View Full Version : Redeemed from the Curse
Gal. 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:….28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: forye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Rev.22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
If Christ has redeemed us from the curse that was imposed upon Adam and Eve after the fall when they were expelled from the Garden, why is it that certain apostles like Paul chose to place upon women a continuation of that curse when they themselves preach freedom? Just as many Jews chose to remain under the bondage of the law instead of choosing freedom in Christ, so it seems some of those who chose freedom from that bondage still impose upon women rules of their own making!
All of the often quoted verses of the New Testament that men love to dominate women with are written from the hands of those who are speaking from freedom they themselves have in Christ, yet seemingly find no fault in placing bondage on the lives of women already burdened under the rule of men. It causes me to wonder….did Paul not read his own words that there is neither male nor female in Christ, and that all are redeemed from the curse? :confused: Why fall again under the yoke of bondage that Christ has freed us from? And it has truly been a yoke of bondage for many women....:eek:
Gal. 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Rose
gregoryfl
08-02-2010, 04:26 PM
What, as defined from the Law itself, is the curse of it? That would be a good starting point, for when we know what the curse itself is, then we can know for sure what it is that we have been set free from.
Ron
Gal. 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:….28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: forye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Rev.22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
If Christ has redeemed us from the curse that was imposed upon Adam and Eve after the fall when they were expelled from the Garden, why is it that certain apostles like Paul chose to place upon women a continuation of that curse when they themselves preach freedom? Just as many Jews chose to remain under the bondage of the law instead of choosing freedom in Christ, so it seems some of those who chose freedom from that bondage still impose upon women rules of their own making!
All of the often quoted verses of the New Testament that men love to dominate women with are written from the hands of those who are speaking from freedom they themselves have in Christ, yet seemingly find no fault in placing bondage on the lives of women already burdened under the rule of men. It causes me to wonder….did Paul not read his own words that there is neither male nor female in Christ, and that all are redeemed from the curse? :confused: Why fall again under the yoke of bondage that Christ has freed us from? And it has truly been a yoke of bondage for many women....:eek:
Gal. 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Rose
Wow! Rose of Yakima,
this is very personal to you.......
and obviously........important to your involvement in the message of our faith.
Can I assist you in realizing the role of the woman in the ministry of the gospel through Adam, your husband Richard, your link to God and His Christ through him, your head?
Joel
Richard Amiel McGough
08-02-2010, 05:06 PM
Wow! Rose of Yakima,
this is very personal to you.......
and obviously........important to your involvement in the message of our faith.
Can I assist you in realizing the role of the woman in the ministry of the gospel through Adam, your husband Richard, your link to God and His Christ through him, your head?
Joel
Hi Joel,
Maybe you can help me understand too! I don't feel like I am Rose's head. Nor do I stand between her and God. I feel we stand completely equally before God and each other. I understand that male dominance is in the Bible and I know that it is upheld in traditional Christian teachings, but I don't think it is correct. I think it represents a backward cultural tradition from 2000 years ago. I don't think such traditions are the part of the Bible that we should understand as revealing eternal truth.
I look forward to learning from you on this.
Richard
alec cotton
08-03-2010, 01:58 AM
Hi Joel,
Maybe you can help me understand too! I don't feel like I am Rose's head. Nor do I stand between her and God. I feel we stand completely equally before God and each other. I understand that male dominance is in the Bible and I know that it is upheld in traditional Christian teachings, but I don't think it is correct. I think it represents a backward cultural tradition from 2000 years ago. I don't think such traditions are the part of the Bible that we should understand as revealing eternal truth.
I look forward to learning from you on this.
Richard
Now that IS enlightening. I was convinced that You,Richard ,accepted the bible as the only standard, and now you back away from it when it doesn't suit your palate. Paul taught that the man was to be the head of the houshold To illustrate his point , He drew on the obvious custom of wearing headgear to show authority. Men have always worn headwear to show their power. The zulu indunas wore a head ring The american chiefs wore the head dress of feathers . Kings wear crowns. Army officers wear a cap with scrambled egg all over. When a man formally removes his hat it is a symbol of lowering his dignity. When we were children everyone wore a hat. When a funeral passed a man would always take his hat off. When a man approached a lady he would lift his hat as a token of deference. As the years passed the cutom wore a bit thin . A man would touch the tip of his hat with his finger. I believe that that is where the western millitary salute originated . Now, down to the nitty gritty .A man is the sole earner in the house and the wife is a spendthrift or even a waster. Do I have authority over her to direct where and how the money is to be spent ?. It is pointless to say that it should be by mutual agreement. People should live in harmony. Couples should agree whether to have children or none. " Should " has no value here. We are talking practicalities here. We are also looking at the plain text. Paul was suggesting a shocking practice when he said that a man should pray with his head uncovered. The doctrine of the pharasee demanded that a man wear a hat at all times and especially when in prayer. There is nothing to stop any woman from instructing others . What women seek today is power and authority and Influence. That is a different matter. The question now hangs in the air . Is it good or bad that the man is the head of the household or is ir evil . Is it right that a man have authority over the wife or is it wicked?.
Alec
Hi Joel,
Maybe you can help me understand too! I don't feel like I am Rose's head. Nor do I stand between her and God. I feel we stand completely equally before God and each other. I understand that male dominance is in the Bible and I know that it is upheld in traditional Christian teachings, but I don't think it is correct. I think it represents a backward cultural tradition from 2000 years ago. I don't think such traditions are the part of the Bible that we should understand as revealing eternal truth.
I look forward to learning from you on this.
Richard
There are two views or perspectives when looking at.....male and female.
One view sees no distinction.......in Christ.....there is neither Jew, nor Greek......slave or free.......male (arrhen) or female (thelus).......all are one in Him...Gal. 3:28.
But, from the other view, the woman is the wife (gune)......and the man is the husband (aner)......this speaks of order, God is head, then Christ, then man as husband, and woman as wife.....I Co 11:11.
Joel
gregoryfl
08-03-2010, 09:15 AM
Ok then, let me ask another question. When scripture speaks of man as the head of the woman, and Christ as the head of the man, and God as the head of Christ, what exactly does it mean to be "head"?
Ron
Now that IS enlightening. I was convinced that You,Richard ,accepted the bible as the only standard, and now you back away from it when it doesn't suit your palate. Paul taught that the man was to be the head of the houshold To illustrate his point , He drew on the obvious custom of wearing headgear to show authority. Men have always worn headwear to show their power. The zulu indunas wore a head ring The american chiefs wore the head dress of feathers . Kings wear crowns. Army officers wear a cap with scrambled egg all over. When a man formally removes his hat it is a symbol of lowering his dignity. When we were children everyone wore a hat. When a funeral passed a man would always take his hat off. When a man approached a lady he would lift his hat as a token of deference. As the years passed the cutom wore a bit thin . A man would touch the tip of his hat with his finger. I believe that that is where the western millitary salute originated . Now, down to the nitty gritty .A man is the sole earner in the house and the wife is a spendthrift or even a waster. Do I have authority over her to direct where and how the money is to be spent ?. It is pointless to say that it should be by mutual agreement. People should live in harmony. Couples should agree whether to have children or none. " Should " has no value here. We are talking practicalities here. We are also looking at the plain text. Paul was suggesting a shocking practice when he said that a man should pray with his head uncovered. The doctrine of the pharasee demanded that a man wear a hat at all times and especially when in prayer. There is nothing to stop any woman from instructing others . What women seek today is power and authority and Influence. That is a different matter. The question now hangs in the air . Is it good or bad that the man is the head of the household or is ir evil . Is it right that a man have authority over the wife or is it wicked?.
Alec
Hello Alec,
I might have expected as much from your generation...:p My father who was of your generation claimed total authority as the "head of house" using Biblical precedent though he was not a christian at the time. He would not allow my mother to work outside the home and kept an iron hand on the money. He could be generally described as an abusive man, going so far as to expect his children to support him. I as a woman have supported myself since the age of 15, yet my father still thought he was the sole decision maker and authority even after I turned 18. Needless to say my life started out with a bad impression of men dominating women.
Paul was a man steeped in the customs and traditions of his day and it is obvious that those customs of the male being dominate over the female carried over into his writings and his ministry. If one is going to follow every letter of the Bible why don't people still have slaves and think of them as lesser humans? The Bible teaches that the Jews had slaves....look at the slaves and concubines (sex slaves) of King Solomon! Are those practices still OK? It is obvious we must use our discernment when interpreting the Bible.
There is neither male nor female in Christ. What does that mean if not that both are of equal standing before God being made in His image, both are the temples of the Holy Spirit, hence receiving direct communication from God. God gave both male and female equally intellectual minds to understand the eternal truth that is being set forth in the Bible, yet people continually get caught up in all the customs of man which only obscures that which Christ taught "love your neighbor as yourself" and in that resides all the law and the prophets . No more need be said.
Rose
Wow! Rose of Yakima,
this is very personal to you.......
and obviously........important to your involvement in the message of our faith.
Can I assist you in realizing the role of the woman in the ministry of the gospel through Adam, your husband Richard, your link to God and His Christ through him, your head?
Joel
Hi Joel,
You have not really addressed the question of "Freedom from the Curse" and what no distinction between male and female means. If male and female are made in the image of God, and stand spiritually equal before God there can be no difference in their relationship with Christ, hence the condition of male domination that was a result of the fall is what we are freed from.
I am shocked Joel :eek: I cannot believe that you actually think that my link to God and Christ is through Richard.
Rose
Richard Amiel McGough
08-03-2010, 11:50 AM
Can I assist you in realizing the role of the woman in the ministry of the gospel through Adam, your husband Richard, your link to God and His Christ through him, your head?
Joel
Hey there Joel,
Are you also saying that Rose should never pray to God or Christ, but only bring her requests to me??? :dizzy: I find your statement quite confusing.
And who would be Rose's "link to God" if I died?
All the best,
Richard
Richard Amiel McGough
08-03-2010, 12:24 PM
Now that IS enlightening. I was convinced that You,Richard ,accepted the bible as the only standard, and now you back away from it when it doesn't suit your palate.
Hey there Alec,
I'm not "backing away" from the Bible! I'm just telling you what I believe is actually true. The Bible is full of ancient cultural traditions that we no longer accept. People have used the Bible to justify the godless abomination of slavery. Others use it to justify the oppression of woman. I think these things need to be discussed, not blindly accepted.
Paul taught that the man was to be the head of the houshold To illustrate his point , He drew on the obvious custom of wearing headgear to show authority. Men have always worn headwear to show their power. The zulu indunas wore a head ring The american chiefs wore the head dress of feathers . Kings wear crowns. Army officers wear a cap with scrambled egg all over. When a man formally removes his hat it is a symbol of lowering his dignity. When we were children everyone wore a hat. When a funeral passed a man would always take his hat off. When a man approached a lady he would lift his hat as a token of deference. As the years passed the cutom wore a bit thin . A man would touch the tip of his hat with his finger. I believe that that is where the western millitary salute originated .
That's all good. It's the same idea of "casting our crowns" on the ground when in the presence of Christ (Rev 4:10). It communicates the eternal truth that we should be humble before God. It does not teach that "kings should wear crowns!" It merely uses the fact that kings have worn crowns to teach a truth.
Now, down to the nitty gritty .A man is the sole earner in the house and the wife is a spendthrift or even a waster. Do I have authority over her to direct where and how the money is to be spent ?. It is pointless to say that it should be by mutual agreement.
Men are not the "sole earners" in most house. And this is not just a modern fact. Even Proverbs shows the man hanging around reading with his buddies all day while the woman does all the economic work! It is the woman who PROVIDES FOOD FOR HER HOUSEHOLD!
Proverbs 31:10 Who can find a virtuous wife? For her worth is far above rubies [because she makes her husband rich!]. 11 The heart of her husband safely trusts her; So he will have no lack of gain [good woman makes lots of $$$]. 12 She does him good and not evil All the days of her life. 13 She seeks wool and flax, And willingly works with her hands. 14 She is like the merchant ships, She brings her food from afar. 15 She also rises while it is yet night, And provides food for her household, And a portion for her maidservants. 16 She considers a field and buys it; From her profits she plants a vineyard. 17 She girds herself with strength, And strengthens her arms. 18 She perceives that her merchandise is good, And her lamp does not go out by night.
God's Word says the WOMAN is the primary provider for the household. The man hangs out all day by the gates reading the Torah.
Of course, we also have the apparently contradictory testimony from 1 Timothy:
1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
I guess Paul meant that any man who does not direct his wife to provide for his own is worse than an infidel.
People should live in harmony. Couples should agree whether to have children or none. " Should " has no value here. We are talking practicalities here. We are also looking at the plain text. Paul was suggesting a shocking practice when he said that a man should pray with his head uncovered. The doctrine of the pharasee demanded that a man wear a hat at all times and especially when in prayer. There is nothing to stop any woman from instructing others . What women seek today is power and authority and Influence. That is a different matter. The question now hangs in the air . Is it good or bad that the man is the head of the household or is ir evil . Is it right that a man have authority over the wife or is it wicked?.
Alec
Please cite the source that says "The doctrine of the pharasee demanded that a man wear a hat at all times and especially when in prayer."
I need to do more research, but I would guess that Paul's emphasis on short hair came from the fact that he was a ROMAN following ROMAN customs. Elizabeth Bartman notes in her article (http://www.jstor.org/pss/507324) in the the American Journal of Archeology that "the association with barbarians was why Roman men kept their hair cut short." This also explains Paul's very strange comment that "nature" teaches us that long hair on a man is a "shame" for men, but a "glory" for woman. It's all CUSTOM! It has nothing to do with "nature."
Great chatting,
Richard
Ok then, let me ask another question. When scripture speaks of man as the head of the woman, and Christ as the head of the man, and God as the head of Christ, what exactly does it mean to be "head"?
Ron
Hi Ron,
Christ kept the whole law so he could be the perfect sacrificial Lamb, we who have received that gift are now under Christ who took the burden of the Law. What I see in the teaching of male headship over female is putting the yoke of bondage to the rule of the male upon the female, thus robbing her of freedom through Christ.
I really feel that Paul's whole teaching on headship arose from the customs and traditions of the age he lived in; he was speaking to his contemporaries about issues of their day. I find nowhere in the words of Jesus anything about men being the spiritual head of women. The Holy Spirit was Mary's link to God concerning the Babe she carried in her womb, not Joseph.
We who are seekers of the truth must look beyond mere words to the intent of the whole picture, otherwise we will remain bogged down in the mire of minutia, and miss the ageless Truth contained in the Bible.
Rose
As is true of many topics we discuss here, one statement can push buttons and the response is a surprise.......especially when discussing roles.
I have different roles. In one role, I am to learn to be a leader. In another, I am to learn to a follower.
In the leader role, I learn to lead by example........the example of Christ.
In the follower role, l learn to follow the right example.....the example of Christ.
The most challenging is the role of husband.......where I am directed to love my wife as Christ loves the church, and gave Himself for her.
That specific directive was not given to my wife concerning me. Her role is different. She is not directed to love me as Christ loved the church, and gave Himself for "him". It doesn't say that.
She is to respect me, and seek the Lord's guidance through me.
I seek His wisdom through her.
I never said that Rose must seek God through Richard.....and not on her own. But,......whatever wisdom she is given is not to be construed as the directive to the family without Richard's agreement.
God's questions to Adam and Eve are clarifying.
To Adam.....He asked....."Where are you?". He was hiding behind trees.
To the woman....He asked......"What have you done?". She was the initiator of acts of eating the fruit that had been withheld.
Joel
As is true of many topics we discuss here, one statement can push buttons and the response is a surprise.......especially when discussing roles.
I have different roles. In one role, I am to learn to be a leader. In another, I am to learn to a follower.
In the leader role, I learn to lead by example........the example of Christ.
In the follower role, l learn to follow the right example.....the example of Christ.
The most challenging is the role of husband.......where I am directed to love my wife as Christ loves the church, and gave Himself for her.
That specific directive was not given to my wife concerning me. Her role is different. She is not directed to love me as Christ loved the church, and gave Himself for "him". It doesn't say that.
She is to respect me, and seek the Lord's guidance through me.
I seek His wisdom through her.
I never said that Rose must seek God through Richard.....and not on her own. But,......whatever wisdom she is given is not to be construed as the directive to the family without Richard's agreement.
God's questions to Adam and Eve are clarifying.
To Adam.....He asked....."Where are you?". He was hiding behind trees.
To the woman....He asked......"What have you done?". She was the initiator of acts of eating the fruit that had been withheld.
Joel
You are returning to the ways of Adam and Eve after the fall....we have been freed from the bondage of that curse due to their transgression. In the Garden before the fall there is no hint of male headship and woman being in submission, both are spoken of in terms of "one flesh". It is only after the fall that the male assumes the role of dominating because he has the strength to do so. You can be assured if women were of equal strength to men the order of things would be entirely different. Men love to grab onto the verses in the Epistles concerning headship while ignoring entirely parts of the Bible that speak of woman's authority....like Deborah who was judge over all of Israel...:winking0071:
As Richard brought out in a previous post, the virtuous woman of Proverbs is the one who watches over her household with wisdom, and provides the food and money to run the house, while her husband discusses the Torah with the boys in the Temple.
Prov.31:26-27 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness. She watches over the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
It's all in the perspective which one approaches the Bible with, and what they are willing to see.
Rose
gregoryfl
08-03-2010, 04:32 PM
Hi Ron,
Christ kept the whole law so he could be the perfect sacrificial Lamb, we who have received that gift are now under Christ who took the burden of the Law. What I see in the teaching of male headship over female is putting the yoke of bondage to the rule of the male upon the female, thus robbing her of freedom through Christ.
I really feel that Paul's whole teaching on headship arose from the customs and traditions of the age he lived in; he was speaking to his contemporaries about issues of their day. I find nowhere in the words of Jesus anything about men being the spiritual head of women. The Holy Spirit was Mary's link to God concerning the Babe she carried in her womb, not Joseph.
We who are seekers of the truth must look beyond mere words to the intent of the whole picture, otherwise we will remain bogged down in the mire of minutia, and miss the ageless Truth contained in the Bible.
RoseRose,
You made mention of headship as something "over" a female. This is the very reason I am asking this question, for I read of nowhere in scripture where headship is written about as being "above" another. I do realize that unfortunately, that is how it has become defined, but I think the scripture describes headship as something totally different. Do you know of any scriptural definition given where it is described as an "over, under" relationship? By the way, I am not seeking to correct you, or change you, but merely to examine the various things I think it is all to easy to take for granted, which is part of the reason for the horrible abuse of this thing called "headship," among other things.
Thank you for opening up your heart concerning this,
Ron
You are returning to the ways of Adam and Eve after the fall....
No, I am not.
I am returning to the "ways of Adam and Eve" before the fall.
Joel
Rose,
You made mention of headship as something "over" a female. This is the very reason I am asking this question, for I read of nowhere in scripture where headship is written about as being "above" another. I do realize that unfortunately, that is how it has become defined, but I think the scripture describes headship as something totally different. Do you know of any scriptural definition given where it is described as an "over, under" relationship? By the way, I am not seeking to correct you, or change you, but merely to examine the various things I think it is all to easy to take for granted, which is part of the reason for the horrible abuse of this thing called "headship," among other things.
Thank you for opening up your heart concerning this,
Ron
Hi Ron,
By the very nature of the term "head" it implies that which is on top, and that which rules the rest of the body. If one part is the head every other part must be under it that is why headship has been taken to mean that which leads or rules over. And of course in conjunction with that there is the submission aspect of it, so together they have been used as a two-edge sword against women.
I appreciate your open-mindedness concerning this issue and would be delighted to explore further your understanding of this matter. I think it is hard for men to truly understand how it makes a woman feel to know they are intellectually equal in every way to a man, yet treated as if they are less.
Rose
No, I am not.
I am returning to the "ways of Adam and Eve" before the fall.
Joel
Then please tell me where in chapter 2 of Genesis is male headship mentioned?
Rose
Richard Amiel McGough
08-03-2010, 05:54 PM
I am returning to the "ways of Adam and Eve" before the fall.
Joel
Hey Joel,
You got me curious. Are you saying that Eve is subordinate to Adam in Gen 2 because she was taken from him, and made for him? And that God intends us to understand this as the pattern for all male-female relationships?
Richard
......where in chapter 2 of Genesis is male headship mentioned?
You speak of "headship" as domination.........subjection that is forced, and is harsh......overbearing......and which cannot be resisted.
I don't look at "headship" from that perspective.
It is from the perspective of who recieved the word from God directly.
If it was Adam, separate from Eve......then Adam "heard" God's instructions directly......and......was to pass them on to Eve.
That is the point of "subjection" in this context...........the one who receives the word.........gives the word.
The one who receives the word.......in the second tier.......is subject to that which the first one heard, and passes on.
It is not a matter of superiority,.........but priority.
Joel
You speak of "headship" as domination.........subjection that is forced, and is harsh......overbearing......and which cannot be resisted.
I don't look at "headship" from that perspective.
It is from the perspective of who recieved the word from God directly.
If it was Adam, separate from Eve......then Adam "heard" God's instructions directly......and......was to pass them on to Eve.
That is the point of "subjection" in this context...........the one who receives the word.........gives the word.
The one who receives the word.......in the second tier.......is subject to that which the first one heard, and passes on.
It is not a matter of superiority,.........but priority.
Joel
If headship is based on who receives the word from God directly, then Mary who received the direct word from God that she would bear His Son would be Josephs head.
Rose
Richard Amiel McGough
08-03-2010, 08:01 PM
You speak of "headship" as domination.........subjection that is forced, and is harsh......overbearing......and which cannot be resisted.
I don't look at "headship" from that perspective.
It is from the perspective of who recieved the word from God directly.
If it was Adam, separate from Eve......then Adam "heard" God's instructions directly......and......was to pass them on to Eve.
That is the point of "subjection" in this context...........the one who receives the word.........gives the word.
The one who receives the word.......in the second tier.......is subject to that which the first one heard, and passes on.
It is not a matter of superiority,.........but priority.
Joel
How does any of this apply to male-female relations today? Women are not dependent to "receive the word" from men! And neither you nor I nor Rose "receive" the Word directly from God.
Where did you get the idea that the GENDER of the one who "heard the word of God" in Genesis would determine who rules over whom for all time?
Richard
Richard,
We are speaking of relationship.....and family.....not individual, one-on-one with God. How is the family unit supposed to function?
In the garden, before the woman was brought forth,
the Lord God and Adam were there.........where the Lord God had placed him.
There was an instructional conversation.....from the Lord God to Adam.
The word of the Lord God spoken to Adam contained a very specific message. No one else heard it, nor was any one else given the instructions.
Did the Lord God have a separate conversation later with the woman to make sure she understood?
There being no record of such a conversation, we must conclude that Adam was responsible to give his mate the elements of the instruction.
This, then, is the basis of the order within the family. The man is to receive the instructions, and, in turn, accurately transmit the instructions to his mate. She, in turn, is to heed the words and assist him in dressing and keeping the garden. They are to work as a team.
The same problem within the family arises when the man fails to hear the words of the Lord God, and does not come under the instructional protection of the words, and when the Lord God pays a visit, the man is hiding behind a tree. This is what is wrong with families.........where are the men?
and, then,.........when the enemy arrives......the woman engages in a conversation with the one who has come to steal, kill and destroy.
Both the man, and the woman, are at fault; the man because he didn't speak up, .......and, the woman because she didn't remain silent.
And thus,........curses came from the Lord God affecting their service to Him, and the bearing of fruit, and the family pays a heavy price, and the enemy enjoys a temporary victory when it falls apart.
Divorce abounds. Many families have one "head"......and that being the mother. It is a disgrace and a reproach to God.
Joel
Richard,
We are speaking of relationship.....and family.....not individual, one-on-one with God. How is the family unit supposed to function?
In the garden, before the woman was brought forth,
the Lord God and Adam were there.........where the Lord God had placed him.
There was an instructional conversation.....from the Lord God to Adam.
The word of the Lord God spoken to Adam contained a very specific message. No one else heard it, nor was any one else given the instructions.
Did the Lord God have a separate conversation later with the woman to make sure she understood?
There being no record of such a conversation, we must conclude that Adam was responsible to give his mate the elements of the instruction.
This, then, is the basis of the order within the family. The man is to receive the instructions, and, in turn, accurately transmit the instructions to his mate. She, in turn, is to heed the words and assist him in dressing and keeping the garden. They are to work as a team.
The same problem within the family arises when the man fails to hear the words of the Lord God, and does not come under the instructional protection of the words, and when the Lord God pays a visit, the man is hiding behind a tree. This is what is wrong with families.........where are the men?
and, then,.........when the enemy arrives......the woman engages in a conversation with the one who has come to steal, kill and destroy.
Both the man, and the woman, are at fault; the man because he didn't speak up, .......and, the woman because she didn't remain silent.
And thus,........curses came from the Lord God affecting their service to Him, and the bearing of fruit, and the family pays a heavy price, and the enemy enjoys a temporary victory when it falls apart.
Divorce abounds. Many families have one "head"......and that being the mother. It is a disgrace and a reproach to God.
Joel
Hi Joel,
I would just like to point out a few flaws I see in you argument for direct communication from God coming through the male.
In the metaphor of the Garden experience of Adam and Eve it begins with Adam who is both the male and female human made in the image of God. When God speaks to Adam there is no choice of who to speak to made because Adam is the only human there.
Chapter 2 of Genesis gives us no information on conversations between Adam and Eve, but Chapter 3 tells us in Eve's conversation with the Serpent that "God has said", so we do not know if Eve was a participant in that conversation with God or if she heard it from Adam.
Gen.3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Further down in chapter 3 we read where God directly talks to Eve.
Gen.3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
It appears to me you have done quite allot of speculation concerning what we should conclude about man in the family setting being the one who God speaks directly to.
God did not create woman with an equal ability to understand and speak for her to remain silent....Paul's infamous statement concerning woman's silence in church was drawn from a particular situation at a time in history when the customs of men kept women in subjection, and it truly is a sad thing to see when men like you choose to have such a narrow-minded view of what is being said.
Rose
The Homemommy
08-04-2010, 12:18 PM
Richard,
We are speaking of relationship.....and family.....not individual, one-on-one with God. How is the family unit supposed to function?
In the garden, before the woman was brought forth,
the Lord God and Adam were there.........where the Lord God had placed him.
There was an instructional conversation.....from the Lord God to Adam.
The word of the Lord God spoken to Adam contained a very specific message. No one else heard it, nor was any one else given the instructions.
Did the Lord God have a separate conversation later with the woman to make sure she understood?
There being no record of such a conversation, we must conclude that Adam was responsible to give his mate the elements of the instruction.
This, then, is the basis of the order within the family. The man is to receive the instructions, and, in turn, accurately transmit the instructions to his mate. She, in turn, is to heed the words and assist him in dressing and keeping the garden. They are to work as a team.
The same problem within the family arises when the man fails to hear the words of the Lord God, and does not come under the instructional protection of the words, and when the Lord God pays a visit, the man is hiding behind a tree. This is what is wrong with families.........where are the men?
and, then,.........when the enemy arrives......the woman engages in a conversation with the one who has come to steal, kill and destroy.
Both the man, and the woman, are at fault; the man because he didn't speak up, .......and, the woman because she didn't remain silent.
And thus,........curses came from the Lord God affecting their service to Him, and the bearing of fruit, and the family pays a heavy price, and the enemy enjoys a temporary victory when it falls apart.
Divorce abounds. Many families have one "head"......and that being the mother. It is a disgrace and a reproach to God.
Joel
Joel,
How do you feel about a wife witnessing and "preaching" the Bible to her unsaved husband? Is this o.k.?
On the lighter side of all this Adam and Eve talk, Richard coined a new name for me as we were laughing about Eve being made from Adams rib. He said I could be called "the Liberated Rib"....my sister in-law who is out visiting said we could start a singing group called the Liberated Ribs....:hysterical:
Rose - the Liberated Rib
The Rose of Yakima is also the "Liberated Rib".........:yo:
If I know anything, my dear sweet friend, even though we have never met face to face.......I appreciate who you are.........as a special gift from God......the feisty administrator has a feisty mate.....Bravo!
Zeal is so invigorating.....and you have a zeal for His truth.
Thank you for being you.......you are blessed....and a blessing.
And you know how much I appreciate the BibleWheel.......the admin man, and the admin's woman.
Joel
The Rose of Yakima is also the "Liberated Rib".........:yo:
If I know anything, my dear sweet friend, even though we have never met face to face.......I appreciate who you are.........as a special gift from God......the feisty administrator has a feisty mate.....Bravo!
Zeal is so invigorating.....and you have a zeal for His truth.
Thank you for being you.......you are blessed....and a blessing.
And you know how much I appreciate the BibleWheel.......the admin man, and the admin's woman.
Joel
Thank you Joel...:signthankspin:....:hug:
Rose - the Liberated Rib
That hug:hug: was special......thanks.
Joel
Clifford
08-08-2010, 08:07 PM
Gal. 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:….28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: forye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Rev.22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
If Christ has redeemed us from the curse that was imposed upon Adam and Eve after the fall when they were expelled from the Garden, why is it that certain apostles like Paul chose to place upon women a continuation of that curse when they themselves preach freedom? Just as many Jews chose to remain under the bondage of the law instead of choosing freedom in Christ, so it seems some of those who chose freedom from that bondage still impose upon women rules of their own making!
All of the often quoted verses of the New Testament that men love to dominate women with are written from the hands of those who are speaking from freedom they themselves have in Christ, yet seemingly find no fault in placing bondage on the lives of women already burdened under the rule of men. It causes me to wonder….did Paul not read his own words that there is neither male nor female in Christ, and that all are redeemed from the curse? :confused: Why fall again under the yoke of bondage that Christ has freed us from? And it has truly been a yoke of bondage for many women....:eek:
Gal. 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Rose
Hi Rose,
[/INDENT]If Christ has redeemed us from the curse that was imposed upon Adam and Eve after the fall when they were expelled from the Garden, why is it that certain apostles like Paul chose to place upon women a continuation of that curse when they themselves preach freedom? Just as many Jews chose to remain under the bondage of the law instead of choosing freedom in Christ, so it seems some of those who chose freedom from that bondage still impose upon women rules of their own making!
The curse of the Law and the curse of the Fall are two separate curses. You seem to be lumping them together. Gal 3:13 says Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, not the curse of the Fall. All the curses of the Fall are still upon us today, even Christians. Christian women still experience pain during childbirth. Christian men still work the ground by the sweat of their brow and the ground still brings forth weeds, part of the curse of the Fall.
The curse of the Law is our trying to be justified before God by trying to keep the Law. Even if we kept 99.99 percent of the law that would still not be enough, that is the curse of the Law, and that is what Christ has redeemed us from.
When Paul speaks about the authority structure, especially in 1Tim he is appealing to God's original order in creation, not to the culture he was living in.
Clifford
Hi Rose,
The curse of the Law and the curse of the Fall are two separate curses. You seem to be lumping them together. Gal 3:13 says Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, not the curse of the Fall. All the curses of the Fall are still upon us today, even Christians. Christian women still experience pain during childbirth. Christian men still work the ground by the sweat of their brow and the ground still brings forth weeds, part of the curse of the Fall.
The curse of the Law is our trying to be justified before God by trying to keep the Law. Even if we kept 99.99 percent of the law that would still not be enough, that is the curse of the Law, and that is what Christ has redeemed us from.
When Paul speaks about the authority structure, especially in 1Tim he is appealing to God's original order in creation, not to the culture he was living in.
Clifford
Hi Clifford,
Nice to see you back on the Forum...:yo:
I would not say there are two separate curses, but rather because of the fall and its curse that the Law was imposed upon man so the whole thing is lumped together. In Revelation we read that when the Tree of Life is restored to man and he drinks of the Living water then there is no more curse. We know that we now have eternal life through Christ (Tree of Life) when we drink of His Living Waters, freeing us from the curse of the fall.
Rev.22:1-3 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rose
Clifford
08-08-2010, 09:12 PM
Hi Clifford,
Nice to see you back on the Forum...:yo:
I would not say there are two separate curses, but rather because of the fall and its curse that the Law was imposed upon man so the whole thing is lumped together. In Revelation we read that when the Tree of Life is restored to man and he drinks of the Living water then there is no more curse. We know that we now have eternal life through Christ (Tree of Life) when we drink of His Living Waters, freeing us from the curse of the fall.
Rev.22:1-3 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rose
Hi Rose,
Nice to be back. :)
We know that we now have eternal life through Christ (Tree of Life) when we drink of His Living Waters, freeing us from the curse of the fall
If that is the case why are the curses of the Fall still upon us today, even believers? For example, as I mentioned in my previous post, women still experience pain during childbirth, people still bring forth from the ground by the sweat of their brow. So the curse that is mentioned in Revelation as being taken away must be the curse of the Law it seems to me.
Clifford
Hi Rose,
Nice to be back. :)
If that is the case why are the curses of the Fall still upon us today, even believers? For example, as I mentioned in my previous post, women still experience pain during childbirth, people still bring forth from the ground by the sweat of their brow. So the curse that is mentioned in Revelation as being taken away must be the curse of the Law it seems to me.
Clifford
Hi Clifford,
There are many reasons the examples you used are not to be taken as evidence that the curse is still upon mankind. Pain in childbirth and toiling upon the earth to bring forth food (which women also experience) will continue in one degree or another as long as man lives on earth. The whole point of being kicked out of the Garden where life was carefree and Eve bore no children is because of the Tree of Life. If they remained in the Garden an ate of the Tree of Life they would live forever....but,that is exactly what happens now to those who believe in Christ (the Tree of Life)....they partake in eternal life while they are still toiling the ground on this earth, and experiencing pain in childbirth.
When Paul speaks about the authority structure, especially in 1Tim he is appealing to God's original order in creation, not to the culture he was living in.
Clifford There is no original order of creation spoken of in Genesis. Woman was made from the rib of man and they became one flesh in marriage. One flesh does not imply an order.
Paul's statement in 1Tim. is way too general to be taken as "rule from God". Paul uses the word Church....well, what exactly does he mean by Church? Most of the 1st century groups of people that gathered in homes were called Churches....so, does that mean women were not even suppose to speak in their own homes? I think not! As I said before, Paul was addressing a specific situation brought up by Timothy that had to do with the customs and traditions of the time. If God can place a women to head Israel as a judge I don't think speaking in Church would be a big issue with Him....:winking0071:
Rose
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