The Three Words for Hell

[Rose]

Gehenna: The Garbage Dump

Gehenna (translated as Hell) was the place outside of the old city of Jerusalem called the Valley of Hinnon where waste was dumped; not only trash and garbage were disposed of there, but also corpses of humans and animals were burnt in the dump. In translating the Bible, the word Gehenna has changed from the meaning of a garbage dump to that of Hell: a place of eternal torment where the souls of unbelievers go.

The word Gehenna, 'Hell' occurs twelve times in the New Testament (listed below). If each time the word Gehenna is used it is replaced by 'Garbage dump', a whole different understanding of what is being said comes into view.

What I see being said in Matthew 5 is the comparison of one part of the fleshly body being corrupted, to that of the whole of the body being corrupted; this can be likened to an infection that if not taken care of will spread to the whole body. Next, Jesus brings the idea of God into the picture as He who is able to destroy both the soul and the fleshly body in Gehenna. The Soul is our conscience selves, that which we shape and form in this life by our actions. I call it Soul Shaping. It is what we take from this life into eternity….if all our actions in this life are for naught and in jeopardy of being burned up in the Garbage Dump, then our lives will have been lived in vain. Much like the works of wood, hay and stubble that will be tried in the fire, spoken of by the Apostle Paul (1Cor.3:12-13 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.).
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Matt. 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna – garbage dump) fire….29) And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell (Gehenna – garbage dump). And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell(Gehenna – garbage dump).

Matt.10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna – garbage dump).

Matt.18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell(Gehenna – garbage dump) fire.

Matt.23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell (Gehenna – garbage dump) than yourselves.

Matt.23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell(Gehenna – garbage dump)?

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell(Gehenna – garbage dump), into the fire that never shall be quenched:…45) And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell(Gehenna – garbage dump),, into the fire that never shall be quenched:…47) And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell (Gehenna – garbage dump), fire:

Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell (Gehenna – garbage dump); yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell (Gehenna – garbage dump).
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Hades: The Grave

The word Hades has been translated eleven times as Hell in the following verses, where they imply that it is a place of eternal torment. Instead of a place of eternal torment, Hades is the Grave which is death; the place where dead bodies go. In the book of Acts where it states that when Jesus died His Soul was not left in the grave and neither did his flesh see corruption, it is clearly speaking of Hell as the 'Grave', that is to say the place where the fleshly body goes after death. The soul on the other hand is the part of us that is shaped by the actions we do in this life, whereas our spirits can be thought of as the spark of life that God breathes into each one of us, or the light that touches each soul that enters into this world (John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.).

Bodies are given us at conception without any choice on our part, whereas our souls can be shaped and formed by our actions giving purpose to our lives….this is what I believe our time on this planet is all about.
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Matt.11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell (Hades – the Grave) for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Matt.16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell (Hades – the Grave) shall not prevail against it.

Luke 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell (Hades – the Grave).

Luke 16:23 And in hell (Hades – the Grave): he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (Hades – the Grave): neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption….31) He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (Hades – the Grave): neither his flesh did see corruption.

1Cor.15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave (Hades – the Grave): where is thy victory?

Rev.1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore Amen; and have the keys of hell (Hades – the Grave) and of death.

Rev.6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell (Hades – the Grave) followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Rev.20:13-14 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (Hades – the Grave) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell (Hades – the Grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
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Tartarus:

Tartarus is used only one time in the Bible as the place where the Angels who sinned are chained until judgment. The Greek philosopher, Plato wrote that souls were judged after death and those who received punishments were sent to Tartarus.
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2Pet.2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (Tartarus), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Excellent post, my dear! :flowers:

The Bible knows nothing of a "hell." It speaks only of the grave and/or the "garbage dump" as the places where the body is disposed.

And worst of all, the word "tartarus" is used once in Scripture so we have no idea what it's Biblical meaning really is. Are we to run off to Greek mythology to learn about the afterlife?

Richard

[Clifford]

Excellent post, my dear! :flowers:

The Bible knows nothing of a "hell." It speaks only of the grave and/or the "garbage dump" as the places where the body is disposed.

And worst of all, the word "tartarus" is used once in Scripture so we have no idea what it's Biblical meaning really is. Are we to run off to Greek mythology to learn about the afterlife?

Richard

Hi Richard,

If Hell is only a place where the body is disposed of why then would I fear it as Jesus taught since I don't care where my body goes after death because it is my spirit and soul that will live forever.

Matt.10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

It plainly says both soul and body in hell. If hell is only the place where the body goes why was the rich man in Luke 16:23 suffering torment since his body would be dead?

I think Jesus compared hell to Gehenna since it was something the people who He was talking to could grasp how horrible a place it was since they were familiar with that place instead of describing it as an abstract concept.

Clifford

[Rose]

Hi Richard,

If Hell is only a place where the body is disposed of why then would I fear it as Jesus taught since I don't care where my body goes after death because it is my spirit and soul that will live forever.

Matt.10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

It plainly says both soul and body in hell. If hell is only the place where the body goes why was the rich man in Luke 16:23 suffering torment since his body would be dead?

I think Jesus compared hell to Gehenna since it was something the people who He was talking to could grasp how horrible a place it was since they were familiar with that place instead of describing it as an abstract concept.

Clifford

Hi Clifford,

Jesus didn't compare hell to the garbage dump, but rather the garbage dump was hell, Gehenna. Matt.10:28 should read "fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in the garbage dump". When one thinks about what a garbage dump really is - it is not a place of eternal torment, but rather a place where trash (things that are of no use) is burned up. As Paul points out in Corinthians it's man's useless work that shall be destroyed by the fire of the garbage dump.
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1Cor.3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
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In this life the works we do is what shapes our souls for eternity - if those works are built upon a foundation of wood, hay, and stubble, then those works shall be destroyed. If a mans life consists of nothing but wood, hay, and stubble, then at the end of his life when his body decays back into the ground into nothingness, the soul will also be consumed in fire - all that will remain is his spirit.


Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,

If Hell is only a place where the body is disposed of why then would I fear it as Jesus taught since I don't care where my body goes after death because it is my spirit and soul that will live forever.

Matt.10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

It plainly says both soul and body in hell. If hell is only the place where the body goes why was the rich man in Luke 16:23 suffering torment since his body would be dead?

I think Jesus compared hell to Gehenna since it was something the people who He was talking to could grasp how horrible a place it was since they were familiar with that place instead of describing it as an abstract concept.

Clifford
Hi Clifford,

Yes, I think that the consequence/punishment for unrepentant sin will be horrible - but that does not mean it will be an everlasting torture chamber run by an absolutely evil demon-god.

Gehenna (hell) was the garbage dump where garbage was annihilated in the fires that burned continuously. With this understanding, it seems that Christ is saying that unrepentant sinners are annihilated after death. This was a position I explored for a while, but I think a better answer is that the "fires" are intended to bring the soul to repentance since this is God's ultimate will. Yes, God certainly has the "power" to destroy But I don't think anyone really knows, so it's a matter of personal opinion.

But I find it very interesting that you seem to believe that your "spirit and soul will live forever." That is a Greek concept - Plato taught that nature immortality of the soul. It is contrary to the Bible which teaches that God alone has immortality - his creatures (us) have only conditional immortality like Adam and Eve in the Garden. They lived as long as they were in communion with God. They died only after begin kicked out of the Garden and kept from the Tree of Life (Christ).

There are a lot of concepts that need to be reviewed. Natural immortality is one of the most important. The Bible does not say that everyone will live forever, some in heaven and some in hell! The Bible says that life is found only in Christ. Outside of Christ is death, not eternal life in misery.

Richard

[alec cotton]

Greetings Clifford
I am sure that you won't mind if I tag along. What you have just said plucks a chord in me. For a long time I have realised that the warning is sombre. The reason that Jesus used the words and metaphors he did is quite plain He clearly said to the people : 'If I speak to you of earthly things and you do not understand ,then how would you know if I spoke of heavenly things?.' If for instance ( and I know I am being stupid) He had said that the square root of minus one does not exist but it is used successfully as an operator anyway : they wouldn't have a clue what he was talking about. The people at that time were well aware of the Greek concept of punishment in the afterlife And that tartaroo was the seventh and and lowest place of torment in the underworld. They were familiar with the word 'Hades '. It did not mean ,the grave ,or the sepulchre,or the tomb. It meant the unseen state. When he mentioned Gehenna they knew instantly what he meant. It was the location outside Jerusalem where the refuse and filth of the city was burned. The site where in ancient times the women slaughtered their own children ,roasted them and ate them as a sacrifice to hinnom. And when he said that their worms never die , the point was not wasted. Fire and brimstone were every day objects so he used them too. There is something terrifying out there to be avoided and there is something desirable in the future to be embraced.
Of that I am convinced to the very core of my being.
Alec

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Greetings Clifford
I am sure that you won't mind if I tag along. What you have just said plucks a chord in me. For a long time I have realised that the warning is sombre. The reason that Jesus used the words and metaphors he did is quite plain He clearly said to the people : 'If I speak to you of earthly things and you do not understand ,then how would you know if I spoke of heavenly things?.' If for instance ( and I know I am being stupid) He had said that the square root of minus one does not exist but it is used successfully as an operator anyway : they wouldn't have a clue what he was talking about. The people at that time were well aware of the Greek concept of punishment in the afterlife And that tartaroo was the seventh and and lowest place of torment in the underworld. They were familiar with the word 'Hades '. It did not mean ,the grave ,or the sepulchre,or the tomb. It meant the unseen state.

Hey there Alec,

I am glad you are tagging along with this conversation. And I love your mention of the imaginary number sqrt(-1)! Lovely! Makes me feel like I'm chatting with a bunch of mathematical egghead theological geniuses. Just my cup of tea! :tea:

And before we leave that topic, here is the most beautiful mathematical equation that has ever been written:

http://www.biblewheel.com/images/eulers_identity.png

Such elegance and simplicity revealing the intrinsic connection between Unity (1) and base of the natural logarithm (e) and the fundamental geometric constant pi and the imaginary number! Wow! That's like the divine revelation.

So anyway, getting back to the topic at hand ... I'm glad that we agree that Jesus was using metaphors when he spoke of hades and gehenna. I agree that hades literally means "unseen." But it also was used to denote the grave. We know this because when the Jews translated the OT into the Greek LXX, they almost always used the word "hades" for "sheol" which literally means "grave." But sheol also was used to denote the "underworld" or the "realm of the dead" that was supposed to be a literal place deep under the earth. But I are we supposed to import that ancient Hebrew mythology into our understanding of God's truth? I mean, are we supposed to believe that there is literally a "realm of the dead" that is literally "under the earth?" And how much of the GREEK MYTHOLOGY are we supposed to import into our Biblical worldview? Are we supposed to agree with the pagan Greeks that there is a literal place called "tartarus" that is "the seventh and and lowest place of torment in the underworld?" I think not. I am guessing that all we are supposed to get from the reference to tartarus is that there is a dark place in the afterlife for unrepentant sinners. We are not supposed to import any of the other concepts like the real existence of the "gods" Pluto, and Zeus, and Athena, and all that. Right? And what about the Greek philosophical concept of "natural immortality" that is required if we are going to believe that sinners "live forever" in hell? Is that not a contradiction to the primary Biblical doctrine that only believers will "live forever?" Death is the fate of the unbelievers - not "eternal life in a lousy place."



When he mentioned Gehenna they knew instantly what he meant. It was the location outside Jerusalem where the refuse and filth of the city was burned. The site where in ancient times the women slaughtered their own children ,roasted them and ate them as a sacrifice to hinnom. And when he said that their worms never die , the point was not wasted. Fire and brimstone were every day objects so he used them too. There is something terrifying out there to be avoided and there is something desirable in the future to be embraced.
Of that I am convinced to the very core of my being.
Alec

I agree that there is something terrible to be avoided. But I disagree that God is going to impose that terror on his creatures against their will forever and ever and ever and ever ....

[alec cotton]

Hello Richard, Clifford ,Rose , Old Uncle Old Tom Cobley and all. A pleasure to be in your company To Richard I say : 'That is a beautiful equation that you presented. I think that I will have it framed'. I might as well becase there is nothing else I can do with it I can't use it solve it or understand it. You see I left school at the age of fourteen with only a basic education . And I mean basic. I thought a decimal point was somebody giving direction with one finger. For quite a few years I tried to figure out the square root of minus one . Then one day I read in a book that it cannot be done. I heard a man say ' nothing is impossible '. The answer came back: 'Try to strke a match on a bar of wet soap'. It was once thought impossible to express zero as a cipher. The reasoning was that if you wrote nothing down ,there woud be nothing there. It was a gentleman from the continent of India who solved the problem. He had just solved an equation and the answer was Zilch,nil,zero. He was unable to put it on paper and as he stared at it he felt a bit peckish and went to the cupboard for something to eat. He did not like duck eggs but all he found in the cupboard was a duck egg. He said to himself ,'That is nothing'. That was his eureka moment. He went back to the drawing board and drew a duck egg and said 'That is nothing. 'That is how the zero was born I ramble a bit at times . It's my age you know. Where was I ? . Oh! , Hell, Yes I remember now. This one has always puzzled me; 1PETER 3:19 By which (spirit) also he went and preached to the spirits in prison ;which were sometime disobedient in the time of Noah. A few years ago someone sent a poem to the London Daily Mail. It went like this: The voice that whispered in my ear in urgent tones precise and clear ,said God is hate and God is war ,and God wants blood so make it pour.And if you sacrifice your life and leave behind your child,your wife. You'll gain for all eternity a place in paradise ,trust me. I packed explosives in a car, parked and waited near a bar. Then watched the strangers milling round scream while thunder shook the ground. Devastation everywhere ,broken bodies lying there . .I'd brought them war I'd brought them hate and won the prize of heavens gate; But heavens gate I could not find .Confusion ,panic gripped my mind. I searched and searched , but all I found was one vast portal underground. The devil opened up the door . I saw a hundred souls or more ,seated noun a fiery room : their faces wreathed in pain and gloom Meet my bombers Satan cried , mine was the voice , the voice that lied. Join the dupes whose souls I've won :deluded fools every one I think that wraps it up.
Alec.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hello Richard, Clifford ,Rose , Old Uncle Old Tom Cobley and all. A pleasure to be in your company To Richard I say : 'That is a beautiful equation that you presented. I think that I will have it framed'. I might as well becase there is nothing else I can do with it I can't use it solve it or understand it. You see I left school at the age of fourteen with only a basic education . And I mean basic. I thought a decimal point was somebody giving direction with one finger. For quite a few years I tried to figure out the square root of minus one . Then one day I read in a book that it cannot be done. I heard a man say ' nothing is impossible '. The answer came back: 'Try to strke a match on a bar of wet soap'. It was once thought impossible to express zero as a cipher. The reasoning was that if you wrote nothing down ,there woud be nothing there. It was a gentleman from the continent of India who solved the problem. He had just solved an equation and the answer was Zilch,nil,zero. He was unable to put it on paper and as he stared at it he felt a bit peckish and went to the cupboard for something to eat. He did not like duck eggs but all he found in the cupboard was a duck egg. He said to himself ,'That is nothing'. That was his eureka moment. He went back to the drawing board and drew a duck egg and said 'That is nothing. 'That is how the zero was born I ramble a bit at times . It's my age you know. Where was I ? .

Beautiful intro my friend! :thumb:



Oh! , Hell, Yes I remember now. This one has always puzzled me; 1PETER 3:19 By which (spirit) also he went and preached to the spirits in prison ;which were sometime disobedient in the time of Noah. A few years ago someone sent a poem to the London Daily Mail. It went like this: The voice that whispered in my ear in urgent tones precise and clear ,said God is hate and God is war ,and God wants blood so make it pour.And if you sacrifice your life and leave behind your child,your wife. You'll gain for all eternity a place in paradise ,trust me. I packed explosives in a car, parked and waited near a bar. Then watched the strangers milling round scream while thunder shook the ground. Devastation everywhere ,broken bodies lying there . .I'd brought them war I'd brought them hate and won the prize of heavens gate; But heavens gate I could not find .Confusion ,panic gripped my mind. I searched and searched , but all I found was one vast portal underground. The devil opened up the door . I saw a hundred souls or more ,seated noun a fiery room : their faces wreathed in pain and gloom Meet my bombers Satan cried , mine was the voice , the voice that lied. Join the dupes whose souls I've won :deluded fools every one I think that wraps it up.
Alec.
That passage still puzzles me too. As far as I know, no one has any certainty about how to interpret it.

But it does seem a little strange that God would create absolutely ignorant creatures such as us humans, creatures so weak-minded and gullible that we often believe what ever we are told, especially lies told by the ultimate supernatural deceiver - the Devil himself - and then God sends us off to everlasting conscious torment in the clutches of that criminal deceiver forever and ever with no hope of any redemption???!!!??? What kind of "god" would do that? What does he accomplish by allowing Satan to capture weak-minded ignorant souls born into the darkness of this fallen world? He knows that the devil would find many easy victims because no man can save himself, and the Gospel was not ever preached to most people who have lived, and if there is no hope after death for redemption, then most people who have ever lived have been captured by the devil and will suffer eternally and God will never reconcile the world to himself and he will never overcome evil and so his creation will be eternally deformed by the eternal presence of evil, evil, evil - NEVER ENDING EVIL!!!! It NEVER ENDS ....

It NEVER ENDS. ETERNAL TORMENT NEVER ENDS!!!

It NEVER ENDS. ETERNAL TORMENT NEVER ENDS!!!

It NEVER ENDS. ETERNAL TORMENT NEVER ENDS!!!

It NEVER ENDS. ETERNAL TORMENT NEVER ENDS!!!

It NEVER ENDS. ETERNAL TORMENT NEVER ENDS!!!

It NEVER ENDS. ETERNAL TORMENT NEVER ENDS!!!

It NEVER ENDS. ETERNAL TORMENT NEVER ENDS!!!

It NEVER ENDS. ETERNAL TORMENT NEVER ENDS!!!

PAIN!!! SUFFERING!!! AGONY!!! FOREVER AND EVER and GOD can't (or won't) do anything about it!

UGLY DEATH DESTRUCTION CORRUPTION NEVER ENDING HATRED!!!

IT NEVER ENDS!!! DEATH IS VICTORIOUS!

GOD LOSES his battle with Satan. Satan successfully destroyed the goodness of God's creation, and God will never fix it! Never!

EVIL LIVES FOREVER!

Is this the Gospel?

Richard

[Mad Mick]

Come on man, why do you question God for what is revealed as mans clear choice.

Yes torment and suffering is for as long as it takes Fools to REPENT!

An eternity if necessary!

I thank God for that!

Resurrected dead boy (Mick)

PS. It is impossible for Satan to win against God, for he is Gods creation.
This suffering is according to our lords good plan.
No PAIN No GAIN.
We have heard it a million times, why can't we accept it like real men!
Take it on the chin and get thick skin!

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Come on man, why do you question God for what is revealed as mans clear choice.

Man's clear choice? What man would choose eternal conscious torment? The doctrine is that God imposes this on people who don't obey his rules.



Yes torment and suffering is for as long as it takes Fools to REPENT!

An eternity if necessary!

I thank God for that!

That's a wonderful concept! Hell is designed to help people repent. And when they do, they enter into God's paradise.



PS. It is impossible for Satan to win against God, for he is Gods creation.

I agree that it is impossible for Satan to win against God. That is how we know that there will be no eternal evil which contradicts the doctrine of eternal conscious torment.

Richard

[alec cotton]

As I said in a previous post : When I left school at the age of 14 I was as thick as elephant excrement .I hear some people say , Was?. What's new.? I think that I have matured somewhat since then. I do not accept the image of old nick with horns and a forked tail and a trident : stoking the fires of hell with rock sulphur. I think of hell as a place of isolation of the soul where the most prevalent thought is ' if only' Those are the two saddest words in the English language. If only. When we sin we may well be forgiven but the consequences often remain We may be pardoned but regrets often linger .I do not envisage God as a great big giant in the sky with a big stick to pulverize the wicked. I do not think of God as a father Christmas figure on a great big throne up in the sky with a goody bag : Handing out presents and favours to the well deserving. I am convinced that he is all powerful, all seeing , all knowing : the spirit , the essence of goodness in this world , urging me, encouraging me to make this world a more comfortable ,pleasanter ,safer place for his beloved people to live in. On the other hand I believe that Satan is also a spirit . Somewhat inferior but extremely influential ,rotten to the core. I don't care if he is reading this . It is true. In between we have that most precious gift ,The Bible to instruct ,to guide and to lead us to the right path.
Just imagine , If ALL the people in one country obeyed just ONE of the ten commandments ; What a difference that would make to that country. For instance ,If every person was determined not to steal, the prisons would be half full and the economy would improve by at least 25%. If the world would obey the one commandment ' You must not covet ' then all wars would cease. Righteousness exalts a nation. Sin is a reproach to any people. When the righteous rule the people rejoice.
Alec

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Just imagine , If ALL the people in one country obeyed just ONE of the ten commandments ; What a difference that would make to that country. For instance ,If every person was determined not to steal, the prisons would be half full and the economy would improve by at least 25%. If the world would obey the one commandment ' You must not covet ' then all wars would cease. Righteousness exalts a nation. Sin is a reproach to any people. When the righteous rule the people rejoice.
Alec
Actually Alec, we need only add one more commandment to achieve world peace and heaven on earth!

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
That's it! Love God and your neighbor, and then live free in Christ. Forget those silly little rules -

Q: What does a true believer say when you tell him "Thou shalt not steal?"

A: DUH! Tell me something that wasn't already written on my heart by the Spirit of God!

Throw out the dead written law of sin and live by the royal law of freedom in the Spirit of God. Those who have died in Christ have died to the law.

Richard

[alec cotton]

I am well aware of Matt 22:36 and I am not shocked by your reply. A little bit saddened maybe. I have come to expect just such a response as standard.
Your words put the lie to themselves. You said 'That's it . Love God and your neighbour and forget those silly little rules. ' You must love your neighbour as much as you love yourself ' IS one of those silly little rules. The ten commandments were set in stone. They are permanent and unalterable . The rest of the Torah was subject to slight amendment, but not the ten . God dictated the Torah to Moses and he in turn spoke the words to the people . I have no doubt whatsoever that he then committed the words to papyrus or vellum. God then recalled Moses and Gave him the ten commandments set in stone written by his own hand.. Surely , the significance of that is not lost on you?. And yet you dismiss it as a set of silly little rules. By the way ,for what it is worth ,I believe that those fragments are still there where they fell.My post was an act of worship. My whole point was that the ten commandments are so magnificent that if mankind was to so much as nibble a crumb that the benefits accrued would be enormous. You quote Matthew ' love your neighbour as yourself and thus fulfil the whole law' . It rolls of the tongue so easily but to put into practice needs an herculean effort and a heart like a lion to bear it. For instance: if you loved all children with the same passion and tenderness that you love your own , the burden would be unbearable knowing the vast amount of cruelty and suffering that is going on all round you. The generally accepted teaching is that Jesus comes into your heart and everything in the garden is lovely . Just believe in him and sit back and relax and let it all hang out and everything will be fine. WRONG. Jesus said 'He that endures to the end shall be saved. He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy' Again 'He who puts his hand to the plough and looks back is not worthy of me. The commandments are just that . Not suggestions or guidelines but laws , orders which must be obeyed. At all times . Simmer down now . Watch your blood pressure.
Alec

[onlygrace]

I am well aware of Matt 22:36 and I am not shocked by your reply. A little bit saddened maybe. I have come to expect just such a response as standard.
Your words put the lie to themselves. You said 'That's it . Love God and your neighbour and forget those silly little rules. ' You must love your neighbour as much as you love yourself ' IS one of those silly little rules. The ten commandments were set in stone. They are permanent and unalterable . The rest of the Torah was subject to slight amendment, but not the ten . God dictated the Torah to Moses and he in turn spoke the words to the people . I have no doubt whatsoever that he then committed the words to papyrus or vellum. God then recalled Moses and Gave him the ten commandments set in stone written by his own hand.. Surely , the significance of that is not lost on you?. And yet you dismiss it as a set of silly little rules. By the way ,for what it is worth ,I believe that those fragments are still there where they fell.My post was an act of worship. My whole point was that the ten commandments are so magnificent that if mankind was to so much as nibble a crumb that the benefits accrued would be enormous. You quote Matthew ' love your neighbour as yourself and thus fulfil the whole law' . It rolls of the tongue so easily but to put into practice needs an herculean effort and a heart like a lion to bear it. For instance: if you loved all children with the same passion and tenderness that you love your own , the burden would be unbearable knowing the vast amount of cruelty and suffering that is going on all round you. The generally accepted teaching is that Jesus comes into your heart and everything in the garden is lovely . Just believe in him and sit back and relax and let it all hang out and everything will be fine. WRONG. Jesus said 'He that endures to the end shall be saved. He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy' Again 'He who puts his hand to the plough and looks back is not worthy of me. The commandments are just that . Not suggestions or guidelines but laws , orders which must be obeyed. At all times . Simmer down now . Watch your blood pressure.
Alec
Alec, I very rarely post in threads and never have in this forum but I had to respond especially the portions I highlighted in red. I think RAM's point is lost on you about Matthew 22:36-40. If you love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and your neighbor as yourself, the rest of the commandments just come naturally. If you love your neighbor as yourself, you won't commit false witness against him, if you love your neighbor as yourself, you won't kill him, ect.,ect. See what I mean? That is why all the law and the prophets hang upon these two commandments. It really is that simple. JMHO.:winking0071:

[CandF]

Beautiful intro my friend! :thumb:


That passage still puzzles me too. As far as I know, no one has any certainty about how to interpret it.

But it does seem a little strange that God would create absolutely ignorant creatures such as us humans, creatures so weak-minded and gullible that we often believe what ever we are told, especially lies told by the ultimate supernatural deceiver - the Devil himself -

RAM I have read several of your posts and must have caught you on a bad day here. Sure hope you are feeling better about things now that time has passed but still felt compelled to write on this one. I am pretty sure you know all this too...but maybe as a reminder, or to others reading this.

No one is made to remain ignorant and no one has to lack wisdom and understanding. But people say they want to know and then turn to everyone and everything EXCEPT YHWH. He warns us repeatadly to come to Him because He is a jealous El. Even if we ask YHWH but then turn to our pastor/elder/preacher/teacher, books etc., instead of listening and searching out the answer with YHWH then we are double minded and He tells us we will NOT receive anything then.


(Jas 1:5-8) If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of YHWH, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of YHWH. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

If we don't even have the faith to let YHWH be our teacher, but turn to others instead, then do we have any faith at all? And I think you nailed it when you said we aren't smart enough to discern what we are told...that is the whole point. The enemy is crafty...crafty enough to possibly deceive even the elect...we can't think to know more than him or to discern which person has which spirit. So we MUST turn to YHWH to get the right info. Plus He is willing to give wisdom, even eternal life, to those who are willing to turn to Him.


(Jas 4:7-8) Submit yourselves therefore to YHWH. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to YHWH, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

These people that are blotted out of the book are not by chance...they made the choice. They turned there backs on YHWH when they turned to someone/something else.

The second part I would like to mention on here is that YHWH tempts no one. We are each tempted by our own lust.

Jas 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of YHWH: for YHWH cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

One may argue, He gave me the ability to think/desire/lust. And as we turn to YHWH then we will grow closer to Him and our desires will align with His and those things He hates we too will hate. But it all starts with choosing to turn to YHWH.

(Deu 4:30-31) When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to YHWH thy Elohim, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; (For YHWH thy Elohim is a merciful El;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

[CandF]

OOOOOOPPPPs

I just posted that last post, but it was wayyyyy late in the conversation. I missed reading the 2nd page and thought I was at the end when I had really only gotten to the bottom of the 1st page. Sorry will watch the page numbers better next time.

Funny little thing though...I didn't put that little blue smiley face on there! It is written into the text in vs 31, thought that was humorous.

YHWH giving us a smile as His words remind us of His mercy.