The Bible Wheel's Purpose

[Rose]

The Bible Wheel displays the 5 New Testament history books as a “Key” which completes the 2nd cycle, thus letting the prophecies of the Old Testament concerning the coming of Christ find their fulfillment, completing the 2nd cycle, and revealing the “Seal” of the Tri-Radiant Halo. The 22 Epistles which make up the 3rd cycle finish the structure of the Wheel, thus completing the whole pattern….allowing connections to be made through word relations on Spokes, and alphabetically.

http://www.biblewheel.com/intro/images/colorBW_500.jpg

So, then what does this pattern that seems to prove the Bible was designed by God, tell us about it application for us today? Some of the first things that come to mind are the way the prophecies of a coming Messiah contained in the Old Testament are fulfilled in the first century, those fulfillments being contained in the first 5 New Testament history books, thus completing the 2nd cycle, forming a symbolic seal which integrates the 1st cycle with the second, and the Old with the New.

What this tells me more than anything else is that the Bible is a complete set of books. Its purpose, I feel is to show the historical progress of mans perception of God through their myths, customs, and traditions, which ultimately climaxes with Christ’s true revelation of God recorded in the New Testament.

Looking at the Bible any other way manifests many contradictions and errors, simply because the way God is portrayed in the Old Testament is far different than the way He is presented by Christ in the New Testament, and there is no way these two portrayals can ever be reconciled as both revealing God’s true nature. With this in mind it becomes evident that what the Bible Wheel is presenting to us is a sealed, finished work, recording God’s place in the history of man….all, but the revelation of God through Christ, is the human perspective of God, through their many myths, customs, and traditions. It is this revelation of God through Christ that completes the cycle and manifests the seal, declaring a finished work!

As the perception of a child changes with their maturity, they see things in a completely different manner as the eyes of their understanding develop a depth of wisdom, knowing things that were not able to be comprehended until the level of empathic capacity reaches its fullness. Such is the case with the development of mankind’s perception of the Biblical presentation of God; it must mature and develop. This is why the Bible can be used as a true measure, showing where a Believer is at in their stage of development, by the way in which they interpret Scripture.

The Bible contains many types of writings, showing where people of different time-periods were at in relation to their idea of God, through myths, traditions, and customs. It is how we as modern thinkers apply those ideas that is a direct reflection of our level of understanding the purpose of the Bible….not as a book to draw us back into immature ways of thinking, but rather as a window into our past with which to look and see how far we’ve come.

Rose

[Nosbigmit]

tgibson3007@gmail.com"Beware lest there be any man that spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit,through the traditions of men,according to the rudiments of the world,and not after Christ." "If ye have heard(or read) of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: how that by revelation He made known unto me the mystery:as I wrote afore in few words,whereby,when ye read,ye may UNDERSTAND my knowledge in the mystery of Christ."

[gilgal]

The Bible Wheel displays the 5 New Testament history books as a 'Key' which completes the 2nd cycle, thus letting the prophecies of the Old Testament concerning the coming of Christ find their fulfillment, completing the 2nd cycle, and revealing the 'Seal' of the Tri-Radiant Halo. The 22 Epistles which make up the 3rd cycle finish the structure of the Wheel, thus completing the whole pattern….allowing connections to be made through word relations on Spokes, and alphabetically.

http://www.biblewheel.com/intro/images/colorBW_500.jpg

So, then what does this pattern that seems to prove the Bible was designed by God, tell us about it application for us today? Some of the first things that come to mind are the way the prophecies of a coming Messiah contained in the Old Testament are fulfilled in the first century, those fulfillments being contained in the first 5 New Testament history books, thus completing the 2nd cycle, forming a symbolic seal which integrates the 1st cycle with the second, and the Old with the New.

What this tells me more than anything else is that the Bible is a complete set of books. Its purpose, I feel is to show the historical progress of mans perception of God through their myths, customs, and traditions, which ultimately climaxes with Christ’s true revelation of God recorded in the New Testament.

Looking at the Bible any other way manifests many contradictions and errors, simply because the way God is portrayed in the Old Testament is far different than the way He is presented by Christ in the New Testament, and there is no way these two portrayals can ever be reconciled as both revealing God’s true nature. With this in mind it becomes evident that what the Bible Wheel is presenting to us is a sealed, finished work, recording God’s place in the history of man….all, but the revelation of God through Christ, is the human perspective of God, through their many myths, customs, and traditions. It is this revelation of God through Christ that completes the cycle and manifests the seal, declaring a finished work!

As the perception of a child changes with their maturity, they see things in a completely different manner as the eyes of their understanding develop a depth of wisdom, knowing things that were not able to be comprehended until the level of empathic capacity reaches its fullness. Such is the case with the development of mankind’s perception of the Biblical presentation of God; it must mature and develop. This is why the Bible can be used as a true measure, showing where a Believer is at in their stage of development, by the way in which they interpret Scripture.

The Bible contains many types of writings, showing where people of different time-periods were at in relation to their idea of God, through myths, traditions, and customs. It is how we as modern thinkers apply those ideas that is a direct reflection of our level of understanding the purpose of the Bible….not as a book to draw us back into immature ways of thinking, but rather as a window into our past with which to look and see how far we’ve come.

Rose
I really miss the discussion of the biblewheel in this forum. I keep thinking how to introduce the biblewheel to a novice without being doubted or rejected. Back in school we were first introduced to be able to count in math. Then we learned additions and subtractions. Then we learned multiplications and divisions. Then we went on to more complicated things. If we had learned the more complicated things first we would be lost.

I miss Victor. Where is he? Keep up the posts!

[Richard Amiel McGough]

tgibson3007@gmail.com"Beware lest there be any man that spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit,through the traditions of men,according to the rudiments of the world,and not after Christ." "If ye have heard(or read) of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: how that by revelation He made known unto me the mystery:as I wrote afore in few words,whereby,when ye read,ye may UNDERSTAND my knowledge in the mystery of Christ."
What does your post have to do with the purpose of the Bible Wheel?

And what did you mean when you titled your post "Will Worship Website"?

[Bob May]

The Bible Wheel displays the 5 New Testament history books as a “Key” which

So, then what does this pattern that seems to prove the Bible was designed by God, tell us about it application for us today? Some of the first things that come to mind are the way the prophecies of a coming Messiah contained in the Old Testament are fulfilled in the first century, those fulfillments being contained in the first 5 New Testament history books, thus completing the 2nd cycle, forming a symbolic seal which integrates the 1st cycle with the second, and the Old with the New.

What this tells me more than anything else is that the Bible is a complete set of books. Its purpose, I feel is to show the historical progress of mans perception of God through their myths, customs, and traditions, which ultimately climaxes with Christ’s true revelation of God recorded in the New Testament.
Rose

To me, the bible is a book of revelation. A "how to" book on how we are to experience God and reality as it really is. What you say here is true as far as it goes but "what application it has for us today" is conditional on what we have had revealed to us about God and reality.
A person who is under law sees law no matter what part of the bible he or she is looking at.
Same with a person who has had a revelation of grace.
Our reality is determined by what our mind can accept.

2co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
2co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.
2co 3:16 Nevertheless when it (the heart) shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
2co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.




Looking at the Bible any other way manifests many contradictions and errors, simply because the way God is portrayed in the Old Testament is far different than the way He is presented by Christ in the New Testament, and there is no way these two portrayals can ever be reconciled as both revealing God’s true nature. With this in mind it becomes evident that what the Bible Wheel is presenting to us is a sealed, finished work, recording God’s place in the history of man….all, but the revelation of God through Christ, is the human perspective of God, through their many myths, customs, and traditions. It is this revelation of God through Christ that completes the cycle and manifests the seal, declaring a finished work!
Rose

To recieve the awareness that God is a gracious God is a milestone in our thinking. A tremendous life changing experience.
But it is the beginning of a new journey, not an end to it.
If we keep in mind that change in our awareness and apply it to the next leg of the race we will have to admit that we are still partially blind.
Are we like him yet? Why not?
We are promised that we are growing into the full realisation of sons of God.
That we have the mind of Christ. Are we there yet?
When Jesus talked of Moses, he said that he (Moses) wrote of him.
He said that the law and the prophets prophecied of him.
Jesus did not mention contradictions or errors.
I don't believe there are any. Only apparent contradictions.
This tells me that I am not reading it correctly yet.




As the perception of a child changes with their maturity, they see things in a completely different manner as the eyes of their understanding develop a depth of wisdom, knowing things that were not able to be comprehended until the level of empathic capacity reaches its fullness. Such is the case with the development of mankind’s perception of the Biblical presentation of God; it must mature and develop. This is why the Bible can be used as a true measure, showing where a Believer is at in their stage of development, by the way in which they interpret Scripture.


Exactly my point. We are children learning to walk. But we are children when we are born from above or of the Spirit. It is by the Spirt and the gifts of the Spirit that we are able to comprehend any of this. To pray for understanding and wisdom and to not lean on our own understanding is, I believe, the key.





The Bible contains many types of writings, showing where people of different time-periods were at in relation to their idea of God, through myths, traditions, and customs. It is how we as modern thinkers apply those ideas that is a direct reflection of our level of understanding the purpose of the Bible….not as a book to draw us back into immature ways of thinking, but rather as a window into our past with which to look and see how far we’ve come.

Rose

If you look at the people of various time periods as less intelligent than us then it seems like it is only Time that is the factor in our understanding or lack of it. But way back in the book of Genesis there were people like Abraham and Jacob and Joseph that were experiencing things way beyond people of today. These were and are first hand experiences of the God and Father of Jesus. Even bible scholars of today aren't having those personal experiences. Why not?
If, on the other hand, you view those people and stories as allegorical to our own spiritual growth there is much to learn in those stories.

When Jesus said "follow me" it was a commandment very similar to "Let there be light." In this sense we can also look at it as a promise.
He recieved the Spirit at baptism and immediately was tempted of the devil, came out of the wilderness and first thing he did was to "find himself" in the scriptures.
John also did this. He knew he was the voice of one crying in the wilderness. (Though he did not know he was Elias.)
It is the same with us. If we look at the scriptures as the "Oracles of God" we have to come to the realisation that they are speaking about us,..here and now. Many of the Old Testament prophecies were about us and our relationship and understanding of God. Not just about Jesus coming, but of the consequences of him coming.
With this in mind, we can, as you say, look back to see how far we have come.
But we can also look forward to see how far we have yet to go.

The scriptures were written to us, for us and about us.
If not, then it is just a history book.

To me, the importance of the bible wheel is the laying out of the principles of creation and their meanings. Not only are these principles at work in creation but also within us as His creations. And as verifications of His divine providence. Lamed, He teaches us. Gimel, He gives us gifts, etc.

These things relate directly to the prophecies concerning us as sons of God and fellow heirs with Christ.

Bob

[Silence]

Hello All,
As I read this thread again this morning I began to have thoughts that have been floating around in my mind for a while start to become clear enough that hopefully I can articulate them in a way that is connected to the flow of the conversation.

When the Lord told Adam not to eat of the tree of life, He said "In the day you eat of it, dying you will die." The nachash comes along and says "For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will become like God, knowing good and evil." Could the concept of taking a "short-cut" have been more to blame as a cause of mankind's sufferings throughout history than the fact that Adam and Eve disobeyed God? In other words, could it be that a big part of the lie of the nachash was that they could immediately become like God by eating the fruit of the forbidden tree. I say this because in Genesis 1:26, when God says "Let us make man in our image and likeness, the verb "make" (as-ah) is in the imperfect tense and should really be translated "Let us be making man ....", indicating a process. In v. 27 twice it mentions God "creating" (bar-ah) man in His image (tsel-em), the first time bar-ah is imperfect tense, the second time it is in the perfect tense, but nowhere does v.27 mention man being made in God's "likeness" (dum-ooth) in either an imperfect or perfect tense. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but v.26 does mention both "image" and "likeness", and it seems there must be a reason for that.

I have read a lot of places where people claim that Genesis 3:22 says that man's disobedience resulted in him becoming like God knowing good and evil. I don't know if that is really the case. First off, when it says "Behold the man has become like one of us...", the word 'like' there is not the same as the word "likeness" in Gen 1:26. It is the Hebrew letter 'kaf'
that is used to denote an equivalence of one kind or another. It is also interesting that the kaf in this verse is attached to a number, echad, or 'one' in English. Makes me wonder if man became like a certain 'one' who was also considered part of the group "us". Why doesn't say "Behold man has become like us...". Why insert the number "one"? Man had not become like God, he had become like one (satan) who was also a member of a group called "us" (as a group distinct from mankind).

Genesis 3:22 also may not say that man was successful in his effort to know good and evil. It says man had become like one of us to know good and evil. A lamed is prefixed to the word da-at (know). Could this verse be translated "Behold the man has become like one of us in order to know good and evil"? This verse could be stating that "becoming like one of us" was the motivation for the effort to know good and evil, without addressing the fact of whether this effort was successful or not. Genesis 3:7 says nothing about Adam and Eve knowing good and evil, it just says their eyes were opened to their nakedness. Judging from the responses that Adam and Eve gave when God questioned them about what had happened, it is not too hard to see which "one" of "us" they had become like. Upon being questioned, the first thing they do is accuse (sa-tan)someone else.

People assume that Adam and Eve had enjoyed fellowship with God in the garden before they sinned. The bible does not say that. It does say that man was created to be an imitator (an image of something else) and becoming that "image" would have taken time, even if our progenitors had not eaten from the tree. (the recent discovery of "mirror neurons shows just how much 'imitation' is engrained in our make-up) That disobedience just made the road quite a bit longer and had to be dealt with before the journey could continue. The bible does reflect a progressive revelation, but I would also be careful about judging how far advanced we are and what we can disregard as being for the immature.

[Bob May]

Hello All,
As I read this thread again this morning I began to have thoughts that have been floating around in my mind for a while start to become clear enough that hopefully I can articulate them in a way that is connected to the flow of the conversation.

When the Lord told Adam not to eat of the tree of life, He said "In the day you eat of it, dying you will die." The nachash comes along and says "For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will become like God, knowing good and evil." Could the concept of taking a "short-cut" have been more to blame as a cause of mankind's sufferings throughout history than the fact that Adam and Eve disobeyed God? In other words, could it be that a big part of the lie of the nachash was that they could immediately become like God by eating the fruit of the forbidden tree. I say this because in Genesis 1:26, when God says "Let us make man in our image and likeness, the verb "make" (as-ah) is in the imperfect tense and should really be translated "Let us be making man ....", indicating a process. In v. 27 twice it mentions God "creating" (bar-ah) man in His image (tsel-em), the first time bar-ah is imperfect tense, the second time it is in the perfect tense, but nowhere does v.27 mention man being made in God's "likeness" (dum-ooth) in either an imperfect or perfect tense. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but v.26 does mention both "image" and "likeness", and it seems there must be a reason for that.

I have read a lot of places where people claim that Genesis 3:22 says that man's disobedience resulted in him becoming like God knowing good and evil. I don't know if that is really the case. First off, when it says "Behold the man has become like one of us...", the word 'like' there is not the same as the word "likeness" in Gen 1:26. It is the Hebrew letter 'kaf'
that is used to denote an equivalence of one kind or another. It is also interesting that the kaf in this verse is attached to a number, echad, or 'one' in English. Makes me wonder if man became like a certain 'one' who was also considered part of the group "us". Why doesn't say "Behold man has become like us...". Why insert the number "one"? Man had not become like God, he had become like one (satan) who was also a member of a group called "us" (as a group distinct from mankind).

Genesis 3:22 also may not say that man was successful in his effort to know good and evil. It says man had become like one of us to know good and evil. A lamed is prefixed to the word da-at (know). Could this verse be translated "Behold the man has become like one of us in order to know good and evil"? This verse could be stating that "becoming like one of us" was the motivation for the effort to know good and evil, without addressing the fact of whether this effort was successful or not. Genesis 3:7 says nothing about Adam and Eve knowing good and evil, it just says their eyes were opened to their nakedness. Judging from the responses that Adam and Eve gave when God questioned them about what had happened, it is not too hard to see which "one" of "us" they had become like. Upon being questioned, the first thing they do is accuse (sa-tan)someone else.

People assume that Adam and Eve had enjoyed fellowship with God in the garden before they sinned. The bible does not say that. It does say that man was created to be an imitator (an image of something else) and becoming that "image" would have taken time, even if our progenitors had not eaten from the tree. (the recent discovery of "mirror neurons shows just how much 'imitation' is engrained in our make-up) That disobedience just made the road quite a bit longer and had to be dealt with before the journey could continue. The bible does reflect a progressive revelation, but I would also be careful about judging how far advanced we are and what we can disregard as being for the immature.

What you are proposing is very similar to some Gnostic beliefs. That there was a creator of lesser beings that was in fact a creation himself.
I don't think I accept it as such.
But one thing occurred to me as I was reading your post.
If the "know" in the phrase "know both good and evil" is referring to what many refer to as "biblical knowledge" then we actually become "one with" that which we "know."
Adam and Eve were immediately ashamed. God said Adam where are you?, not because He couldn't find him but to point out that there was a complete change in him.
Just as when we become one with Jesus, it will be in the twinkling of an eye and we shall "be like him."
It was not an apple. It was a way of thinking. It is the law mentality that says we are guilty and there is no way out. Perfection is the standard and we can never reach it by our own efforts.

Ge 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Ge 4:13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

I've seen Cain's response above translated as "My sin is too great to be forgiven."

The next thing he does is to go out from the presence of the Lord.

These are the results of the law mentality. Knowing both good and evil. Guilt and shame and removing ourselves from the presence of the Lord.

Not being able to live in the knowledge of good and evil without sinning, sin brings forth death.
So death is the outcome or "fruit" of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
We become what we eat. We ate death.

Jesus is the tree of life and the antidote. Grace and truth is the fruit and life is the outcome.
We become what we eat.

[CWH]

What you are proposing is very similar to some Gnostic beliefs. That there was a creator of lesser beings that was in fact a creation himself.
I don't think I accept it as such.
But one thing occurred to me as I was reading your post.
If the "know" in the phrase "know both good and evil" is referring to what many refer to as "biblical knowledge" then we actually become "one with" that which we "know."
Adam and Eve were immediately ashamed. God said Adam where are you?, not because He couldn't find him but to point out that there was a complete change in him.
Just as when we become one with Jesus, it will be in the twinkling of an eye and we shall "be like him."
It was not an apple. It was a way of thinking. It is the law mentality that says we are guilty and there is no way out. Perfection is the standard and we can never reach it by our own efforts.

Ge 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Ge 4:13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

I've seen Cain's response above translated as "My sin is too great to be forgiven."

The next thing he does is to go out from the presence of the Lord.

These are the results of the law mentality. Knowing both good and evil. Guilt and shame and removing ourselves from the presence of the Lord.

Not being able to live in the knowledge of good and evil without sinning, sin brings forth death.
So death is the outcome or "fruit" of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
We become what we eat. We ate death.

Jesus is the tree of life and the antidote. Grace and truth is the fruit and life is the outcome.
We become what we eat.

I find it quite interesting about "knowing good and evil". Originally Adam and Eve were created not knowing good and evil. and they felt no shame of their nakedness. It was only when they ate the forbidden fruit then they know good and evil and the shame of their nakedness. How would one describe a person not knowing good and evil?.....naive?....simple-minded?.....innocent? No wonder, they were easily fooled by the serpent. Was God testing their intelligence or characters and to see whether they were skewed towards good or towards evil? If not why put the tree of good and evil in the Garden the first place?

There seems to be some parallels between animals and the original Adam and Eve. I am not saying that the original Adam and Eve behaved like animals except the gift of intelligence but there seems to be some similarities:

1. Do animals know good and evil? I don't think so.
2. Do animals know what is right and wrong? I don't think so.
3. Do animals commit crimes? No.
4. Are animals easily fooled? Yes.
5. Are animals ashamed of their nakedness? No.
6. Do animals marry? No.


Genesis 2:9 The LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.......
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.'...........
25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

Does knowing good and evil means knowing shame of nakedness?...which was how God knew that they have ate the forbidden fruit.

Many Blessings.

[gilgal]

I find it quite interesting about "knowing good and evil". Originally Adam and Eve were created not knowing good and evil. and they felt no shame of their nakedness. It was only when they ate the forbidden fruit then they know good and evil and the shame of their nakedness. How would one describe a person not knowing good and evil?.....naive?....simple-minded?.....innocent? No wonder, they were easily fooled by the serpent. Was God testing their intelligence or characters and to see whether they were skewed towards good or towards evil? If not why put the tree of good and evil in the Garden the first place?

There seems to be some parallels between animals and the original Adam and Eve. I am not saying that the original Adam and Eve behaved like animals except the gift of intelligence but there seems to be some similarities:

1. Do animals know good and evil? I don't think so.
2. Do animals know what is right and wrong? I don't think so.
3. Do animals commit crimes? No.
4. Are animals easily fooled? Yes.
5. Are animals ashamed of their nakedness? No.
6. Do animals marry? No.


The LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.......
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.'...........
25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

Does knowing good and evil means knowing shame of nakedness?...which was how God knew that they have ate the forbidden fruit.

Many Blessings.
Well... animals weren't created in God's image.

[Bob May]

Genesis 2:9 The LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.......
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”...........
25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame. Does knowing good and evil means knowing shame of nakedness?...which was how God knew that they have ate the forbidden fruit.

Yes, knowing both good and evil means knowing the shame of nakedness.
We are all naked in the sight of God. Every secret thought is plain to His sight. Even the thought that "Uh Oh, I have been disobedient."

God gave us the spiritual food of the tree of life. We related to Him by the tree of life in the midst of the Garden. That tree is Christ. This is a way of thinking. The same way Jesus related to the Father. It is a tree that brings life.

Eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is also a way of thinking. It is also a way of relating to God. It is the basis of the law. It brings condemnation, death and shame.

We are either under the law or under grace. There is no in between.

Do you think that God did not know we had eaten of the forbidden fruit before Adam admitted his shame?

Bob

[joel]

The Genesis narrative (Ch 1 - 3) has provided much to think about, and discuss.

Some random thoughts;

1.) Elohim created in Ch. 1. Yahweh Elohim instructed the man in Ch. 2. The serpent referred to Elohim when discussing the instructions with the woman.

2.) All of the trees in the garden were good for food. This would include the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. A difference was that Adam could freely partake of all except the one. Gaining the knowledge of good and evil was to come as a process, over time, and as given by Yahweh Elohim, not in a single moment of partaking.

3.) Yahweh Elohim's instructions to Adam were directed to him, in the singular. The serpent's challenge was to "you" in the plural. It was when Adam ate, not the woman, that they died....as she was part of him.

4.) When Adam ate, they died. "in dying, ye shall die"......the death process began.......things changed, they began to lose their vitality of living. Adam expired (entered death) 930 years later. We have no record of the time that they were in the garden before the fateful event.....as time was not computed until death entered.

Joel

[Silence]

Hello Bob,
I wasn't implying that a created being made Adam and Eve. I was looking at the "us" from the point of view that Michael Heiser teaches. That there is a "divine council" that God rules His creation through. Even though God says "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" it could be in the form of a proposal to the council, but when it comes to carrying out the act He does it Himself.

I can see your point about the two trees being two different ways of thinking and relating to God. And since Adam and Eve knew shame, which is evil, they must have had some knowledge of good and evil. The bible says nothing about the two trees being transplanted out of the garden though, and since man was driven out of the garden, how can we eat from that tree? Was the covenant at Mt. Sinai a "transplanting" of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil out of the garden and into Israel? Judging from what Paul said that seems to be the case. And Jesus, the tree of life was also "transplanted" out of the garden and into Israel.

Also, if relating to God was to be done by eating from either the forbidden tree or the tree of life, then Eve was left out of the loop, since she only seems to have known about one tree in the "midst" of the garden. Genesis 2:9 first mentions the tree of life as being in the midst of the garden, and then adds that the other tree was there also. Eve didn't address the fact that there were actually two trees there. But maybe I'm splitting hairs.

[Bob May]

Hi Silence,


Hello Bob,
I wasn't implying that a created being made Adam and Eve. I was looking at the "us" from the point of view that Michael Heiser teaches. That there is a "divine council" that God rules His creation through. Even though God says "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" it could be in the form of a proposal to the council, but when it comes to carrying out the act He does it Himself..

I see it as the Elohim being architects of the Creator and Father of us all. It is a deep subject and I leave my mind open to
other ideas concerning it.



I can see your point about the two trees being two different ways of thinking and relating to God. And since Adam and Eve knew shame, which is evil, they must have had some knowledge of good and evil. The bible says nothing about the two trees being transplanted out of the garden though, and since man was driven out of the garden, how can we eat from that tree? Was the covenant at Mt. Sinai a "transplanting" of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil out of the garden and into Israel? Judging from what Paul said that seems to be the case. And Jesus, the tree of life was also "transplanted" out of the garden and into Israel..

There is no transplanting. Like any other spiritual reality it is here, now. It is us who have died or fallen asleep to it's existence.
Paul was caught up to Paradise. He did not know whether he was in the body or not.

Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God Did he go antwhere? No, he became aware of something that he was not aware of before. It was a gift of Grace.
Jacob had a dream and saw a ladder that reached from heaven to earth. That ladder was Jesus Christ.
When he awoke he said "Surely the lord is in this place and I knew it not." His name changed to Israel (Favor or Grace with God and man) If he kept that frame of mind he would have known that that statement was true no matter where he was.
But his name changed back to Jacob (the supplanter.)
This is the leaven and this is us. The leaven can be that of the Pharisees or that of the kingdom of heaven.
In either case it permeates our entire way of thinking.




Also, if relating to God was to be done by eating from either the forbidden tree or the tree of life, then Eve was left out of the loop, since she only seems to have known about one tree in the "midst" of the garden. Genesis 2:9 first mentions the tree of life as being in the midst of the garden, and then adds that the other tree was there also. Eve didn't address the fact that there were actually two trees there. But maybe I'm splitting hairs.

I read a book years ago entitled There Were Two Trees in the Garden by Rick Joyner. I just pulled it down off the shelf and will read it again.
Adam is the spirit of man and Eve the soul.
We are tempted through the soul.
We speak about the "Fall" as if it was one event, and maybe it was. But the stages or effects of it are many. Adam falling asleep, Eve being taken out of him, Eve believing a lie and then acting on that belief, disobedience by partaking of the wrong tree, being cast out of the Garden, Cain killing able. These All seem to be part and parcel of it. Many effects that came about from the first cause of God giving us a law and we not believing that it was important to follow.
And now we find ourselves in a cause and effect world that we cannot by our own understanding see our way out of.

Bob

[Bob May]

Hi Joel,


The Genesis narrative (Ch 1 - 3) has provided much to think about, and discuss.

Some random thoughts;

1.) Elohim created in Ch. 1. Yahweh Elohim instructed the man in Ch. 2. The serpent referred to Elohim when discussing the instructions with the woman.

2.) All of the trees in the garden were good for food. This would include the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. A difference was that Adam could freely partake of all except the one. Gaining the knowledge of good and evil was to come as a process, over time, and as given by Yahweh Elohim, not in a single moment of partaking.

3.) Yahweh Elohim's instructions to Adam were directed to him, in the singular. The serpent's challenge was to "you" in the plural. It was when Adam ate, not the woman, that they died....as she was part of him.

4.) When Adam ate, they died. "in dying, ye shall die"......the death process began.......things changed, they began to lose their vitality of living. Adam expired (entered death) 930 years later. We have no record of the time that they were in the garden before the fateful event.....as time was not computed until death entered.

Joel

Adam, Mankind, died. Not began to lose their their vitality.
Having been given coats of skins was fully entering death from God's point of view. We are the dead biblically speaking. We are just not aware of it.
Didn't Jesus tell a man who wanted to follow him to let the dead bury the dead? He was referring to this guy's family. Normal human beings.
We, as normal human beings, consider ourselves alive because we have nothing else to compare it to.
We only begin to come back to life when we are born again.

The serpent, (the Father of Lies) lied and the Father told the truth.

"Gaining the knowledge of good and evil was to come as a process, over time, and as given by Yahweh Elohim, not in a single moment of partaking."

To know something in the Garden is to become one with it as to know your wife is to become one with her.
I don't know if what you said here is true or not. It goes to the question of whether God wanted us to partake or not, questions concerning free will and God leaving us make our own mistakes while still providing a way out.

But it does speak to how we got into this mess and God did provide us a way out. So maybe the whole shooting match was to make us know beyond a shadow of a doubt how bad this way of thinking is and how difficult it is to return.

Bob

[joel]

Bob said;
"Adam, Mankind, died. Not began to lose their their vitality......"

Adam began to die.......dying is a process of dissolution. It is actual, and it is physical.

In Adam all are dying.........the tree of life would sustain the vitality of the physical body. It is not "spiritual"......as if pertaining to the spirit......as some insist. Dying is a physical process. If allowed access to the tree of life, the dying process would continue unceasingly. But now, the dying process lasts 70 - 120 years.

In Adam.....all are dying......the process pertains to all of his descendants, physically.

In Christ, .......all shall be made alive......this is also physical.

Spirit doesn't die. Spiritual death is a man-made, false teaching.

Physical death is what the Bible is speaking of........mortality.

There is nothing in the scripture that describes "the immortal soul" either. Just another false expression that is not "sound".

Joel

[Bob May]

Bob said;
"Adam, Mankind, died. Not began to lose their their vitality......"

Adam began to die.......dying is a process of dissolution. It is actual, and it is physical.

In Adam all are dying.........the tree of life would sustain the vitality of the physical body. It is not "spiritual"......as if pertaining to the spirit......as some insist. Dying is a physical process. If allowed access to the tree of life, the dying process would continue unceasingly. But now, the dying process lasts 70 - 120 years.

In Adam.....all are dying......the process pertains to all of his descendants, physically.

In Christ, .......all shall be made alive......this is also physical.

Spirit doesn't die. Spiritual death is a man-made, false teaching.

Physical death is what the Bible is speaking of........mortality.

There is nothing in the scripture that describes "the immortal soul" either. Just another false expression that is not "sound".

Joel

Hi Joel,

I agree that the soul can die. That is the second death. It can also be saved.
Whether Adam's spirit or soul simply fell asleep or separated from god, I consider it a death.
Jesus referred to physically living people as being dead as I pointed out above.
He also referred to physically dead people as being alive.

Mt 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mt 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Furthermore Paul said we would not be resurrected in physical bodies.

1co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
1co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 1co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of en, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The natural body is the physical body. When it is sown (buried) it will not resurrect as a physical body, but as a spiritual body.
You can believe what you will. That's ok. But as far as I understand it we fell into this physical world/universe and there is nothing in the creation story about the physical until we recieve coats of skins.
Before that we were as the angels in heaven in many respects.

One thing I missed here though. The first Adam was made a living soul...
In revelations it speaks about the second death.
Could it be that the second death (of the soul) is "second" because the "first" death happened in the Garden?
I had never caught that before. If Adam was the soul, then Eve (that which was taken out of Adam) would be the lower emotions.

In Adam all die. It would, as you say, apply on the physical. But the soul is the important thing in my opinion.

We of course are not included in the second Adam who is a quickening spirit until we believe. That word "quickening" means not only living but bringing to life. It seems to be a gradual process. whether because it is a gradual process or we are merely gradually becoming aware of this life working within us, I don't really know.
We are new creatures/creations because of this life giving spirit. No longer of the race of the first Adam which is dead.

So Adam recieved a living soul when God breathed into him/us. Adam blew it and the soul died. He was given coats of skins and banished from the Garden (a spiritual abode or state of mind) to function on this physical plane by the sweat of his brow.

""In Adam.....all are dying......the process pertains to all of his descendants, physically.""

Yes, but also spiritually. Whether you say all die or all are dying what is the difference. Dead is dead. If our contact with the Lord is broken, it is broken and needs to be fixed.

""In Christ, .......all shall be made alive......this is also physical.""

This I would dissagree with. We are physically alive. And we all die physically.

All the best, Bob

[joel]

The natural body is the physical body. When it is sown (buried) it will not resurrect as a physical body, but as a spiritual body.
You can believe what you will. That's ok. But as far as I understand it we fell into this physical world/universe and there is nothing in the creation story about the physical until we recieve coats of skins.
Before that we were as the angels in heaven in many respects.



The natural body is the physical body........the tent in which we currently exist. Paul says that it is a "soilish" body in that it is made of soil, just as Adam's physical body was taken from the earth......it was earthy.

The physical body houses the spirit within us. The spirit is the breath of life given by God so that the physical body could be animated and energized.

When the spirit is joined to the physical body, a living "soul" results which is the conscious expression of life; knowing, acting, expressing.

Paul says that we now reside in a "soulish" body, as well as being a "soilish" as taken from the soil. A "soulish" body is dominated by the "soul". How we feel, how we decide, how we react.........we live in "soilish" bodies, that are also "soulish", being dominated by the soul.

Further, while in this state, we are influenced by the spiritual forces dominating the system in which we are placed, the spirit of this current era, the spirit that works within the children of disobedience.

When we are "saved".........our spirits, which having been subordinate to the soul, are now affected by a new life, one which is characterized as "holy".....as placed within us and joined to us spiritually. We are to walk in "newness of life"........we are to serve God in "newness of spirit".....we are to present our bodies as alive from the dead.

Now, at this present time, we are to have our minds renewed.

While we remain in these tents of flesh, we are no longer to be dominated by the soul. We are to become "spiritual".......and in that state.....we may be led by the Spirit of God......becoming the "sons of God".

We are to anticipate yet another glorious transformation. We are to receive, in His presence, a "spiritual body".......to replace our "soilish" bodies which are linked to the earth.

Our spiritual bodies will be characterized by two things; death will no longer have dominance, and, they will not be dissipating, and deteriorating. Sin will have no place within us to be expressed...........and,......death will be swallowed up in victory.

This, I believe, will affect all of humanity.......not all at once......but in groups, or companies, of which Christ is the firstfruit.

Joel

[Bob May]

The natural body is the physical body........the tent in which we currently exist. Paul says that it is a "soilish" body in that it is made of soil, just as Adam's physical body was taken from the earth......it was earthy.

The physical body houses the spirit within us. The spirit is the breath of life given by God so that the physical body could be animated and energized.

When the spirit is joined to the physical body, a living "soul" results which is the conscious expression of life; knowing, acting, expressing.

Paul says that we now reside in a "soulish" body, as well as being a "soilish" as taken from the soil. A "soulish" body is dominated by the "soul". How we feel, how we decide, how we react.........we live in "soilish" bodies, that are also "soulish", being dominated by the soul.



Further, while in this state, we are influenced by the spiritual forces dominating the system in which we are placed, the spirit of this current era, the spirit that works within the children of disobedience.

When we are "saved".........our spirits, which having been subordinate to the soul, are now affected by a new life, one which is characterized as "holy".....as placed within us and joined to us spiritually. We are to walk in "newness of life"........we are to serve God in "newness of spirit".....we are to present our bodies as alive from the dead.

Now, at this present time, we are to have our minds renewed.

While we remain in these tents of flesh, we are no longer to be dominated by the soul. We are to become "spiritual".......and in that state.....we may be led by the Spirit of God......becoming the "sons of God".

We are to anticipate yet another glorious transformation. We are to receive, in His presence, a "spiritual body".......to replace our "soilish" bodies which are linked to the earth.

Our spiritual bodies will be characterized by two things; death will no longer have dominance, and, they will not be dissipating, and deteriorating. Sin will have no place within us to be expressed...........and,......death will be swallowed up in victory.

This, I believe, will affect all of humanity.......not all at once......but in groups, or companies, of which Christ is the firstfruit.

Joel

Good post Joel,
Can't dissagree with you there except I don't know if it will be all of humanity.

Also, you said, "Now, at this present time, we are to have our minds renewed."

This is the "saving of the soul", I believe. and the "restoring of the soul."
The spirit returns to God from whence it came when the silver cord is loosed, whether we renew the soul or not. A piece or spark of the Spirit of God.


You also said,
"When the spirit is joined to the physical body, a living "soul" results which is the conscious expression of life; knowing, acting, expressing.

Paul says that we now reside in a "soulish" body, as well as being a "soilish" as taken from the soil. A "soulish" body is dominated by the "soul". How we feel, how we decide, how we react.........we live in "soilish" bodies, that are also "soulish", being dominated by the soul.

Further, while in this state, we are influenced by the spiritual forces dominating the system in which we are placed, the spirit of this current era, the spirit that works within the children of disobedience."

This shows us importance of living in the world rather than of the world. And not to be dominated by the "spiritual forces dominating this system." To be led by the Spirit which bears witness with our spirit that we are sons of God.
This when the world is telling us we are not.
Not judging by the appearance of things.

"This, I believe, will affect all of humanity.......not all at once......but in groups, or companies, of which Christ is the firstfruit."

I think any changes/spiritual experiences we go through will come individually. This is the two grinding at the mill, one taken the other left etc.
But I do not think it will be a physical Rapture as taught by many.
Paul was "taken up' but did not dissappear from the face of the earth. It was a spiritual experience that he spoke of later.

All the best,
Bob

[joel]

Bob, I do agree that individual "salvation" during this present state is of great interest, and application.

Individually, we are called......and justified. God actually causes a change within us, by His Spirit.....and.....this change, which I believe has its basis in spirit, is to be communicated within our souls as well. This is where I see the mind being renewed as part of the process of the change within our souls, while we individually, while residing in our individual, soulish bodies.

There is, however, a collective, group reality as well that takes our focus from ourselves, to a focus on others which I believe is facilitated by a realization of the truths of the gospel which are "joint" truths...........truths expressed by Paul that apply to the "body of Christ" made up of many members.

Joel

[Bob May]

Bob, I do agree that individual "salvation" during this present state is of great interest, and application.

Individually, we are called......and justified. God actually causes a change within us, by His Spirit.....and.....this change, which I believe has its basis in spirit, is to be communicated within our souls as well. This is where I see the mind being renewed as part of the process of the change within our souls, while we individually, while residing in our individual, soulish bodies.

There is, however, a collective, group reality as well that takes our focus from ourselves, to a focus on others which I believe is facilitated by a realization of the truths of the gospel which are "joint" truths...........truths expressed by Paul that apply to the "body of Christ" made up of many members.

Joel

Hi Joel,
Here we are back to the original topic of the bible wheel's purpose.
In my mind I see the value of the bible wheel pertaining to the organized principles of God's creation layed out. These principles are both at work in the Grand Creation and within us as little creations.
We can look at ourselves and see whether or not these principles are at work in our lives.

1co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

I believe the joining force is Love or Charity, which seeketh not it's own.
I also believe it is the function or force which holds the church together and we as members of the church to Christ. This would be the principle symbolised by the letter Vav. Joining.
If we recognise this gift growing within ourselves we are strengthened in faith and hope. This is true if we acknowledge it and realise where it comes from.
The same goes for the other gifts.
If we share the recognition of our gifts with others of the church we all are joined and grow in hope and faith.

Years ago I left my church over a dispute concerning the law and grace.
I was pretty much on my own with only a few friends and my wife who held to the grace idea. But there is a promise that I held onto.

Mt 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Never-the-less, I could find no church that held to the grace message. It was all a mixture. And if you add one law to grace it is no more grace.
But I began finding individuals, spread out in both time (writings of people long dead) and space (people I heard on radio for instance) who were seeing the same things I was. This is part of that joining of the body of Christ. It is also a fulfillment of the promise of recieving brothers and sisters one hundred fold, even if you never meet them face to face.

To a person who begins to see that the bible is all about grace, it is a Spiritual experience that was not a state of mind available to them before.
It is a spiritual gift. It is a wisdom and understanding that comes from the Father through Jesus Christ and the Spirit.
We are baptised into the body of Christ. Not the ceremony, the experience.
To acknowledge how the Spirit has worked and is working in our lives is how we grow in Christ.

It begins as an individual experience but it is also a group experience. Different people have different gifts within the body.

Thanks for the reminder. Our focus must be on both. But we should put others before ourselves. Jesus did.

Bob

[kathryn]

Hi Joel,
Here we are back to the original topic of the bible wheel's purpose.
In my mind I see the value of the bible wheel pertaining to the organized principles of God's creation layed out. These principles are both at work in the Grand Creation and within us as little creations.
We can look at ourselves and see whether or not these principles are at work in our lives.

1co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

I believe the joining force is Love or Charity, which seeketh not it's own.
I also believe it is the function or force which holds the church together and we as members of the church to Christ. This would be the principle symbolised by the letter Vav. Joining.
If we recognise this gift growing within ourselves we are strengthened in faith and hope. This is true if we acknowledge it and realise where it comes from.
The same goes for the other gifts.
If we share the recognition of our gifts with others of the church we all are joined and grow in hope and faith.

Years ago I left my church over a dispute concerning the law and grace.
I was pretty much on my own with only a few friends and my wife who held to the grace idea. But there is a promise that I held onto.

Mt 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Never-the-less, I could find no church that held to the grace message. It was all a mixture. And if you add one law to grace it is no more grace.
But I began finding individuals, spread out in both time (writings of people long dead) and space (people I heard on radio for instance) who were seeing the same things I was. This is part of that joining of the body of Christ. It is also a fulfillment of the promise of recieving brothers and sisters one hundred fold, even if you never meet them face to face.

To a person who begins to see that the bible is all about grace, it is a Spiritual experience that was not a state of mind available to them before.
It is a spiritual gift. It is a wisdom and understanding that comes from the Father through Jesus Christ and the Spirit.
We are baptised into the body of Christ. Not the ceremony, the experience.
To acknowledge how the Spirit has worked and is working in our lives is how we grow in Christ.

It begins as an individual experience but it is also a group experience. Different people have different gifts within the body.

Thanks for the reminder. Our focus must be on both. But we should put others before ourselves. Jesus did.

Bob

Hi Bob...I have been meaning to get back to a few of your posts from last week, but time has been limited lately. Regarding your comments on Law and Grace...It is my understanding that the two are consummated.
In the renewal of the mind, scripture speaks of a two step process where-by the Law is placed in the mind, and then written on the heart. It(the Law) isn't done away with. I don't believe we've had that process completed in us yet, which is why we still have so much confusion in the church regarding law/grace.

[kathryn]

I just wanted to add that I've had to stay away from "mixture" in the church for several years as well . It would seem that this is the case for many in the Body. I do believe as we undergo this growth process individually, it has a corresponding effect on the whole. Your progress through the Baptism of Fire is effecting mine at some level and vice versa. I have a pet theory that the Body of Christ is holographic in nature. If we could truly grasp how connected we are to one another, and how each little victory and step of growth we make, effects the whole, I think there would be an almost over-night change on earth.
Hmm...I wonder if the Bible Wheel holds some clues to Quantum Physics?

[Bob May]

I just wanted to add that I've had to stay away from "mixture" in the church for several years as well . It would seem that this is the case for many in the Body. I do believe as we undergo this growth process individually, it has a corresponding effect on the whole. Your progress through the Baptism of Fire is effecting mine at some level and vice versa. I have a pet theory that the Body of Christ is holographic in nature. If we could truly grasp how connected we are to one another, and how each little victory and step of growth we make, effects the whole, I think there would be an almost over-night change on earth.
Hmm...I wonder if the Bible Wheel holds some clues to Quantum Physics?

Hi Kathryn,
I heard or read somewhere that Newton thought that force of Gravity was akin to Love.

I see somewhat of an analogy between the realisation of being under the law to being under grace to the realisation of the change in approach needed in order to understand the relationship between newtonian physics and the relatively new discoveries in quantum physics.

I didn't word that very well.
But in both cases it is a situation in which things don't work as they used to,.. as expected.
We are under a new law. The perfect law of liberty.
This law has been in effect since the cross, or at least available since then, working in the background.
Those that do not accept grace as the way to God do not see it.

A subatomic particle can appear out of "nowhere.".. Jesus appeared in a locked room to the disciples.

The same particle can be in two places at once... Philip baptised the eunuch and was immeditately found elsewhere.
Ac 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Ac 8:40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Expectations can affect experiments.
Mr 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

There are probably many more parallels. This is why I tend to think that this world we live in is not "illusion" as taught by many seers of other faiths, but Allegorical in nature.

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

So, the "change over" from newtonian physics, cause and effect, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, etc. to quantum physics, is analogous to the "change over" from the law to grace.

In the first instance our understanding of our relationship to the world around us is changed.
In the second our understanding of our relationship to God is changed.

To take it further, I believe that the letters of the Hebrew alphabet are more than symbols. They are the forces and functions of creation. They are, in a word, actual living beings both aware and purposeful. Angels.
As such we should be able to, (and probably already are) witness their working in the physical and quantum and within ourselves without knowing it.
It would be a interesting study.
And it actually is a very important aspect to the bible wheel study which is what this thread is about.

Good hearing from you Kathryn,
Bob

[kathryn]

Hi Kathryn,
I heard or read somewhere that Newton thought that force of Gravity was akin to Love.

I see somewhat of an analogy between the realisation of being under the law to being under grace to the realisation of the change in approach needed in order to understand the relationship between newtonian physics and the relatively new discoveries in quantum physics.

I didn't word that very well.
But in both cases it is a situation in which things don't work as they used to,.. as expected.
We are under a new law. The perfect law of liberty.
This law has been in effect since the cross, or at least available since then, working in the background.
Those that do not accept grace as the way to God do not see it.

A subatomic particle can appear out of "nowhere.".. Jesus appeared in a locked room to the disciples.

The same particle can be in two places at once... Philip baptised the eunuch and was immeditately found elsewhere.
Ac 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Ac 8:40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Expectations can affect experiments.
Mr 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

There are probably many more parallels. This is why I tend to think that this world we live in is not "illusion" as taught by many seers of other faiths, but Allegorical in nature.

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

So, the "change over" from newtonian physics, cause and effect, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, etc. to quantum physics, is analogous to the "change over" from the law to grace.

In the first instance our understanding of our relationship to the world around us is changed.
In the second our understanding of our relationship to God is changed.

To take it further, I believe that the letters of the Hebrew alphabet are more than symbols. They are the forces and functions of creation. They are, in a word, actual living beings both aware and purposeful. Angels.
As such we should be able to, (and probably already are) witness their working in the physical and quantum and within ourselves without knowing it.
It would be a interesting study.
And it actually is a very important aspect to the bible wheel study which is what this thread is about.

Good hearing from you Kathryn,
Bob

Wonderful stuff Bob! I agree with all you say and excited to discover more as I know you are.
I don't know if you have read the other thread about the leaven in the bread....but as I was reading this post of yours, it dawned on me that the bible itself..as the "bread", expresses both the Newtonian and the Quantum. Jesus was the UNleavened bread made flesh. The bible written by man...is the leavened bread(inspired by God, but leavened, nevertheless, symbolized by the two loaves of leavened bread in the Pentecostal offering, that had to be PLACED IN THE FIRE, to stop the work of the leaven.
Jesus fulfilled the Wave Sheaf offering as the Unleavened bread...the Lamb without sin...but when we come to the Feast of Pentecost , the leaven is put back in the loaves. This is when things go quantum:-)
Romans 8:20 says that the creation was subjected to vanity (perverseness, depravity) in order that the creature/creation be "delivered from the bondage into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Could our bible have been the irritant in the oyster all along?

[kathryn]

If you study what Richard has written about spoke 3 , it seems to confirm the Bible Wheel as a picture of the word/bread/bible revealed in "fire".
http://www.biblewheel.com/wheel/spokes/Gimel_fire.asp

[Bob May]

Wonderful stuff Bob! I agree with all you say and excited to discover more as I know you are.
I don't know if you have read the other thread about the leaven in the bread....but as I was reading this post of yours, it dawned on me that the bible itself..as the "bread", expresses both the Newtonian and the Quantum. Jesus was the UNleavened bread made flesh. The bible written by man...is the leavened bread, symbolized by the two loaves of leavened bread in the Pentecostal offering, that had to be PLACED IN THE FIRE, to stop the work of the leaven.
Jesus fulfilled the Wave Sheaf offering as the Unleavened bread...the Lamb without sin...but when we come to the Feast of Pentecost , the leaven is put back in the loaves. This is when things go quantum:-)
Romans 8:20 says that the creation was subjected to vanity (perverseness, depravity) in order that the creature/creation be "delivered from the bondage into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Could our bible have been the irritant in the oyster all along?

Hi Kathryn,
The leaven is used as both a positive and negative in scripture.
Jesus cautioned his disciples to beware of the leaven of the pharisees, which was hypocracy.
But he also likened leaven to the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

It seems to point to something that just a small amount takes over the whole person, body soul and spirit. It possibly also points to baptism or cleansing too. Why three measures?
As I pointed out before the number 14 seemed to point to this regeneration process from Abraham to Christ. The geneology broken into three segments of 14.
You pointed out spoke 3 which has 14 instances of the words "holy" and "fire"

3x14=42

Not too long ago you spoke about the word "midst" as being important.
In the book of revelation the "man of sin" is revealed in the "midst of the week."
This "midst of the week" is 42 months or 3 1/2 years. Other places this Principle is mentioned as a time, times, and half a time.
I am not speaking of time here, but of the Principle related to those numbers.
Week means seven, but it also means Covenant.
So the "heart" or "midst" of the covenant has to do with revealing,..."As a man thinketh in his heart so is he."
So, God not only reveals to us what is within us but He also cleanses us. We cannot.


1co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you

What I see here is the process whereby the sin within us is revealed by fire so that we may see where we are still coming short of living fully by God's Spirit.
We can fool ourselves about walking after the Spirit.
But we cannot fool the fire.

It seems to be the aspect of Spirit that reveals and cleanses us of the spirit of man which is hidden within us. Only then do we become aware beyond what we are normally aware of concerning the spirit of man which is still residing within us.
The midst of the week the midst (heart) of the covenant and the midst (heart) of ourselves.

""Jesus fulfilled the Wave Sheaf offering as the Unleavened bread...the Lamb without sin...but when we come to the Feast of Pentecost , the leaven is put back in the loaves. This is when things go quantum:-)""

And maybe that is the leaven of the Kingdom of Heaven rather than the leaven of the kingdom of hypocrisy. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
So we replace the old leaven with the new and then the fire begins? 42 also has to do with spiritual nourishment. "Restoring our soul" or relearning, maybe.

Re 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The book of Revelation has about 26 instances of fire and burning if I remember correctly.

Bob

[kathryn]

Hi Kathryn,
The leaven is used as both a positive and negative in scripture.
Jesus cautioned his disciples to beware of the leaven of the pharisees, which was hypocracy.
But he also likened leaven to the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

It seems to point to something that just a small amount takes over the whole person, body soul and spirit. It possibly also points to baptism or cleansing too. Why three measures?
As I pointed out before the number 14 seemed to point to this regeneration process from Abraham to Christ. The geneology broken into three segments of 14.
You pointed out spoke 3 which has 14 instances of the words "holy" and "fire"

3x14=42

Not too long ago you spoke about the word "midst" as being important.
In the book of revelation the "man of sin" is revealed in the "midst of the week."
This "midst of the week" is 42 months or 3 1/2 years. Other places this Principle is mentioned as a time, times, and half a time.
I am not speaking of time here, but of the Principle related to those numbers.
Week means seven, but it also means Covenant.
So the "heart" or "midst" of the covenant has to do with revealing,..."As a man thinketh in his heart so is he."
So, God not only reveals to us what is within us but He also cleanses us. We cannot.


1co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you

What I see here is the process whereby the sin within us is revealed by fire so that we may see where we are still coming short of living fully by God's Spirit.
We can fool ourselves about walking after the Spirit.
But we cannot fool the fire.

It seems to be the aspect of Spirit that reveals and cleanses us of the spirit of man which is hidden within us. Only then do we become aware beyond what we are normally aware of concerning the spirit of man which is still residing within us.
The midst of the week the midst (heart) of the covenant and the midst (heart) of ourselves.

""Jesus fulfilled the Wave Sheaf offering as the Unleavened bread...the Lamb without sin...but when we come to the Feast of Pentecost , the leaven is put back in the loaves. This is when things go quantum:-)""

And maybe that is the leaven of the Kingdom of Heaven rather than the leaven of the kingdom of hypocrisy. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
So we replace the old leaven with the new and then the fire begins? 42 also has to do with spiritual nourishment. "Restoring our soul" or relearning, maybe.

Re 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The book of Revelation has about 26 instances of fire and burning if I remember correctly.

Bob

Hi Bob...you've brought up many important subjects here that I don't want to lose track of. I just have a moment to respond , so I'll just comment on a couple.
This aspect of the "man of sin" revealed in the "midst" of the week, is a fascinating one. As you mentioned, week is also covenant. As you remember, in the cutting of the covenant, one animal was cut in half , with a smoking firepot and a blazing torch passed between "midst" of the pieces. If you examine the typology of the temple , the altar (heart), the staves, the pipes of the candlestick, etc. were all to be hollow. I don't have time to do this justice right now...but I believe if you study this out, you'll discover that there is a "holy highway" that is forged in and through us, which first reveals "the man of sin" (the old man/Adam) in our "midst". Once our midst has been hollowed out/purified by the fire...the 2nd Adam appears. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, you will note, begins when John sees him in the "midst" of the candlesticks.
The midst, as you say, is definately the heart...but it is also of the mind. It where our circumcized heart consummates with the mind (womb)... in the midst of the "garden". ( And...back to one of your earlier posts...it is the "second heaven" or "air" but I won't go there now:-)
Gotta run...I'm sure enjoying our conversation!

[Bob May]

The midst, as you say, is definately the heart...but it is also of the mind. It where our circumcized heart consummates with the mind (womb)... in the midst of the "garden". ( And...back to one of your earlier posts...it is the "second heaven" or "air" but I won't go there now:-)
Gotta run...I'm sure enjoying our conversation!

Hi Kathryn,
You are correct about the heart being the mind.
Much of what motivates us has to do with "triggers."
When we feel emotions such as anger, lust, embarrasment, frustration and the fight/flight urges, we feel in the solar plexus.
This is said to be the seat of the subconscious mind.
Many times when we feel emotions what we are feeling is the body. Memory plays a big part in this and can trigger these feelings which we automatically interpret as emotions.
This, I believe is what is meant by the heart in the bible rather than the actual organ which is called the heart.
A physical organ cannot be evil but a way of thinking can be.

Pr 21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts

Ac 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Ac 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Ac 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Ac 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

The idea of hollow tubes fits well with the idea of the Bride of Christ coming down out of heaven one stone clear as crystal.

Pr 17:3 The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts

Again the idea of a purifying fire here. Putting that together with "purifying the hearts by faith" and we find that it is not us doing it but God. Because faith is not of ourselves.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It is like we are nothing more than empty vessels waiting to be filled.

Bob

[kathryn]

Hi Kathryn,
You are correct about the heart being the mind.
Much of what motivates us has to do with "triggers."
When we feel emotions such as anger, lust, embarrasment, frustration and the fight/flight urges, we feel in the solar plexus.
This is said to be the seat of the subconscious mind.
Many times when we feel emotions what we are feeling is the body. Memory plays a big part in this and can trigger these feelings which we automatically interpret as emotions.
This, I believe is what is meant by the heart in the bible rather than the actual organ which is called the heart.
A physical organ cannot be evil but a way of thinking can be.

Pr 21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts

Ac 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Ac 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Ac 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Ac 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

The idea of hollow tubes fits well with the idea of the Bride of Christ coming down out of heaven one stone clear as crystal.

Pr 17:3 The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts

Again the idea of a purifying fire here. Putting that together with "purifying the hearts by faith" and we find that it is not us doing it but God. Because faith is not of ourselves.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It is like we are nothing more than empty vessels waiting to be filled.

Bob
Hi Bob...Ever since Richard and Rose began to hold the written Bible/word under a microscope, revealing all of its inconsistencies and hidden horrors, I've had a tension in me between what I know in and through the Spirit in my heart and the logic of my mind. Thankfully, I have been able to see much of it allegorically as you have...but the tension was still there. It wasn't until I read one of your posts a few days ago, that I think I had some deeper understanding on the perfection of the Biblewheel vs the imperfection of the written Bible. In reading your response last night, I believe I saw another analogy. You said:

This, I believe is what is meant by the heart in the bible rather than the actual organ which is called the heart.
A physical organ cannot be evil but a way of thinking can be. And...the fining pot is for silver.

When I first saw this "hollow" concept...it was as us being fashioned into a hollow vessel, such as a cup. Your reference to the heart being an organ made me think of an instrument...an actual organ. Most instruments are hollow in some aspect aren't they?

I was reminded then, of the only instance, that I know of in the Bible, where an instrument(s) was made...and that was the TWO trumpets made from ONE piece of "beaten" silver. Could we have another picture here of the Biblewheel, which shows the intricate precision and perfection in which the Word of God was put together (ie: Jesus the Word made Flesh..without sin/unleavened bread) vs. the written , imperfect but leavened bread/ Bible/word...which must go through a purifying process in our hearts/mind..before it can be understood and heard and harmonize with His Spirit?

Surely it can also be said of us,as it is the written word/Bible.... that we are "inspired of God" and magnificently put together...but we are NOT the Word made flesh, until we have completely consumed the blood and flesh of Jesus Christ and in turn,He has, through the Baptism of Fire completely consumed us.

It would appear that it was given to Richard and Rose to show us the perfect organ or instrument we become, through the discovery of the Biblewheel...and ALSO to play the role of the "baker" by placing the leavened bread in the fire :lol:
Thanks Bob. You are an inspiration.

Ps..and as always, thanks to Richard and Rose for keeping the "heat" turned up. God Himself abhors a "mixture" and while the fire may seem it's consuming our foundation at first...there is nothing worth saving that can't be taken into it.

[kathryn]

hmmm...wasn't Joseph imprisoned with both the butler and baker for a time?:D

[Rose]

Hi Bob...Ever since Richard and Rose began to hold the written Bible/word under a microscope, revealing all of its inconsistencies and hidden horrors, I've had a tension in me between what I know in and through the Spirit in my heart and the logic of my mind. Thankfully, I have been able to see much of it allegorically as you have...but the tension was still there. It wasn't until I read one of your posts a few days ago, that I think I had some deeper understanding on the perfection of the Biblewheel vs the imperfection of the written Bible. In reading your response last night, I believe I saw another analogy. You said:

This, I believe is what is meant by the heart in the bible rather than the actual organ which is called the heart.
A physical organ cannot be evil but a way of thinking can be. And...the fining pot is for silver.

When I first saw this "hollow" concept...it was as us being fashioned into a hollow vessel, such as a cup. Your reference to the heart being an organ made me think of an instrument...an actual organ. Most instruments are hollow in some aspect aren't they?

I was reminded then, of the only instance, that I know of in the Bible, where an instrument(s) was made...and that was the TWO trumpets made from ONE piece of "beaten" silver. Could we have another picture here of the Biblewheel, which shows the intricate precision and perfection in which the Word of God was put together (ie: Jesus the Word made Flesh..without sin/unleavened bread) vs. the written , imperfect but leavened bread/ Bible/word...which must go through a purifying process in our hearts/mind..before it can be understood and heard and harmonize with His Spirit?

Surely it can also be said of us,as it is the written word/Bible.... that we are "inspired of God" and magnificently put together...but we are NOT the Word made flesh, until we have completely consumed the blood and flesh of Jesus Christ and in turn,He has, through the Baptism of Fire completely consumed us.

It would appear that it was given to Richard and Rose to show us the perfect organ or instrument we become, through the discovery of the Biblewheel...and ALSO to play the role of the "baker" by placing the leavened bread in the fire :lol:
Thanks Bob. You are an inspiration.

Ps..and as always, thanks to Richard and Rose for keeping the "heat" turned up. God Himself abhors a "mixture" and while the fire may seem it's consuming our foundation at first...there is nothing worth saving that can't be taken into it.

Hi Kathryn,

That statement says it all! If any part Bible cannot stand up to the test of the fire of truth then it is not worth saving! All the parts of the Bible that are crumbling through exposure are areas that have bothered me from the beginning, and I chose to ignore them till I could do so no longer.

I now feel such a sense of freedom and peace in letting go of all the falsehoods without having to justify them. In the end the Bible Wheel will still remain, but it will be transformed.

All the Best,
Rose

[Bob May]

Hi Bob...you've brought up many important subjects here that I don't want to lose track of. I just have a moment to respond , so I'll just comment on a couple.
This aspect of the "man of sin" revealed in the "midst" of the week, is a fascinating one. As you mentioned, week is also covenant. As you remember, in the cutting of the covenant, one animal was cut in half , with a smoking firepot and a blazing torch passed between "midst" of the pieces. If you examine the typology of the temple , the altar (heart), the staves, the pipes of the candlestick, etc. were all to be hollow. I don't have time to do this justice right now...but I believe if you study this out, you'll discover that there is a "holy highway" that is forged in and through us, which first reveals "the man of sin" (the old man/Adam) in our "midst". Once our midst has been hollowed out/purified by the fire...the 2nd Adam appears. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, you will note, begins when John sees him in the "midst" of the candlesticks.
The midst, as you say, is definately the heart...but it is also of the mind. It where our circumcized heart consummates with the mind (womb)... in the midst of the "garden". ( And...back to one of your earlier posts...it is the "second heaven" or "air" but I won't go there now:-)
Gotta run...I'm sure enjoying our conversation!

Hi Kathryn and Rose,
You mentioned the organ and hollow tubes. In the bible the organ is actually refering to bagpipes. I used to make Irish bagpipes and still occasionally do. I have also made some Native American flutes. One method of making the tubes hollow is to use a red hot poker and remove the middle pulp of Cane which is a very thick hard reed similar to Bamboo.
A hollow tube with holes shortens the vibrating length of the tube and raises the pitch of a sound introduced to the tube. The smoothness of the bore dictates the sound produced.
Unless the bore of the pipe is of the perfect shape and smoothness it will not work properly.
But there has to be a sound Generator. In flutes it is a whistle.
In bagpipes it is a vibrating reed or double reed similar to an oboe.

These facts lead me to think there is more than meets the ear when Jesus said of John the Baptist, "What went you out for to see? A reed shaken in the wind?"
John was the voice of God announcing the coming of Jesus. An instrument a hollow tube and a reed vibrated by the Spirit. Gabriel was also an announcer of God and carried an instrument, a horn.
Jesus said that his words and the works he did all came from the Father. He was not doing his will but the Father's. Again the idea of a conduit and an amplifier.
Just some things to thing about.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Kathryn,

That statement says it all! If any part Bible cannot stand up to the test of the fire of truth then it is not worth saving! All the parts of the Bible that are crumbling through exposure are areas that have bothered me from the beginning, and I chose to ignore them till I could do so no longer.

I now feel such a sense of freedom and peace in letting go of all the falsehoods without having to justify them. In the end the Bible Wheel will still remain, but it will be transformed.

All the Best,
Rose
That's great Rose! I feel exactly the same way. Here's a verse for you:

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
Every man's work? That includes the men who put together the Bible. Their work must be tested by the very standard declared within its pages.

[gilgal]

That's great Rose! I feel exactly the same way. Here's a verse for you:

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
Every man's work? That includes the men who put together the Bible. Their work must be tested by the very standard declared within its pages.
When did they put the New Testament together?

[kathryn]

Hi Kathryn and Rose,
You mentioned the organ and hollow tubes. In the bible the organ is actually refering to bagpipes. I used to make Irish bagpipes and still occasionally do. I have also made some Native American flutes. One method of making the tubes hollow is to use a red hot poker and remove the middle pulp of Cane which is a very thick hard reed similar to Bamboo.
A hollow tube with holes shortens the vibrating length of the tube and raises the pitch of a sound introduced to the tube. The smoothness of the bore dictates the sound produced.
Unless the bore of the pipe is of the perfect shape and smoothness it will not work properly.
But there has to be a sound Generator. In flutes it is a whistle.
In bagpipes it is a vibrating reed or double reed similar to an oboe.

These facts lead me to think there is more than meets the ear when Jesus said of John the Baptist, "What went you out for to see? A reed shaken in the wind?"
John was the voice of God announcing the coming of Jesus. An instrument a hollow tube and a reed vibrated by the Spirit. Gabriel was also an announcer of God and carried an instrument, a horn.
Jesus said that his words and the works he did all came from the Father. He was not doing his will but the Father's. Again the idea of a conduit and an amplifier.
Just some things to thing about.

Hi Bob...that's a wonderful illustration! I too have wondered about the reed in the wind. It fits perfectly doesn't it?
I had no idea that the pipes were bag pipes. I would think the bag would be made of skin? Doesn't that open an interesting comparison with the Tabernacle in the wilderness? Thanks Bob!

[kathryn]

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
Every man's work? That includes the men who put together the Bible. Their work must be tested by the very standard declared within its pages.
__________________
.:thumb::thumb::thumb:

I find it interesting, that in the book of Romans 1:20, it says that "since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities...his eternal power and divine nature..have been clearly seen , being understood from what has been made.
In other words, man did not need to be inspired to write the bible, for us to know God. So...why worry about the fire?

[Rose]

Even though I have come to the point in my journey of discovery where I have no doubt the Bible it totally the work of human hands and ideas, there still remains the mystery of the Bible Wheel - it’s seemingly supernatural pattern stands as unshakable as ever. 'How did it get there and why?' is the question that continues to haunt my mind?

It seems that when the animal mind reached a large enough capacity for self consciousness to arise, it enabled the human consciousness to connect back to its source which I will call the 'Collective Cosmic Consciousness', or the Ground of all Being. The glimpse of the Collective Cosmic Consciousness we humans get is manifested through archetypes which are innate in every human being. This archetypal framework common to us all is shaped and colored by each individual, thus creating our own clothed mental image. Throughout the course of history people have given identities to these archetypes as their source of being. In the biblical narrative we can see the creator archetype taking the form of a single male deity clothed in the image of a warrior; this differed from the former plural deities, and goddess deities of earlier cultures.

The primary ways people connect to the Collective Cosmic Consciousness (of which we are a part) while living in these mortal bodies is through dreams, visions, intuitions and meditations. This is the way the Collective Cosmic Consciousness can interact with humans to guide and impart knowledge.

My journey to discover the true origins of the Bible has lead me to the conclusion that it is no more than an anthology of what men perceived to be the deity who created the world and the laws that the deity imposed upon mankind. Many words of wisdom and truths are contained within this work of the human experience of the divine. For example the teachings of Jesus promoting equality of women and men, Jew and Gentile, rich and poor are for the most part revolutionary for the time period he lived in.

When Jesus appeared in that pivotal point of history as a teacher, he was a man 'out of time' because his ideas were advanced well beyond the views of the male dominated society then prevalent. His ideas of loving others as you love yourself, treating women as equals, and universal acceptance went far beyond what most men believed to be true…especially those of his own race, whose religion taught that they were the exclusive benefactors of God’s blessings and grace.

We can see that Jesus came at a pivotal point in human history and pulled together in one place ideas not only from the Old Testament, but also from many previous great thinkers such as, Socrates, Confucius, Buddha, and Philo of Alexandria to name just a few. The message of Jesus was universal love and equality for all humans no matter what the race or gender. His ideas of oneness, and unity were the closest up to that point of the true archetypal framework of the Collective Cosmic Consciousness. Since Jesus was a man born of Jewish roots his ideas were mapped onto the foundation of the Old Covenant System, so from within that structure he tried to transform their ideas of a god who required sacrifice by identifying himself as god/man and giving his life for that required sacrifice. Jesus drew many of his ideas from his connection to the Collective Cosmic Consciousness, but when his teachings were interpreted by others such as Paul their true meaning became clothed in many of the male traditions, and customs of the time, thus losing some of the advanced ideas on universal love and equality. Even though Paul taught there was no male or female, Jew or Gentile many of his words spoke just the opposite, condemning women to a life of subjectivity to men. Even after the New Testament was complete, there were still many more interpretive changes to the original teaching of Jesus that came about by the early church fathers, which ended up obscuring the message of universal love and equality and promoting a message of intolerance and inequality.

Considering the course that the sharing of the message of the Gospel has taken through the last two millennia, it almost seems like a hopeless cause to ever be able to redeem the teachings of Jesus, which are love and equality from the pages of the Bible; but I think it is possible with the help of the Bible Wheel. Again, at a pivotal point in history – the ending of the 20th century and the beginning of the 21st century - the emergence of this simulacrum could salvage the message of love and equality obscured in the pages of a book known as the Word of God.

The Bible Wheel reveals the framework of the Bible, out of which emerged Jesus’ idea of universal love and equality; born from the materials of the old, but having wholly new message of grace. Men who are so set in their patriarchal, dominator ways - beginning with the Epistles of Paul - took the teachings of Jesus and imposed upon them their own 'dominator' male customs and interpretations, many times obscuring the essence of the message.

The way the manifestation of the Bible Wheel may be able to salvage the message of Jesus is by its exemplification of him….by this I mean that the symbol that emerges from its structure proclaims Jesus. The Tri-Radiant is the penultimate symbol of Jesus that manifests itself as a result of 'rolling up the Bible' into the Bible Wheel, revealing his message of love and equality as its final proclamation. When the Bible is viewed in this manner its culminating message of love, and equality exemplified by Jesus takes precedence over the underlying primitive ideas of the Old Covenant sacrificial system governed by the Hebrew war god Yahweh.

Now back to the original question of, 'How did the supernatural pattern of the Bible Wheel happen?' At this point in my journey the closest I can come to answering that question is to refer back to the idea I presented in the opening part of this article, which is the concept of a Collective Cosmic Consciousness which we are a part of and interact with by intuitions, dreams, visions, and meditations. These interactions give us glimpses into another realm and impart knowledge that helps to guide the progress of our human walk. In this manner I propose that all the human hands that had a part in the formation of what we now call the Protestant Cannon - made up of 66 books - were guided to construct a composite whole that rises above the bloody foundation of its roots and radiates a symbol which overshadows the bad with the essential teachings of Jesus...love and equality.

The Bible can now be redeemed without condoning or justifying the abominations which it contains, for they are merely a part of the history of mankind struggling to understand the divine by constructing a deity to fit their misconceptions. The deity of the Bible just happens to be a male war god, which is the heritage that Jesus inherited by being born a Jew, but that does not lessen validity of his universal message. Given the wide circulation of the Bible what better medium to covey this truth – that the only way mankind will ever reach a unity of the whole is by sharing a common unity of love and equality for all.


Rose

[kathryn]

Rose: Now back to the original question of, “How did the supernatural pattern of the Bible Wheel happen?” At this point in my journey the closest I can come to answering that question is to refer back to the idea I presented in the opening part of this article, which is the concept of a Collective Cosmic Consciousness which we are a part of and interact with by intuitions, dreams, visions, and meditations. These interactions give us glimpses into another realm and impart knowledge that helps to guide the progress of our human walk. In this manner I propose that all the human hands that had a part in the formation of what we now call the Protestant Cannon - made up of 66 books - were guided to construct a composite whole that rises above the bloody foundation of its roots and radiates a symbol which overshadows the bad with the essential teachings of Jesus...love and equality.


Hi Rose...I am beginning to understand in a deeper way too, that the corruption that is in the written word, has been used in some mysterious way, in the refining process. The leaven seems to have been purposely put in the dough. How amazing is it, that all Richard did, was take the 66 books of the written word, like a slab of dough, and rolled it. Not only is the concept of rolling within the gematria of the language in the 66 , but so is the consuming of the fire ! Richard seems to have literally put the leavened (sin filled) bread in the fire and pulled out the purified loaf!
It absolutely boggles the mind!

[kathryn]

A few days ago Duxrow made an interesting observation on another thread, on the Kingdom of God being compared to the leaven hidden in the dough, divided into three measures. He compared three measures to the ripening process or growth of the Kingdom over the 3 kosmos periods of time.

I am convinced we have a genuine analogy of the Bible Wheel as the two loaves (OT and NT of the LEAVENED written word) which has been "rolled" out and placed in the purification of the oven or fire.
I was astounded tonight, to find a very clear type and shadow of this process in Genesis chapter 40.

We see Joseph , who is a type of Jesus in His corporate son/body...going through the purification process in prison . Interestingly, he is ALSO imprisoned with Pharoh's butler (cupbearer/water/wine) and BAKER (which also means "bakemeats").

With the three pieces of leavened dough in mind, have a look at his dream:

Gen 40:17 And in the uppermost basket (there are 3!) there was of all manner of bakemeats for Pharaoh; and the birds did eat them out of the basket upon my head.

The "fouls of the air" are a type of the carnal mindsets of man that steal the seed/meat of the word. ( the fouls of the air, of which Adam LOST dominion of making him subject to the vanity of his mind

Joseph's interpretation is that the 3 baskets are 3 days!(3 kosmos) Now...look at what happens!:

Gen 40:20 And it came to pass the third day, which was Pharaoh's birthday, that he made a feast unto all his servants: and he lifted up the head of the chief butler and of the chief baker among his servants.
Gen 40:21 And he restored the chief butler unto his butlership again; and he gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand:
Gen 40:22 But he hanged the chief baker: as Joseph had interpreted to them.

The "feast" occurs when HEAD of the Butler/cupbearer(water) and of the chief baker(also bakemeats) are "lifted up". (nasa)
In other words...there is a lifting up or revealing of both the "head" of the Butler/Cupbearer of water/wine and the "head" (or rosh) of the Baker/bakemeats (which the fouls of the air have have consumed).
In the "lifting up" of both, a SEPARATION occurs between the two. The baker is HANGED! The servants now have a FEAST!!!!

The CUP (the purified, hollowed out vessel we become) is then placed in Pharaoh's (the Father) hand.

Why was the Baker hanged? In Levitical Law, a firstborn donkey had to be redeemed by a Lamb. If a Lamb wasn't available to sacrifice on its behalf, it had to have its neck broken. Of course the donkey is a picture of the Bride in the purification process, who like Joseph, is imprisoned with both the Cupbearer(Holy Spirit bearing the Water of the Word) or Butler and the Baker in the "Oven". A donkey is a "mixture" and most often sterile and therefore considered "unclean". The Baker is also the Bride who willingly takes the Word/Christ in her, into the fire or purification process. (Rom. 12:1..She consents to become a LIVING sacrifice)
Like the donkey...the baker's "head" must be separated from the body, in order for the true Head (the Lamb) to be joined to her in the "consumation" process...or the consuming in the fire.

I see a clear and amazing type in this OT account, of the written word of the Bible ...or the two loaves of leavened (sin filled) bread which are placed in the fire, with the Bible Wheel emerging as multi-dimensional model of the purified loaves..( OT and NT), in the "3rd day". Of course, it would then also describe God's Glory in us...or Jesus the Word made Flesh!

The written word of the Bible has, all this time, been a type and shadow of man..inspired by God, but not yet perfected...the "firstborn" of the flock, but still an unclean donkey who is a "beast of BURDEN" ! And when see this, we realize that defending it as the infallible, literal word of God has been, without us realizing it, lifting our "head" above His. How humbling !

[Rose]

Rose: Now back to the original question of, 'How did the supernatural pattern of the Bible Wheel happen?' At this point in my journey the closest I can come to answering that question is to refer back to the idea I presented in the opening part of this article, which is the concept of a Collective Cosmic Consciousness which we are a part of and interact with by intuitions, dreams, visions, and meditations. These interactions give us glimpses into another realm and impart knowledge that helps to guide the progress of our human walk. In this manner I propose that all the human hands that had a part in the formation of what we now call the Protestant Cannon - made up of 66 books - were guided to construct a composite whole that rises above the bloody foundation of its roots and radiates a symbol which overshadows the bad with the essential teachings of Jesus...love and equality.

Hi Rose...I am beginning to understand in a deeper way too, that the corruption that is in the written word, has been used in some mysterious way, in the refining process. The leaven seems to have been purposely put in the dough. How amazing is it, that all Richard did, was take the 66 books of the written word, like a slab of dough, and rolled it. Not only is the concept of rolling within the gematria of the language in the 66 , but so is the consuming of the fire ! Richard seems to have literally put the leavened (sin filled) bread in the fire and pulled out the purified loaf!
It absolutely boggles the mind!

Hi kathryn

One way I like to look at the refining process is using the analogy of a butterfly, where the earthly caterpillar is transformed through metamorphosis into the free flying butterfly, using the same materials which made up the caterpillar. In the same manner, we see that out of the mire of the Old, Jesus was raised up to proclaim universal love and equality for all.

Rose

[kathryn]

Yes, it is an excellent illustration Rose and its cell function also demonstrates the roles of the "Butler" and "Baker" while we are in the refining stage..or the PEWpah. :D
Christ called himself a towla worm, which also attaches itself to the stem. It is represented, as you know, as the Scarlet Thread in scripture, which provides the escape route out of Jericho. (carnal mind)...and finally, in the Song of Solomon...it is represented in the lips of the Beloved...who is ready to "kiss" and consumate with her Lover.

If the caterpillar survives and reaches its full size, it attaches itself to a stem from which it hangs upside down. It then sheds its skin one last time, and the old skin hardens almost immediately and becomes a tough shell called a chrysalis (pronounced KRIS-uh-liss). The caterpillar has now become a pupa (pronounced PEW-puh) inside a chrysalis, and its body parts are broken down into a thick liquid that will feed special, pre-programmed cells that have lain dormant in the caterpillar. These cell clusters start to form specialized body parts, like wings, legs, and eyes of a new creature. This process goes on for days, weeks, and sometimes months, according to the type of butterfly that will emerge. The final stage occurs when an adult butterfly finally pushes itself out of its chrysalis, looking nothing like the caterpillar that it was. When the butterfly breaks through the now-soft shell, its wings are wet and crumpled and it must rest while it expands its wings and pumps them full of blood. Continued flapping makes them strong, and soon the adult butterfly is ready to fly away and begin this cycle all over again by looking for a mate.

[Bob May]

Hi Kathryn and Rose,

Thanks for pointing out those things about the butcher and baker. I believe they are important figures and much can be learned from them. They are integral to Joseph's (both as a figure for Jesus and us as fellow heirs) release from prison.
I see some other things here also which do not take away from what you have found, but only add to them.
The three baskets being above the baker's head can also be seen as three baptisms which are also the three parts of the generations or "regeneration" shown in the geneology of Christ in Matthew. Remember that they are broken into three 14's. But what do the three fourteens mean?

In the Gospel of Thomas it states, "One who seeks will find me in children from seven years, for there, hidden in the fourteenth age, I am revealed.
So we as the children of the Covenant (7 years) have Christ revealed to us in three stages of revelation.

Another verse that gives weight to this idea is in the song of Solomon.

So 2:9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, showing himself through the lattice.

The three baskets are of latticework. Christ is revealed through them as "a veil, when meditated upon, reveals what it conceals."

Jesus spoke about this regeneration in terms of a journey.
Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Now the baker was hung on a tree as was Jesus and we are told to take up our cross and follow him. Something of us must die in the process of regeneration. Unlike Jesus the Baker was hung by the neck as was the donkey or ass.
The neck is important. Joseph fell on the neck of Benjamin and wept when he was reunited with his brothers. Joseph is the inheritor of the covenant and Benjamin is the awareness of Grace. (Second born of Rachel)
We can apply this as Jesus being signified by Joseph or as us being signified by Joseph, because we also are fellow heirs of the promises. I prefer the latter because it is Our journey.

But back to the neck. It is very significant as being a crossing over into another mode of being. A death to one reality and a coming alive to another.

In the Qabalah it is signified by the invisible Sphirah called Daath (Knowledge) and carries the idea of True Experiential Knowledge.

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/treeoflife.jpg

It sits astride the Abyss which separates the three supernal Sephiroth of Crown, Father and Mother from the lower Sephiroth. In the human body it is the nape of the neck.

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/3baptisms.jpg

Baptism is death to one thing and revealing of another. In the lifting up of the baker's head is the revealing of the three baskets or baptisms in which Christ is revealed both to us and also in us.
(There are only three overlapping trees shown above. If the fourth were finished at the bottom to signify the Physical body then the blue line would begin right at the Kether (Head or Crown) of the Baker (us)

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

These verses in Revelation can be confusing. It seems as though only those who are beheaded will take part in the first resurrection. And that only they will escape the second death.
Rather, I think it is tied into the story of the butler, baker and Joseph. We are to have revealed to us that Jesus Christ is our head.
And in him being revealed to us something of us has to die. If our ass won't be redeemed it has to have it's neck broken.
Then we continue to follow him in the regeneration and escape from prison in the process.

Just some thoughts,
Bob

[gilgal]

When did they put the New Testament together?
Answering my own question:
http://godsbreath.wordpress.com/2007/05/03/new-testament-collection/

How was the Old Testament put together?
http://godsbreath.wordpress.com/2008/07/08/old-testament-collection/

See:
http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?p=31830

[kathryn]

Hi Kathryn and Rose,

Thanks for pointing out those things about the butcher and baker. I believe they are important figures and much can be learned from them. They are integral to Joseph's (both as a figure for Jesus and us as fellow heirs) release from prison.
I see some other things here also which do not take away from what you have found, but only add to them.
The three baskets being above the baker's head can also be seen as three baptisms which are also the three parts of the generations or "regeneration" shown in the geneology of Christ in Matthew. Remember that they are broken into three 14's. But what do the three fourteens mean?

In the Gospel of Thomas it states, "One who seeks will find me in children from seven years, for there, hidden in the fourteenth age, I am revealed.
So we as the children of the Covenant (7 years) have Christ revealed to us in three stages of revelation.

Another verse that gives weight to this idea is in the song of Solomon.

So 2:9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, showing himself through the lattice.

The three baskets are of latticework. Christ is revealed through them as "a veil, when meditated upon, reveals what it conceals."

Jesus spoke about this regeneration in terms of a journey.
Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Now the baker was hung on a tree as was Jesus and we are told to take up our cross and follow him. Something of us must die in the process of regeneration. Unlike Jesus the Baker was hung by the neck as was the donkey or ass.
The neck is important. Joseph fell on the neck of Benjamin and wept when he was reunited with his brothers. Joseph is the inheritor of the covenant and Benjamin is the awareness of Grace. (Second born of Rachel)
We can apply this as Jesus being signified by Joseph or as us being signified by Joseph, because we also are fellow heirs of the promises. I prefer the latter because it is Our journey.

But back to the neck. It is very significant as being a crossing over into another mode of being. A death to one reality and a coming alive to another.

In the Qabalah it is signified by the invisible Sphirah called Daath (Knowledge) and carries the idea of True Experiential Knowledge.

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/treeoflife.jpg

It sits astride the Abyss which separates the three supernal Sephiroth of Crown, Father and Mother from the lower Sephiroth. In the human body it is the nape of the neck.

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/3baptisms.jpg

Baptism is death to one thing and revealing of another. In the lifting up of the baker's head is the revealing of the three baskets or baptisms in which Christ is revealed both to us and also in us.
(There are only three overlapping trees shown above. If the fourth were finished at the bottom to signify the Physical body then the blue line would begin right at the Kether (Head or Crown) of the Baker (us)

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

These verses in Revelation can be confusing. It seems as though only those who are beheaded will take part in the first resurrection. And that only they will escape the second death.
Rather, I think it is tied into the story of the butler, baker and Joseph. We are to have revealed to us that Jesus Christ is our head.
And in him being revealed to us something of us has to die. If our ass won't be redeemed it has to have it's neck broken.
Then we continue to follow him in the regeneration and escape from prison in the process.

Just some thoughts,
Bob

Bob,

As always, you have opened the frame wider for me.
I'll be back this evening when I have time to respond. Again...thank you!!!

[kathryn]

Bob...your last post has opened up understanding in an area that I've been pondering on for a long time. I'm just doing a bit of research in the BW data base will be back soon. :thumb:

[duxrow]

The Baker and Butler dreams may also be a pre-figure of communion!
http://www.cswnet.com/~duxrow/Communion.htm

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The Baker and Butler dreams may also be a pre-figure of communion!
http://www.cswnet.com/~duxrow/Communion.htm (http://www.cswnet.com/%7Eduxrow/Communion.htm)
That's interesting. I'll take a look. I've always been impressed with the foreshadow of communion in Genesis 14:

Genesis 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
The significance is greatly amplified when we couple this with the explanation of the relation between Christ and Melchizedek in the Book of Hebrews on Spoke 14.

Here's my Inner Cycle article on the links between Genesis 14 and Hebrews (http://www.biblewheel.com/InnerWheels/Genesis/Genesis14.asp).

And here is a link to the main article on Hebrews (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Nun_Melchizedek.asp).

[kathryn]

The Baker and Butler dreams may also be a pre-figure of communion!
http://www.cswnet.com/~duxrow/Communion.htm

Yes Duxrow! I hadn't thought of that! Of course (!)....we become the hollowed out or emptied cup which is filled with wine, when we have fully consumed the blood of Jesus Christ. No one can partake of it until we've been consumed or purified in the fire.
This is why Jesus said they would become sick and die if they didn't rightly discern (or divide) the Body, in partaking of it! I had never fully understood that verse before. This is another beautiful picture of the leavened bread...or written word...a type and shadow of the Body before purification. We are" inspired of God", as the written word, but still full of iniquity. Until we can rightly divide or discern the pure rhema Word of God (Wine) within the "midst" of it, we continue to sicken and die because we are partaking of a mixture. Thank you Duxrow!

PS...I just remembered too...that of course the communion elements were both wine and bread...and this all took place on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread....which I now see, in the story of Joseph's release from prison, is also Pharaoh's feast prepared for his servants, after the baker had been hanged, and the butler restored.

[kathryn]

I have my grandchildren all week and so all of this recent study on the unleavened/leavened bread vs the written word and bible wheel has been just at a slow simmer until I can actively return and study more. I've been catching up on the forum in the middle of the night, while they are sleeping.

This whole concept of rolling, as Richard took the 66 books of the written bible and rolled them into the Bible Wheel, has been in the forefront of my mind, as it is found all through scripture in obvious and not so obvious ways. Jesus' entire ministry in the Galilee (circuit) is a type and shadow of the "rolling" concept. The disciples are translated from the MIDST of the Galilee, to Capernaum. This again is a type and shadow of our "translation" to Life, when our "midst" is purified or we rightly discern (or divide) WHO is in our midst...or the rhema Word from the written. The Revelation of Jesus Christ begins when John "sees" Him in the MIDST of the 7 candlesticks. Before that, the man of sin(the old man) must be fully discerned or revealed in OUR midst, in order that we can "rightly divide" the two.

I realized tonight that the stone that is rolled in front of Lazarus' (and Jesus) tomb is also a picture of the written bible (and us).
It becomes the capstone when purified...or Christ in His Body, joined to Jesus Christ, the Head and corner stone.(when the "baker" is hanged or be-headed and the "butler" or CUP bearer is restored to His former position.)

It is also a type of Lazarus. We are the stone rolled in front of the tomb, as well as the decaying corpse, as iniquity is ripening or reaching its "fullness". We become the Resurrection, when it (the stone) has been ROLLED AWAY, in the purifying. Lazarus is raised as the bread is fully raised, when the work of the leaven has been stopped in the fire. (thank you Duxrow for pointing out this "raising" of the bread. You truly have been getting my "ducks in a row"!:-)
We are now in the process of removing the stinking "grave clothes" or again, rightly dividing or discerning the true Word of God from the written or mixture...separating the profane or corrupted, from the True...death from Life. It is US who must remove the grave clothes, by casting down every VAIN imagination and taking them captive to the obedience of Christ. (2 Cor. 10)

Elisha, after healing the man of leprosy (type of our mortality/iniquity), threw a stick (corner stone) in the water, causing the axe HEAD to SWIM to the surface. (capstone...153 fish http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/gr_153.asp) The axe head was iron..#26 on the element table...YHVH. (corner stone joined to head stone or head and body become ONE: http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/gr_26.asp ) Please note that this account is found in 2 (SECOND) Kings 6:6.
http://www.biblewheel.com/GR/GR_Database.asp?bnum=12&cnum=6&vnum=6

Lazarus is raised on the 4th day...the dalet or door:

http://www.biblewheel.com/wheel/spokes/Dalet.asp

[kathryn]

That's interesting. I'll take a look. I've always been impressed with the foreshadow of communion in Genesis 14:

Genesis 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
The significance is greatly amplified when we couple this with the explanation of the relation between Christ and Melchizedek in the Book of Hebrews on Spoke 14.

Here's my Inner Cycle article on the links between Genesis 14 and Hebrews (http://www.biblewheel.com/InnerWheels/Genesis/Genesis14.asp).

And here is a link to the main article on Hebrews (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Nun_Melchizedek.asp).

Richard...I am so eager to explore spoke 14 on this subject. I'm still on spoke 3, but I can see how it connects with 14 in a much deeper way now!

ps..and yes, I DO want to pursue the Et Kol (re: Judas thread) Sorry for getting off topic, but there was no other place to interject it at that point, as it was in the context of "rightly dividing" the Judas account) For now though, just ruminate on the possibility of a further movement of the BW until I can articulate more clearly what I think I'm seeing.
In my last post, I spoke of the translation out of the midst of the Galilee or "circuit".
This is one of the types I have recognized that might apply to lifting the "midst" of the wheel, through the neck (baker's neck..also Haman , Judas, donkey) of the rim. (which then forms a SECOND rim. Or....rather than the Elijah type passing in one dimension to the Elisha type, he is "pulled" through "him"...first King through second King(s)...or, Jesus Christ "in and through" his Body (the second, living goat of the Atonement sacrifice, which has the blood applied from the death of the first, and then "released" into the wilderness...or the second living dove, in the sacrifice for the cleansing of leprosy, which is dipped in the blood of first, and then "released" into the field.
This second rim would then express the " double" witness we see in the "8" of the infinity symbol of the Et Kol ; the "cloven" hoof (of an UNclean animal)we have been standing on in division, has been exchanged; the "cloven" tongues of Fire the disciples heard at Pentecost, in the downpayment (earnest) of the Holy Spirit, have now become the Fullness.(Joseph, the Flame) They could only hear a "cloven" tongue, because they still "heard" through division caused by the mixture. (carnal nature and divine, mind of man and Mind of Christ, written bible and Word made Flesh/Jesus the Christ(plural)
The Kol then becomes the Kole or Voice of God. Remember our conversation about the lamed connecting the two words, as a tongue, represented by the Kol infinity symbol , within the Wheel? http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?p=21717#post21717)

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard...I am so eager to explore spoke 14 on this subject. I'm still on spoke 3, but I can see how it connects with 14 in a much deeper way now!

Actually, there is a very deep connection between the Spoke 3 and Spoke 14 because they are on the same diameter of the Bible Wheel:

http://www.biblewheel.com/images/ThirdDiameter.jpg

This is extremely significant because the Book of Hebrews is the "Levitical" book of the NT. It mentions priests and/or sacrifice over 50 times as compared to just a few times in the other NT Epistles. And it is the book that reveals Jesus Christ as our High Priest according to the Order of Melchizedeq (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Nun_Melchizedek.asp):

http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Nun_Priest.gif

And Hebrews is the only book of the NT to specifically mention the Levitical priesthood:
Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
The study of correlations along the diameters is extremely fruitful.



ps..and yes, I DO want to pursue the Et Kol (re: Judas thread) Sorry for getting off topic, but there was no other place to interject it at that point, as it was in the context of "rightly dividing" the Judas account) For now though, just ruminate on the possibility of a further movement of the BW until I can articulate more clearly what I think I'm seeing.
In my last post, I spoke of the translation out of the midst of the Galilee or "circuit".
This is one of the types I have recognized that might apply to lifting the "midst" of the wheel, through the neck (baker's neck..also Haman , Judas, donkey) of the rim. (which then forms a SECOND rim. Or....rather than the Elijah type passing in one dimension to the Elisha type, he is "pulled" through "him"...first King through second King(s)...or, Jesus Christ "in and through" his Body (the second, living goat of the Atonement sacrifice, which has the blood applied from the death of the first, and then "released" into the wilderness...or the second living dove, in the sacrifice for the cleansing of leprosy, which is dipped in the blood of first, and then "released" into the field.
This second rim would then express the " double" witness we see in the "8" of the infinity symbol of the Et Kol ; the "cloven" hoof (of an UNclean animal)we have been standing on in division, has been exchanged; the "cloven" tongues of Fire the disciples heard at Pentecost, in the downpayment (earnest) of the Holy Spirit, have now become the Fullness.(Joseph, the Flame) They could only hear a "cloven" tongue, because they still "heard" through division caused by the mixture. (carnal nature and divine, mind of man and Mind of Christ, written bible and Word made Flesh/Jesus the Christ(plural)
The Kol then becomes the Kole or Voice of God. Remember our conversation about the lamed connecting the two words, as a tongue, represented by the Kol infinity symbol , within the Wheel? http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?p=21717#post21717)
Wow ... there's a lot there. Please start a new thread when you get your thoughts collected.

Great chatting!

[kathryn]

Hi Richard...Actually, it is fitting in so well with the topic of this thread , if you don't mind, we'll leave it here for now. Also...regarding collecting my thoughts, after Duxrow's post , much of what I was thinking came together as I was writing my response to you. I'll just leave what I've sent with you for now.

[gilgal]

That's interesting. I'll take a look. I've always been impressed with the foreshadow of communion in :

And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
The significance is greatly amplified when we couple this with the explanation of the relation between Christ and Melchizedek in the Book of Hebrews on Spoke 14.

Here's my Inner Cycle article on the links between and Hebrews (http://www.biblewheel.com/InnerWheels/Genesis/.asp).

And here is a link to the main article on Hebrews (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Nun_Melchizedek.asp).
The Matzah bread which is like a cracker has deep symbolism to the body of Christ.
See Exodus 12.

But the reason why the bread is pierced is prophetic to the Messiah being pierced (Zechariah 12:10 and Psalm 22:16). And the reason why it is striped is to point to the Messiah being striped (Isaiah 53:5).

And what is strange is that after Egypt's passover not much is talked about in the Old Testament. But in the New Testament the gospels bare record of the 2 of the 4 cups of wine Jesus drank. So the Passover meal was developed in between the two testaments.

Further, three matzahs are grouped together and the middle matzah is broken in two. The group of three is called a "unity" (Trinity? Tri-Unity of God). One part of the broken matzah is called in Greek the Affikomen, I think wrapped and hidden. And the children in the house are encouraged to search it out. And he who finds it gets rewarded. Symbolism: Have you found the Messiah your savior?

[kathryn]

Gilgal:
Further, three matzahs are grouped together and the middle matzah is broken in two. The group of three is called a "unity" (Trinity? Tri-Unity of God). One part of the broken matzah is called in Greek the Affikomen, I think wrapped and hidden. And the children in the house are encouraged to search it out. And he who finds it gets rewarded. Symbolism: Have you found the Messiah your savior?
______________

This is interesting Gilgal. The 3 with the 1 broken in the middle of course, also pictures Golgotha. Again, we have the "midst" emphasized
The hidden aspect would apply to God in the book of Esther too, I would think.
It is amazing, once you see the "midst" concept, how often it occurs in Scripture. I first noticed it in numbers, when the gematria values would describe what was occuring in the subject I was studying, in the midst of the number itself. I nicknamed them "pillar numbers". :-) Of course we see the consummation of it in Rev. 22:1 with the crystal clear river coming from the Throne, with the tree of life in the midst and either side.

[kathryn]

Richard...I had no idea that the resurrection of Lazarus on the 4th day also has a link to the hanging theme , through the root of Dalet...dalal! Wow!

http://www.biblewheel.com/wheel/spokes/dalet_elements.asp

[gilgal]

It is amazing, once you see the "midst" concept, how often it occurs in Scripture. I first noticed it in numbers, when the gematria values would describe what was occuring in the subject I was studying, in the midst of the number itself.
Curious. It was the 4th or middle lamp that went out when Samuel was called by God to prophesy. Also Jesus uttered 7 things on the cross but the middle (4th) saying was "My God, my God. Why hast thou forsaken me" which is when the sun went out.

[kathryn]

Curious. It was the 4th or middle lamp that went out when Samuel was called by God to prophesy. Also Jesus uttered 7 things on the cross but the middle (4th) saying was "My God, my God. Why hast thou forsaken me" which is when the sun went out.

Amazing! And Jesus secretly entered the Feast of Tabernacles in the middle of the Feast. This would also place it on the 4th day ! The disciples were translated to Capernaum at the 3.5 mile in the Galilee...within the 4th. Thanks Gilgal! I hadn't seen the 4th day concept of Lazarus and the hanging of the baker/restoration of the butler, in these examples until now.

PS...This is wonderful! The back and forth on this thread is what I've been longing for. One tosses out a "note" and then another responds, enlarging the sound!

[kathryn]

So Richard...my thought of a further movement of the Bible Wheel, in lifting the middle of it through the neck or rim, would also describe all of the above.

I have a feeling the neck or rim also describes the "molten" sea and I do believe it is turned "upside down" like the caterpillar, with the 12 oxen at the base, pulled through or "birthed" through the brim.

Do you remember the analogy of the body and the UNcomely body parts, in Corinthians?
The molten sea, I believe, is a type of cervix and the HINDERPARTS of the 12 oxen, all facing inward, forming a "circuit", the anus underneath. This is the Galilee. The molten sea grows or dialates to 10 cubits across, from the laver.
It describes, I believe...the full dilation of the cervix , which dilates to exactly 10 cm. in the transition stage just before birth. Why picture the uncomely part? It is the ASS that must be redeemed by the Lamb. Satan exits out the ASS/donkey of the Bride in Pentecost (mixture). He has been in the "midst" of the Body, consuming the "dust" and is "cast down" as we cast down the vain imaginations. God very definately has a fine tuned and very dry sense of humor.
This "pulling through" is both the "hanging" and the consummation
revealing the final description of it in Rev. 22:1, with the Tree of Life spanning the river, the 12 fruits on either side.
And of course...this occurs in the 66th book.

PS..and speaking of the "brim"...those 6 earthen vessels in the story of the wedding of Cana, are filled to the BRIM with water
and then...filled with wine. A birth occurs" in and through" the "waters". (axe head/153 swims to the surface)

[duxrow]

Love that water to wine part. It was his first miracle, we're told, and He still does that first miracle in the life of anyone who becomes a vessel filled with the Holy Ghost. That's why Christians should be the happiest people on earth! But we're maybe not drunken as you suppose.. ha.

[kathryn]

The molten sea, I believe, is a type of cervix and the HINDERPARTS of the oxen, all facing inward, forming a "circuit", the anus underneath. This is the Galilee

Correction: The Galilee or circuit, I believe, is the double rim, or the cervix AND the uncomely part, when the rim is doubled , or the "8" of the infinity symbol is folded down forming two rims.
It is interesting to note also, that when the one rim of the wheel becomes two, the two passages of the arrow of the infinity symbol, passes through the full 46 value of the alef/tav and kaph/lamed added together...forming the 46 chromosomes of man, 23 from the Father and 23 from the Mother. The true double witness will express the dual nature of God...male/female. (or, circumcized heart consumated with virgin mind...or high priest and the holy of holies consumated, when Atonement has moved from legally imputing righteousness, to "infusing" it...and finally....Adam/Eve with the curse reversed in fullness.)

PS..oh my! I just realized that the "folding down" into the double rim, describes a terlet before it describes a throne!8:@)

[kathryn]

Love that water to wine part. It was his first miracle, we're told, and He still does that first miracle in the life of anyone who becomes a vessel filled with the Holy Ghost. That's why Christians should be the happiest people on earth! But we're maybe not drunken as you suppose.. ha.

Hi Duxrow...No...we're definatly not as drunken as you suppose! We haven't received the NEW wineskin or tabernacle yet, to contain it. That butterfly is still in the PEWpah stage. Perhaps a divine enema is in order? 8:@)

PS...the Cana miracle was the first...but the first is last, last is first. Remember, the caterpillar is turned "upside down". (also inside out, it would seem)

[Bob May]

Yes Duxrow! I hadn't thought of that! Of course (!)....we become the hollowed out or emptied cup which is filled with wine, when we have fully consumed the blood of Jesus Christ. No one can partake of it until we've been consumed or purified in the fire.
This is why Jesus said they would become sick and die if they didn't rightly discern (or divide) the Body, in partaking of it! I had never fully understood that verse before. This is another beautiful picture of the leavened bread...or written word...a type and shadow of the Body before purification. We are" inspired of God", as the written word, but still full of iniquity. Until we can rightly divide or discern the pure rhema Word of God (Wine) within the "midst" of it, we continue to sicken and die because we are partaking of a mixture. Thank you Duxrow!

PS...I just remembered too...that of course the communion elements were both wine and bread...and this all took place on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread....which I now see, in the story of Joseph's release from prison, is also Pharaoh's feast prepared for his servants, after the baker had been hanged, and the butler restored.

1co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

In my old church we were very law oriented and these verses were quoted often just before communion.
There is a major crossover at some point in a Christian's understanding. We are under the law or under grace. The two are incompatible. We are either one or the other but must come to this realization within our hearts ourselves. Once we believe we are saved and under grace but the doctrine that we subscribe to in our hearts either blesses us or condemns us.

For many years I would take communion asking forgivenesss for all my sins lest I eat unworthily. But at a point in time after much soul searching and biblical evidence I came to the conclusion that I was under grace. This despite being in arguments and disputes for over 6 months with both my pastor and most of the congregation I belonged to.

Because of this realisation of being under grace the whole tenor of these verses changed. To eat and drink unworthily was to eat and drink with the law mentality. Or to be more accurate a "mixture" of the law and grace. Because if we are under that yoke we will always come up wanting and unworthy. And if you add one law to grace it is no more grace.
It is only by grace that we are worthy. It is only because of the cross and the blood that we can partake of the bread and wine worthily.

Even if we are under grace, which we are as soon as we believe, If we do not realize it we eat and drink unworthily.We were forgiven once for all at the cross. The cup is a reminder of that.
It is our task to grow in the awareness of the grace that has been bestowed upon us. Not to worry about being unworthy because we are worthy not by anything we can do but by what we have been given.

This is the mixture you speak of. God said because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth. We are either under the law or under grace.
Too many churches pretend to preach the Gospel and teach this mixture which leads to condemnation, sickness and death.

You shall know the truth and the truth shalll set you free. The mixture is not the truth. We are to examine ourselves to find the mixture.

The law condemns us and leads us to Christ. Because it leads us to the realisation that we cannot keep the law and that even if we could we would be found guilty for past sins.
The only freedom is imputed righteousness and the knowing that it applies to us. That is the Grace and Truth that Jesus brought.

[duxrow]

I've heard before from those who don't think it was his first miracle and would rather believe he carved a bird out of wood and saw it fly away... ha

This is again the second miracle that Jesus did, when he was come out of Judaea into Galilee. John 4:54 KJV

[kathryn]

Bob:

The only freedom is imputed righteousness and the knowing that it applies to us. That is the Grace and Truth that Jesus brought.


Yes Bob..I agree...but I would take it one step farther. The Law is also a prophecy of how we will be when we move from being imputed or covered with righteousness, to being "infused" with righteousness,( when we have gone through the purification process of the Baptism of Fire). ie:
we WILL love God with all our heart and mind
we WILL love our neighbours as we love ourselves.
we WILL not steal, lie, etc etc.
When Christ is fully moving in and through us, we are truly free because we no longer have the dual natures, carnal and divine warring within us.

[kathryn]

I've heard before from those who don't think it was his first miracle and would rather believe he carved a bird out of wood and saw it fly away... ha

This is again the second miracle that Jesus did, when he was come out of Judaea into Galilee. John 4:54 KJV

I'm not quite catching what you're saying Duxrow . Could you 'splain? (as ricky ricardo used to say:) ) Do you believe that we already have our new wineskins?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I've heard before from those who don't think it was his first miracle and would rather believe he carved a bird out of wood and saw it fly away... ha

This is again the second miracle that Jesus did, when he was come out of Judaea into Galilee. John 4:54 KJV
The Quran teaches that Jesus did that miracle:
Quran 5:110 When Allah will say: O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My favour to thee and to thy mother, when I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit; thou spokest to people in the cradle and in old age, and when I taught thee the Book and the Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel, and when thou didst determine out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then thou didst breathe into it and it became a bird by My permission; and thou didst heal the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when thou didst raise the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the Children of Israel from thee when thou camest to them with clear arguments -- but those of them who disbelieved said: This is nothing but clear enchantment.
And the Muslim wiki also quotes (http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Parallelism:_Jesus_Christ_and_Clay_Birds) the apocryphal story (the apparent source of the story in the Quran) that says Jesus did it when he was seven"

The First Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ: Chapter 15.1. “And when the Lord Jesus was seven years of age, he was on a certain day with other boys his companions about the same age. 2. Who at play made clay into several shapes, namely, asses, oxen, birds, and other figures. 3. Each boasting of his work and endeavoring to exceed the rest. 4. Then the Lord Jesus said to the boys, I will command these figures which I have made to walk. 5. And immediately they moved, and when he commanded them to return, they returned. 6. He had also made the figures of birds and sparrows, which, when he commanded to fly, did fly, and when he commanded to stand still, did stand still; and if he gave them meat and drink, they did eat and drink. 7. When at length the boys went away and related these things to their parents, their fathers said to them, Take heed, children, for the future, of his company, for he is a sorcerer; shun and avoid him, and from now on never play with him.”
I've never figured out how Muslims could believe the Quran since it is so obviously a garbled mish-mash of Bible stories and apocryphal fables.

[gilgal]

The molten sea, I believe, is a type of cervix and the HINDERPARTS of the oxen, all facing inward, forming a "circuit", the anus underneath. This is the Galilee

Correction: The Galilee or circuit, I believe, is the double rim, or the cervix AND the uncomely part, when the rim is doubled , or the "8" of the infinity symbol is folded down forming two rims.
It is interesting to note also, that when the one rim of the wheel becomes two, the two passages of the arrow of the infinity symbol, passes through the full 46 value of the alef/tav and kaph/lamed added together...forming the 46 chromosomes of man, 23 from the Father and 23 from the Mother. The true double witness will express the dual nature of God...male/female. (or, circumcized heart consumated with virgin mind...or high priest and the holy of holies consumated, when Atonement has moved from legally imputing righteousness, to "infusing" it...and finally....Adam/Eve with the curse reversed in fullness.)

PS..oh my! I just realized that the "folding down" into the double rim, describes a terlet before it describes a throne!8:@)
Now you got me wondering...the brazen laver must've had some faucet underneath for running water to wash the sacrifices and the priests' ritual bath before they could get in the holy place.

Now the sea of Galilee is connected to the Jordan meaning descent. Now I wonder if the Jordan is pouring out to the sea of Galilee? or carrying water out to somewhere else. I wonder if there is a link to Galilee and the brazen laver; Jordan and the running water from the faucet of the laver; the priests' ritual bath before entering the holy place and the baptism of Jesus in the Jordan...Of course Jesus dies in Jerusalem the most holy place on earth.

[kathryn]

Now you got me wondering...the brazen laver must've had some faucet underneath for running water to wash the sacrifices and the priests' ritual bath before they could get in the holy place.

Now the sea of Galilee is connected to the Jordan meaning descent. Now I wonder if the Jordan is pouring out to the sea of Galilee? or carrying water out to somewhere else. I wonder if there is a link to Galilee and the brazen laver; Jordan and the running water from the faucet of the laver; the priests' ritual bath before entering the holy place and the baptism of Jesus in the Jordan...Of course Jesus dies in Jerusalem the most holy place on earth.

Ah, Gilgal! Wonderful connections! Yes, the Galilee connects to the Jordan, which in turn empties into the DEAD sea . It is also approx. 33 miles in circumference, which would be the two rims of 33, if the wheel was folded into the "8" .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_of_Galilee

The cross outside of Jerusalem..or the "mother" is a picture of course, of the "mark" on our forehead, when "the place of the skull" has been "breeched"/divided and hollowed out. The pipes to the candlesticks were all hollow (as was the altar, staves, etc) It is the place where Jacob's ladder (the 33 vertebrae of the spine enclosing the spinal cord) becomes joined to the true Head...and the angels or messengers ascend and descend. The 33 vertebrae or ladder enclosing the spinal cord is also a picture of the "circuit" or Galilee. It becomes the Holy "Highway" or "street" in the New Jerusalem mother/bride, pictured in Rev. 22:1.
There are two glands on either side of the base of the brain, where the cord enters, called the "olives". When scripture speaks of Christ placing his feet on the Mount of Olives...it first and foremost describes the breech and removal of the carnal mind, I believe.
The "white horse" in Rev. 19, I believe, is a picture of the hippocampus gland, which is shaped like a white SEA horse.

PS...I believe the skull is also the bowl of the candlestick. It is the "bowl of wrath" in its carnal state...the bowl of oil/light when the Mind of Christ appears in our "midst".

[gilgal]

The cross outside of Jerusalem..or the "mother" is a picture of course, of the "mark" on our forehead, when "the place of the skull" has been "emptied" or hollowed out. The pipes to the candlesticks were all hollow (as was the altar, staves, etc) It is the place where Jacob's ladder (the 33 vertebrae of the spine enclosing the spinal cord) becomes joined to the true Head...and the angels or messengers ascend and descend. There are two glands on either side of the base of the brain, where the cord enters, called "olives". When scripture speaks of Christ placing his feet on the Mount of Olives...it first and foremost describes the breech and removal of the carnal mind, I believe.
The "white horse" in , I believe, is a picture of the hippocampus gland, which is shaped like a white SEA horse.

PS...I believe the skull is also the bowl of the candlestick. It is the "bowl of wrath" in its carnal state...the bowl of oil/light when the Mind of Christ appears in our "midst".
Ok you lost me there.

The Jordan pours out to the Dead Sea. It would make sense in the symbolism that points out that Jesus came to die. But the Dead Sea is not mentioned in the NT.

[kathryn]

Ok you lost me there.
Sorry..I assumed you did, with the connections you made. Did you read the post about the Galilee as the two rims..one being the cervix, and one being the "uncomely" part? If you didn't...the placement of the Galilee, the Jordan and the Dead Sea, is symbolic of the mind/cervix of the Bride who gives birth to the Mind of Christ in her. She must "cast down the vain imaginations from her mind (2 Cor. 10), which in turn, eliminates satan from her "midst". The "toxins" (iniquity) are released into the Dead Sea.
The Jordan pours out to the Dead Sea. It would make sense in the symbolism that points out that Jesus came to die. But the Dead Sea is not mentioned in the NT.
It is there in type and shadow. Much of the revelation of the intimate aspects of the Bride/birth are hidden in scripture as a baby is hidden in the womb.

[kathryn]

Gilgal...I was wondering if you were having trouble seeing the Galilee in two different functions, through my explanation. I can see something clearly in my own mind, and assume someone else is. Let me know where you are having difficulty..:confused:

[duxrow]

Very interesting, Kathryn. I can't follow some of it, but remember wondering how the priests would wash hands and feet in the laver (because the procedure was not spelled out..) Zola Levitt had a page on how the growth of the baby in the womb compared to the Feasts. (Haven't looked at it lately).
Because David was the 33rd generation from Adam (and Jesus #66), I'm eager to see how that leads (figuratively?) to the 33 vertebrae.. ?

[kathryn]

sorry Duxrow, all of the connections came very quickly between types. I am going back now to edit. I might have to just eliminate some or someone will think I'm trying to force feed a goose, rather than share politely. My curser keeps konking out on me, so it might take awhile. (the hands and feet go together with the double concept) When Elisha "raises" the son, (type of Jesus raising His corporate son)...he lies on him, face to face, eye to eye, mouth to mouth. In other words...hands and feet are seen doubled up and lying down in this picture.)

[kathryn]

Gilgal:Now the sea of Galilee is connected to the Jordan meaning descent. Now I wonder if the Jordan is pouring out to the sea of Galilee? or carrying water out to somewhere else. I wonder if there is a link to Galilee and the brazen laver;

I began this last night...It must be your name Gilgal...once it started rolling.......well....it rolled 8:@)What can I say? I won't apologize because I enjoyed it immensely! hee hee

LAVER /MOLTEN SEA EXPRESSES BOTH BIRTH INTO LIFE AND ELIMINATION OF "TOXINS" (CARNAL MINDSETS)
THE GALILEE...OH WHEEL!

Gil...Just in case I didn't explain it properly: The laver is a type and shadow of a woman's cervix, which dilates when she is in labour. The molten sea is a picture of the laver/cervix dilated to its full extent . A fully dilated cervix is 10 cm during the transition process, just before birth. (the molten sea is 10 cubits in diameter) In other words, the doubled rim/wheel represents an elimination and a birth. Man of sin(old/carnal man) being eliminated, Son of God being birthed. (or, Jesus Christ in and through His corporate son) In a birth, the baby's HEAD places pressure on the bowel. The elimination is occuring quite naturally, as the labor is in earnest. Labor is a long process...but when the HEAD begins to CROWN...it happens with a "suddenly". (God comes suddenly to His "Temple")gilgal: the birth of baby on 10th day, illustrated in your post#80 on Feast days/gestation can be seen also in the theme of 10 , both in the molten sea and cervix. 10 of course, is the Law. The "birth" occurs when the Law has been fully engraved on BOTH sides the Heart. (as it was engraved on both sides of the STONE tablets.

So...in the two functions of the Galilee...the laver/molten sea, is first the "uncomely part" or anus, represented by the 12 oxen with the "hinderparts" facing inwards, forming a circuit . (Galilee). It empties, as the digestive system/bowel..into the Jordan, into the Dead Sea, as the Bride is "casting down the vain imaginations". (2 Cor 10)

In the second function, the laver/molten sea/Galilee is the cervix, which is also the "gate" to the mind/womb of the Bride or the Holy of Holies, It is being purified in the "fire" (MOLTEN sea) . It is the "midst" of the Bride that is being purified...and pictured in scripture in the midst of the Galilee from where the disciples are translated to Capernaum.


TRIUMPHAL ENTRY, PAUL'S SHPWRECK AND REV. 22:11 IN THE SEPARATION, BIRTH AND REVEALING PROCESS

This two part process can also be clearly seen in the Triumphal Entry , which begins at a place where "TWO ways meet" or the carnal/divine and Bride/Bridegroom, mother/colt. We are the "mother" who gives " birth" to Christ in us...which is..."the manifestation of the Sons of God"(which all of the creation has been waiting/groaning for. This phase pictured in the Triumphant Entry", is the "transition" stage of a woman's labor in childbirth, when the "mother and colt" are still together. They have been "untied" at the place "where TWO ways meet..which is when the baby is switched over to its own blood supply. (see Gilgal's post #80). Note however, that the gospel implies that Jesus "rode" BOTH mother and colt. It is also represented in the 153 fish who swim to the surface (as the axe HEAD) and are pulled into the NET.

This also typifies the breaking up of Paul's ship at the place where TWO seas met. The viper jumps out of the "heat" when Paul lays a bundle of sticks down, and attaches itself to his hand. It is (no longer
within the midst or the "air" (second heaven) of Paul's mind.
He flings it in the fire, suffering NO harm"no weapon formed against us shall prosper"...another picture of satan being CAST DOWN. when the purification or the refining in the fire is completed.
The viper..or Prince of the Power of the Air, has been cast out of the "air" (mind)to the "earth".(and out of our "earth" or body)this illustrates the "inside out concept, when the midst of the wheel is pulled forward through the neck of the wheel. This is , I believe, the "enclosed" nature of the New Jerusalem or the wall around it separating the Holy from the profane. In Rev. 22:11, (22 + 11 =33) it reveals the "line" in the sand quite clearly, once you see this "enclosed" aspect.
vs 11: Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because time is near. Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right, continue to do right, and let him who is holy, continue to be holy." In other words......the plumb line has gone down and the" measurement" is taken from here. This is, I believe, when the separation of wickedness takes place, in the account in Zechariah, and the basket of wickedness is lifted into MIDAIR and then removed to Shinar, (babylon) where a house is being built for it. Of course, this is also a picture of the "lifting up" and of the Baker's head. There are more examples of the in scripture, but this is getting long enough

SATAN LOSES DOMINION OF THE AIR
The viper is now subject to Adam as Adam/Eve now have regained dominion over the earth.
The curse has been reversed , the Ark has come to rest on Ararat (meaning cursed reversed) or Mt. Zion. The scapegoat, imputed with Adam's sin..us/Bride...emerges from the parched place (zion) or wilderness, "leaning on her Lover" Paul then had great favor amongst the Islanders.(the harvest is ready)

All of these events portray the one event in the MIDST of the Galilee, (or circuit which typifies the heart/mind of the Bride. It is very much like an electrical circuit running from the source of Power, around and back to the source of Power...or Mind of Christ)

GOD'S AUTHORITY REVEALED IN THE BELOVED BRIDE, SONG OF SOLOMON

It is a two part process of cleansing and then filling or dividing and then joining. It is both a "casting out" and a pulling "in and through"(Us in Christ, Christ the hope of Glory, in and through us).
It's all a wonderful weave of redemption typified by the scarlet thread, which becomes the" scarlet lip(s)" of the Beloved in the Song of Solomon; upper lip/capstone, bottom lip/headstone or corner.
It portrays two lips as One, surrounding the TEETH.

The teeth are described in the SOS as "lambs just up from the washing, each one TWINNED, not one of them stands alone.
This is a beautiful picture of the "pairs" from the Ark, now emerging in redemption and harvest in the power of the FULL double witness...or the UNDIVIDED LIKENESS AND IMAGE OF GOD, MALE/FEMALE.
Of course...these frame or encompass the TONGUE (as the Lamed) which has been "tamed" to bring the whole Body (harvest) in, and to allow the KOLE or VOICE of God to go forth on Earth in fullness; the WORD OF GOD now heard as THUNDER(no longer the "still small voice").

Jesus now takes his whip to the money changers or those merchandising the word of God , when He enters the city/Temple; this is a picture or type of the removal of iniquity in us.
The temple had been 46 years in the making...a type of our physical body or temple with 46 chromosomes. Now, with the entrance of Jesus into our midst (between the candlesticks), the "arrow" of the Et Kol, which had to pass through the kaph/lamed(23) and alef/tav(23) seperately, are now joined in our physical, glorified body as the full set of 46.
FIRST SIGHT OF THE NATION OF ISRAEL,AS BRIDE, ON EARTH

The FIRST appearance of Israel, or manifestation of the regathering of the "nation" of Israel into the "Promised Land" is in their FIRST and original "land" inheritance...their glorified bodies made from the dust of the earth. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN ON THE CONDITION OF OBEDIENCE...and it is for the purpose of marrying the Bridegroom. The firstfruits CANNOT be presented to the Father any other way. The purpose of the firstfruits is to SANCTIFY the rest of the crop/harvest. The name Israel belongs to Joseph and only Christ in His "Joseph/Ephraim/Mannesah type" can redeem it...NOT Judah. The sceptre departs from Judah, when Shiloh comes.

When the "Triumphal Entry" has been made, and the Bride (New Jerusalem) consumated, it is pictured in type, in the body, as the spinal cord encased in the 33 vertebrae , joining Head and Body as One.
The spinal cord is the scarlet thread. The blood is made in the bone which forms the white "robe" of righteousness/linen encasing "her" . Of course, this is a picture of Jesus Christ who is both in and through her...but also seen "outside" in the physical body. It IS a picture of our glorified body, in fact.Scripture eliminates the mention of blood in the resurrected body of Jesus because everything is turned "inside out" in redemption. The production of blood is hidden within the bone. It moves in the process of redemption, from the midst of the bone, to circulate through the body, and finally be released into the EARTH, when Jesus begins to take on Adam's eniquity (shown in his blood sweat) in the GARDEN. This is the beginning of the reversal of Adam's curse of tilling the ground by the sweat of his brow

It is also "Jacob's ladder"made flesh. It is the "two sticks made one", the Headstone and Capstone, Judah(sceptre) and Joseph(Shiloh)"=The sceptre will not LEAVE Judah UNTIL Shiloh comes"(Gen. 49).

In it's double circular type in the double rim of the Bible Wheel (also Sea) it is the twin bracelets of Rebekah, Joseph's signet ring, the double rainbow, the double fruitfulness.

It IS the Treasury of the Glorious Rest, the fullfillment of Joseph's new name given to him at his wedding and commissioning. Joseph's coat of many colors which was dipped in blood(as the SECOND dove), has now become a double rainbow; his "cloven" or divided "hooves" become the four hooves of the White Horse in Rev. 19:11 , the rider's robe is dipped in blood to show what part of the TWO part Levitical sacrifice for Atonement is about to be fulfilled. Of course it is the SECOND dove, which has been dipped in the blood of the first, and released LIVING into an open FIELD (world)

CHRIST IN THE BRIDE, EMERGES AS THE WHITE HORSE OF REV. 19:11

The White Horse is a type of the hippocampus gland in the brain, which is shaped like a white sea horse with the temporal HORN of the lateral ventrical. the "horn" of Joseph

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocampus

His eyes are like blazing fire and on His Head are MANY crowns. His name is the WORD OF GOD. Behind Him
and following Him, are the armies of Heaven wearing linen WHITE AND CLEAN, also "riding" white horses. ( they have received the white stone with a NEW name, which was first rolled away from the entrance of their "tomb" or prison where they had been with the Baker and the Butler.)

Judah's bow has been bent and then filled with the ARROW (Et Kol) of Ephraim (double fruitfulness) and goes forth, undivided around a joined or folded rim. Boaz now places the 46 /6 measures of Barley (first fruits) in Ruth's "vail". It is the consumation.

THE DONKEY HAS HAD IT'S NECK BROKEN (HUNG)

They are no longer donkeys obviously; no longer a "mixture". Each one has the ability now to "reproduce" themselves, as a seahorse does.
The two "heads" of the Baker and Butler have been LIFTED UP, the Baker has been "hanged" and the Butler has been restored to his former position.
The Feast of Phaoroh is about to begin for His servants. It is being revealed first in the SECOND heaven (mind/womb) at the MIDWAY point or MIDST, which has been purified of all evil.
It is at the 3.5 or in the FOURTH mile MIDWAY mark in the Galilee(circuit) , the 4th day of MIDWAY of the Feast of Tabernacles.
It is the midst of the candlesticks.
It is the utter fulfillment of Jesus death at Golgotha between the midst of the thieves.
The 4th day raising of Lazarus foreshadows it. 4 is the number of God's work in creation. The 4 is the dalet or door. It's root..dalal, holds the concept of the "hanging" of the baker (also typified by Haman, Judas, the donkey)

The axe head has swum to the top, beheading the Baker on the way down.


JOSEPH'S SHEAF NOW STANDS ERECT

An Angel now STANDS (as Joseph's sheaf stands up) in the MIDST of the Sun and calls to all the FOWLS FLYING IN MID-AIR: COME AND GATHER TO THE GREAT SUPPER OF GOD, THAT YOU MIGHT EAT THE FLESH OF KINGS, GENERALS AND MIGHTY MEN, OF HORSES AND THEIR RIDERS, AND THE FLESH OF ALL PEOPLE, FREE AND SLAVE, SMALL AND GREAT.

2 Cor. 10...We are NOW able to deal with the "disobedience of others", now that OUR OBEDIENCE HAS BEEN MADE COMPLETE.(having cast the vain imaginations down, taking them captive to the obedience of Christ)
Adam's inheritance is restored...the dominion over the earth, the fouls of the air, and every living thing that "creepeth upon the earth". Our Kinsman Redeemer has redeemed us fully and utterly.


THE SCEPTRE HAS DEPARTED FROM JUDAH...SHILOH NOW "COMES"

We now turn to our "brothers" as Joseph, as their Kinsman Redeemer.(or Goel)
The fallen Tabernacle of David has been raised.
There is no outer court or Holy Place in David's Tabernacle. It has been pulled " in and through" the Holies of Holies .
our "virgin" subconcious mind /(hippocampus/white horse) has been consumated with our circumcized heart, and we are individually and collectively, walking out the meaning of Joseph's NEW name.zaphnath paaneah..The Treasury of the Glorious Rest.

(This is how I see it all Gil.(even though you didn't ask me 8:@) I think it is a valid interpretation because it cross references very tightly with all the other types and shadows in scripture, in many numerous ways. As far as I can see...there is a very strong "bone structure" under all of this. I've been investigating it for a long time now...and it only grows in depth. I'm just not clever enough to have manufactured it on so many levels and if by chance I have, which is impossible...well, I'm having a heck of a time doing it:-))

[gilgal]

Take a look at the passages from the Gesenius' Lexicon where Galilee is mentioned.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H1551&t=KJV
1Kings 6:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Ki&c=6&v=34&t=KJV#conc/34)
Ezekiel 41:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Eze&c=41&v=24&t=KJV#conc/24) - I noticed the word deleth is mentioned 5 times in this one verse.
Esther 1:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Est&c=1&v=6&t=KJV#conc/6)
Song of Solomon 5:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Sgs&c=5&v=14&t=KJV#conc/14)

The word Galilee in the King James:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=galilee&t=KJV

My point is I'm trying to understand the meaning of the name. Why, for example a sea would be named Galilee?

[kathryn]

Gil...please read my post above. It should explain the Galilee. the name means CIRCUIT (as in circle, WHEEL...GILGAL) I know it's long, but I think it's pretty self explanatory.

[kathryn]

heh...and I KNOW it doesn't seem like a subject any man would relish:rolleyes: Don't roll away from me ok?:winking0071:

[Bob May]

Bob:

The only freedom is imputed righteousness and the knowing that it applies to us. That is the Grace and Truth that Jesus brought.


Yes Bob..I agree...but I would take it one step farther. The Law is also a prophecy of how we will be when we move from being imputed or covered with righteousness, to being "infused" with righteousness,( when we have gone through the purification process of the Baptism of Fire). ie:
we WILL love God with all our heart and mind
we WILL love our neighbours as we love ourselves.
we WILL not steal, lie, etc etc.
When Christ is fully moving in and through us, we are truly free because we no longer have the dual natures, carnal and divine warring within us.

I agree completely. The law is a covenant made up of promises and prophecies. Jesus said the law and the prophets prophecied until John.
The law of circumcision is also a covenant. You shall be circumcised throughout your generations. These are the generations from Abraham to Christ.
Jesus also gave a commandment when he met the apostles and began his ministry. Follow me. In another place he mentioned those who would follow him in the regeneration.
My point above is that the comdemnation of those believers taking communion
is because of not realizing that they are under grace.
That is because they aren't taught that they are under grace. And that is because the teachers that are teaching them don't know it.

When we begin to be aware that God no longer holds sin against us we begin to see that of ourselves we are nothing. We are not able to make ourselves righteous so the only "worthiness" available to mankind is because of the cross. This and only this leads us to the awareness that we are growing into sons of God.
When Jesus told t e Apostles to follow him they had no choice. It was as if he said let there be light. Same goes for the ten commandments. You shall not is future. Same goes for You shall be circumcised throughout your generations.
Paul said as you were called remain therein. By faith through Grace is how we were called.

Mr 11:19 And when even was come, he went out of the city.
Mr 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

The mountain Jesus was referring to was the hill upon which Jerusalem was built. He said THIS MOUNTAIN would be cast into the sea. If we believe and have "shall have not doubt in our heart,.." we shall have have whatsoever we say.
This is the prerequisite. To cast the mountain into the sea. The Mountain he is referring to is The Law.

If we keep going in and out of that city, under the law, under grace we are not going to get to the place of having whatsoever we say. Coming to the full awareness of the sons of God.

Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

Heb 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

We have been given a seed to nurture which is an awareness of the Grace given to us. It will grow into a tree of life that grows in the continuing city that we do seek.
It is not nurtured by going in and out the city of the law. That is a mixture of our own efforts with the gift that we have been given. That is cause and effect that is the knowledge of good and evil and the fruit (outcome) is death.

Ps 78:70 He chose David also his servant, and took him from the sheepfolds:
Ps 78:71 From following the ewes great with young he brought him to feed Jacob his people, and Israel his inheritance. Ps 78:72 So he fed them according to the integrity of his heart; and guided them by the skilfulness of his hands.

We are fed outside the sheepfold by the integrety of David's heart. What is it that David's heart (midst), as one of the geneology of Christ signify?

Ps 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

David had an awareness of what Grace was. His sins were not counted against him.
Interestingly enough, when Jesus met Nathanael he referred to him in this same phrasing. "An Israelite in whom there is no guile." And then promised him right there and then that he would see angels ascending and descending etc.,,

This is the baptism of air. This is the Pentecost. This is the inheritance. This is the Coat of Many Colors.

It all hinges on the need to keep and nurture that awareness of Grace. It is not up to us. It is not dependent on our efforts, only our belief in the promises we have recieved and those to come.
Too many believe and then are taken into some back room at some church and taught what they must "DO", now that they are believers.
It's a damn shame.

[Bob May]

Hi Kathryn and all,

The two "heads" of the Baker and Butler have been LIFTED UP, the Baker has been "hanged" and the Butler has been restored to his former position.
The Feast of Phaoroh is about to begin for His servants. It is all being revealed first in the SECOND heaven (mind/womb) at the MIDWAY point or MIDST, which has been purified of all evil. It is at the 3.5 or in the FOURTH mile mark in the Galilee(circuit) or the midst, the 4th day of the Feast of Tabernacles or the middle, the midst of the "candlesticks". It is the portrays the fullfillment of the cutting of the covenant, where ONE animal was cut in half and a smoking pot/torch passed between the middle. It is the utter fulfillment of Jesus death at Golgotha between the midst of the thieves.
The 4th day raising of Lazarus is a picture of this. 4 is the number of God's work in creation. The 4 is the dalet or door. It's root..dalal, holds the concept of the "hanging" of the baker (also typified by Haman, Judas, the donkey

Re 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Re 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Re 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Re 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Re 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Re 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/Tree_of_life_wk_03.jpg
http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/03.gif

The verse quoted above is the exact image of the Empress card of the Tarot. She is pregnant and has the twelve stars on her head.
It sits astride the Abyss on the third path. This is Daath or Knowledge which is related in the human body by the nape of the neck. The letter asigned to this card is Daleth Door.
This shows some connections that should add weight to a lot of what you are connecting here. I believe it is a picture of Christ being born in us.
To come to the end of ourselves is to reach Daath in a matter of speaking.
Jesus went back to where he came from (the Father) which is above that Abyss.

Also you have been speaking about Gilgal (rolling). This is the same definition as would fit Meditation. Rolling ideas through your mind and watching them fit together as opposed to using logic.
The Crucifixion is a perfect picture of what is called the "Point" meditation in the Western Mystic schools of thought. In the East it is known as the "Thousand Petaled Lotus."
It is the practice of putting your consciousness above the head at the point directly above the spine. This is the exact picture of Christ on the cross.
Hovering above the place of the skull, (Golgotha.)
It gives new meaning to the words "follow me" and "take up our cross and follow him."
Most Christians do not know about meditation. They tend to not teach it, and yet the bible clearly teaches it. "Be still and know that I am God..."
That particular meditation is done to bring on the Kundalini experience which is also known as the Serpent Fire. I believe it is also the Baptism of Fire.
What you have been referring to as the Hypocampus gland, I believe is known as the the Pineal gland also. It is directly connected to the highest chakra called the crown. It is above the head just as the Sephirah known as Kether is above the head. Just as Jesus was just above Golgotha at the crucifixion.
This is where we die to those last traces of being sons of Adam are cleansed and where Jacob stops supplanting Israel.

Ge 45:27 And they told him all the words of Joseph, which he had said unto them: and when he saw the wagons which Joseph had sent to carry him, the spirit of Jacob their father revived:
Ge 45:28 And Israel said, It is enough; Joseph my son is yet alive: I will go and see him before I die.

Israel, as shown here, is the spirit of Jacob. We have a spiritual experience or realization and we are Israel (favor with God) then we go back to being Jacob. (Seeking after God)
To die to ourselves is to stop the back and forth. That is the following of Jesus to our own cross.

[gilgal]

heh...and I KNOW it doesn't seem like a subject any man would relish:rolleyes: Don't roll away from me ok?:winking0071:
Oh come on Kathryn. I wish you could break things down, put titles, highlights, bold words. I can't read long texts.

But as it was said Zola Levitt wrote about the biblical feasts' relation to the stages of pregnancy.

Human Baby Gestation - Feasts of the Lord

- Author Unknown


Zola Levitt discovered an amazing correlation between the Feasts of the Lord and the gestation of a human baby, from conception to birth. While preparing for writing a book for new parents, Zola contacted a gynecologist for some help in understanding gestation. During that session, the gynecologist showed him a series of pictures, pointed to the first one (an egg and a sperm) and said, "On the fourteenth day of the first month, the egg appears." The statement struck a chord in his Jewish mind because that was the date of Passover. He remembered the roasted egg on his family table every Passover. Now, for the first time, he knew what it meant! Not wanting to lead the gynecologist off from the subject at hand, he didn’t say anything, but continued to listen.

The gynecologist continued: "The egg must be fertilized within 24 hours, or it will pass on." This reminded Zola of the Feast of Unleavened Bread and the seed or grain that "fell into the ground and died" in order to produce a harvest, the firstfruits of which was presented to God.

Next, the gynecologist said, "Within two to six days, the fertilized egg attaches itself to the wall of the womb and begins to grow." And, sure enough, the Jewish evangelist thought, "The Feast of Firstfruits is observed anywhere from two to six days after Passover!"

Next, he was shown a photo of an embryo showing arms, hands, fingers, legs, feet, toes, a head, eyes, etc. The caption said, "Fifty days." The gynecologist continued, "Around the fiftieth day, the embryo takes on the form of a human being. Until then, we don’t know if we have a duck or a tadpole." Zola thought, "That’s Pentecost!"

The next picture showed the embryo at seven months. The gynecologist said, "On the first day of the seventh month, the baby’s hearing is developed. For the first time, it can hear and distinguish sounds outside the womb." Zola knew that was the date for the Feast of Trumpets.

The gynecologist continued, "On the tenth day of the seventh month, the hemoglobin of the blood changes from that of the mother, to a self-sustaining baby." Zola thought, "That’s the Day of Atonement, when the blood was taken into the Holy of holies!"

Next, the gynecologist said, "On the fifteenth day of the seventh month, the lungs become fully developed. If born before then, the baby would have a hard time breathing." And Zola thought, "That’s the festival of Tabernacles, a time of celebrating the Temple, home of the Shekinah glory or Spirit of God." In the New Testament, the Greek term pneuma, normally translated as "breath," is applied to the "Holy Spirit."

Birth takes place on the tenth day of the ninth month. Eight days after birth, in Torah-observant families, a son is circumcised. Zola noted that the eight days of Hanukkah are celebrated right on schedule, nine months and ten days after Passover.

No human being could have understood the gestation period 3,500 years ago. The establishment of the Feasts of the Lord was given to Moses by Yahweh Himself. Its correlation with the human gestation period is not only remarkable; it proves ‘Intelligent Design." It proves the existence of an intelligence beyond this world. It proves that there is a Creator God that guides the affairs of man.
http://institutointerglobal.org/themes-in-english/247-christianity/1410-human-baby-gestation-feasts-of-the-lord

[kathryn]

Thanks. I've read this before..but maybe others haven't.
I know what you mean about the long text. I usually try to keep them short. Do you read books?

[duxrow]

Thanks gilgal, that's the one. Might be the reason I was inspired to write this poem about the Egg..
Consider the Egg

Consider, if you will, the egg: and how it's good to eat,
whether sunnyside or scrambled, it surely is a treat...
Hard-boiling it will keep it from making such a mess,
and everybody knows you can't return it to the nest.

Consider, if you will, the egg: and its astounding age,
Only three weeks from creation, it begins the chicken stage!
First it must escape the plate, and other gruesome deadly fate,
But victory is very sweet to eggs which have no hands or feet.

Consider, if you will, the egg: and how it's like a seed,
With all that gooey mess inside becoming a new breed.
The yolk and white together forming fuzzy little chicks,
So kids the world wide over can rejoice and get their kicks.

But only if the Rooster has equipped the egg for life,
Otherwise the egg is only fit for fork and knife.

Consider, if you will, the egg: in all its rounded glory,
but if the egg is on your face, that's quite another story.
The blood of Christ is offered: eternal life is true,
Read all about it in the Bible, or get prepared to rue...


The bird analogies in Ps91 (also NT) had something to do with it too, doncha think?

[gilgal]

Thanks. I've read this before..but maybe others haven't.
I know what you mean about the long text. I usually try to keep them short. Do you read books?
Not as much as I used to.

[kathryn]

Thanks Duxrow! That's great! :thumb:

[kathryn]

GILGAL: Oh come on Kathryn, I wish you could break things down, put titles , highlights, bold words. I can't read long texts

Good Morning Gil....I went back and put BOLD titles in my post #74. If they don't grab 'ya , nothing will :D Let me know if I've been successful:rolleyes:

It is a NEW interpretation of the book of Revelation of Jesus Christ, revealing Him in His Fierce and Glorious Bride role, showing her "birth" through the Galilee. I do believe it has as much weight as anything else I have read so far. :p

[kathryn]

Just wanted to mention, for those who did plow through my post #74, before I put in the titles, I have been editing the text and hopefully clarifying some of it further. I do feel it is an important perspective on the Revelation of Christ in His Bride and if it is, it will no doubt need some chipping and polishing

[kathryn]

Also..any additions I make over the next few days, will be in blue.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Just wanted to mention, for those who did plow through my post #74, before I put in the titles, I have been editing the text and hopefully clarifying some of it further. I do feel it is an important perspective on the Revelation of Christ in His Bride and if it is, it will no doubt need some chipping and polishing
It's good that you are reworking it. I always need to remember that less is more. You are dealing with a lot of concepts that don't immediately leap out as "intuitively obvious" to me.

[kathryn]

It's good that you are reworking it. I always need to remember that less is more. You are dealing with a lot of concepts that don't immediately leap out as "intuitively obvious" to me.

Yes...less is more:D I normally try to do this, but it was something that I couldn't figure out how to present in pieces. Particularly on the forum, when numerous posts can bury it, before you've taken your next breath. I am not going to add anything of length. In fact , I believe it's ok now..heh...but never say never:winking0071:
Ps..I tried to take the "bold" off, but can't. didn't mean to shout.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Yes...less is more:D I normally try to do this, but it was something that I couldn't figure out how to present in pieces. Particularly on the forum, when numerous posts can bury it, before you've taken your next breath. I am not going to add anything of length. In fact , I believe it's ok now..heh...but never say never:winking0071:
Ps..I tried to take the "bold" off, but can't. didn't mean to shout.

Ah yes .. the problem of buried posts. It happens so quick! That's one reason to have a personal blog. If you post something outrageously wonderful here, you can copy and post it on your own blog so it doesn't get lost as quickly.

But think about how much information is being entered into the internet every day. People are typing messages into millions of blogs, news sites, and forums as well as Facebook and Twitter. And then there are video sites like YouTube with millions of users. So much information! What a time to be alive! And just think of what could arise out of this wild frothing sea of ideas. It's really cool to think about it. It is bringing totalitarian regimes to their knees, opening minds, expanding horizons ... limitless!

And here we are, doing our small part ... I'm glad you are here adding your color to our palette.

Richard

PS: If the bold gets stuck on, make sure you have it all highlighted, and then toggle the bold on and off again. Sometimes it gets "stuck."

[gilgal]

I read part of it and feel that you need to break it down. There's too much of going in other scriptures. I don't understand, for example what the white horse has to do with the brain?

This should be a thread of it's own with each post being only a part of this subject.

[kathryn]

I read part of it and feel that you need to break it down. There's too much of going in other scriptures. I don't understand, for example what the white horse has to do with the brain?

This should be a thread of it's own with each post being only a part of this subject.



I did use alot of types Gil, because I wanted to let scripture speak for itself, rather than give an opinion. I'd rather play "conductor" than "composer". I realize it was alot. I get pretty exited when I see connections.

I thought I explained enough about the white horse. I make this mistake often. I'll try again.

This whole refining process we're going through as the Bride, is about the renewal of the mind (and circumcision of the heart , which overlaps the mind) When the "2nd" day began, and mankind was about to enter the age of Grace, the voice in the wilderness was: CHANGE YOUR MIND (repent)! After the Cross, we were given the downpayment (ONLY the downpayment) to allow us to begin this process.

You will find that most, if not all, of the types and shadows /symbolism in scripture speak of the mind in some aspect. The White Horse in Rev. 19:11 is, I believe, a symbol of the hippocampus in the brain. It is white and shaped like a sea horse. The book of Romans states that ALL of creation witnesses to the will, purpose and character of God. The sea horse is a very unusual creature and has much to reveal to us. If you read the discription in the link I sent, it will show you the function it plays in our thinking process.

2 Corinthians chapter 10 describes how we are to renew our minds in order to function in the Mind of Christ. It is within us, but we can only access a part of it, because the "man of sin" or the carnal man, still has mindsets that need to be cast down. This is the process that brings us into Light and Life. Satan can only hide behind a lie and once they're gone...he is "cast down".

The entrance of the White Horse in Rev. 19:11 is a picture of the Bride at the completion of this process and is walking in the full MInd of Christ.

The body is used in scripture as an example of a valid "witness" in creation, to demonstrate God's will, purpose and character. The temple and tabernacle is given as well. The study of both demonstrate that the Holy of Holies is the "womb" of the virgin Bride. More specifically, it is the sub-conscious mind. Scripture states that we must become a "child" in order to enter the Kingdom. This is because a young child reasons deductively, like the subconscious mind. You can tell a young child anything and they will believe it. Everything they see will be interpreted from what you have told them.
The conscious mind reasons inductively and the carnal mind has seriously dis-abled the child.

The type and shadow illustrating the Bride's consummation, is the High Priest entering "her" through the Holy of Holies (womb) on the Day of Atonement. This of course is a picture of Christ, but in the illustration of the body it is the male organ. This is why scripture says the heart must be circumcised. The heart/ spirit is male, the mind/soul is female.(although they overlap)

The High Priest is fulfilling the Law when he is offering the sacrifice. In the body, the tablets of testimony (testes) are represented by the testicles. Women couldn't enter the Temple , not because they were inferior, but because it was representing the act of consummation between the Bridegroom and Bride. To do so would be against the Levitical Law forbidding two women to be intimate with each other.

The High Priest had to remain standing (or erect) in the Holy of Holies. Bells were sewn into his robe so that if he fell down, they could remove him.
In the body this represents an erection which happens when the organ is engorged with blood. Until the consummation, we have been covered in the Blood of Righteousness. When we have been consummated, we are Righteous .

In order for the Bride to be consummated, she must have fully consumed the blood and body of Christ. This can't happen until she has fully cast down all of "her" vain or carnal imaginations. So...you can see why the hippocampus or "white horse" plays such an important role in the process.

As I pointed out earlier, the church/Bride at Pentecost was only given the downpayment of the Holy Spirit. The reason for this, is so "she" could "make up her mind". It shouldn't suprise us, knowing ourselves as we do, why it is taking so long. The White Horse of Rev. 19:11 appears, when she has finally completed the refining process and SEES Him for the first time. ("we will be like Him , when we see Him as He is) She then comes up out of the wilderness, leaning on her Beloved. (song of solomon)

(I hope you're still awake and rolling. I tried to make it as short as I could:D)

[kathryn]

Gil..I forgot to mention an important aspect of the Sea Horse.
Water is symbolic of the realm of spirit.
It is the realm of both heaven and hades.
We are in the water or sea as we move through this refining process.
That's why the 153 (Sons of God) fish..are pulled out of the water.
The White Horse in Rev. 19:11 then, is represented by a SEA horse.

[Rose]

It is apparent that the structure of reality is ordered, and Order Demands Balance. The balance point of anything is a static non-growing condition, or equilibrium, but as we know the state of the universe is never in a balanced static condition, there is always a constant tug to pull that which is out of balance, back into balance…that very process of pulling back and forth causes a upward motion of growth, forming what I call the Triangular Principle (three points of a triangle: left-handed ray – upwards ray – right-handed ray). The very nature of the universe is composed of a positive/negative structure, which keeps it in a constant state of being fine-tuned…and that applies to every particle that makes up the cosmos.

This is the premise I use for stating the Bible is not the word of God, based on its foundation being constructed from the men/male bias, when we know that “God” by nature is neutral and therefore cannot be biased. Consequently, this is proven by its content being totally skewed, and biased toward the man/male and against the woman, creating an imbalance that is ultimately rectified by the teaching of Jesus, which swings the imbalance of the masculine oriented content of the Old Testament radically past the point of equilibrium in the New Testament. For the time period in which Jesus lived, his views on the equality of women and Gentiles went far beyond the norm for any society of his day…this is the reason I believe he was killed; fortunately his teachings live on in the Bible.

What was pulled to one extreme in the Old Testament is now rectified in the New….the masculine, powerful, warrior “god” Yahweh, is united with the feminine, gentle, mother “goddess” Mary, to bring forth balance and wholeness in the figure of Christ.


When the Bible is taken and rolled up to form a completed whole (the Bible Wheel), the manifestation of the Tri-Radiant Halo emerges to show that equality and balance is achieved. Its three rays symbolize the Triangular Principle (three points of a triangle: left-handed ray – upwards ray – right-handed ray) which indicates growth along with balance and order…thus with the completion of the Bible (the NT being added to the Old) we can see an equilibrium is obtained, and with the discovery of its ordered structure manifest in the Bible Wheel, one can see a pattern of growth exemplifying the Triangular Principle and the principle of Order Demands Balance.


Rose

[kathryn]

It is apparent that the structure of reality is ordered, and Order Demands Balance. The balance point of anything is a static non-growing condition, or equilibrium, but as we know the state of the universe is never in a balanced static condition, there is always a constant tug to pull that which is out of balance, back into balance…that very process of pulling back and forth causes a upward motion of growth, forming what I call the Triangular Principle (three points of a triangle: left-handed ray – upwards ray – right-handed ray). The very nature of the universe is composed of a positive/negative structure, which keeps it in a constant state of being fine-tuned…and that applies to every particle that makes up the cosmos.

This is the premise I use for stating the Bible is not the word of God, based on its foundation being constructed from the men/male bias, when we know that 'God' by nature is neutral and therefore cannot be biased. Consequently, this is proven by its content being totally skewed, and biased toward the man/male and against the woman, creating an imbalance that is ultimately rectified by the teaching of Jesus, which swings the imbalance of the masculine oriented content of the Old Testament radically past the point of equilibrium in the New Testament. For the time period in which Jesus lived, his views on the equality of women and Gentiles went far beyond the norm for any society of his day…this is the reason I believe he was killed; fortunately his teachings live on in the Bible.

When the Bible is taken and rolled up to form a completed whole (the Bible Wheel), the manifestation of the Tri-Radiant Halo emerges to show that equality and balance is achieved. Its three rays symbolize the Triangular Principle (three points of a triangle: left-handed ray – upwards ray – right-handed ray) which indicates growth along with balance and order…thus with the completion of the Bible (the NT being added to the Old) we can see an equilibrium is obtained, and with the discovery of its ordered structure manifest in the Bible Wheel, one can see a pattern of growth exemplifying the Triangular Principle and the principle of Order Demands Balance.


Rose

This is great Rose. I love being able to see a visual concept. Thanks!

[kathryn]

Hi Kathryn and all,

The two "heads" of the Baker and Butler have been LIFTED UP, the Baker has been "hanged" and the Butler has been restored to his former position.
The Feast of Phaoroh is about to begin for His servants. It is all being revealed first in the SECOND heaven (mind/womb) at the MIDWAY point or MIDST, which has been purified of all evil. It is at the 3.5 or in the FOURTH mile mark in the Galilee(circuit) or the midst, the 4th day of the Feast of Tabernacles or the middle, the midst of the "candlesticks". It is the portrays the fullfillment of the cutting of the covenant, where ONE animal was cut in half and a smoking pot/torch passed between the middle. It is the utter fulfillment of Jesus death at Golgotha between the midst of the thieves.
The 4th day raising of Lazarus is a picture of this. 4 is the number of God's work in creation. The 4 is the dalet or door. It's root..dalal, holds the concept of the "hanging" of the baker (also typified by Haman, Judas, the donkey

Re 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Re 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Re 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Re 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Re 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Re 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/Tree_of_life_wk_03.jpg
http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/BobMay2008/03.gif

The verse quoted above is the exact image of the Empress card of the Tarot. She is pregnant and has the twelve stars on her head.
It sits astride the Abyss on the third path. This is Daath or Knowledge which is related in the human body by the nape of the neck. The letter asigned to this card is Daleth Door.
This shows some connections that should add weight to a lot of what you are connecting here. I believe it is a picture of Christ being born in us.
To come to the end of ourselves is to reach Daath in a matter of speaking.
Jesus went back to where he came from (the Father) which is above that Abyss.

Also you have been speaking about Gilgal (rolling). This is the same definition as would fit Meditation. Rolling ideas through your mind and watching them fit together as opposed to using logic.
The Crucifixion is a perfect picture of what is called the "Point" meditation in the Western Mystic schools of thought. In the East it is known as the "Thousand Petaled Lotus."
It is the practice of putting your consciousness above the head at the point directly above the spine. This is the exact picture of Christ on the cross.
Hovering above the place of the skull, (Golgotha.)
It gives new meaning to the words "follow me" and "take up our cross and follow him."
Most Christians do not know about meditation. They tend to not teach it, and yet the bible clearly teaches it. "Be still and know that I am God..."
That particular meditation is done to bring on the Kundalini experience which is also known as the Serpent Fire. I believe it is also the Baptism of Fire.
What you have been referring to as the Hypocampus gland, I believe is known as the the Pineal gland also. It is directly connected to the highest chakra called the crown. It is above the head just as the Sephirah known as Kether is above the head. Just as Jesus was just above Golgotha at the crucifixion.
This is where we die to those last traces of being sons of Adam are cleansed and where Jacob stops supplanting Israel.

Ge 45:27 And they told him all the words of Joseph, which he had said unto them: and when he saw the wagons which Joseph had sent to carry him, the spirit of Jacob their father revived:
Ge 45:28 And Israel said, It is enough; Joseph my son is yet alive: I will go and see him before I die.

Israel, as shown here, is the spirit of Jacob. We have a spiritual experience or realization and we are Israel (favor with God) then we go back to being Jacob. (Seeking after God)
To die to ourselves is to stop the back and forth. That is the following of Jesus to our own cross.

Hi Bob,
Sorry for not replying to this sooner. I really appreciate your knowledge of mysticism in this.
Regarding the cross, while I was meditating on the Israelites crossing the Jordan, I realized that the crossing itself is the formation of a cross, with the Jordan and the Ark in its midst forming the vertical post with Jesus at the intersection of the two.
Also, I wanted to tell you something funny about the picture of the Empress card. The day you sent it, my husband had picked up the motor home we had just bought, from the former owners. Like any vehicle, I hadn't paid any attention to make; it was a triple E "Empress" with a "crown" over the "E".:lol:

PS...Have you ever noticed that the verse you sent, of the woman giving birth, is Rev. 12.5..the same age as Jesus when he was found in the Temple "going about His Father's business?(after going "missing") Did you happen to read my post on the other thread about 1/2?

[gilgal]

PS...Have you ever noticed that the verse you sent, of the woman giving birth, is Rev. 12.5..the same age as Jesus when he was found in the Temple "going about His Father's business?(after going "missing") Did you happen to read my post on the other thread about 1/2?
This is related to Revelation 12 where the child has been caught up to God's throne, Joash's (2Kings 11, 12th book) being hidden from Athaliah's massacre of the royal seed, and Jesus' staying behind in the temple.