View Full Version : What's the Difference?
I’m having a very difficult time seeing the difference between the pagans who offered their sons and daughters as a sacrifice to their god Molech, and the women, children and infants who were slain by the children of Israel on orders from their god Jehovah. In both cases we have a people who think that the god they worship requires the slaughter of innocent life. Jehovah calls the sacrifice of children to Molech an abomination, yet he commands that the Jews do the very same thing, only this time instead of being sacrificed to Molech they are sacrificed to Jehovah.
2Kin.23:10 And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.
Jer.32:34-35 But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it. And they built the high places of Baal, which arein the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
1Sam.15:2-3 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass…..8) And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.
Num.31:15 & 17 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?....Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
I think this is a very serious issue that needs to be looked at in great detail.
Rose
Rose, this is a very good topic one that needs an in depth examination. I have in the past thought the very same what would be the difference and why, but right now I've got to much going on in my head to stop and study it out. I hope in time I can join in and come to some kind of understanding.
Have a great day. :yo:
Rose, this is a very good topic one that needs an in depth examination. I have in the past thought the very same what would be the difference and why, but right now I've got to much going on in my head to stop and study it out. I hope in time I can join in and come to some kind of understanding.
Have a great day. :yo:
Thanks Beck...:signthankspin: I look forward to your participation.
Blessings,
Rose
I’m having a very difficult time seeing the difference between the pagans who offered their sons and daughters as a sacrifice to their god Molech, and the women, children and infants who were slain by the children of Israel on orders from their god Jehovah. In both cases we have a people who think that the god they worship requires the slaughter of innocent life. Jehovah calls the sacrifice of children to Molech an abomination, yet he commands that the Jews do the very same thing, only this time instead of being sacrificed to Molech they are sacrificed to Jehovah.
2Kin.23:10 And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.
Jer.32:34-35 But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it. And they built the high places of Baal, which arein the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
1Sam.15:2-3 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass…..8) And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.
Num.31:15 & 17 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?....Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
I think this is a very serious issue that needs to be looked at in great detail.
Rose
You are seeing from the human perspective whereas I am seeing from the creator pespective. The issue lies in "does the creator have the right to destroy his creation as deemed fit?". Does an artist have the right to destroy his painting if he finds it not to his liking? Yes of course, and he will redo it again and paint a better one. Same with the potter and the clay, it is better and more economical to destroy defective pots than to repair them and recycle the clay. Is the destruction of the whole earth with a flood in which millions died together with all living things on land worse than the killings of men women and children which you cited? God also see from the utilitarian point of view, destroy a small group of evil people than allow those evil people to live and propagate evil to those who are good, if not everyone will become evil. It's like allowing all the criminals in New York to do whatever they like until the whole population of New York becomes criminals and eventually it spreads and the whole of USA becomes criminals. It is therefore more effective and kinder to stop those criminals at the bud.
I have discussed this issue before using the analogy of the potter and the clay, and the robots and the robot-maker in my post on Good and Evil:
Hi Ron,
I don't know exactly what you are driving at. God is the potter, we are the clay. I use the same analogy in the modern sense, God is the robot maker, we are the robots. God created us from the dust of the Earth so that we could see and share the glory of God's creation. He will destroy whatever pots that are no good and retain those that are good. In this way, righteousness will grow. God being a Merciful and Forgiving God, hope that man after tasting all these consequences of their folly without God and when man finally realized their mistakes and repent of their sins, they will be forgiven and eternal life will be awarded to them to those who believe in Him.
Romans 9:20-22 (New International Version)
20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[a] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
Isaiath 45:8-10
8 "You heavens above, rain down righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness grow with it;
I, the LORD, have created it.
9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,
to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
'What are you making?'
Does your work say,
'He has no hands'?
10 Woe to him who says to his father,
'What have you begotten?'
or to his mother,
'What have you brought to birth?'
I am a bit concern about this thread...are we to talk back to God and quarrel with Him? Are we to call God unfair, merciless and evil? Remember His ways and thoughts are higher than us. Although I don't support killings and rapes, but let's trust what He was doing and it is definitely for the good of God's people. I am sure God knew what He was doing, after all He is the Creator and He have every right to do what He wants with His creation and judge us for what we have done.
Many Blessings.
I am a bit concern about this thread...are we to talk back to God and quarrel with Him? Are we to call God unfair, merciless and evil? Remember His ways and thoughts are higher than us. Although I don't support killings and rapes, but let's trust what He was doing and it is definitely for the good of God's people. I am sure God knew what He was doing, after all He is the Creator and He have every right to do what He wants with His creation and judge us for what we have done.
Many Blessings.
I think the real question is: are we really quarreling with God, or is it mans interpretation of what God says that we are quarreling with. How do we really know that God told Moses to kill those innocent people, or was it what Moses thought God said. Just because it is written in the Bible does not mean God said it.
The Bible is filled with historical errors,contradictions, and false facts, and just because that is what people believed and recorded in Scripture does not necessarily mean it came from the mouth of God as a command. It is when people blindly follow leaders without using their own judgment and reason that grave errors get propagated.....we can see this happening throughout history, the masses of people get controlled by leaders that promote their own twisted ideas. This is what seems to be the case with Moses in Numbers 31, he acted upon what he thought God commanded....not necessarily what God actually said.
If God is unchanging, then there is no way on one hand he can command the slaughter of innocent life, and on the other hand say turn the other cheek, pray for and bless your enemies.
Blessings,
Rose
Richard Amiel McGough
01-28-2011, 08:47 PM
You are seeing from the human perspective whereas I am seeing from the creator pespective.
Hey there Cheow,
I'm not sure you are aware of the implications of you statement. What human can claim to be looking from "God's perspective?" We can't do that because we are not God. You need to come back down here with us humans and discuss things from a human perspective. Your belief that you have "God's perspective" is not correct. You have a very human perspective based on your limited human interpretation of the Bible. That is a far cry from "God's perspective," is it not?
The issue lies in "does the creator have the right to destroy his creation as deemed fit?".
Yes, God can do as he pleases. But he cannot command folks to do wicked things and still claim to be a kind and just God. You can't have it both ways, or words lose their meaning. God was not merciful to the little children that he ordered to be killed for no fault of their own. This is why folks are not satisfied dismissing the murder that God commanded by merely asserting it to be the "right" of the creator. That answer is not satisfying.
I have discussed this issue before using the analogy of the potter and the clay, and the robots and the robot-maker in my post on Good and Evil:
Hi Ron,
I don't know exactly what you are driving at. God is the potter, we are the clay. I use the same analogy in the modern sense, God is the robot maker, we are the robots. God created us from the dust of the Earth so that we could see and share the glory of God's creation. He will destroy whatever pots that are no good and retain those that are good. In this way, righteousness will grow. God being a Merciful and Forgiving God, hope that man after tasting all these consequences of their folly without God and when man finally realized their mistakes and repent of their sins, they will be forgiven and eternal life will be awarded to them to those who believe in Him.
Romans 9:20-22 (New International Version)
20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[a] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
Isaiath 45:8-10
8 "You heavens above, rain down righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness grow with it;
I, the LORD, have created it.
9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,
to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
'What are you making?'
Does your work say,
'He has no hands'?
10 Woe to him who says to his father,
'What have you begotten?'
or to his mother,
'What have you brought to birth?'
I am a bit concern about this thread...are we to talk back to God and quarrel with Him? Are we to call God unfair, merciless and evil? Remember His ways and thoughts are higher than us. Although I don't support killings and rapes, but let's trust what He was doing and it is definitely for the good of God's people. I am sure God knew what He was doing, after all He is the Creator and He have every right to do what He wants with His creation and judge us for what we have done.
Many Blessings.
Your "robot" analogy is flawed. God does not only say that we are like a vessel made by a potter. He also said that we are like children and he the father. That changes everything. A father does not kill his children merely because they disobeyed. If you want to know God's attitude towards sinners, read the parable of the Prodigal Son.
Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. 21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
I don't see any of this as "talking back to God." We are questioning HUMAN TRADITIONS about God, not God himself!
All the best,
Richard
Here is another example of the status of women in the OT coming from the mouth of God, where he tells David that he would take away his wives (plural) and give them to his neighbors, thus declaring that women were considered property that could be taken from one and given to another at will. :eek:
2Sam.12:10-11 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
The list grows longer.....
Rose
Hey there Cheow,
I'm not sure you are aware of the implications of you statement. What human can claim to be looking from "God's perspective?" We can't do that because we are not God. You need to come back down here with us humans and discuss things from a human perspective. Your belief that you have "God's perspective" is not correct. You have a very human perspective based on your limited human interpretation of the Bible. That is a far cry from "God's perspective," is it not?
Yes, God can do as he pleases. But he cannot command folks to do wicked things and still claim to be a kind and just God. You can't have it both ways, or words lose their meaning. God was not merciful to the little children that he ordered to be killed for no fault of their own. This is why folks are not satisfied dismissing the murder that God commanded by merely asserting it to be the "right" of the creator. That answer is not satisfying.
Your "robot" analogy is flawed. God does not only say that we are like a vessel made by a potter. He also said that we are like children and he the father. That changes everything. A father does not kill his children merely because they disobeyed. If you want to know God's attitude towards sinners, read the parable of the Prodigal Son.
Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. 21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
I don't see any of this as "talking back to God." We are questioning HUMAN TRADITIONS about God, not God himself!
All the best,
Richard
Did you see the small "c" in "creator persepective"? When I say from "the creator perspective", I mean put yourself as the creator of this world...the plants, the animals etc., can you as a creator stop death or survival of the fittest or stop animals hunting other animals for food or eating plants for food because killings and death in human thought is deemed "evil"... Yet God said His creation is very good. What I am saying here is what we human think is bad or evil , God may think otherwise. Thus putting yourself as the creator god, you probably will probably need to implement survival of the fittest, animals hunting for food etc as part of your plan to ensure that all animals and plants is able to survive; this is known as ecology. To stop them from doing so is tantamount to eradicate all plants and animals from the face of the earth through starvation and over-population...that is even more "evil". Now supposed you are the creator god and you created humans and the humans that you created got more and more evil each day, what would you do RAM?...
My analogy of robots is based on this understanding that robot do not do evil unless the software in that robot is developed so. Animals are not known to do evil....they don't kill for greed, they don't lie, they don't cheat, they don't murder, they don't have adultery etc. They do kill but it's for food and for survival of the fittest. As such I see them as "robots" programmed by God to unable to do evil based on God's terms. However, humans are different, they are "programmed" to be able to know good and evil and to decide for themselves good or evil which is why we humans do cheat, lie, greed etc. and of course some humans are good..kind, charitable etc. To me humans seem to be robots that are "programmed" to do both good and evil, this is evident in the sense that all of us know what is good and what is evil. All humans thus have elements of both good and evil in their heart... some skewed towards evil, some skewed towards good.
Now back to the topic of the thread, how would one know the order of Moses to kill all but keep the virgins is based on his own orders or the order of God or the error of the scripts? If it was the order of Moses, why didn't God stopped it or punished Moses for such an evil order? Not to do so is taken as agreeing to such an act. I wonder if the enemies of God who were evil did the same things to the Israelites following Moses and now was "payback time". I was thinking, perhaps based on God's judgement using the Golden Rule, "Do unto others what you want others to do unto you" or "an eye for an eye", it may be justified to do so. I know it sounds harsh but it may be a deterrent to prevent more evil which even humans do such as death penalty for drug trafficking, murders etc. Well, God's way and thoughts are higher than ours. And God certainly knew what He was doing....or.... are we doubting God?
Many Blessings.
Howdy,
The God of Genesis became an Elohim. The male and female God who would be the God of the children of Israel. It was a dual monotheism that was One God.
God El spoke and the Earth/Land would form the Flesh man of her womb.( the dust of the earth).
The Spirit of the Flesh Man would give the Earth/Land a Spirit of her own.
The Spirit of Life would become the Spirit of the New Adam, Jesus Christ.
Both faces of Elohim would speak to man in the flesh throughout scripture.
The Spirits depicted as Good and Evil.
The Evil Spirit held her grip on the children of Israel and kept them in chains and slavery to hold them down to the Earth and mans domain.
It would be Moses who would make manifest the face of Mans Spirit to the children of Israel.
It would be Jesus Christ who would make manifest the Spirit of the God that is of Life.
The two faces of Man that be Good and Evil.
Gil
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