is there any plain prophecy of the death/resurrection of the messiah?

[gilgal]

Is there any plain prophecy of the death/resurrection of the messiah?

The closest I find is what Jesus mentioned: Jonah. But if Jesus hadn't mentioned Jonah would they have known that the Messiah would've been raised on the 3rd day?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Is there any plain prophecy of the death/resurrection of the messiah?

The closest I find is what Jesus mentioned: Jonah. But if Jesus hadn't mentioned Jonah would they have known that the Messiah would've been raised on the 3rd day?
No, nothing explicit. But there are a few typological elements that might have helped folks see it in Scripture in hindsight. The three days and nights of Jonah is probably the most direct. And there is the sacrifice of Isaac in Genesis 22. Like Jonah, it is prophetic of the death and resurrection of Christ and there were "three days" between when God gave the command to Abraham and when the sacrifice happened. Folks have suggested that Isaac was "dead" in the eyes of Abraham from the moment God gave the command, and was received back "alive" on the third day when God replaced him with a ram.

And then there is the famous verse from Hosea:

Hosea 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
But there certainly is nothing "explicit." That is for sure.

Richard

[gilgal]

No, nothing explicit. But there are a few typological elements that might have helped folks see it in Scripture in hindsight. The three days and nights of Jonah is probably the most direct. And there is the sacrifice of Isaac in Genesis 22. Like Jonah, it is prophetic of the death and resurrection of Christ and there were "three days" between when God gave the command to Abraham and when the sacrifice happened. Folks have suggested that Isaac was "dead" in the eyes of Abraham from the moment God gave the command, and was received back "alive" on the third day when God replaced him with a ram.

And then there is the famous verse from Hosea:

Hosea 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
But there certainly is nothing "explicit." That is for sure.

Richard
There's Psalms 16 and 22. There's Zechariah 12:10 with the pierced hands.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

There's Psalms 16 and 22. There's Zechariah 12:10 with the pierced hands.
Yes, but those are not explicitly about the Messiah. Psalms 16 and 22 are Psalms written by David and seem to be about David in their original context. They only acquire their application to Messiah after the fact of his coming.

[gilgal]

Yes, but those are not explicitly about the Messiah. Psalms 16 and 22 are Psalms written by David and seem to be about David in their original context. They only acquire their application to Messiah after the fact of his coming.

How does psalm 22 apply to David?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

How does psalm 22 apply to David?
Read about the life of David. There were many times that he was under great stress and persecution by enemies. Read it in light of the life of David, and in the light of all the other Psalms he wrote, and I think the picture should become pretty clear.

[gilgal]

Read about the life of David. There were many times that he was under great stress and persecution by enemies. Read it in light of the life of David, and in the light of all the other Psalms he wrote, and I think the picture should become pretty clear.



Psalm 22
16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Was David pierced?

[basilfo]

Is there any plain prophecy of the death/resurrection of the messiah?

John 2:18 So the Jews answered and said to Him, "What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?" 19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20 Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

Hi Gilgal,
I know you are probably looking for something in the OT, but I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

This passage is a prophecy of Jesus speaking of His death and resurrection is what came to mind.

The revelation of God's plan of redemption for man, although NOT a parenthesis or PLAN B as dispensationalists would like to teach, was given to us gradually over thousands of years, through the prophets and Christ and the apostles.

So the apparent lack of a clear prophecy of His death and resurrection spoken centuries before it occurred, does not detract from the truth.

Good question Gilgal.

Dave

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

I have heard or read that the phrase "cut off" in Daniel 9 was known to be a referral to being murdered or killed.

Joseph in the well? Wasn't that 3 days? Not sure without checking..

[basilfo]

True. But no prophecy of resurrection, just 'cut off' in Daniel.

Consider this: The disciples, having the benefit of personal, daily companionship and teaching from Jesus in the flesh FOR 3 YEARS, still did not understand fully that He would die and be raised 3 days later - even after He was crucified. When the women reported that He was risen, they didn't believe them. None said, "Of course! That's what He said would happen!!"

So, even some of these vailed ref's to being dead (in a fish's belly, in a well, etc) and then raised (spit out on dry land, or removed from the well) would hardly be expected to be understood AT THE TIME as prophecies of His death and resurrection. Certainly not as clear as the timeline from the decree to rebuild the temple til Messiah given in Dan 9.

Dave

[gilgal]

I have heard or read that the phrase "cut off" in Daniel 9 was known to be a referral to being murdered or killed.

Joseph in the well? Wasn't that 3 days? Not sure without checking..
Joseph in the pit? no. It doesn't mention. Most of them are hinting to the Messiah but not speaking directly.

Daniel 9 is amazing. Gabriel even shows the timing. I wonder if the 46 years of building the Temple mentioned in John 2 is referring to the 49 years or 7 weeks in Daniel 9. Maybe they took breaks adding to 3 years. 46+3 = 49 years.

Then the 62 weeks.


Daniel 9
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Where it says the covenant the text is referring to a covenant mentioned before in the chapter:

Daniel 9
4And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
But the last week seems ambiguous. what is the test saying?

overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate

[gilgal]

True. But no prophecy of resurrection, just 'cut off' in Daniel.

Consider this: The disciples, having the benefit of personal, daily companionship and teaching from Jesus in the flesh FOR 3 YEARS, still did not understand fully that He would die and be raised 3 days later - even after He was crucified. When the women reported that He was risen, they didn't believe them. None said, "Of course! That's what He said would happen!!"

So, even some of these vailed ref's to being dead (in a fish's belly, in a well, etc) and then raised (spit out on dry land, or removed from the well) would hardly be expected to be understood AT THE TIME as prophecies of His death and resurrection. Certainly not as clear as the timeline from the decree to rebuild the temple til Messiah given in Dan 9.

Dave

I think most of the prophecies are at the Remez/hint level of interpretation of Scripture. We see today as they were in the past that not many like to read the bible because they don't understand as mentioned in Matthew 13 and walk away.

If there were any closer prophecy Jesus would've mentioned it. But Jonah's as close as it gets.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I think most of the prophecies are at the Remez/hint level of interpretation of Scripture. We see today as they were in the past that not many like to read the bible because they don't understand as mentioned in Matthew 13 and walk away.

If there were any closer prophecy Jesus would've mentioned it. But Jonah's as close as it gets.
Yeah, Jonah is the most explicit - especially with the 3 days. It makes me wonder why there is no explicit NT connection with Gen 22 and the sacrifice of Isaac. It certainly is obvious to me.

As for Jonah, there there are some other very subtle connections. For example:


Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 16 is used in Acts as a prophecy of the resurrection, just as Jonah is used in the Gospels.

[Victor]

Yeah, Jonah is the most explicit - especially with the 3 days. It makes me wonder why there is no explicit NT connection with Gen 22 and the sacrifice of Isaac. It certainly is obvious to me.

As for Jonah, there there are some other very subtle connections. For example:


Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 16 is used in Acts as a prophecy of the resurrection, just as Jonah is used in the Gospels.

Correct, there's no explicit NT connection between Genesis 22 and the Cross. But in fact one of the best known verses in Scripture - John 3:16 - is an allusion to Gen 22:2! :)

Another symbolic reference to the Cross in found elsewhere:

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure (parabole).

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Correct, there's no explicit NT connection between Genesis 22 and the Cross. But in fact one of the best known verses in Scripture - John 3:16 - is an allusion to Gen 22:2! :)

Another symbolic reference to the Cross in found elsewhere:
Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure (parabole).


Good point. It seems quite clear that that passage alludes to the Gospel (John 3:16) - but it just seems odd that no NT book actually expounds upon it like Hebrews does on Psalms 2 & 110.

But the fact that it connects the sacrifice with the resurrection establishes adds great weight to the case that Gen 22 is a type of Christ, which already had been established in many other ways.

And this confirms the "three days" associated with the death and resurrection of Christ, since it took three days to get to Mount Moriah.

[gilgal]

Jonah spent 3 days and 3 nights in the fish belly and 40 days on foot. He preached in Nineveh and Jesus went to Galilee.

[gilgal]

Correct, there's no explicit NT connection between Genesis 22 and the Cross. But in fact one of the best known verses in Scripture - John 3:16 - is an allusion to Gen 22:2! :)

Another symbolic reference to the Cross in found elsewhere:

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure (parabole).



This must be quite a deep faith seeing that there is no other mentioning of the resurrection of the dead up until the 11th book 1Kings.

Hebrews 11
17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
Actually, in Genesis 21 he said:
That in Isaac shall thy seed be called
And following that he says, kill him.

[gregoryfl]

I am doing a study on this very subject and am coming more and more to believe that the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the most prophesied event in the Tanach, although well hidden, only to be revealed upon looking back from the Cross.

For example, (and I realize most may not agree here, but it does set a pattern) I see the death, burial and resurrection right in the first 3 days of creation.

I wrote about this on my blog not too long ago, which, to save space, am just going to post the link if you wish to read it:

http://ronsrestingplace.blogspot.com/2010/03/first-shadow-of-jesus-death-burial-and.html

Basically, the pattern I see is that when you find the number 3, or a derivative of 3 (such as 30, 300, 3000) someone or something being in a situation you would normally associate with death (such as being put in a pit) and then coming out of that situation, I believe you should study the story carefully, as you probably are looking at a veiled Messianic prophecy with its own unique aspect brought out.

I see such people as Isaac, Joseph, Daniel, Samson, Gideon, David, etc, all fitting this criteria in their lives.

Ron

[gilgal]

I am doing a study on this very subject and am coming more and more to believe that the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the most prophesied event in the Tanach, although well hidden, only to be revealed upon looking back from the Cross.

For example, (and I realize most may not agree here, but it does set a pattern) I see the death, burial and resurrection right in the first 3 days of creation.

I wrote about this on my blog not too long ago, which, to save space, am just going to post the link if you wish to read it:

http://ronsrestingplace.blogspot.com/2010/03/first-shadow-of-jesus-death-burial-and.html

Basically, the pattern I see is that when you find the number 3, or a derivative of 3 (such as 30, 300, 3000) someone or something being in a situation you would normally associate with death (such as being put in a pit) and then coming out of that situation, I believe you should study the story carefully, as you probably are looking at a veiled Messianic prophecy with its own unique aspect brought out.

I see such people as Isaac, Joseph, Daniel, Samson, Gideon, David, etc, all fitting this criteria in their lives.

Ron
I will look into it. Thanks. BUt my point is that this is only at a hint/remes level and up. No pshat level.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

This is a great study. I had read that the scribes were perplexed by the dual natures of the Messiah that they read in the Prophets. They recognized that his suffering and death was prophesied and yet that he was to be Ruler and Victorious King.

Where it says the covenant the text is referring to a covenant mentioned before in the chapter:



Doing a search of the word 'covenant' using blue letter bible allows one to further see that there was a 'my covenant' passed through Noah and Abraham (from Eden) that is referred to as a covenant of Mercy. http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=covenant&t=KJV This is different from the mosaic national covenant delivered by Moses after wandering 40 yrs in the wilderness.

This is the covenant of Mercy promised in Eden which the Messiah "confirms" (confirmed) in the midst of the final week at the cross.

One of the trajic ironies of the futurists scheme or view (disbelief of the jews as origen calls it) is that it takes the very important prophecy about the Messiah (God) fulfilling and establishing his covenant of Mercy through the cross and (through various motives and disbelief) assigns it erroneously and misleadingly to some fictitious future guy in a red suit and horns (antichrist) thereby 'glorifying' the negative spirit of that perspective. We think again of Johns writings in his epistles about the 'spirit' of antichrist being that spirit and perspectives which deny that the Messiah has come (is come) IN the flesh.

[gilgal]

This is a great study. I had read that the scribes were perplexed by the dual natures of the Messiah that they read in the Prophets. They recognized that his suffering and death was prophesied and yet that he was to be Ruler and Victorious King.

Doing a search of the word 'covenant' using blue letter bible allows one to further see that there was a 'my covenant' passed through Noah and Abraham (from Eden) that is referred to as a covenant of Mercy. http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=covenant&t=KJV This is different from the mosaic national covenant delivered by Moses after wandering 40 yrs in the wilderness.

This is the covenant of Mercy promised in Eden which the Messiah "confirms" (confirmed) in the midst of the final week at the cross.

One of the trajic ironies of the futurists scheme or view (disbelief of the jews as origen calls it) is that it takes the very important prophecy about the Messiah (God) fulfilling and establishing his covenant of Mercy through the cross and (through various motives and disbelief) assigns it erroneously and misleadingly to some fictitious future guy in a red suit and horns (antichrist) thereby 'glorifying' the negative spirit of that perspective. We think again of Johns writings in his epistles about the 'spirit' of antichrist being that spirit and perspectives which deny that the Messiah has come (is come) IN the flesh.
What I don't understand it, if it was Jesus whom it's referring to and if the final 7 years comes immediately after the 62 weeks then what happened in the 7 years? The sacrifices were going on throughout the book of Acts. Paul went to Jerusalem.

How many trips to Jerusalem did he make? was Paul converted within the 7 years? If he was, did Acts 15 occur within the 7 years?