Hearing God and entertainment

[Silence]

I have been meaning for some time to post a paper I wrote a few years ago after I first began to find out about some of the negative biblical testimony on the topic of music. That study soon expanded to include visual entertainment. One reason I have decided to do this now was Gilgal's post on Saul's courageous beginnings as a leader, and contrasting that with the complacent attitude of most of the church when the truth is attacked today. Another reason is because in the job I have now cleaning tables at a mall food court, there are T.V. screens all over the place. I watch teens and adults alike staring glassy-eyed at the screens, mindlessly soaking up the sound of their favorite "idols" and of course looking at the clothes, hair-do's, and make-up that go along with them (all of which the mall can provide a very similar version of, for a price) They look like zombies and it's so sad. I do not like to make myself a lightning rod for controversy, but we are headed for terrible times if people continue to let themselves be brainwashed like they have been. The church has been complicit in this problem and has tried to "sanctify" the methods of the world and use them "for God". At least that is the conclusion I have come to.

I am not in a position to answer a lot of questions that are sure to arise in response to the attachment to this post. I have not made the wisest choices in my working life, so now I am working minimum wage while looking for another job, which doesn't leave me a lot of free time or energy. But I will try to respond to as many questions as I can. I also realize that a lot of my conclusions are based on inferences, and that other people, when looking at the same facts may draw different conclusions. At the very least, you will learn the meanings of a lot of biblical words for people, places, events, and objects that are associated with music in the original languages. Things that virtually never get mentioned in churches today. I pray that reading it will not prove to be a waste of your time.


Yours in Christ,
Chris

[Silence]

I am not very good with computers and should have checked the attachment before attaching it. I can't get Adobe to allow the import of a new file to pdf. They seem to have changed things since the last time I used the program. I tried using a Microsoft Works word document but that produces a file type that can't be uploaded here. I'm not sure what to do now.

I just put the original file into a txt format and then into a zip folder so it would fit for an upload. It is harder to read than the original, but I hope maybe those who want to read it can maybe find a way to re-format it on their end to make it easier. Sorry about the lack of expertise.

[gregoryfl]

Hey Chris,

I remember you and I discussed very briefly this aspect of music from the scriptural point of view, along with some information on a very extensive website we both were looking at. Thanks for sharing this. I will be looking over it a few times as I believe there is much to be gleaned from knowing the effects of music on the human physiology.

Ron

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I have been meaning for some time to post a paper I wrote a few years ago after I first began to find out about some of the negative biblical testimony on the topic of music. That study soon expanded to include visual entertainment. One reason I have decided to do this now was Gilgal's post on Saul's courageous beginnings as a leader, and contrasting that with the complacent attitude of most of the church when the truth is attacked today. Another reason is because in the job I have now cleaning tables at a mall food court, there are T.V. screens all over the place. I watch teens and adults alike staring glassy-eyed at the screens, mindlessly soaking up the sound of their favorite "idols" and of course looking at the clothes, hair-do's, and make-up that go along with them (all of which the mall can provide a very similar version of, for a price) They look like zombies and it's so sad. I do not like to make myself a lightning rod for controversy, but we are headed for terrible times if people continue to let themselves be brainwashed like they have been. The church has been complicit in this problem and has tried to "sanctify" the methods of the world and use them "for God". At least that is the conclusion I have come to.

I am not in a position to answer a lot of questions that are sure to arise in response to the attachment to this post. I have not made the wisest choices in my working life, so now I am working minimum wage while looking for another job, which doesn't leave me a lot of free time or energy. But I will try to respond to as many questions as I can. I also realize that a lot of my conclusions are based on inferences, and that other people, when looking at the same facts may draw different conclusions. At the very least, you will learn the meanings of a lot of biblical words for people, places, events, and objects that are associated with music in the original languages. Things that virtually never get mentioned in churches today. I pray that reading it will not prove to be a waste of your time.


Yours in Christ,
Chris
Hi Chris,

It is a long article and the format is difficult, but I'll see if I can find time to read it. I understand your experience with the "zombies" in the shopping mall could make you think that the problem is music itself, but my experience with music makes me think that it is one of the primary gifts from God. It can be used for good or for evil like anything else - e.g. a knife.

I'll write more after reading more.

All the best,

Richard

[alec cotton]

what might be in there . Much of that which passes for 'modern' music ( I call it murder music)Stems from the time when groups of musicians would meet after work. I am given to understand that they would often play their instruments at random. Obviously that was a break from the restraints and disciplines normally imposed. The clatter which they produced had appeal to the unrestrained and the unruly . It was called jazz. Since then it has had various names and developed in odd directions. From a child I hated it. Of course not all people have the sane taste in music. One famous writer was heard to remark ; If there is music in hell it will be the bagpipes. Another was eating in a restaurant with a small orchestra playing. The waiter approached his table and asked , 'what would you like the band to play next'. He replied ' Dominoes'Music can soothe, excite stimulate or calm. Much contemporary music is loud and aggressive and has great appeal to the rebellious and the thug. I am struggling to find words to express my feelings . I could say that music is made in heaven or that it is a gift from God ,but such words are totally inadequate. In his book,'Number in scripture',Bullinger writes. Experiments have long been completed which fix the number of vibrations for each musical note; by which of course we may easily calculate the difference between the number of vibration between each note.
These were finally settled in Stuttgart in 1834. The following is the scale of do showing the number of vibrations per second under each note and differences between them.

C D E F G A B C

Do RE Mi Fa Sol La Si Do
264 (33) 297 (33) 330 (22) 352(44) 396 (44) 440 (55) 495 (33) 528

(24x11) (27x11 ) (39x11) (32x11) (36x11) (40x11) (45x11) (48x11)

On examining the above it will be seen that the number eleven is stamped on music;and we may say seven also, for there are seven notes on the scale ( the eighth being a repetition of the first.

I don't know much about that but I do like to hear a pleasant tune and a song well written.
Alec

[alec cotton]

If you think that it is worth it ,Richard ; I would like this muddle sorted out . It wasn't lke this when it left here . Gratis
Alec

[Silence]

Hello Everyone,
There are so many facets to the topic of music that can lead in so many directions, sometimes it is hard to know where to start and where to go next. That is one reason the paper I put together is so long. Ron, you are interested in the physiological aspects, there is a little bit of that in my paper. Alec, you are right about the violent, evil spirit behind a lot of modern music. Somewhere I read a quote by a famous musician (I think it was Little Richard but I would have to search it out again) who told of a time when someone he knew was playing a rock and roll recording and a witch doctor from Africa told him that the background beat and tone of the song would be recognized by natives over in Africa immediately as a familiar voodoo song. So it is obvious that music can be used for obviously evil purposes. Which brings me to Richard's point of view, which is the most commonly held opinion on music, that it is neutral and can be used for good or evil. If I had to boil my paper down to one pivotal question for discussion, I guess it would be this - Given the fact that God has put so much detailed design into His Word, taking care to put repeating patterns of themes and keywords in just the right books, even to the point where the books having an extraordinary amount of similar content can be lined up in groups of three on spokes, - If God took that amount of care in designing the bible, can anyone explain to me why He would choose to designate musical instruments in His Word with terms that are virtually all vile, violent, vain or empty? And why the "first mention" of a musician in scripture associates musical instruments with Cain's descendants, and does so with a word (taw-fas) that is never used in scripture in a good sense? Ever since I was a young Christian, I have heard bible teachers talk about how important the "first mention principle" is in determining how a subject should be viewed in the rest of scripture. Was God not as careful in designing the parts of His Word having musical associations as He was when dealing with other subjects?

I'm hoping that the length and "wordiness" of my paper doesn't prevent people from reading it through. I was blessed in my early days as a Christian to have people around me who could show me how much care God has taken in designing the bible so that the same message could be found in several different parts of scripture, both new testament and old. And how He is careful in the words He uses. But many Christians don't want to take the time to look at specific words and how they are used differently at different times or in different situations. They like to lump similar groups of words together and treat them like they are interchangeable. That is one reason I went at the topic of music from so many angles in my paper. Maybe it was a bit of overkill, and like I said, I hope you all will be patient, read it through, and let me know what you think.

[alec cotton]

I read the letter by Silence but found the conclusion a bit vague. Music can be good or evil ;In that sense it is no different than words. Music is reccomended in the Bible . The psalms were composed to be sung. You cannot have a song without music. When a person sings ,then that one is using the human voice as a musical instrument.Music can be used to inspire loyalty , love , Hate , agression and other emotions. It is not neutral. Some churches mistakenly omit any musical instrument in their worship. I beleive that that is a grave error. The Salvation army would never have existed without music. The Moody institute would never have got off the ground without it. What do you think?
Alec

[Silence]

Hello Alec,
Below are my responses to your statements. I still don't know how to quote separate parts of a post in one reply, so I will put my responses in italics.




Music is reccomended in the Bible . The psalms were composed to be sung. You cannot have a song without music.

We have no idea how the songs were sung. And what kind of music should accompany the psalms? We have no idea what the accompanying music was, or even what the instruments that accompanied the psalms looked like or sounded like. The words of the psalms were preserved by the Lord, the music wasn't. And even if it had been, it was part of an "external" worship system that was destined to pass away. The early church fathers recognized that music is not spiritual, it affects the body and soulish realms. God is to be worshipped in spirit and truth. Also, I don't know that it is a good idea to improvise and just sing and play whatever suits our tastes. That opens the door to the possibility of one church split after another over what kind of music is going to be played.

When a person sings ,then that one is using the human voice as a musical instrument.

Using the human voice to create "music" is no different than using instruments. If you sing loudly enough, and get enough overlapping tones from multiple voices or one person with a "rich" voice in the right acoustic environment, it causes the body of the person singing and of their listeners to produce the same endorphines that instrumental music does. The early church fathers denounced the use of singing that was "moving" because they knew it was moving the soul and not the spirit. Many of them spoke of the old testament references to musical instruments as having to do with the heart of man "sounding music forth to God". Paul put the place of music in the heart and to make it even more clear in Ephesians 5:19 he also used a word in relation to the "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" that is not used to denote singing, but speaking, that being lal-eh-oh. The word for singing is ay-doh. It is impossible to lal-eh-ho (speak) to ourselves and at the same time singing and making melody externally. I don't know Greek, but Ephesians 5:19 and Collosians 3:16 also both mention singing "in" ('en' in Greek) your hearts to the Lord. If the singing was to be externalized it seems the word 'ek' (from) would have been used.

Music can be used to inspire loyalty , love , Hate , agression and other emotions.

The ability of music to move the soul of man is one reason it is dangerous to get it near anything that is considered "spiritual". It is easy to be deceived by music's ability to move people. If the Holy Spirit requires external means like music to move people, you would think that the New Testament would be full of teaching on the proper way to do this. On the contrary, there are only two verses that speak about psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, and of these three, the only one that can have anything to do with musical accompaniment is "psalms", and in the Greek of the New Testament, if a psalmos was to be accompanied by "psalloing" an instrument, the instrument is always named. The only instrument named in this passage is the human heart.

The Salvation army would never have existed without music. The Moody institute would never have got off the ground without it. What do you think?

I realize that these groups have done a lot of good things, but that doesn't mean everything they did was the best way. Music is not necessary for God to work, the church was born in the upper room and there is no mention of music there or in the following accounts of when the church was growing by leaps and bounds. It seems that people take the silence of the new testament as permission to do what they like and refuse to talk about the negative associations to music that are found in scripture.

[HaShaliach]

I downloaded your paper and look forward to reading it.

I'm amazed that one cannot go to a restaurant without having to see/hear a huge TV blasting dribble. I can't stand it!
More than one time I've asked that the music/TV be turned down or off, I just thought I was getting old! LOL But the music grates on my spirit, I actually feel bad on the inside. Agitated at first, then almost depressed.

In college I read a book called the "psychology of music" It was very interesting. Perhaps this paper has some similar ideas?

[Silence]

Hello HaShaliach,
Everybody knows what you are talking about with the T.V. screens staring you in the face everywhere you go. The people running the media have spent years and years perfecting their mind manipulating techniques. It is very subtle and most people are not willing to admit that they can be manipulated without their knowledge that it is happening. I can remember when I was a kid, the time that a scene would stay on the screen was way longer than it is now. As the novelty of T.V. wore off and the "dumbing down" effect of staring at visual images began to shorten people's attention span, show producers realized that their audiences weren't paying as much attention to their drivel, and this was not good because that meant they weren't paying attention to the commercials either. Their problem was solved when they discovered that all creatures have what is called a "visual orienting response". Any movement in the field of view causes the eyes to re-focus on the area of movement. So they began shortening the length of time that the camera held a scene, and began switching from one shot to another in less time.

Same thing has been done with sound. There have been tons of experiments done to figure out what effects can be achieved with different types of sound under different conditions. And it is not just confined to music, although that is the biggest part of it. I read the other day on the internet that a lot of lawyers and politicians are trained hypnotists. I have no problem believing that. They can slowly shift people's perceptions to a different point of view, not by the facts they present, but by changing the tone and pace of their words as they present those facts they can manipulate what you are more likely to remember as being true and important.

A "clear head" is not something that we can take for granted, as we are told to "Guard our hearts and minds in Christ Jesus". Even the ancients pagans knew that our ability to filter out garbage can only handle so much input, and they did not have the means in those days for the kind of widespread assaults on people's minds that are available today.

[Rose]

Hi Silence

Jumping in to give my 2 cents worth, I say that music in and of itself is neither good nor bad, but rather an expression of ones deepest feelings. It is a pure mode used to convey on a primal level that which touches our senses in a way words alone cannot do.

It is not the music itself that we should focus on, but its creator....God gave us music to be able to express things that words alone cannot.

Rose

[Silence]

Hi Silence

Jumping in to give my 2 cents worth, I say that music in and of itself is neither good nor bad, but rather an expression of ones deepest feelings. It is a pure mode used to convey on a primal level that which touches our senses in a way words alone cannot do.

It is not the music itself that we should focus on, but its creator....God gave us music to be able to express things that words alone cannot.

Rose

Hello Rose,
I understand your viewpoint, as I used to think highly of music also. I would like to address the parts of your post in bold first and then pose a simple question.

I believe the words "pure mode" and "Creator" once held true for music. But as Tertullian said in his 'De Spectaculis', if we want to say we know Him by whom all things were created, it also behooves us to know him by whom they were subverted. Like everything else in this creation, music, and our ability to handle it properly has been affected by sin.

You are right about music's ability to affect our senses. Our sense of sound affects the largest number of other nerve networks and body systems than any of the senses, and does so more strongly. At the same time, the part of our brain that processes sound is tiny and easily overloaded by even 'simple' music. Scientists have identified the main compound responsible for the feelings associated with listening to music. It's an endorphine that is nearly indistinguishable from morphine.

As for God giving music to us, there are only two places in scripture I have been able to find where it says God gives music to men. One is a quote from Elihu in Job 35:10, where it says "But no one says 'where is God my Maker who gives songs in the night...' ".The word for songs here does imply musical accompaniment. But it is the Lord who is the source of these songs. It isn't clear if He is also the one playing them. And it isn't the Lord speaking in this verse, but Elihu. The other reference is in Isaiah 5:1-7 where the Lord sings a song of His vineyard to His well beloved. It wasn't pretty. The first mention of music and mankind in the bible text is Genesis 4:21 that I mentioned in an earlier post. If you go by the chronology that the bible lays out, then chronologically the first to be associated with a musical instrument would be Lucifer.

As for not focusing on music but on it's Creator, I don't believe it is possible to do both. The whole point of music is to change the way we feel, and it affects our perceptions and thinking processes whether we realize it or not. So worshiping God with our mind is ruled out when listening to music. And worshiping Him in spirit is likewise ruled out since music is sensual, not spiritual.

The simple question I have was stated in my post from 7/26. It is below in italics -


If I had to boil my paper down to one pivotal question for discussion, I guess it would be this - Given the fact that God has put so much detailed design into His Word, taking care to put repeating patterns of themes and keywords in just the right books, even to the point where the books having an extraordinary amount of similar content can be lined up in groups of three on spokes, - If God took that amount of care in designing the bible, can anyone explain to me why He would choose to designate musical instruments in His Word with terms that are virtually all vile, violent, vain or empty? And why the "first mention" of a musician in scripture associates musical instruments with Cain's descendants, and does so with a word (taw-fas) that is never used in scripture in a good sense? Ever since I was a young Christian, I have heard bible teachers talk about how important the "first mention principle" is in determining how a subject should be viewed in the rest of scripture. Was God not as careful in designing the parts of His Word having musical associations as He was when dealing with other subjects?

I don't know if you have read the file I attached to the second post in this thread, but there are also a lot of negative musical associations in the bible aside from what is mentioned in the question above. My question still stands - Was God not as careful in designing the parts of His Word having musical associations as He was when dealing with other subjects?

Chris

[Rose]

Hello Rose,
I understand your viewpoint, as I used to think highly of music also. I would like to address the parts of your post in bold first and then pose a simple question.

I believe the words "pure mode" and "Creator" once held true for music. But as Tertullian said in his 'De Spectaculis', if we want to say we know Him by whom all things were created, it also behooves us to know him by whom they were subverted. Like everything else in this creation, music, and our ability to handle it properly has been affected by sin.

You are right about music's ability to affect our senses. Our sense of sound affects the largest number of other nerve networks and body systems than any of the senses, and does so more strongly. At the same time, the part of our brain that processes sound is tiny and easily overloaded by even 'simple' music. Scientists have identified the main compound responsible for the feelings associated with listening to music. It's an endorphine that is nearly indistinguishable from morphine.

As for God giving music to us, there are only two places in scripture I have been able to find where it says God gives music to men. One is a quote from Elihu in Job 35:10, where it says "But no one says 'where is God my Maker who gives songs in the night...' ".The word for songs here does imply musical accompaniment. But it is the Lord who is the source of these songs. It isn't clear if He is also the one playing them. And it isn't the Lord speaking in this verse, but Elihu. The other reference is in Isaiah 5:1-7 where the Lord sings a song of His vineyard to His well beloved. It wasn't pretty. The first mention of music and mankind in the bible text is Genesis 4:21 that I mentioned in an earlier post. If you go by the chronology that the bible lays out, then chronologically the first to be associated with a musical instrument would be Lucifer.

As for not focusing on music but on it's Creator, I don't believe it is possible to do both. The whole point of music is to change the way we feel, and it affects our perceptions and thinking processes whether we realize it or not. So worshiping God with our mind is ruled out when listening to music. And worshiping Him in spirit is likewise ruled out since music is sensual, not spiritual.

The simple question I have was stated in my post from 7/26. It is below in italics -


If I had to boil my paper down to one pivotal question for discussion, I guess it would be this - Given the fact that God has put so much detailed design into His Word, taking care to put repeating patterns of themes and keywords in just the right books, even to the point where the books having an extraordinary amount of similar content can be lined up in groups of three on spokes, - If God took that amount of care in designing the bible, can anyone explain to me why He would choose to designate musical instruments in His Word with terms that are virtually all vile, violent, vain or empty? And why the "first mention" of a musician in scripture associates musical instruments with Cain's descendants, and does so with a word (taw-fas) that is never used in scripture in a good sense? Ever since I was a young Christian, I have heard bible teachers talk about how important the "first mention principle" is in determining how a subject should be viewed in the rest of scripture. Was God not as careful in designing the parts of His Word having musical associations as He was when dealing with other subjects?

I don't know if you have read the file I attached to the second post in this thread, but there are also a lot of negative musical associations in the bible aside from what is mentioned in the question above. My question still stands - Was God not as careful in designing the parts of His Word having musical associations as He was when dealing with other subjects?

Chris

Hi Chris,

Yes, I did read your opening post and I quickly scanned through your PDF file, but to be totally honest I do not agree with the conclusions you have come to regarding not being able to worship God through music.

Music is the heartbeat of life....beginning with the building blocks of the universe - the Atom - everything resonates with its own frequency.... different wavelengths are what music is. When wavelengths blend and harmonize we experience soothing tranquility, when they clash we feel irritation, and disturbance....this is all a part of how God designed his creation; our lives pulse with the beat of the music of the universe, without rhythm our existence would cease.



Rose

[Silence]

Hello Rose,
It is true that everything in this creation vibrates at a frequency. But not all frequencies cause our bodies to produce chemicals that drastically change the way we feel. Depending on the type of rhythms and tones, music will have different effects. That "change" is the main reason people love music so much. Bands sometimes practice for hours to get it "just right" and sometimes they decide something off the cuff is what they want.

When wavelengths blend and harmonize we experience soothing tranquility, when they clash we feel irritation, and disturbance....


Are irritation and disturbance part of the New Jerusalem in the New Heavens and earth? Even soothing and tranquil music has all kinds of dissonance in it and our ears pick it up even if we aren't consciously aware of it. I don't think it is possible to get from one note to another on an instrument without there being a slight change in frequency. And then you get echoes from the waves traveling different distances to surrounding objects and returning later than others.

Doing a "quick scan" of the musical references in the bible is what 99.999% of bible teachers also do. When I first became aware of the negative nature of musical terms in the bible, I began to think back to all the bible teaching I had received in my (then) 20 years as a Christian. It had all been "quick" and "fluffy". Bible study "lite". Even teachers that were big on going into the meanings of the original Hebrew and Greek words when teaching any other subject, as soon as they were dealing with music, that kind of digging never happened. Realizing this made me curious as to what was going on. Why should music get handled with kid gloves?

Lest anyone think I am trying to be mean in going hard on music, it is not that I am doing this to put a fence around something that people want to have. I am trying to get across that music is not a trivial topic, and that is particularly more so for some than others. I used to have songs running through my head every morning when I woke up and sometimes for a good part of the day. And I saw nothing wrong with that except that it sometimes made it hard to concentrate. Now I deal with people all the time who seem to be more affected in this way than I ever was. When I have to communicate with them at work, or wherever, I can tell by their body language and facial expression that they are barely hearing me over the wonderful song that is going through their head. If I give up on trying to get through to them, leave, and then turn around and watch them without their noticing, 90% of the time it is obvious by the rythymic way they move that they are still "rocking out" or "grooving".

But my annoyance at these kinds of things and the effects they have are not really the basis of how I came to view music. I don't know if a ten foot pole is long enough, but does anyone want to take a poke at the following?


If I had to boil my paper down to one pivotal question for discussion, I guess it would be this - Given the fact that God has put so much detailed design into His Word, taking care to put repeating patterns of themes and keywords in just the right books, even to the point where the books having an extraordinary amount of similar content can be lined up in groups of three on spokes, - If God took that amount of care in designing the bible, can anyone explain to me why He would choose to designate musical instruments in His Word with terms that are virtually all vile, violent, vain or empty? And why the "first mention" of a musician in scripture associates musical instruments with Cain's descendants, and does so with a word (taw-fas) that is never used in scripture in a good sense? Ever since I was a young Christian, I have heard bible teachers talk about how important the "first mention principle" is in determining how a subject should be viewed in the rest of scripture. Was God not as careful in designing the parts of His Word having musical associations as He was when dealing with other subjects?

Chris

[Rose]

But my annoyance at these kinds of things and the effects they have are not really the basis of how I came to view music. I don't know if a ten foot pole is long enough, but does anyone want to take a poke at the following?


If I had to boil my paper down to one pivotal question for discussion, I guess it would be this - Given the fact that God has put so much detailed design into His Word, taking care to put repeating patterns of themes and keywords in just the right books, even to the point where the books having an extraordinary amount of similar content can be lined up in groups of three on spokes, - If God took that amount of care in designing the bible, can anyone explain to me why He would choose to designate musical instruments in His Word with terms that are virtually all vile, violent, vain or empty? And why the "first mention" of a musician in scripture associates musical instruments with Cain's descendants, and does so with a word (taw-fas) that is never used in scripture in a good sense? Ever since I was a young Christian, I have heard bible teachers talk about how important the "first mention principle" is in determining how a subject should be viewed in the rest of scripture. Was God not as careful in designing the parts of His Word having musical associations as He was when dealing with other subjects?

Chris

Hi Chris,

Here goes my poke....:fencing:

I am very familiar with the intricate design of Gods Word being closely involved with Richards revelation of the Bible Wheel....myself receiving inspiration to design the stain-glass Bible Wheel (http://www.biblewheel.com/book/chapters/Chapt04.asp)which led to the obvious display of the Tri-Radiant Halo. (http://www.biblewheel.com/Art/Sign_of_Deity.asp) The Bible Wheel declares with outstanding clarity how each "Jot and Tittle" was meticulously place by a designer, but what is not so clear is the many contradictions and God directed actions carried out by his people that in the plain reading of Scripture seems wicked. The same goes for your observation of the names given to musical instruments, just because their names have negative associations does not mean music itself is a negative force.

Just as God designed His Word using the building-blocks of letters to create words....He created the universe with the building-blocks of frequencies which allows the atom to exist. In all of God's designed universe we see the negative and positive, but that does not mean the building-blocks themselves are bad. That which allows music to be created is a fundamental part of our existence and can be used to express very positive feelings of joy or sad feelings of grief, or anger....all is needed to complete the whole picture.


Rose

[Silence]

Hi Rose,


I am very familiar with the intricate design of Gods Word being closely involved with Richards revelation of the Bible Wheel....myself receiving inspiration to design the stain-glass Bible Wheel which led to the obvious display of the Tri-Radiant Halo. The Bible Wheel declares with outstanding clarity how each "Jot and Tittle" was meticulously place by a designer, but what is not so clear is the many contradictions and God directed actions carried out by his people that in the plain reading of Scripture seems wicked. The same goes for your observation of the names given to musical instruments, just because their names have negative associations does not mean music itself is a negative force.


If something is not so clear, wouldn't you think it better to look a little closer or dig a little deeper to see if there is something you missed? That seems to happen with a lot of biblical subjects as evidenced by the many discussions on this forum and throughout the church. Music, if it is discussed at all, usually is surrounded with discussions as to what type of music is or is not fit for Christians. The musical references in the bible that seem to endorse it are used to defend it from any further scrutiny as to whether it should have any place at all.

I'm curious about your reference to the things that God commanded which seem wicked in a plain reading. I'm assuming that the reasoning goes something like "God will sometimes use wicked things to bring about good"? I'm not sure which instances you are talking about, so I don't know how many biblical references there might be about each of them that could shed light on why certain things were commanded to be done. I imagine in the instances you have in mind there are only a few. On the topic of music, there are scores of references, and most Christians are unaware of them. The names of instruments are a just one part of it. The following is part of the file I posted at the start of this thread.

Another mention that has musical implications that I had never heard discussed is the previously mentioned money bag, or 'glossokomon' of Judas, that is also a bag to keep mouthpieces of musical instruments in. The morsel that was given to Judas is also tied to music by being the word psao, which in turn is related to the musical term psallo. In psao the fingers pluck at bread, in psallo they pluck at a bowstring, or a musical instrument's strings. According to psalm 41 Judas is tied to music again because he is the agent used by the enemy to try to "triumph over" Jesus. The phrase 'triumph over' (v.11) in Hebrew is roo-ah which means "to mar, (especially by breaking) figuratively 'to split the ears' (with sound), i.e. shout for alarm or joy, to sound an alarm, make a joyful noise, etc. Musical instruments were always used to sound alarms. This musical attack is part of what caused Jesus to sweat great drops of blood in Gethsemane. The word Gethsemane in Greek means "olive press". It comes from two Chaldean/Hebrew words - gath, and shemane. Shemane means grease,or oily liquid. Gath means "a grape press or a pit for stomping them to extract the juice". I knew this from a study I did years ago. What I didn't see then is the musical connection. One day I decided to look up the root word for Gath that is noted in my concordance. It is naw-gan and I found it means "to thrum i.e. to beat a tune with the fingers; especially to play on a stringed instrument; to make music". That is when I saw that music is associated with attacking and striking the righteous all the way back to Cain, whose name is synonymous with striking, either with a lance or a musical note . Jesus knew this was coming when just prior to entering Gethsemane, He quoted Zechariah 13:7 in Matt. 26:31 - "Strike the Shepherd and the sheep will be scattered". It is interesting that the word for strike here is naw-kaw, and one of the synonyms for Cain's name is kaw-naw. Hebrew often uses this kind of word play with similar sounding or reversed sounding words to draw attention to something. Here is another bit of coincidence - Cain and Judas have at least four things in common #1.Music: Cain through the root word for his name and Judas through the 'glosokomon' he stole from. #2. Striking a shepherd: Cain through the meaning of his name and striking his brother Abel, who was a shepherd; Judas because according to psalm 41 he was the person who "lifted up his heel" against Jesus and was used by satan to try to triumph over or "roo-ah" over ( mar by splitting the ears) and strike the Chief Shepherd, Jesus. #3. Material gain: Cain through his name which means "to acquire and hold fast", and Judas through his thieving from the purse. And #4. Funerals: Cain through 'koon', the root word for his name; and Judas through the "glosokomon" which in addition to meaning a case for musical mouthpieces or a purse, can also mean a casket.

(Last night it occurred to me that one meaning of Cain's name is "a lance". Jesus' side was pierced by a lance and His blood poured out, speaking better things than that of Abel, whom Cain slew.)

One thing to keep in mind as far as God speaking about or commanding things to be done that don't seem right, sometimes God will make a judgment and not explicitly say how He is going to carry it out. God judged Israel at the golden calf incident (of which music was a big part) but the execution and manner of applying the sentence was not immediately spelled out. Parts of it didn't take place for centuries (being taken captive). Part of it happened right away (God gave them up to the false worship they had already embraced). The majority of biblical musical references used to justify music's use happen after Israel is "given over" to false worship and need to be seen in that context. (even the biblical references prior to this occurance all have a 'shady' side) David and the musical psalms are the main references used to justify music in the church. But the musical system that David set up for the tabernacle he built, (and later used in the temple) was put together by him and his army commanders (why them and not the priests?) and was similar to the systems of the pagans. At this point in time Israel was still "given over". They wanted a king like the nations around them and they got a temple like them too. Most of the men that led the music players in the temple had Canaanite names.

A few other things that are rarely pointed out - First, music was not allowed in the temple. It had to stay outside in the outer court, and when the priest(s) went in the temple there had to be silence. And one of the main purposes of the music at the temple was to drown out the cries of the animals as they were being taken to be slaughtered.



Just as God designed His Word using the building-blocks of letters to create words....He created the universe with the building-blocks of frequencies which allows the atom to exist. In all of God's designed universe we see the negative and positive, but that does not mean the building-blocks themselves are bad. That which allows music to be created is a fundamental part of our existence and can be used to express very positive feelings of joy or sad feelings of grief, or anger....all is needed to complete the whole picture.


Just because there are frequencies found everywhere in the material world around us and music is also made up of frequencies, does not mean that music is no different. Music is composed of frequencies created by the work of man's hands, for his own purposes.

The basic atomic frequency that you are talking about is probably the 10 to the 43rd power that is the number of times per second that sub-atomic "quanti" flash into and out of existence. I have heard it described as our universe being projected here from another dimension through a 4-dimensional projector. I have never read or heard of whether scientists can tell if the "reality" in that other dimension(s) has frequencies in it or not. I read somewhere that the first "frequency" in the bible is also the first letter in the bible, so your analogy of letters to frequencies is not so far off. "In" implies a separation. The first distinction. The bible doesn't say whether this is talking about the beginning of this creation's existence in God's mind or the beginning of when He began to put what was in His mind into it's physical existence. The next frequency mentioned is when God divided the light from the darkness and named them day and night. This frequency is going to be done away with (or already has been done away for preterists) as Revelation tells us there will be no night in the New Jerusalem. James also tells us that with God there is no variableness or shadow of turning. In the beginning of Genesis this frequency of day and night is not spelled out as such like the repeating erev/boker is, but it is implied. In any case, frequency has to do with time and the bible says that at some point time will pass away and be no more.

Chris

[Rose]

Hi Rose,



If something is not so clear, wouldn't you think it better to look a little closer or dig a little deeper to see if there is something you missed? That seems to happen with a lot of biblical subjects as evidenced by the many discussions on this forum and throughout the church. Music, if it is discussed at all, usually is surrounded with discussions as to what type of music is or is not fit for Christians. The musical references in the bible that seem to endorse it are used to defend it from any further scrutiny as to whether it should have any place at all.

I'm curious about your reference to the things that God commanded which seem wicked in a plain reading. I'm assuming that the reasoning goes something like "God will sometimes use wicked things to bring about good"? I'm not sure which instances you are talking about, so I don't know how many biblical references there might be about each of them that could shed light on why certain things were commanded to be done. I imagine in the instances you have in mind there are only a few. On the topic of music, there are scores of references, and most Christians are unaware of them. The names of instruments are a just one part of it. The following is part of the file I posted at the start of this thread.


One thing to keep in mind as far as God speaking about or commanding things to be done that don't seem right, sometimes God will make a judgment and not explicitly say how He is going to carry it out. God judged Israel at the golden calf incident (of which music was a big part) but the execution and manner of applying the sentence was not immediately spelled out. Parts of it didn't take place for centuries (being taken captive). Part of it happened right away (God gave them up to the false worship they had already embraced). The majority of biblical musical references used to justify music's use happen after Israel is "given over" to false worship and need to be seen in that context. (even the biblical references prior to this occurance all have a 'shady' side) David and the musical psalms are the main references used to justify music in the church. But the musical system that David set up for the tabernacle he built, (and later used in the temple) was put together by him and his army commanders (why them and not the priests?) and was similar to the systems of the pagans. At this point in time Israel was still "given over". They wanted a king like the nations around them and they got a temple like them too. Most of the men that led the music players in the temple had Canaanite names.

Chris

Hi Chris,

A good example of the seemingly wicked God-directed actions I was referring to is found in the book of Numbers, but it is by no means the only one...just one that makes me want to vomit every time I read it.
Num.31:1-2 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people...7) And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males....9) And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire....15) And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?...17-18) Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

I cannot imagine a more horrific scenario than the account above....and this was sanctioned by God. First the Lord tells Moses to avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites, so they kill all the men and take the women and children captive. Then Moses asks them "why have you kept the women alive?" and tells them to go at once and kill all the male children and all the women who have known a man....then he says the rest you can keep for yourselves...:eek:

Even if this were the only example in the whole Bible it would be enough to make one wonder why it is there. I am far more troubled by these types of problems than I am with the negative associations of music, and musical instruments.

I see music as a vehicle that is used to express negative feelings, even going so far sometimes as to cause people to act out on their feelings, but I don't see it as causing those feelings. Just as letters create words that express feelings, but the letters and words themselves are not good or bad.

Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

If I had to boil my paper down to one pivotal question for discussion, I guess it would be this - Given the fact that God has put so much detailed design into His Word, taking care to put repeating patterns of themes and keywords in just the right books, even to the point where the books having an extraordinary amount of similar content can be lined up in groups of three on spokes, - If God took that amount of care in designing the bible, can anyone explain to me why He would choose to designate musical instruments in His Word with terms that are virtually all vile, violent, vain or empty? And why the "first mention" of a musician in scripture associates musical instruments with Cain's descendants, and does so with a word (taw-fas) that is never used in scripture in a good sense? Ever since I was a young Christian, I have heard bible teachers talk about how important the "first mention principle" is in determining how a subject should be viewed in the rest of scripture. Was God not as careful in designing the parts of His Word having musical associations as He was when dealing with other subjects?

Chris
Hi Chris,

In an early post you said "I'm hoping that the length and "wordiness" of my paper doesn't prevent people from reading it through." Unfortunately, that is what happened. It's a real art to be able to communicate effectively with few words. But in this modern world with the overload of information, that's what we must strive to do.

Now there is much that I have to say, but let me begin with you "boiled down pivotal question." You asked:

why the "first mention" of a musician in scripture associates musical instruments with Cain's descendants

It seems that the answer to that question is the same as the answer to why the first association of tent (ohel, Gen 4:20) which is almost always translated as "tabernacle" is associated with the line of Cain. Are we to conclude that there is something negative, dangerous, or wrong with the Tabernacle of the Lord?

Next, you asked:

why He would choose to designate musical instruments in His Word with terms that are virtually all vile, violent, vain or empty

The first mention of a musical instrument is in Gen 4:21 - harp (k'nur). I see nothing negative about this word. And contrary to your fundamental thesis, Scripture associates musical instruments with great joy and other good words. For example Scripture speaks of the "joy" (masus) of the harp (k'nur) using the same word as when speaking of the joy of Zion:

Psalm 48:2 Beautiful for situation, the joy (masus) of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

Likewise, the harp is called "pleasant":

Psalm 81:2 Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery.

Frankly, I have yet to see any support for the thesis you are suggesting. Please understand that this is just my first impression as I try to answer your "boiled down" question. I look forward to digging into it more with you.

All the very best,

Richard

[Silence]

{A good example of the seemingly wicked God-directed actions I was referring to is found in the book of Numbers, but it is by no means the only one...just one that makes me want to vomit every time I read it.

Num.31:1-2 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people...7) And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males....9) And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire....15) And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?...17-18) Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

I cannot imagine a more horrific scenario than the account above....and this was sanctioned by God. First the Lord tells Moses to avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites, so they kill all the men and take the women and children captive. Then Moses asks them "why have you kept the women alive?" and tells them to go at once and kill all the male children and all the women who have known a man....then he says the rest you can keep for yourselves...

Even if this were the only example in the whole Bible it would be enough to make one wonder why it is there. I am far more troubled by these types of problems than I am with the negative associations of music, and musical instruments.}


Hi Rose,
It is really strange how the first example of a situation where God commands something that makes you want to vomit is one that has an unknown musical association behind it. The background for the occasion in Numbers 31 that you mention can be found in Numbers 22 and 25. Midian was confederate with Moab in trying to destroy Israel. If it had been in their power they likely would have done the same thing to Israel that happened to them. As it was, they did something that in God's eyes is much worse. They introduced Israel to the wiles of Baalam of Beor, who is denounced in both the old and new testaments. The excerpt below in italics is from the file I posted.

For me, the final nail in music's coffin came in my personal bible reading. I was in the book of Numbers and had read about Balak's dread of the approaching Israelites. He hired Balaam to curse them, but he was forced to bless them instead. Since Balaam wanted to get paid, he slipped hints into his prophecies that told Balak how to get Israel to become vulnerable. Get Israel to fall into iniquity and become weak (Numbers 23:21). They did this by tempting the Israelite men with young Moabite women and getting them to join in their idolatrous worship rites, which included sex. 24,000 Israelites fell to this ploy. I read through chapter 25 and tried several times to go on to chapter 26, but my eyes kept going back up the page to the name 'Zimri' in 25:14. After 3 or 4 tries I decided that maybe the Lord was trying to tell me that I should stop and see what is going on with this Zimri guy. He was one of 24,000 to sin in this matter. Why was he singled out for mention? Why were his and the Midianite woman's family ties recorded? Was it because they were from prominent families? Because they were so brazen in their actions? I felt led to look at what Zimri's name means in Hebrew. After finding out it means "musical" I had a feeling I knew where this all was heading. Below is the list of the names in Numbers 25:14-15 along with their meanings.



Zimri "musical"
Salu "weighed" (in the sense of hanging up or suspending
a set of scales. The word 'selah' used in
many of the psalms comes from a related word, and it means "to
suspend or stop an activity" Another link between scales and
''hearing'' which is mentioned next, is the fact that the Hebrew word for
scales is also their word for ears (two scale plates = two ears, plus
the inner ear is crucial for our sense of 'balance' like the two sides of a
scale 'balance out'.)

Simeon "hearing"
Cozbi "false"
Zur "rock"
Midian "strife or contention"

This passage seems like a simple genealogy in an English translation. But to someone who knows Hebrew, and the meaning of the names, it spells out a clear message, especially when viewed in the context of the Moabites efforts to keep the children of Israel out of the promised land. Music suspends your hearing and gets you involved with a false rock (strength, refuge, foundation) ,and with strife, and contention. It is also interesting that the plague was not stopped until Phineas had nailed "music" (Zimri) and "falsehood" (Cozbi) to the ground with a spear. This discovery in Numbers 25 confirms what many other scriptures say about hearing God's word and music.(Job 21:12, Isaiah 5:11-14, Ezekiel 33:30-33, Amos 5:21-24 & 6:3-8, along with others)

24,000 Israelites died as a result of this incident and an untold number of others suffered from getting involved in the pagan "worship" rites that were introduced to them by the Moabites and Midianites putting Baalam's counsel into action. I don't know what all was involved in their worship system so this is mentioned as just a possibility, but it could be that a part of the victims that fell to Israel would have met the same fate from their countrymen, but in the name of 'religion'. The rest would have been living with an unspoken fear that they could be next. To be fair, this is one place in scripture where God commands something that grieves me too when I think about it. It would be bad enough to grow up with war around you all the time, but to survive the battle and then be rounded up afterwards and executed, or to have to watch that happen to your family would be horrible. But then I don't know how they treated each other in everyday life either. In any case I thought I would let you know about the musical connection to this episode that gets "lost in translation" from not knowing "Zimri" means "musical" or "my music".

{}I see music as a vehicle that is used to express negative feelings, even going so far sometimes as to cause people to act out on their feelings, but I don't see it as causing those feelings. Just as letters create words that express feelings, but the letters and words themselves are not good or bad.


You are right about music not always being the cause of our feelings. People will have feelings without music. That is not to say music cannot cause feelings. It can and does. The thing about using music to express feelings is that it exagerrates them. People who are sad listen to sad music and feel worse in hopes of "getting it out of their system". Sometimes it works, sometimes not. Same thing with a person who is happy. Music will elevate those feelings to a higher level. This elevating tendency is why people introduce music into occasions that are highly emotional to start with. It is also one reason the early church fathers condemned it's use in the church. Some people can excercise self-control and handle the elevated feelings and not have their behavior or their sense of judgment change. A good portion of people cannot. In the first case, more effort is spent on controlling the self than would be necessary without the "elevated" feelings. In the second case, people do all kinds of weird things. Music contributes to a "stumbling block". Music and self-control seem kind of contradictory, now that I think about it. If I had never heard or played a particular instrument before, but I knew that some other similar looking instrument could make me feel a certain way, I would have no idea what effect hearing this unknown instrument would have on me. So I take the leap. I like the sound. So I feel the need to "riff" or pull the strings sideways, or hammer them straight down with a different part of my hand to change the sound and find out if I like the feeling I get from that better. Pretty soon I find out what I really like and feel passionate about it's wonderful effect on me. Then I look down on others who try to push their favorite type of music on me, telling me how wonderful it is. Some bible scholars see Romans 14:2 as a reference to strife in that church between those who had come from a pagan background in the Orphic cult and those who had been part of the Dionysic cult. The Orphics were ascetics, big on self-discipline and order.Their concept of the divine was one of order and control. They were also strict vegetarians. The Dionysics on the other hand believed that the ultimate goal was to let go and "lose yourself in the divine". They were big on wine, meat, and wild music. Each of these groups looked down on the other whether they wanted to admit it or not. An eerily similar situation is frequent among modern churches. They have two worship services, one "traditional" and one "contemporary".

Chris

[gem]

Hi Silence,
I read your article, and I can appreciate your concern. I have some questions though.
You made many points that I’d like to discuss, but for now, I’ll just comment on Isaiah ch5, and one other question.
You mentioned Isaiah 5:1-7 'where the Lord sings a song of His vineyard to His well beloved. It wasn't pretty.' I read Isaiah ch5, one thing that struck me was v12! This is from the Net Bible:

"5:12 They have stringed instruments, tambourines, flutes,
and wine at their parties.
So they do not recognize what the Lord is doing,
they do not perceive what he is bringing about.
5:13 Therefore my people will be deported
because of their lack of understanding..."
My question is about the musical terms in their original Hebrew, having root or related words with negative connotations.
It seems to me that this is common in many Hebrew words(I could be wrong.)
Is this just normal for Hebrew, or should we infer that words with negative roots, etc. are negative?
Thanks,
g.

[Silence]

Hi RAM,
Unfortunately there is no "quick and easy version" that will work when dealing with a subject that is not often scrutinized today and is also one where the bible does not directly spell things out but leaves a lot of hints spread out all over the book. Compounding this is the "loss in translation" problem that severs many connections that would be obvious otherwise if we knew the original languages.

For the first part of your post -

{ why the "first mention" of a musician in scripture associates musical instruments with Cain's descendants

It seems that the answer to that question is the same as the answer to why the first association of tent (ohel, Gen 4:20) which is almost always translated as "tabernacle" is associated with the line of Cain. Are we to conclude that there is something negative, dangerous, or wrong with the Tabernacle of the Lord?}

In a sense there is something negative about the tabernacle. This is another case where it is not spelled out but must be inferred. When the Lord led Israel out in the wilderness He dwelt in the pillar of cloud and fire. It was some time before any mention was made of building a tabernacle for Him. What caused the change and created a need for a tabernacle? Revelation 21:22 says that there will be no temple in the New Jerusalem, the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are it's temple.

I can see your point though, about not focusing on the first mention of one particular word and transferring that to all later occasions of the same word. What I was pointing out in Gen. 4:21 is the general occupation of a musician. The reason I feel comfortable in pointing to this as a negative example is not just because it is the first mention, but that there are so many other examples of negative musical references in the bible, this just being the first.



{why He would choose to designate musical instruments in His Word with terms that are virtually all vile, violent, vain or empty

The first mention of a musical instrument is in Gen 4:21 - harp (k'nur). I see nothing negative about this word. And contrary to your fundamental thesis, Scripture associates musical instruments with great joy and other good words. For example Scripture speaks of the "joy" (masus) of the harp (k'nur) using the same word as when speaking of the joy of Zion:

Psalm 48:2 Beautiful for situation, the joy (masus) of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

Likewise, the harp is called "pleasant":

Psalm 81:2 Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery.}


I think I included in my paper in the section on the names of instruments that a few could be considered neutral. I started out considering this to be one of them. Now I am not so sure. "Twanging" isn't high on anyone's list of dangerous sounds, although it can be very annoying if you aren't in the mood for it. Then a while back I read Gesenius' comments on the word blueletterbible.org and found out he related it to "the tremulous, stridulous sound" that is made, and he gives the scripturally unused root word kawn'ar. This 'tremulous' sound is the same sound that the early church fathers spoke out against, whether it came from an instrument or someone's voice. It stirs up the feelings to a point where you have to spend a lot of energy to control them instead of them controlling you, if you can. Also, if you look at the all the references for K'nur in the bible you will find that those written earlier than the time of David are all negative (in my opinion) and those written later than him are negative also.

I just went back and looked at the list of old testament words for musical instruments. There are 12 references and out of them I found two that I originally thought could possibly be free from negative connotations - k-nur, and kel'ee. I have since moved k'nur to the list with the other 10 for the reasons stated above. That leaves k'lee which has a broad range of usage. Even then, it can mean a weapon, and since warfare and music have been closely related all throughout history, this word isn't scot-free either.

In most of the psalms, musical instruments were mentioned as accompanying praises to God for His marvelous works. Why are there no references to musical instruments being put to this use in the new testament where the greatest work God will ever do is recorded? Why are instruments brought into the church slowly over a long period of time and not without a fight? If I get the time I will try to go to a website ccel.org and find some of the references to this struggle and the various arguments put forth. I read through a lot of them a long time ago and wish I had written notes on where to find them. I'm sure you would agree that compared to their writings, my paper is like a footnote. Their basic premise was that instruments were no different than the physical temple, a "type" that was given as an accomodation until the reality could be brought forth, and then done away with.

Chris

[Silence]

Hi Gem,
Thanks for reading my paper and asking your question. It does seem that Hebrew has many root words that have evil connotations, so having an evil root word, in and of itself is not that big a deal. What concerns me is the fact that all the words related to an entire subject have evil or negative meanings or roots, and that entire subject has many negative or evil associations in scripture that are never discussed because there are also some instances where it seems to be cast in a favorable light. People take the (in my opinion, seemingly) favorable mention of music in the psalms (which is found in an old testament context) and use that as a lens to filter out any other explicit testimony in the bible that is negative about music. And forget about looking at things which obviously had a big musical component (like with the golden calf) but it isn't explicitly mentioned or places or people with a musical connection.

It is not just the Hebrew words in the bible that have negative associations. The Greek musical terms in the new testament are no better, they are associated with negative concepts, and are nearly always spoken of in a negative way. Again, a few instances where it seems musical instruments are in good hands (the harps in Revelation) are used to ignore the many other references that are not good.

Chris

[Rose]

Hi Rose,
It is really strange how the first example of a situation where God commands something that makes you want to vomit is one that has an unknown musical association behind it. The background for the occasion in Numbers 31 that you mention can be found in Numbers 22 and 25. Midian was confederate with Moab in trying to destroy Israel. If it had been in their power they likely would have done the same thing to Israel that happened to them. As it was, they did something that in God's eyes is much worse. They introduced Israel to the wiles of Baalam of Beor, who is denounced in both the old and new testaments. The excerpt below in italics is from the file I posted.

For me, the final nail in music's coffin came in my personal bible reading. I was in the book of Numbers and had read about Balak's dread of the approaching Israelites. He hired Balaam to curse them, but he was forced to bless them instead. Since Balaam wanted to get paid, he slipped hints into his prophecies that told Balak how to get Israel to become vulnerable. Get Israel to fall into iniquity and become weak (Numbers 23:21). They did this by tempting the Israelite men with young Moabite women and getting them to join in their idolatrous worship rites, which included sex. 24,000 Israelites fell to this ploy. I read through chapter 25 and tried several times to go on to chapter 26, but my eyes kept going back up the page to the name 'Zimri' in 25:14. After 3 or 4 tries I decided that maybe the Lord was trying to tell me that I should stop and see what is going on with this Zimri guy. He was one of 24,000 to sin in this matter. Why was he singled out for mention? Why were his and the Midianite woman's family ties recorded? Was it because they were from prominent families? Because they were so brazen in their actions? I felt led to look at what Zimri's name means in Hebrew. After finding out it means "musical" I had a feeling I knew where this all was heading. Below is the list of the names in Numbers 25:14-15 along with their meanings.



Zimri "musical"
Salu "weighed" (in the sense of hanging up or suspending
a set of scales. The word 'selah' used in
many of the psalms comes from a related word, and it means "to
suspend or stop an activity" Another link between scales and
''hearing'' which is mentioned next, is the fact that the Hebrew word for
scales is also their word for ears (two scale plates = two ears, plus
the inner ear is crucial for our sense of 'balance' like the two sides of a
scale 'balance out'.)

Simeon "hearing"
Cozbi "false"
Zur "rock"
Midian "strife or contention"

This passage seems like a simple genealogy in an English translation. But to someone who knows Hebrew, and the meaning of the names, it spells out a clear message, especially when viewed in the context of the Moabites efforts to keep the children of Israel out of the promised land. Music suspends your hearing and gets you involved with a false rock (strength, refuge, foundation) ,and with strife, and contention. It is also interesting that the plague was not stopped until Phineas had nailed "music" (Zimri) and "falsehood" (Cozbi) to the ground with a spear. This discovery in Numbers 25 confirms what many other scriptures say about hearing God's word and music.(Job 21:12, Isaiah 5:11-14, Ezekiel 33:30-33, Amos 5:21-24 & 6:3-8, along with others)

24,000 Israelites died as a result of this incident and an untold number of others suffered from getting involved in the pagan "worship" rites that were introduced to them by the Moabites and Midianites putting Baalam's counsel into action. I don't know what all was involved in their worship system so this is mentioned as just a possibility, but it could be that a part of the victims that fell to Israel would have met the same fate from their countrymen, but in the name of 'religion'. The rest would have been living with an unspoken fear that they could be next. To be fair, this is one place in scripture where God commands something that grieves me too when I think about it. It would be bad enough to grow up with war around you all the time, but to survive the battle and then be rounded up afterwards and executed, or to have to watch that happen to your family would be horrible. But then I don't know how they treated each other in everyday life either. In any case I thought I would let you know about the musical connection to this episode that gets "lost in translation" from not knowing "Zimri" means "musical" or "my music".

Hi Chris,

There are many places in Scripture where God-directed actions go beyond my ability to understand, and Num. 31 is one of them. I can see no comparison with the actions of the Moabites and Midianites to that of God telling the Israelites that they can have the virgin women for themselves and kill all the rest....in my book that is no different than the worshipers of Molech who threw their babies into the fire. It is very troubling indeed.





You are right about music not always being the cause of our feelings. People will have feelings without music. That is not to say music cannot cause feelings. It can and does. The thing about using music to express feelings is that it exagerrates them. People who are sad listen to sad music and feel worse in hopes of "getting it out of their system". Sometimes it works, sometimes not. Same thing with a person who is happy. Music will elevate those feelings to a higher level. This elevating tendency is why people introduce music into occasions that are highly emotional to start with. It is also one reason the early church fathers condemned it's use in the church. Some people can excercise self-control and handle the elevated feelings and not have their behavior or their sense of judgment change. A good portion of people cannot. In the first case, more effort is spent on controlling the self than would be necessary without the "elevated" feelings. In the second case, people do all kinds of weird things. Music contributes to a "stumbling block". Music and self-control seem kind of contradictory, now that I think about it. If I had never heard or played a particular instrument before, but I knew that some other similar looking instrument could make me feel a certain way, I would have no idea what effect hearing this unknown instrument would have on me. So I take the leap. I like the sound. So I feel the need to "riff" or pull the strings sideways, or hammer them straight down with a different part of my hand to change the sound and find out if I like the feeling I get from that better. Pretty soon I find out what I really like and feel passionate about it's wonderful effect on me. Then I look down on others who try to push their favorite type of music on me, telling me how wonderful it is. Some bible scholars see Romans 14:2 as a reference to strife in that church between those who had come from a pagan background in the Orphic cult and those who had been part of the Dionysic cult. The Orphics were ascetics, big on self-discipline and order.Their concept of the divine was one of order and control. They were also strict vegetarians. The Dionysics on the other hand believed that the ultimate goal was to let go and "lose yourself in the divine". They were big on wine, meat, and wild music. Each of these groups looked down on the other whether they wanted to admit it or not. An eerily similar situation is frequent among modern churches. They have two worship services, one "traditional" and one "contemporary".

Chris

Many doctrines of the early church fathers, and from many other church leaders throughout the centuries imposed upon believers have done nothing but put more burdens upon those already under much bondage. Whether it be the type of music one can play, or the style of clothing and makeup women can wear, whether one should dance or not, or the positions of leadership women can hold - all of those man-made restrictions leads to robbing us of our freedom in Christ. Music is one of the wonderful ways people can express that freedom. Granted problems can arise when trying to find a style of music that is pleasing to the whole church, that is why many churches try to diversify which also can lead to problems, but I in no way see it as a "stumbling block".

Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi RAM,
Unfortunately there is no "quick and easy version" that will work when dealing with a subject that is not often scrutinized today and is also one where the bible does not directly spell things out but leaves a lot of hints spread out all over the book. Compounding this is the "loss in translation" problem that severs many connections that would be obvious otherwise if we knew the original languages.

For the first part of your post -

{ why the "first mention" of a musician in scripture associates musical instruments with Cain's descendants

It seems that the answer to that question is the same as the answer to why the first association of tent (ohel, Gen 4:20) which is almost always translated as "tabernacle" is associated with the line of Cain. Are we to conclude that there is something negative, dangerous, or wrong with the Tabernacle of the Lord?}

In a sense there is something negative about the tabernacle. This is another case where it is not spelled out but must be inferred. When the Lord led Israel out in the wilderness He dwelt in the pillar of cloud and fire. It was some time before any mention was made of building a tabernacle for Him. What caused the change and created a need for a tabernacle? Revelation 21:22 says that there will be no temple in the New Jerusalem, the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are it's temple.


Hi Chris,

I can see how you came to many of your conclusions, but it seems to me that you are building a case on innuendo without any firm foundation. When I responded to your "boiled down pivotal question" I was told that there is no "quick and easy" way to approach this topic. So I guess your question was not so "boiled down" or "pivotal." It seems to me that your entire thesis seems to be based on "inferences" that do not hold up under scrutiny.

For example, you assert that all the words relating to music have all sorts of negative associations and that this implies we should avoid musical instruments. I am stunned that you include the word "psalms" in that list! You wrote:

# 3. The secular use of the Greek word psallo has ties to both music and warfare

But the NT says that we are to be good soldiers for Christ in our "warfare" with the darkness in the world. Both Paul and James tells us to use Psalms!
Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

James 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
I do not understand how there are any meaningful "negative associations" with the word "psalms" that would suggest that psalms are bad or to be avoided. Indeed, it seems to me that such an idea directly contradicts the plain teaching of Scripture.

It seems to me that your methodology of rejecting musical instruments because of "negative associations" can not lead to a valid understanding. The same methodology could be used to arbitrarily reject anything and everything in the Bible, even God's Temple. It is too imprecise to distinguish between true and false. For example, the first occurrence of OHEL in the line of Cain forces you to assert that there is something "negative" about the Temple in the same way that there is something "negative" about musical instruments. That makes no sense to me at all. There was no temple in the New Jersualem because Christ himself was the temple. In other words, the Temple was a TYPE of Christ. I see nothing "negative" about that.



I can see your point though, about not focusing on the first mention of one particular word and transferring that to all later occasions of the same word. What I was pointing out in Gen. 4:21 is the general occupation of a musician. The reason I feel comfortable in pointing to this as a negative example is not just because it is the first mention, but that there are so many other examples of negative musical references in the bible, this just being the first.

I think this is why your thesis requires so many words. You are moving in circles and contradicting yourself. You explicitly presented the first mention in the line of Cain as primary evidence of your thesis. Now you directly contradict yourself and say that your presented it because it is supported by so many other examples. So here I am writing more words to clear up a case poorly presented. Please don't be offended. I am only speaking plainly in hopes that you will do the same. If your thesis is true, it must have a foundation - a "boiled down pivotal point." As yet, I have not seen it. If you could present it, I think we could make some good progress.



{why He would choose to designate musical instruments in His Word with terms that are virtually all vile, violent, vain or empty

The first mention of a musical instrument is in Gen 4:21 - harp (k'nur). I see nothing negative about this word. And contrary to your fundamental thesis, Scripture associates musical instruments with great joy and other good words. For example Scripture speaks of the "joy" (masus) of the harp (k'nur) using the same word as when speaking of the joy of Zion:

Psalm 48:2 Beautiful for situation, the joy (masus) of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

Likewise, the harp is called "pleasant":

Psalm 81:2 Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery.}


I think I included in my paper in the section on the names of instruments that a few could be considered neutral. I started out considering this to be one of them. Now I am not so sure. "Twanging" isn't high on anyone's list of dangerous sounds, although it can be very annoying if you aren't in the mood for it. Then a while back I read Gesenius' comments on the word blueletterbible.org and found out he related it to "the tremulous, stridulous sound" that is made, and he gives the scripturally unused root word kawn'ar. This 'tremulous' sound is the same sound that the early church fathers spoke out against, whether it came from an instrument or someone's voice. It stirs up the feelings to a point where you have to spend a lot of energy to control them instead of them controlling you, if you can. Also, if you look at the all the references for K'nur in the bible you will find that those written earlier than the time of David are all negative (in my opinion) and those written later than him are negative also.

Again, making subjective judgments about "negative associations" is not how we determine truth in the Bible. It's way too subjective. Everyone will get different answers and the Bible would become Babble.

If you want to use this approach, you will need to establish the "Principle of Negative Associations" as a method Biblical Hermeneutics and give two or three examples of how it works on other doctrines that are well-established in the plain text of Scripture so we can test it and be sure it is valid.

All the very best,

Richard

[Silence]

Hi RAM,
Your point about a case poorly presented is granted. I would make a terrible lawyer. The "boiled down" point I brought up for discussion was a question about the way God carefully designed His Word. I should have known that there would be no quick way to back up my contention that musical terms and things associated with music in the bible are negative in nature. Since there are places where the bible mentions musical instruments in association with positive things like the harp (k'nur) with joy, and there are even places in the psalms that music with instruments is commanded, it becomes easy to pick apart any attempt to make a negative connection to music from other, less explicit examples.

I obviously don't have the time or ability to prove my case, but I would like to end my posting on this topic with two more items that I don't think I mentioned in my paper and which I know can't be used to draw any firm conclusions, but which I find interesting nevertheless. First, the pairing of musicians and craftsmen appearing 4 chapters into the bible and musicians and craftsmen appearing together again approximately the same distance from the end in Revelation 18. Co-incidence or design? I don't know. Second would be the fact that out of all of the times Jesus dealt with anything having to deal with music, only one reference is made in a positive situation, and that is in the parable of the prodigal son with the music and dancing upon his return. It is obvious from the storyline of the parable that this is talking of the rejoicing that takes place in heaven when a wayward one repents, and not a party here on earth.

Chris

[NumberX]

Popmusic! There are singers who want to sing a 'sacret song' and it sounds really good (to me): Hallelujah (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRTvQWuzKWo&feature=related)

Only the lyrics are a bit confusing related to the Bible in this song:

At 1:09 she sings about David I think and the "cut your hair" is from Simson (Shimshon). Well David and Simson lived at the same biblical time 'my professor' wrote. The "broke your throne" I don't know about who she sings: Simson was no king so it must be David. But Simson had to do with Delilah from the Philistines who broke Simson and David's throne is set forever though. There are three Biblical figures who fought the Philistines: Simson, Saul and David, and David defeated them. So with "broke your throne" she is confused and not realistic. But she has a great voice though!

I like popmusic to please my ears as good entertainment but not to learn from the lyrics, the lyrics are like fairy tales, which have also some of the biblical truth in it but mixed up in bits and pieces.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Popmusic! There are singers who want to sing a 'sacret song' and it sounds really good (to me): Hallelujah (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRTvQWuzKWo&feature=related)

Only the lyrics are a bit confusing related to the Bible in this song:

At 1:09 she sings about David I think and the "cut your hair" is from Simson (Shimshon). Well David and Simson lived at the same biblical time 'my professor' wrote. The "broke your throne" I don't know about who she sings: Simson was no king so it must be David. But Simson had to do with Delilah from the Philistines who broke Simson and David's throne is set forever though. There are three Biblical figures who fought the Philistines: Simson, Saul and David, and David defeated them. So with "broke your throne" she is confused and not realistic. But she has a great voice though!

I like popmusic to please my ears as good entertainment but not to learn from the lyrics, the lyrics are like fairy tales, which have also some of the biblical truth in it but mixed up in bits and pieces.
I think that's a great song! Here are the lyrics (my comments in blue):

Well I heard there was a secret chord
That David played, and it pleased the Lord
But you don't really care for music, do ya?
Well it goes like this
The fourth, the fifth
The minor fall and the major lift
The baffled king composing Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah

Most folks think of David only as the triumphant king. I think he was often baffled by God. He often did not understand why things happened they way they did. I like the image a "baffled" David praising God anyways with "hallelujah."

Well Your faith was strong but you needed proof
You saw her bathing on the roof
Her beauty and the moonlight overthrew you
she tied you to her kitchen chair
And she broke your throne and she cut your hair
And from your lips she drew the Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah

David and Samson were two very prominent men of God who had big falls because of women. It seems to me the singer is skillfully weaving the stories of David and Samson. It's not like its meant to teach folks a Sunday School lesson. The song assumes we know the whole story of the Bible and are able to understand the symbols and how they interact. And most significantly, in the fall of both men, there was a "praise the Lord" drawn out, even if in pain and bafflement.

Well baby I've been here before
I've seen this room and I've walked this floor
I used to live alone before I knew ya
I've seen your flag on the marble arch
Love is not a victory march
It's a cold and it's a broken Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah

"Love is not a victory march" - think about that line for a while!

Well there was a time when you let me know
What's really going on below
But now you never show that to me do you?
And remember when I moved in you?
And the holy dove was moving too
And every breath we drew was Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah

These words "And the holy dove was moving too And every breath we drew was Hallelujah" makes me think of the time when the Jews lived in the glory of God when he was present in the temple ... this is the meaning of the "cold and broken hallelujah" that was sung in the foreign land Babylon ...

Psalm 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion. 2 We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof. 3 For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion. 4 How shall we sing the LORD'S song in a strange land?
Well maybe there's a God above
But all I've ever learned from love
Was how to shoot somebody who'd OUT DREW YA
And it's not a cry that you hear at night
It's not somebody who's seen in the light
It's a cold and it's a broken Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah

Read David's Psalms again. Indeed, read the end of Psalm 137:

Psalm 137:8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. 9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Is that love??? It is time we moved beyond the Sunday School lessons taught to children who have yet to learn to think or discern between good and evil. It is time we view the truth of what the Bible really teaches, and what our short and often violent lives really mean in light of its entire message. God created the world as it is. Let's not pretend otherwise.

Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah

Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah <<(held for a long time)
Hallelujah

[NumberX]

"dasheth thy little ones against the stones"
Yeah well we should be tought and teach in this case too that we must not see biblical text compared one-on-one to what we see with our eyes: the material world. Popmusic singers don't see it this way too. Otherwise God would like also to smell offered cattle as you see it here walking around on the planet etc.

David and Shimshon
In the fifth line of the song she sings "The fourth, the fifth" and here she already says I am going to sing about David and Shimshon. David is from the house of Judah (Jehudah who has 10-5-6-5 in it), Jehudah is the fourth son of Jacob/Israel) and Shimshon from the house of Dan, Dan is the fifth son of Jacob/Israel. Because of the 10-5-6-5 in the fourth - which is the name of God that can't be pronounced - she probably got confused in her lyrics later on about the line of the fourth from her fifth line :)

It's always: From the house of David (or Joseph), not: From the house of Dan.
Shimshon and Delilah = "as the sun" and "slow, listless".
What does the sun do? It explodes all the time. This is the sun in us, the Shimshon in us. And it is like day four of creation, the fifth act of God, a working-out of the first. We can read how Shimshon had to give up. All what comes out of the sun explodes and has to go out and because of that life is possible here. The nature science says there was a big bang. Something had to bang, there was something that could bang, a big unity could bang. This big bang is present in every one of us, as with a motor there has to be an explosion. Then the many appears and that means that life here is possible. Fire is also an element of transition. The moon however is cold. A deceiving way is created in the moon, the moon has to deceive: the name Laban is from the white of the moon and Laban deceives Jacob/Israel with his daughters. The moon has also an important measuring role (Haman) in us like when are the meetings, the moadim, the times we meet, how far are we? Everyone has meetings in his life. Popmusic goes also often about the moon.

Shimson and Saul (borrowed) went down in their end-battle to Philistines (those who roll in the dust), but not David (beloved). David saw Bathseba (oath of the seven) of Uriah (light of the Lord) and took her but not went down. Note that many men in the Bible take a women and it's not written that they marry her. David had his troubles (not much in battles) but never felt departed from the Lord and The Psalms just bubbled out of him, The Psalms came from him. David was strong not to kill Saul when he could. Shimshon made no psalms, he was strong and fought and was ultimately deceived by 'the cold', by 'the slow, listless', by the moon, from 'those who roll in the dust', where he was in love with.

**boasting mode on** I could make a better lyric. **boasting mode off**

PS: Corrections on the meaning of the names are on the next page!

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Very interesting and helpful analysis of the meanings of the names.

But I have a few questions.

Saul means "asked" - why do you choose "borrowed"? Granted, when you borrow something, you ask for it, but you also ask for things that you are not borrowing, so I don't understand why "borrowed" was chosen.

How do you get the idea of "rolling in dust" from "Philistines?"

You said Bathsheba means "oath of seven" - it actually means Daughter (Bath) of the Oath/Seven (Sheba is a pun meaning both oath and seven).

Do you have any independent association between Delilah and the Moon? What about the Moon as a "faithful witness" and symbol of the Church?

As for you "boasting" could you also sing those better lyrics?

[NumberX]

I'm glad you find it interested and helpful. Your website invites to put this info online.

The names I remembered 'by head'. Le'ts look them up. One source is the book "The names in the Bible". This is A Dutch book with the meaning of names and concordeance and gematria value that I bought and is written by several writers and took about two years to write.

Saul - asked; borrowed. So it means both according to my information. The Biblical asked; borrowed was annointed by God, this makes asked/borrowed special. Beloved was annointed too. Beloved knew not to kill the annointed one of God. Whoever does that can reckon on the wrath of God he must have thought.

Philistines come from Philistea. Philistea means "revolving, wallowing / rolling oneself (in the dust)". I don't know why the translators added "in the dust", do you have a clue?

Delilah and moon - ah it's Delilah and night I meant (women are in fact all connected with the moon though, and the moon shows that there is a way; light, more light, etc.). And it's not written that Delilah came from the Philistines also as I wrote before, see the source Etymology (http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/delilah-bible). In the book "The names in the Bible" is the translation "slow, listless". 'My prof' writes: "'Delilah' comes from the word 'night'. 'From the night' it means". Shimshon loved her and she didn't conceil that she wanted to betray him all the time. It's a story of 1000 and 1 night.
The woman 'from the night' and hair:
In our hair is something important present. In our life, there were we meet hair on our body, but also in our dreams and fantasies about hair, is hair something. But what? The word for hair in Hebrew is written with shin-ayin-resh (300-70-200) and this is in full word value 360+130+510 exactly 1000. And 1000, eleph, is in language identical to aleph, 1. It shows, that in this what includes the 1000, there is a unity, oneness, present. And the cutting of the hair means the breaking of that unity*. There is more to tell about hair, but hereby the story of 1000 and 1 (from the) night ends.

Bathsheba - Daughter of the rest/certainty/the seven/the oath.
Yeah Bath means Daughter of course, I wrote my text too fast.


I like it to explore the word of The Word, not with having a sudden twist-given conclusion that a word is symbolic to "The Church", that's too religious for me and I don't think that way. No, I like to connect the word of The Word with everyday things by translating a name as we see here above, and with matter as in my contributions here (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=44). I am used to it, learned much from 'my professor' too. It's to learn about God's creation in us and around us, I like that, that info is like nice music to my ears.

* It doesn't mean that in the physical world one has to let his hair grow or starts to do a haircut when one is asleep or has to do other unusual things with hair.


An altered version of the song Hallelujah (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRTvQWuzKWo&feature=related):

Well I heard there was a secret chord
That David played before the Lord
Think it's not a kind of song you like now, do ya?
Well it goes like this
The fourth, the fifth
The minor fall the major lift
A king who is composing Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah

The sun the moon the stars above
All joining with the Lord of Love
But you don't really want someone to sue ya
The Sunny and Delilah came
The Philistines and who’s to blame
And all of them they met for Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah

And David saw Bathsheba bath
He was aroused and in his heart
He planned a thing a king can only do jah
Uriah who did loose his life
And Bath now has become his wife
Lord thought it was bad but I sing Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah

Gematria I know a bit
And how some Bible systems fit
To the creation we are seeing here jah
Maybe I’m gonna learn some more
Before I sweep my kitchen floor
But now I like to sing more Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah

Well sure there is a God above
And sure there flies a dove of love
But I think about influencing you jah
It’s not that I don’t want to see
The sweet things of a honey bee
It's just that I like to sing oft Hallelujah
Hallelujah
oh Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Halleluuuuojaaah

[Silence]

Hello Everybody,
After giving up on presenting a decent case against the use of instrumental music, recently I decided to do some more reading on the topic of musical research and found a book that might interest some here. It was written about five years ago by a guy named Philip Dorrel,and it has a new take on the topic of what music "is". His thesis looks at music from an evolutionary standpoint and explores why music has been so pervasive throughout human history with that aspect in mind. He argues that music is a "super-stimulus" that has been adopted to increase our ability to process and judge the speech of those we hear talking to us. The resulting increase in ability to judge the content and emotional state of those who speak to us supposedly gives one an advantage in surviving, finding a mate and reproducing over the long term. You can download this rather long, technical book here - http://whatismusic.info/download.html

It is not far fetched to associate hearing music with hearing speech, since speech has many attributes in common with music, like tempo and rhythm, tone inflection, volume changes, etc, so it seems there is something to Mr. Dorrel's theory. The bible also mentions music in relation to hearing God and other people, and history has many references to the similarities between music and speech. But as to whether the use of music as a "super-stimulus" to improve one's ability to process and judge another's motivations and emotions through their speech is a long-term benefit, I have my doubts. It is interesting that Mr. Dorrel has no problem acknowledging the deceiving power that music has through it's ability to manipulate the emotions, but he excuses this by saying that the effects are temporary and go away after you quit listening. This may or may not be true. A good portion of people are more affected than others. And he doesn't address the pervasiveness of music in our culture as a possible obstacle to getting free from the ability of music to decieve and sway people. He even talks about his efforts to come up with a "music generating algorithim" that will produce a constant stream of new, "high quality" music that he also readily admits will result in many people becoming "junkies", quitting their jobs, and ignoring everything but music as much as possible. History is full of examples testifying to the ability of music to do this. Rose I know you see music as a something that requires the church to accomodate various preferences, but is not a stumbling block. I don't see how it cannot be one for a good portion of the people. Worship junkies who talk a lot about how they have to be careful not to "worship 'worship' " rather than the Lord. Most of the churches I have been to have several. I meant to address this issue as the thread went on but I started feeling so foolish about my inability to defend what I was discussing with Richard, that I gave up on trying to expand into another area,particularly one that is not the subject of explicit biblical testimony.

I also think I sold myself short when I failed to come up with a "quick and easy" defense for my "boiled down, pivotal" question. I guess I was thinking in terms of concentrating on what I thought was one of the stronger points in my thesis, that being the negative nature of most of the things associated with music and musical terms in the bible. Compared to the amount of other aspects of music that could be tackled, I thought that was boiled down. But like Richard pointed out, most of what I presented was not explicit in nature and relied on inferences. What I was concentrating on was the large number of musical terms and references that can be used to draw inferences. Maybe I can be accused of being prejudiced by looking for patterns and then making a big deal of of it when I find what I am looking for. In being as objective as I can, I don't think this is the case, and particularly not when dealing with looking at music in a negative light. I did not start out having an axe to grind. On the contrary, I was looking for evidence about how foundational music is to everything. And I have been none too eager to go through the hassles of presenting negative things about something that people love so much. With music, like a lot of other topics, the bible seems to have contradictions in the way it speaks of certain people, places and things. It is kind of like a sermon I heard years ago when I first became a Christian about how poor Solomon gets a few compliments in the old testament, but later also gets a lot of slights tacked on, particularly in the new testament. What are we to make of this, if anything? How should we view Solomon and his reign? I don't know.

The same thing happens when you look at the references to the temple. There seems to be conflicting viewpoints presented. I was not forced to see the tabernacle or the temple as something bad because the word o'hel was first mentioned in connection with the line of Cain. I just noticed that the Israelites went for quite a while before the need for a tabernacle was brought up. And then how the temple was the last thing Stephen mentioned before he finished telling the Jewish leaders that they had always resisted the Holy Spirit. He even implies that Solomon went beyond what David had envisioned for the temple by using a different word in reference to each of them. A few weeks after my last previous post, I was reading on the "Sevenfold Bible Canon here and found a post by Victor noting the possibility that Solomon's temple was connected in some way to the second day of Genesis when the waters were divided. He mentioned the five huge lavers on either side of it that contained water as being a possible type of the dividing of the waters by a raquiya. This day is the only day of creating that is not spoken of as being "good". Neither is it labelled "bad". The only reason that comes to mind as to why it is not called "good" is because it involves a seperation between like and like. God divided light from darkness, day from night, etc. , which things are different from each other. The distinction made between the waters that were divided seems only in relation to whether they were under or over the raquiya. The tabernacle, and later on, the temple, both involved "dividing" and "raquiyas". The courtyard and roof/walls of the tabernacle/temple divided it from the camp.
It was divided itself into three parts. It also involved taking the tribe of Levi, whose name means "attached" and "seperating" him from the rest of Israel. The burden of building the second temple divided Israel. There was also a lot of "raqah" involved in hammering out the metals used to cover the ark, the poles, the walls, and appurtenances of each, which is the root word for raquiya. It doesn't seem too far fetched to see a lot of conceptual ties between the temple and the second day.

I hope you all don't mind that I am always popping in and out of sight and have not been able to consistently continue discussions on the threads I post on. I appreciate the ability to do this as I take forever to put a post together and I shouldn't be spending so much time. Maybe someday I will have the time to do some uninterrupted study, sharpen my thinking and writing skills, and join in more. Until then I still stop in to read posts from a few threads once in a while.

God Bless All,
Chris

[Silence]

I have a facebook friend who has been trying to open the zipped file with my paper on music in the scriptures but to no avail, so I am going to try to attach a pdf copy here to see if that works.

[FirstImpact]

I have just read it all, it is really interesting actually..