The Righteousness and Glory of God?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I am studying John Piper's book The Justification of God (http://www.amazon.com/Justification-God-Exegetical-Theological-Romans/dp/0801070791) which is the premier Reformed (Calvinist) exegesis of Romans 9, and he comes to the conclusion that the phrase "righteousness of God" denotes "God's unswerving commitment to preserve the honor of his name and display his glory." He bases this on the fact that Paul quoted Exo 33:19 as an answer to the question "Is there unrighteousness in God?"


Exodus 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Piper's conclusion followed from the fact that 1) Exo 33:19 was God's response to Moses request to show him his "glory" and 2) Paul used this as an answer to the question "Is there unrighteousness in God."

So now I have two questions. First, Piper defined God's righteousness in terms of God's Glory. So to really understand his definition, I need to know what the Bible means by "God's glory."

Second, I am wondering how folks here would define "God's righteousness."

Thanks in advance for your comments!

Richard

[shalag]

Second, I am wondering how folks here would define "God's righteousness."

Thanks in advance for your comments! Richard In short, - to this question - I would say "And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us". It would be hard to put it into 'words' but it is plain in the Person of Jesus Christ.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

In short, - to this question - I would say "And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us". It would be hard to put it into 'words' but it is plain in the Person of Jesus Christ.

Amen to that. Jesus is the "righteousness of God."


1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:


So "righteousness" has been "put into the Word (Jesus)" but I am trying to put it into "words."

So what does "the righteousness of God" mean? When Abram believed in the Lord, and it was counted as "righteousness" - what does that mean?

This is not a trick question! :p

Richard

[joel]

I would say that righteousness as it applies to God would mean that everything He does is right.

He makes no mistakes. He doesn't "miss" His own standard of perfection.

We, on the other hand, do nothing right of ourselves. Even when, on the surface, our efforts may appear to be "right", there is always a hidden motive behind what we do, whether we are aware of it or not.

In the creation, God displayed some of His hidden attributes; His power and his divine purpose. But, He had not revealed His righteousness in fullness until Jesus came.

Everything Jesus said, thought, did, and did not do, was "right". He was the Lamb without blemish.

Only in the gospel as presented by Paul is God's righteousness revealed.

Sending His Son, in the likeness of sin's flesh, was the purest of right things to do.......and, sending His Son to the cross was even yet more pure and right still. It has "righted" all wrongs.

When God does something, the glory of God emmanates out of the act. Righteousness radiates a glory unequaled by any creation, or any creature.

Most amazing is that He has chosen to share His glory with us. First, however, He shares His righteousness when He justifies us in His blood.

The weight of our current outward body and the pressures that are brought to bear cannot be compared with the glory that we will share when we are in His presence.

Joel

[shalag]

Sending His Son, in the likeness of sin's flesh, was the purest of right things to do.......and, sending His Son to the cross was even yet more pure and right still. It has "righted" all wrongs.

When God does something, the glory of God emmanates out of the act. Righteousness radiates a glory unequaled by any creation, or any creature.

Most amazing is that He has chosen to share His glory with us. First, however, He shares His righteousness when He justifies us in His blood.

The weight of our current outward body and the pressures that are brought to bear cannot be compared with the glory that we will share when we are in His presence.

JoelIf it can be put in words - these are the words. Awesome! :yo:

[joel]

Shalag, we serve an awesome God, don't we.....Who is like unto thee, O Lord, among the gods? Who is like unto thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders? Exodus 15:11.

Richard, to bring things down to their most simplistic basis, I offer this observation;

Faith is linked with righteousness,
obedience and suffering are linked with glory

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God (which is) by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all that believe: for there is no difference

It is not my faith, it is His faith. And when God grants the faith to me, I am enabled to believe, and righteousness is reckoned, on the basis of faith, to me and to all who may be granted the faith as well. We are seen in His eyes as "righteous".

We now exist in the realm of God's grace where we are to stand, walk, and run the race set before us.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honour, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Glory is associated with acts. The creation radiates the glory of God.
Humanity, created in His image, demonstrates the opposite of His glory as long as we are associated with Adam,......"all ..sinned..and....fall short of the glory of God".

And we are to reflect the glory of God by being conformed to his image, rather than changing it as Paul clearly states in Romans 1:23 where man...."changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image...."

Joel

[Rose]

Faith is linked with righteousness,
obedience and suffering are linked with glory


Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God (which is) by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all that believe: for there is no difference

It is not my faith, it is His faith. And when God grants the faith to me, I am enabled to believe, and righteousness is reckoned, on the basis of faith, to me and to all who may be granted the faith as well. We are seen in His eyes as "righteous".

We now exist in the realm of God's grace where we are to stand, walk, and run the race set before us.

Excellent post Joel :yo:

I agree wholeheartedly that faith is linked with righteousness, but I would reword your quote to say: It is my faith (belief) in Christ that is counted for righteousness by God, as with Abraham He believed God and it was counted as righteousness by God.

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Rose

[joel]

I agree wholeheartedly that faith is linked with righteousness, but I would reword your quote to say: It is my faith (belief) in Christ that is counted for righteousness by God, as with Abraham He believed God and it was counted as righteousness by God.

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Rose


Rose, I understand that you see it that way, as do many others whom I have spoken with concerning this matter.

It is instructive to differentiate between ...."the faith of Jesus Christ"....and my faith "in Jesus Christ".

In Romans 3:22, I see it as saying that righteousness, as from God, comes by means of Jesus' faith. His faith is the original source of faith. He is the author of our faith (Hebrews 12:2).

That faith is placed "into" us so that we may believe. And, as we are linked to it, we are placed "into" Him......we become "sons" of God through the belief "in" Him. He becomes the finisher of faith as we grow in grace and in the knowledge of Him.

But, I see it as originating in Him and occurring and being expressed, first, within Him. In that respect, I see it as "His faith", and, then, it can be expressed as "our faith".

Not meaning to quibble, but, only seeking the accuracy of the words, and the placement of the truths as they appear in scripture. The truth of Jesus' faith in Romans 3 preceeds the truth of the reckoning of faith that is spoken of in Romans 4 where Abraham is discussed.

The reckoning of faith occurs twice in Romans 4. First, when he is justified by faith in the initial part of his life of faith.......and, later, when he is "dead" and unable to produce life, and receives the son of promise, Isaac.

I do not believe that faith exists within anyone until it is placed there by God.
Nor do I believe that hope (expectation) exists within anyone, nor, does love (agapae) until God, by means of His spirit, grants such gifts.

It is what we do with them, when received, that characterizes our life which when after we received, we can say that it is "our" faith, "our" expectation, "our" love only in the sense that we have been given these spiritual graces by God, and they have been expressed in edifying others as He enables us to be the channel of the graces.

Joel

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard, to bring things down to their most simplistic basis, I offer this observation;

Faith is linked with righteousness,
obedience and suffering are linked with glory

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God (which is) by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all that believe: for there is no difference

It is not my faith, it is His faith. And when God grants the faith to me, I am enabled to believe, and righteousness is reckoned, on the basis of faith, to me and to all who may be granted the faith as well. We are seen in His eyes as "righteous".

We now exist in the realm of God's grace where we are to stand, walk, and run the race set before us.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honour, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Glory is associated with acts. The creation radiates the glory of God.
Humanity, created in His image, demonstrates the opposite of His glory as long as we are associated with Adam,......"all ..sinned..and....fall short of the glory of God".

And we are to reflect the glory of God by being conformed to his image, rather than changing it as Paul clearly states in Romans 1:23 where man...."changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image...."

Joel
Hi Joel!

Thank you very much for helping out here. I think the connection of righteousness with faith, and glory with obedience and suffering is very significant.

You have stated the one of the orthodox understandings of the atonement very clearly. But I find myself challenged with it on a few points.

My primary challenge is to retain the real meaning of the words that we use to describe the Gospel. For example, if I were to say that my faith in Christ was not "my" faith, but the faith that God "gave" me, then the word "faith" is transformed from its ordinary meaning (as the "believing" function of my soul) into a sort of mystical "substance" that can be "transfered" from God to me. This makes all the biblical instructions like "put your faith in the Lord" lose their ordinary meaning. Furthermore, the original act of righteousness in the Bible, the true "Genesis of the Gospel" in Gen 15:6, was when the man Abram "believed the Lord." And concerning that, Romans 4:5 explicitly states that it was his faith that was "counted for righteousness."

You see, I believe that there is a real connection between real faith and real righteousness. Indeed, the connection might even be one of definition. Let's begin with the dictionary definition:


אמן 'aman {aw-man'} a primitive root; TWOT - 116; v AV - believe 44, assurance 1, faithful 20, sure 11, established 7, trust 5, verified 3, stedfast 2, continuance 2, father 2, bring up 4, nurse 2, be nursed 1, surely be 1, stand fast 1, fail 1, trusty 1; 108 1) to support, confirm, be faithful 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to support, confirm, be faithful, uphold, nourish 1a1a) foster-father (subst.) 1a1b) foster-mother, nurse 1a1c) pillars, supporters of the door 1b) (Niphal) 1b1) to be established, be faithful, be carried, make firm 1b1a) to be carried by a nurse 1b1b) made firm, sure, lasting 1b1c) confirmed, established, sure 1b1d) verified, confirmed 1b1e) reliable, faithful, trusty 1c) (Hiphil) 1c1) to stand firm, to trust, to be certain, to believe in 1c1a) stand firm 1c1b) trust, believe
You see Joel, all of those qualities seem to be talking about how I myself - a real person - really relates to others, especially God. Its not a "mystical substance" transfered from Christ to me. To say that "when God grants the faith to me, I am enabled to believe" doesn't make any sense to me, because the word "faith" and "believe" mean the same thing. So that statement really sounds like this:

"when God grants the faith to me, I am enabled to have faith, and righteousness is reckoned, on the basis of faith, to me and to all who may be granted the faith as well."

The challenge is that I can not see any real connection between faith and righteousness in that formulation of the Gospel.


צדקה tsedaqah {tsed-aw-kaw'} from 06663; TWOT - 1879b; n f AV - righteousness 128, justice 15, right 9, righteous acts 3, moderately 1, righteously 1; 157 1) justice, righteousness 1a) righteousness (in government) 1a1) of judge, ruler, king 1a2) of law 1a3) of Davidic king Messiah 1b) righteousness (of God's attribute) 1c) righteousness (in a case or cause) 1d) righteousness, truthfulness 1e) righteousness (as ethically right) 1f) righteousness (as vindicated), justification, salvation 1f1) of God 1f2) prosperity (of people) 1g) righteous actsWhen we look at the real meaning of "righteousness" we see that it is fundamentally connected with faith. I'm still working this out, but it seems that, in general, righteousness is the condition that obtains when a soul is faithful in relationship to another. Thus, a judge will be righteous if he is faithful in his duties as a judge. The Bible speaks of a "just weight" which means a weight that faithfully matches the standard used to measure the relationship between things traded. That makes real sense. The words have real meaning.

Now in your second post, you observed that our faith was made possible by the faith of Christ, and you supported this idea with the order of "faith" in Romans, where salvation to all who have the "faith of Christ" is declared in Romans 3 before the "reckoning of faith" is found in Romans 4. I don't disagree with that at all. Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith. But that should not be read as meaning that our faith is "given" like a substance from God, since then "faith" seems to lose its normal, literal meaning, as well as its connection with the idea of righteousness.

I think to really get this cleared up, we need to establish the real meaning of the words "faith" and "righteousness" and their relation to each other, and then read the Bible in light of that.

Richard

[shalag]

Abraham's faith - Oswald Chambers

Just a short quote in relation to what Joel is saying about our faith being His faith.
Faith is not that we see God, but that we know God sees us. I was thinking of the Roman centurion's faith. He was not a 'baptized follower' but yet do to his position in the Roman army he knew that if a Word was given, it was a 'done deal'. And Jesus even remarked:

Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, "Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!In both cases - Abraham when he believed God - and the centurion when he believed Jesus - it was because of the Word that went forth.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Abraham's faith - Oswald Chambers

Just a short quote in relation to what Joel is saying about our faith being His faith. I was thinking of the Roman centurion's faith. He was not a 'baptized follower' but yet do to his position in the Roman army he knew that if a Word was given, it was a 'done deal'. And Jesus even remarked:
In both cases - Abraham when he believed God - and the centurion when he believed Jesus - it was because of the Word that went forth.


Yes indeed, we believe in response to the Word of God that He sends forth. But I really do think that "faith" describes the response of our own heart and soul and mind to the message. It may be that the "ability" to believe is somehow "granted" by God, but the word "believe" really seems to describe the action of a human soul in response to God's revelation.

Richard

[shalag]

I was looking at the root of faith am)

and simply looking at the letters is the picture of ALEF 'The Master's (Jehovahs) MEM NUN manna'. Again faith being tied to the bread of heaven - His Word. When looking at the first three uses of am) it also presents the picture of Christ's life.
Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Genesis 42:20 But bring your youngest brother unto me; so shall your words be verified, and ye shall not die. And they did so.

Genesis 45:26 And told him, saying, Joseph is yet alive, and he is governor over all the land of Egypt. And Jacob's heart fainted, for he believed them not.God gave a Word to Abraham - a son - established by His Word. Genesis (1) 15:6 (21) = 22/TAV/Cross

In Genesis 42:20 Benjamin (son of the right hand) must be brought (in the flesh), that the word be verifed and that 'ye shall not die'.

InGenesis (1) 45:26 (71/20th prime /Reish) Jacob does not believe the witness and testimony of his sons. Look at the gematria of this verse (1) (signature of) Jehovah (45) Adam (26) (Jehovah) - a picture of (1) Jehovah (45) sending the second man (Adam), His son, from heaven appearing in the flesh (26) the only begotten of Jehovah. The 'prophetic Word confirmed' - so 'that ye may not die'.
John 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your father did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live forever.
This verse is preceded by the 'breaking of the bread' and drinking of his blood - faith to be joined in communion.
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=heb+12:2&sr=1&t=nkj)looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
The Discipline of God
(Prov. 3:11, 12)

3 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=heb+12:3&sr=1&t=nkj)For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=heb+12:4&sr=1&t=nkj)You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=heb+12:5&sr=1&t=nkj)And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

"My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,

Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;

6 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=heb+12:6&sr=1&t=nkj)For whom the LORD loves He chastens,

And scourges every son whom He receives."

7 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=heb+12:7&sr=1&t=nkj)If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=heb+12:8&sr=1&t=nkj)But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=heb+12:9&sr=1&t=nkj)Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=heb+12:10&sr=1&t=nkj)For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=heb+12:11&sr=1&t=nkj)Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Revelation 2:17 ]He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it."

[joel]

Richard, in trying to keep this very consequential discussion on a simple plane, let's view the word of God as a seed.

Within the seed is the life. It is sown into the earth, and, it germinates. The earth and elements all play a part in bringing forth the life contained within the seed.

I see the word of God containing all that is necessary for the life of God to come forth within us. It contains "faith", as well all of the graces of God.

My heart is the soil in this analogy. I do have a part in the preparation of my heart, as I see it. But, I do not have the seed. That must come from God, primarily in the spoken word, but, also in "hearing" when I read the word.

Paul says in I Corinthians that we are God's field (and, His building). He is planting His word (which is Christ, the Word of God) within us, and it is up to us to nurture it, and to safeguard it, and tend to it as would a farmer with his precious crop (we have this treasure in earthen vessels).

The cultivation process is where we enter into the process. We are the stewards who have been entrusted with the field that really belongs to someone else. He seeks to bring forth the "fruit of the spirit" within us, and to express them from our souls......which may be compared to the garden of God.

In another application, we are viewed as God's building. It is in this word picture that we are to bring forth materials. This is where "our faith", as I see it, plays a part. Rather than presenting "wood, hay, and stubble" which will be burned in the fire, we are to bring forth, "gold, silver and precious stones" which will be used to adorn the edifice and will be purified even more by any fire applied.

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I was looking at the root of faith am)

and simply looking at the letters is the picture of ALEF 'The Master's (Jehovahs) MEM NUN manna'. Again faith being tied to the bread of heaven - His Word.
Hi Shalag,

Yes indeed, I think the "word picture" can add some valid insights into the meaning of faith, and I appreciate your post. But my purpose right now is to lay the "lower level foundation" of the ordinary meaning of the words "faith" and "righteousness" so we can understand their relation to each other and how they convey the real meaning of the Gospel. The challenge for me is that the Gospel becomes literally meaningless if the words we use to express it don't have any real meaning. If "my faith" is not really "my faith" and if "righteousness" is imputed not because of "my faith" in Christ, then what does it all mean? And what is the connection between faith and righteousness anyway? Does God simply "declare" we are righteous when in fact we are not righteous, or do we really become righteous through faith in God? Or is it all a "legal fiction" where God declares - like a judge from the bench - that we are righteous because of Christ? That is the pop theory known as the "Forensic Theory of Atonement" and it was invented at the time of the Reformation, which is not surprising since Calvin was a LAWYER :eek: . And since its just a theory, we don't necessarily have to believe it, any more than all the Christians who lived during the first 1600 years since Christ believed it (since they never heard of it!). The problem with these ideas is that they seem to break the organic, real, true, and innate connection between faith and righteousness. It seems to me that righteousness comes from faith in the same way fruit grows on a tree.

Well, anyway .... I'm just thinking out loud to help everyone in this thread understand the ideas I'm wrestling with, and hoping that we can get the expression of the Gospel grounded in words with real meaning.

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard, in trying to keep this very consequential discussion on a simple plane, let's view the word of God as a seed.
Simplicity is precisely what I am aiming at Joel. Thanks! :thumb:


Within the seed is the life. It is sown into the earth, and, it germinates. The earth and elements all play a part in bringing forth the life contained within the seed.

I see the word of God containing all that is necessary for the life of God to come forth within us. It contains "faith", as well all of the graces of God.
I agree that we are "born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23) But I don't agree that "faith" is a "thing" that can be "contained" in some other "thing" and transferred from one to another like so much cabbage.

I think this is the primary distinction: the word "faith" denotes an ACTION of the soul - like walking, running, talking ... so a person can also be found "believing." Of course, a person can not believe in something he has never heard of, so we must hear the word of God to believe the word of God, as it is written. But to say that God gives us some thing called faith ... I am not sure I find that in the Bible. And it also seems to contradict what the word "faith" means in the first place. Faith is trust. Its something souls do or don't do. Its not some thing given to people.

Please understand I'm not trying to argue at all. I'm just trying to express my thoughts on this so you can set me straight! ;)



My heart is the soil in this analogy. I do have a part in the preparation of my heart, as I see it. But, I do not have the seed. That must come from God, primarily in the spoken word, but, also in "hearing" when I read the word.
Amen! :thumb:



Paul says in I Corinthians that we are God's field (and, His building). He is planting His word (which is Christ, the Word of God) within us, and it is up to us to nurture it, and to safeguard it, and tend to it as would a farmer with his precious crop (we have this treasure in earthen vessels).

The cultivation process is where we enter into the process. We are the stewards who have been entrusted with the field that really belongs to someone else. He seeks to bring forth the "fruit of the spirit" within us, and to express them from our souls......which may be compared to the garden of God.
Yes, but those words are all metaphors, and they must not be taken to mean that we really are just earthen pots. We know that would be wrong, because God is not Himself an earthen pot, and the Bible says we are sons of God, made in His image.

So it seems to me that the Gospel says that we will be right with God if we believe in Him and trust and obey Him.


In another application, we are viewed as God's building. It is in this word picture that we are to bring forth materials. This is where "our faith", as I see it, plays a part. Rather than presenting "wood, hay, and stubble" which will be burned in the fire, we are to bring forth, "gold, silver and precious stones" which will be used to adorn the edifice and will be purified even more by any fire applied.

Joel
Yes, that is very good, but it seems like you are saying that "my" faith plays no role in "my" salvation! It seems like you are saying that I am a clay pot and that God plants the seed and then I believe in Jesus. That's the Calvinist view of the ordo salutis (http://www.gotquestions.org/ordo-salutis.html) - the order of salvation. They believe that God first saves a soul and regenerates it, so then it can believe the Gospel. But most of the Bible suggest the opposite idea, that belief precedes salvation:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Acts 16:31 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

In almost all cases, belief precedes salvation. Of course, the one famous exception to this rule is found in Acts 13:48

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

But we need not get lost in the debate of free will and its relation to salvation and God's eternal decrees. If you want to discuss that, there is a thread open and waiting! My point here in this thread is that the real, true, organic, and meaningful connection between faith, righteousness, and salvation seems to be lost in the Calvinist presentation of the Gospel. (Not that I'm saying you are a Calvinist ... but you must agree, I presume, that they would agree with the doctrine you are teaching, correct? And if you are a Calvinist, that's fine! Its not as if there is something wrong with that :lol: )

As always, I really appreciate your help in sorting out these very important doctrinal issues.

God bless!

Richard

[Rose]

Hi Joel :yo:

Rose, I understand that you see it that way, as do many others whom I have spoken with concerning this matter.

It is instructive to differentiate between ...."the faith of Jesus Christ"....and my faith "in Jesus Christ".

I do not believe that faith exists within anyone until it is placed there by God.
Nor do I believe that hope (expectation) exists within anyone, nor, does love (agapae) until God, by means of His spirit, grants such gifts.

It is what we do with them, when received, that characterizes our life which when after we received, we can say that it is "our" faith, "our" expectation, "our" love only in the sense that we have been given these spiritual graces by God, and they have been expressed in edifying others as He enables us to be the channel of the graces.

Joel

I understand the difference between my faith in Jesus and having the Faith of Christ, the second following the first I believe, because I have to believe in Jesus as the Son of God before I can receive the Faith of Christ. But I'm still unclear as to why you say God places the faith within us? :confused2:

What do I need to do, if anything to receive the faith to believe in Christ?

Does everyone have the opportunity to receive the gift of faith so they can believe?

Rose

[joel]

Does everyone have the opportunity to receive the gift of faith so they can believe?

Rose


Rose, it is my belief that God brings His word, and when it comes, it carries within it everything that is necessary for us to believe.

Romans 10:17
So faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes, verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Has there been opportunity for everyone to believe? It appears so according to the above verse. It does not, however, end our testimony whenever we are given the opportunity.


So, Rose, you have been given some of what I believe and I am not surprised nor dismayed if what I say about the faith is unusual in that it is not necessarily aligned with the norm. I am not a Calvinist, nor an arminian, nor anything else for that matter. I do not study the belief systems of the historical sects of the outward "faith".

In that spirit, I will say to you something that I do believe that is not in common, as far as I know, with such systems. And that is.........God will ultimately save all. Not just some, not just a few, not just the "elect", not just those who respond in a certain way.......but, all.

And, He has purposed to do this in two major phases; the eonian periods when the elect will be given faith, and, the consummation when all the remainder will "see" Him and believe.

You see, it is my belief that if you are the elect, you cannot help but be saved during the time of your life. This is due to His sovereign choice being made before the eons when He predesignated those He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Son, that He might have many brethren (Romans 8:29). ......"whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified" (Romans 8:30).

As I read those verses, no one had a part to play in any of the events of the sequence, except to receive. When God calls, he justifies. There is no provision for "rejection" in that sequence, unless it is interjected. If that is so, then, He must also supply the faith to believe.

And, it is not a matter of you and I being "robots" who have no choice in the matter at all, because we have all been locked up together in "stubbornness". If you look closer to this word, you will find that it actually refers to "unpersuadableness". All of us are this way, before we hear the message of His gospel.

But HIs love overwhelms me. And when He unlocks the door of unpersuadeableness, I begin to respond to His truth...and ultimately I am persuaded, but with His loving assistance not due to anything that is within me as a source.

Joel

[shalag]

Back in the 90's I heard a word in my Spirit to embark on a trip into Israel and join a group there travelling further to the USSR for release of the Jews into Israel. Having 'faith' in what I heard, I signed my name on the dotted line to leave on a certain date. That day came, and I became violently ill, but arrived at the airport hoping I would recover sufficiently by the time I reached New York for my connection to Israel. Instead I landed in the hospital, missing all planes. But before I was transported to the hospital I felt the power of God come upon me and after being seemingly unconscious and waking I asked my husband to rebook the ticket three days from that time and I was specific with the time for reasons unbeknownsdt even to me. Since it was the season of Passover in Israel airlines were overbooked. They booked me into New York but could not book to Israel. At the hospital they decided it was necessary for me to see the chief surgeon who came and introduced himself, "Hello, I am Dr. Moses". (He was a secular Jew God had put in my path). After being released I still need to catch the plane but there was NO flight available for over two weeks into Israel yet I had two days before I would be in New York. I called a friend who was an intercessor. Her reply to me was, 'If you heard from God, then I guess you will have to go on faith". I also had an 8 week old puppy that I was to deliver to a friend on a moshav over there so it wasn't a 'simple' matter. I gathered my things and the pup with all but one intercessor telling me that I was 'deluded' and to be honest at this point almost doubting myself. This was the crisis test for me. When I arrived in NY I was number 5 standby which would grow to 11 of us waiting and told time and again - there was no room. The plane was to leave at midnight. One hour before the plane was to leave the weather overseas took a drastic turn and they would not be able to fly nonstop as planned. They would refuel at Greece which means they could increase their load - and all eleven of us were able to board the plane.

Before leaving people were telling me, "God's love will still be there for you whether you go or not'. I had to BELIEVE that I had heard from God. And to be honest - if I had arrived in New York and not caught the flight to Israel I was planning on chucking it all right there. I would NOT have known faith had I not 'walked' on what I believed I had heard.

I believed I heard the Word of God - - and I acted on it.

[Rose]

Hello again Joel :yo: and thank you for sharing your views, it gives me a opportunity to understand you better and in so doing I can clarify my beliefs.


In that spirit, I will say to you something that I do believe that is not in common, as far as I know, with such systems. And that is.........God will ultimately save all. Not just some, not just a few, not just the "elect", not just those who respond in a certain way.......but, all.

And, He has purposed to do this in two major phases; the eonian periods when the elect will be given faith, and, the consummation when all the remainder will "see" Him and believe.

You see, it is my belief that if you are the elect, you cannot help but be saved during the time of your life. This is due to His sovereign choice being made before the eons when He predesignated those He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Son, that He might have many brethren (Romans 8:29). ......"whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified" (Romans 8:30).


As I read those verses, no one had a part to play in any of the events of the sequence, except to receive. When God calls, he justifies. There is no provision for "rejection" in that sequence, unless it is interjected. If that is so, then, He must also supply the faith to believe.

We differ somewhat on our idea of mans "free will". I hold people to personal responsibility for their "free will" let me clarify.......
First I believe we are made in the image of God, which to me means that like God we have the "free will" to create our own thoughts, and God foreknowing those thoughts calls us according to His purpose.

The way I see Rom 8:28- is:
God calls (invites) those that love Him, to partake in the plan He has set forth, and because He has knowledge before hand of what we are going to do (using our free will), He can determine ahead of time the way He will conform (fashion) us to be like the image of Jesus, so that Jesus might have many brethren, making Him the firstborn of us all.

So those who God knows before hand will respond to His invitation to be named brothers of Jesus, by accepting Him as our Savior, He has freed from sin, justifying us and making us righteous, and those who are made righteous are glorified, which is to be honored by God.

Now addressing your point of "salvation to all" I almost agree with you except...... although I feel the offer of salvation is given to all, because it says whosoever thirsts is invited to come and drink.

Isaiah 55:1 " Ho! Everyone who thirsts, Come to the waters;.....

Rev 21:6 ....I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.

Rev 22:17 "....And let him who thirsts come. Whosoever desires, let him take the water of life freely."

I think there will be some who are so hardened in their hearts they will refuse to repent and receive the free gift of salvation, but......again I say the offer is given to all.

Praise God for His everlasting mercy :pray:

Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Rose, it is my belief that God brings His word, and when it comes, it carries within it everything that is necessary for us to believe.

Romans 10:17
So faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes, verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Has there been opportunity for everyone to believe? It appears so according to the above verse. It does not, however, end our testimony whenever we are given the opportunity.
Hi Joel!

This is really getting interesting! Thanks again for sharing your insights. But as for the Gospel going out into "all the earth" and "unto the ends of the world" - those words do not necessarily mean the entire planet earth. Indeed, their context would make it very difficult for me to think that. On the other hand, the word earth (ge') also is used to denote the land of Israel or even just a region like the land (ge') of Bethlehem (Matt 2:6). Likewise, the "world" is oikonomia which usually denotes a limited region, as in Luke 2:1 "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world (oikonomia) should be taxed."

So I think the true intepretation of Romans 10:18 is that the Gospel had gone out to all the nations in the Roman empire, the "ends of the earth" as seen from first century Israel. This then confirms the Words of Jesus, when He said that Matthew 24:14 "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world (oikonomia) for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." And again the Word of Christ is confirmed, when He said Matthew 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."


So, Rose, you have been given some of what I believe and I am not surprised nor dismayed if what I say about the faith is unusual in that it is not necessarily aligned with the norm. I am not a Calvinist, nor an arminian, nor anything else for that matter. I do not study the belief systems of the historical sects of the outward "faith".

In that spirit, I will say to you something that I do believe that is not in common, as far as I know, with such systems. And that is.........God will ultimately save all. Not just some, not just a few, not just the "elect", not just those who respond in a certain way.......but, all.
I am strongly inclined to believe that too, though I am still "in process" of coming to a solid conclusion. Of course, Christian Universalism is a logical necessity if we assume the real truth of 1 Timothy 2:4, that God really truly desires "all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."


And, He has purposed to do this in two major phases; the eonian periods when the elect will be given faith, and, the consummation when all the remainder will "see" Him and believe.

You see, it is my belief that if you are the elect, you cannot help but be saved during the time of your life. This is due to His sovereign choice being made before the eons when He predesignated those He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Son, that He might have many brethren (Romans 8:29). ......"whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified" (Romans 8:30).
I understand what you are saying, except the thing about being "given faith." The problem is that the meaning of "believing God" seems to evaporate into an undefined mist. You are not using the word "faith" in an ordinary sense, so I don't know what the word means. You could just as well be saying that we are saved by zicklegoop. When I use the word "faith" to tell the Gospel, it has exactly the same meaning as when I say that I am joined to my wife through "faith" or that I am "faithful" to my wife. It refers to an action of my body, soul, and spirit. It is not something that can be "given to me." It is something I have to do. (But don't confuse that with works, please. Remember, faith is not a work.)



As I read those verses, no one had a part to play in any of the events of the sequence, except to receive. When God calls, he justifies. There is no provision for "rejection" in that sequence, unless it is interjected. If that is so, then, He must also supply the faith to believe.

And, it is not a matter of you and I being "robots" who have no choice in the matter at all, because we have all been locked up together in "stubbornness". If you look closer to this word, you will find that it actually refers to "unpersuadableness". All of us are this way, before we hear the message of His gospel.
What word are you talking about?



But HIs love overwhelms me. And when He unlocks the door of unpersuadeableness, I begin to respond to His truth...and ultimately I am persuaded, but with His loving assistance not due to anything that is within me as a source.

Joel
OK - you responded to God. Does that mean that you made a choice?

Richard

[Stephen]

Evening Richard and Joel!

I just want to add a few comments to supplement some of the recent debate.

The verse at Romans 10:18 is a direct quote of Psalm 19:4, so don't you think we need to reference that verse to find the context? Psalm 19 opens by speaking about the heavens before flipping over to the law of God. The writer is comparing the two of them. Bullinger gives some very interesting background data on Psalm 19, co-opting it for his thesis that the stars themselves have a revelation of God. This, he contends, is what the verse quoted by Paul is referring to. His thesis is not without merit in that it deals directly with the verse in its context. He also was an authority on the Hebrew language, unlike the rest of us, who are mere journeymen. Thus, he was able to elucidate the word patterns and metaphorical language used in the original of Psalm 19, as well as its grammatical symmetries, and apply these to strengthen his thesis.

I also must query the idea that God will save everyone. Daniel 12:2 tells me otherwise. Revelation 20:15 tells me otherwise. And then there are verses like Mark 9:42-48. These are just starters. Scripture is littered with references to the fate of wicked people. How then can you gentlemen possibly justify the idea that all shall be saved? Sounds like buddhist philosophy creeping in. What is the purpose of Christ sacrificing himself for us if, in the end, God is going to save everyone anyway? I would have to say that the notion that all shall be saved is nothing short of heresy. Not everyone's name is written in the book of life!

Another point which needs clarification is Jesus' statement at Matthew 24:34. What things do you think he was referring to when he said this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled? He cannot possibly have been speaking about everything up to this point in Matthew 24, because verses 30 and 31 are obviously yet future. So he must have been referring to either a future generation (I definitely do not favour this interpretation), or he was referring to the generation of his time, in which case only some of the things spoken in this chapter apply, and not all things. Matthew 24 seems to be a real mish-mash of quotes from the Lord, and doesn't appear to follow any sequence. I've interpreted these verses as referring to three events: 1) the throwing down of the temple, accomplished in 70 A.D.; 2) signs of his coming; and 3) the end of the world. Only some of the sayings of our Lord at Matthew 24 refer to the coming destruction of the temple.

Stephen

[joel]

I understand what you are saying, except the thing about being "given faith." The problem is that the meaning of "believing God" seems to evaporate into an undefined mist. You are not using the word "faith" in an ordinary sense, so I don't know what the word means. You could just as well be saying that we are saved by zicklegoop. When I use the word "faith" to tell the Gospel, it has exactly the same meaning as when I say that I am joined to my wife through "faith" or that I am "faithful" to my wife. It refers to an action of my body, soul, and spirit. It is not something that can be "given to me." It is something I have to do. (But don't confuse that with works, please. Remember, faith is not a work.)



If we take what Paul says in Romans 10:17 exactly how he says it;
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, then,
we see that it is communicated to us from God in His word.

We are not saved by "zicklegoop".

Our salvation comes to us by means of the gospel, the well-message as presentld by Paul. It cannot be more specific.

Paul said in Romans 1:16,17;
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first , and also to the Greek.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

There are two ways of looking at this; either, 1.) you have within you a grain of faith that is waiting which is "your faith", or, 2.) you do not have the grain of faith in you but it must be placed there by God.

If we look at the verse in Romans 10:17, Paul says that faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Joel

[Rose]

If we take what Paul says in Romans 10:17 exactly how he says it;
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, then,
we see that it is communicated to us from God in His word.

Romans 10: is a wonderful chapter on faith and righteousness.

What Rom 10:17 means to me is that until we hear the Word of God we have nothing to put our faith in.....once we hear God's Word, it triggers a response in us and we make the choice to believe it....thus we have faith in it. So the faith we have comes from the hearing of the Word of God.

Rose

[joel]

The verse at Romans 10:18 is a direct quote of Psalm 19:4,

Psalm 19:4 speaks of the testimony of God's glory that has gone out into all the earth. In the Psalm, David speaks of God's glory being "spoken" through the creation (vs. 1-7) , and, the "law of the Lord" which "speak" of His restoration of the soul, the testimonies which speak wisdom to the simple, His upright precepts which speak joy to the heart, His pure instruction which enlighten the eyes, His clean fear which speaks hope of the future, and His truthful judgments which speak of righteousness altogether.

In Romans, Paul speaks in detail how humanity fails to "listen" and reaps the consequences of their actions which end in wrath upon the soul (this is eonian judgment, not eternal, see below).

As he continues, Paul speaks of the futility of the Jews to follow the law as it cannot bring forth justification, and cannot make righteous.

Man, as Paul asserts, is void of any virtues whatsoever. He is like the earth in Genesis 1:2.
It is when God speaks, and His Spirit moves in Genesis 1:3, that a restoration begins.

It is only in the Gospel, as presented by Paul, that reveals His righteousness which is demonstrated in Christ Jesus, as He lived in the flesh, and, as He was crucified.

The revelation of God's righteousness, as demonstrated by Christ, as revealed by Paul is his gospel, is the focus of God's saving work.


also must query the idea that God will save everyone. Daniel 12:2 tells me otherwise. Revelation 20:15 tells me otherwise. And then there are verses like Mark 9:42-48. These are just starters. Scripture is littered with references to the fate of wicked people. How then can you gentlemen possibly justify the idea that all shall be saved? Sounds like buddhist philosophy creeping in. What is the purpose of Christ sacrificing himself for us if, in the end, God is going to save everyone anyway? I would have to say that the notion that all shall be saved is nothing short of heresy. Not everyone's name is written in the book of life!


We have discussed in other threads that the Greek word "aionios" does not mean "eternal" or "everlasting" in spite of what the reformers interpreted it as......neither does "olam" in the Hebrew mean these concepts either. The purpose of the eons as stated by Paul is for Christ to put all in subjection under His feet, which includes sin and death. In fact we are told that He will destroy and end death, and then He will turn all things back unto the Father, at which point He will even be subject unto Him.......but only after He reconciles all.

You ask......."what is the purpose of Christ sacrificing himself for us if, in the end, God is going to save everyone anyway?"

I can only say what Paul tells us in Romans 5:18;
[I]Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

In seeing this to mean "all men", without exception, and without qualification, to you, as you said, "....is nothing short of heresy". So, Stephen,....that is what your faith declares?

His judgment against sin is not eternal, everlasting, or however you want want to characterize it as lasting forever. That is simply not correct, and is a erroneous view as to God's ultimate plan for humanity.

He is the saviour of all mankind. Not the saviour that wants to save but cannot, or, the savoiur that has given options to man in the long run will consign those who don't accept His offer to pay an eternal penalty.

That simply is not love..........however you may struggle to proclaim it.

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

If we take what Paul says in Romans 10:17 exactly how he says it;
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, then,
we see that it is communicated to us from God in His word.

We are not saved by "zicklegoop".

Our salvation comes to us by means of the gospel, the well-message as presentld by Paul. It cannot be more specific.

Paul said in Romans 1:16,17;
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first , and also to the Greek.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

There are two ways of looking at this; either, 1.) you have within you a grain of faith that is waiting which is "your faith", or, 2.) you do not have the grain of faith in you but it must be placed there by God.

If we look at the verse in Romans 10:17, Paul says that faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Joel
Hello my friend! Please don't get frustrated with me. I am speaking the truth about how things seem to me.

I think I failed to make myself clear. My point about "zicklegoop" was that the word "faith" as you use it, doesn't seem to have the same meaning as the word "faith" as used in the Bible. You are treating the word "faith" as if it were a "thing" that a person does or does not "have." That's not what Paul meant when he said that "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." To understand this, we need to look at the context:




Romans 10:9-17 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Thus we understand that Paul was saying a person can not call on the name of the Lord if he has not heard of the Lord, and a person can not believe that Jesus was raised from the dead if he has not heard that Jesus was raised from the dead. This is the Word that a person must receive if he is to have saving FAITH. But to say that faith itself is mystically transmitted by the preaching of the Gospel does not seem to be what the Bible is talking about. Faith is an ACTION of the soul, for with the heart MAN BELIEVETH unto righteousness. It is the MAN that does the BELIEVING. If not, then what does the word "believe" mean? That's the message I'm trying to communicate to you my friend. The way you use the word "faith" does not seem to connect with the biblical use of the word. It seems instead to be a magical/mystical word that does not connect with anything in the Bible. The Bible tells me to put MY trust in the Lord. If that's not what I am supposed to do, then why does the Bible say it over and over? And if its not MY trust in the Lord, then what is the connection between faith and righteousness anyway? If we use the ordinary and literal meaning of faith and righteousness, then there is a direct, real, true, and meaningful connection between faith and righteousness, and then the Gospel makes real sense to the people who hear it.

Well, that's how things seem to me anyway. I would like to know, regardless of whether you agree or not, if these ideas make any sense to you, or have I still failed to adequately express my point of view?

Thanks again bro .... this is a very valuable conversation.

Richard

[Stephen]

Hi Joel!

Thank you for your reply. I must say that I can in no way accept your exoneration of all human beings. This word all is one that needs to be taken very carefully in language use, not only in English but in Bible translation as well. I noted one such instance in Matthew 24:34, where the phrase all these things could not possibly refer to all the events Matthew had just recorded from the mouth of our Lord. There are several other instances where the word all seems to contain a meaning other than literally meaning 'everything'.

Romans 5:18 refers to Christ offering the free gift of life to all men. Note that it is a gift, and most people will reject that gift. So they are not saved and are reserved to destruction. That is the consequence of rejecting life. There will be no get out of jail free card after that.

I found your reasoning that God will save everyone to be thoroughly unconvincing. How can you use your own standard to say what love is and what love isn't? If God says He is going to destroy the wicked, which He does throughout the Bible, that is His prerogative. He means what He says. How can you say that God is not love if He allows the wicked to be destroyed?! Who are we to tell God what love is?! Please!

A word of caution in regard to the use of the words aionios and olam. If they don't carry the meaning of 'eternal' and 'everlasting', then what Greek and Hebrew words do? If you can't find what words do, then the onus is on you to prove that the Hebrews and Greeks had no concept of eternity, if they don't have words for it. Again, we all need to be very careful in our analysis of Hebrew and Greek words. None of us at this forum are authorities in either language. We also did not live in the times when the Bible was written, so all our lexicons are guidelines only. We need to be careful not to make ourselves authorities in things which we are not, such as biblical languages. We also need to be careful not to anachronise, and to impose modern interpretations upon ancient concepts. This is what you are doing with the word olam.

The Lord warned us to fear Him who is able to destroy body and soul in hellfire. The souls of men will be destroyed by God, which is a necessary thing. If evil is allowed to go on forever, there can be no resolution of the biblical drama. Adam and Eve were denied access to the tree of life because the taint of death was upon them. This death will be annihilated, and the souls of those who are dead will be annihilated. Not all will be saved according to the Bible. That is a buddhist doctrine, not a biblical doctrine. If you want to justify that belief, which I believe is heretical, you are going to have to rally a swag of scriptures to your cause. You are then going to have to compare them to hundreds of verses that deal with the destruction of the wicked. But saying that 'it just isn't love' carries no weight whatsoever.

A mass of scriptural evidence, please Joel. Nothing else will suffice!

Stephen

[joel]

I found your reasoning that God will save everyone to be thoroughly unconvincing.

Stephen,

I am not offended. How can I be? It is not up to me to convince you of this......but, I must declare what I believe, just as you have so declared what you believe.

Faith is a gift. It comes from God.

And, you obviously believe that we can reject God's gifts indefinitely. I suppose your claim is that it is our choice of Him, and His gifts, that is the ultimate deciding factor, according to your way of thinking.

I would prefer, however, that you do not characterize the salvation of all as heresy. It would be preferrable to just let it remain that you do not believe this aspect of God's revelation.


If we use the ordinary and literal meaning of faith and righteousness, then there is a direct, real, true, and meaningful connection between faith and righteousness, and then the Gospel makes real sense to the people who hear it.


Richard,

I do not believe that the gospel has to first make sense to anyone. It is a revelation. Only God, by His spirit, can unveil truth to anyone.

Faith is both a gift, and a fruit.

To me, it is first a gift that I receive. Such a presentation causes me to "see", with spiritual eyes, not with physical. I do not understand it, as with my mind, so that I can explain it to others. I must testify as to what I "see", and let the results be up to God.

Secondly, faith is a fruit. It is to be nurtured, and protected.

Joel

[Rose]

Hello Richard :yo:

Going back to your second question on this thread: "How would folks define God's Righteousness?" I would like to share some thoughts.

Rom 1:17.....the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith (telling me Gods righteousness is revealed through faith).

Rom 3:22.....the righteousness of God (is known) through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and upon all that believe (once again- Gods righteousness is known through faith).

and in Rom 3:26 Jesus Christ "Himself" declares the righteousness of God (Jesus being the righteousness of God).

We know that faith is reckoned for righteousness and circumcision was the sign and seal showing that righteousness was imputed to Abraham because of his faith.

We can have the same faith being uncircumcised as Abraham had when he was uncircumcised and it is equally counted to us as righteousness.

Our faith in Christ is counted as us being in a state of righteousness.

Gods Faithfulness is without end.....God is Righteous.....because righteousness is Gods state of being, manifest in the Lord Jesus Christ!

Praise be to God forevermore! :pray:

Rose

[Rose]

I was just looking up the number of occurrences of the word righteousness in the Bible, and it should have been no surprise to me to find Spoke 1 of the Bible Wheel the "God spoke" leading with the total number of times. Isaiah came in with 49 times and Romans close behind with 33!.... WOW.... A full head and shoulders above the rest!

Must be telling us something......:rolleyes:

Rose

P.S. Psalms does have the most for a single book.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Another point which needs clarification is Jesus' statement at Matthew 24:34. What things do you think he was referring to when he said this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled? He cannot possibly have been speaking about everything up to this point in Matthew 24, because verses 30 and 31 are obviously yet future. So he must have been referring to either a future generation (I definitely do not favour this interpretation), or he was referring to the generation of his time, in which case only some of the things spoken in this chapter apply, and not all things. Matthew 24 seems to be a real mish-mash of quotes from the Lord, and doesn't appear to follow any sequence. I've interpreted these verses as referring to three events: 1) the throwing down of the temple, accomplished in 70 A.D.; 2) signs of his coming; and 3) the end of the world. Only some of the sayings of our Lord at Matthew 24 refer to the coming destruction of the temple.

Stephen
Hey there Stephen,

This point is way off topic for this thread, but since you brought it up, and I find it very interesting, I decided to make a new thread where we can discuss it. Its called "This Generation (Matthew 24:34) (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2396#post2396)"

RAM

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I was just looking up the number of occurrences of the word righteousness in the Bible, and it should have been no surprise to me to find Spoke 1 of the Bible Wheel the "God spoke" leading with the total number of times. Isaiah came in with 49 times and Romans close behind with 33!.... WOW.... A full head and shoulders above the rest!

Must be telling us something......:rolleyes:

Rose

P.S. Psalms does have the most for a single book.
Hi Rose,

Excellent observations! I talk about the distribtution of Righteousness in my article on Spoke 18 called "To Fulfill All Righteousness (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Tsaddi_Matt.asp)." Here's the graph of the distribution of all words based on the Hebrew and Greek roots meaning righteousness (tsadek and dikaio):


http://www.biblewheel.com/images/RighteousStrongs_Bible.gif

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Evening Richard and Joel!

I just want to add a few comments to supplement some of the recent debate.

The verse at Romans 10:18 is a direct quote of Psalm 19:4, so don't you think we need to reference that verse to find the context?
A-B-S-O-L-U-T-E-L-Y


Psalm 19 opens by speaking about the heavens before flipping over to the law of God. The writer is comparing the two of them. Bullinger gives some very interesting background data on Psalm 19, co-opting it for his thesis that the stars themselves have a revelation of God. This, he contends, is what the verse quoted by Paul is referring to. His thesis is not without merit in that it deals directly with the verse in its context. He also was an authority on the Hebrew language, unlike the rest of us, who are mere journeymen. Thus, he was able to elucidate the word patterns and metaphorical language used in the original of Psalm 19, as well as its grammatical symmetries, and apply these to strengthen his thesis.
Well, I am ambivalent about the "Gospel in the Stars" thesis. On the one hand, there are some interesting correlations between Zodiac and the Gospel. Bullinger starts with Virgo (= The Virgin) and moves on through the 12 signs ... but I'm not sure how much of that could be done with any story with sufficient meaning or depth. For example, the Matrix movie can be mapped onto the Gospel rather directly. And there is the question of the origin of the zodiac. Why should we think it is of God? But on the other hand, it seems that many ancient Christians and Jews took the validity of the zodiac as a given ... :confused2:


I also must query the idea that God will save everyone. Daniel 12:2 tells me otherwise. Revelation 20:15 tells me otherwise. And then there are verses like Mark 9:42-48. These are just starters. Scripture is littered with references to the fate of wicked people. How then can you gentlemen possibly justify the idea that all shall be saved? Sounds like buddhist philosophy creeping in. What is the purpose of Christ sacrificing himself for us if, in the end, God is going to save everyone anyway? I would have to say that the notion that all shall be saved is nothing short of heresy. Not everyone's name is written in the book of life!
There are competing verses, Stephen. They must be interpreted in light of all the other competitors. The question then becomes "Which interpretation works best for the most verses?" And that, of course, is not easy to answer ....

As for your question sentence that I highlighted - let me ask you the converse question: What is the purpose of Christ sacrificing himself for someone if, in the end, God fails to save them anyway? The Calvinist answer to that question is "None" - which is why it gave rise to their Doctrine of Limited Atonement (the L in TULIP).

But really, I don't think there is any connection between the Purpose of Christ's Sacrifice and the number of souls ultimately saved, unless, of course, that number were zero. And now that I think of it, it seems like the glory of Christ's work should increase with every soul saved, so that universal salvation through Christ's Work on the Cross would maximize God's glorious, and prove that Love conquers all.

Richard

[joel]

As for your question sentence that I highlighted - let me ask you the converse question: What is the purpose of Christ sacrificing himself for someone if, in the end, God fails to save them anyway? The Calvinist answer to that question is "None" - which is why it gave rise to their Doctrine of Limited Atonement (the L in TULIP).

But really, I don't think there is any connection between the Purpose of Christ's Sacrifice and the number of souls ultimately saved, unless, of course, that number were zero. And now that I think of it, it seems like the glory of Christ's work should increase with every soul saved, so that universal salvation through Christ's Work on the Cross would maximize God's glorious, and prove that Love conquers all.

Richard
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Please allow me to state, in case there may be any doubt as to how I look at this, that Christ's sacrificial death is sufficient for the salvation of all of mankind. In other words, His blood is sufficient for the covering over of all sins.
Just as surely as all men die, and just as surely as all men sin......all due to the disobedience of Adam (it is universal, there are no exceptions unless God takes someone out by His sovereign choice).........................
Just as surely, all men shall be saved.......all due to the obedience of Christ
(it is universal, and there are no exceptions).

I Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially those that believe.

Who is not included in that statement?

Is He "potentially" the Saviour of all men, in that He has provided a means, but, due to man's "free will choice" he can override God's purpose?
Man man daily go against His will, but no one can override His purpose.

When someone says......"The salvation of all opens the door for man to commit sin upon sin, upon sin .......what does it matter??....He will forgive us anyway"......such a statement is in direct opposition of the clear teaching of Romans 6 where Paul asks the question....."Shall we continue in sin that grace should abound?.....His answer....."God forbid"....he continues to prove that such a person who would make such a statement is ignorant about the truth of the crucifixion of Christ that is inclusive of each of us.

Did only a few get crucified with Christ?.....as if the two with him at the time of His death were representative of only a few of humanity?......No....our old humanity was crucified with Christ........"In that one died, we all died."......how plain does scripture have to be??

Of course your flesh, and my flesh does not want to be consigned to the cross.....but, that is exactly where it must be consigned.

To what glory is that God cannot and does not save all? Doesn't the parable of the lost sheep teach us that He will leave the 99 and go and find the lost one?

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

When someone says......"The salvation of all opens the door for man to commit sin upon sin, upon sin .......what does it matter??....He will forgive us anyway"......such a statement is in direct opposition of the clear teaching of Romans 6 where Paul asks the question....."Shall we continue in sin that grace should abound?.....His answer....."God forbid"....he continues to prove that such a person who would make such a statement is ignorant about the truth of the crucifixion of Christ that is inclusive of each of us.
Hey there Joel,

I agree, particularly with the sentence I highlighted ... and would amplify the answer by noting that the purpose of the Gospel is more than just getting souls to heaven. If that's all God wanted to do, there would be no purpose in creation at all.


Did only a few get crucified with Christ?.....as if the two with him at the time of His death were representative of only a few of humanity?......No....our old humanity was crucified with Christ........"In that one died, we all died."......how plain does scripture have to be??
Well, I agree that that passage has a valid universalist intepretation, but its not the only possible interpretation. The word "all" is limited in the two cases by "all in Adam" and "all in Christ." People can get confused because the "all in Adam" is identical to the everyone ever born, whereas the "all" in Christ could be limited to those who believe in him.


To what glory is that God cannot and does not save all? Doesn't the parable of the lost sheep teach us that He will leave the 99 and go and find the lost one?

Joel
99% + 1% = 100% Saved, to the Glory of God through Christ.

[joel]

Well, I agree that that passage has a valid universalist intepretation, but its not the only possible interpretation. The word "all" is limited in the two cases by "all in Adam" and "all in Christ." People can get confused because the "all in Adam" is identical to the everyone ever born, whereas the "all" in Christ could be limited to those who believe in him.



Richard, we seem to be tracking together except for this one point.

If being in Adam = all people without exception (none of them having anything to do with it),
why is the being in Christ = a limited number, less than all?

Is God comparing apples with oranges?

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard, we seem to be tracking together except for this one point.

If being in Adam = all people without exception (none of them having anything to do with it),
why is the being in Christ = a limited number, less than all?

Is God comparing apples with oranges?

Joel
I don't think its a "apples and oranges" situation. It like two buckets. One bucket is Adam, the other is Christ. All in bucket Adam die, and all in bucket Christ live. Now it just so happens that everyone is born in bucket Adam, but not everyone enters bucket Christ, becuase some don't have faith.

My point is that the verse allows for both a universalist and a limited interepretation, so it, by itself, can not settle the issue. For example, if someone can successfully prove that not everyone will be "in Christ" then the "all in Adam" could not be identical to the "all in Christ." And since that seems to be the actual teaching of the Bible, I find myself leaning towards anihilationism over universalism. But there are other verses that makes me think all will eventually come to faith, so the issue is still open.

Richard.

[joel]

I find myself leaning towards anihilationism over universalism. But there are other verses that makes me think all will eventually come to faith, so the issue is still open.

Richard.
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I assume that what you mean by "anihilationism" is that those who are not "saved" do not, in fact, any longer exist.

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I assume that what you mean by "anihilationism" is that those who are not "saved" do not, in fact, any longer exist.

Joel
Precisely. God is "able to destroy both body and soul in hell." (Matt 10:28) In this interpretation, the unquenchable fire that Christ warns us of will do what fires do, and utterly consume everything cast into it. The wicked will be nothing but ash, as it is written:



Malachi 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.


There are many other verses that teach anihilation of the wicked. Porbably many more than those that can be interpreted as teaching eternal conscious torment, though I haven't done a count yet.

Richard