What the Bible is Not

[Rose]

Of all the things the Bible might be….we know one thing for sure that it is NOT, and that is an instruction book, because nobody agrees on how to interpret it...:dontknow: :dizzy: :confused2:

Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Of all the things the Bible might be….we know one thing for sure that it is NOT, and that is an instruction book, because nobody agrees on how to interpret it...:dontknow: :dizzy: :confused2:

Rose
You got that right!

Our recent discussions with Whirlwind have exemplified that the Bible can be made to say anything anyone wants it to say, and no amount of reasoning or discussion helps. Indeed, this is just the latest example of something I have experienced since I began discussing Scripture online more than ten years ago.

So what is the Bible good for? What does it do for us? It obviously cannot provide any real guidance for anyone because we have to interpret it for ourselves which means that folks will just interpret it to fit their own prejudices and predilections, like the Southerners who used it to justify slavery, and misogynists who use it subjugate women. It means whatever they want it to mean.

I would guess suppose that most Christians would think that the one great purpose of the Bible is to "preach the Gospel." How would we know about Jesus without it? That sounds great, but we quickly realize it solves nothing. Just collect together a representative sample of everyone who would agree that "the primary purpose of the Bible is to teach us the Gospel of Jesus Christ." Great! So we've got a Mormon, a Jehovah's Witness, a Roman Catholic, a Greek Orthodox, and seventeen varieties of Protestant (Calvinist Baptist, Freewill Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, ....).

Bottom Line: The Bible is useless for anything but personal devotion to whatever God one thinks it speaks of.

[NumberX]

You can ask yourself if you really need to discuss texts with 'text-discussers'.

If one sticks to gematria or the Biblewheel one is always right because of the possiblity that the other person can calculate and see it also. There are however less persons enjoying these discoveries and to talk about with.

I just leave the 'text-discussers' discussing the texts with each other.

[whirlwind]

Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of Me,) to do thy will, O God.

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of Me and of My words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when He cometh in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.



Proverbs 1:23 Turn you at My reproof: behold, I will pour out My spirit unto you, I will make known My words unto you.


Proverbs 4:5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of My mouth.


Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.



Words to consider.....:)



.

[Rose]

Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of Me,) to do thy will, O God.

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of Me and of My words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when He cometh in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.



Proverbs 1:23 Turn you at My reproof: behold, I will pour out My spirit unto you, I will make known My words unto you.


Proverbs 4:5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of My mouth.


Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.



Words to consider.....:)



.
Hi Whirlwind,

Those are indeed very good words to consider...:pop2:
Now, we must stop for a moment and think about what those verses mean to us and others...:sCo_hmmthink: I think we will probably get as many different interpretations as there are people...:lol:

So, for now the best answer to "what is the Bible good for?" may be what Richard alluded to in his post....A personal devotion book.

Blessings,
Rose

[whirlwind]

Hi Whirlwind,

Those are indeed very good words to consider...:pop2:
Now, we must stop for a moment and think about what those verses mean to us and others...:sCo_hmmthink: I think we will probably get as many different interpretations as there are people...:lol:

So, for now the best answer to "what is the Bible good for?" may be what Richard alluded to in his post....A personal devotion book.

Blessings,
Rose




Our agreement with others isn't the answer. Our agreement with Him is.


.

[Rose]

Our agreement with others isn't the answer. Our agreement with Him is.


.

So, are we agreeing with Him, or are we agreeing with what we interpret Him to be saying through our own human understanding, like everyone else is doing.

Gets kinda loopy huh...:p

Blessings,
Rose

[NumberX]

We can make connections from the Bible to the physical world like I did in the science part of the forum. Like we all walk around in a 1:4 ratio. So it's not only a Personal Devotion Book when we understand the science part of the forum..

It's a... Public Discovery Channel :)

So it's not a PDB but a PDC

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of Me,) to do thy will, O God.

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of Me and of My words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when He cometh in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.

Proverbs 1:23 Turn you at My reproof: behold, I will pour out My spirit unto you, I will make known My words unto you.

Proverbs 4:5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of My mouth.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Words to consider.....:)

.
Hey there Whirlwind,

Those are powerful verses. They have a strong impact on the mind. They immediately cause :eek: >>>fear<<< :eek: that the mere act of questioning the Bible and thinking for myself indicates a lack of faith and could be a sin that leads to damnation. This is how those verses have been used for centuries to control the minds of the sheep.

Now let's consider the words you quoted, and see how the relate to the question at hand:

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Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of Me,) to do thy will, O God.

I have always loved this verse. I loved thinking of how the Bible predicted the coming of Christ, and how Christ fulfilled the prophecies. But that all fits under the category of "personal devotion" which appears to be the noly thing the Bible is good for since folks dispute the meaning of every word of it, no matter how plainly written. It is, therefore, useless as a "proof" of anything that folks do not already want to believe.


=================================================
Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of Me and of My words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when He cometh in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.

When I first read this, the words "ashamed" jumped out, and I felt that you were accusing me of being ashamed of the Bible because of the discussions we have had about God ordering the murder of innocent children. So again, I could feel the :eek: >>>fear<<< :eek: that overcomes the minds of those who have been taught never to question the Bible. But that fear did not remain because I realized that Jesus was talking about the direct response of his first century audience to him and the words he was speaking to them. He is not talking about the Bible as a whole, so the fact that I am "ashamed" of some aspects of Scripture has nothing to do with this verse. This is an example of the logical fallacy of conflation - overlapping and identifying two things that are actually distinct. This is one of the most common errors found in fundamentalist hermeneutics. Any mention of the "Word of God" in Scripture is taken to apply to the thing we no call the Bible. It is possible, of course, for God in his foreknowledge to reference the whole Bible within itself, but this must be taken on a case by case basis. It is wrong to merely assume that Jesus was talking about the Bible in the verse above.


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Proverbs 1:23 Turn you at My reproof: behold, I will pour out My spirit unto you, I will make known My words unto you.

Again, this is a perfect example of why the Bible is useful for personal devotion to whatever God a person believes it speaks of. But it also is a very dangerous verse, since it might incline some folks (like you) to mistake your own interpretations for revelations from God. There are few mental problems more dangerous than an inflated ego justified by Scripture.


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Proverbs 4:5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of My mouth.

And again, another excellent verse showing that the Bible is great for personal devotion.


=================================================
Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Ha! This is the funniest example because this verse plainly states that the events of Revelation would happen in the first century. But you adamantly and absolutely deny what it says. It is one of the best examples of why the Bible becomes meaningless in the hands of those who do not like what it says.



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John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Again, those are great words to meditate upon in personal devotion.



=================================================
John 12:48 He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Again, another :eek: >>>fear<<< :eek: verse, but the fear subsides when we realize that Christ was not talking about the Bible as a whole. What does it mean to accept the words of Christ? That would be an interesting discussion, but one thing we know for sure - it does not mean that I have to accept every conflicting interpretation of his words that I hear coming from every Mormon, Futurist, Jehovah Witness, or cult leader or Baptist preacher! Get it? We are right back to square one. The Bible is good only for personal devotion because God did not give a book with sufficient clarity to overcome all the conflicting opinions. The amazing thing is that he could have done so if he had chosen. For example, there is absolutely no dispute about the interpretation of a basic calculus textbook. How is it that humans achieved what God could not?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

We can make connections from the Bible to the physical world like I did in the science part of the forum. Like we all walk around in a 1:4 ratio. So it's not only a Personal Devotion Book when we understand the science part of the forum..

It's a... Public Discovery Channel :)

So it's not a PDB but a PDC
I'd call that a form of "personal devotion" because the results are not based on objective scientific principles.

Granted, that could be a shortcoming of modern science, but that remains to be seen. And until science "catches up" with your insights into Scripture, they will remain "personal."

[whirlwind]

Hey there Whirlwind,

Those are powerful verses. They have a strong impact on the mind. They immediately cause :eek: >>>fear<<< :eek: that the mere act of questioning the Bible and thinking for myself indicates a lack of faith and could be a sin that leads to damnation. This is how those verses have been used for centuries to control the minds of the sheep.


Those words caused fear? Why?



{snip}






Again, another :eek: >>>fear<<< :eek: verse, but the fear subsides when we realize that Christ was not talking about the Bible as a whole. What does it mean to accept the words of Christ? That would be an interesting discussion, but one thing we know for sure - it does not mean that I have to accept every conflicting interpretation of his words that I hear coming from every Mormon, Futurist, Jehovah Witness, or cult leader or Baptist preacher! Get it? We are right back to square one. The Bible is good only for personal devotion because God did not give a book with sufficient clarity to overcome all the conflicting opinions. The amazing thing is that he could have done so if he had chosen. For example, there is absolutely no dispute about the interpretation of a basic calculus textbook. How is it that humans achieved what God could not?


Did "every Mormon, futurist, PRETERIST, cult leader, etc," write the Bible? No, so you aren't being asked to agree with them. It is HIS WORDS contained in the volume. It is His Words we must find agreement with.



.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Those are powerful verses. They have a strong impact on the mind. They immediately cause :eek: >>>fear<<< :eek: that the mere act of questioning the Bible and thinking for myself indicates a lack of faith and could be a sin that leads to damnation. This is how those verses have been used for centuries to control the minds of the sheep.
Those words caused fear? Why?

Dude ... didn't you read the words I wrote? Why do I always have to repeat myself? Read it again and you will have your answer.




Did "every Mormon, futurist, PRETERIST, cult leader, etc," write the Bible? No, so you aren't being asked to agree with them. It is HIS WORDS contained in the volume. It is His Words we must find agreement with.

Well done! I should have added the "Preterist" myself. :clap2:

Now are you saying that each and every word of the Bible should be understood as "HIS WORDS"? I very much would like to know what you think about this question.

[whirlwind]

Dude ... didn't you read the words I wrote? Why do I always have to repeat myself? Read it again and you will have your answer.



Well done! I should have added the "Preterist" myself. :clap2:

Now are you saying that each and every word of the Bible should be understood as "HIS WORDS"? I very much would like to know what you think about this question.



11 Timothy 3:15-17 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.





.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Now are you saying that each and every word of the Bible should be understood as "HIS WORDS"? I very much would like to know what you think about this question.
11 Timothy 3:15-17 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

I understand you answer and it could be true that God inspired Paul to use the phrase "all Scripture" with the intent of it applying to the whole Bible later when was finally completed. But that involves a lot of interpretation that goes beyond what is actually written in the text. If we read Paul in context, then we know that the only "Scripture" that existed at the time he wrote that verse was the Old Testament. So you did not answer my question about "each and every word of the Bible" unless I assume that you have interpreted the phrase "all Scripture" in the anachronistic and non-contextual sense of the modern Protestant Bible. But that also implies that you have secretly inserted an entire tradition of very contentious interpretation which rejects the apocryphal books of the Catholic and Greek Orthodox Bibles! Now the fact that I happen to agree that the apocrypha should be rejected does not give you license to pass off your own interpretation as "what the Bible really says."

This exemplifies the fundamental delusion of Biblical fundamentalists. They do not realize that they are interpreting the text just like everyone else who reads the Bible. It appears you are under the delusion that you do not "interpret" the Bible. There could be no greater error because it short-circuits your brain and makes you entirely unaware that you are mistaking your own fallible ideas and interpretations for the very Truth of God. This is a serious delusion that should be avoided by all people.

All the best,

Richard

[CWH]

I understand you answer and it could be true that God inspired Paul to use the phrase "all Scripture" with the intent of it applying to the whole Bible later when was finally completed. But that involves a lot of interpretation that goes beyond what is actually written in the text. If we read Paul in context, then we know that the only "Scripture" that existed at the time he wrote that verse was the Old Testament. So you did not answer my question about "each and every word of the Bible" unless I assume that you have interpreted the phrase "all Scripture" in the anachronistic and non-contextual sense of the modern Protestant Bible. But that also implies that you have secretly inserted an entire tradition of very contentious interpretation which rejects the apocryphal books of the Catholic and Greek Orthodox Bibles! Now the fact that I happen to agree that the apocrypha should be rejected does not give you license to pass off your own interpretation as "what the Bible really says."

This exemplifies the fundamental delusion of Biblical fundamentalists. They do not realize that they are interpreting the text just like everyone else who reads the Bible. It appears you are under the delusion that you do not "interpret" the Bible. There could be no greater error because it short-circuits your brain and makes you entirely unaware that you are mistaking your own fallible ideas and interpretations for the very Truth of God. This is a serious delusion that should be avoided by all people.

All the best,

Richard

I have to disagree that "if we read Paul in context, then we know that the only "Scripture" that existed at the time he wrote that verse was the Old Testament" because several books of the NT such as the gospel of Mark was believe to be written as early as AD 40s or AD 50s. And since Paul died in mid AD 60's and he wrote Timothy somewhere in the AD 60s, I believe he must have read at least the gospel of Mark.

There are some conflicting datings of when the New Testament was written:

http://www.errantskeptics.org/DatingNT.htm

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I have to disagree that "if we read Paul in context, then we know that the only "Scripture" that existed at the time he wrote that verse was the Old Testament" because several books of the NT such as the gospel of Mark was believe to be written as early as AD 40s or AD 50s. And since Paul died in mid AD 60's and he wrote Timothy somewhere in the AD 60s, I believe he must have read at least the gospel of Mark.

There are some conflicting datings of when the New Testament was written:

http://www.errantskeptics.org/DatingNT.htm

Many Blessings.
Good point Cheow, but it's really just a technicality that does not change my conclusion. We don't know which NT books existed and were considered "Scripture" at the time Paul wrote that verse, but we do know that the whole Bible had not been finished and collected together as such.

[alec cotton]

Of all the things the Bible might be….we know one thing for sure that it is NOT, and that is an instruction book, because nobody agrees on how to interpret it...:dontknow: :dizzy: :confused2:

Rose

Rose wrote 2.7.11. 'Of all the things the bible is, it is not an instruction book!' Richard concurred and said 'Bottom line: The Bible is useless for anything but personal devotion to whatever God one thinks it speaks of. If these two statements are valid then this forum is a farce. It is little more than an intellectual gymnasium where egotists can pump up their self esteem . There is the rowing machine where anyone can sit and go through the motions and get nowhere. Of course there is always the treadmill where great strides are made but no progress is ever seen . Oh! You hear lots of huffing and puffing but the final product is only hot air. If the statements are true the the bible is self defeating. It makes the claim that all scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for doctrine,for reproof,for correction,for instruction in righteousness. It also states that the word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.If it is not a book of instruction in righteousness then it has no more relevance than Enid Blytons sunny stories or Grimm's fairy tales. I am convinced to the very marrow of my bones that the Bible is true . I will stake my life and my eternal destiny on it.
Alec

[whirlwind]

Rose wrote 2.7.11. 'Of all the things the bible is, it is not an instruction book!' Richard concurred and said 'Bottom line: The Bible is useless for anything but personal devotion to whatever God one thinks it speaks of. If these two statements are valid then this forum is a farce. It is little more than an intellectual gymnasium where egotists can pump up their self esteem . There is the rowing machine where anyone can sit and go through the motions and get nowhere. Of course there is always the treadmill where great strides are made but no progress is ever seen . Oh! You hear lots of huffing and puffing but the final product is only hot air. If the statements are true the the bible is self defeating. It makes the claim that all scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for doctrine,for reproof,for correction,for instruction in righteousness. It also states that the word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.If it is not a book of instruction in righteousness then it has no more relevance than Enid Blytons sunny stories or Grimm's fairy tales. I am convinced to the very marrow of my bones that the Bible is true . I will stake my life and my eternal destiny on it.
Alec



Our lives and eternal destiny are indeed "staked on it." On every Word!



.

[Rose]

Rose wrote 2.7.11. 'Of all the things the bible is, it is not an instruction book!' Richard concurred and said 'Bottom line: The Bible is useless for anything but personal devotion to whatever God one thinks it speaks of. If these two statements are valid then this forum is a farce. It is little more than an intellectual gymnasium where egotists can pump up their self esteem . There is the rowing machine where anyone can sit and go through the motions and get nowhere. Of course there is always the treadmill where great strides are made but no progress is ever seen . Oh! You hear lots of huffing and puffing but the final product is only hot air. If the statements are true the the bible is self defeating. It makes the claim that all scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for doctrine,for reproof,for correction,for instruction in righteousness. It also states that the word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.If it is not a book of instruction in righteousness then it has no more relevance than Enid Blytons sunny stories or Grimm's fairy tales. I am convinced to the very marrow of my bones that the Bible is true . I will stake my life and my eternal destiny on it.
Alec

Hi Alec,

I expected you would not be too happy with my opening post...:p but its statement remains totally valid!

The Bible does indeed make the statement that all scripture is inspired and profitable for doctrine, but what does that really mean? The point I have been harping on with Whirlwind is that the only way the Bible can be understood is through human interpretation, and as you well know, and this Forum clearly displays....humans interpret the Bible in as many ways as their are people....no one agrees about anything...:eek:

Now we all know that people are able to clearly write instructions for other people to follow - it's done all the time - so, why couldn't the Bible have been written in a clear and unambiguous way?

If God intended for man to use the Bible for a guide book to direct our lives, there sure are a lot of folk in disagreement about what is being said...:confused:

Blessings,
Rose

[CWH]

Hi Alec,

I expected you would not be too happy with my opening post...:p but its statement remains totally valid!

The Bible does indeed make the statement that all scripture is inspired and profitable for doctrine, but what does that really mean? The point I have been harping on with Whirlwind is that the only way the Bible can be understood is through human interpretation, and as you well know, and this Forum clearly displays....humans interpret the Bible in as many ways as their are people....no one agrees about anything...:eek:

Now we all know that people are able to clearly write instructions for other people to follow - it's done all the time - so, why couldn't the Bible have been written in a clear and unambiguous way?

If God intended for man to use the Bible for a guide book to direct our lives, there sure are a lot of folk in disagreement about what is being said...:confused:

Blessings,
Rose

I have said umpteen times in this forum that God wants us to debate, study, discuss, meditate on Him so as to understand Him more. The more you understand Him the more will be given thus ensuring faith, righteousness and wisdom. Why do you think Jesus talked in parables and use symbolisms?... so that we are forced to find out more from His ambiguous meanings and see from different perspectives, and this resulted in the many Christian denominations that we have. It is not a bad thing though, so that no denomination can claim that they are the true and only Christian religion and pride themselves about it, leading to their fall. Ultimately the truth will be known when we goes to heaven or when the Lord returns. All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for doctrine,for reproof,for correction,for instruction in righteousness.

Now to answer your question:

Now we all know that people are able to clearly write instructions for other people to follow - it's done all the time - so, why couldn't the Bible have been written in a clear and unambiguous way?

Imagine a teacher were to give his students very clear answers to exam questions all the time, will the students be motivated to learn and research deeply into the subjects? ....will the students be more lazy and complacent...what value is there to gain from the students? A good teacher would just taught the students and give the students some tips which could be rather ambiguous and thus motivate the students to research, learn, discuss, study deeply into the subjects and gain much more understanding for themselves. And the more the students understand about the subject, the more they want to learn and thus gain the interest and mastery of the subjects taught. The important thing is not the exam questions but the understanding and mastery of the subjects taught and perhaps lead to new discoveries.

Many Blessings.

[Rose]

I have said umpteen times in this forum that God wants us to debate, study, discuss, meditate on Him so as to understand Him more. The more you understand Him the more will be given thus ensuring faith, righteousness and wisdom. Why do you think Jesus talked in parables and use symbolisms?... so that we are forced to find out more from His ambiguous meanings and see from different perspectives, and this resulted in the many Christian denominations that we have. It is not a bad thing though, so that no denomination can claim that they are the true and only Christian religion and pride themselves about it, leading to their fall. Ultimately the truth will be known when we goes to heaven or when the Lord returns. All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for doctrine,for reproof,for correction,for instruction in righteousness.

Now to answer your question:


Imagine a teacher were to give his students very clear answers to exam questions all the time, will the students be motivated to learn and research deeply into the subjects? ....will the students be more lazy and complacent...what value is there to gain from the students? A good teacher would just taught the students and give the students some tips which could be rather ambiguous and thus motivate the students to research, learn, discuss, study deeply into the subjects and gain much more understanding for themselves. And the more the students understand about the subject, the more they want to learn and thus gain the interest and mastery of the subjects taught. The important thing is not the exam questions but the understanding and mastery of the subjects taught and perhaps lead to new discoveries.

Many Blessings.

What I meant by writing an instruction book that is clear and unambiguous for folks to follow, is that there is no sense in having to keep inventing the wheel, and that is what I see happening. I don't see any benefit that has come from all the endless debate and division over what the Bible is saying....all I see is harm.

A good teacher imparts wisdom, and knowledge to his students that is understandable to them, so they are well equipped to learn by discovery, but if the knowledge from the teacher is presented in such a way as to be unclear and ambiguous to the student, he is left with a handicap instead of a truth he can use to grow with.

Blessings,
Rose

[CWH]

What I meant by writing an instruction book that is clear and unambiguous for folks to follow, is that there is no sense in having to keep inventing the wheel, and that is what I see happening. I don't see any benefit that has come from all the endless debate and division over what the Bible is saying....all I see is harm.

A good teacher imparts wisdom, and knowledge to his students that is understandable to them, so they are well equipped to learn by discovery, but if the knowledge from the teacher is presented in such a way as to be unclear and ambiguous to the student, he is left with a handicap instead of a truth he can use to grow with.

Blessings,
Rose

I believe the harm you are talking about is backsliding into satan's realm. That's exactly what Satan wants to do, to deceive us even the elect if we are vulnerable and the only defence that we have is to trust and have faith in the Lord and to gain as many understanding and wisdom as possible so that we are not so easily deceived. The important thing is not the harm but to ensure that faith and trust in the Lord is maintain throughout our life....whoever persevere will be saved.

Yes, a good teacher imparts wisdom, and knowledge to his students that is understandable to them, so they are well equipped to learn by discovery, but if the knowledge from the teacher is presented in such a way as to be unclear and ambiguous to the student, he is left with a handicap instead of a truth he can use to grow with.
But it also depends on the student himself if he is interested enough to go deeper and research into the subject taught and learn more, so even if the subject taught is unclear, he will be motivated to dig into and gain much better understandings for himself. However, if the student is disinterested, whatever knowledge or wisdom is imparted to him will be wasted, not to say motivated to dig in more. This is what happened to the Pharisees and the Sadduccees of Jesus time. Jesus provided new wisdom and understanding of God in His teachings but the Pharisees and Sadducees have their evil and preconceived ideas of God and refused to listen to Jesus or meditate on His teachings. They refused to learned and repent from their errorneous belief and way of life to gain righteouness and wisdom (such as the resurrection and marriage in heaven). Such rejection of the teaching of Jesus will only lead to their doom.

Many Blessings.

[alec cotton]

Hello Rose
Didn't your mother tell you that you can't have your cake and eat it? .You said :'Of all the things the Bible might be , one thing it is not and that is an instruction book.
Richard concurred and said :' Bottom line:The Bible is useless for anything but personal devotion to whatever God one thinks it speaks of.' In that case it is futile for you to turn to the Bible to support your conclusions , because it means exactly what you want it to mean . Nothing more and nothing less It means precisely what I think it means exactly. Now , to consider the absurd notion of equality of men and women we are thrown back on logic,reason and observation. Women are not ,never were and never will be equal to men . A big man can beat a big woman any time . Women do not compete on equal terms with men in the Olympics . Women often beat their husbands up and that is considered rather amusing. When a man beats his wife up , that is a crime . If a man bullies his wife then that is considered to be a problem which needs to be addressed with the utmost urgency. When a wife bullies her husband for years then he is called a wimp and undeserving of sympathy. There is no point in saying This or that should be or ought to be . That is only one opinion. The fact remains that women are not equal to men. Women strive for positions of authority in the church . What for ? . It is mostly to secure a soft , well paid , highly esteemed position. The race is on for superiority , money and power. IT'S A POWER GAME. If a woman touches a man up then it is considered cute or even complimentary. If a man does the same to a woman it is considered a very serious crime and will invoke the wrath of the authorities. Where is equality.? It does not exist. A heavily pregnant woman can't wield a pick and shovel all day or climb a ladder with a hod full of bricks or crouch in a coal mine , sweating and straining . Where' the equality?. In any family situation there must be social order. It would be absolute madness to suggest that the children should have an equal say in the realm of household management. The man must be recognised as the head of the household. As soon as the man or the wife step into the workplace the social order is apparent again . The worker is under the supervision of the foreman who is subservient to the manager who answerers to the director who must submit to the rules of the government. At the very top there is always one . That one may be called Tzar,Caesar, Kaiser, President ,chancellor ,Induna ,King or Queen. It does not matter . That one is at the pinnacle of the social order and nothing can change it. Woman ! Know your place.
Alec

[CWH]

That's an excellent post alec. :congrats:

I believe Rose must be the Chairwoman of the Women's Right Inc. I am not against Women's right and I do believe that women in the past were oppressed by male dominance. But to give women equal right as men may not be a good idea as have been stated very well by alec.

If God wanted to make women of equal right as men why didn't He did so in Genesis when He first created Adam and Eve? Instead he made woman a helper of man which seems to suggest someone of a lower rank than man. And according to Genesis, it was the woman who sinned first and then make the man sinned. That is why, I doubt if making women of equal right to men is a good idea....will men continue to sin even more because of women (lust etc.) if women is of equal right to men. Please, no bad intention towards women.... just a thought for discussion. I believe God made a wise decision based on His wisdom not to make women equal to men.

Many Blessings.

[Rose]

Hello Rose
Didn't your mother tell you that you can't have your cake and eat it? .You said :”Of all the things the Bible might be , one thing it is not and that is an instruction book.
Richard concurred and said :” Bottom line:The Bible is useless for anything but personal devotion to whatever God one thinks it speaks of.” In that case it is futile for you to turn to the Bible to support your conclusions , because it means exactly what you want it to mean . Nothing more and nothing less It means precisely what I think it means exactly. Now , to consider the absurd notion of equality of men and women we are thrown back on logic,reason and observation. Women are not ,never were and never will be equal to men . A big man can beat a big woman any time . Women do not compete on equal terms with men in the Olympics . Women often beat their husbands up and that is considered rather amusing. When a man beats his wife up , that is a crime . If a man bullies his wife then that is considered to be a problem which needs to be addressed with the utmost urgency. When a wife bullies her husband for years then he is called a wimp and undeserving of sympathy. There is no point in saying This or that should be or ought to be . That is only one opinion. The fact remains that women are not equal to men. Women strive for positions of authority in the church . What for ? . It is mostly to secure a soft , well paid , highly esteemed position. The race is on for superiority , money and power. IT'S A POWER GAME. If a woman touches a man up then it is considered cute or even complimentary. If a man does the same to a woman it is considered a very serious crime and will invoke the wrath of the authorities. Where is equality.? It does not exist. A heavily pregnant woman can't wield a pick and shovel all day or climb a ladder with a hod full of bricks or crouch in a coal mine , sweating and straining . Where' the equality?. In any family situation there must be social order. It would be absolute madness to suggest that the children should have an equal say in the realm of household management. The man must be recognised as the head of the household. As soon as the man or the wife step into the workplace the social order is apparent again . The worker is under the supervision of the foreman who is subservient to the manager who answerers to the director who must submit to the rules of the government. At the very top there is always one . That one may be called Tzar,Caesar, Kaiser, President ,chancellor ,Induna ,King or Queen. It does not matter . That one is at the pinnacle of the social order and nothing can change it. Woman ! Know your place.
Alec

Hi Alec,

It is a sad thing indeed if this is what the words of the Bible have driven men to think....pardon my saying so, but you must be pretty dense if you are equating physical strength with intellectual capacity...:p A big man can beat up a small man any day of the week! Does that mean the big, muscular man is intellectually superior to the weak man....I think not!

To compare a child managing a household, to that of a woman makes me think you must have momentarily set aside your intelligence? :p

Once again, let me reiterate....brute strength had nothing to do with equality of intelligence! If everything was based on physical size, and strength we'd still be back in the stone-age...:p

Rose

[Rose]

That's an excellent post alec. :congrats:

I believe Rose must be the Chairwoman of the Women's Right Inc. I am not against Women's right and I do believe that women in the past were oppressed by male dominance. But to give women equal right as men may not be a good idea as have been stated very well by alec.

If God wanted to make women of equal right as men why didn't He did so in Genesis when He first created Adam and Eve? Instead he made woman a helper of man which seems to suggest someone of a lower rank than man. And according to Genesis, it was the woman who sinned first and then make the man sinned. That is why, I doubt if making women of equal right to men is a good idea....will men continue to sin even more because of women (lust etc.) if women is of equal right to men. Please, no bad intention towards women.... just a thought for discussion. I believe God made a wise decision based on His wisdom not to make women equal to men.

Many Blessings.

I must say I am highly disappointed in you Cheow! I somewhat understood Alec's position....mostly because of his age and era he grew up in, but what's your excuse Cheow? Just plain ignorance or what? :confused:
Gen.1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen.2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Do you understand what the above verses are saying, or do I need to explain them to you? :sFun_banghead2: What part of ONE FLESH don't you understand? :dontknow:

This is where I think your ideas about women belong...:chores037:

Rose

[CWH]

I must say I am highly disappointed in you Cheow! I somewhat understood Alec's position....mostly because of his age and era he grew up in, but what's your excuse Cheow? Just plain ignorance or what? :confused:
Gen.1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen.2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Do you understand what the above verses are saying, or do I need to explain them to you? :sFun_banghead2: What part of ONE FLESH don't you understand? :dontknow:

This is where I think your ideas about women belong...:chores037:

Rose

Your defensive response is understandable but this is not what I intended. What I am saying is will it do more harm than good if females are equal to males. Looking at the animal's world, seldom females are the head of the herd such as lions, elephants, monkeys etc....why? Was that what God intended when He created the animals. Imagine God appointed Abraham, Moses, David, Noah, Daniel, Jesus, to be females, would it caused more harm or issues or repercussions? But they were all males.....why? I do not know. I am not against women having more rights and neither am I a male chauvinist but I am not sure if increasing social problems such as divorces, lusts, adulteries, marital discords etc. have anything to do with more liberal rights given to women. Just food for thoughts....well, God have His ways.

Many Blessings.

[alec cotton]

Good point Cheow, but it's really just a technicality that does not change my conclusion. We don't know which NT books existed and were considered "Scripture" at the time Paul wrote that verse, but we do know that the whole Bible had not been finished and collected together as such.

Richard Amiel Mc Gough
How can you sleep at night after twisting , turning, wriggling and writhing like that You are now casting doubts on the integrity of the (complete ) Bible as we now have it and yet you initiated the Bible wheel to establish the concept that the work is complete. Have you turned from loyalty to treason?. Have you turned from faith to doubt ?. Havee you changed sides and become the soulmate of satan?. Have you changed colour and turned your coat. ?. You have enough intelligence to know that such a course can only lead to disaster.
Alec

[alec cotton]

I must say I am highly disappointed in you Cheow! I somewhat understood Alec's position....mostly because of his age and era he grew up in, but what's your excuse Cheow? Just plain ignorance or what? :confused:
Gen.1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen.2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Do you understand what the above verses are saying, or do I need to explain them to you? :sFun_banghead2: What part of ONE FLESH don't you understand? :dontknow:

This is where I think your ideas about women belong...:chores037:

Rose
Hello Rose!
Still on speaking terms with your superiors?: the ones who wear the trousers that is. Ever considered going in for boxing ?. With your talent you would be a natural. With your skill at bobbing .ducking ,dodging and weaving , no one would lay a glove on you and your footwork is impeccable . I'll bet that you could have shown saint vitus a thing or two. And your strength !. The speed at which you move the goal posts : you seem to have the muscles of superman. First you quote the bible for support and then then deny that it is a reliable guide. When logic is introduced you change course and claim that women should be judged by their superiority of intellect. It just won't work!. Eve was deceived because she had no brains Adam had 'em but he was seduced by that twister of a woman . He didn't have much choice: women were a bit thin on the ground at that time. I read an article in the paper the other day/ Headline: Good news! Scientists have proved that men have bigger brains than women. Bad news; They don't use them . Women do not want to be equal with men but to be dominant . If the feminist idea was to predominate then the higher intellectuals (women) would be served by the lower mortals(men) who would do all the dirty, menial, unpleasant tasks.. We men have too much intelligence to allow that to happen . Sorry to burst your bubble but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
Alec

[Rose]

Hello Rose!
Still on speaking terms with your superiors?: the ones who wear the trousers that is. Ever considered going in for boxing ?. With your talent you would be a natural. With your skill at bobbing .ducking ,dodging and weaving , no one would lay a glove on you and your footwork is impeccable . I'll bet that you could have shown saint vitus a thing or two. And your strength !. The speed at which you move the goal posts : you seem to have the muscles of superman. First you quote the bible for support and then then deny that it is a reliable guide. When logic is introduced you change course and claim that women should be judged by their superiority of intellect. It just won't work!. Eve was deceived because she had no brains Adam had 'em but he was seduced by that twister of a woman . He didn't have much choice: women were a bit thin on the ground at that time. I read an article in the paper the other day/ Headline: Good news! Scientists have proved that men have bigger brains than women. Bad news; They don't use them . Women do not want to be equal with men but to be dominant . If the feminist idea was to predominate then the higher intellectuals (women) would be served by the lower mortals(men) who would do all the dirty, menial, unpleasant tasks.. We men have too much intelligence to allow that to happen . Sorry to burst your bubble but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
Alec

Since jeans are my mode of dress, I guess I'm my own superior....:p

Now on to your second highly intellectual statement about Eve having no brains....that says it all....:hysterical:

Concluding with your last bit of prose....I think my dear man it is your bubble that has been burst....brains has won out over brawn...:lmbo::rofl:

Rose

[Rose]

Your defensive response is understandable but this is not what I intended. What I am saying is will it do more harm than good if females are equal to males. Looking at the animal's world, seldom females are the head of the herd such as lions, elephants, monkeys etc....why? Was that what God intended when He created the animals. Imagine God appointed Abraham, Moses, David, Noah, Daniel, Jesus, to be females, would it caused more harm or issues or repercussions? But they were all males.....why? I do not know. I am not against women having more rights and neither am I a male chauvinist but I am not sure if increasing social problems such as divorces, lusts, adulteries, marital discords etc. have anything to do with more liberal rights given to women. Just food for thoughts....well, God have His ways.

Many Blessings.

I'm sorry to say Cheow, your post is so full of garbage that I don't want to bother sorting through it, so I'm chucking the whole lot in the trash can where it belongs.....:chores037:

Rose

[kathryn]

Poor Alex. All I can say is: you are missing out on so much in your understanding of who God is. You will be in my prayers and I don't say that sarcastically.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard Amiel Mc Gough
How can you sleep at night after twisting , turning, wriggling and writhing like that You are now casting doubts on the integrity of the (complete ) Bible as we now have it and yet you initiated the Bible wheel to establish the concept that the work is complete. Have you turned from loyalty to treason?. Have you turned from faith to doubt ?. Havee you changed sides and become the soulmate of satan?. Have you changed colour and turned your coat. ?. You have enough intelligence to know that such a course can only lead to disaster.
Alec
Hey there Alec,

I'm quite surprised by your accusation that I am "casting doubts on the integrity of the (complete) Bible." Have you forgotten that you declared the book of Acts to be "seriously wrong" and that your "confidence was shattered" in this post (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?p=20635#post20635)?


The thread drew my attention to the book of acts. I had been arranging my ideas about the sequence of events when the question arose as to the stoning of Stephen. This is where the book of acts is seen to be so seriously wrong. This is where my confidence was shattered. It relates in great detail how Stephen came to serve gentile widows in the assembly when in fact the first gentile was not converted until long after his death The book of acts relates the account of Paul. It states that paul was right away in Jerusalem with Peter and other apostles ,when paul himself, writes that upon conversion he did not go to Jerusalem and meet with the others but went to Arabia for three years. At that point I was so despondent that I was ready to discard the whole bible. It was then that I recalled the early days when for years I strove to find and understand the meaning of numbers in scripture. I stumbled across a booklet called 'The shorter works of Ivan pannin'.I thought that I had found the holy grail. I devoured it avidly and then I discovered an error which demolished the whole structure .For years I forsook the concept of what I now know as gematria. Recalling those things I thought ' Why should I dismiss the whole bible just because one book is seen to be in error . It just draws my attention to the fact that it is incumbent on me to try all things, prove all things and hold fast that which is good..
Alec
If you recall that conversation, the reason you concluded the Bible was wrong was because it contradicted your personal opinion about the relation between the Jews and the Gentiles! Rather than correcting your opinion, you declared the Bible invalid. Very interesting.

Now let me answer your questions:

Have you turned from loyalty to treason?.
No. I am faithful to truth to the best of my ability.

Have you turned from faith to doubt ?.
Faith and doubt are not opposites. I have always had both.

Havee you changed sides and become the soulmate of satan?.
No.

Have you changed colour and turned your coat. ?.
No. I'm just speaking truth about the Bible to the best of my ability. If you find any errors in my statements, please let me know.

All the best,

Richard

[alec cotton]

Poor Alex. All I can say is: you are missing out on so much in your understanding of who God is. You will be in my prayers and I don't say that sarcastically.

Hello Kath I missed your post . It was only just now that I was trawling that I came accross it . Please do not waste your sympathy . My concept of God is the one who set the stars in space and called them all by name . The one who created Diriboneucleic acid and carefully measured the atoms in it . The great creator who is perfectly aware of every molecule in the universe. This infinirely powerful intelligent force caused a book to be written for my guidence and for my instruction so that I am able to lead a richer , fuller more satisfying existence. I am not looking for a great big giant sittind on a throne up in the sky with a bag of goodies in one hand and a big stick in the other. I am aware of one who knows how many hairs are on my head and the the day of my departure which he has appointed . While I am here I will try to live according to his guide book.
Alec