What is the Strong Delusion? Extraterrestrial Designers seeded belief in God

[Alfred Persson]

What is the Strong Delusion? Extraterrestrial Designers seeded belief in God

And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2Th 2:11-12 NKJ)

What precisely will the strong delusion lie propose? That Extraterrestrial scientists intelligently designed life on this planet and seeded belief in God. They will cite the explosion of life in the Cambrian fossils as their doing. Ancient history and holy books which record their visitations and technology are cited to "prove" they gave us God and belief in the human soul. Archaeological sites like Puma Punku seem to confirm past visitations. Added to this a verifiable UFO landing and universal "contactee phenomena" breaking out among even the most skeptical and you have the makings of a Great Falling Away from belief in God.

The argument for extraterrestrials is a false dilemma, Although God's angels use technology ( "The Spaceships of the Prophet Ezekiel",J.F. Blumrich), it does not follow their message was not from God precisely as the Bible says it is, BECAUSE Scripture reveals they use technology, it was we who failed to interpret the data correctly.

The fundamental premise of the big lie is extraterrestrial aliens exist apart from God---They do not.

For more on angels, their technology and the nature of reality itself, their Teleios and our Meros:

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?35156-The-wings-of-the-Great-Eagle-Rev-12-14-is-power-from-the-kingdoms-of-Babylon&p=1168031#poststop
http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?35156-The-wings-of-the-Great-Eagle-Rev-12-14-is-power-from-the-kingdoms-of-Babylon&p=1149451#poststop
http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?35156-The-wings-of-the-Great-Eagle-Rev-12-14-is-power-from-the-kingdoms-of-Babylon&p=1169646#poststop


The following summarizes the rapid fire events that will rapidly come to pass once the final eschatological week has begun.

A worldwide falling away from traditional beliefs in Deity must come first, so the "man of sin" can rise up in the Temple of God, which is the Church.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. (2Th 2:3-4 NKJ)


9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,

The arrival of the "Designers" will be according to energy of Satan, with all power, signs and wonders that are "lying" because they powerfully convince all to believe the lie, not because they aren't real.


10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2Th 2:10-12 NKJ)


Because men chose not to believe God's Word of Truth the Bible, He stops restraining the fallen angels from appearing once again in our sphere of existence, thus "sending" us Satan's hybrid human/angel seed who would rise and strike Christ in the heel (Gen 3:15). This is that Antichrist scripture predicted would come (1 Jn 2:18ff; 4:3ff; 2 Jo 1:7), an apostate Christian who betrays Christ like Judas, hence is called the "son of destruction" (2 Th 2:3; Jo 17:12).


He will ride like God upon the wing of an abomination, a Satanically energized craft desolating all who would oppose him (Da 9:27) by fire from heaven (Re 13:13), and men will say "who can make war against him" (Re 13:4).


27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." (Dan 9:27 NKJ) (see Keil, C. F., & Delitzsch, F. (2002). Commentary on the Old Testament. (Da 9:27). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson.


The hybid seed rose up as a Saviour the first part of the week, and makes a covenant with the world's religions, to bring about paradise on earth together with them.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (Dan 9:27 NKJ)


All the world's religions agree to follow him, they are called here "Mystery Babylon" or "Babylon the Great" because similar world wide rebellion first appeared in ancient Babylon (Gen 11:9), This is what is meant by "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons." All the worlds religions forsake their former beliefs, and practice spiritism, behaving as contactees in communion with demons.


Then the True God takes vengeance, putting it into the heart of world's rulers to destroy the now obsolete religions:

16 "And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
17 "For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. (Rev 17:16-17 NKJ)


All are ordered to accept the Mark of the beast. Hence the wilderness of Babylon no longer shields the Daughter of Zion, the Elect of God from harm (Re 12:1-6) so she is ordered to come out:

16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads,
17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. (Rev 13:16-17 NKJ)

4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
5 "For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
(Rev 18:4-5 NKJ)

For a time it is granted the power of God's people be smashed to bits, but then the end shall come:

7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished. (Dan 12:7 NKJ)


11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write:`Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."
16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
(Rev 14:11-16 NKJ)


These raptured meet their LORD in the air lest they become collateral damage, and the dead in Christ rise up just before them:

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
(1Th 4:15-18 NKJ)


51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Co 15:51-52 NKJ)

24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
25 "the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
26 "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 "And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. (Mar 13:24-27 NKJ)

This is that first resurrection, they will reign with Christ during His thousand-year kingdom on earth:


4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev 20:4-6 NKJ)



BUT BEFORE this, the end of the week shall come:

17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe."
19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs. (Rev 14:17-1 NKJ)


Billions survive the coming of Christ, and these are tested during the thousand year reign. Age and disease will be gone, but any who begin sinning, even if healthy as a child, will die:

20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them.
24 "It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the LORD. (Isa 65:20-25 NKJ)

At the end of the thousand years there will be many yet unsaved, Satan will once again lead them in rebellion against God. After this is crushed, Judgment Day for all will occur, and any not found in the Lamb's book of life, suffer the death from which there is no resurrection.

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

(Rev 20:7-1 NKJ)



Then New Jerusalem descends---God's dwells with man on earth:

2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
4 "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful." (Rev 21:2-5 NKJ)


God willing, I hope to expound these things fully at my own site, address yet unknown, its domain name will be:

strong-delusion.com


Please share this with others.

20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. (Rev 22:20-21 NKJ)


Until I set up my site you can find more on angels and their Telios in contrast to our MEROS, here:

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?35156-The-wings-of-the-Great-Eagle-Rev-12-14-is-power-from-the-kingdoms-of-Babylon

[Alfred Persson]

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(Rev 12:7-9 KJV)

After God casts these angels out, they land on earth pretending to be ufo aliens, claiming they seeded the Cambrian strata with life...and mankind with belief in God and the human soul...

The falling away is the entire earth believing the lie, it comes first so that the Antichrist can rise, and he won't be representing former religions, such as Christianity, he is the Christ of a new god, a god of forces, a new god unknown to mankind, and he will claim its power makes him God:

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. (2Th 2:3-4 NKJ)

36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. (Dan 11:36-39 KJV)

This is where alien ufos back the new world religion with their technology, they are the "god of forces".

At the beginning of the final eschatological week, there is war in heaven and Satan and crew are cast out. Then the Antichrist rises and for the first part of the week he makes a covenant with all the religions of the world, Babylon the Great, who agree to follow him because he is doing miracles, and apparently the alien ufos are with him.

That is when Babylon falls into total apostasy from God, to profess faith in the Antichrist as God, and they all become "contactees," having familiar spirits, communing with demons, the false prophets of the antichrist spirits

KJV 1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (1Ti 4:1 KJV)

KJV 1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (1Jo 4:1 KJV)

It is because Babylon has fallen and become the house of demons:

2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. (Rev 18:2 KJV)


So the great delusion is the message the "god of forces" will bring with him, when Satan's stars (fallen angels) are cast out of heaven, and land on earth---as ufo aliens claiming to be a race of scientists who seeded life on earth and gave it its belief in God and the human soul.

THAT is the falling away that affects Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism etc...they all see the aliens, and believe the earths religions are all obsolete...all sacrifice and offering to God ceases...the entire earth promises to follow the new gods whom their fathers did not know, the god of forces...the ufo aliens and their representative, the Antichrist, a human/angel hybrid possessed by the Devil.

They seek to change "times and laws", everything:

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (Dan 7:25 KJV)

But then the True God, jealous for His Name, will take them down:

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. (Dan 7:26-27 KJV)

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

I believe the 'strong delusion' or their delusions were referring to the delusions of the last generation of the unbelieving israelites in the first century. Compare Isaiah 66 and Deut 32 which both have first century context.

Isaiah 66.4.
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose [that] in which I delighted not..

Deut 32:
I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.

The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling [also] with the man of gray hairs

If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

"Their" is referring to those in judea of the first century who disbelieved or continued to place faith in the interpretations and leadership of their rabbi's. It is they who continually and perpetually hated, usurped and rejected the individualized love/plan of God in favor of their own corporal plans.

[Alfred Persson]

Someone will say "this is Bizarre."

But should I accept the usual view in the commentaries, that the last week of the 70 weeks, occurs centuries later, is that less bizarre?

I can't agree with the commentaries on the seventy weeks, the plain reading is these are 70 contiguous weeks segments of which are characterized by unique events.

24 Seventy weeks are determined (נֶחְתַּךְ 2852) upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Dan 9:24 KJV)


The 70 weeks are contiguous as these were "cut out" as a specific length of time, that is how they were "determined." They weren't "cut out" separately or in separate pieces.


26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: (Dan 9:26 KJV)

AFTER the 62 weeks, which is after the 7 = 70 weeks.

"And After", conjunctive preposition, its a segment AFTER those just listed.


The Messiah is cut off in the Seventieth week ("after" 7+62) and His Death ushered in the New Covenant which fulfilled all the goals listed in v. 24, "To finish the transgression (Rom 4:15), To make an end of sins (Rom 6:22; Heb 9:26)), To make reconciliation for iniquity (2 Cor 5:18), To bring in everlasting righteousness (Rom 3:21f), To seal up vision and prophecy (Luk 16:16; Mat. 5:17; Acts 10:43), And to anoint the Most Holy (Luk 4:18 cp Joh. 2:18ff)."

Therefore its fitting Christ have the entire 70th week all to Himself.


Verse division is not inspired, verse 26 should have ended with the advent of the New Covenant in Christ's blood.

So Dan 9:26a has the Messiah fulfilling all the goals of Dan 9:24 with His death. 26b refers to the Titus destroying the Temple in AD 70, and 26c the continuing desolation that culminated in the Jews being driven out of Palestine by Hadrian about AD 132.

While Dan 9:27 can be rendered with the personal pronoun "he" making it refer to the "prince who is to come," it is NOT required:

LXT Daniel 9:27 καὶ δυναστεύσει ἡ διαθήκη εἰς πολλούς (Dan 9:27 LXT)
LXE Daniel 9:27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation. (Dan 9:27 LXE)


BBE Daniel 9:27 And a strong order will be sent out against the great number for one week; and so for half of the week the offering and the meal offering will come to an end; and in its place will be an unclean thing causing fear; till the destruction which has been fixed is let loose on him who has made waste. (Dan 9:27 BBE)

Grammatically the pronoun could be left out.

The "prophetic telescoping" is NOT with the Temple in Jerusalem and a rebuilt Temple in the end time, because Gabriel separates 70 AD and the end time, inserting the "times of the Gentiles":

"And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luk 21:24 NKJ)

So we must look for a time period that contains the identifying 3 1/2 years, and that occurs after the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled:

NKJ Daniel 12:7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

NKJ Revelation 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days (Rev 12:6 NKJ)


Critically speaking, this view is parsimonous, conforming to the details of the text, while the commentaries, by separating the weeks, make it impossible the destruction of the temple, and Christ's advent, be in the same week.

Therefore I might characterize the "accepted views" on this, BIZARRE.



Gabriel keeps talking however, he continues prophesying about what happens after the 70 weeks, that the Temple will be destroyed, and later, the Jews led captive into all the nations.

Therefore the week in the book of Revelation, is NOT part of the 70 weeks, and it can be separated from them by thousands of years.

But do the commentaries exegete this critically...no, they all put the 70th week in the end time.

AND THAT IS BIZARRE, as Daniel's usage of weeks doesn't allow it:

If we study Daniel's use of "weeks" (7620 שָׁבוּעַ, lit., "sevens"), he clearly means contiguous weeks.

"Seven weeks" and "threescore and two weeks" are misleading if they don't refer to two units of time, one totaling 7 adjoining weeks, the other also 62 contiguous weeks.


Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks(7620), and threescore and two weeks(7620): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (KJV)


Here we see one week divided into segments where different events occur, but not implying these are separate in a group of more than one literal week:

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week(7620): and in the midst of the week(7620) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (KJV)


Daniels' mourning occurs in three weeks total, not three divided weeks in a longer period of time.

Dan 10:2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks(7620). (KJV)

Dan 10:3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks(7620) were fulfilled. (KJV)


Its impossible we divide these "weeks", they are contiguous as seen by Daniels' usage of "weeks."


It is expected Bible prophecy become clearer as we approach its fulfillment...

I submit to you, my interpretation fits scripture perfectly, and while it is different, its certainly no more BIZARRE than what went before it.


To ignore Satan's work in the world, the "mystery (secret) of lawlessness" inspiring rebellion against God's Word of truth, via spiritism (charismania, new age, ufo), to believe THOSE events are not predicted in God's Word of truth, is "bizarre", in contrast to my sound exposition of these things.


Yes, to people our age, they seem bizarre, but 80% of the public now believes there is something to UFOs...those of us who accept the Bible, are now the "fringe."


It should be recalled how inconsistent you are labeling this bizzare, when you fully accept angels as a race of beings who are not "terrestrial."

I argue the church has misunderstood the scriptures about angels, she has accepted incorrect Greek philosophical views about reality, that prevent her from seeing this correctly.

Scripture says there are two realms of existence, one is the MEROS (partial), the other the TELEIOS (complete) 1 Cor 13:10. These are alternate realities....and the inhabitants of both are physical...otherwise how could Jesus sit on His throne, physically, or Moses and Elijah and Enoch, be there also?

Consider the resurrection appearances of Christ, He enters and leaves our MEROS, at will:

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Act 1:9-11 KJV)

KJV John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
(Joh 20:19 KJV)

Christ didn't ooze through the locked door or walls like a spirit, He "stood in the midst", that is, appeared in our MEROS, physically.

The transfiguration wasn't a dream, it was a coming of the TELEIOS with power, intersecting our MEROS:

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. (Mar 9:1-4 KJV)


Clearly the idea angels are spirits (sometimes) in our realm, does not prevent they are physical in their realm and can be so in ours (Gen c. 18-19)...to say otherwise is to deny the teaching of scripture.

Therefore, that fallen angels might pretend to be ufo aliens, and proclaim God doesn't exist, is not a bizarre concept...in fact, given the data, it would be bizarre he not do it, given how well that would work for his Antichrist and his new religion...make all previous religions, obsolete as it were, in the minds of the unsaved.

But the elect won't be deceived.

KJV Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
(Mat 24:24 KJV)

[Alfred Persson]

I believe the 'strong delusion' or their delusions were referring to the delusions of the last generation of the unbelieving israelites in the first century. Compare Isaiah 66 and Deut 32 which both have first century context.

Isaiah 66.4.
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose [that] in which I delighted not..

Deut 32:
I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.

The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling [also] with the man of gray hairs

If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

"Their" is referring to those in judea of the first century who disbelieved or continued to place faith in the interpretations and leadership of their rabbi's. It is they who continually and perpetually hated, usurped and rejected the individualized love/plan of God in favor of their own corporal plans.

That doesn't fit the context of 2 Thessalonians, where two kinds of church are being contrasted...those that think Christ is their Lord (Mat 7:20ff), and those who prove He is by doing what the Bible teaches:

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[Paul's antithesis to those suffering the delusion, is the real Church]

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,
17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work. (2Th 2:9-17 NKJ)

The contrast between antichrists, and Christians, defines this as a "Christian thing," not Jewish. That's why the "temple of God" the antichrist rises up in, can't be the literal temple in Jerusalem...a Christian falling away has nothing to do with a Jewish temple:

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
(2Th 2:3-4 NKJ)

AND the antichrist is not proclaiming himself a Christian, he is against all religions, including Christianity. He is the leader of a new religion, following the ufo aliens. He seeks to change times and laws...but its clear Babylon the Great will be centered in Rome (the city of seven hills) and therefore his rise is "in the Temple of God" the church...and like Judas the son of perdition, he betrays Christ.

Notice the parallels to this with 1 Cor 13:16ff and Daniel 9:27, the defiler of the Temple, who thereby destroys it to God, is then destroyed by God:

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. (1Co 3:16-17 NKJ)

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." (Dan 9:27 NKJ)

However, the "wing of abominations" is a satanically powered "chariot" from which the Son of Perdition rains down fire from heaven on his enemies:

“on the wings of abomination he comes desolating.” עַל כָּנָף can, without ingenuity, be rendered in no other way than on wings. שִׁקּוּצִים signifies not acts of abomination, but objects of abomination, things causing abomination, and is constantly used of the heathen gods, idol-images, sacrifices to the gods, and other heathen abominations. The connection of שִׁקּוּצִים permits us, however, with Reichel, Ebrard, Kliefoth, and Kranichfeld, to think on nothing else than that wings (כָּנָף) are attributed to the שִׁקּוּצִים. The sing. כְּנַף does not oppose this, since it is often used collectively in a peculiar and figurative meaning; cf. e.g., בַּעַל כָּנָף, Prov. 1:17, with בַּעַל כְּנָפַיִם, Eccles. 10:20, the winged, the bird; and כְּנַף הָאָרֶץ (from the uttermost part of the earth), Isa. 24:16, is not different from כַּנְפֹות הָאָרֶץ, Job 37:3; 38:13, just as אֶבְרָה, wing, plumage, Ps. 91:4, Deut. 32:11, is found for אֶבְרֹות (wings), Ps. 68:14. But from such passages as Deut. 32:11, Ex. 19:4, and Ps. 18:11, we perceive the sense in which wings are attributed to the שִׁקּוּצִים, the idolatrous objects.82 In the first of these passages (Deut. 32:11), wings, the wings of an eagle, are attributed to God, because He is the power which raises up Israel, and lifting it up, and carrying it throughout its history, guides it over the earth. In P. 18 wings are attributed to the wind, because the wind is contemplated as the power which carries out the will of God throughout the kingdom of nature. “Thus in this passage wings are attributed to the שִׁקּוּצִים, idol-objects, and to idolatry with its abominations, because that shall be the power which lifts upwards the destroyer and desolater, carries him, and moves with him over the earth to lay waste” (Klief.).83

Keil, C. F., & Delitzsch, F. (2002). Commentary on the Old Testament. (Da 9:27). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson.

(Klief.).83
Similarly, and independently of Kliefoth, Kranichfeld also explains the words: “The powerful heathen enemy of God is here conceived of as carried on (עַל) these wings of the idol-abomination, like as the God of the theocracy is borne on the wings of the clouds, and on cherubim, who are His servants; cf. Ps. 18:11; 104:3.”

Keil, C. F., & Delitzsch, F. (2002). Commentary on the Old Testament. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson.

[Alfred Persson]

The locusts of Rev 9

As it is impossible humans see the "seal of God" on the foreheads of His people, the following cannot refer to human armament.


1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.
3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.
6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.
7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men.
8 They had hair like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth.
9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle.
10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon. (Rev 9:1-11 NKJ)

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
(Jud 1:6 NKJ)

These fallen angels released from the Abyss (ἄβυσσος) of Torment (Luk 8:31) are still bound (Jude 1:6) by God's will, that is the meaning of Locusts prohibited from eating the vegetation they voraciously crave (9:4), they are compelled to torment their own followers rather than the children of God they despise (cp 1 Sa 16:14; Acts 5:16; Isa 50:11).

The crowns indicate these fallen angels "Nephilim; fallen ones" (Gen 6:4) once reigned as kings in the antediluvian world and were contemporaries of the "sons of God" who were seduced by the women of men, effectively joining the satanic plot to produce a hybrid human-angel seed to war against the seed of the woman (Gen 3:15).. The long hair and lions teeth indicate they are extremely vicious and blood thirsty warriors who once feasted on human and animal blood (cp Gen 9:4-6). Their breastplates of iron symbolizes imperviousness, the sound of chariots and many horses their power to rip into and shred infantry. They stung their victims like scorpions, who hold their prey while their tail administers the tormenting poison.

Their ruler is the Devil "who would be The King"---incarnate in the hybrid human "son of perdition" (John 13:27; 17:12l 2 Th 2:3), that is the meaning of the Hebrew "Abaddon"---Destruction, the angel who Destroyed many only to be destroyed himself (Dan 9:27; Rev 20:10),. The symbolic name Apollyon confirms, it being a cryptic reference to emperors who claimed to be the Greek god Apollos incarnate.

These locust demons are bound to do God's will, while their king Satan helplessly watches, for five months. The limit implies these return to their torments in the Abyss after they have accomplished all God has commanded they do. No doubt this entire experience was additional torment to what they already suffer.

To sum up, this is not a reference to angelic or human technology, nor ufo aliens as their existence is only a strong delusion.


The horrible punishment of these spiritists should have compelled others to repentance, but it did not:

20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.
21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries1 or their sexual immorality or their thefts. (Rev 9:20-21 NKJ)

[Alfred Persson]

Rev 9:13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

"Horns" represent kingship (Dan 7-8), power to save (Ex 29:12) or destroy (Ex 21:14), "four" completeness (Rev 4:6-8), hence the voice sounding from the four horns of the altar before God symbolizes it has God's authority and everything in this vision is by God's decree, not the independent action of its actors.


14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."

Compare:

6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
(2Th 2:6-8 NKJ)


God unleashes the lying spirits that cause Babylon the Great to apostatize (fall) from all that is called God, to a new spiritistic religion of the antichrist. This kills them spiritually and physically.

NKJ Jeremiah 51:1 Thus says the LORD: "Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, Against those who dwell in Leb Kamai, A destroying wind. (Jer 51:1 NKJ)

The "Athbash" "Leb Kamai" is a cipher that reverses the order of spelling to indicate something more than Chaldea is meant, namely, "Babylon the Great."

The four angels are symbolic, not actual angels just as the four horses of the apocalypse are not actual horses, they symbolize what is being released will go out in every direction (Rev 6).

All not having God's name on their forehead (Rev 9:4; Mat 24:24; 2 Thess 2:13f) in Leb Kami Babylon the Great are the targets.

2 And I will send winnowers to Babylon, Who shall winnow her and empty her land. For in the day of doom They shall be against her all around.
3 Against her let the archer bend his bow, And lift himself up against her in his armor. Do not spare her young men; Utterly destroy all her army.
4 Thus the slain shall fall in the land of the Chaldeans, And those thrust through in her streets.
5 For Israel is not forsaken, nor Judah, By his God, the LORD of hosts, Though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel."
6 Flee from the midst of Babylon, And every one save his life! Do not be cut off in her iniquity, For this is the time of the LORD'S vengeance; He shall recompense her. (Jer 51:2-6 NKJ)


Verse 6 shows this occurs when God commands His people come out of Babylon:

4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
5 "For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
6 "Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.
7 "In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart,`I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.'
8 "Therefore her plagues will come in one day-- death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her. (Rev 18:4-8 NKJ)


15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind.

God decree is for this precise time, no more...no less, the scope of its destruction is limited "a third of mankind" is killed, not all.


16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.


"Two hundred million" (δισμυριάδες μυριάδων) understates their number, μυριάς ('ten thousand') designates an incalculable immensity, figurative of an innumerable, indefinite host (Gen. 24:60; Lev. 26:8; Num. 10:35[36]; Deut. 32:30; 33:2, 17; 1 Kgs. 18:7–8; 21:12[11]; Ps. 3:7[6]; Cant. 5:10; Sir. 47:6; Mic. 6:7; Dan. 7:10; in Ps. 90(91):7 LXX.


17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone.

This is a vision (ὅρασις) like Daniel's (4, 5, 8 etc), therefore these are symbols, not descriptions of actual objects. The horses are not technology, human or angelic...they symbolize an army.

These demon spirits are God's army of unholy myriads He sends to consume children of the Devil.

τοὺς καθημένους ἐπ᾽ αὐτῶν "those sitting (middle voice) on them" indicates the riders are affected by the action, not initiating it. God is in complete control, the demons are His helpless victims, they are now being forced to destroy their own followers.


All three colors of the breastplates and their phenomena occur in a volcano; hence, this is symbolic of hell. While breastplates of righteousness (Is 59:17; Eph 6:14) faith and love (1 Th 5:8) exist, these are breastplates of destruction...all killed by this demonic army are cast into the lowest hell to await judgment day.

Just as the heads of the tails injure (vs. 19), these "heads of lions" are ruthlessly efficient killing, "eager to tear...ambush" (Ps 17:12) to devour (1 Pet 5:8),

The "fire, smoke and brimstone" out of their mouths is the judgment of God against the slain (Rev 14:10)



18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed-- by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths.


Given the symbolic nature of this vision, "a third" symbolizes God's restraint, it could have been much worse.

19 For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.

This symbolizes all not consumed by the fire from their mouths, are killed by venom. This demonic killing horde is terrifyingly efficient, it kills those in front, and any it missed, as it passes through the ranks.


This isn't merely physical death, its spiritual also. These rise up in the Day of Christ only to be cast head long into the lake which burns with fire and sulphur.


20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.
21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts. (Rev 9:13-21 NKJ)

This confirms the connection is to Babylon the Great and its great spiritistic falling away from all previous beliefs in God, to follow the "god of forces" (Dan 11:38f) the demon spirits preached:

And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! (Rev 18:2 NKJ)

[Alfred Persson]

Rev 9:13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

"Horns" represent kingship (Dan 7-8), power to save (Ex 29:12) or destroy (Ex 21:14), "four" completeness (Rev 4:6-8), hence the voice sounding from the four horns of the altar before God symbolizes it has God's authority and everything in this vision is by God's decree, not the independent action of its actors.


14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."

Compare:

6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
(2Th 2:6-8 NKJ)


God unleashes the lying spirits that cause Babylon the Great to apostatize (fall) from all that is called God, to a new spiritistic religion of the antichrist. This kills them spiritually and physically.

NKJ Jeremiah 51:1 Thus says the LORD: "Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, Against those who dwell in Leb Kamai, A destroying wind. (Jer 51:1 NKJ)

The "Athbash" "Leb Kamai" is a cipher that reverses the order of spelling to indicate something more than Chaldea is meant, namely, "Babylon the Great."

The four angels are symbolic, not actual angels just as the four horses of the apocalypse are not actual horses, they symbolize what is being released will go out in every direction (Rev 6).

All not having God's name on their forehead (Rev 9:4; Mat 24:24; 2 Thess 2:13f) in Leb Kami Babylon the Great are the targets.

2 And I will send winnowers to Babylon, Who shall winnow her and empty her land. For in the day of doom They shall be against her all around.
3 Against her let the archer bend his bow, And lift himself up against her in his armor. Do not spare her young men; Utterly destroy all her army.
4 Thus the slain shall fall in the land of the Chaldeans, And those thrust through in her streets.
5 For Israel is not forsaken, nor Judah, By his God, the LORD of hosts, Though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel."
6 Flee from the midst of Babylon, And every one save his life! Do not be cut off in her iniquity, For this is the time of the LORD'S vengeance; He shall recompense her. (Jer 51:2-6 NKJ)


Verse 6 shows this occurs when God commands His people come out of Babylon:

4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
5 "For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
6 "Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.
7 "In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart,`I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.'
8 "Therefore her plagues will come in one day-- death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her. (Rev 18:4-8 NKJ)


15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind.

God decree is for this precise time, no more...no less, the scope of its destruction is limited "a third of mankind" is killed, not all.


16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.


"Two hundred million" (δισμυριάδες μυριάδων) understates their number, μυριάς ('ten thousand') designates an incalculable immensity, figurative of an innumerable, indefinite host (Gen. 24:60; Lev. 26:8; Num. 10:35[36]; Deut. 32:30; 33:2, 17; 1 Kgs. 18:7–8; 21:12[11]; Ps. 3:7[6]; Cant. 5:10; Sir. 47:6; Mic. 6:7; Dan. 7:10; in Ps. 90(91):7 LXX.


17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone.

This is a vision (ὅρασις) like Daniel's (4, 5, 8 etc), therefore these are symbols, not descriptions of actual objects. The horses are not technology, human or angelic...they symbolize an army.

These demon spirits are God's army of unholy myriads He sends to consume children of the Devil.

τοὺς καθημένους ἐπ᾽ αὐτῶν "those sitting (middle voice) on them" indicates the riders are affected by the action, not initiating it. God is in complete control, the demons are His helpless victims, they are now being forced to destroy their own followers.


All three colors of the breastplates and their phenomena occur in a volcano; hence, this is symbolic of hell. While breastplates of righteousness (Is 59:17; Eph 6:14) faith and love (1 Th 5:8) exist, these are breastplates of destruction...all killed by this demonic army are cast into the lowest hell to await judgment day.

Just as the heads of the tails injure (vs. 19), these "heads of lions" are ruthlessly efficient killing, "eager to tear...ambush" (Ps 17:12) to devour (1 Pet 5:8),

The "fire, smoke and brimstone" out of their mouths is the judgment of God against the slain (Rev 14:10)



18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed-- by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths.


Given the symbolic nature of this vision, "a third" symbolizes God's restraint, it could have been much worse.

19 For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.

This symbolizes all not consumed by the fire from their mouths, are killed by venom. This demonic killing horde is terrifyingly efficient, it kills those in front, and any it missed, as it passes through the ranks.


This isn't merely physical death, its spiritual also. These rise up in the Day of Christ only to be cast head long into the lake which burns with fire and sulphur.


20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.
21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts. (Rev 9:13-21 NKJ)

This confirms the connection is to Babylon the Great and its great spiritistic falling away from all previous beliefs in God, to follow the "god of forces" (Dan 11:38f) the demon spirits preached:

And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! (Rev 18:2 NKJ)


That the demons symbolized by the horse and rider are the mystery of lawlessness, that secret power inciting rebellion against God's Law, is seen in the symbol of the mouth and serpent tail having a head:

For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.
(Rev 9:19 NKJ)

Compare:

The elder and honorable, he is the head; The prophet who teaches lies, he is the tail.
(Isa 9:15 NKJ)

Out of their mouths come the lies of hell that destroy all who believe their message. While some suppose the "harm" is not unto death, that is contradicted giving both the same "power" which in this context, is the power to kill: "For their power [to kill] is in their mouth and in their tails."

Hence those not killed directly by their mouths, will die from the venomous lies they were injected with.

[Alfred Persson]

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. (Rev 16:13-14 NKJ)

This is a vision (ὅρασις Rev 9:17; Dan 8:16 cp 8:20), the unclean spirits are "like frogs", they aren't frogs nor will they look precisely like them. The likely frog meant here is was common in Egypt during Exodus (8:1-15), the Ptychadena mascareniensis, also known in English as the Mascarene rocket frog--- when disturbed, they leap into or away from the water, simultaneously expelling a jet of water from the bladder. Satanic power enabled Pharaoh's magicians to command these frogs (Ex 8:7).

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Ptychadena_mascareniensis.jpg

These unclean spirits like frogs are Fallen Angels pretending to be UFO aliens, performing great signs to mislead the kings of the earth into waging a war against God Himself just as they did to Pharaoh (Ex 7:22). This war is described in Rev. 19:11-21.

[gilgal]

The popular belief is that the strong delusion is an UFO invasion. But we know that propaganda is used in the media from televisions to radio and papers and politicians nowadays they constantly tell lies. So I take it that the strong delusion is propaganda in general.

How many lies are you ready to hear to be convinced that the media is not reliable? Do you still listen to the media?

[Alfred Persson]

The popular belief is that the strong delusion is an UFO invasion. But we know that propaganda is used in the media from televisions to radio and papers and politicians nowadays they constantly tell lies. So I take it that the strong delusion is propaganda in general.

How many lies are you ready to hear to be convinced that the media is not reliable? Do you still listen to the media?

Nope, don't believe the propaganda press at all.

[gilgal]

Nope, don't believe the propaganda press at all.
I feel sad that many Christians are carried away by this though.

[messianicdruid]

The argument for extraterrestrials is a false dilemma, Although God's angels use technology ("The Spaceships of the Prophet Ezekiel", J.F. Blumrich), it does not follow their message was not from God precisely as the Bible says it is, BECAUSE Scripture reveals they use technology, it was we who failed to interpret the data correctly. [ ie:including plain statements of hybridization ]

[B]The fundamental premise of the big lie is extraterrestrial aliens exist apart from God---They do not.

Will you believe that extraterrestials exist but angels that have rebelled against the Creator do not?


The innate understanding that all intelligent, rational people have, is that we are all human and as such whatever violates my human rights also violates your human rights. It doesn't get any simpler than that. All people share humanness and when your humanness is violated it is WRONG!

Maybe instead of calling it "innate" it should be called ingrained. Believing something because everyone else believes it is not working. As well, not believing in demons until they show up with new labels is not working either.

[David M]

Quote Originally Posted by Alfred Persson View Post
[b]The argument for extraterrestrials is a false dilemma, Although God's angels use technology ("The Spaceships of the Prophet Ezekiel", J.F. Blumrich), it does not follow their message was not from God precisely as the Bible says it is, BECAUSE Scripture reveals they use technology, it was we who failed to interpret the data correctly. [ ie:including plain statements of hybridization ]

The fundamental premise of the big lie is extraterrestrial aliens exist apart from God---They do not.
Will you believe that extraterrestials exist but angels that have rebelled against the Creator do not?

Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
The innate understanding that all intelligent, rational people have, is that we are all human and as such whatever violates my human rights also violates your human rights. It doesn't get any simpler than that. All people share humanness and when your humanness is violated it is WRONG!
Maybe instead of calling it "innate" it should be called ingrained. Believing something because everyone else believes it is not working. As well, not believing in demons until they show up with new labels is not working either.

We have enough confusion on this forum without mixing together the replies from different the threads. It helps to keep topics separate and keep to the topic.


David

[David M]

These unclean spirits like frogs are Fallen Angels pretending to be UFO aliens, performing great signs to mislead the kings of the earth into waging a war against God Himself just as they did to Pharaoh (Ex 7:22). This war is described in Rev. 19:11-21.
There is nothing in these verses to suggest (God's) Angels are fallen. The text uses the word "angel". We have to determine from the text, whether the word "angel" is human, or divine.

I am happy to accept in this case the angel is divine, though all the angel has to do is make a proclamation in the form of an invitation. In the figurative language used, we have to determine who the fowls or the air are in human terms.

Incidentally, having watched a programme on the TV a couple of nights ago, in which an animal sanctuary for saving vultures was shown, it is amazing to see how vultures respond to their human carers and bond with them. It was quite emotional to see. Vultures do a good job of cleaning up dead carcases. They have the digestive system to cope with harmful bacteria and disease that would kill any human and be harmful if left in the environment. Vultures do a good job for us.

(Rev 19:17) And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

There is nothing to suggest in this verse, that it is speaking of fallen Angels of God.


David

[messianicdruid]

There is nothing to suggest in this verse, that it is speaking of fallen Angels of God.

David

Maybe it is best to start at the beginning:

"When humankind began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of humankind were beautiful. Thus they took wives for themselves from any they chose. So the LORD said, "My spirit will not remain in mankind indefinitely, since they are mortal. They will remain for 120 more years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days (and also after this) when the sons of God were having sexual relations with the daughters of humankind, who gave birth to their children. They were the mighty heroes of old, the famous men. But the LORD saw that the wickedness of mankind had become great on the earth. Every inclination of the thoughts of their minds was only evil all the time. The LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and he was highly offended."

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Maybe it is best to start at the beginning:

"When humankind began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of humankind were beautiful. Thus they took wives for themselves from any they chose. So the LORD said, "My spirit will not remain in mankind indefinitely, since they are mortal. They will remain for 120 more years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days (and also after this) when the sons of God were having sexual relations with the daughters of humankind, who gave birth to their children. They were the mighty heroes of old, the famous men. But the LORD saw that the wickedness of mankind had become great on the earth. Every inclination of the thoughts of their minds was only evil all the time. The LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and he was highly offended."
It is true that Christians have taken that passage to refer to fallen angels, and Jude seems to confirm that interpretation. And the word "nephilim" does mean "fallen ones" so there is a lot of evidence for that point of view. But other Christians have rejected that interpretation. So how is anyone supposed to know what it really means?

[messianicdruid]

So how is anyone supposed to know what it really means?It says what it means and it means what it says.:thumb: The only reason this is an issue is because too many asked what it means before determining what it says.

The Kingdom of God is not a democracy.

"Christ compared the days of Noah to the days prior to His return. Are the actions which produced "giants," whatever they were, considered in this comparison? Certainly at no prior time of history have humans been able to "play God" with the genome as they do now. The rush to embrace the ghoulish possibilities of cloning and embryonic stem cell manipulation may be reminiscent of that long ago time. God's utter condemnation of that effort may help us evaluate modern experiments."

http://www.icr.org/article/540/316/

[Richard Amiel McGough]

It says what it means and it means what it says.:thumb: The only reason this is an issue is because too many asked what it means before determining what it says.

The Kingdom of God is not a democracy.

"Christ compared the days of Noah to the days prior to His return. Are the actions which produced "giants," whatever they were, considered in this comparison? Certainly at no prior time of history have humans been able to "play God" with the genome as they do now. The rush to embrace the ghoulish possibilities of cloning and embryonic stem cell manipulation may be reminiscent of that long ago time. God's utter condemnation of that effort may help us evaluate modern experiments."

http://www.icr.org/article/540/316/
Now that's funny! You went from "it says what it means" to modern genetic engineering in the space of three sentences! :lol:

I think you just demonstrated the reason for for all the confusion. It's the result of speculative ideas being read into an ancient ambiguous text.

[messianicdruid]

Now that's funny! You went from "it says what it means" to modern genetic engineering in the space of three sentences! :lol:

I am only providing hints {as was A. Persson}. DYODD

"When the Lord Jesus was describing the “end of days,” {Luke 17:26-30} the time just prior to His Second Coming, He drew a direct connection back to the days of Noah: the time just before the Great Flood. He mentioned that the people were involved with eating, drinking and marrying right up until the flood came. They were totally unaware of the coming judgment.

At first glance, there does not seem to be anything unusual about eating and drinking until all the Scriptures are studied about the time of Noah. The big picture shows this time period was full of violence and rebellion against God."

http://www.defendproclaimthefaith.org/DaysNoah.htm

The Ancient Aliens delusion is picking up its pace. They laughed at Noah for decades.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I am only providing hints {as was A. Persson}. DYODD

"When the Lord Jesus was describing the “end of days,” {Luke 17:26-30} the time just prior to His Second Coming, He drew a direct connection back to the days of Noah: the time just before the Great Flood. He mentioned that the people were involved with eating, drinking and marrying right up until the flood came. They were totally unaware of the coming judgment.

At first glance, there does not seem to be anything unusual about eating and drinking until all the Scriptures are studied about the time of Noah. The big picture shows this time period was full of violence and rebellion against God."

http://www.defendproclaimthefaith.org/DaysNoah.htm

The Ancient Aliens delusion is picking up its pace. They laughed at Noah for decades.
Yeah, but the whole concept is based on rejection of the fact that Jesus said the events would happen during the lifetime of his first century audience, and that they would be marked by the destruction of the Temple which happened in 70 AD. So the whole "second coming" teaching is entirely contrary to what the Bible actually teaches.

[messianicdruid]

Yeah, but the whole concept is based on rejection of the fact that Jesus said the events would happen during the lifetime of his first century audience, and that they would be marked by the destruction of the Temple which happened in 70 AD.

Do you believe this:

"Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near...Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen."

was written before 70AD?

Perhaps "coming with clouds" is something different from "the end";

"But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order {squadron}: the anointed firstfruits {at the beginning of the millennium}, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming {at the end of the millennium}. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign {from 70AD when the judaic system - OT - ended until the end of the millennium} till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death."

It seems certain that there has been no end to "all rule and all authority and power" and we know for certain the "last enemy" has not been destroyed.

My contention is that there are reoccuring fulfillments of certain prophecies kind of like echos, requiring a recognition of prophetic types. We see this for certain in Ahithophel, Judas and the modern church.

"In this conspiracy, Absalom sent for Ahithophel, who was David's counselor and friend (Psalm 41:9). Ahithophel came from Giloh, a town in the mountains of Judah (2 Samuel 15:12). Like Absalom, he was a Judahite and a prophetic type of Judas in the New Testament.

In the story, Absalom represents the chief priests who crucified Jesus, the Son of David, in order to usurp His throne. Ahithophel represents Judas, the friend who helped the chief priests in betraying Jesus. Without understanding this story and its prophetic significance, we cannot possibly understand the concept of the man of sin and son of perdition as Paul uses the terms in 2 Thessalonians 2."

http://gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/ffi-newsletter/ffi-2000/03-01-2000-the-second-coming-of-jesus-and-judas-part-3-the-betrayer/

The prophetic type of Noah's time would be massive corruption {infiltration by counterfeits} requiring a reset, echoed at the end of "this generation" and again just before the first resurrection.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Do you believe this:

"Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near...Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen."

was written before 70AD?

Perhaps "coming with clouds" is something different from "the end";

Futurists seem to think that a late date of Revelation (ca. 95 AD) is the "trump card" for their position. I see it as the opposite, because if Revelation is not referring to the events of 70 AD then it is demonstrably false, since it said that the events it predicted would happen "quickly" because "the time is near". And there is good evidence that Peter read Revelation, which would support the pre-70 AD (under the assumption that 1 Peter was written prior to that date. I presented this evidence in a thread called Did the Apostle Peter read the Book of Revelation? (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?666-Did-the-Apostle-Peter-read-the-Book-of-Revelation)

When I was a Christian, I became convinced that the Preterist view, though not perfect, was far and away the best fit for the data. I understood the Olivet Discourse as the Little Apocalypse that corresponded to the same events in the Big Apocalypse, aka, Book of Revelation. I laid out my interpretation in an article called The Synoptic Apocalypse (http://www.biblewheel.com/Theology/Olivet_Discourse.php).

I also was very impressed with how Revelation corresponds to the seven feasts. I explained this in a post called A Synopsis of Revelation (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?1774-Synopsis-of-the-Book-of-Revelation).

So what is the meaning of "coming on clouds"? From a Biblical perspective, that's a reference to the armies God used to judge Israel, just as in the OT.

Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

Jeremiah 4:13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled. 14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?



"But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order {squadron}: the anointed firstfruits {at the beginning of the millennium}, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming {at the end of the millennium}. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign {from 70AD when the judaic system - OT - ended until the end of the millennium} till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death."

It seems certain that there has been no end to "all rule and all authority and power" and we know for certain the "last enemy" has not been destroyed.

That passage is one of the more difficult to interpret in the Preterist system, but still, it presents no challenges like those caused by trying to force the Olivet Discourse to be part past and part future. That is simply impossible. I've debated many futurists on this forum over the years and they all failed to present a coherent, let alone cogent, case for their interpretations. They all had to quit when I exposed their errors and they refused to admit the truth. It was really quite frustrating - a hollow victory when the other side simply runs and hides.



My contention is that there are reoccuring fulfillments of certain prophecies kind of like echos, requiring a recognition of prophetic types. We see this for certain in Ahithophel, Judas and the modern church.

That's how you invent doctrines that are not actually taught in the Bible. You can't just make up predictions about the future to fit an speculative eschatology. For example, most Futurists say that Elijah is yet to come, directly contradicting the teaching of Christ. Malachi said that Elijah would come before two events:

1) The Messiah

2) The Great and Terrible Day of the Lord.

Christ said that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come, and if he was not then Jesus was not Messiah. And John the Baptist warned the Pharisees of the "wrath" that was to come down on their generation, so we have both prophecies fulfilled or falsified. There is no future "second coming of Elijah" predicted in Scripture. Everything points to a first century fulfillment or the conclusion that the Bible is false.



"In this conspiracy, Absalom sent for Ahithophel, who was David's counselor and friend (Psalm 41:9). Ahithophel came from Giloh, a town in the mountains of Judah (2 Samuel 15:12). Like Absalom, he was a Judahite and a prophetic type of Judas in the New Testament.

In the story, Absalom represents the chief priests who crucified Jesus, the Son of David, in order to usurp His throne. Ahithophel represents Judas, the friend who helped the chief priests in betraying Jesus. Without understanding this story and its prophetic significance, we cannot possibly understand the concept of the man of sin and son of perdition as Paul uses the terms in 2 Thessalonians 2."

http://gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/ffi-newsletter/ffi-2000/03-01-2000-the-second-coming-of-jesus-and-judas-part-3-the-betrayer/

The prophetic type of Noah's time would be massive corruption {infiltration by counterfeits} requiring a reset, echoed at the end of "this generation" and again just before the first resurrection.

I was always big on the study of prophetic types, but they are only useful if confirmed by the plain teaching of Scripture because there is no way for anyone to know if their interpretations are true or not, and there is no end to the number of interpretations that could be invented. Take a look at how the Catholics have interpreted the Ark with the Word of God in it as a Type of Mary, the Mother of God. They find that every bit as convincing as you find your typological interpretations. And so they do not help discerning between truth or falsehood, since everyone will see confirmations of their own biases in the "types" they can apply to the elements of the Bible.

[messianicdruid]

I was always big on the study of prophetic types, but they are only useful if confirmed by the plain teaching of Scripture because there is no way for anyone to know if their interpretations are true or not, and there is no end to the number of interpretations that could be invented.

There is plenty of plain teaching that shows that God teaches through cause and effect, and holds us accountable for our sins. If "the things written aforetime are written for our learning" they would be pretty useless without immediate prophetic types to illustrate what the Holy Spirit is talking about. Prophecy is not about making predictions but offering a warning, and when the events occur, helping us understand our place in the timeline. You might do well to study:

http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/books/secrets-of-time/

I studied Matthew 24 being completely fulfilled by 70 AD several years ago and have no problem with that. But the application of the whole of Revelations to those events is entirely new to me. The link you provided concerning the feast days in Revelations requires much more thought, on my part.

However, the first thing that comes to mind is chapter 18. I see no way for:

"For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies."

to have had dealings with Jerusalem in the manner described. Then you have the problem of the suddenness of the judgement:

"Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her." "Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come." "For in one hour so great riches is come to nought." "...for in one hour is she made desolate."

The last item mentioned as a trade good, "the souls {lives} of men" could not be an item of trade {collateral/surety for debt} until the invention of the Birth Certificate.

Babylon the Great is a worldwide system based on babylonian politics, economics and religion, certainly not limited to 40 years during the first century AD. Even if you could apply all of Revelation to 70AD, it would still serve as a type/antitype for what is happening right before our eyes.

[messianicdruid]

They find that every bit as convincing as you find your typological interpretations. And so they do not help discerning between truth or falsehood, since everyone will see confirmations of their own biases {idols?} in the "types" they can apply to the elements of the Bible.

"Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me. And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, these men have set up their idols {false concepts of God} in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity {lawlessness 1John 3:4} before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them? Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the Lord will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols; That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations. For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him by myself: And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the Lord. And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him; That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord God."

We must all be wary of our heart idols, and be ready to forsake them when discovered.

[sylvius]

Futurists seem to think that a late date of Revelation (ca. 95 AD) is the "trump card" for their position. I see it as the opposite, because if Revelation is not referring to the events of 70 AD then it is demonstrably false, since it said that the events it predicted would happen "quickly" because "the time is near".

Hebrew "karov" does denote both "soon" and "near" -- i.e. "close" both in time and space

to be found in Deuteronomy 30:14,
כִּי קָרוֹב אֵלֶיךָ הַדָּבָר מְאֹד בְּפִיךָ וּבִלְבָבְךָ לַעֲשׂתוֹ
"ki karov aleicha hadavar m'od b'ficha ubil'vavcha l'asoto"
"For very close to you is the word in your mouth and in your heart to do it"

Hey, and what again was the thing Revelation did command you to do?




And there is good evidence that Peter read Revelation, which would support the pre-70 AD (under the assumption that 1 Peter was written prior to that date. I presented this evidence in a thread called Did the Apostle Peter read the Book of Revelation? (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?666-Did-the-Apostle-Peter-read-the-Book-of-Revelation)

Also 1+2 Peter were written after 70AD, and not by Peter, but by someone else.

[Mystykal]

Futurists seem to think that a late date of Revelation (ca. 95 AD) is the "trump card" for their position. I see it as the opposite, because if Revelation is not referring to the events of 70 AD then it is demonstrably false, since it said that the events it predicted would happen "quickly" because "the time is near". And there is good evidence that Peter read Revelation, which would support the pre-70 AD (under the assumption that 1 Peter was written prior to that date. I presented this evidence in a thread called Did the Apostle Peter read the Book of Revelation? (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?666-Did-the-Apostle-Peter-read-the-Book-of-Revelation)

When I was a Christian, I became convinced that the Preterist view, though not perfect, was far and away the best fit for the data. I understood the Olivet Discourse as the Little Apocalypse that corresponded to the same events in the Big Apocalypse, aka, Book of Revelation. I laid out my interpretation in an article called The Synoptic Apocalypse (http://www.biblewheel.com/Theology/Olivet_Discourse.php).

I also was very impressed with how Revelation corresponds to the seven feasts. I explained this in a post called A Synopsis of Revelation (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?1774-Synopsis-of-the-Book-of-Revelation).

So what is the meaning of "coming on clouds"? From a Biblical perspective, that's a reference to the armies God used to judge Israel, just as in the OT.

Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

Jeremiah 4:13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled. 14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?


That passage is one of the more difficult to interpret in the Preterist system, but still, it presents no challenges like those caused by trying to force the Olivet Discourse to be part past and part future. That is simply impossible. I've debated many futurists on this forum over the years and they all failed to present a coherent, let alone cogent, case for their interpretations. They all had to quit when I exposed their errors and they refused to admit the truth. It was really quite frustrating - a hollow victory when the other side simply runs and hides.


That's how you invent doctrines that are not actually taught in the Bible. You can't just make up predictions about the future to fit an speculative eschatology. For example, most Futurists say that Elijah is yet to come, directly contradicting the teaching of Christ. Malachi said that Elijah would come before two events:

1) The Messiah

2) The Great and Terrible Day of the Lord.

Christ said that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come, and if he was not then Jesus was not Messiah. And John the Baptist warned the Pharisees of the "wrath" that was to come down on their generation, so we have both prophecies fulfilled or falsified. There is no future "second coming of Elijah" predicted in Scripture. Everything points to a first century fulfillment or the conclusion that the Bible is false.


I was always big on the study of prophetic types, but they are only useful if confirmed by the plain teaching of Scripture because there is no way for anyone to know if their interpretations are true or not, and there is no end to the number of interpretations that could be invented. Take a look at how the Catholics have interpreted the Ark with the Word of God in it as a Type of Mary, the Mother of God. They find that every bit as convincing as you find your typological interpretations. And so they do not help discerning between truth or falsehood, since everyone will see confirmations of their own biases in the "types" they can apply to the elements of the Bible.

Hi Richard:

Well done! I really am amazed by your intellect! What I wonder is, perhaps the void of Zen could explain your utter denial of all things spiritual? I just am baffled by your rejection of anything coming from the area of non-reality so to speak. like the void - the truth is hidden in the wind. Mysterious, without explanation - so is the Spirit. Is that possible? Can you see that as a possibilty although not able to prove it in any way?:pop2:


You can't just make up predictions about the future to fit an speculative eschatology. For example, most Futurists say that Elijah is yet to come, directly contradicting the teaching of Christ. Malachi said that Elijah would come before two events:

1) The Messiah

2) The Great and Terrible Day of the Lord.

Christ said that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come, and if he was not then Jesus was not Messiah. And John the Baptist warned the Pharisees of the "wrath" that was to come down on their generation, so we have both prophecies fulfilled or falsified. There is no future "second coming of Elijah" predicted in Scripture. Everything points to a first century fulfillment or the conclusion that the Bible is false.


I wonder if the phrase "Great and terrible day of the Lord" could be linked to the verses which were omitted by Christ when He read the Isaiah scripture in the Synagogue. The passage He failed to read was "and the day of vengeance of our God." Indicating that those verses were NOT fullfilled then in His day....


Isaiah 61:2 (http://www.biblewheel.com/isaiah/61-2.htm)
"To proclaim the year of the LORD's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn..."


Luke 4:19
18 (http://www.biblewheel.com/luke/4-18.htm)"THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED, 19 (http://www.biblewheel.com/luke/4-19.htm)TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD." 20 (http://www.biblewheel.com/luke/4-20.htm)And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him.…

Just a thought! The day of vengeance could not have been in Christ's lifetime...
... So still future?

Namaste,

Mystykal

[duxrow]

I was always big on the study of prophetic types, but they are only useful if confirmed by the plain teaching of Scripture because there is no way for anyone to know if their interpretations are true or not, and there is no end to the number of interpretations that could be invented. Take a look at how the Catholics have interpreted the Ark with the Word of God in it as a Type of Mary, the Mother of God. They find that every bit as convincing as you find your typological interpretations. And so they do not help discerning between truth or falsehood, since everyone will see confirmations of their own biases in the "types" they can apply to the elements of the Bible.
OK Ram, I'm not catholic but saw this same 'type' of Ark of Mary even before your comment - and not only that, but pregnant Mary is type of US who "let Christ be formed in us", Gal 4:19, and calling us Wise or Foolish Virgins. You don't think that fits the plain language? Not gender restrictive, so might be Jacob's Trouble too. :winking0071:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard:

Well done! I really am amazed by your intellect! What I wonder is, perhaps the void of Zen could explain your utter denial of all things spiritual? I just am baffled by your rejection of anything coming from the area of non-reality so to speak. like the void - the truth is hidden in the wind. Mysterious, without explanation - so is the Spirit. Is that possible? Can you see that as a possibilty although not able to prove it in any way?:pop2:

Hey there Mystykal,

What are you talking about? I have never said anything that could be interpreted as an "utter denial of all things spiritual." On the contrary, I have been perfectly clear that there could be a spiritual reality. I am utterly mystified by how you could misunderstand me so completely.



I wonder if the phrase "Great and terrible day of the Lord" could be linked to the verses which were omitted by Christ when He read the Isaiah scripture in the Synagogue. The passage He failed to read was "and the day of vengeance of our God." Indicating that those verses were NOT fullfilled then in His day....


Isaiah 61:2 (http://www.biblewheel.com/isaiah/61-2.htm)
"To proclaim the year of the LORD's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn..."


Luke 4:19
18 (http://www.biblewheel.com/luke/4-18.htm)"THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED, 19 (http://www.biblewheel.com/luke/4-19.htm)TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD." 20 (http://www.biblewheel.com/luke/4-20.htm)And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him.…

Just a thought! The day of vengeance could not have been in Christ's lifetime...
... So still future?

Namaste,

Mystykal
No, that doesn't work at all because Jesus did speak of the "days of vengeance" in the same book:

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

He was talking about the events leading up to the destruction of the temple which happened in 70 AD.

Shine on!

:sunny:

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

OK Ram, I'm not catholic but saw this same 'type' of Ark of Mary even before your comment - and not only that, but pregnant Mary is type of US who "let Christ be formed in us", Gal 4:19, and calling us Wise or Foolish Virgins. You don't think that fits the plain language? Not gender restrictive, so might be Jacob's Trouble too. :winking0071:
I think that figurative language is very profound, really. I wrote a lot about the typology of the temple, and the ark in the holy place holding the Word of God like believers holding the word in their heart. I have no problem seeing that. But the Catholics mix it with their doctrines about Mary, including her perpetual virginity and sinlessness and other things that don't come from the Bible. And that's my point: typology works great as a way to illustrate things that are plainly taught, but if it is untethered from the plain teaching, it can be made to say whatever enters the imagination.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

There is plenty of plain teaching that shows that God teaches through cause and effect, and holds us accountable for our sins. If "the things written aforetime are written for our learning" they would be pretty useless without immediate prophetic types to illustrate what the Holy Spirit is talking about. Prophecy is not about making predictions but offering a warning, and when the events occur, helping us understand our place in the timeline. You might do well to study:

http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/books/secrets-of-time/

That's a large book! Unfortunately, I don't have time to dig into it right now. But if there is something in particular you think I should know, don't hesitate to point it out.

But as for prophecy being a "warning" - just look at the ten thousand false trumpets blown in the last two thousand years! Prophecy is too ambiguous to be of any use to anyone. Every generation reads their own concerns into it, and so it serves as no warning at all. And worse, it has misled countless fervent believes into the delusion that they were living in the "last days."



I studied Matthew 24 being completely fulfilled by 70 AD several years ago and have no problem with that. But the application of the whole of Revelations to those events is entirely new to me. The link you provided concerning the feast days in Revelations requires much more thought, on my part.

That's very interesting. When I was a Christian, I was very satisfied to see the connections between the Apocalypse (Revelation) and the Synoptic Apocalypse (http://www.biblewheel.com/Theology/Olivet_Discourse.php) (aka The Olivet Discourse). But I can understand how you might find this difficult, given the symbolic nature of Revelation and if you begin with assumption that it was written after 70 AD.



However, the first thing that comes to mind is chapter 18. I see no way for:

"For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies."

to have had dealings with Jerusalem in the manner described. Then you have the problem of the suddenness of the judgement:

"Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her." "Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come." "For in one hour so great riches is come to nought." "...for in one hour is she made desolate."

The last item mentioned as a trade good, "the souls {lives} of men" could not be an item of trade {collateral/surety for debt} until the invention of the Birth Certificate.

Babylon the Great is a worldwide system based on babylonian politics, economics and religion, certainly not limited to 40 years during the first century AD. Even if you could apply all of Revelation to 70AD, it would still serve as a type/antitype for what is happening right before our eyes.
The language that you highlighted could easily refer to the ruling class of apostate Israel (Babylon) that was riding the Roman beast. There are many reasons to think this is what was meant (under the assumption that it is true, of course, which I no longer accept). Here are the basic reasons as I explained them a few years ago (2009) when I was still a Christian:

First, there is the explicit text that identifies the Great City as Jerusalem: Revelation 11:8 ... the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Second, there is the unique identifying elements that Scritpure uses to describe two and only two entities, the Levitical Priesthood and the Whore of Babylon (purple, scarlet, fine linen):

Exodus 36:34-38 And he overlaid the boards with gold, and made their rings of gold to be places for the bars, and overlaid the bars with gold. 35 ¶ And he made a vail of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen: with cherubims made he it of cunning work. 36 And he made thereunto four pillars of shittim wood, and overlaid them with gold: their hooks were of gold; and he cast for them four sockets of silver. 37 And he made an hanging for the tabernacle door of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen, of needlework; 38 And the five pillars of it with their hooks: and he overlaid their chapiters and their fillets with gold: but their five sockets were of brass.
Revelation 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

Scripture describes nothing but the Levitical Priesthood and the Whore of Babylon as being decked with purple, scarlet, and fine line.

Third, Christ's judgment on apostate Jerusalem in Matthew 23 is fulfilled in Rev 18:24:Matthew 23:33-36 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Revelation 18:21-24 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Fourth, the rest of that prophecy (in blue text) is essentially identical to the prophecy against apostate Jerusalem given just before God destroyed them and the Temple in the 6th century BC (Jer 25:10). And the prophecy from Matt 23 states when the prophecy would be fulfilled: All these things shall come upon this generation.

Fifth, God identified apostate Jerusalem as a harlot in the Old Testament:Isaiah 1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

The judgment of Jersualem in 70 AD was very "sudden". I see no justification for insisting on a literal "hour". That's just a figure of speech. The way it was used in the OT confirms this.

I think you are taking "trade" far too literally and anachronistically when you apply it to Birth Certificates.

Great chatting!

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hebrew "karov" does denote both "soon" and "near" -- i.e. "close" both in time and space

to be found in Deuteronomy 30:14,
כִּי קָרוֹב אֵלֶיךָ הַדָּבָר מְאֹד בְּפִיךָ וּבִלְבָבְךָ לַעֲשׂתוֹ
"ki karov aleicha hadavar m'od b'ficha ubil'vavcha l'asoto"
"For very close to you is the word in your mouth and in your heart to do it"


Yeah, but it doesn't have to mean both, and since verse 3 speaks specifically of time, saying "the time is at hand" we have good reason to understand it that way.



Hey, and what again was the thing Revelation did command you to do?

Lot's of things. Which one are you referring to?



Also 1+2 Peter were written after 70AD, and not by Peter, but by someone else.
That's debated, but I think there is good reason to think that 2 Peter was written much later and by a different person than 1 Peter.

But if Revelation was written late, then it certainly is false since it emphatically said that the things it predicted would happen "quickly" because "the time was near."

[sylvius]

Yeah, but it doesn't have to mean both, and since verse 3 speaks specifically of time, saying "the time is at hand" we have good reason to understand it that way.




It says

μακάριος ὁ ἀναγινώσκων καὶ οἱ ἀκούοντες τοὺς λόγους τῆς προφητείας καὶ τηροῦντες τὰ ἐν αὐτῇ γεγραμμένα, ὁ γὰρ καιρὸς ἐγγύς


ἐγγύς
is from ἐγγίζω, that translates Hebrew "karav", root of "karov" and also of "korban"


""the time is near" -- physically - you can touch.

cf. Mark 1:15,
καὶ λέγων ὅτι Πεπλήρωται ὁ καιρὸς καὶ ἤγγικεν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ: μετανοεῖτε καὶ πιστεύετε ἐν τῷ εὐαγγελίῳ.

Revelation 1:1 also doens't say that certain things are gonna happen in a near future, but speedily:
Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ἣν ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ θεός, δεῖξαι τοῖς δούλοις αὐτοῦ ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει

speedily == quicker than the eye, i.e. quicker than light.

τάχος,
1) quickness, speed

The Eternal (God) is present in the here and now, as conjunction of the sixth days of creation and the seventh, i.e conjunction of the profane (weekdays) and the holy (sabbath), in the initial letters of "yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamayim".




Lot's of things. Which one are you referring to?

http://www.biblewheel.com/GR/GR_666.php


The study of the number 666 must therefore be understood as a command from the Lord, and should be obeyed.

[messianicdruid]

The language that you highlighted could easily refer to the ruling class of apostate Israel (Babylon) that was riding the Roman beast.

Hardly. "All" nations would have to include all native tribes of North and South America in 30 to 70 AD. just to mention a few.

Mystery [ hidden ] Babylon has only recently been able to reach into [ effect ] every nook and cranny of the planet via the "love of money". "In order for our current level of debt-fueled prosperity to continue, the rest of the world must continue to use our dollars to trade with one another and must continue to buy our debt at ridiculously low interest rates." And as the article illustrates "one hour" is now not only possible, but very likely.

"A guy once asked Ernest Hemingway how he went broke. His response was "gradually and then suddenly". I love his humor. The take away from this is that America [ in fact the global banking system aka Mystery Babylon ] has been growing poorer for quite some time. However, when the dollar [ the world reserve currency ] crashes, it will happen quick."

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/china-starts-to-make-a-power-move-against-the-u-s-dollar

Another echo [ ie: some practical aspects of messianicdruidism ]...

"I’m amazed at the level of credit the scientific community [ History Channel ?!? - Ancient Alien programming ] has gotten through the years; it has reached levels of an astonishing follower-ship, where information put forward from institutions is taken ‘as is’ – no questions asked.

Their status is really huge since the inception of the rule that everything must be scientifically proven. We’ve finally got rid of quasi-knowledge, religious hysteria, and most of all ‘personal opinions’."

http://www.wakingtimes.com/2014/02/19/serving-system-free-really-cares-judgment/

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hardly. "All" nations would have to include all native tribes of North and South America in 30 to 70 AD. just to mention a few.

When the Bible speaks of "all the nations of the earth" it is not referring to all the nations of the globe called "Planet Earth" but rather all the nations in the "world" centered on the land (earth) of Israel which was limited to the Middle East. This becomes quite obvious when we study how the word is used. We've gone over this many times in this forum in great detail. Here is a good summary of the facts as presented in Scripture concerning the meaning of all forms of "world" which shows the Gospel was preached in all the world (from Post #15 (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=18135&postcount=15) in the thread called A Witness to ALL NATIONS (pas ethnos) (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1483)):


Prophecy: Matthew 24:14 – And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world [oikumene] for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Fulfillment: Romans 10:15-18 – And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world [oikumene].
Prophecy: Mark 16:15 – And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world [kosmos], and preach the gospel to every creature.
Fulfillment: Colossians 1:5-6 – For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world [kosmos]; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Prophecy: Mark 16:15 – And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature [ktisis].
Fulfillment: Colossians 1:23 – If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature [ktisis] which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Prophecies: Matthew 28:19 – Go ye therefore, and teach all nations [ethnos], baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mark 13:10 – And the gospel must first be published among all nations [ethnos].
Fulfillment: Romans 16:25-26 – Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations [ethnos] for the obedience of faith:
Prophecy: Acts 1:8 – But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth [ge].
Fulfillment: Romans 10:15-18 – And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth [ge], and their words unto the ends of the world.
Prophecy: Isaiah 52:14-15 – As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: 15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
Fulfillment: Romans 15:19-21 – Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation: 21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

The implications are clear. Not one of these passages suggests the "world" refers to the globe of planet earth.



Mystery [ hidden ] Babylon has only recently been able to reach into [ effect ] every nook and cranny of the planet via the "love of money". "In order for our current level of debt-fueled prosperity to continue, the rest of the world must continue to use our dollars to trade with one another and must continue to buy our debt at ridiculously low interest rates." And as the article illustrates "one hour" is now not only possible, but very likely.

Your appeal to current events is a very common eschatological error. Christians almost always think they are living in the end times, and there is no end to the "evidence" they have presented over the last 2000 years. Luther thought the end was near (in his generation) 400 years ago. And so on it goes, generation after generation making the same errors as their parents. They never learn. Doesn't this concern you? You are following in a tradition that has a 2000 year long record of perfect error! 100% wrong 100% of the time for two thousand years!

This is why prophecy fails as a "guide" to anyone. Each generation reads their own ideas into the prophecy and come to the same false conclusions as the previous generation.

[Mystykal]

Hey there Mystykal,

What are you talking about? I have never said anything that could be interpreted as an "utter denial of all things spiritual." On the contrary, I have been perfectly clear that there could be a spiritual reality. I am utterly mystified by how you could misunderstand me so completely.


No, that doesn't work at all because Jesus did speak of the "days of vengeance" in the same book:

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

He was talking about the events leading up to the destruction of the temple which happened in 70 AD.

Shine on!

:sunny:

Richard

Hi Richard:
You have said many times you are not a believer in anything spiritual. I know you always hold out the "possibility" of such things as gods and angels and the like - but you do not have any reason to believe in such things at the moment as you have no evidence...
I do not think that is a misstatemnet of your position. Correct me if I am wrong!


I have been perfectly clear that there could be a spiritual reality


Exactly! Could be is a far cry from reality and the fact that "there is a current spiritual reality."

The idea that Jesus is only speaking of the Destruction of Jerusalem is a narrow view of His position as the early church did not have a world view eschatology as yet. But later came to recognize that reality as reflected in the later writings of Revelation.

Namaste,

Mystykal

[sylvius]

When the Bible speaks of "all the nations of the earth" it is not referring to all the nations of the globe called "Planet Earth" but rather all the nations in the "world" centered on the land (earth) of Israel which was limited to the Middle East.

It are biblical nations, embedded in the biblical narrative




The haggadic assumption that there are seventy nations and languages in the world is based upon the ethnological table given in Gen. x., where seventy grandsons of Noah are enumerated, each of whom became the ancestor of a nation.

[messianicdruid]

This is why prophecy fails as a "guide" to anyone. Each generation reads their own ideas into the prophecy and come to the same false conclusions as the previous generation.

You are trying to prove too much. You are insisting that short term prophecy is all there is.

From chapter two:

"There are many truths to be discovered and lessons to be learned when you understand how God has dealt with nations in history. Nations have always risen and fallen by the judgments of God, but most Christians see this only in a general principle, if they recognize it at all. Unless you see the timing of the fall of a nation, the hand of God remains largely hidden.

It is said that a coincidence is when God does something and chooses to remain anonymous. The biblical way of putting it is found in Proverbs 25:2,

"It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; but the honor of kings to search out a matter."

In other words, God hides His influence in human affairs, and therefore few understand that the fall of a nation is the direct result of God’s decree of judgment. But this verse also implies that God will reveal His hand and show His ways to the one who searches with his whole heart. You must, of course, desire to know Him more than anything. It must be top priority in your life, and you must be willing to give up all else and endure the pain of forsaking friends and fellow Christians. If the discovery of His ways is worth that price to you, then the possibility of such divine revelation exists.

But before we can understand the laws of time, we must first do a basic chronological study. Unfortunately, this will be the least exciting part of our study, but it is necessary to prove that the dates we will be using are biblically accurate."

If you believe there is nothing to see, you will not look for it.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard:
You have said many times you are not a believer in anything spiritual. I know you always hold out the "possibility" of such things as gods and angels and the like - but you do not have any reason to believe in such things at the moment as you have no evidence...
I do not think that is a misstatemnet of your position. Correct me if I am wrong!

Good morning Mystykal,

You are totally contradicting yourself. First you asserted that I am in an "utter denial of all things spiritual" and now you admit that I do no such thing, but rather consistently allow for the possibility of spiritual things.

Consider yourself corrected.





I have been perfectly clear that there could be a spiritual reality


Exactly! Could be is a far cry from reality and the fact that "there is a current spiritual reality."

No, it's not a "far cry" at all. On the contrary, "could be" is a necessary condition for their to be a "current spiritual reality." The only difference between "could be" and "is" is the evidence, which is still lacking as you well know. The term "spiritual" is not even well-defined.



The idea that Jesus is only speaking of the Destruction of Jerusalem is a narrow view of His position as the early church did not have a world view eschatology as yet. But later came to recognize that reality as reflected in the later writings of Revelation.

Well, he did say "narrow is the way." :winking0071:

Preterism is not perfect, but it is far and away the best fit to the Biblical data. Futurism is based on a denial of what the Bible actually states, which is why it is so very ironic that it is the preferred position of most people who claim to believe that the Bible is the "Word of God."

I've been debating futurists on this forum for many years and have never seen one that could sustain their argument. And there is a great irony here. By arguing against the fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse, the Futurists align themselves with atheists who deny there are any fulfilled prophecies in the Bible. After years of study, I concluded that the one and only prophecy that had any chance of actually being PROVEN was the destruction of 70 AD. But that's the very prophecy that the fundamentalists DENY because it contradicts their eschatology! What could be more ironic? Throughout history, Christians have used the destruction of 70 AD as proof of the "divine origin" of Christianity. For example, here (http://www.tentmaker.org/books/destruction-of-jerusalem.htm) is the introduction to the preface to an excellent dissertation by Peter Holford (1805):
THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM

An Absolute and Irresistible

PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY

Including a narrative of the calamities which befel the Jews
so far as they tend to verify our Lord's predictions relative to that event.

By George Peter Holford
(Written in 1805)

"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation, if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible." --Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason

PREFACE
History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations, but especially such as are favoured with the light and blessings of REVELATION; together with the impressive and terrific grandeur of the events themselves--are circumstances which must always insure to the subject of the following pages more than ordinary degrees of interest and importance. Many eminent and learned men have employed their pens in the illustration of it; but the fruits of their labours are, for the most part, contained in large and expensive works, out of the reach of numbers, to whom the discussion might prove equally interesting and improving. For the use and gratification of such, the present Treatise, in a more accessible and familiar form, is diffidently offered to the public. In order that it might be better adapted for the general reader, critical inquiries and tedious details are equally avoided; but it has been the care of the writer not to omit any important fact or argument that, in his opinion, tended to elucidate the subject. Countenanced by the example of many respectable names, he has ventured to introduce the extraordinary prodigies, which, according to Josephus, preceded the destruction of the Holy City. He has also added a few sentences in their defense, but he does not intend thereby to express his unqualified admission of their genuineness.


And there are many lines of proof that quickly debunk the entire Futurist paradigm that was invented largely by Darby in 1830 or so.

1) The unity of the Olivet Discourse. Futurists have to arbitrarily and irrationally assert that parts of Matthew and Mark are yet future while the parallel passages in Luke have already been fulfilled. This utterly destroys the meaning of words as you can see in my extended discussion with twospirits in the thread The "Already/Not Yet" Interpretation of Eschatology (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?3008-The-quot-Already-Not-Yet-quot-Interpretation-of-Eschatology&p=43310#post43310) which contains over 200 posts. He chose to quit when I demonstrated a blatant logical inconsistency in his argument. You can read all about it in my victory post (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2841-Preterism-in-the-21-Century&p=49824#post49824).

2) Every major event of Israel was predicted with both a start date and an end date. Not so with the Futurist open-ended timeline with its magical stretchy 2000+ year "gap." I explained this in the thread Continuity of Prophetic History Confirms Preterism (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?617-Continuity-of-Prophetic-History-confirms-Preterism). (Of course, there's a good reason the OT has those dates. It's a lot easier to make up fulfilled prophecies when making up history than to actually predict something.)

3) The thread Preterist interpretation of the Olivet Discourse DOMINATES Church history (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?1433-Preterist-interpretation-of-the-Olivet-Discourse-DOMINATES-Church-History) gives many examples of Preterism being taught in the first few centuries of the Christian era:

Christostom (4th c.): "For I will ask them, Did He send the prophets and wise men? Did they slay them in their synagogue? Was their house left desolate? Did all the vengeance come upon that generation? It is quite plain that it was so, and no man gainsays it." (Homily LXXIV, A.D.347)
Origin (2nd c.): "I challenge anyone to prove my statement untrue if I say that the entire Jewish nation was destroyed less than one whole generation later on account of these sufferings which they inflicted on Jesus. For it was, I believe, forty-two years from the time when they crucified Jesus to the destruction of Jerusalem." (Contra Celsum, 198-199)
Athanasius (4th c.): "Now observe; that city, since the coming of our Savior, has had an end, and all the land of the Jews has been laid waste; so that from the testimony of these things (and we need no further proof, being assured by our own eyes of the fact) there must, of necessity, be an end of the shadow. For as soon as these things were done, everything was finished, for the altar was broken, and the veil of the temple was rent; and although the city was not yet laid waste, the abomination was ready to sit in the midst of the temple, and the city and those ancient ordinances to receive their final consummation. (Athanasius, Festal Letters, VIII)


And I could go on and on and on of course. I've been debating Futurist for years on this forum and have never seen one - NOT ONE - who could sustain his argument with logic and facts.

Great chatting!

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

This is why prophecy fails as a "guide" to anyone. Each generation reads their own ideas into the prophecy and come to the same false conclusions as the previous generation.
You are trying to prove too much. You are insisting that short term prophecy is all there is.

I made no such assertion. I gave evidence for the correct Biblical meaning of the word "earth" which contradicts your eschatology and you have yet to respond. If you want to maintain your views you will have to explain away the evidence that shows the NT "world" refers to the "world" of Israel in which the "words of the Gospel" had already reached the ends of in the first century.



From chapter two:

"There are many truths to be discovered and lessons to be learned when you understand how God has dealt with nations in history. Nations have always risen and fallen by the judgments of God, but most Christians see this only in a general principle, if they recognize it at all. Unless you see the timing of the fall of a nation, the hand of God remains largely hidden.

It is said that a coincidence is when God does something and chooses to remain anonymous. The biblical way of putting it is found in Proverbs 25:2,

"It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; but the honor of kings to search out a matter."

In other words, God hides His influence in human affairs, and therefore few understand that the fall of a nation is the direct result of God’s decree of judgment. But this verse also implies that God will reveal His hand and show His ways to the one who searches with his whole heart. You must, of course, desire to know Him more than anything. It must be top priority in your life, and you must be willing to give up all else and endure the pain of forsaking friends and fellow Christians. If the discovery of His ways is worth that price to you, then the possibility of such divine revelation exists.


Your argument sounds like what I would hear from a member of any religion. It is common for religions to say that God hides his ways from everyone but the "true believers". Such assertions cannot be proven true or false, so they are pointless in a discussion like ours.



But before we can understand the laws of time, we must first do a basic chronological study. Unfortunately, this will be the least exciting part of our study, but it is necessary to prove that the dates we will be using are biblically accurate."

If you believe there is nothing to see, you will not look for it.

If you want to pursue the study of biblical chronology, it would be good if you started a thread devoted to it.

Great chatting,

Richard

[messianicdruid]

If you want to maintain your views you will have to explain away the evidence that shows the NT "world" refers to the "world" of Israel in which the "words of the Gospel" had already reached the ends of in the first century.

My views change regularly, as I learn more about what God is doing [ will do ] in the earth. To "maintain" them would be like polishing an idol; as if God had quit doing anything. This is one reason I have found Historicists more agreeable, personally.

http://postmillennialism.com/2012/05/historicism-preterism-and-reformed-theology/

The ten tribes of Israel were scattered for idolatry. Jesus sent the Apostles to tell them the "good news" that their Kinsman Redeemer had come. If Israelites were scattered into North and South America, for example, then the Apostles were sent to them as well. If it was only the area around Jerusalem as you say, fine. Time will tell if Mystery Babylon [Babylon the Great] is a current affair.

I may start another thread, as you suggest. Or I may leave it to another who is not locked into premillenialism, postmillenialism, amillenialism or preterism.

[sylvius]

Well, he did say "narrow is the way." :winking0071:



Richard


He said: "How narrow is the gate"

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Well, he did say "narrow is the way." :winking0071:


Richard

He said: "How narrow is the gate"
No he didn't. My quote was correct:

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

[Mystykal]

Good morning Mystykal,

You are totally contradicting yourself. First you asserted that I am in an "utter denial of all things spiritual" and now you admit that I do no such thing, but rather consistently allow for the possibility of spiritual things.

Consider yourself corrected.


No, it's not a "far cry" at all. On the contrary, "could be" is a necessary condition for their to be a "current spiritual reality." The only difference between "could be" and "is" is the evidence, which is still lacking as you well know. The term "spiritual" is not even well-defined.


Well, he did say "narrow is the way." :winking0071:

Preterism is not perfect, but it is far and away the best fit to the Biblical data. Futurism is based on a denial of what the Bible actually states, which is why it is so very ironic that it is the preferred position of most people who claim to believe that the Bible is the "Word of God."

I've been debating futurists on this forum for many years and have never seen one that could sustain their argument. And there is a great irony here. By arguing against the fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse, the Futurists align themselves with atheists who deny there are any fulfilled prophecies in the Bible. After years of study, I concluded that the one and only prophecy that had any chance of actually being PROVEN was the destruction of 70 AD. But that's the very prophecy that the fundamentalists DENY because it contradicts their eschatology! What could be more ironic? Throughout history, Christians have used the destruction of 70 AD as proof of the "divine origin" of Christianity. For example, here (http://www.tentmaker.org/books/destruction-of-jerusalem.htm) is the introduction to the preface to an excellent dissertation by Peter Holford (1805):
THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM

An Absolute and Irresistible

PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY

Including a narrative of the calamities which befel the Jews
so far as they tend to verify our Lord's predictions relative to that event.

By George Peter Holford
(Written in 1805)

"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation, if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible." --Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason

PREFACE
History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations, but especially such as are favoured with the light and blessings of REVELATION; together with the impressive and terrific grandeur of the events themselves--are circumstances which must always insure to the subject of the following pages more than ordinary degrees of interest and importance. Many eminent and learned men have employed their pens in the illustration of it; but the fruits of their labours are, for the most part, contained in large and expensive works, out of the reach of numbers, to whom the discussion might prove equally interesting and improving. For the use and gratification of such, the present Treatise, in a more accessible and familiar form, is diffidently offered to the public. In order that it might be better adapted for the general reader, critical inquiries and tedious details are equally avoided; but it has been the care of the writer not to omit any important fact or argument that, in his opinion, tended to elucidate the subject. Countenanced by the example of many respectable names, he has ventured to introduce the extraordinary prodigies, which, according to Josephus, preceded the destruction of the Holy City. He has also added a few sentences in their defense, but he does not intend thereby to express his unqualified admission of their genuineness.


And there are many lines of proof that quickly debunk the entire Futurist paradigm that was invented largely by Darby in 1830 or so.

1) The unity of the Olivet Discourse. Futurists have to arbitrarily and irrationally assert that parts of Matthew and Mark are yet future while the parallel passages in Luke have already been fulfilled. This utterly destroys the meaning of words as you can see in my extended discussion with twospirits in the thread The "Already/Not Yet" Interpretation of Eschatology (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?3008-The-quot-Already-Not-Yet-quot-Interpretation-of-Eschatology&p=43310#post43310) which contains over 200 posts. He chose to quit when I demonstrated a blatant logical inconsistency in his argument. You can read all about it in my victory post (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2841-Preterism-in-the-21-Century&p=49824#post49824).

2) Every major event of Israel was predicted with both a start date and an end date. Not so with the Futurist open-ended timeline with its magical stretchy 2000+ year "gap." I explained this in the thread Continuity of Prophetic History Confirms Preterism (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?617-Continuity-of-Prophetic-History-confirms-Preterism). (Of course, there's a good reason the OT has those dates. It's a lot easier to make up fulfilled prophecies when making up history than to actually predict something.)

3) The thread Preterist interpretation of the Olivet Discourse DOMINATES Church history (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?1433-Preterist-interpretation-of-the-Olivet-Discourse-DOMINATES-Church-History) gives many examples of Preterism being taught in the first few centuries of the Christian era:

Christostom (4th c.): "For I will ask them, Did He send the prophets and wise men? Did they slay them in their synagogue? Was their house left desolate? Did all the vengeance come upon that generation? It is quite plain that it was so, and no man gainsays it." (Homily LXXIV, A.D.347)
Origin (2nd c.): "I challenge anyone to prove my statement untrue if I say that the entire Jewish nation was destroyed less than one whole generation later on account of these sufferings which they inflicted on Jesus. For it was, I believe, forty-two years from the time when they crucified Jesus to the destruction of Jerusalem." (Contra Celsum, 198-199)
Athanasius (4th c.): "Now observe; that city, since the coming of our Savior, has had an end, and all the land of the Jews has been laid waste; so that from the testimony of these things (and we need no further proof, being assured by our own eyes of the fact) there must, of necessity, be an end of the shadow. For as soon as these things were done, everything was finished, for the altar was broken, and the veil of the temple was rent; and although the city was not yet laid waste, the abomination was ready to sit in the midst of the temple, and the city and those ancient ordinances to receive their final consummation. (Athanasius, Festal Letters, VIII)


And I could go on and on and on of course. I've been debating Futurist for years on this forum and have never seen one - NOT ONE - who could sustain his argument with logic and facts.

Great chatting!

Richard

Hi Richard:


You are totally contradicting yourself. First you asserted that I am in an "utter denial of all things spiritual" and now you admit that I do no such thing, but rather consistently allow for the possibility of spiritual things.

Consider yourself corrected.
I do not think my statement is incorrect! So no need to correct me!:p

In trying to correct my statement you clearly do not understand that if at the current time you do not hold a certain position that any future time that position may change CANNOT be retroactive in REAL TIME to the present moment. Hence my statement about your position NOW in real time still is true! Even if at a later date you change your position as it relates to the present or any other time!..... :confused:

Why you have such an ego as to think I made a mistake in my basic statement about something both you and Rose state all the time! Rose goes so far as to say the NEED for a god theory no longer exists as we already know how the universe came into being an no god is needed! That kind of statement really does not have any room for future change as the change is already deemed not the be needed....

As to the futurist methodology I agree with you to a point... I think there are great problems with the theology of the theologians who proclaim to be futurists.... It is that issue which clouds all their conclusions. The idea that Jesus is GOD is another issue which will change the way you see His statements as being in the future or not....

The problem for you is that in order to accept Jesus you MUST accept the biblegod IHVH which is something you will NEVER do! :lol: Correct me if I am wrong!... Second thought don't bother!:lol::p

Peace Out!

Namaste,

Mystykal

[sylvius]

No he didn't. My quote was correct:

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


τί στενὴ ἡ πύλη καὶ τεθλιμμένη ἡ ὁδὸς ἡ ἀπάγουσα εἰς τὴν ζωήν, καὶ ὀλίγοι εἰσὶν οἱ εὑρίσκοντες αὐτήν.


στενός = narrow

τεθλιμμένός is from θλίβω like also θλῖψις that occurs fe. in Matthew 24:29, Εὐθέως δὲ μετὰ τὴν θλῖψιν τῶν ἡμερῶν ἐκείνων, immediately after the oppression of those days.

IOW "the end" of which is spoken of in Mathew 24 is NOT the destruction of the Temple.

[Rose]

Why you have such an ego as to think I made a mistake in my basic statement about something both you and Rose state all the time! Rose goes so far as to say the NEED for a god theory no longer exists as we already know how the universe came into being an no god is needed! That kind of statement really does not have any room for future change as the change is already deemed not the be needed....


Peace Out!

Namaste,

Mystykal

Hello Mystykal

Just to clarify one small point. :p I have never said it is known how the universe came into being, rather I have said that from the first moment forward scientists know how the universe has evolved to the state it is in today, with no god needed. What caused that first moment to happen is still a mystery.

All the best,
Rose

[Mystykal]

Hello Mystykal

Just to clarify one small point. :p I have never said it is known how the universe came into being, rather I have said that from the first moment forward scientists know how the universe has evolved to the state it is in today, with no god needed. What caused that first moment to happen is still a mystery.

All the best,
Rose

Hi Rose:

Thank you for making that distinction! :yo: I think the phrase "came into being" can have two different meanings. However, MOST people, including myself, use it to mean the general formation of the Universe not the start point in some cosmic spark of ignition...

But to my point - you have created a nice explanation as to why NO god is required to keep the process going. It does seem to me that in light of that fact the need for spirituality is non-existent for all intents and purposes. So when you or Richard keep ACTING like that IS a possibility you are not really saying it in a way which is understood by most people to mean the possiblity is "real"... It is turning a normal understanding of words on their head! Most people do not split hairs as you seem to do!:confused:

Namaste,

Mystykal

[sylvius]

τί στενὴ ἡ πύλη καὶ τεθλιμμένη ἡ ὁδὸς ἡ ἀπάγουσα εἰς τὴν ζωήν, καὶ ὀλίγοι εἰσὶν οἱ εὑρίσκοντες αὐτήν.


στενός = narrow

τεθλιμμένός is from θλίβω like also θλῖψις that occurs fe. in Matthew 24:29, Εὐθέως δὲ μετὰ τὴν θλῖψιν τῶν ἡμερῶν ἐκείνων, immediately after the oppression of those days.

IOW "the end" of which is spoken of in Mathew 24 is NOT the destruction of the Temple.

For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.


The "hard road"of Matthew 7:14 find a parallel in Acts 14:22,




strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many sufferings we must enter the kingdom of God.

[Rose]

Hi Rose:

Thank you for making that distinction! :yo: I think the phrase "came into being" can have two different meanings. However, MOST people, including myself, use it to mean the general formation of the Universe not the start point in some cosmic spark of ignition...

But to my point - you have created a nice explanation as to why NO god is required to keep the process going. It does seem to me that in light of that fact the need for spirituality is non-existent for all intents and purposes. So when you or Richard keep ACTING like that IS a possibility you are not really saying it in a way which is understood by most people to mean the possiblity is "real"... It is turning a normal understanding of words on their head! Most people do not split hairs as you seem to do!:confused:

Namaste,

Mystykal

Hello Mystykal,

I am strictly speaking for myself and not Richard, when I say that the only place I see for a intelligent creator to exist, is in what caused the first moment of the universe to happen. After that it appears that everything unfolds, and evolves into what we see around us, and the type of god that is portrayed in the Bible is definitely not needed to explain its workings.

Take care,
Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The mania and strong delusion is in the minds of Christian fundamentalists and other delusional idiots. The need to wake-up!

I like what Einstein said,..."delusion is a kind of prison for us...our task must be to free ourselves by widening our circle of compassion 'to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty'." The depth of "consciousness expansion" is based on and proportional to the ability to face one's fears. The more fears you're willing to own up to, the greater the expansion.

Since the delusional paranoid function almost completely outside of the normal arenas where they would be challenged and forced to produce evidence in place of speculation, they flourish relatively unscathed and await their next appearance on the George Noory or Glen Beck or Pat Robertson and the likes of his his filthy ilk, seemingly oblivious to the absurdity of such behavior. When the do bring their apocalypto-conspiracy B.S. to the public in forums where they can be challenged, "they are grand masters at evading contrary evidence and challenging opponents to explain this or that," which, when explained, "is quickly ignored in favor of a new this or that that needs to be explained, ad nauseam."

It's a persistent psychic complex that corresponds broadly- a style made up of certain preoccupations and fantasies: "the megalomaniac view of oneself as the SAVED, Elect, Chosen of God, wholly good, abominably persecuted, yet assured of ultimate triumph; the attribution of gigantic Satanic and demonic powers to the Adversary; the refusal to accept the ineluctable limitations and imperfections of human existence, such as transience, dissention, conflict, fallibility whether intellectual or moral; "the obsession with inerrable prophecies systematized misinterpretations, out of context, always vulgar, gross and often very grotesque!

Perhaps the central situation conducive to the diffusion of the paranoid tendency is a confrontation of opposed interests which are (or are felt to be) totally irreconcilable, and thus by nature "not susceptible to the normal rational processes of bargain and compromise." One of the most valuable things about history is that it teaches us how things do not happen. It is precisely this kind of awareness that the paranoid fails to develop. He has a special resistance of his own, of course, to developing such awareness, but circumstances often deprive him of exposure to events that might enlighten him- "and in any case he resists enlightenment."

We are all sufferers from history, but the paranoid is a double-sufferer, since he is afflicted not only by the real world, with the rest of us, "but by his fantasies as well."

Well it is Pathology of Mental illness in my opinion. But it is useless to argue against these "Facts" with these crazy shit-house rats as is plainly obvious to me after reading all of Richard's/Roses' plain and thoughtful replies. It really pisses me off to no end. :mad: It is sad Richard. And I really admire both you and Rose. :yo: What a breath of fresh air. :thumb:

I certainly will not put up with there pablum puke! :p

Because those people claim to be rationalists, but they're governed by such a heavy body of doggma and taboos. They're so fearful, and so hostile, and so narrow minded, and frightened, and uptight and dogmatic. They think they're rational! :lol: ...They're never skeptical about anything except the things they have a prejudice and bias against. None of them ever says anything skeptical about anything in establishment science or any entrenched dogma. They're only skeptical about new ideas that frighten them. They're actually dogmatically committed to what they were "carefully taught." They are really like terrorists, in a metaphorical sense. In the in attempt to polarize & inflame people is akin to the extreme & terrorizism.

Their presentation of God as vindictive Father, wrathful, capable of destroying murdering, butchering, righteous men as well as sinners, able to darken sun, moon, and the stars. They "make believe" and claim consequently inerrancy. And any finding which deviates from their "Holy Writ" is automatically wrong. They claim to have the only "correct" doctrines & understanding of the origins of the world and of man and all the others are in "error" and being duped by Evil Satanic forces.

What apparently disturbs many is the fear that approaching with Skepticism. But the fact is, all are "up to their eye balls" in conning, lies, denials, character assassinations of conscientious people in order to thereby control their Followers. WORSHIP THAT "BUTCHER"...NEVER, JACK!

Let's be honest, all suppress to some degree the truth, giving us "half-truths" in order to take power over us and control our actions, decisions and behaviors. All preach love and compassion, but their source of power and growth IS "DOMINANCE and POWER; FEAR guarantees "SUBMISSION & DOMINANCE." But I honestly think that's how they get their jollies & rocks-off.

That's my two-cents.
Hey there SOPHIA-BAPHOMET777,

I don't have time to answer more (gotta go to work in the morning), but I just wanted to let you know I like your attitude. Particularly the comment 'We are all sufferers from history." That reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from James Joyce: History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake.

I'll talk more as time permits.

Richard

[Mystykal]

Hello Mystykal,

I am strictly speaking for myself and not Richard, when I say that the only place I see for a intelligent creator to exist, is in what caused the first moment of the universe to happen. After that it appears that everything unfolds, and evolves into what we see around us, and the type of god that is portrayed in the Bible is definitely not needed to explain its workings.

Take care,
Rose

Hi Rose:

I do not infer that you ever speak for Richard...:winking0071: I do accept your perspective as yours alone... However, it seems very close to Richard's position as well. I have great respect for both of you! I feel bad that so many "Christians" do not give you the credit you deserve. Right or wrong, we are all in this boat together and we should be able to enjoy the ride! :thumb: I bless you!


Namaste,

Mystykal

[Rose]

Hi Rose:

I do not infer that you ever speak for Richard...:winking0071: I do accept your perspective as yours alone... However, it seems very close to Richard's position as well. I have great respect for both of you! I feel bad that so many "Christians" do not give you the credit you deserve. Right or wrong, we are all in this boat together and we should be able to enjoy the ride! :thumb: I bless you!


Namaste,

Mystykal

Hi Mystykal, :yo:

You are so right! We are all in this boat together and what I hold most important above all else, is for all people to be able to share their ideas whether or not I agree with them. Ideas should not threaten anyone's beliefs and if they do maybe those people should take a second look at what they believe and why. As I have said many times, the one thing that we all share is our humanness and that's a good starting point ...

All the best,
Rose

[Mystykal]

Hi Mystykal, :yo:

You are so right! We are all in this boat together and what I hold most important above all else, is for all people to be able to share their ideas whether or not I agree with them. Ideas should not threaten anyone's beliefs and if they do maybe those people should take a second look at what they believe and why. As I have said many times, the one thing that we all share is our humanness and that's a good starting point ...

All the best,
Rose

Hi Rose:
Thank you for your kind words. I really appreciate it! :D

Namaste,

Mystykal