Women of Faith

[Rose]

There is a prominent teaching among some Fundamentalist Christians stating that women are in a subordinate position to men in the Church, thus relegating women to a place of only receiving instruction from men, and being unable to give teaching to a man. I would like to counter that teaching with some examples from the Bible where God explicitly chose women to carry out His will….speaking directly to these women without using men as “go betweens”, and using those women to affect the lives of men, thus being their teachers.

The most outstanding examples are manifest in the three women who were in the direct lineage of Christ. First, I will start with the harlot Rahab, whose name in Hebrew means “wide or large”. God spoke to Rahab to hide the spies sent out by Joshua. This woman of ill reputation to whom God spoke to without the intercession of a man, became the wife of Salmon….
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Rahab:
Josh.2: 1-4 And Joshua the son of Nun sent out of Shittim two men to spy secretly, saying, Go view the land, even Jericho. And they went, and came into an harlot's house, named Rahab, and lodged there. And it was told the king of Jericho, saying, Behold, there came men in hither to night of the children of Israel to search out the country. And the king of Jericho sent unto Rahab, saying, Bring forth the men that are come to thee, which are entered into thine house: for they be come to search out all the country. And the woman took the two men, and hid them, and said thus, There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were:…9)And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.

Heb.11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
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….and Salmon, who married the harlot Rahab was the father of Boaz, who became the husband of Ruth.
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Ruth:
Ruth 4:13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the LORD gave her conception, and she bare a son.
Ruth 4:21-22 And Salmon begat Boaz, and Boaz begat Obed, And Obed begat Jesse, and Jesse begat David.

Mat.1:5 And Salmon begat Boaz of Rachab; and Boaz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
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Ruth, whose Hebrew name means “Friendship”, was the daughter-in-law of Naomi. Once again, we see a woman (Ruth) directly guided by God (without the intervention of a man) causing her to return with her Mother-in-law Naomi, to Naomi’s home town of Bethlehem. While living in Bethlehem, Naomi guides Ruth to meet with her dead husbands relative Boaz. Ruth marries Boaz and bears him a child whose name is Obed. Obed was the Grandfather of King David, whose lineage leads to Mary the Mother of Jesus.
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Mary:
Luke 1:26-32 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
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Mary, the Mother of Jesus (in the lineage of King David) was directly contacted by the angel Gabriel who was sent from God (again without the intervention of a man), and told she would bear a child named Jesus who would sit on the throne of His father David.

From the three examples I have given, one can explicitly see God’s direct line of communication to these Women of Faith, whose lives changed the world by their obedience to Him. Since God did not deem it necessary for these women to first get approval from men in order for them to carry out His calling in their lives, neither do I see the need for women to first get approval from men in the Church before they can teach men what God has put on their hearts, whether it be prophecy or knowledge….of course if a man is unwilling to be taught by a woman, it is his loss.
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Proverbs 31:26 She opens her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.

Exo.15:20 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.

Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Luke 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


Rose

[Mad Mick]

Rose, what immediatly came to mind was in Judges 4:9 Where Deborah prophesies that Barak will not get the Honour, instead a woman Jael drives a Peg through Sisera's temple and was honoured above Israels General.

On the subject of Women in the bible, I was researching Jesus' Genealogy in Matthew during this I noticed 5 women that were mentioned, It was significant at the time for the study brought me to that scripture regarding the missing three kings and a 1:4 or 4:1~5 repeating numerology which accompanied the subject. I'm finally going to post it soon in the "7 fold Bible canon . ." Thread posted by Victor in the "Bible Wheel" Section.

The symmetry between all five is very interesting.
God bless you and your family.
Mick

PS. It just came to mind that Hillary Clinton has been responsible for a lot of International negotiation, no doubt because of her post. Here in Australia and no doubt the rest of the world She seems to be getting much more media exposure than Barak Obama, since we don't get as much US national news as you do. I wouldn't be surprised if history repeats itself, for Barak is definatley not a common name for a western leader by a long shot!

[Rose]

*
Matt.28:5-10 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you. And they departed quickly from the sepulcher with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word. And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.

Mark 16:19 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Luke 24:10-11 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

John 20:16-18 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
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From the above verses, what clearly shines forth is that women were the first ones to spread the Good News of the Risen Lord. The Son of God exclusively chose women (some which were looked upon as being defiled) to appear to first - and be the ones to deliver the message to the Disciples of His resurrection….which at first they did not believe. These Women were also the first ones to bow at the feet of Jesus and worship Him, making them the first ones to gather together with Him after His resurrection.
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Acts 1:13-14 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
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Another point to note takes place before Pentecost, when the followers of Jesus were told to wait for the Promise of the Holy Spirit….all those mentioned in the Upper Room including 'the Women' were said to be in 'one accord'; meaning to be of equal standing in their faith. The Church began with people meeting in the homes of believers, making no differentiation between men or women. The evidence is clear – God treats men and women equally, despite the fact that many men think otherwise and take every opportunity to try and dominate women and cheat them out of positions in the Church. It is time for Women of Faith to rise up and walk in their God given potential, declaring from Scripture their equal standing with men, and refusing to take a second place position. If women must leave the institutionalized church to make that point – so be it.


Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

You go girl~!

PS: Rose has this posted on her blog here (http://godandbutterfly.net/?p=764).

[kathryn]

Thanks Rose! I've enjoyed reading your blog as well. If you have a moment, this is also a great look at the subject from the perspective of the New Covenant marriage:
http://gods-kingdom-ministries.org/COLDFUSION/Chapter.cfm?CID=77

[joel]

1 Timothy 2:11-12 (New International Version)

11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
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How do you see these verses?

They seem to be very clear.

Joel

[kathryn]

Good question Joel. Please , if you have time, have a look at the site I sent a few posts above. It explains how we move from the Hagar(bondwoman)/Abram relationship into the Sarah/Abraham, in the New Covenant. It should eliminate what seems to be a contradiction in Scripture. The "2nd" day was a transitional time into the "3rd" and full redemption, and therefore only expresses a part of the full picture. Sorry to pass it off on a link, but it is such a sensitive subject and it explains it far more eloquently than I could.

[Rose]

1 Timothy 2:11-12 (New International Version)

11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
-----------------------------------------------------

How do you see these verses?

They seem to be very clear.

Joel

Hi Joel,

Good question. These verses have been abused and misused by men throughout Church history to try and keep women from fulfilling their full potential as equal human beings.
1Tim.2:7-12 Where unto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Notice the words I highlighted in red...Paul is identifying himself as the author of those opinions - they are not to be taken as commands from God - though that is how many men interpret them. Paul was writing to Timothy and giving him advice, probably concerning problems that were happening in a particular church. To take those verses otherwise is in error, or should women quit braiding their hair, and wearing jewelry? Of course, that is how many men have interpreted those verses.

In reading through the Gospels, never once do we read of Jesus treating women with anything other than total equality, whereas Paul was a man who taught people the great revelations he received from God - nevertheless he was still just a man with his own opinions....many of them being formed from the time in which he lived.

Here is a link to an article (http://kerussocharis.blogspot.com/2007/01/sheri-klouda-gender-discrimination_17.html)about what happens when men use the Bible to abuse women.


Rose

[joel]

I asked a very simple question.

Please don't send me to a link....or to some other place........

please answer the simple question;

If Paul, the apostle to the gentiles......said that a woman is not to teach......what does that mean.....to you......not......some one else's opinion, or,....the interpretation of a current meaning based on some more modern opinion on what it says........

What does it say???......to you......as a woman......who is under the supervision of a man????

1st thing.....what man is your spiritual authority???

Rose has Richard.

How about you, Kathryn??

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

What does it say???......to you......as a woman......who is under the supervision of a man????

1st thing.....what man is your spiritual authority???

Rose has Richard.

Funny thing ... I never have thought of myself as Rose's "spiritual authority."

I understand that ancient archaic sexist cultures - and the Southern Baptists - believe that men are to have "authority" over a woman. Indeed, woman were always under the thumb of a man. First under the father, then under the husband.

I do not believe any person should be under the authority of another person in spiritual matters. No man stands in authority over me, and no man should stand in authority over any woman.

That's what I actually believe. How this relates to the teachings of the Bible is a matter to be determined. I have not seriously dealt with how to interpret those verses.

Richard

[Rose]

I asked a very simple question.

Please don't send me to a link....or to some other place........

please answer the simple question;

If Paul, the apostle to the gentiles......said that a woman is not to teach......what does that mean.....to you......not......some one else's opinion, or,....the interpretation of a current meaning based on some more modern opinion on what it says........

What does it say???......to you......as a woman......who is under the supervision of a man????

1st thing.....what man is your spiritual authority???

Rose has Richard.

How about you, Kathryn??

Joel

Hi Joel,

I assume that your post was directed at Kathryn, since I did answer your question, but let me elaborate further since you made the statement that Richard is my spiritual authority.

No man is my spiritual authority. Richard, is my husband and we are one flesh in marriage, because his gender is male does not make him my authority. I, as a woman who believes in Christ am equally filled with the Holy Spirit as is any man is who believes in Christ. The Holy Spirit, whom Jesus sent from the Father is my teacher. I do not need a man as a go between to be taught of God.

Rose

[joel]

Rose,

I respect your opinion......but,....I do not necessarily agree with it.

God has put in place an order.......an heirarchy.....an authority. It is His doing.

Do you believe that in the order of things.....there is no difference between the Husband and the Wife?

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Rose,

I respect your opinion......but,....I do not necessarily agree with it.

God has put in place an order.......an heirarchy.....an authority. It is His doing.

Do you believe that in the order of things.....there is no difference between the Husband and the Wife?

Joel
Hi Joel,

I'll share my view while you are chatting with Rose. (She'll be answering for herself soon.)

Personally, I do not believe there is any "hierarchy" of "authority" between humans and God. Each person stands naked before God with no human mediator. (Obviously, I'm not talking about Christ as Mediator.)

Are you saying that a woman approaches God through her husband? What if he's an unbeliever?

Richard

[Rose]

Rose,

I respect your opinion......but,....I do not necessarily agree with it.

God has put in place an order.......an heirarchy.....an authority. It is His doing.

Do you believe that in the order of things.....there is no difference between the Husband and the Wife?

Joel

Hi Joel,

Just because there is an order to things does not make one to be in authority over another. Yes, there is a difference between a Husband and a Wife, but it is not in who has authority over who. God created male and female with equal capacities to be taught of Him and equal desires to seek Him. God would not have given women the desire and ability to know Him personally if we needed a man to guide us.


Rose

[joel]

God would not have given women the desire and ability to know Him personally if we needed a man to guide us.



I am not addressing the amount of "desire" or the degree of desire....in that.....there is no doubt as to your desire.....and ability to know God.....that is not the question.

The question centers on rule.....dominion....authority.....it is not we (he) vs. them (she) mentality......it is......man and woman working in harmony with God...........so that rule and authority can be attained by them (male and female)......over all of the other animals.......even unto the creeping reptiles....ie...the serpent.

Why do you think the adversary first approached the woman?

Joel

[Rose]

I am not addressing the amount of "desire" or the degree of desire....in that.....there is no doubt as to your desire.....and ability to know God.....that is not the question.

The question centers on rule.....dominion....authority.....it is not we (he) vs. them (she) mentality......it is......man and woman working in harmony with God...........so that rule and authority can be attained by them (male and female)......over all of the other animals.......even unto the creeping reptiles....ie...the serpent.

Why do you think the adversary first approached the woman?

Joel

The reason the serpent approached the woman first is because she had a God given desire for wisdom...:winking0071:

And as far as rule, dominion, and authority goes....Jesus Christ won the victory over sin and death, and He alone is the only rule, dominion and authority that I need be concerned with.

Rose

[kathryn]

Joel...to tell you the truth, I am bone weary with answering this question, which is the other reason I sent the link. It's been my experience that men who still ask it, have not genuinely sought the Lord's heart in the matter and have no interest in a serious discussion. If you really want to know what I believe, please read the link. It expresses it perfectly and it is scriptural. I will happily discuss this topic with you after you've read it.

[joel]

Kathryn......can you state, in a simple manner, what you mean by;
"a contradiction in scripture". Such a "contradiction in scripture" that you seem to be asserting must lie at the heart of your understanding.

I don't really want to go into someone else's teaching on this extremely important matter as I am not having a discussion with "someone else".

What is the contradiction?

Joel

[kathryn]

Hi Joel....I see that you have already taken my words out of context, and then judged my heart on the matter before a discussion between us has even taken place. Can you see why I might be weary?
If this subject is as important to you as you claim, then read the link. It will go a long way in showing me if it's important enough to read something through and think about it, before you respond. It may be someone elses writing, but it is my understanding as well so you can read it as coming straight from the horses mouth:). I have the feeling you just want to argue your point of view...but I hope I'm mistaken.

[Rose]

I'm sorry to have to say this Joel, but it is because of men like you misinterpreting the Bible that women have had to struggle for every right they've gained. Wouldn't it be much better if men walked along side women as a support instead of a burden that drags them down. The goal is not who rules who, but rather how can we each best serve God.

I'm must give abundant praises to Richard, who uses his position of having more Scriptural knowledge than me, to support me and encourage me to achieve my full potential. :hug:

Rose

[joel]

Hi Joel....I see that you have already taken my words out of context, and then judged my heart on the matter before a discussion between us has even taken place. Can you see why I might be weary?
If this subject is as important to you as you claim, then read the link. It will go a long way in showing me if it's important enough to read something through and think about it, before you respond. It may be someone elses writing, but it is my understanding as well so you can read it as coming straight from the horses mouth:). I have the feeling you just want to argue your point of view...but I hope I'm mistaken.

Wow!! That is simply amazing. I've been around this forum a long time and it should be common knowledge by now that I am a fair person....seeking only the truth.....and fellowship with those of a like mind....and heart.

Since you don't know me very well.....and I obviously pushed your buttons.....let me just simply, quietly, and quickly withdraw from this powder keg.

Joel

[kathryn]

Richard , Rose and All.... After re-reading the link I sent on the previous page, I had an interesting thought while cutting the lawn this morning and thinking about that Kol infinity symbol. (seem to have a one track mind lately) :) On the link, Stephen Jones speaks of when Eve was separated from Adam, she was given the El Shaddai portion of His image and Adam was given the Yahweh portion. Together they "perfectly reflected a portion of the divine nature ...." (perfect unity in the double witness)
If you look at Richard's description of the Kol infinity symbol http://biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Kaph_Crown.asp , it divides the Bible Wheel with perfect bilateral symmetry, which he compares to "rightly dividing the word of truth". It passes through the Alef (1) Tav (22)= 23 at the top and the Kaph (11) Lamed (12) = 23 , at the bottom.(total = 46)
I've long had the niggle that this had something to do with our 46 chromosones, 23 from our father, and 23 from our mother. My thought was, is it possible "rightly dividing the word" is connected to the double witness of the Yahweh and El Shaddai portion of God's image and is creation witnessing to this, in both the Kol infinity symbol and the distribution of our chromosones?

[kathryn]

...and another thought that just flitted in:) Herod's temple was never filled with God's Glory. Many bible scholars have likened it to a type of carnal man, with the 46 years of building, also a type of man's chromosones.
Is it possible this is also a picture of "man" not walking in perfect unity, and without his "double witness" ? Woman is described as the "glory of man" in scripture. Could Herod's temple minus the glory, be a picture of this?

[kathryn]

Joel....I'm sorry, I must have been posting while you were and missed your response. Yes indeed, I have known you to be very fair indeed, which made your response even more of a surprize. And yes, you did push buttons. That isn't a bad thing. Buttons are good :) My only parting comment, as it appears you don't wish to continue, is to ask you to consider what true unity means. The New Covenant moves us into perfect unity in One, where authority is no longer an issue, because it is irrelevant. Yahweh does not conflict with El Shaddai. As Jones states, God is not double minded.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Wow!! That is simply amazing. I've been around this forum a long time and it should be common knowledge by now that I am a fair person....seeking only the truth.....and fellowship with those of a like mind....and heart.

Since you don't know me very well.....and I obviously pushed your buttons.....let me just simply, quietly, and quickly withdraw from this powder keg.

Joel
Hey there Joel, :yo:

We all know you as a very fair brother interested only in the truth just like Kathryn said. But you are correct - there are some powder kegs with many hair trigger buttons all around them, so we need to walk gently - but I don't think we need to avoid the topic altogether. Good could come from discussing this.

All the very best,

Richard

[Rose]

Joel....I'm sorry, I must have been posting while you were and missed your response. Yes indeed, I have known you to be very fair indeed, which made your response even more of a surprize. And yes, you did push buttons. That isn't a bad thing. Buttons are good :) My only parting comment, as it appears you don't wish to continue, is to ask you to consider what true unity means. The New Covenant moves us into perfect unity in One, where authority is no longer an issue, because it is irrelevant. Yahweh does not conflict with El Shaddai. As Jones states, God is not double minded.

Hi Kathryn,

That is the way the New Church began - by having perfect unity amongst those who were waiting in the Upper Room for the promise of the Holy Spirit. As you said: when there is unity, who's in power is no longer relevant because all are one in the Lord.

Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Rose

[joel]

I will submit to Richard's advice, and attempt not to touch any trigger switches, or throw any incendiary devices towards the powder keg that lurks on the horizon.

The issue of authority is very sensitive indeed.

When it comes to men and women.....especially in the realm of spiritual matters.....it can be so volatile that it must be treated with utmost care and civility.

As believers, we are united into a fellowship that is far beyond our current apprehensions in that we are joined to the Master of us all. In that realm, all distinctions of flesh; gender, race, etc. disappear. The authority comes from above......we are all members of His body,.........we are a called out assembly, the church of the living God.

There is authority within the church; bishops, deacons, elders, apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, teachers.

Much of this has been distorted by means of the flesh of man.....especially when the "ego" rules within individuals....who then make disciples unto themselves.

the proper functioning of the members of the body.....as they are fitly joined together is a challenge of great magnitude.

The degree to which we are aligned with the truths is our responsibility....as we relate to each other and glorify the unity which only He can attain, and maintain.

This, I believe, is predicated on the unity that we find in the homes of believers where men are joined to women, and who have children that are raised up. This is where authority is first expressed and learned.

Without homes in order, we have churches in disorder. With churches in disorder, we are moving towards a country in chaos. With countries in chaos, we are moving towards a despotic rule of tyrants.
This is a reproach to God.

To take it one step deeper,.......each individual, irrespective of gender, must be rightly aligned with God. He has established an order that is to be expressed within our homes.

In that realm, the ideal husband, and the ideal wife are to "dress and keep" their garden. It is in this environment that I say that Paul teaches some specific directions of God which we are to seek harmony within our families.

Man and Woman roles are specific within the family unit.

In our continued discussion, it would be wise to identify these distinctions and seek light from the Lord concerning our personal relationships so that He can adjust us accordingly.

Joel

[kathryn]

Hi Joel...appreciate you coming back. I agree with everything you've said above. Certainly in the maturing process, we all must submit under authority and there is a heirarchy of order in this process. However, it was only ever meant to be a means to an end, never the end in itself
We grow through eros, to phileo love and into agape and unity. There is a time for the "school master" of the Law, and then we move on to the have the Law written on our hearts. When it is written on our hearts, we move as One in unity, and heirarchy and authority becomes irrelevant.
The husband being in authority over his wife, was not God's original family order in the garden. Christ is not satisfied to remain in such an immature relationship with His Bride. There's SO much more to it than this, Joel. He has called His Bride into maturity and perfection, that He might be ONE FLESH with her. She has been destined to rule and reign WITH Him.

[kathryn]

And yes Rose...that's an excellent example. I noticed that you put the UPPER room in italics. I had glazed over that one, all these years, until you pointed it out. Thank you! ps...I also appreciated the understanding of Eve searching for wisdom. Wonderful!

[Rose]

Hi Joel...appreciate you coming back. I agree with everything you've said above. Certainly in the maturing process, we all must submit under authority and there is a heirarchy of order in this process. However, it was only ever meant to be a means to an end, never the end in itself
We grow through eros, to phileo love and into agape and unity. There is a time for the "school master" of the Law, and then we move on to the have the Law written on our hearts. When it is written on our hearts, we move as One in unity, and heirarchy and authority becomes irrelevant.
The husband being in authority over his wife, was not God's original family order in the garden. Christ is not satisfied to remain in such an immature relationship with His Bride. There's SO much more to it than this, Joel. He has called His Bride into maturity and perfection, that He might be ONE FLESH with her. She has been destined to rule and reign WITH Him.

Well said Kathryn...:thumb:

One cannot have two masters - a woman cannot have a man as her master and Christ also. When we find our salvation in Christ, we become one with Him - with the Holy Spirit as our teacher and guide to lead us into to deeper truth.

It is quite a different relationship when we become one with our spouse in marriage and work together as one to raise up a family. Even in the family relationship when on member tries to dominate the other the family suffers, only in working together in unity with each party giving of themselves to the relationship, instead of taking from the relationship by domination, can true harmony be achieved.

Rose

[joel]

I look at my roles as wearing two hats;

one in the natural.....a husband, a father, a business man........

one in the spiritual....a teacher of truth, a leader of men.
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as to the first......I am given a wife, a helper.......one full of wisdom and counsel to whom I must give myself.....to hear what she says....to hear what she discerns......to listen.....to receive counsel.

In this way, I am loving her as Christ loves the church......as He gave Himself unto her.......as He listens to us now.

As in this giving role, a loving role, is expressed, I am functioning in the spiritual realm....where He, Who is Wisdom, can give us His guidance to walk in His ways....and produce His fruit.

My wife is
God's gift
to me.

In the magnitude of my realization of her worth, I seek her counsel, and her wisdom......I love her.

She is my helper,
she is my friend,
I cannot function without her,
I cannot pretend....
to be what He wants me to be.....without her input, ....
her insight.....I must not offend....
and give any thought of rejection,
or of petty discard,
She is my closest friend,
my precious, heart-felt trump card.

Nothing can separate,
nothing can intervene,
nothing condemn,
nor worldly redeem.

We are one,
Two consigned,
Three even with Him, entwined.

Joel

[Rose]

My wife is
God's gift
to me.

In the magnitude of my realization of her worth, I seek her counsel, and her wisdom......I love her.

She is my helper,
she is my friend,
I cannot function without her,
I cannot pretend....
to be what He wants me to be.....without her input, ....
her insight.....I must not offend....
and give any thought of rejection,
or of petty discard,
She is my closest friend,
my precious, heart-felt trump card.

Nothing can separate,
nothing can intervene,
nothing condemn,
nor worldly redeem.

We are one,
Two consigned,
Three even with Him, entwined.

Joel

That is beautiful Joel....thank you for sharing it with us. :signthankspin:


Rose

[joel]

A wife,God's gift to man,
a wondrous work....a part of His plan.
A wife is to work as He pleased,
clothing herself with that which she sees...
bringing benefit, and return,
not loss that would burn,
but, beauty
and life,
a strong, resourceful, gifted wife.


Joel

[joel]

The garden....His place of delight,

yet the thief stole her away, in the day of the night.

He lured her with fortune,

enticed her with fame,

My Beloved fell for him,

the false one........profane.

Wisdom he offered, so he proclaimed

to her the great asset, to make her the same

as the One most wise, the One with the Name,

of righteousness, holiness, santification without shame,

But....we died.....falling from His grace

in judgment, in solitude far from His face,

How cruel the lie of the opposing one seems,

If only they had listened to the One Who dreams,

and knows, and gives forth

His beams of pure light,....in love.....He redeems.

Thank you dear Lord for giving yourself

that we may return to the garden of dreams.

Joel