Does Acts 1:11 teach a bodily return?

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

This is intended as an encouragement for those who are drawn to consider them and who are contemplating similar ideas. (clipped this section as it was originally posted on another forum)

Social/Religious context:
To a Jew of the first century; Christ's disappearance into the cloud would have been associated in their minds with how God's presence had spoke to them in times past. In mount sinaia; through the wilderness; in the transfiguration; and other times his presence was in a cloud. Thus, Christs disapperance and assymilation into the cloud was confirmation TO THEM of his Deity due to their association with the Presence of God.



Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
We have been TAUGHT that they meant that he would return bodily; but this is not stated in the text OR implied from Old testament writings. A second bodily advent or incarnation is not taught in the OT.

By the phrase "This same Jesus" they could have implied that he would return in the length of his normal 75-80 yr lifespan. We have been taught that by the words 'this same Jesus' and 'in the same manner as you have seen him Go" indicate that he would return descening bodily from a cloud.
BUT, that is not stated, nor neccesarily implied to the original first century Jewish/disciple audience who would have associated the cloud with the Presence of the God of Heaven.

INDUCTIVE and OBJECTIVE study DEMANDS that we ask the text other questions while seeking greek word definitions; diagramation of sentences along with paragraph and book context as well as the context of prophetic fulfillments to see if other interpretations/applications could give a better and different understanding.
Does "shall come in like manner as you have seen Him (God) go into Heaven" refer to the presence and cloud of God going into heaven, or does it have to refer to the bodily descent from the cloud? It is not clearly stated!!

Two advents were not taught; but two natures of Christs single advent were taught in the prophecies about him. On one hand; a fierce judge bringing judgment and even demanding the lives (deut 18; Acts 3) and vengeance (Deut 32;Isaiah 59; Isaiah 61) of those who would not believe in him as God (first of his own people) and upon those who persecuted His (new covenant) people...(Isaiah 59) and on the other hand the prince of LIFE; Prince of Peace preaching love FROM God, complete forgiveness, acceptance and help from God for ALL men; love for man; eternal life; being children of God, generation after generation; world or age without end as Paul would say in one of his letters.


By the phrase; this same Jesus whom they had known, the angels would have unified the Christ who taught and lived Peace; forgiveness, Love, laughter, toleence; life; with the King/God who was to bring retribution against those who hated Him; Hated God; and who would bring Deliverence from the oppression of the law; from being persecuted and killed that was described in Isaiah 59. He even began his opposition against the oppression of the religious lawmakers when he overturned their tables and drove them out of the temples.

Since the angels spoke these words to the people within the first century; these first century generation also would logically be the ones to whom this return was addressed. But this also is not stated. It is however implied and permitted by the truth of one advent (the acceptable year or lifespan of the Lord) involving the 2 natures in the prophecies about Him. In Psalms it says that a (single) seed shall serve Him

Psa 22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. (lifespan or 40 yrs)
Elsewhere it says; a short work he would perform on the earth. Numerous other similar confirming scriptures could be sourced. Paul quotes from Isaiah 59 in Romans 11 Where God promises deliverence by his right arm (Jesus) from the injustice from the judaizers and this deliverence is stated (prophesied) to occur in the same time period in which Jacobs (mankinds) iniquities or sins are removed (at the incarnation and cross) and through faith.



Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
The 'so' is grammatically attatched to the 'like manner' in which he went into heaven which was 'in a cloud'.
The idea of his returning from heaven in a cloud is also repeated in the Olivet in Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And it is in this section where Jesus declared emphatically that all these things would occur within that Genea (single lifespan generation) (not genos which scofield intentionally misdefines for this verse)
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation (Genea) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
It was noted by Tacticus (Roman historian) and by Josephus and repeated by Eusebius that in the fall of 66 AD, around sunset of a said time/season the clouds at sunset began swirling and making formations in the figures of Roman soldiers, Chariots, horses; swords and so forth. Tacticus even made note that if it had not been for these things being so openly apparent and seen by the whole region, he would consider himself a lunatic for including them in his journal. This is a secular historian.

It is very possibe that this premonition and images were part of his coming in the clouds; revealing himself as God/Creator, controller of heaven AND that he would fulfill his judgment 'bodily' through the Roman armies. It is even possible that he did indeed manfest himself physically either to lead the escaping Christians out of Judea or in participation with the armies; BUT in deut 32:42, it was prophesied that he would accomplish his vengeance and bear his sword of killing THROUGH the minds of the leaders of Israels enemies....The Romans.

Jesus had stated that he came not to abolish the law; but to fulfill the law. We sometimes read where this is referring to his 'upholding' the law; but it is stated that he would come to fulfill the prophesies included in the law.
Elsewhere in Jesus usage and reference to the law (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=law&t=KJV&csr=10&sf=5) was not referring to the 10 commandments but to the complete set of instructions given by Moses and the prophets to the nation and particularly to the book of Deuteronomy. Moses delivered before they crossed the Jordan river. Much of this is in the Book of Dueteronomy which would be placed in the ARK as a testimony AGAINST them. http://www.blueletterbible.com is a great resource for being a Berean.

In the testimony of the Law which Jesus said that he had come to fulfill; it was stated that the nation would eventually fail in keeping the law (and be utterly destroyed (Duet chs 4 & 5; 18 and 31(esp vs 29); They would first be judged and recieve the curses of Deut 29 (which Daniel confesses in chapter 9 was the babylonian destruction and captivity). After the babylonian captivity; and confession (Deut 30:1-4) by Daniel (ch 9); Ezra and Nehemiah, they would return to the land where sometime afterward the HOUSES and people of the sons of Israel were to recieve a circumcision of the heart through the indwelling and visitation of God. The 'national' covenant was broken as stated by Jeremiah and proven by the removal of the Ark.

This circumcision of the heart is in Deut 30 which Paul quotes in Romans 10 as having occured in and through the filling of the Holy Spirit; i.e. God and His sons Spirit.
The time-span between Deut 30 and the 'latter end' of the nation of Deut 32 (when it performed idolatry by continuing to sacrifice animals after the cross) is not given in Deuteronomy, but is given in various parallel chapters of Daniel. These as well as Deut 32 refer to the Romans as being the fourth kingdom in command during the last generation of the houses of Israel/Judah and the last prophecies of the law. Again; when Jesus stated that he came to fulfill the law; he also had to come to fulfill the prophesied judgment that was contained in the latter chapters of the law.

Circling back around to acts 1:11; the manner in which they saw him go into heaven was 'in the clouds' of the presence of God; thus the manner in which they would see him come was 'in the clouds' of the presence of God. .
The context of the first century occurance of this return "in the clouds" is supported by another first century fulfillment of the "times and the seasons commemorating the establishment of the Jewish nation and this question being within the same section of scripture.

The disciples had previously asked if Jesus would now restore the kingdom to Israel. And, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me.


Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
In knowing much of the OT and in having had the scriptures and the prophecies about Jesus and the end of the mosaic covenant opened to them by Jesus after he was raised, they would have understood that the mosaic covenant nation was ended and they were in its last generation. This is inferred by Peter in Acts 3 as he quotes from Deut 18. In addition, the leadership of the mosaic covenant priesthood was soundly in leadership of the people at that present time. Thus, they would not have been asking if Christ would restore the kingdom to the Priesthood and kings of a national Israel who's covenant was broken and ending. Though this is commonly taught as what they were asking. They would have been asking if Jesus was going to restore the kingdom of God to people LIKE ISRAEL the individaul who walked with God in Peace and protection and who had a transformed life. They had already heard him tell the pharisees that the kingdom was to be taken from them and given to ones bearing the fruit of God's Love and Spirit; I.E, the seed and children of all nations the Good God.

Several times in the OT these people are described as the people of blessing; such as in Isaiah 61. They (we who believe in God and his incarnate representation) are the latter son and of a seed like Isaac, Jacob, Ephraim and the forever people drawn from all nations of Daniel 7 who continue generation after generation.

Thus, the disciples were asking if the kingdom was now ( in connection with vs 5; not many days hence;) going to be fulfilling the prophecies of Daniel 7; 26-28 and the 'kingdom of the God of love' taken from the house of Israel and given to the Spiritual seed of the adoption of sons (John 1:13) like the individual renamed "Israel". This is the 'all Israel' of all nations who would be 'saved' and released by the Deliverer coming in the form of the Roman armies to Zion.(in Isaiah 59 and Romans 11)

Jesus' reply was that it was not for them (except John;) to experientially KNOW (all) the times and seasons which the father had set beforehand. BUT, they would recieve power when the Holy Spriit would come upon them. (At Pentacost)

The phrase 'times and seasons' was a phrase that a Jewish person would recognize as the 'times and seasons' of the jewish civil and religious calanders. Jesus was crucified on the begining of the religious calander at passover; all of the disciples would recieve power at Pentecost and be 'baptized' in the Holy Spirit of God. concluding the spring/summer 'times and season'. Then to commemorate the beginnings of the mosaic covenant nation 40 yrs later, the fall feasts and times were established. These fall feasts were fullfilled 40 yrs (a generation; Ps 90:2) after Christ's fulfillment of the passover as the JUDGMENT SAT (was finalized) and the favor of God's blessing was openly shown to favor the spiritual seed of Israel and of Peace and children born of the will of God of all tongues/languages/nations while judgment came upon the principles of the corporal mosaic covenant and upon those who continued to hate him and continued to sacrifice after the events of Christ. All of the disciples (except John ) died before 70 AD and would not experientially KNOW ALL the jewish times and seasons. John 'remained' till he came and afterwards.

Thus; both these projections in the first part of Acts; his coming in the clouds AND his restoration of the kingdom of God to individuals of the similar spiritual seed and experience as the individual man named Israel CAN be shown to have occured in the first century and in the 'seed' and generation of Christ when the kingdom was taken from the talmudic pharisees groups and given to the international forgiven sons of God..

One should continue to ask the Lord/Spirit who is the direct teacher of new covenant people for help in continued inductive and objective research to further support or confirm these concepts.

It's possible this may either cause some to take up stones; like they did against Stephen or possibly cause some to 'repent' and change direction like Peters sermon did and to take full embodiment of the kingdom.

It's written for encouragement to those who are drawn to it and for a prick for others who may later come to agree with.

This is not to imply that Christ has left us; but rather that He Never left.

What do you all think; Does Acts 1:11 teach a future bodily return or did it teach his coming in the clouds along with the end of the 'times and seasons' a few verses earlier.??

Thanks for reading.

[Gil]

Howdy ETD32,


Gil > The Father was within Jesus now Jesus is within the Father.
He disappeared in a cloud of witnesses and returned in a cloud of witnesses.
The old creation destroyed and the new creation made manifest in AD70.
It was a Bodily return in AD70 wasn't it?

The Last Adam was made manifest within a Physical ,spiritual Body.
He returned in a Spiritual,physical Body.

The story is about the SEED.

Gil

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Howdy ETD32,

It was a Bodily return in AD70 wasn't it?

The Last Adam was made manifest within a Physical ,spiritual Body.
He returned in a Spiritual,physical Body.

The story is about the SEED.

Gil

You'll have to explain further.
Specifically with respect to Acts 1:11; I think/feel that it was referring to his return 'in the clouds'; but yes; that could have had an inferrence to the spiritual 'cloud' of the presence of God within the individual/associate body of Christ of the church of Peace and Life. And it is possible that he returned individually and bodily (physically manifest) in Judea to lead them out of Judea and across the Jordan.

[Gil]

Howdy ETD32,

The Clouds is an interesting subject.
For me as a preterist and to understand anything Post AD70
After the destruction of Jerusalem and her Temple , understanding
Paul and his teachings seemed the way to go. For me anyway.
When I say understanding Paul ,I mean to my own understanding and
point of view. Let me re-read your first post over again and I will respond.

Quote: ETD32 > [ You'll have to explain further.
Specifically with respect to Acts 1:11; I think/feel that it was referring to his return 'in the clouds'; but yes; that could have had an inferrence to the spiritual 'cloud' of the presence of God within the individual/associate body of Christ of the church of Peace and Life.]

Gil > I see them as clouds of witnesses. (clouds meaning multitudes).
He left with a cloud and returned within a cloud.
If you follow Paul's concepts, we as individuals and as a Whole are the
Literal Body of Christ upon the earth now.
We are the witnesses whom he is within.

The Whole of Paul's concept of the BOC is a complete New Creation.
A major undertaking.

Quote: ETD32 > [ And it is possible that he returned individually and bodily (physically manifest) in Judea to lead them out of Judea and across the Jordan.]

Gil > I don't quite follow you here. Are you referring to entering the promised land at Moses death?

Gil

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Quote: ETD32 > [ You'll have to explain further
[QUOTE=Gil;25735]Specifically with respect to Acts 1:11; I think/feel that it was referring to his return 'in the clouds'; but yes; that could have had an inferrence to the spiritual 'cloud' of the presence of God within the individual/associate body of Christ of the church of Peace and Life.].
I agree but with a primary focus from Acts 1:11 being on his coming 'in the clouds' meaning in the cloud formations of the Roman soldiers in I think 66 AD.

An interesting analogy is that God also came in the 'FIRE" of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. The fire is something that the national covenant Israelites of the mosaic covenant saw but didn't have within them. Deut 5:22-26; 18:16. Deut fire (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=fire&t=KJV&csr=Deu) paraphrasing; They said ; rightly; IF ever we shall see this fire again or hear the words of God again; then we'll know that this way of keeping laws and driving out and killing 'wicked people' which you've given us and which we've heard from the burning moutain are not the way of Life; and we shall surely die. (cease).
The fire of the words that came from the mountain in Moses day are contrasted against the fire of the words of Jesus and the Holy Spirit that came to them at Pentecost of the NC. "Now the Lord is the Spirit".


Gil > I see them as clouds of witnesses. (clouds meaning multitudes).
He left with a cloud and returned within a cloud.
If you follow Paul's concepts, we as individuals and as a Whole are the
Literal Body of Christ upon the earth now.
We are the witnesses whom he is within.

The Whole of Paul's concept of the BOC is a complete New Creation.
A major undertaking.
Yes; I agree but in a sense they were a 'cloud of witnesses' even before these words were spoken OR especially after Pentacost. I think the 'cloud of witnesses' includes pre-cross saints as mentioned in Hebrews 12 I think. With primary respect to Acts 1:11 and in it's context of the preceding verses, I think/feel it's talking of his coming 'with clouds' that was referred to in the Olivet and fulfilled just prior to the Roman invasion.

On an intersting note; in some blog software, a person can collect a group of peoples blogs or facebook accounts which they follow and put them in their "Cloud" of interest.


Quote: ETD32 > [ And it is possible that he returned individually and bodily (physically manifest) in Judea to lead them out of Judea and across the Jordan.]

Gil > I don't quite follow you here. Are you referring to entering the promised land at Moses death?

No; the fulfillment of the New covenant was the counterfulfillment of the inferior mosiac covenant times and seasons. Josephus (I think) or Eusebius had said that there were strange (unknown) men in Jerusalem at that time of around 65+ . I think it is Eusebius who says that they were led back across the Jordan to Pella from west to east; thereby confirming their faith in opposition with the principles/foundations of the conditional/corporal/national blessings of the Mosaic covenant. This was the topic of the preceeding verses of Acts 1; the fulfilling of the 'times and seasons' which were established contrasted against the 40 yr process of the enactment of the mosaic covenant.

Just as Joshua had led them east to west; they now crossed over 'west to east' POSSIBLY led by Jesus himself or by angels or risen saints. Recall, Moses himself did not participate in the contract of the conditional / national covenant which he was instructed to deliver unto them. I believe that when he struck the rock the second time; he was showing his favor with the latter peoples of the individualized/person covenant of Mercy/Life; (aka 'new' covenant to the jews) and also with Abraham/Isaac/Israel. And God said; that since he had chosen not to glorify Him in the administration of the inferior/faulty (mosaic covenant) God said that he would be buried in the decapolis area (outside of the 'promised land'). Paul in 2cor 3 mentions that the mosaic covenant did have glory of God IN it's purposes; but then mentioned it as being the inferior way; etc.

Recall also that after he raised Lazarus; he taught from a town called Ephraim which was closer to the Jordan River.

Particularly in Hosea 11 and in Jer 31, Ephraim; the blessing to the latter peoples of all nations (of faith) and "Israel" the seed and son of blessing of God are unified.

Thank you much for the interaction:
And again; no promise on a prompt response.

[Gil]

Howdy ETD32,

Quote: ET32 > [ Thank you much for the interaction:
And again; no promise on a prompt response.]

Gil > Sounds good to me, I'm the slow responder.
wait until I reply before you do.

Gil

[The Word]

Thank you much for the interaction:
And again; no promise on a prompt response.


The Elect is a fearful name for Christians because they don't understand it. They believe they had a choice to make but why would there be scriptures indicating chosen ones or the elect. The following scriptures describe these chosen ones, those who were elected by God before creation. We know them as the prophets who came before Jesus and the saints who came after him.

Ephesians 1:
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
4: even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
5: He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
6: to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Romans 9:
28: We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.
29: For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.
30: And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

I Corinthians 1:
25: For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26: For consider your call, brethren; not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth;
27: but God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong,
28: God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
29: so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.

Mark 13:
20: And if the Lord had not shortened the days, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

22: False Christs and false prophets will arise and show signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

I Peter 1:
1: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappado'cia, Asia, and Bithyn'ia,
2: chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

Jeremiah 15:
15: Behold, I am bringing upon you a nation from afar, O house of Israel, says the LORD. It is an enduring nation, it is an ancient nation, a nation whose language you do not know, nor can you understand what they say.

Psalm 33:
12: Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!

1 John 4
6: We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

1 John 5:
19: We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one.
20: And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Romans 8:
28: We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.
29: For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.


I Corinthians 2:
7: But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glorification.
8: None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Acts 13:
47: For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, `I have set you to be a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.'"
48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Acts 4:
27: for truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
28: to do whatever thy hand and thy plan had predestined to take place.

John 15: 16
16: You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.


Nowhere in the scriptures will you find that the prophets, Jesus and us saints had a choice to make. We were predestined from before creation so any of you Christians that believe you had to make a choice for Jesus are badly mistaken. You were destined to be religious people like the religious Jews who rejected the gospel Jesus preached. An alcoholic was destined to be an alcoholic. A gay man was destined to love other men. We were created and formed in a sinful flesh that lived according to God's plans.

There's nothing you can do about this except to wait until you die in the flesh and be forgiven of all your sins. Then you will remain in God until the earth changes into a paradise for us. Then we'll all get new immortal bodies and live forever. We won't have any memories of this difficult age living in sinful flesh. You won't remember your jealousy of these chosen people or all the lies you've been speaking to each other since you were born.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

The words of the two angels are to be anylized.



4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

By the words this same Jesus; could they have meant this same entity, character, and person as God. Jesus said if you have seen him, you have seen the Father. They could have meant this same person who had miraculously fed and healed people and who had been their friend. He was coming in judgment, but not judgment against them.

I wonder if the angels could have used these words to connect and reaffirm the two characteristics of Jesus' prophesied ministry as noted in Isaiah 61.


The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty [of the fruits of the Spirit] for ashes, [ASHES OF TEMPLE] the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

How did they see him Go? It's easy to insist or desire that the angels meant 'bodily' physically and thus that Jesus would return 'bodily, physically. But the context of the surrounding verses can help understand things differently. One MUST be open to consider alternative meanings of 'in like manner as you have seen him go'.

He first ascended into a cloud and then the cloud went into the heavens.

It is to be strongly noted that the word 'cloud' in Acts 1:9 is the word nephele. [Strongs 3507] It is the word used to describe the presence of God in the cloud that led the israelites through the wilderness. If the 'cloud' had been a symbol of God's presence and power to the nation of Israel one must ask the questions openly and unbiasedly as to what the angels meant when they said that 'this same Jesus' will come in like manner as they had seen him go knowing that they had seen him ascend into the cloud [NEPHELE] of the presence of God and then into the heavens.


G3509 is general, G3507 is specific; the former denotes a great, shapeless collection of vapour obscuring the heavens; the latter designates particular and definite masses of the same, suggesting limit and form. See how the word nephele is used in blue letter bible. sometimes even in Jesus' predictions of the Olivet and his coming at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in Luke 21 and Matt 24.

Could this be forecasting the cloud formations of Roman soldiers that the residents of judea and asia minor saw?



Josephus. (75 AD) Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one-and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities
Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour.

Then also consider the word 'seen' in the phrase 'as you have seen him go'. See Definition for theaomai


G2300 (Currently Viewing)
See Definition for theoreo G2334
G2334 - word not used of an indifferent spectator, but of one who looks at a thing with interest and for a purpose; would be used of a general officially reviewing or inspecting his army
G2300 - is used of a lay spectator looking at a parade.
G2334 denotes a careful observation of details whereas G2300 denotes only perception in general


Secondly, The time context of the return in question seems to be associated with the time of the restoration of the kingdom to "Israel". This was asked a few verses earlier. Wilt thou at this time restore the kingdom again to Israel. The question is; which Israel is this? National Israel or Jacob/Israel, the individual, the symbolic representative of all sons/daughters of God reborn by faith in his character and Person and given the RIGHT to be sons/daughters of God according to John 1:12,13?...

I understand this to be the restoration to the sons of God like Israel, the individual was, but not a restoration of national covenant Israel. They were living in the last generation of that national covenant. [Deut 32] Jesus had told the Pharisees that the kingdom would be taken from them and given to those bearing it's fruit; I.E. the pleasing fruit of the Creator!!!. I.E. The fruit of the Holy Spirit through the New Covenant. Gal 5:22

That national covenant had it's latter end in 30-70 AD!! and the saints of the Most High would possess the everlasting kingdom at that time [Dan 7:24-27] The blessing to the second son of Grace [Isaac, Israel, Ephraim] over coporal, conditional law, and the restoration of the kingdom to "Israelite's" like pre-mosaic covenant Jacob/Israel the unconditionally, individually adopted and regenerated natural man. Isn't this what the Angel referred to in Revelation by saying that the kingdom is within or among men !!! thereby supporting the first century pre-70 AD context of Revelation.


Thirdly, Jesus told them that it was not for them to KNOW [EXPERIENCE] the "TIMES AND SEASONS" which the father had fixed. BUT [in contrast] they would all recieve power at the season and time of Pentecost which was one of the times and season commemorating the establishment of the mosaic covenant.

Here are some synonyms for 'know'. Using G0197 Jesus was saying that they would not [all] personally experience the times and seasons which the father had foreordained and foretyped by the feasts and festivals which commemorated the temporary mosaic covenant.



G1097 - a knowledge grounded on personal experience
G1492 - to see with the mind's eye, signifies a clear and purely mental perception
G1987 - a knowledge obtained by proximity to the thing known, cf. our understanding
G4920 - implies a native insight, knowledge gained through the five senses


The apostles would not all KNOW [experience] all these times and seasons with the exception of John. Remember what Jesus said to Peter... what if I want him [John ] to REMAIN till I come, what is that to you? JOHN REMAINED alive through the Neronic persecutions until he Came.!!! John Knew; [expereinced] all the times and seasons, but all the other apostles and many disciples fell before and during Nero's persecution. Now we interject 1 Thess 4:15-17 into the contextual understanding that John was one of the apostles who was foretold to REMAIN and that they would be caught up [in time and approved and proven status] together with those who had suffered persecution and were perfected through the proving and approving of their faith. See also Hosea 1:11,12 which is the foundation for Pauls first century letter to the Thessalonians in asia minor.



For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we [of the apostles and disciples] which are alive and remain [through Nero's and the Jews persecutions] unto the coming of the Lord [through the heads of the leaders of national Israels enemies as prophesied in Deut 32:42] shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: (Heb 12:18-21) and the dead [martyred and asleep] in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain [through Nero and the jews persecutions] shall be caught up together [judicially and victoriously speaking] with them [who are] in the clouds (Heb 12:22-23) to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be [justified by faith and perfected] with the Lord.

"Times and Seasons' was a phrase for the feasts and festivals that were commanded to be observed to commemorate the 40 yrs of wandering through the wilderness from the escape from Egypt till the crossing of the Jordan. See Lev 23 for beginnings. Likewise, Jesus crucifiction began the 40 yrs or "Times and seasons" of the replacement and overlay expereinces of the establishment and confirmation of the everlasting covenant.!! These would have culminated with the judean believers leaving judea into the wilderness (pella) and southern asia.

The restoration, fulfillment and approving of the individualized kingdom of grace and life would have been manifest with the removal of the old system and oppression while the new lay in 40 yrs of gestation, growth and proving. This is what is referred to as the 'man-child' and the child born in a day of Isaiah 66 as they recrossed Jordan 40 yrs after the cross. This is the time at the end of the 40 yrs where it says in Dan 7:24-27 that after persecution or war with the saints that the time came for the saints to posess the kingdom..of the Creator...and of positive human life victoriously..!!!! This was the deliverer coming to zion to remove ungodly religious, human and political oppression from the believers.!!! See Isaiah 59 as quoted by Paul in Romans 11:26. This was the restoration of the kingdom to 'Israel" of the reborn children of God through faith in Christ... at the end of the 40 yrs. These bore the promises of the new covenant and new creation of the new ordinances. They were 'trees of righteousnes' and that righteousness by faith in the person and entity of Christ, not law...

Is it possible that many have misunderstood what the angels intended by the words 'in like manner' as you have seen him go as having to refer to a physical, bodily return. We need to comtemplate the possibility of a different understanding especially knowing what the clouid symbolized to the people of religious climate and that Jesus had already foretold them and the high priests [in Matt 26] of his coming [to them] in the 'clouds' [nephele] of heaven with great power and glory!!...at the time of the destruction of the temple.

[duxrow]

:sCh_supersmilie:Just a thought -- when Elijah was leaving by whirlwind, he told Elisha that if he SAW him 'taken up', he'd
get the double portion. That's what happened, and Elisha 'miracles' were twice that of Elijah. Right?

2King2:9: And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. 2:10: And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.

It's a type or figure of what the angels said: Right? Now are we looking for a cloudy day?? :winking0071:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The words of the two angels are to be anylized.

That's always a good idea! :thumb:



By the words this same Jesus; could they have meant this same entity, character, and person as God. Jesus said if you have seen him, you have seen the Father. They could have meant this same person who had miraculously fed and healed people and who had been their friend. He was coming in judgment, but not judgment against them.

I wonder if the angels could have used these words to connect and reaffirm the two characteristics of Jesus' prophesied ministry as noted in Isaiah 61.

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty [of the fruits of the Spirit] for ashes, [ASHES OF TEMPLE] the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.
How did they see him Go? It's easy to insist or desire that the angels meant 'bodily' physically and thus that Jesus would return 'bodily, physically. But the context of the surrounding verses can help understand things differently. One MUST be open to consider alternative meanings of 'in like manner as you have seen him go'.

He first ascended into a cloud and then the cloud went into the heavens.

That's actually a pretty good interpretation of that passage. A lot of futurists try to say that Jesus quit quoting in the middle of the second verse, just before "and the day of vengeance of our God" because as "proof" that there would be a 2000+ year gap between that and the first part of the passage. But that's patently absurd because Jesus spoke of the "days of vengeance" later in the same book as pertaining to the first century:
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

If folks can't understand the Bible when it says something as plain and obvious as this, what hope is there for them to understand any of it?



It is to be strongly noted that the word 'cloud' in Acts 1:9 is the word nephele. [Strongs 3507] It is the word used to describe the presence of God in the cloud that led the israelites through the wilderness. If the 'cloud' had been a symbol of God's presence and power to the nation of Israel one must ask the questions openly and unbiasedly as to what the angels meant when they said that 'this same Jesus' will come in like manner as they had seen him go knowing that they had seen him ascend into the cloud [NEPHELE] of the presence of God and then into the heavens.

G3509 is general, G3507 is specific; the former denotes a great, shapeless collection of vapour obscuring the heavens; the latter designates particular and definite masses of the same, suggesting limit and form. See how the word nephele is used in blue letter bible. sometimes even in Jesus' predictions of the Olivet and his coming at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in Luke 21 and Matt 24.

Could this be forecasting the cloud formations of Roman soldiers that the residents of judea and asia minor saw?


We know "clouds" are used as a symbol of invading armies in the OT:
Jeremiah 4:11 At that time shall it be said to this people and to Jerusalem, A dry wind of the high places in the wilderness toward the daughter of my people, not to fan, nor to cleanse, 12 Even a full wind from those places shall come unto me: now also will I give sentence against them. 13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled. 14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?

But on the other hand, there is no indication in Acts 1 that this was the meaning intended. It's all too easy to read desired interpretations into the text. Just look at what the Futurists have done! Sometimes it's better to just accept that the Bible is wrong. Indeed, this is a primary test of intellectual integrity in my book. Only the delusional could deny that the Bible contains errors. And if we know it contains errors, why would we try to force all the pieces to fit our interpretation?



Secondly, The time context of the return in question seems to be associated with the time of the restoration of the kingdom to "Israel". This was asked a few verses earlier. Wilt thou at this time restore the kingdom again to Israel. The question is; which Israel is this? National Israel or Jacob/Israel, the individual, the symbolic representative of all sons/daughters of God reborn by faith in his character and Person and given the RIGHT to be sons/daughters of God according to John 1:12,13?...

I understand this to be the restoration to the sons of God like Israel, the individual was, but not a restoration of national covenant Israel. They were living in the last generation of that national covenant. [Deut 32] Jesus had told the Pharisees that the kingdom would be taken from them and given to those bearing it's fruit; I.E. the pleasing fruit of the Creator!!!. I.E. The fruit of the Holy Spirit through the New Covenant. Gal 5:22

That national covenant had it's latter end in 30-70 AD!! and the saints of the Most High would possess the everlasting kingdom at that time [Dan 7:24-27] The blessing to the second son of Grace [Isaac, Israel, Ephraim] over coporal, conditional law, and the restoration of the kingdom to "Israelite's" like pre-mosaic covenant Jacob/Israel the unconditionally, individually adopted and regenerated natural man. Isn't this what the Angel referred to in Revelation by saying that the kingdom is within or among men !!! thereby supporting the first century pre-70 AD context of Revelation.

Well stated. From a Biblical perspective, the Church is the true Israel and the fulfillment of all the prophecies concerning "God's people." Christianity is the New Covenant! What could be more obvious? Peter, Paul, James, John and all the first century believers were the "faithful remnant." The unbelievers suffered judgment just as promised.



Thirdly, Jesus told them that it was not for them to KNOW [EXPERIENCE] the "TIMES AND SEASONS" which the father had fixed. BUT [in contrast] they would all recieve power at the season and time of Pentecost which was one of the times and season commemorating the establishment of the mosaic covenant.

Here are some synonyms for 'know'. Using G0197 Jesus was saying that they would not [all] personally experience the times and seasons which the father had foreordained and foretyped by the feasts and festivals which commemorated the temporary mosaic covenant.

The apostles would not all KNOW [experience] all these times and seasons with the exception of John. Remember what Jesus said to Peter... what if I want him [John ] to REMAIN till I come, what is that to you? JOHN REMAINED alive through the Neronic persecutions until he Came.!!! John Knew; [expereinced] all the times and seasons, but all the other apostles and many disciples fell before and during Nero's persecution. Now we interject 1 Thess 4:15-17 into the contextual understanding that John was one of the apostles who was foretold to REMAIN and that they would be caught up [in time and approved and proven status] together with those who had suffered persecution and were perfected through the proving and approving of their faith. See also Hosea 1:11,12 which is the foundation for Pauls first century letter to the Thessalonians in asia minor.

That's a very satisfying interpretation of "know." But the Bible seems inconsistent on this point. Paul said that the Lord's Supper should be practiced "until he comes." The church didn't quit that in 70 AD! And there are big problems with other passages. So I've concluded Biblical eschatology is logically incoherent. Preterism is far and away the best - I've never seen any other system come close - but it's got some pretty serious problems too.



"Times and Seasons' was a phrase for the feasts and festivals that were commanded to be observed to commemorate the 40 yrs of wandering through the wilderness from the escape from Egypt till the crossing of the Jordan. See Lev 23 for beginnings. Likewise, Jesus crucifiction began the 40 yrs or "Times and seasons" of the replacement and overlay expereinces of the establishment and confirmation of the everlasting covenant.!! These would have culminated with the judean believers leaving judea into the wilderness (pella) and southern asia.

That makes good sense.



The restoration, fulfillment and approving of the individualized kingdom of grace and life would have been manifest with the removal of the old system and oppression while the new lay in 40 yrs of gestation, growth and proving. This is what is referred to as the 'man-child' and the child born in a day of Isaiah 66 as they recrossed Jordan 40 yrs after the cross. This is the time at the end of the 40 yrs where it says in Dan 7:24-27 that after persecution or war with the saints that the time came for the saints to posess the kingdom..of the Creator...and of positive human life victoriously..!!!! This was the deliverer coming to zion to remove ungodly religious, human and political oppression from the believers.!!! See Isaiah 59 as quoted by Paul in Romans 11:26. This was the restoration of the kingdom to 'Israel" of the reborn children of God through faith in Christ... at the end of the 40 yrs. These bore the promises of the new covenant and new creation of the new ordinances. They were 'trees of righteousnes' and that righteousness by faith in the person and entity of Christ, not law...

That's very strong typology, and it's particularly impressive because it was established in history. The Christians couldn't just make it up to fit the OT pattern.



Is it possible that many have misunderstood what the angels intended by the words 'in like manner' as you have seen him go as having to refer to a physical, bodily return. We need to comtemplate the possibility of a different understanding especially knowing what the clouid symbolized to the people of religious climate and that Jesus had already foretold them and the high priests [in Matt 26] of his coming [to them] in the 'clouds' [nephele] of heaven with great power and glory!!...at the time of the destruction of the temple.
Yes it is possible, and many of your comments are very good, but I still don't feel like you made the case for the specific assertion that he would "come in like manner" doesn't mean "in a visible physical form."

[sylvius]

That's always a good idea! :thumb:



First thing to acknowledge: It is no history.
(Luke and also Acts being written years after the destruction of the Temple.)

The "forty days" of verse 3 being "metahistrocal" days, 4/5 of the 50 days from Jesus' sepulture (at the end of the sixth day of the week) until Pentecost (the sixth day of Jewish month Sivan).

v.9, "a cloud took him away from their eyes."
v.11, "This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven"

writtten to fit with Luke 21:27,
And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
to Daniel 7:13. there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man,

with the clouds of heaven = עִם-עֲנָנֵי שְׁמַיָּא, 'im ananei sh'maya". (Aramaic)

"anan", cloud, which is in the name Ananias .

Cloud is a state of aggregation of water, "mayim",
"mayim" lie4k the letter "mem", symbol of time.

"mem' = 40 (coinciding the forty days)

Secret of Daniel: the closed "mem", "mem s'tumah", that turns into an outstretched "nun" , "nun p'shutah". (Dandiel 12:13)

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Yes it is possible, and many of your comments are very good, but I still don't feel like you made the case for the specific assertion that he would "come in like manner" doesn't mean "in a visible physical form."

If we allow ourselves to associate the prophecies of his coming through the minds of the leaders [Roman leaders] of his enemies, [[his enemies being the judaizers and provokers of the Christians [Deut 32:21]] as prophesied in Deut 32:42; then this mention of his coming in the clouds and 'in like manner' as they had seen him go is giving further and repetetive information about his coming through the minds of the leaders of their enemies during the last generation of the mosaic covenant.

Here is Deut 32:42 in the NKJV.
41 If I whet My glittering sword,
And My hand takes hold on judgment,
I will render vengeance to My enemies,
And repay those who hate Me.
42 I will make My arrows drunk with blood,
And My sword shall devour flesh,
With the blood of the slain and the captives,
From the heads of the leaders of the enemy.”’

NOT PERSONALLY PHYSICALLY, BODILY, but through the heads of the leaders of the enemy as later manifest in the cloud formations.

And that this perspective of his coming through the Roman armies is supported by the supernatural cloud formations as recorded by Josephes


Josephus. (75 AD) Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one-and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour.

And that this perspective would be even further supported by Jesus's conversation with Pilate when he affirmed that he was a King, and that as of then, his kingdom was not from HENCE. The place of their conversation [hence] was Pilates seat of judgment and authority. Wasn't Jesus inferring and again re-affirming that his Kingdom would be administered from HENCE, meaning through the Roman armies.


28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.

29 Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?

30 They answered and said unto him, If he were not a malefactor, we would not have delivered him up unto thee.

31 Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:

32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.

33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?

34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?

35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

If Jesus was just again repeating that his kingdom was not [now] of this [kosmos] he would have repeated the world kosmos. But he used the word enteuthen, [hence] which meant their exact or immediate location.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

I believe an addtional factor of understanding this section is that people relate vs 7 with Matt 24 and Mark 13.


Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

In another thread we mentioned the importance of the word OF. Jesus was not stating that no man would know the day nor the hour, but that no man would know all the details, experiences, freedoms and spiritual changes OF that day and hour.

I believe Jesus was referring or associating with Zech 14:6,7 which referred to the change and proving of the ordinances after saints posessed the kingdom of Dan 7 and after 70 AD.


And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the light shall not be clear, [nor] dark:

But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, [that] at evening time it shall be light.

We can also note the difference between the word KNOW as was used in Acts 1:7 with how it is Math and Mark.

In Matt and Mark it is eido which is explained and compared below. They would not be able to fully comprehend all the relief from oppression and the change in ordinances and transfer of power until they actually historically happened.


See Definition for ginosko G1097
See Definition for eido G1492 (Currently Viewing)
See Definition for epistamai G1987
See Definition for suniemi G4920

G1097 - a knowledge grounded on personal experience
G1492 - to see with the mind's eye, signifies a clear and purely mental perception
G1987 - a knowledge obtained by proximity to the thing known, cf. our understanding
G4920 - implies a native insight, knowledge gained through the five senses

[sylvius]

Acts 1:7 has to be read in combination with verse 8,

Οὐχ ὑμῶν ἐστιν γνῶναι χρόνους ἢ καιροὺς οὓς ὁ πατὴρ ἔθετο ἐν τῇ ἰδίᾳ ἐξουσίᾳ ἀλλὰ λήμψεσθε δύναμιν ἐπελθόντος τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος ἐφ' ὑμᾶς, καὶ ἔσεσθέ μου μάρτυρες ἔν τε Ἰερουσαλὴμ καὶ [ἐν] πάσῃ τῇ Ἰουδαίᾳ καὶ Σαμαρείᾳ καὶ ἕως ἐσχάτου τῆς γῆς.

It is not for you to know (...) but you will accept (receive) power of the holy spirit coming upoon you.

This makes think of what Rashi said on Genesis 2:2,


And God completed on the seventh day: Rabbi Simon said: [A human being of] flesh and blood, who cannot [exactly] know his times and his moments, must add from the profane to the holy [i.e., he must add some time to the Sabbath.] The Holy One, blessed be He, Who knows His times and His moments [exactly], entered it [the Sabbath] within a hairbreadth, and it therefore appeared as if He completed it [His work] on that day.

"it therefore appeared as if He completed it [His work] on that day" --
but he completed it on the sixth.

the sixth day = "yom hashishi"

Rashi:

Scripture added a “hey” on the sixth [day], at the completion of the Creation, to tell us that He stipulated with them, [“you were created] on the condition that Israel accept the Five Books of the Torah.” [The numerical value of the “hey” is five.] (Tanchuma Bereishith 1). Another explanation for “the sixth day” : They [the works of creation] were all suspended until the “sixth day,” referring to the sixth day of Sivan, which was prepared for the giving of the Torah (Shab. 88a). [The“hey” is the definite article, alluding to the well-known sixth day, the sixth day of Sivan, when the Torah was given (ad loc.).]

The sixth day of Sivan = Pentecost.

Acts 2:2,
Καὶ ἐν τῷ συμπληροῦσθαι τὴν ἡμέραν τῆς πεντηκοστῆς ἦσαν πάντες ὁμοῦ ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτό.

And when the day of Pentecost was completely filled, they were all with one accord in one place.

[duxrow]

The 50day count-down to Pentecost began when the High Priest WAVED the firstfruits, Lev23:11 and must have coincided with the Resurrection (so it was 'Easter' when Caiphas waived!)

The 72 hrs when Jesus entombed, just preceded the regular weekly sabbath.

564

[sylvius]

The 50day count-down to Pentecost began when the High Priest WAVED the firstfruits, Lev23:11 and must have coincided with the Resurrection (so it was 'Easter' when Caiphas waived!)

The 72 hrs when Jesus entombed, just preceded the regular weekly sabbath.



According to John Jesus was crucified on the 14th of Nisan, but according to the synoptici on the 15th = first day of Passover.

The omer-count starts at the beginning of the second day of Passover.

Rashi on Leviticus 23:11,

on the day after the rest day: מִמָּחֳרַת הַשַּׁבָּת. On the day after the first holy day of Passover, [since a holy festival day is also שַׁבָָּת, rest day , in Scripture]. For if you say [that it means] the “Sabbath of Creation” [i.e., the actual Sabbath, the seventh day of the week], you would not know which one. - [Men. 66a]
So according to the synoptici (of whom Luke is one) with Jesus' sepulture, but according to John with the finding of the empty grave.

[duxrow]

According to John Jesus was crucified on the 14th of Nisan, but according to the synoptici on the 15th = first day of Passover.

The omer-count starts at the beginning of the second day of Passover. Rashi on Leviticus 23:11,
So according to the synoptici (of whom Luke is one) with Jesus' sepulture, but according to John with the finding of the empty grave.
:stop:
Sorry, not agreeing with Rashi, but based on Exodus 12:3-6.
EX12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
The Passover Lamb a figure of Christ, the Lamb of God as John-Baptist said.

The day AFTER they killed the lamb was 1st day of Unleavened Bread -- a High Sabbath. Eating Bread w/o leaven (old leaven of hypocrisy). :thumb:

[sylvius]

:stop:
Sorry, not agreeing with Rashi, but based on Exodus 12:3-6.
EX12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
The Passover Lamb a figure of Christ, the Lamb of God as John-Baptist said.

The day AFTER they killed the lamb was 1st day of Unleavened Bread -- a High Sabbath. Eating Bread w/o leaven (old leaven of hypocrisy). :thumb:

In the synoptical account he wasn't passover-lamb.

Even not a lamb.

It seems to be an invention of John.


Luke 22
7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

[duxrow]

In the synoptical account he wasn't passover-lamb.

Even not a lamb.
Just because he doesn't say "lamb", doesn't mean it isn't so..
It seems to be an invention of John.
Luke 22
7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
The Three Feasts had multiple names! Passover/Unleavened Bread had difference nuance, but referred to 1st Feast. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
:yo:
Am open to diff POV, sylvius, but what exactly was supposed to happen on the 33rd day of lag omer? Jesus had already risen, so where does the 3x16 figure?:confused:

[sylvius]

:yo:
Am open to diff POV, sylvius, but what exactly was supposed to happen on the 33rd day of lag omer? Jesus had already risen, so where does the 3x16 figure?:confused:

I was not right when saying "invention of John" ,
1Corinthinas 5:7,
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

I don't know whether "lag ba'omer" was celebrated in Jesus' day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag_BaOmer


The Talmud[3] states that during the time of Rabbi Akiva, 24,000 of his students died from a divinely sent plague during the counting of the Omer. The Talmud then goes on to say that this was because they did not show proper respect to one another, befitting their level; they begrudged each other the spiritual levels attained by their comrades. Jews celebrate Lag BaOmer, the 33rd day of the count, to celebrate the end of the deaths

Although it is said that these 24.000 are the same as those that died as consequnece of the harlotry with the daughters of Moab , Numbers 25:9,
. Those that died in the plague numbered twenty four thousand.

[duxrow]

The Talmud[3] states that during the time of Rabbi Akiva, 24,000 of his students died from a divinely sent plague during the counting of the Omer. The Talmud then goes on to say that this was because they did not show proper respect to one another, befitting their level; they begrudged each other the spiritual levels attained by their comrades. Jews celebrate Lag BaOmer, the 33rd day of the count, to celebrate the end of the deaths
:arghh:
A DIVINE PLAGUE!! Sent by the "god of this world", Satan -- they didn't know about him in the OT, and after all, he was right there in Heaven when the Job biz developed.. so why would they? But NOW we know who's the source of all the trouble. Right? :winking0071:

p.s. The NEW LEAVEN is the same as the 'hidden' leaven of Matt 13:33. You must have this new leaven in order to Rise and meet the Lord in the air!

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

These two verses below refer to and give information, and descriptive spiritual atmoshpere and 'climate' to the time of the destruction of the temple and desolation of Jerusalem.


Zech 14:6,7 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the light shall not be clear, [nor] dark:

But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, [that] at evening time it shall be light.

So many other verses could be coincidental with this time. Isaiah 61:3 comes to mind as well as parts of Isaiah 65 and 66.


3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, [ashes fo the temple] the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.
It is only afterwards that they would 'know' [eido]and better understand the freedom from oppression of corporal religious law.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

If we allow ourselves to associate the prophecies of his coming through the minds of the leaders [Roman leaders] of his enemies, [[his enemies being the judaizers and provokers of the Christians [Deut 32:21]] as prophesied in Deut 32:42; then this mention of his coming in the clouds and 'in like manner' as they had seen him go is giving further and repetetive information about his coming through the minds of the leaders of their enemies during the last generation of the mosaic covenant.

Here is Deut 32:42 in the NKJV.
41 If I whet My glittering sword,
And My hand takes hold on judgment,
I will render vengeance to My enemies,
And repay those who hate Me.
42 I will make My arrows drunk with blood,
And My sword shall devour flesh,
With the blood of the slain and the captives,
From the heads of the leaders of the enemy.”’NOT PERSONALLY PHYSICALLY, BODILY, but through the heads of the leaders of the enemy as later manifest in the cloud formations.

And that this perspective of his coming through the Roman armies is supported by the supernatural cloud formations as recorded by Josephes



Josephus. (75 AD) Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one-and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour.

And this perspective of his coming through the Roman armies would be even further supported by Jesus's conversation with Pilate when he affirmed that he was a King, but that as of then, his kingdom was not from HENCE. The place of their conversation [hence] was Pilates seat of judgment and authority. Wasn't Jesus inferring and again re-affirming that his Kingdom would be administered from HENCE, meaning through the Roman armies?.



28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.

29 Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?

30 They answered and said unto him, If he were not a malefactor, we would not have delivered him up unto thee.

31 Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:

32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.

33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?

34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?

35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. If Jesus was just again repeating that his kingdom was not [now] of this [kosmos] he would have repeated the world kosmos. But he used the word enteuthen, [hence] which meant their exact or immediate location.

Further support from Jesus himself that his so called second coming was a first century event and through the Roman armies.