Spiritual Crucifixion of the Lord Jesus; a look at Hebrews 6

[TheForgiven]

Greetings my friends. I know that I spend a great deal of time on the eschatology forum, I think it's time I shifted towards other discussions.

A member on the eschatology forum seems to teach of something along the lines of re-crucifixion of the Lord Jesus. If I understand his idealogy, he believes that an Apostate Christ is guilty of re-crucifying Jesus all over again. His belief in this comes from Hebrews 5 - 6:

9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest 'according to the order of Melchizedek,' 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. 1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

I high lighted the text in red for our discussion.

Question: Is the author of Hebrews suggesting a reality of a 2nd crucifixion of an Apostate (falls away)?

The answer, in my opinion, is no. Paul (presumed author to the Hebrews) was not suggesting a reality of a person falling away, resulting in the "spiritual" crucifixion of Christ. He's saying that any thought or attempt to revert back to the beginning elementary teachings of salvation (laying on of hands, baptisms, washings, etc.) is the same as asking for another rebirth; hence, this would make Jesus look pretty foolish for having to die twice for the same person.

Scripture affirms that Jesus died "ONCE" for all sin. So any thought of Him dying again, even for an Apostate, is false. Just as a person cannot be reborn physically, one cannot be reborn spiritually once he has already been spiritually reborn the first time. Any such notion or attempt makes Jesus look like a fool.

What say you all my friends?

Joe

[Brother Les]

Hebrews is where Arminians get their thought of being able to 'fall away' from Christ and loose their Faith and Belief and thus their Salvation status. This is the ultimate of using the 'Power' of 'FREE WILL'.

Calvins have their TULIP of limited atonment and OSAS.


Both are right to a point....

Thus making themselves wrong in the New Covenant Application.


We lose the thought of audience relevance in reading 'Hebrews' and misplace who it was written to and the timeline involved. The First Century Christian Hebrews were worshipping under the sytem of The Mosaic Temple Cultus AND Jesus Christ. The two could not be seperated if you were a Jewish (not Gentile) member of the Jerusalem Church. For we should know that the Temple Cultus had Standing as long as The Temple stood. Jews at this time were under The Law of Moses and had been/were married to YHWH under the OC contract. Even though the Husband, Jesus Christ/YHWH was dead to and from His OC wife, the terms and completion of the Marriage contract had not been completely filled. As the Hebrews being 'Jewish Christians', we must remember that they were straddling two covenants at the same time. One, waxing old and fading away and one, beginging and maturing through a Betrothal period. The Mosaic Betrothal period was from Sinai and for a period of 40 years untill 'The Children' (of those who left Egypt ) crossed into The Promised Land. We should be able to see the same thing is this verses in Hebrews.... If these 'Hebrews' wish to 'go back' to 'Egypt' (the OC) and stay in that mindset, then they will die in Egypt (the OC Judgements). The 'Reproach' of Egypty (the OC) will not be rolled away from them and they will die, "The Death".

Was there 'One chance' to find Salvation, through Faith, by Grace during this transition/betrothal period? It kind of looks that way.


Blessings

[TheForgiven]

Exactly. And just to clarify, my point wasn't about whether or not a Christian could fall away; obviously they can, otherwise there'd be no reason to offer correction or exhortation. If they are saved, they are saved, thus no warning or correction would be required.

However, my point was with an Apostate (person who falls away), from a Jewish (or Christian) perspective. Are these Apostates able to start back at the beginning, and be saved again? This is what the author of Hebrews was talking about in chapter 6. He was referring to Christian Jews, who were obviously being confused by trouble-makers, slipping away from Christianity (possibly because of persecution), and returning to the temple-cultis.

Those that committed Apostacy towards Christ, and returned to the old Mosaic convenant, could not be renewed again as thoug they were being reborn. In other words, you can't be saved again. You either repent, or suffer being burned at the end.

Joe

[Clifford]

Greetings my friends. I know that I spend a great deal of time on the eschatology forum, I think it's time I shifted towards other discussions.

A member on the eschatology forum seems to teach of something along the lines of re-crucifixion of the Lord Jesus. If I understand his idealogy, he believes that an Apostate Christ is guilty of re-crucifying Jesus all over again. His belief in this comes from Hebrews 5 - 6:

9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest 'according to the order of Melchizedek,' 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. 1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

I high lighted the text in red for our discussion.

Question: Is the author of Hebrews suggesting a reality of a 2nd crucifixion of an Apostate (falls away)?

The answer, in my opinion, is no. Paul (presumed author to the Hebrews) was not suggesting a reality of a person falling away, resulting in the "spiritual" crucifixion of Christ. He's saying that any thought or attempt to revert back to the beginning elementary teachings of salvation (laying on of hands, baptisms, washings, etc.) is the same as asking for another rebirth; hence, this would make Jesus look pretty foolish for having to die twice for the same person.

Scripture affirms that Jesus died "ONCE" for all sin. So any thought of Him dying again, even for an Apostate, is false. Just as a person cannot be reborn physically, one cannot be reborn spiritually once he has already been spiritually reborn the first time. Any such notion or attempt makes Jesus look like a fool.

What say you all my friends?

Joe

If you look back at Hebrews 5 the author was trying to explain to them the priesthood of Christ after the order of Melchizedek. At the end of the chapter he appently becoming a little frustrated because he says;

We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

So he begins Chapter 6 by saying that we should leave the elementary teaching about Christ and move on to maturity. I don't think he is suggesting that if they go back to the elementary teachings about Christ that they are asking for a rebirth. He is just saying that by this time in their spiritual life they should be able to move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ. He then goes on to say it is impossible to renew again onto repentance those who have fallen away. It would be like crucifying Christ all over again, which is impossible. That's all he is saying. Those who had once known Christ, if they fall away, it is impossible to bring them back to repentance.

[TheForgiven]

If you look back at Hebrews 5 the author was trying to explain to them the priesthood of Christ after the order of Melchizedek. At the end of the chapter he appently becoming a little frustrated because he says;

We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

So he begins Chapter 6 by saying that we should leave the elementary teaching about Christ and move on to maturity. I don't think he is suggesting that if they go back to the elementary teachings about Christ that they are asking for a rebirth. He is just saying that by this time in their spiritual life they should be able to move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ. He then goes on to say it is impossible to renew again onto repentance those who have fallen away. It would be like crucifying Christ all over again, which is impossible. That's all he is saying. Those who had once known Christ, if they fall away, it is impossible to bring them back to repentance.

I agree, but I do believe the author is suggesting that those who have fallen away back to the old Mosaic covenant, could not be "renewed" as though they were being born again. To make it easier to read, I left out the additional supporting details, so that the primary meaning of the sentence is understood:

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of [initial salvation instructions]. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they [would be] crucifying again for themselves the Son of God, and putting Him to an open shame.

As you can see, the text reads much clearer, of course I had to inject additional English words to clarify the subject. Leaving the elementary teachings of Christ once taught at a person’s initial salvation was a must. For those who fell away, perhaps of persecution or confusion by false Jews, could not be "renewed" to repentance as at the beginning, for that would be the same as crucifying the Lord Jesus all over again, thus insulting Jesus for having to die twice. As the author explains, this is an "Impossible" thing to do.

The Initial teachings of Christ included, but not limited to:

1. Lay on of hands
2. Instruction about washings, Baptism, etc.
3. Faith in God (Romans 10:9-10)
4. Resurrection of the dead
5. Eternal judgment

These are a few initial witnessing instructions to someone being renewed/saved for the first time, as milk for neborn babies.

The markers of a renewed/reborn Christian are, but not limited to:

1. Initial enlightenment (Holy Spirit received)
2. tasted of the heavenly gift [of life]
3. Shared in the goodness of God's word, and of the powers of the Age to come

Thus, a previously renewed/reborn Christian who falls away because of persecution, cannot be renewed/reborn again, as this is impossible to do; Christ will not die a 2nd time for an Apostate.

Now can a person who falls away repent, and still find forgiveness? I say yes, they can. The problem is most Christians who fall away, and are left hardened to sin, and are thus unable to repent. But it's important to keep in mind that this subject is not about the general everyday Christian, although similar. It's about the Jews who left Christianity either because of Mosaic confusion vs. Christianity, or because of persecution from their own race (Jews); the author does not tell us why some drifted away.

Good post my friend.

God bless.

Joe