting new threads. But, I'll hang around for awhile...however, if you notice me no longer here...you'll know I've been banned. And that dear friend is all part of the killing of the witnesses that takes place in the end of days. It is all figurative...being slain in the street of the great city.

Quit pretending to be a martyr Judi.

It was your choice when you chose to twist words, refuse to answer, falsely claim you had answered, and then post a really stupid non-answer which had nothing to do with the question, and then refuse to answer again and lie about it and then falsely accuse me of accusing you without evidence. This ugly smear you have left on my forum is entirely of you own making Judi. Every bit of it.

No witness of God has ever abused the truth as you do. So quit pretending that your lies have not been exposed.

I stopped you from creating new threads because this forum is not the place for you to advertise your delusions. I would have let you continue if you would participate in serious rational discourse, but your refused. You play word games. You twist words and deny the truth. You refuse to respond to simple and honest questions.

I don't plan on banning you because I am hoping you may benefit from the highly intelligent criticism your false interpretations that you will receive from the members here. I have accepted the fact that you are fine with proclaiming yourself to be an unrepentant liar. Everyone on the forum now knows you for who you have chosen to be.



Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


But, until the testimony has been given, what do you think about......

Oh yes. Your "testimony" that May 21, 2011 will be the first day of the 150 day long tribulation? Based on the unbiblical date of "1491 BC" for the Exodus? You made it all up! The date will come and go and you will forever be marked as a failed date setter just like the people you "honor" such as the chronic liar Watchman232 / BenYisrael / 144. Birds of a feather, eh?

Though I believe you (sort of) when you say you did not get that date from Harold Camping, I find it to be the deliciously ironic that you have chosen the same date as one of the famous failed date-setter and crazed madman who, exactly like you, thinks that his twisted interpretations of the Bible are not even "interpretations" at all, but "what the Bible says."

Harold Camping says the Rapture will be on May 21, 2011 and that it will also be the beginning of 153 days of "The Day of Judgment" in which "death will be everywhere" and from which there will be no escape. He predicts that the entire universe will be annihilated on Oct 21, 2011. When asked what he will say if proven wrong, he says he cannot even entertain that question because it is equivalent to saying that you don't believe the Bible. In other words:

Harold Camping says that anyone who disagrees with his insane interpretation, his word, is actually denying God's Word and not believing the Bible.

Harold Camping claims "his word" is "God's Word."

You make the same claim. That's why it's so hilariously ironic that you have used the same date in your false prediction. And I'm glad you did. The date is very close, and so you, like Harold Camping, will be soon proven wrong.

May 21, 2011 will indeed be a Judgment Day ... for you and Harold Camping, and anyone who has believed either of you.