All prophesies were fulfilled literally

[CWH]

All prophesies were fulfilled literally, never spiritually. See for yourself:

http://www.therefinersfire.org/jesus_prophecies.htm


This article will incite or perhaps excite the preterists :D to debate.....prophesies fulfilled literally in the 20th century after 1948:

http://www.therefinersfire.org/recent_prophecy.htm

Many Blessings.

[Clifford]

All prophesies were fulfilled literally, never spiritually. See for yourself:

http://www.therefinersfire.org/jesus_prophecies.htm


This article will incite or perhaps excite the preterists :D to debate.....prophesies fulfilled literally in the 20th century after 1948:

http://www.therefinersfire.org/recent_prophecy.htm

Many Blessings.

Hi Cheow,


All prophesies were fulfilled literally, never spiritually. See for yourself:

The main point of contention is not whether the prophecies were fulfilled literally or spiritually, but whether they were fulfilled in the 1st century or earlier or whether we are still awaiting the fulfillment of some of them.


This article will incite or perhaps excite the preterists :D to debate.....prophesies fulfilled literally in the 20th century after 1948:

Just trying to fit the prophecies with modern events. I'm sure you could go back and easily see that they were all fulfilled by events in OT Israel.

All the best,

Clifford

[Richard Amiel McGough]

All prophesies were fulfilled literally, never spiritually. See for yourself:

http://www.therefinersfire.org/jesus_prophecies.htm


This article will incite or perhaps excite the preterists :D to debate.....prophesies fulfilled literally in the 20th century after 1948:

http://www.therefinersfire.org/recent_prophecy.htm

Many Blessings.
Well that's interesting Cheow! I didn't know you thought the prophecies about the Gospel going out to the ends of the earth were fulfilled in the first century before the Day of Judgment in 70 AD! Look at the first "literally" fulfilled prophecy in the list (from the first link):

1. God's salvation would reach the ends of the earth
Bible passage: Isaiah 49:6
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: About 32 AD


In Isaiah 49:6, the prophet speaks of a servant of God who would be a light to Gentiles (non-Jews) so that God's salvation could reach the ends of the earth. Christians believe that Jesus is the fulfillment of this promise. The followers of Jesus helped spread Christianity about 2000 years ago. Christianity is unique in that it is among the first evangelical religions in history, and the first to be taken to people all over the world. Christians believe that salvation, forgiveness of sins and eternal life in heaven are available to anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their savior: "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." - Romans 10:9-10 (NIV translation).


Isaiah 49:6 - "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
They say this prophecy was FULFILLED in 32 AD???? That's weird - the Gospel didn't go to the Gentiles until Acts 10, about what, 5 or 10 years later?

I think you should find a better article. This one doesn't make any sense.

All the best,

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

And this prophecy also was fulfilled in the first century:


7. Daniel predicted when an anointed one would be rejected
Bible passage: Daniel 9:24-26
Written: about 530 BC
Fulfilled: About 33 AD


The prophet Daniel was a Jew who lived during the time of the Babylonian Captivity, about 500 years before the birth of Jesus. During Daniel's lifetime, the Babylonians had destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple and had taken many Jews as captives to Babylon. Daniel, while in Babylon, delivered a prophecy of what would happen during the centuries that followed. Here is our summary of Daniel 9:24-26:


There would be a decree to rebuild Jerusalem.
Jerusalem and the Temple would be rebuilt.
Then an anointed one (messiah) would be "cut off" (an idiom for "rejected" or "killed").
Then Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed again.

All of these events later happened, in the same order in which they are described in Daniel 9:24-26:


After the Medo-Persians had conquered the neo-Babylonian empire about 2500 years ago, they ruled a vast empire that included the land of Israel. About 2400 years ago (about 445 BC), Persian king Artaxerxes gave permission to the Jews to rebuild Jerusalem, which was still in ruins after having been destroyed earlier by the Babylonians.
The Jews rebuilt the Temple and the city of Jerusalem.
Then, about 2000 years ago, Jesus entered Jerusalem as the Messiah who had been promised by Old Testament prophets. But, many people rejected Jesus as the Messiah and He was crucified by the Romans.
About 40 years after Jesus was crucified, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. (The Temple has not been rebuilt since then). [70 AD]

Thanks for posting these proofs of Preterism for us Cheow. :yo: It was very kind of you!

Richard

[CWH]

And this prophecy also was fulfilled in the first century:


7. Daniel predicted when an anointed one would be rejected
Bible passage: Daniel 9:24-26
Written: about 530 BC
Fulfilled: About 33 AD


The prophet Daniel was a Jew who lived during the time of the Babylonian Captivity, about 500 years before the birth of Jesus. During Daniel's lifetime, the Babylonians had destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple and had taken many Jews as captives to Babylon. Daniel, while in Babylon, delivered a prophecy of what would happen during the centuries that followed. Here is our summary of Daniel 9:24-26:


There would be a decree to rebuild Jerusalem.
Jerusalem and the Temple would be rebuilt.
Then an anointed one (messiah) would be "cut off" (an idiom for "rejected" or "killed").
Then Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed again.

All of these events later happened, in the same order in which they are described in Daniel 9:24-26:


After the Medo-Persians had conquered the neo-Babylonian empire about 2500 years ago, they ruled a vast empire that included the land of Israel. About 2400 years ago (about 445 BC), Persian king Artaxerxes gave permission to the Jews to rebuild Jerusalem, which was still in ruins after having been destroyed earlier by the Babylonians.
The Jews rebuilt the Temple and the city of Jerusalem.
Then, about 2000 years ago, Jesus entered Jerusalem as the Messiah who had been promised by Old Testament prophets. But, many people rejected Jesus as the Messiah and He was crucified by the Romans.
About 40 years after Jesus was crucified, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. (The Temple has not been rebuilt since then). [70 AD]

Thanks for posting these proofs of Preterism for us Cheow. :yo: It was very kind of you!

Richard

Well, once in a while it's good to do the preterists a favor (accidentally) and I hope the preterists here will also do the same...good for goodwill. Will the preterists here be kind enough to do the futurists a favor?....very kind of you! :yo:

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Well, once in a while it's good to do the preterists a favor (accidentally) and I hope the preterists here will also do the same...good for goodwill. Will the preterists here be kind enough to do the futurists a favor?....very kind of you! :yo:

Many Blessings.
It is good to spread kindness around! :)

[Twospirits]

Cheow, here's something claimed by George T.B. Davis and Professor Peter Stoner that's interesting concerning fulfilled prophecy, though I haven't read the books or researched these things, but thought they were interesting when I read it. This goes back about 10 years or so ago when I came across this information quoted below and wrote it in one of my articles. I forget exactly where I found the source. Anyway thought I'd post it, maybe someone here has heard or looked into this and can fill us in.

The book, "Fulfilled prophecy that proves the Bible" by George T.B. Davis, detailed how the expansion of the modern city has precisely followed the ancient prophecy. It is stated that “a most unique end-time prophecy is the 2500 year old prediction given by the prophet Jeremiah that the city of Jerusalem will be precisely rebuilt for the Lord in the last days, and in a very particular sequence. "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the city shall be built to the Lord from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the Lord, it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more forever."(Jer. 31-38-40). This unusual and unique prophecy has been fulfilled with exact precision in this generation. The generation of the Jewish exiles that returned throughout the globe to rebuild their ancient capital Jerusalem, after being reborn as a nation in 1948.”

Professor Peter Stoner concluded in his book "Science speaks; an Evaluation of certain Christian evidences" that the odds against the rebuilding of the holy city fulfilling this "precise prediction" by random chance were only one in 80 billion.”

God bless---Twospirits

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Cheow, here's something claimed by George T.B. Davis and Professor Peter Stoner that's interesting concerning fulfilled prophecy, though I haven't read the books or researched these things, but thought they were interesting when I read it. This goes back about 10 years or so ago when I came across this information quoted below and wrote it in one of my articles. I forget exactly where I found the source. Anyway thought I'd post it, maybe someone here has heard or looked into this and can fill us in.

The book, "Fulfilled prophecy that proves the Bible" by George T.B. Davis, detailed how the expansion of the modern city has precisely followed the ancient prophecy. It is stated that 'a most unique end-time prophecy is the 2500 year old prediction given by the prophet Jeremiah that the city of Jerusalem will be precisely rebuilt for the Lord in the last days, and in a very particular sequence. "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the city shall be built to the Lord from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the Lord, it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more forever."(Jer. 31-38-40). This unusual and unique prophecy has been fulfilled with exact precision in this generation. The generation of the Jewish exiles that returned throughout the globe to rebuild their ancient capital Jerusalem, after being reborn as a nation in 1948.'

Professor Peter Stoner concluded in his book "Science speaks; an Evaluation of certain Christian evidences" that the odds against the rebuilding of the holy city fulfilling this "precise prediction" by random chance were only one in 80 billion.'

God bless---Twospirits
Here's a link (http://sciencespeaks.dstoner.net/) to Stoner's book available free online.

In general, the book is not reliable. In the introduction, he begins with examples of how science that was only two hundred years old had gotten some things totally wrong, and then contrasts that with Genesis:
Genesis 1 is not just one or two hundred years old; it is several thousand years old. If it were written by man, representing the scientific ideas of that time, we should expect to find most of its definite statements in error. If we find them all verified by the best of our science today, we shall be certain that Genesis does not present the beliefs and culture of the day in which it was written.
First, he set up an utterly false perception when he compared the amazingly successful results of 20th century science with what was known two hundred years early. His implication that all modern science could be as wrong as the fledgling stabs in the dark from two centuries prior is absurd in the extreme, as any student of science would immediately know since the modern scientific results have been confirmed by millions of observations. The the dark guesses of the previous two centuries had no such support so the comparison gives a false impression.

Second, his implicit assertion that "we find them all verified by the best of our science today" is absurd in the extreme. He plays word games with the text and redefines things with no justification whatsoever. For example, the word "raqia" (firmament) denotes the ancient concept of a dome that covered the flat earth. It was imagined that it held up the "waters" that were above the earth. And the Bible says that it had "windows" that could be opened to flood the earth. All these ideas are exactly what we would expect from the "science" of that time. Does Stoner even acknowledge any of these ideas? Nope. He merely makes up his own ideas and asserts them without any support whatsoever:
"And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament." Firmament is better translated "space." So the verse means that there was water on the surface of the earth, a distance or space of air, and dense clouds above. As a planet cools off it must go through this stage. When the temperature of the earth was near the boiling point, there could have been no deposits of water upon it, for the heat would have evaporated all surface water, and all of the water would be covering the earth as extremely dense clouds extending from the surface upward. When the earth got cool enough, some of this water would condense upon the surface of the earth. The cooler it got, the more water we would find deposited on the earth, and the smaller would be the amount suspended in clouds. Yes, this condition of the earth was necessary, and had to follow the condition when the earth was much hotter.
See that? Where does he get the idea that the "firmament" is "better translated as space"? He just made that up! Here's Strong's definition, which also is fully supported by BDB:
Meaning: 1) extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament 1a) expanse (flat as base, support) 1b) firmament (of vault of heaven supporting waters above) 1b1) considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting 'waters' above
I find his style of argumentation absolutely unconvincing. He plays word games and makes up stuff to support the false idea that the Bible was written in accordance with modern science.

And here is a snippet from a review of his book cited in the wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Stoner) on him:
C. P. Swanson, reviewing Science Speaks in The Quarterly Review of Biology, wrote: "...the author has fallen into the commonest error of using only these facts which bolster his hypothesis, and of discarding or controverting those which do not. For example, his discussion of the theory of evolution is not only misleading; it displays an abysmal ignorance of recent evolutionary studies.
The highlighted words convey my precise estimation of the situation.

Now before we look at his analysis of the prophecy of the rebuilding of Jerusalem, let's take a look at his statement about Tyre (http://sciencespeaks.dstoner.net/Prophetic_Accuracy.html#c8a), since that came up recently in our conversations:
Today visitors at the old city of Tyre find it is a very popular place for fisherman; they are spreading their nets on this very spot. Thus prediction 4 has been completely fulfilled: (4) It is to become a place for spreading of nets.

The great freshwater springs of Raselain are at the site of the mainland city of Tyre, and no doubt supplied the city with an abundance of fresh water. These springs are still there and still flow, but their water runs into the sea. The flow of these springs was measured by an engineer, and found to be about 10,000,000 gallons daily. It is still an excellent site for a city and would have free water enough for a large modern city, yet it has never been rebuilt. Thus item 7 of the prophecy has stood true for more than 2,500 years: (7) The old city of Tyre shall never be rebuilt.

This prophecy by Ezekiel has been fulfilled to the last item. Let us try to evaluate the evidence of inspiration as supplied by the fulfillment of this prophecy.
Are his words true??? NOPE! Tyre is today the fourth largest city in Lebanon.

Finally, looking at his explanation of the rebuilding of Jerusalem (http://sciencespeaks.dstoner.net/Prophetic_Accuracy.html#c8g):

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the city shall be built to the Lord from the tower of hananeel unto the gate of the corner. And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the Lord; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever (Jer. 31:38-40 - written 600 B.C.)
Thus nine items were named in the expansion of the city of Jerusalem. First it was prophesied that it would expand, then the order of the expansion.

The accompanying figure shows roughly the shape of the old city, and the location of each of the nine items mentioned. The early growth of the city covers numbers 1 and 2; these are inside of Suleiman's wall. Shortly before 1900 Jerusalem overflowed the wall and started out in the direction of number 3. It has expanded from number to number in turn, until it is now building up about the horse gate at number 9.(diagram showing the expansion of the city of Jerusalem through successive stages in the direction as prophesied.)

It is rather easy to find the number of ways in which the city of Jerusalem might have grown in its first nine steps. There are six definite corners to the old city. Certainly the growth might have started from any one of these corners, to say nothing of the sides. Let us say then, that the first development could have come at any of these six corners. Having built at point number 1 it could have next built at any of the old corners, or gone on in any one of three directions from number 1; thus, the second expansion could have come at any of eight places. Continuing this for the nine points and multiplying the results together, we find that the probability of Jeremiah writing this prophecy, from human knowledge, and having it come true would be about 1 in 8 x 1010
I have no way to verify at this time if his assertion about the sequence of expansion is true. It could be, but given his track record with the facts, I have good reason to doubt anything he says. The only support he gives is from another questionable "prove the Bible" book by George T.B. Davis called "Fulfilled Prophecies That Prove the Bible." Concerning this source, the wiki article states:
Among the sources cited in Professor Stoner's chapter on "Prophetic Accuracy" is George T. B. Davis, Fulfilled Prophecies That Prove the Bible (1931). His grandson, Don W. Stoner, writes that Peter Stoner "appears to have followed the arguments given in, and relied upon the evidence taken from" this book.
While researching this, I found your page (http://www.twospiritshendora.com/page20.htm) Henry. :winking0071: Here is what your wrote:
This unusual and unique prophecy has been fulfilled with exact precision in this generation. The generation of the Jewish exiles that returned throughout the globe to rebuild their ancient capital Jerusalem, after being reborn as a nation in 1948. The book, "Fulfilled prophecy that proves the Bible" by George T.B. Davis, detailed how the expansion of the modern city has precisely followed the ancient prophecy. Also, after a very careful analysis of Jeremiah's prophecy and a detailed examination of the precise stages of the expansion of the modern city of Jerusalem, Professor Peter Stoner concluded in his book "Science speaks; an Evaluation of certain Christian evidences" that the odds against the rebuilding of the holy city fulfilling this "precise prediction" by random chance were only one in 80 billion.
I would be very interested if someone could post the actual evidence for the sequence of the expansion of Jerusalem. Given that folks who want to "prove the Bible" are demonstrably prone to making up stuff, confirmation of their claims is of first importance.

All the best,

Richard

[Twospirits]

Ram wrote,

Here's a link to Stoner's book available free online.

In general, the book is not reliable. In the introduction, he begins with examples of how science that was only two hundred years old had gotten some things totally wrong, and then contrasts that with Genesis:

Thanks for the link and your research on this, I'm surprised you found it that quickly. When I have time I'll check it out.


While researching this, I found your page Henry. Here is what your wrote:

This unusual and unique prophecy has been fulfilled with exact precision in this generation. The generation of the Jewish exiles that returned throughout the globe to rebuild their ancient capital Jerusalem, after being reborn as a nation in 1948. The book, "Fulfilled prophecy that proves the Bible" by George T.B. Davis, detailed how the expansion of the modern city has precisely followed the ancient prophecy. Also, after a very careful analysis of Jeremiah's prophecy and a detailed examination of the precise stages of the expansion of the modern city of Jerusalem, Professor Peter Stoner concluded in his book "Science speaks; an Evaluation of certain Christian evidences" that the odds against the rebuilding of the holy city fulfilling this "precise prediction" by random chance were only one in 80 billion.


To set the record straight, its what I wrote but that quoted passage you posted came from the source that wrote it at that time. The quote belongs to the source not to me, I only copied it in my article. Like I said:

"This goes back about 10 years or so ago when I came across this information quoted below and wrote it in one of my articles. I forget exactly where I found the source."

Next time I'll be more careful before giving out "suspect" information.


I would be very interested if someone could post the actual evidence for the sequence of the expansion of Jerusalem. Given that folks who want to "prove the Bible" are demonstrably prone to making up stuff, confirmation of their claims is of first importance.

So wouldn't I, that's why I posted this, hoping someone knew more about this sequence of the rebuilding written by the author.

God bless---Twospirits

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Thanks for the link and your research on this, I'm surprised you found it that quickly. When I have time I'll check it out.

Google is amazing ... a little "too" amazing in the sense that I don't like a private group having such control over so much information. But given the complexity of 7 billion people, I think we can safely assume that no one will be able to "control" everything since there would be no one to watch the watchers. Chaos has an important role to play in ensuring our freedom.



To set the record straight, its what I wrote but that quoted passage you posted came from the source that wrote it at that time. The quote belongs to the source not to me, I only copied it in my article. Like I said:

"This goes back about 10 years or so ago when I came across this information quoted below and wrote it in one of my articles. I forget exactly where I found the source."

Next time I'll be more careful before giving out "suspect" information.

Excellent attitude! We all must strive for truth - there is so much confusion and junk put out there by unscrupulous folks pretending to be Christian. I'm not saying Stoner or Davis weren't Christian - I'm only stating the OBVIOUS fact that the folks who knowingly propagate false information like those pics of the giants are not Christian. The first person who propagated them was at fault for knowingly lying (and his status as a Christian is therefore suspect), but the Christians who took the pics and ran are only guilty of things like gullibility and not checking the facts and wishful thinking.



So wouldn't I, that's why I posted this, hoping someone knew more about this sequence of the rebuilding written by the author.

God bless---Twospirits
Me too - I think it would be helpful to everyone to find and evaluate the validity of these claims.

All the very best my friend,

Richard

[basilfo]

The book, "Fulfilled prophecy that proves the Bible" by George T.B. Davis, detailed how the expansion of the modern city has precisely followed the ancient prophecy.

Hi Henry,
The glaring flaw in this statement is applying the prophecy of the New Covenant given in Jer 31:31- to any other time but the time when Christ established the NC with "the house of Israel and the house of Judah".

So, any connection with Jerusalem 2000 yrs later is completely irrelevent. The verses immediately preceeding what he quoted about the city give the context that he (and other dispensationalists) love to ignore.

Peace to you,
Dave

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Henry,
The glaring flaw in this statement is applying the prophecy of the New Covenant given in Jer 31:31- to any other time but the time when Christ established the NC with "the house of Israel and the house of Judah".

So, any connection with Jerusalem 2000 yrs later is completely irrelevent. The verses immediately preceeding what he quoted about the city give the context that he (and other dispensationalists) love to ignore.

Peace to you,
Dave
I think this is a most important point. Hebrews 8 explicitly declares that the prophecy of Jeremiah 31:31 was fulfilled in the New Covenant with Christ as the minister of the New Covenant. So we know that prophecy was fulfilled by Christ in the first century. What else is there to say? How could there be any confusion on this point? It is curious that some Dispensationalists assert that God has not yet "ratified" the New Covenant with the House of Judah and the House of Israel, but to my knowledge they have never specified what they mean by "ratify." It seems to me that the ratification happened when Christ the Testator died. This coheres, of course, with the institution of the Eucharist the night before he died.

All the best,

Richard

[basilfo]

How could there be any confusion on this point?

Your points are right on as usual Richard. The answer to your question above is.............
eisegesis.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Your points are right on as usual Richard. The answer to your question above is.............
eisegesis.
That font certainly deserved to be bold, colored, and enlarged. But somehow I don't think it will help the willfully blind to see. Maybe that's the problem. We can't do braille on the forum ...

:lmbo:

[basilfo]

When your eschatology begins with and demands ,
REvived Roman Empire,
REbuilt temple,
REestablished Levitical priests offering sacrifices at that REbuilt temple, and REgathered "Jews" (who no one can define) to a
REborn Israel....

then you better be good at inserting these concepts into the text (and ignoring texts like Jer 31:31 and Heb 8).

[gilgal]

When your eschatology begins with and demands ,
REvived Roman Empire,
REbuilt temple,
REestablished Levitical priests offering sacrifices at that REbuilt temple, and REgathered "Jews" (who no one can define) to a
REborn Israel....

then you better be good at inserting these concepts into the text (and ignoring texts like Jer 31:31 and Heb 8).
Richard, You mentioned:
http://www.biblewheel.com/History/KingdomKey.gif (http://www.biblewheel.com/History/KingdomKey.asp)
Since the Jews received independence in 164BC and 1948AD wouldn't there be two periods of the abomination of desolation as well?

Ok. Was Antiochus Epiphanies before 164BC or after? Because I started reading Maccabees. Whatever Jesus described in the gospels' Apocalyptic chapters has already happened at the time of Antiochus Epiphanies.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard, You mentioned:

Since the Jews received independence in 164BC and 1948AD wouldn't there be two periods of the abomination of desolation as well?

Ok. Was Antiochus Epiphanies before 164BC or after? Because I started reading Maccabees. Whatever Jesus described in the gospels' Apocalyptic chapters has already happened at the time of Antiochus Epiphanies.
I can see why you might think that, but then again, the pattern does not give us enough information to predict anything with certainty. It's like the prophecies in the Bible. They were not given so that we could predict things before they happened, they were given so that we could know and understand that God gave the Scriptures by seeing the fulfillment after the fact. Here is how I explained it in my article called The Purpose of Prophecy (http://biblewheel.com/Theology/TheologyIntro.asp):

================================================== ===
THE PURPOSE OF PROPHECY


And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. John 20:30-31

The primary purpose of prophecy is not to give us the ability to "predict the future" like a fortune-teller, but to build faith and to confirm the Doctrine of the Gospel by proving that God knew history in advance and directed its outcome to accomplish His purpose of redemption, as it is written:


And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. John 14:29

The purpose of prophecy is the same as that of the Bible as a whole. It is to build faith in God and His Word. It is pointless and vain to invent complex eschatological systems about the character of life in the Millennium, the time of the Rapture, the rebuilding of the Temple, or its destruction by a future "Antichrist." That is not the purpose of prophecy, and none of those doctrines can be confirmed with any certainty from Scripture anyway. The overwhelming body of Biblical prophecy concerned the coming of our great and might God in the incarnation of the Lord Jesus Christ in the first century. There probably are prophetic "bits and pieces" that are still future, but I am not certain of that, and I am not aware of any explicit prophecy that clearly applies to any events still future.
================================================== ===

[gilgal]

I can see why you might think that, but then again, the pattern does not give us enough information to predict anything with certainty. It's like the prophecies in the Bible. They were not given so that we could predict things before they happened, they were given so that we could know and understand that God gave the Scriptures by seeing the fulfillment after the fact. Here is how I explained it in my article called The Purpose of Prophecy (http://biblewheel.com/Theology/TheologyIntro.asp):

================================================== ===
THE PURPOSE OF PROPHECY


And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. John 20:30-31

The primary purpose of prophecy is not to give us the ability to "predict the future" like a fortune-teller, but to build faith and to confirm the Doctrine of the Gospel by proving that God knew history in advance and directed its outcome to accomplish His purpose of redemption, as it is written:


And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. John 14:29

The purpose of prophecy is the same as that of the Bible as a whole. It is to build faith in God and His Word. It is pointless and vain to invent complex eschatological systems about the character of life in the Millennium, the time of the Rapture, the rebuilding of the Temple, or its destruction by a future "Antichrist." That is not the purpose of prophecy, and none of those doctrines can be confirmed with any certainty from Scripture anyway. The overwhelming body of Biblical prophecy concerned the coming of our great and might God in the incarnation of the Lord Jesus Christ in the first century. There probably are prophetic "bits and pieces" that are still future, but I am not certain of that, and I am not aware of any explicit prophecy that clearly applies to any events still future.
================================================== ===
Well we see similarities. Just as back then the Jews were facing Hellenization or Westernization even so today. And as I've read Maccabees I don't see any divine intervention or mentioning... as if the fate lied in their men like Judas Maccabeus. Even so today, we have a secular Israel where God has hid himself, don't you think? We can't know the timing but the signs and patterns are there. There are Gay/Pride parades going on there as well.

[basilfo]

Since the Jews received independence in 164BC and 1948AD wouldn't there be two periods of the abomination of desolation as well?


Hi Gilgal,
What makes you think the Jews of 164BC and the Jews of 1948AD are the same people? I believe they are as different as the 164BC Jews and the 1948AD Italians when it comes to what counts:

*Covenantally
*Genetically

If a cat thinks it's a fish, and someone calls it a fish, is it a fish?

I don't believe there is a single NT teaching granting certain rejectors of Christ special distinction. John calls all men, regardless of their presumed genetics, "ANTICHRIST" if they believe Jesus was just another human. You don't get any distinction if your name ends with 'berg or 'stein. (Mat 3:7)

[gilgal]

Hi Gilgal,
What makes you think the Jews of 164BC and the Jews of 1948AD are the same people? I believe they are as different as the 164BC Jews and the 1948AD Italians when it comes to what counts:

*Covenantally
*Genetically

If a cat thinks it's a fish, and someone calls it a fish, is it a fish?

I don't believe there is a single NT teaching granting certain rejectors of Christ special distinction. John calls all men, regardless of their presumed genetics, "ANTICHRIST" if they believe Jesus was just another human. You don't get any distinction if your name ends with 'berg or 'stein. (Mat 3:7)

Yeah but don't forget that Israel from the time of Moses - Jesus wasn't a pure race either. There were Jews intermarried with Gentiles like Ruth, Rahab, Zipporah...

Gibeonites (Joshua 9)...

There were the Gentiles brought in the northern Kingdom's lands in 2Kings 17 later called Samaritans. There were converts to Judaism at the time of Esther. So not every Jew can be traced back to Jacob.

So Khazaria...it's nothing new.

Most of the prophecies are focused on Israel...no longer divided in two kingdoms which believe happened when they returned from the Babylonian captivity. Plus the northern tribes aren't lost since Luke mentioned one from the tribe of Asher. I think when Jeroboam rebelled many Israelites migrated to Judah.

[basilfo]

Hi Gilgal,
I agree with you. Yet, heritage or genetics (bloodline) seems to be the characteristic used to carve out a specific group of people who will be involved in unfulfilled prophecy. In this case, it's the "Jews". I want to know what separates "the Jews" today from "the Columbians" or "the French", or "the Hindus" for that matter

As you correctly pointed out, it has never been about bloodline. It has always been a covenant that God has used to distinguish His people from others.

So, what covenant are "the Jews" (and only the Jews) under with God since they have rejected the New Covenant He established with them?

I say "only the Jews" because anyone else who rejects the New Covenant is simply called an unbeliever. This is the distortion that dispensationalism has introduced.

[gilgal]

Hi Gilgal,
I agree with you. Yet, heritage or genetics (bloodline) seems to be the characteristic used to carve out a specific group of people who will be involved in unfulfilled prophecy. In this case, it's the "Jews". I want to know what separates "the Jews" today from "the Columbians" or "the French", or "the Hindus" for that matter

As you correctly pointed out, it has never been about bloodline. It has always been a covenant that God has used to distinguish His people from others.

So, what covenant are "the Jews" (and only the Jews) under with God since they have rejected the New Covenant He established with them?

I say "only the Jews" because anyone else who rejects the New Covenant is simply called an unbeliever. This is the distortion that dispensationalism has introduced.
Romans 4 said that when Abraham believed in God he was still uncircumcised.
So it's not works that makes someone perfect, rather faith. But works is the visible part.

The reason the bloodline becomes interesting is when God promises to bless the following generations like King Jehu's bloodline in 2Kings 9-10 because Jehu had a zeal towards God. But Paul warns us in 1 Timothy not to get carried away with genealogies as they give (false) pride.

[basilfo]

Romans 4 said that when Abraham believed in God he was still uncircumcised.
So it's not works that makes someone perfect, rather faith. But works is the visible part.

Agree.


The reason the bloodline becomes interesting is when God promises to bless the following generations like King Jehu's bloodline in 2Kings 9-10 because Jehu had a zeal towards God. But Paul warns us in 1 Timothy not to get carried away with genealogies as they give (false) pride.

My question remains unanswered. Asked in another way:

Does God honor any covenant with anyone who rejects His New Covenant? What covenant would that be? Does it only apply to certain people? What characteristic get's you into that group? What NT teaching explains this?

These questions will also go unanswered, because answering them exposes the error of dispensationalism.

[gilgal]

Agree.



My question remains unanswered. Asked in another way:

Does God honor any covenant with anyone who rejects His New Covenant? What covenant would that be? Does it only apply to certain people? What characteristic get's you into that group? What NT teaching explains this?

These questions will also go unanswered, because answering them exposes the error of dispensationalism.

Dispensationalism... Can you explain that doctrine to me? I take it that it means that God deals things differently after some time right? If that's the case we can never figure out God unless God has given a warning and consequences.

[Gil]

Howdy basilfo and gilgal,

This post is a little slower than most so I'll join in if you don't mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by basilfo
Hi Gilgal,
I agree with you. Yet, heritage or genetics (bloodline) seems to be the characteristic used to carve out a specific group of people who will be involved in unfulfilled prophecy. In this case, it's the "Jews". I want to know what separates "the Jews" today from "the Columbians" or "the French", or "the Hindus" for that matter

As you correctly pointed out, it has never been about bloodline. It has always been a covenant that God has used to distinguish His people from others.

So, what covenant are "the Jews" (and only the Jews) under with God since they have rejected the New Covenant He established with them?

I say "only the Jews" because anyone else who rejects the New Covenant is simply called an unbeliever. This is the distortion that dispensationalism has introduced.]

Gil > There is no Jew or Gentile in the new covenant, all man in the flesh
may be a part of the New Covenant. All people in the flesh, now however,
are not in the BOC (Body of Christ).
People enter through their Faith in the Father and the Son.
There are no blood line restrictions within the BOC.
Jesus in the Flesh was of Jewish blood but his blood was shed at the cross
for all man .
The Old Covenant was a blood Covenant.
The Hebrews believed that the soul and the life given unto it was within the blood.
In the New Covenant those that are within the BOC, even though they are
still in the flesh and have blood running through their veins, their spirit and soul are being transformed into the Image of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ
being the New Man and Last Adam which is of the seed of the Spirit and not of the seed of man in the Flesh/blood.

The Spirit man is being quickened (made alive) through the Spirit of God ,not
quickened by the life that is in the blood which is of the flesh man.

Gil