What is the gospel?

[joel]

I am getting fed up with the pseudo, new age, modern version of the gospel.

One person says.........that all is already finished.......all propheces are already fulfilled...........and if that is wrong....then......it is wrong indeed.

Another says this.....another says that..........and we all continue in a state of disagreement with each other.

This cannot be right......this cannot be glorifying God. It is disunity.

What can we do about it?

I am sick and tired of stupid assumptions, and stupid assertions that some proclaim.

I am weary of discussing these things with those who proclaim "this".....and those who proclaim "that".

Let's start again with the basics;

I say that this is the basics of the gospel that Jesus proclaimed, and that Paul, the apostle of the gentiles, brought;

We are all under sin, subject to the wrath of God.

We are to get under the shelter of His blood.

This is the beginning.

Can we all agree on this?

Joel

[Clifford]

I am getting fed up with the pseudo, new age, modern version of the gospel.

One person says.........that all is already finished.......all propheces are already fulfilled...........and if that is wrong....then......it is wrong indeed.

Another says this.....another says that..........and we all continue in a state of disagreement with each other.

This cannot be right......this cannot be glorifying God. It is disunity.

What can we do about it?

I am sick and tired of stupid assumptions, and stupid assertions that some proclaim.

I am weary of discussing these things with those who proclaim "this".....and those who proclaim "that".

Let's start again with the basics;

I say that this is the basics of the gospel that Jesus proclaimed, and that Paul, the apostle of the gentiles, brought;

We are all under sin, subject to the wrath of God.

We are to get under the shelter of His blood.

This is the beginning.

Can we all agree on this?

Joel

I can, since it agrees with what Jesus said in John 3:36:

And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.'

Clifford

[Rose]

I am getting fed up with the pseudo, new age, modern version of the gospel.

One person says.........that all is already finished.......all propheces are already fulfilled...........and if that is wrong....then......it is wrong indeed.

Another says this.....another says that..........and we all continue in a state of disagreement with each other.

This cannot be right......this cannot be glorifying God. It is disunity.

What can we do about it?

I am sick and tired of stupid assumptions, and stupid assertions that some proclaim.

I am weary of discussing these things with those who proclaim "this".....and those who proclaim "that".

Let's start again with the basics;

I say that this is the basics of the gospel that Jesus proclaimed, and that Paul, the apostle of the gentiles, brought;

We are all under sin, subject to the wrath of God.

We are to get under the shelter of His blood.

This is the beginning.

Can we all agree on this?

Joel

I understand your frustration, but the problem remains that we as Christians living in the 21st century, cannot possibly view things the way a 1st century person did.

The 1st century Jew was living under the Old Covenant Law, their whole lives revolved around the Temple, its sacrifices, and Feasts, so the words Jesus spoke to them hit the very heart of their being.

We as 21st century Christians living under a whole different system with minds that understand things far differently than those that came before us, must interpret the Word of God for the Eternal Truths it contains.

Many of the proclamations contained in the Bible - especially those that Jesus spoke - were directed specifically at those who were subject to the laws of the Old Covenant, for they were the examples which God used to proclaim His Eternal Truths. Even the phrase you used "We are to get under the shelter of His blood" had a very personal meaning to those that knew animal sacrifice as a part of their daily lives....we are far removed from the meaningfulness of blood sacrifice.

I fear we will never find unity as long as there are as many interpretations of Scripture as there are people...:p

....but the Eternal Truth we know, is that God is Love, and His mercy endures forever...:pray:


Rose

[joel]

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (King James Version)

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
-----------------------------------------

Rose,

The gospel, exact and in precise terms, was first delivered to Paul. Then, to those who in the first century received his ministry.....and is exactly the same for us, now, 2,000 years later.

The message has not changed.

The messengers have changed being now those who repeat the gospel, or, who bring another gospel which Paul did not proclaim,......but......which he warned about.

The listeners....then.....and.......now can hear the same gospel and with the aid of the holy spirit, believe, and come into saving faith. This is the same as then.

Many different versions of the gospel have been introduced. And any other version cannot bring salvation......it does not contain the power to save.

So.......the most important issue is; are you presenting the gospel presented to Paul which he proclaimed? Or........some other version?

Joel

[Clifford]

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (King James Version)

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
-----------------------------------------

Rose,

The gospel, exact and in precise terms, was first delivered to Paul. Then, to those who in the first century received his ministry.....and is exactly the same for us, now, 2,000 years later.

The message has not changed.

The messengers have changed being now those who repeat the gospel, or, who bring another gospel which Paul did not proclaim,......but......which he warned about.

The listeners....then.....and.......now can hear the same gospel and with the aid of the holy spirit, believe, and come into saving faith. This is the same as then.

Many different versions of the gospel have been introduced. And any other version cannot bring salvation......it does not contain the power to save.

So.......the most important issue is; are you presenting the gospel presented to Paul which he proclaimed? Or........some other version?

Joel

Hi Joel,

I agree with you that the Gospel does not change with time, circumstances, or different cultures. The Gospel that Jesus preached and Paul proclaimed is the same Gospel that we are to proclaim today and is the only way to salvation. The truth of the Gospel does not change with the times or with different cultures.

I think it is a slippery road when people say that this portion or that portion of the Gospel only applies to the specific people it was spoken or written to. For sure some of the things for example that Paul wrote to different churches pertained to issues they were dealing with but the truth behind what he wrote or spoke can be applied today. Everything in the Bible was spoken or written to a particular group of people at a specific time but that does not mean it does not apply to us.

Clifford

[joel]

The gospel as presented to Paul is the exact Word which was presented to him. He didn't trifle with it......adjust it.....add to it.....twist it.....or generally disregard the exact words as if they were not important to be spoken as exactly given to him.

He delivered it over to the churches.......it is exactly, precisely written in his letter to the Corinthians. It contains the power of God to save.

We may explain it by using other illustrations......but we must protect it.....and say it back to each other.....and say it to the adversary who wants to steal our liberty.

The gospel is not..........our explanation of what God has done.........and what has occurred to the church, and to the world around us......it is not a narrative of historical facts,nor our version of those facts.

It is the "well message" that heals, liberates, and brings His saving grace into our lives.

Joel

[Rose]

I am not speaking of a different Gospel, or another name by which we are saved. What I am speaking of is how people living in different periods of time interpret the meaning of what Scripture is saying. The Gospel message is a very small portion of Scripture.

It's a pretty obvious fact that no Christian practices animal sacrifice, yet the Jews of the 1st century that Jesus was speaking to did....hence many of his teachings focused on that, and they had a personal understanding of what he was speaking of.

As I said in my other post, the Eternal Truths contained in the Bible are timeless, but good portions of the Bible are specifically addressed to a people of another time period and those exhortations, and warnings apply to them. For instance, when Jesus spoke to the Jews of their Temples destruction he was specifically speaking to that 1st century audience, as was the case with many of his other proclamations, like when he overturned the tables of the money changers in the Temple.

The Bible is also full of historical stories which give us understanding into how people lived in ancient times, but that in no wise instructs us how we should live today. Take for instance slavery; it was practiced with Gods approval in Old Testament times, but today we know that slavery is wrong. The same goes for the treatment of women in the Old Testament, and men being allowed to have more than one wife and concubines, or being able to divorce their wives at will. Those things are all wrong, but they were allowed.

The true liberator of man is the message of God's love and forgiveness, not the message of hell and damnation.

Rose

[joel]

who said anything about hell and damnation? how is that good news?

the gospel is the good news...it is a prolamation...not an explanation

joel

[Rose]

who said anything about hell and damnation? how is that good news?

the gospel is the good news...it is a prolamation...not an explanation

joel

I agree the Gospel is supposed to be good news, but Hell and damnation is part of the Gospel that is preached. Repent and receive the good news, or go to Hell!

Rose

[Clifford]

I agree the Gospel is supposed to be good news, but Hell and damnation is part of the Gospel that is preached. Repent and receive the good news, or go to Hell!

Rose

The Gospel is the good news that we are saved from Hell and damnation through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Jesus basically said receive the good news or go to Hell when He said "repent or perish" or "if you don't believe who I claim to be you will die in your sins."

Clifford

[Rose]

The Gospel is the good news that we are saved from Hell and damnation through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Jesus basically said receive the good news or go to Hell when He said "repent or perish" or "if you don't believe who I claim to be you will die in your sins."

Clifford

Hi Clifford,

I will tell you what I told Cheow on the other Thread. I don't believe there is a literal Hell, or that God sends anyone there.

The language that Jesus used was figurative....there is not really a literal lake of fire that burns forever into which souls are thrown where they never die but are miraculously kept alive so they can suffer eternally....:eek:



Rose

[Gil]

Joel,

Well Joel, That didn't take long.
Four responders and a 50/50 split.
That percentage is about right whenever dialog is presented from
the two camps of Preterism and fundamental Christianities Futurist stance.
The debate is more over , was the second coming of Christ Jesus at AD70
or is there still to be an earthly/physical coming which was future , not only for Paul but apparently still being anticipated by evangelical Christianity

This of course brings up the question, What is the Gospel that was presented by Jesus and Paul. ?

I side with Rose on this .With respect to her answers.

----------------

Joel > Let's start again with the basics;

I say that this is the basics of the gospel that Jesus proclaimed, and that Paul, the apostle of the gentiles, brought;

1. We are all under sin, subject to the wrath of God.

2. We are to get under the shelter of His blood.


Gil > It is God who is propitiated by the vindication of His holy and righteous character, whereby, through the provision He has made in the vicarious and expiatory sacrifice of Christ, He has so dealt with sin that He can show mercy to the believing sinner in the removal of his guilt and the remission of his sins.
through His expiatory death, is the Personal means by whom God shows the mercy of His justifying grace to the sinner who believes. His "blood" stands for the voluntary giving up of His life, by the shedding of His blood in expiatory sacrifice, under Divine judgment righteously due to us as sinners, faith being the sole condition on man's part.
The shed blood upon the cross was make reconciliation. Through the propitiation sacrifice of Christ, he who believes upon Him is by God's own act delivered from justly deserved wrath, and comes under the covenant of grace.

The Day of Atonement within the Temple feast days was for the taking away of the sins of Israel and the removal of guilt. For the Hebrew "The life of the flesh is in the blood."

The shed blood of sacrifice was to appease God ,so God would find favor in them through this work of their own hands.
After the cross there was no more sacrifice for the sins of Israel to be had and were of no effect.

The lid or cover of the ark of the covenant," signified the Propitiatory,
"the cover," a meaning connected with the covering or removal of sin .
For the Jews ,the blood shed by Jesus on the cross was a covering and a replacement for the Ark of the covenant of Law . It was for their atonement.

Their is no longer an atonement , and for the Christian the shed blood is
the means by which we are reconciled back to God the Father.

Through His voluntary expiatory sacrifice in the shedding of His blood, under Divine judgment upon sin, and through His resurrection, Christ has become the Mercy Seat for His people.

The Blood shed at the cross was for the covering of Sin.

We are now under the covenant of Grace that is the means of our reconciliation and are no longer under the covenant of Law.

There is no Law to be found within Grace.
The two are like oil and water and will not mix.
To try and make it Grace + Law or Law + Grace is to still be under the Law
of Sin and the death that comes of the Law
.
Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

So the Question still remains.
What is the Gospel?

Gil

[Clifford]

Hi Clifford,

I will tell you what I told Cheow on the other Thread. I don't believe there is a literal Hell, or that God sends anyone there.

The language that Jesus used was figurative....there is not really a literal lake of fire that burns forever into which souls are thrown where they never die but are miraculously kept alive so they can suffer eternally....:eek:



Rose

Hi Rose,

I take Jesus at His word when He says:

'Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt 10:28

Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. Matt 25:41

No further chance given here to repent, but "Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons."

'You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it. Matt 7:13

Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws. Matt 7:21-23.

Notice Jesus did not give them another invitation to receive Him or repent of their evil deeds. He said "Get away from me, you who break God’s laws."

I think these verses are enough to prove that Hell is a real place that the wicked go to and that Universalism is false. There are many more verses I could quote that say the same thing.

I take Jesus at His word and believe He warned people about Hell because it is a real place.

Clifford

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Joel,

Well Joel, That didn't take long.
Four responders and a 50/50 split.
That percentage is about right whenever dialog is presented from
the two camps of Preterism and fundamental Christianities Futurist stance.
The debate is more over , was the second coming of Christ Jesus at AD70
or is there still to be an earthly/physical coming which was future , not only for Paul but apparently still being anticipated by evangelical Christianity

This of course brings up the question, What is the Gospel that was presented by Jesus and Paul. ?

I side with Rose on this .With respect to her answers.

----------------

Joel > Let's start again with the basics;

I say that this is the basics of the gospel that Jesus proclaimed, and that Paul, the apostle of the gentiles, brought;

1. We are all under sin, subject to the wrath of God.

2. We are to get under the shelter of His blood.


Gil > It is God who is propitiated by the vindication of His holy and righteous character, whereby, through the provision He has made in the vicarious and expiatory sacrifice of Christ, He has so dealt with sin that He can show mercy to the believing sinner in the removal of his guilt and the remission of his sins.
through His expiatory death, is the Personal means by whom God shows the mercy of His justifying grace to the sinner who believes. His "blood" stands for the voluntary giving up of His life, by the shedding of His blood in expiatory sacrifice, under Divine judgment righteously due to us as sinners, faith being the sole condition on man's part.
The shed blood upon the cross was make reconciliation. Through the propitiation sacrifice of Christ, he who believes upon Him is by God's own act delivered from justly deserved wrath, and comes under the covenant of grace.

The Day of Atonement within the Temple feast days was for the taking away of the sins of Israel and the removal of guilt. For the Hebrew "The life of the flesh is in the blood."

The shed blood of sacrifice was to appease God ,so God would find favor in them through this work of their own hands.
After the cross there was no more sacrifice for the sins of Israel to be had and were of no effect.

The lid or cover of the ark of the covenant," signified the Propitiatory,
"the cover," a meaning connected with the covering or removal of sin .
For the Jews ,the blood shed by Jesus on the cross was a covering and a replacement for the Ark of the covenant of Law . It was for their atonement.

Their is no longer an atonement , and for the Christian the shed blood is
the means by which we are reconciled back to God the Father.

Through His voluntary expiatory sacrifice in the shedding of His blood, under Divine judgment upon sin, and through His resurrection, Christ has become the Mercy Seat for His people.

The Blood shed at the cross was for the covering of Sin.

We are now under the covenant of Grace that is the means of our reconciliation and are no longer under the covenant of Law.

There is no Law to be found within Grace.
The two are like oil and water and will not mix.
To try and make it Grace + Law or Law + Grace is to still be under the Law
of Sin and the death that comes of the Law
.
Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

So the Question still remains.
What is the Gospel?

Gil
Did you intentionally skip verse 2 of chapter 8?.

"Salvation" is not forgiveness against the law of commandments but forgiveness against the very law of sin (missing the mark) and (spiritual)death inheirited from the Garden.
The "Good News" is that individually we can be bought back into a first person and first class son/daughter relationship with the very Creator/Lover/Father and being given the adoption as sons/daughters to call out in faith and confidence......DADDY.. There are elements of that new birth, but the major element is recieving it by faith in that Creator and his Good Character.

God/Jesus established the garden law and it's parameters and permitting the tempter his allowance to tempt and lie. There were elements of that scenario which were destined and preknown to have a failed outcome due to God foreknowing the ability and characteristics and tendencies of the one he created. God could not jut sweep aside the law of imperfection/death so God himself took on himself the responsibility for the law and for the wrath of the law, with the sinless dying a sinners death to overthrow and cancel the law of sin/death for those who recieve by faith. Rom 10:4.

I think Luke calls this the 'more excellent way.

Paul says in Gal that the promise that blessings to all nations and peoples of the world through Abraham was called the gospel. (good news)

This is an important question.

The "Gospel" is for forgiveness of judgment and seperation from fellowship with the Father in the present life as well as benefits in the next. But in order to lawfully satisfy the judgment against mankind from the law of sin/death one not worthy of seperation needed to suffer and die to overthrow and abolish the law for those of faith. Paul goes into some of these things in Romans. The earth quaked at his death signifying an eternal change in heavens laws and judgent against mankind.
There is NO CONDEMNATION... etc etc.. It's OK to be Human...and now with a Spirit Father and Holy Brother relationship to guide into a life more fulfilling and pleasing to him... Rom 6-8 and especially 7 talk of how being free from the law...we must be guided by the Spirit to please the Father since obedience to the law does not (and did not) justify.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

The Gospel is the good news that we are saved from Hell and damnation through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Jesus basically said receive the good news or go to Hell when He said "repent or perish" or "if you don't believe who I claim to be you will die in your sins."

Clifford

I wonder if these statements and perspectives can be clarified by the context of Jesus being the Prophet of Duet 18 which was prophesied that would bring on the latter end of the inferior mosaic covenant people of law?. Note also Duet 4,5; and John 5 and 6. "Repent" or perish then meant to repent from faith in the mosaic law and their being jews by blood and place faith in the New Prophet.....or perish....

[Rose]

Hi Rose,

I take Jesus at His word when He says:

“Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt 10:28

Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. Matt 25:41

No further chance given here to repent, but "Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons."

“You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it. Matt 7:13

Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws. Matt 7:21-23.

Notice Jesus did not give them another invitation to receive Him or repent of their evil deeds. He said "Get away from me, you who break God’s laws."

I think these verses are enough to prove that Hell is a real place that the wicked go to and that Universalism is false. There are many more verses I could quote that say the same thing.

I take Jesus at His word and believe He warned people about Hell because it is a real place.

Clifford
Hi Clifford,

I guess now we know why there are so many different doctrines...:p Those verses you quoted prove nothing....it's all in the interpretation of them.

I still say you can't have it both ways....either God is a God of eternal kindness and mercy, or He shows no mercy on some and sends them to Hell! Both qualities cannot exist together - one cancels out the other.


Rose

[joel]

The gospel is God's "good news", His "good message".

The gospel contains the power of God to save.

The gospel reveals the righteousness of God.

This is the gospel that Paul proclaimed.

He said in I Corinthians 15:1-4;

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you
the gospel which I preached unto you
which also ye have received,
and wherein ye stand.
By which also ye are saved,
if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you,
unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you
first of all
that which I also received,
how that Christ died for our sins
according to the scriptures;
and that he was buried,
and that he rose again the third day
according to the scriptures:
and he was seen....
----------------------------------------------

This is the gospel as delivered by Paul to the Gentiles.

The elements are essential;
1.) Jesus died
2.) Jesus was entombed,
3.) Jesus arose from the dead.

The gospel contains the power to save.

It is not.......1.)....+ 2.)........+3.).........+anything else. When we present the anything else.....we are adding elements unto the gospel which we must be a part of it......which are not.

Joel

[joel]

Please.....I beg of you,
what I say is true.
Our Lord Jesus...gave His all for us
He saved not just a few.

He saved all,
not one left behind,
He redeemed everyone,
of mankind.

You, Our Lord, did not flench,
You put it all on the line,

You did not......pull it back, as if to say,
I cannot give you all,

I Love YOU my Father,
because you loved me in my fall.

In Adam, I was was weak,
in him........a passive, stubborn lump of clay.
But...........you made me this way.

Your love is true,
and what I say to you,
My preciuos One...who gave all no less,
You withheld not one word, not any
You withheld not one thought,
How can we not give you our very selves.

You withheld not one praise,
How can we not give you all,
How can we give you the ultimate,
We Love you Lord,
Because you gave your love.........
when you let them take you to the cross,
even when they did not understand,
even when they failed to see
that you gave your all.....you sacrified your total self
for your Father,......and for me.....and for us,.....your body
which was also our way into your truth, your grace,
that which your very life is ours.....your death, brings us into the place...

How can we replace,
with any praise,
We cannot express our gratitude,
to you, Oh Lord, our very life, our attitude, now,
to you, Oh master of us all,....
we cannot express,
your wonderousness.

Joel

[Clifford]

Hi Clifford,

I guess now we know why there are so many different doctrines...:p Those verses you quoted prove nothing....it's all in the interpretation of them.

I still say you can have it both ways....either God is a God of eternal kindness and mercy, or He shows no mercy on some and sends them to Hell! Both qualities cannot exist together - one cancels out the other.


Rose


I guess now we know why there are so many different doctrines...:p Those verses you quoted prove nothing....it's all in the interpretation of them.

OK, I guess the Bible does not mean what it plainly says, but is written is some secret code and is all figurative so the average person reading it can't take it to mean what it plainly says. So we really have no basis to have a discussion since everything in the Bible that is contrary to your doctrines are summarily dismissed as not relevant today, or its all figurative language, and it does not mean what it plainly says. So the person who does not want to forgive those who trespass against them or to love their enemies can say Jesus really didn't mean for us to forgive those who trespass against us and love our enemies He was just using figurative language to mean we should be nice to people if we can.

I think the Bible for the most part was written so the average person could understand what God was saying. Jesus used simple ideas and concepts to communicate to the people of His day who were mostly uneducated. I think we over complicate the Bible. We must remember it was written to and for the average person.


I still say you can have it both ways....either God is a God of eternal kindness and mercy, or He shows no mercy on some and sends them to Hell! Both qualities cannot exist together - one cancels out the other.

The verses on God's wrath and judgment are right there in the Bible. You can't just ignore them and pretend they don't exist. God does show His mercy to all but not all receive it.

Clifford

[Rose]

OK, I guess the Bible does not mean what it plainly says, but is written is some secret code and is all figurative so the average person reading it can't take it to mean what it plainly says. So we really have no basis to have a discussion since everything in the Bible that is contrary to your doctrines are summarily dismissed as not relevant today, or its all figurative language, and it does not mean what it plainly says. So the person who does not want to forgive those who trespass against them or to love their enemies can say Jesus really didn't mean for us to forgive those who trespass against us and love our enemies He was just using figurative language to mean we should be nice to people if we can.

I think the Bible for the most part was written so the average person could understand what God was saying. Jesus used simple ideas and concepts to communicate to the people of His day who were mostly uneducated. I think we over complicate the Bible. We must remember it was written to and for the average person.

Hi Clifford,

The Bible is a book for all times, and each generation must interpret it with the knowledge level of the age they live in. Scripture (especially the Old Testament) is full of statements that we know to be wrong, as I brought up in a previous post, so we must use our understanding guided by the Holy Spirit to help us decipher its Truth.

We know its wrong to have slaves and treat women as less than men. We also know that there was a lot of killing of the innocent going on that seems to have been directed by God Himself. We should be able to discern with the help of the Holy Spirit which parts of the Bible are figurative and speaking an eternal truth that can be understood by all generations, from those parts that are literal.




The verses on God's wrath and judgment are right there in the Bible. You can't just ignore them and pretend they don't exist. God does show His mercy to all but not all receive it.

Clifford

It is one thing not to receive freely given mercy, and quite another to create a place of eternal torment and send people there who don't receive your freely given mercy.

Rose

[joel]

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (King James Version)

1 Corinthians 15
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, (A) how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 (B) And that he was buried, and (C) that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
-------------------------------------------

This was the A, B, C's of Paul's Gospel.

Every thing else he wrote is supremely important to complete the understanding of God's wondrous work, just as every word in scripture is part of the unfolding of truth.........but........if we are to herald the gospel, as Paul presented it......stick to the A, B, C's.

It is not....A, B, C,.....plus what happened in 70 AD.
It is not....A, B, C,.....hell for eternity.
It is not....A, B, C,.....Jesus is in Deuteronomy.

If it is ......A, B, C.....and.....the spirit of God bears witness.....the hearer is saved.......and sees Jesus.

Otherwise................they try to understand 70 AD.
.............................they try to grasp an eternal hell.
.............................they go back to Deuteronomy looking for Jesus,.....................and they cannot find Him......just some knowledge that cannot save them.

Joel

[alec cotton]

Gehenna ,tartaroo,Haes and sheol are all metaphors. The blood of Jesus is also a metaphor . Is IT also meaningless or does it mean what I want it to mean and nothing else. Rose agreed with another writer on this forum that hell (being a metaphor) means complete destruction. Oblivion. On another occasion she states that all the souls after death can repent and enter the new Jerusalem , drink of the water of life and live forever. You can't have your cake and eat it. If they are obliterated then they cannot repent. If they are aware then they are in torment. It is clearly stated that there are degrees of punishment in the afterlife. Gospel means 'good news' . Universalism is good news indeed for the mass murderer, The paedophile ,the serial rapist ,the robber , the liar ,the oppressor,the evil doer and the abominable. They will all laugh all the way to the new Jerusalem All these idiots who exercised restraint and sometimes lost their homes and even their lives for the sake of the testimony of Christ are going to the same place. That gospel is music to thei ears of the evildoers. On the other hand the gospel that hell is oblivion is good news to the atheist. He says 'See ,I told you so all the time." When you are dead you are done with. 'Is this what we call another gospel?. Obviously ,the blood of Christ is a metaphor. When he said you must eat my flesh and drink my blood the hearers left him in droves. Joel says 'we are all under the shelter of his blood' That is a metaphor. What is the literal interpretation?.It is simply this:Christ died vicariously in order that we might believe in and on him and turn away from sin. The people who have confidence in him live according to his laws. His laws are the ten commandments. He it was who issued them. I hear it said all the time ,'We are under a new covenant now'. What is the new covenant? . It is this: If you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that god has raised him from the dead you will be saved for with the heart man believes unto righteousness . What is righteousness ? It is living by his (ten ) commandments. Can anyone refute a word of what has been written here or will it be deposited behind the wall of silence?.
Alec

[Rose]

Gehenna ,tartaroo,Haes and sheol are all metaphors. The blood of Jesus is also a metaphor . Is IT also meaningless or does it mean what I want it to mean and nothing else. Rose agreed with another writer on this forum that hell (being a metaphor) means complete destruction. Oblivion. On another occasion she states that all the souls after death can repent and enter the new Jerusalem , drink of the water of life and live forever. You can't have your cake and eat it. If they are obliterated then they cannot repent. If they are aware then they are in torment. It is clearly stated that there are degrees of punishment in the afterlife. Gospel means 'good news' . Universalism is good news indeed for the mass murderer, The paedophile ,the serial rapist ,the robber , the liar ,the oppressor,the evil doer and the abominable. They will all laugh all the way to the new Jerusalem All these idiots who exercised restraint and sometimes lost their homes and even their lives for the sake of the testimony of Christ are going to the same place. That gospel is music to thei ears of the evildoers. On the other hand the gospel that hell is oblivion is good news to the atheist. He says 'See ,I told you so all the time." When you are dead you are done with. 'Is this what we call another gospel?. Obviously ,the blood of Christ is a metaphor. When he said you must eat my flesh and drink my blood the hearers left him in droves. Joel says 'we are all under the shelter of his blood' That is a metaphor. What is the literal interpretation?.It is simply this:Christ died vicariously in order that we might believe in and on him and turn away from sin. The people who have confidence in him live according to his laws. His laws are the ten commandments. He it was who issued them. I hear it said all the time ,'We are under a new covenant now'. What is the new covenant? . It is this: If you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that god has raised him from the dead you will be saved for with the heart man believes unto righteousness . What is righteousness ? It is living by his (ten ) commandments. Can anyone refute a word of what has been written here or will it be deposited behind the wall of silence?.
Alec

Hi Alec,

What about the mass murderer, or the serial rapist, or the robber that repents on deaths door and finds salvation....does he not enter into the gates of New Jerusalem?

Rose

[joel]

So you proclaim
the gospel....the same....
the one which he spoke, Paul, in His name.

Can you not see,
can you not understand,
that the truth given to Paul
was placed in his hand,

to put in his mouth
to feed his soul
to give him the light
to make him whole.

Why do you add,
why subtract
the essence of truth
from His given fact

Christ died for sins
He went to the grave
He arose again, 3 days to save

And they saw
And then they would say
His glorious resurrection
Was our's in that day

We went with Him on His cross,
With Him in His grave,
With Him in His new life,
With Him as raised,

And yet we have raved....
believe this.....be saved,
our truth adds to His......trust me,
I have behaved
exactly how He wants,
and How He directs
the gospel of our happiness.

Joel

[alec cotton]

Hi Alec,

What about the mass murderer, or the serial rapist, or the robber that repents on deaths door and finds salvation....does he not enter into the gates of New Jerusalem?

Rose

That is not a refutation but a sidestep ,normally practised by deceptive minds to avoid the unpalatable truth. A dark grey area is chosen to obscure reality. It is painfully obvious that if a person repents and brings out fruits suitable to repentance then that one will be invited. In that situation there is absolutely no difference between the old covenant and the new. Ezekiel 18:25 onwards Yet you say that the way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now o house of Israel ;is not my way equal? Are not your ways unequal?. When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commiteth iniquity, and dies in them: for his iniquity that he has done he shall die. His destiny? According to the angel in Daniel 12 verse 2; And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.(same word; everlasting) Ezekiel 18:27. Again when the wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and does that which is lawful and right he shall save his soul alive . He will inherit eternal life. Now do not crawl up to the oche with a humped back and toes curled with embarrassment , But stride up to the line , erect with honesty and integrity. The challenge remains ; Refute or concur.
Alec

[Rose]

That is not a refutation but a sidestep ,normally practised by deceptive minds to avoid the unpalatable truth. A dark grey area is chosen to obscure reality. It is painfully obvious that if a person repents and brings out fruits suitable to repentance then that one will be invited. In that situation there is absolutely no difference between the old covenant and the new. Ezekiel 18:25 onwards Yet you say that the way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now o house of Israel ;is not my way equal? Are not your ways unequal?. When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commiteth iniquity, and dies in them: for his iniquity that he has done he shall die. His destiny? According to the angel in Daniel 12 verse 2; And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.(same word; everlasting) Ezekiel 18:27. Again when the wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and does that which is lawful and right he shall save his soul alive . He will inherit eternal life. Now do not crawl up to the oche with a humped back and toes curled with embarrassment , But stride up to the line , erect with honesty and integrity. The challenge remains ; Refute or concur.
Alec

Hello my friend, :yo:

It is not out of fear for my own salvation that I say the words I do, but rather out of knowing the God I serve. He is a God of everlasting kindness, and eternal mercy not willing that any should perish....and what He wills comes to pass.

What you believe or what I believe will not effect our eternal destiny, but it does make my life much more peaceful and harmonious with the nature of my being and the way God created me. I choose to view God in terms of the parables that Jesus gave us....of the Prodigal Son or the Good Samaritan....that is the way God made me and the way I view Him.

Many blessings,

Rose

[alec cotton]

Sadly ,this must be the end. I was labouring under the delusuon that we were seeking the truth by searching for him who is truth. I thought that we were examining his word in order to follow his directions It is obvious from your last statement that the god that you serve is one which you invented. and his rules are figments of your imagination . In your post there is not the slightest trace of the written word . I found that profoundly disappointing.
Alec

[Gil]

Hi ETD, and all

ETD > Did you intentionally skip verse 2 of chapter 8?.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

"Salvation" is not forgiveness against the law of commandments but forgiveness against the very law of sin (missing the mark) and (spiritual)death inherited from the Garden.

Gil > Yeah I did. I was going to wait until the right place to add it in this discussion.
You are right ,salvation is not for the forgiveness of sin.
I see it as deliverance from the Law .
Sin was made manifest through the Law.
We as Christians have been set free and are not in bondage to the Law.
Where Grace abounds there is no Law to be found.
How can one in Christ ask for forgiveness of sin without sending Jesus back to the cross once again.
In Christ we are found to be innocent and no longer is Guilt to be found in us.

This post was to be about the Gospel but it sure blew of the tracks fast.
The Covenant of Law and the Covenant of Grace are important to understand but as you state :

This is an important question.
"What is the Gospel" ?

As you probably already know it leads right into:
" What is the Christ" ?

Is everyone still on board as to what is the Gospel, or is
it a lost cause?

Gil

[joel]

It seems apparent that if you ask 101 believers what is the gospel?.....you'll get 101 different answers.

Doesn't that stike you as odd?

Paul says that the gospel is the saving message of God........it contains the power to save.

There are not an infinite variety of versions of the saving gospel.

It is good news. It is not good news, plus some bad news, plus an opinion of what God is doing, or has done.

In I Corinthians 15:1-4.....Paul succinctly outlines the saving gospel which he delivered......and....what they believed......and where they stood......provided that they did not leave it..........

If we present a new version, how can we expect people to believe?

Joel

[Rose]

Sadly ,this must be the end. I was labouring under the delusuon that we were seeking the truth by searching for him who is truth. I thought that we were examining his word in order to follow his directions It is obvious from your last statement that the god that you serve is one which you invented. and his rules are figments of your imagination . In your post there is not the slightest trace of the written word . I found that profoundly disappointing.
Alec

Disappointing indeed! I find it extremely disheartening that so many people choose to view God through the callousness of their own minds.

Scripture declares God is good through the mouth of His Son, yet the portrait painted of Him by many is far from good. I choose to view God through the eyes and heart He created in me, not from the doctrines created by men who have used the Bible as a weapon with which to abuse their fellow man.

The Holy Spirit is my witness of God's nature....and that witness is one of love and mercy.

Rose

[Clifford]

Originally Posted by alec cotton
That is not a refutation but a sidestep ,normally practised by deceptive minds to avoid the unpalatable truth. A dark grey area is chosen to obscure reality. It is painfully obvious that if a person repents and brings out fruits suitable to repentance then that one will be invited. In that situation there is absolutely no difference between the old covenant and the new. Ezekiel 18:25 onwards Yet you say that the way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now o house of Israel ;is not my way equal? Are not your ways unequal?. When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commiteth iniquity, and dies in them: for his iniquity that he has done he shall die. His destiny? According to the angel in Daniel 12 verse 2; And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.(same word; everlasting) Ezekiel 18:27. Again when the wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and does that which is lawful and right he shall save his soul alive . He will inherit eternal life. Now do not crawl up to the oche with a humped back and toes curled with embarrassment , But stride up to the line , erect with honesty and integrity. The challenge remains ; Refute or concur.
Alec



Hello my friend, :yo:

It is not out of fear for my own salvation that I say the words I do, but rather out of knowing the God I serve. He is a God of everlasting kindness, and eternal mercy not willing that any should perish....and what He wills comes to pass.

What you believe or what I believe will not effect our eternal destiny, but it does make my life much more peaceful and harmonious with the nature of my being and the way God created me. I choose to view God in terms of the parables that Jesus gave us....of the Prodigal Son or the Good Samaritan....that is the way God made me and the way I view Him.

Many blessings,

Rose

Hi Rose,


I choose to view God in terms of the parables that Jesus gave us....of the Prodigal Son or the Good Samaritan....that is the way God made me and the way I view Him.

It seems like you pick and choose which parables and saying of Jesus and other scripture that you choose to base your theology on and ignore other scripture that doesn't fit just like you did with Alec in his post I quoted above when he quoted Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.(same word; everlasting).

You have done the same when I have quoted scripture that doesn't fit your theology. As it says in 2 Tim 3:16

All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right.

So we have to look at all scripture to get a correct and complete view of God's nature and His ways and how He deals and will deal with mankind.

Clifford

[Clifford]

Disappointing indeed! I find it extremely disheartening that so many people choose to view God through the callousness of their own minds.

Scripture declares God is good through the mouth of His Son, yet the portrait painted of Him by many is far from good. I choose to view God through the eyes and heart He created in me, not from the doctrines created by men who have used the Bible as a weapon with which to abuse their fellow man.

The Holy Spirit is my witness of God's nature....and that witness is one of love and mercy.

Rose

Hi Rose,


I find it extremely disheartening that so many people choose to view God through the callousness of their own minds.

We are just trying to get a complete picture of God by studying what all the scripture have to say. It is not being callous by quoting scripture that deals with God's wrath and judgment. A true student of the Bible must take all the scriptures to get a complete view of God's nature and His ways.


I choose to view God through the eyes and heart He created in me, not from the doctrines created by men who have used the Bible as a weapon with which to abuse their fellow man.

All of our views are our doctrines formed by how we interpret scripture. There are some things in scripture that seem to counterdict each other like God's love and mercy on the one hand and his wrath and judgment on the other hand. It is the job of any serious student of the Bible to try to mesh seemingly counterdictery concepts and form a doctrine that adequately explains them. Not easy at times!

Clifford

[Rose]

Hi Rose,

It seems like you pick and choose which parables and saying of Jesus and other scripture that you choose to base your theology on and ignore other scripture that doesn't fit just like you did with Alec in his post I quoted above when he quoted Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.(same word; everlasting).

You have done the same when I have quoted scripture that doesn't fit your theology. As it says in 2 Tim 3:16

All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right.

So we have to look at all scripture to get a correct and complete view of God's nature and His ways and how He deals and will deal with mankind.

Clifford

Hi Clifford,

Much of the Old Testament gives us a very different picture of God than what Jesus presented to us in the New, so as far as picking and choosing goes I don't need to pick and choose His parables, because the strong theme that runs through many of them is forgiveness, abundant mercy, loving your neighbor, turning the other cheek, and going the extra mile, to name a few.

Jesus was our example of God....so take a good look at His life and you will see God.


Rose