View Full Version : Is Universalism Dangerous?
Universalism teaches that all people will ultimately be saved no matter what they believe here on earth. You could deny God, hate Him, blaspheme against Him, join a satanist group and murder people and still go to heaven. PS wiki on Universalism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universalism
I believe Universalism is wrong and dangerous. It is like saying sin is ok even the worst incorrigible sinners as after all, just repent and you will be saved.
PS:
http://www.carm.org/universalismold
What are your views?
Many Blessings.
Richard Amiel McGough
04-26-2010, 07:12 AM
Universalism teaches that all people will ultimately be saved no matter what they believe here on earth. You could deny God, hate Him, blaspheme against Him, join a satanist group and murder people and still go to heaven. PS wiki on Universalism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universalism
I believe Universalism is wrong and dangerous. It is like saying sin is ok even the worst incorrigible sinners as after all, just repent and you will be saved.
PS:
http://www.carm.org/universalismold
What are your views?
Many Blessings.
Hi Cheow,
We have a thread on this topic called Evangelical Universalism: Gospel or Heresy? (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234&highlight=universalism).
I think your description of universalism is not accurate. It does not teach that "sin is ok." Have you not noticed that this is the exact problem that folks had with the Gospel Paul preached? That's why Paul wrote "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" (Rom 6:1) From the beginning, the Gospel seemed to mean that folks could sin with impunity because it tells us ""just repent and you will be saved."
I am very confused by your comments. Are you saying that a person must do more than repent to be saved?
All the best,
Richard
Hi Cheow,
We have a thread on this topic called Evangelical Universalism: Gospel or Heresy? (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234&highlight=universalism).
I think your description of universalism is not accurate. It does not teach that "sin is ok." Have you not noticed that this is the exact problem that folks had with the Gospel Paul preached? That's why Paul wrote "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" (Rom 6:1) From the beginning, the Gospel seemed to mean that folks could sin with impunity because it tells us ""just repent and you will be saved."
I am very confused by your comments. Are you saying that a person must do more than repent to be saved?
All the best,
Richard
Sorry for the confusion RAM, what I mean is that if eventually everyone will be saved then being good(righteous) and being evil has no meaning. Might as well everyone of us sinned and be the most sinful, evil and cruel people on earth as after all we will eventually repent and be saved.
If eventually all sinful people will be saved then where is the motivation not to sin?
If eventually all sinful people will be saved then might as well sin forever (and live forever) to the heart's content. It doesn't make sense for sin and evil people to live forever, its a mockery of God's plan. Where do God draw the line? Jesus said to forgive someone 7 times 70 times i.e. 490 times meaning as many times as possible. A line must be drawn in regards to sin, perhaps, if one sinned by the 491 times, he/she goes to Hell and lost forever the road to eternal life in heaven.
Universalism therefore to me is dangerous and very wrong.
Many Blessings.
Sorry for the confusion RAM, what I mean is that if eventually everyone will be saved then being good(righteous) and being evil has no meaning. Might as well everyone of us sinned and be the most sinful, evil and cruel people on earth as after all we will eventually repent and be saved.
If eventually all sinful people will be saved then where is the motivation not to sin?
If eventually all sinful people will be saved then might as well sin forever (and live forever) to the heart's content. It doesn't make sense for sin and evil people to live forever, its a mockery of God's plan. Where do God draw the line? Jesus said to forgive someone 7 times 70 times i.e. 490 times meaning as many times as possible. A line must be drawn in regards to sin, perhaps, if one sinned by the 491 times, he/she goes to Hell and lost forever the road to eternal life in heaven.
Universalism therefore to me is dangerous and very wrong.
Many Blessings.
Hi Cheow,
I don't get it....:confused: How can the eventual salvation of everyone be dangerous? It seems to me that if the most horrendous evil murderer that one could possibly think of can find salvation if they repent in this life on their death-bed....why would you think it wrong for the same chance to continue for those who have passed on from this life as unbelievers, because they never received an opportunity in this life?
You can't tell me that there is anyone who has ever lived who has not continued to sin to some degree after they have been saved. If that is the case, then why would you think not saving everyone would motivate people not to sin?
You ask: where does God draw the line? I say the line should be drawn at eternity, if that's what it takes to bring everyone to the living waters of Christ.
Rose
This is the confession of a former universalist who once saw universalism as comforting but now claims that universalism is dangerous and no more tempting:
"Studying the OT has deepened my walk with God. Strangely enough, seeing the judgement of God has been comforting. My former universalism seems somewhat weak, even a bit sickening to me now. The doctrine of hell still frightens me somewhat, and, at times, universalism can still be a bit tempting. However, universalism can too easily spawn the philosophy of moral relativism. It can lead to a lack of seriousness about life for our choices no longer have eternal consequences. Universalism leads to self-righteousness because the universalist somehow thinks that he is enlightened and superior for rejecting the doctrine of hell. And self-righteousness brings out the worst in people, separating them from a serious walk with God."
"Instead, the knowledge that there is eternal judgement, that Christ died to save us, that we are saved purely by the undeserved mercy of God; this has led me to become kinder, more humble, more gracious. I’m a better person as a Bible-based Christian than as a universalist. And I used to think that the doctrines of conservative Christianity were psychologically destructive. However, I’m finding myself to be far more confident now. Because before, I had to base my confidence on self, and that just didn’t work."
"I ask why I had to be self-reliant as a universalist. And I think the reason is thus: The god of universalism seems so kind and loving. He will forgive and reform everyone. But his love for us is sappy rather than passionate. He makes no distinctions. Everyone is his child whether they choose good or evil. If the homicide bomber, the atheist, the cruel and the evil are as much the children of God as those who live decent, quiet lives, then there is nothing special about being a member of this god’s family. Such a god is easily mocked as everyone chooses his own standards without any eternal consequence. This god inspires absolutely no confidence whatsoever. And, thus, I was left with me as my own god. As a result, my life wasn’t particularly happy, and it lacked direction."
"The God of the Bible, though, is strong, passionate and serious. He is kind and loving, but He inspires fear because He is strong and He judges. The God Who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah cannot be ignored. The God Who expelled Israel and Judah from the Land of Promise cannot be trifled with. The God Who spoke strong words through the prophets, and Who did as He warned, must be listened to. Such a powerful, righteous God can be respected and honored. This God can be trusted to direct our lives. This God can be trusted to intervene for us. This God is not blithely indifferent to the evil of the world. And, truly, His seriousness makes me feel much better. With true Christianity, one’s confidence is based on God rather than self. And I now find myself far more comfortable. Things don’t worry me as much as they did before. I trust this God to take care of me and my family. And after considering this reality, universalism doesn’t seem so tempting anymore."
Many Blessings.
This is the confession of a former universalist who once saw universalism as comforting but now claims that universalism is dangerous and no more tempting:
"Studying the OT has deepened my walk with God. Strangely enough, seeing the judgement of God has been comforting. My former universalism seems somewhat weak, even a bit sickening to me now. The doctrine of hell still frightens me somewhat, and, at times, universalism can still be a bit tempting. However, universalism can too easily spawn the philosophy of moral relativism. It can lead to a lack of seriousness about life for our choices no longer have eternal consequences. Universalism leads to self-righteousness because the universalist somehow thinks that he is enlightened and superior for rejecting the doctrine of hell. And self-righteousness brings out the worst in people, separating them from a serious walk with God."
"Instead, the knowledge that there is eternal judgement, that Christ died to save us, that we are saved purely by the undeserved mercy of God; this has led me to become kinder, more humble, more gracious. I’m a better person as a Bible-based Christian than as a universalist. And I used to think that the doctrines of conservative Christianity were psychologically destructive. However, I’m finding myself to be far more confident now. Because before, I had to base my confidence on self, and that just didn’t work."
"I ask why I had to be self-reliant as a universalist. And I think the reason is thus: The god of universalism seems so kind and loving. He will forgive and reform everyone. But his love for us is sappy rather than passionate. He makes no distinctions. Everyone is his child whether they choose good or evil. If the homicide bomber, the atheist, the cruel and the evil are as much the children of God as those who live decent, quiet lives, then there is nothing special about being a member of this god’s family. Such a god is easily mocked as everyone chooses his own standards without any eternal consequence. This god inspires absolutely no confidence whatsoever. And, thus, I was left with me as my own god. As a result, my life wasn’t particularly happy, and it lacked direction."
"The God of the Bible, though, is strong, passionate and serious. He is kind and loving, but He inspires fear because He is strong and He judges. The God Who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah cannot be ignored. The God Who expelled Israel and Judah from the Land of Promise cannot be trifled with. The God Who spoke strong words through the prophets, and Who did as He warned, must be listened to. Such a powerful, righteous God can be respected and honored. This God can be trusted to direct our lives. This God can be trusted to intervene for us. This God is not blithely indifferent to the evil of the world. And, truly, His seriousness makes me feel much better. With true Christianity, one’s confidence is based on God rather than self. And I now find myself far more comfortable. Things don’t worry me as much as they did before. I trust this God to take care of me and my family. And after considering this reality, universalism doesn’t seem so tempting anymore."
Many Blessings.
HI Cheow,
Sorry to say, I find his reasoning very weak and unconvincing. From his words he strikes me as a fellow who would be willing to send his children off to eternal punishment because they didn't conform to his rules.
I don't see presented in his understanding of God....the portrayal of the father in the Prodigal Son who spared no effort to show his eternal love for his son, so he would not be lost.
I don't see Universalists as being over confident, but rather as having a comfort of knowing that God treats His children like we as forgiving parents treat our children, instead of like a ruthless dictator sending people to eternal punishment, because of their ignorant unbelief.
He says: "I trust this God to take care of me and my family. " How can he trust God to take care of his family, when there are probably members of his family who are not believers? According to his understanding of God those members would be sent to eternal punishment, with no hope of salvation...:eek:
I can focus my witness of the Gospel on God's forgiveness, and love....instead of His wrath and un-forgiveness! Sounds like a better plan to me...:D
Rose
Richard Amiel McGough
04-27-2010, 08:38 AM
Sorry for the confusion RAM, what I mean is that if eventually everyone will be saved then being good(righteous) and being evil has no meaning. Might as well everyone of us sinned and be the most sinful, evil and cruel people on earth as after all we will eventually repent and be saved.
If eventually all sinful people will be saved then where is the motivation not to sin?
Hi Cheow,
Now I'm even more confused!
I don't think you realize what you are saying.
What is your personal "motivation not to sin?" Is it love for God or fear of judgment?
Think about it. Christ has saved you from God's judgment. Does this mean that now you desire to be "the most sinful, evil and cruel" person? Of course not!
I want to dig into this with you. Your post indicates a HUGE confusion about the implications of Universalism. The fundamental confusion is this:
You believe that only some people will repent and be saved.
Universalism states that all people will repent and be saved.
In either case, the person must repent to be saved. So what's the difference between your beliefs and Universalism? Only the number of people who get saved. Everything else is the same.
So how many people need to go to hell in order to avoid the "dangerous doctrine" of Universalism? Would one be enough?
All the very best,
Richard
Richard Amiel McGough
04-27-2010, 08:41 AM
This is the confession of a former universalist who once saw universalism as comforting but now claims that universalism is dangerous and no more tempting:
Hey Cheow,
When quoting from other websites, you should include a link to the source of the information.
Thanks!
Richard
Hi RAM,
This is the link:
http://www.observations.net/questions/question8.html
The reasons why I am against Universalism are:
1) Sinners will continue to live forever in sin until they repent. As such, where is the motivation NOT to sin?
2) "Few will enter by the narrow gate" and "Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven" suggest that not all people will be saved.
3) The parable of the tares (Matthew 13) and the judgement of the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25) do not suggest all will be saved.
4) If eventually all will be saved then, there is no need for the lake of fire, the Great White Throne, Hell and Hades.
5) "Fear God who can destroy both body and soul in Hell" suggests that God wants us to fear Him so that He could save us from being destroyed in Hell. It's a way of showing God's love.
Matthew 7:14
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Matthew 7: 21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Many Blessings.
Richard Amiel McGough
04-27-2010, 09:56 AM
1) Sinners will continue to live forever in sin until they repent. As such, where is the motivation NOT to sin?
Brother Cheow,
I think you have forgotten what the Bible teaches about sin and the Gospel.
Sin is BONDAGE.
Sin is CORRUPTION.
Sin is DARKNESS.
Sin is EVIL.
Sin is PAIN.
Sin is FEAR.
Sin is DEATH.
Sin is OF THE DEVIL.
Sin is ALIENATION FROM GOD.
And what is the Gospel? It preaches that we can be free from sin and enjoy the life of God in Christ!
Freedom from sin is LIFE.
Freedom from sin is LIGHT.
Freedom from sin is GOOD.
Freedom from sin is FREEDOM.
Freedom from sin is JOY.
Freedom from sin is PEACE.
Freedom from sin is TRUTH.
Freedom from sin is OF CHRIST.
Freedom from sin is COMMUNION WITH GOD.
How is it possible that you think nobody would want to be free from sin???
How is it possible that you say the only reason people would repent is to avoid judgment???
SINNERS ARE ALREADY SUFFERING UNDER GOD'S JUDGMENT BECAUSE OF THEIR SIN!!!
It seems to me that you have missed the central message of the Gospel.
Many blessings to you my good friend,
Richard
Hi RAM,
This is the link:
http://www.observations.net/questions/question8.html
The reasons why I am against Universalism are:
1) Sinners will continue to live forever in sin until they repent. As such, where is the motivation NOT to sin?
2) "Few will enter by the narrow gate" and "Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven" suggest that not all people will be saved.
3) The parable of the tares (Matthew 13) and the judgement of the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25) do not suggest all will be saved.
4) If eventually all will be saved then, there is no need for the lake of fire, the Great White Throne, Hell and Hades.
5) "Fear God who can destroy both body and soul in Hell" suggests that God wants us to fear Him so that He could save us from being destroyed in Hell. It's a way of showing God's love.
Matthew 7:14
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Matthew 7: 21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Many Blessings.
According to your reasoning, the Parable of the Prodigal Son (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?p=20571#post20571) exemplifies the very thing you are stating as being a problem with Universalism. It appears in the story of the Prodigal Son that he is rewarded by his father for his sinful behavior. If you notice in the story the father sees his son in the distance, and runs to greet him with compassion and kisses, before the son ever has a chance to repent...then the father clothes his son in the best garments and feeds him the best meat. That sure sounds like a reward to me! Even the other son complained about the excessive celebration that was taking place.
What kind of motivation would that be for someone not to sin? The answer to that is what the story is all about. As the father told the son who stayed at home "all I have is already yours", but your brother was dead and now he is alive! Sin is its own reward (which is bondage, and death), but when a child returns to his father that is freedom, and life and is cause for celebration. That is why I think Gods arms are always open, and reaching to draw in the lost child. The one lost sheep out of the 100 is who God is looking for....He will not settle for 99 sheep when He can have all 100!
God Bless
Rose
Richard Amiel McGough
04-27-2010, 03:32 PM
According to your reasoning, the Parable of the Prodigal Son (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?p=20571#post20571) exemplifies the very thing you are stating as being a problem with Universalism. It appears in the story of the Prodigal Son that he is rewarded by his father for his sinful behavior. If you notice in the story the father sees his son in the distance, and runs to greet him with compassion and kisses, before the son ever has a chance to repent...then the father clothes his son in the best garments and feeds him the best meat. That sure sounds like a reward to me! Even the other son complained about the excessive celebration that was taking place.
What kind of motivation would that be for someone not to sin? The answer to that is what the story is all about. As the father told the son who stayed at home "all I have is already yours", but your brother was dead and now he is alive! Sin is its own reward (which is bondage, and death), but when a child returns to his father that is freedom, and life and is cause for celebration. That is why I think Gods arms are always open, and reaching to draw in the lost child. The one lost sheep out of the 100 is who God is looking for....He will not settle for 99 sheep when He can have all 100!
God Bless
Rose
Excellent points.
The son's life was ruined by sin, and that's what motivated him to return to his father. This sounds like the central message of the Gospel. God is calling sinners to repentance because sin destroys their lives, and our Heavenly Father wants to save us from that death. We see the same message in the Parables of the Lost Sheep and the Lost Coin. Christ said he came to save that which was lost, and the angels rejoice when a sinner repents.
Richard
I understand the parable of the Prodigal son which shows the compassion of God when one repents. But the issue is what happened when the prodigal son sinned against the father again and again and again. I am very sure the time will come when the father will draw the line, "Look, son, I have forgiven you so many times, this is the last straw, you do it one more time and I will disown you for good!".
Now where do God draw the line?
There is a unique parable in the Gospel of John and Jesus told the adulteress, "Leave your life of sin". The question that come into my mind is, "what will happen if the adulteress sin again"?
John 8:3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
Many Blessings.
Richard Amiel McGough
04-27-2010, 05:40 PM
I understand the parable of the Prodigal son which shows the compassion of God when one repents. But the issue is what happened when the prodigal son sinned against the father again and again and again. I am very sure the time will come when the father will draw the line, "Look, son, I have forgiven you so many times, this is the last straw, you do it one more time and I will disown you for good!".
Now where do God draw the line?
So now you are saying that some folks can never repent and be saved if they sinned too much?
I've never heard that before!
And it doesn't sound much like the Gospel I've read in the Bible.
Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
And Paul had a good understanding of these words he wrote. He caused a lot of "havoc" in the Church and "breathed out slaughter against the disciples of the Lord." Yet God saved him. His sin had not "gone too far." And that is the whole point. There is no sin that puts anyone beyond the grace of God.
One more thing - the doctrine that someone can "sin too much to be saved" is a VERY DANGEROUS DOCTRINE because it gives sinners an excuse not to repent!!! I've encountered this problem years ago. I met a poor man on the street and he asked for money. I always refuse to give money but offered instead to buy him a meal. So we went to McDonald's and while eating I told him the Gospel. His answer? He had SINNED TOO MUCH to be saved! I tried everything to explain that no man had sinned too much to be saved, but he could not hear. It was very sad.
Richard
Richard Amiel McGough
04-27-2010, 05:42 PM
1) Sinners will continue to live forever in sin until they repent. As such, where is the motivation NOT to sin?
Brother Cheow,
I think you have forgotten what the Bible teaches about sin and the Gospel.
Sin is BONDAGE.
Sin is CORRUPTION.
Sin is DARKNESS.
Sin is EVIL.
Sin is PAIN.
Sin is FEAR.
Sin is DEATH.
Sin is OF THE DEVIL.
Sin is ALIENATION FROM GOD.
And what is the Gospel? It preaches that we can be free from sin and enjoy the life of God in Christ!
Freedom from sin is LIFE.
Freedom from sin is LIGHT.
Freedom from sin is GOOD.
Freedom from sin is FREEDOM.
Freedom from sin is JOY.
Freedom from sin is PEACE.
Freedom from sin is TRUTH.
Freedom from sin is OF CHRIST.
Freedom from sin is COMMUNION WITH GOD.
How is it possible that you think nobody would want to be free from sin???
How is it possible that you say the only reason people would repent is to avoid judgment???
SINNERS ARE ALREADY SUFFERING UNDER GOD'S JUDGMENT BECAUSE OF THEIR SIN!!!
It seems to me that you have missed the central message of the Gospel.
Many blessings to you my good friend,
Richard
Brother Cheow,
I think you have forgotten what the Bible teaches about sin and the Gospel.
Sin is BONDAGE.
Sin is CORRUPTION.
Sin is DARKNESS.
Sin is EVIL.
Sin is PAIN.
Sin is FEAR.
Sin is DEATH.
Sin is OF THE DEVIL.
Sin is ALIENATION FROM GOD.
And what is the Gospel? It preaches that we can be free from sin and enjoy the life of God in Christ!
Freedom from sin is LIFE.
Freedom from sin is LIGHT.
Freedom from sin is GOOD.
Freedom from sin is FREEDOM.
Freedom from sin is JOY.
Freedom from sin is PEACE.
Freedom from sin is TRUTH.
Freedom from sin is OF CHRIST.
Freedom from sin is COMMUNION WITH GOD.
How is it possible that you think nobody would want to be free from sin???
How is it possible that you say the only reason people would repent is to avoid judgment???
SINNERS ARE ALREADY SUFFERING UNDER GOD'S JUDGMENT BECAUSE OF THEIR SIN!!!
It seems to me that you have missed the central message of the Gospel.
Many blessings to you my good friend,
Richard
Agree with you RAM, but sin still abounds so where is the freedom from sin?
What do you think of the parables of the tares in Matthew 13? There is nothing mentioned about forgiveness of sin but gathering sinners and burn them up:
"The Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field,
but while people slept,
his enemy came and sowed darnel also among the wheat, and went away.
But when the blade sprang up and brought forth fruit, then the darnel appeared also.
The servants of the householder came and said to him,
‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field?
Where did this darnel come from?’
"He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’
"The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and gather them up?’
"But he said, ‘No, lest perhaps while you gather up the darnel,
you root up the wheat with them.
Let both grow together until the harvest,
and in the harvest time I will tell the reapers,
"First, gather up the darnel, and bind them in bundles to burn them;
but gather the wheat into my barn."‘"
Explanation:
Then Jesus sent the multitudes away, and went into the house.
His disciples came to him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the darnel of the field."
He answered them,
"He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
the field is the world;
and the good seed, these are the children of the kingdom;
and the darnel are the children of the evil one.
The enemy who sowed them is the devil.
The harvest is the end of the age,
and the reapers are angels.
As therefore the darnel is gathered up and burned with fire;
so will it be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out his angels,
and they will gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling,
and those who do iniquity, and will cast them into the furnace of fire.
There will be weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
Many Blessings.
Clifford
04-27-2010, 09:11 PM
I don't think the doctrine of universalism is supported by the vast weight of Bible evidence. Granted it is God's will that "all be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth", but God has given man free will and will not force His will on anyone. If someone chooses to reject the gospel and God's love there is nothing God can do about it.
There is just too many verses that warn of the eternal consequences of rejecting God and His plan of salvation for there to be much credence to the doctrine of universalism.
"Narrow is gate and straight is the road that leads to life and few find it.
"Broad is the road and wide is the gate that leads to destruction and many choose that way". Matt 7:13-14
"If your right eye causes you to sin gouge it out for it is better for you to enter lift maimed than to be thrown into hell". Matt 5:29
And he will say to the goats on His left "depart from me you who are cursed into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels". Matt 25:41.
For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance. Hebrews 6:4-6.
Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. 27 There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. Heb 10:26-27.
We must base our doctrine on the vast weight of scripture that clearly teaches that not everyone will be saved, in fact most will not. Just look around at any society throughout history. Only a minority were true Christians.
Clifford
I don't think the doctrine of universalism is supported by the vast weight of Bible evidence. Granted it is God's will that "all be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth", but God has given man free will and will not force His will on anyone. If someone chooses to reject the gospel and God's love there is nothing God can do about it.
Hi Clifford,
So glad you entered into this discussion, it's always nice to have another viewpoint.
Now as far as God not forcing His will on anyone, I dare say that if one believes in eternal punishment for unbelievers, that is indeed God forcing His will on all those who don't believe! Who would of their own free will choose to be punished for eternity...:eek:
As I pointed out in my post on the Prodigal Son, God does indeed go the extra mile to bring all His children back home.
There is just too many verses that warn of the eternal consequences of rejecting God and His plan of salvation for there to be much credence to the doctrine of universalism.
"Narrow is gate and straight is the road that leads to life and few find it.
"Broad is the road and wide is the gate that leads to destruction and many choose that way". Matt 7:13-14
"If your right eye causes you to sin gouge it out for it is better for you to enter lift maimed than to be thrown into hell". Matt 5:29
And he will say to the goats on His left "depart from me you who are cursed into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels". Matt 25:41.
For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance. Hebrews 6:4-6.
Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. 27 There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. Heb 10:26-27.
The verses you quoted are at best ambiguous, and speaking of God's judgment against sin. One cannot base a doctrine of eternal punishment on verses that by their nature are contrary to the Gospel of the Love of God that Christ came to bring us. What parent wouldn't wait a lifetime to have their child turn from a lifestyle that is harmful to them....and by no means would any loving parent ever send their child to suffer eternal torment because they remained lost in deception. And if I as a human cannot conceive of such behavior, how could I attribute that behavior to God who made me in His image? God is Love.
We must base our doctrine on the vast weight of scripture that clearly teaches that not everyone will be saved, in fact most will not. Just look around at any society throughout history. Only a minority were true Christians.
Clifford
I dare say there are as many Scriptures, if not more that point to God's long-suffering and unwillingness that any should perish. The Universalist believes that God's arms will stay open until every last sinner (100 %) has come home whether it be in this world or the one to come.
.
2Pet.3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
.
God loves His creation so much that He sent His Son to put away the sin of every man that has ever lived, all that remains is for those who are still lost to be found.
.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Heb.9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
.
Good to be talking to you,
Rose
Clifford
04-28-2010, 08:50 PM
Hi Clifford,
So glad you entered into this discussion, it's always nice to have another viewpoint.
Now as far as God not forcing His will on anyone, I dare say that if one believes in eternal punishment for unbelievers, that is indeed God forcing His will on all those who don't believe! Who would of their own free will choose to be punished for eternity...:eek:
As I pointed out in my post on the Prodigal Son, God does indeed go the extra mile to bring all His children back home.
The verses you quoted are at best ambiguous, and speaking of God's judgment against sin. One cannot base a doctrine of eternal punishment on verses that by their nature are contrary to the Gospel of the Love of God that Christ came to bring us. What parent wouldn't wait a lifetime to have their child turn from a lifestyle that is harmful to them....and by no means would any loving parent ever send their child to suffer eternal torment because they remained lost in deception. And if I as a human cannot conceive of such behavior, how could I attribute that behavior to God who made me in His image? God is Love.
I dare say there are as many Scriptures, if not more that point to God's long-suffering and unwillingness that any should perish. The Universalist believes that God's arms will stay open until every last sinner (100 %) has come home whether it be in this world or the one to come.
.
2Pet.3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
.
God loves His creation so much that He sent His Son to put away the sin of every man that has ever lived, all that remains is for those who are still lost to be found.
.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Heb.9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
.
Good to be talking to you,
Rose
Hi Rose,
Any doctrines we hold to be biblically sound they must consider the whole counsel of God's word, not just selected verses.
Without a doubt scripture teaches that God is love and "does not want anyone to perish but come to the knowledege of the truth". However the Bible also teaches that God is Holy and Just and as such must judge sin. He judged the sin of the whole world when He put His Son on the cross. But each individual person must of their own free will appropriate what Jesus did for them in paying the penalty for their sin. Even though God loves each and every person He will not force His will on anyone. If you choose to reject God's will for your life He will allow you to suffer the consequences even though it pains Him to see people suffer.
Now as far as God not forcing His will on anyone, I dare say that if one believes in eternal punishment for unbelievers, that is indeed God forcing His will on all those who don't believe! Who would of their own free will choose to be punished for eternity...
As I pointed out in my post on the Prodigal Son, God does indeed go the extra mile to bring all His children back home.
It is not God forcing His will on anyone. That person by his/her own free will choose to reject God and his plan of salvation and so they suffer the consequences. I agree that God goes the extra mile and even more but its still up to each person to respond to God's love.
The verses you quoted are at best ambiguous, and speaking of God's judgment against sin. One cannot base a doctrine of eternal punishment on verses that by their nature are contrary to the Gospel of the Love of God that Christ came to bring us. What parent wouldn't wait a lifetime to have their child turn from a lifestyle that is harmful to them....and by no means would any loving parent ever send their child to suffer eternal torment because they remained lost in deception. And if I as a human cannot conceive of such behavior, how could I attribute that behavior to God who made me in His image? God is Love.
There is nothing ambiguous about the verses I quoted. They are pretty plain and clear cut. The Bible does not counterdict itself so those verses could not be contrary to the love of God when it is properly understood. It is not God sending people to hell, they are sending themselves by the choices they have made.
I dare say there are as many Scriptures, if not more that point to God's long-suffering and unwillingness that any should perish.
Yes there are many scriptures that show God's long-suffering and unwillingness that any should perish. However that does not invalidate those other scriptures that teach the dire consequences for a person if they reject God's love.
The Universalist believes that God's arms will stay open until every last sinner (100 %) has come home whether it be in this world or the one to come.
However is that doctrine supported by the Bible? I don't see anywhere in the scriptures that would indicate it, especially in the world to come.
I think the doctrine of universalism would be dangerous to a lot of people because it would give them the false hope that they could live any way they want and enjoy the pleasures of sin then someday or in the afterlife they would have a chance to get right with God. The only problem with that is not that God would not accept them if they repented, but the individual themselves would harden their hearts so much by continuing to reject God they they would be unable to repent. That is why the scripture says in Hebrews 4:7.
'Today when you hear his voice,
don’t harden your hearts.'
There are many instances in the Old Testament where God pleaded with Israel to repent and turn back to Him. He was long suffering with them but their came a point where His judgment finally came and it was terrible like when the Babylonians came and layed the land desolate or when His terrible judgment fell on Jerusalem and Judea in AD70. As Paul points out in 1Cor 10:9-11
Nor should we put Christ to the test, as some of them did and then died from snakebites. 10 And don’t grumble as some of them did, and then were destroyed by the angel of death. 11 These things happened to them as examples for us.
God warns us over and over because He does not want us to be destroyed like they were.
Hi Rose,
I think the doctrine of universalism would be dangerous to a lot of people because it would give them the false hope that they could live any way they want and enjoy the pleasures of sin then someday or in the afterlife they would have a chance to get right with God. The only problem with that is not that God would not accept them if they repented, but the individual themselves would harden their hearts so much by continuing to reject God they they would be unable to repent. That is why the scripture says in Hebrews 4:7.
'Today when you hear his voice,
don’t harden your hearts.'
Hi Clifford,
I'm short on time this morning, so I'm only going to address one point right now, and then get back to the rest later. :winking0071:
The statement you made about "Universalism being dangerous" has been brought up before by others using the same reason, so I would like to address the fallacy of that claim. First we need to divide people up into two groups:
1. Those who are unbelievers (everyone who is not a Christian)
2. Those who believe in Christ.
We can safely say that all those who are not Christians live in various degrees of sinful living, but the doctrine of Universalism doesn't affect them one bit because they don't believe anyway....so it can't be dangerous to them!
The second group of people who are Christians, have already had their sins forgiven them, and they know if they fall back into sin and ask forgiveness it will be granted....so the fact that at some point all the people who are not believers will come to Christ and be saved, does not affect the position of the Believer.
With that said the fallacy of Universalism giving people a license to sin is totally unfounded. Paul addresses this very issue, and it has nothing to do with Universalism.
Rom.6:11-15 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Psalm 118:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: because his mercy endureth for ever.
God's Mercy endures Forever! And forever means forever......
Rose
Hi Rose,
Any doctrines we hold to be biblically sound they must consider the whole counsel of God's word, not just selected verses.
Without a doubt scripture teaches that God is love and "does not want anyone to perish but come to the knowledege of the truth". However the Bible also teaches that God is Holy and Just and as such must judge sin. He judged the sin of the whole world when He put His Son on the cross. But each individual person must of their own free will appropriate what Jesus did for them in paying the penalty for their sin. Even though God loves each and every person He will not force His will on anyone. If you choose to reject God's will for your life He will allow you to suffer the consequences even though it pains Him to see people suffer.
It is not God forcing His will on anyone. That person by his/her own free will choose to reject God and his plan of salvation and so they suffer the consequences. I agree that God goes the extra mile and even more but its still up to each person to respond to God's love.
Hi Clifford,
Now I will address some of the other points you brought up...:winking0071:
Looking at God's will from the highest perspective, everything is made by God so all things operate according to God's plan, man had nothing to do with the creating of God's Laws. To be honest, most people don't know enough about what God's will is to make a conscience decision to accept or reject it. In all reality people are born into this world ignorant, and we spend our lives trying to understand what it's all about. The worse confusion comes with trying to interpret the Bible; there are so many versions and doctrines that it leaves a persons with their head spinning trying to figure it all out. One thing we can be sure of, God did not make it easy, fortunately there is God's Grace and Mercy....without that we would all be sunk.
There is nothing ambiguous about the verses I quoted. They are pretty plain and clear cut. The Bible does not counterdict itself so those verses could not be contrary to the love of God when it is properly understood. It is not God sending people to hell, they are sending themselves by the choices they have made.
Yes there are many scriptures that show God's long-suffering and unwillingness that any should perish. However that does not invalidate those other scriptures that teach the dire consequences for a person if they reject God's love.
People are not sending themselves to Hell! If you believe in Hell, then it's a place God created, not man....and I'm sure I can say with certainty that any man who truly understands the love of God, would not reject it. It just takes a long time for some people, that is why God's Mercy endures Forever!
The Bible can't teach both Mercy and Grace continuing forever, and on the other hand eternal punishment. The very nature of the word Grace means that things which people should be judged for are forgiven. God's Grace covers a multitude of sins and that Grace continues forever, there is no point at which it will be cut off....so if that's the case then there is no point at which God will not accept the lost sheep into the fold...unto eternity!
Great talking with you,
Rose
Hi Rose,
I have asked the questions which goes unanswered. I believe God's grace and mercy abounds but if eventually everyone goes to heaven then what is the lake of fire for? what is Hell for? what is the judgement at the GWT for?, what is Hades for? what is antichrist for? If everyone will eventually be saved all these will not be necessary, Jesus would have died an innocent death for the forgiveness of sin since whether He died on the cross for the sin of the world or not would not matter as eventually all will be saved.
How do you interpret what Clifford have quoted:
"Narrow is gate and straight is the road that leads to life and few find it.
"Broad is the road and wide is the gate that leads to destruction and many choose that way". Matt 7:13-14
"If your right eye causes you to sin gouge it out for it is better for you to enter lift maimed than to be thrown into hell". Matt 5:29
And he will say to the goats on His left "depart from me you who are cursed into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels". Matt 25:41.
Did God draw a line which warns about punishment in hell if one continues to sin and do not repent? Is it ok to continue sinning forever and expecting God to continue to forgive? See what Paul said:
Roamns 6:1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Many Blessings.
Clifford
04-29-2010, 08:12 PM
Hi Clifford,
Now I will address some of the other points you brought up...:winking0071:
Looking at God's will from the highest perspective, everything is made by God so all things operate according to God's plan, man had nothing to do with the creating of God's Laws. To be honest, most people don't know enough about what God's will is to make a conscience decision to accept or reject it. In all reality people are born into this world ignorant, and we spend our lives trying to understand what it's all about. The worse confusion comes with trying to interpret the Bible; there are so many versions and doctrines that it leaves a persons with their head spinning trying to figure it all out. One thing we can be sure of, God did not make it easy, fortunately there is God's Grace and Mercy....without that we would all be sunk.
Hi Rose,
Fortunately, God only requires us to believe on the name of His Son in order to be accepted by Him and made righteous in His eyes. What I mean by a person rejecting God will is a person rejecting the Gospel which in reality is rejecting God's will for their lives, that is where it all begins. Just like Jesus told the Jews who asked Him what they must do to do the works of God and he replied "believe on the One God has sent" (rough paraphrase).
People are not sending themselves to Hell! If you believe in Hell, then it's a place God created, not man....and I'm sure I can say with certainty that any man who truly understands the love of God, would not reject it. It just takes a long time for some people, that is why God's Mercy endures Forever!
People are sending themselves to Hell by the choices they make whether they realize it or not. It would be just like the person who robs a store. He might not be consciencely thinking his action will send him to prison but if he is caught that is where he will probably go.
The Bible can't teach both Mercy and Grace continuing forever, and on the other hand eternal punishment. The very nature of the word Grace means that things which people should be judged for are forgiven. God's Grace covers a multitude of sins and that Grace continues forever, there is no point at which it will be cut off....so if that's the case then there is no point at which God will not accept the lost sheep into the fold...unto eternity!
I don't see any conterdiction between Gods mercy and grace continuing forever and eternal punishment. Those people who will suffer such a fate have rejected His Mercy and Grace so there is nothing left that God can do.
Jesus spoke more about Hell than anyone else in the Bible. He would not have done this if it was not a real place. If you were traveling down a road at night I would not tell you that a bridge a ways down the road was washed out if it were not so. If Hell was not a real place where people could end up end why would Jesus speak about it?
Hi Rose,
Fortunately, God only requires us to believe on the name of His Son in order to be accepted by Him and made righteous in His eyes. What I mean by a person rejecting God will is a person rejecting the Gospel which in reality is rejecting God's will for their lives, that is where it all begins. Just like Jesus told the Jews who asked Him what they must do to do the works of God and he replied "believe on the One God has sent" (rough paraphrase).
People are sending themselves to Hell by the choices they make whether they realize it or not. It would be just like the person who robs a store. He might not be consciencely thinking his action will send him to prison but if he is caught that is where he will probably go.
I don't see any conterdiction between Gods mercy and grace continuing forever and eternal punishment.
Jesus spoke more about Hell than anyone else in the Bible. He would not have done this if it was not a real place. If you were traveling down a road at night I would not tell you that a bridge a ways down the road was washed out if it were not so. If Hell was not a real place where people could end up end why would Jesus speak about it?
I agree absolutely with what Clifford said about people's choice in accepting and rejecting God. Can God do anything if someone just refused to accept Him? or....forced it down his throat and say,"NOW, ACCEPT ME!"
The parable of the rich fool and Lazarus says it all, once you are in Hell, there is no turning back. If someone totally rejected God, he will reject even if God sent an angel or someone from the dead to warn them.
Luke 16:19-31 "Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, living in luxury every day. A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom.
He cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.’
"But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in like manner, bad things. But now here he is comforted and you are in anguish. Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
He said, ‘I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house; for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, so they won’t also come into this place of torment.’
"But Abraham said to him,
‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’
"He said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’
"He said to him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.’"
Many Blessings.
I agree absolutely with what Clifford said about people's choice in accepting and rejecting God. Can God do anything if someone just refused to accept Him? or....forced it down his throat and say,"NOW, ACCEPT ME!"
Hi Cheow,
Well, it seems to me if you believe in Hell and that people go there who do not accept God....then what you're saying is: that God is forcing people to go to Hell, because they sure would not choose to go there on their own!:eek:
Rose
Hi Cheow,
Well, it seems to me if you believe in Hell and that people go there who do not accept God....then what you're saying is: that God is forcing people to go to Hell, because they sure would not choose to go there on their own!:eek:
Rose
Hi Rose, it's the same analogy between people who committed crime that carries a capital punishment. No one wants to die in capital punishment yet they took the risk. If you sell or possess certain amount of narcotics in some countries in the world, you faced the death penalty yet people took the risk and suffered the consequences.
What I am trying to say here is that God did not forced people to go to Hell but it is people's own doings that result if one goes to heaven or one goes to hell. Ample warnings have been given for people to repent and turn from their evil ways and if you do not listen or obey the warnings, they suffer the consequences. This is exactly what the parable of the rich fool and Lazarus is talking about (directly from the mouth of Jesus):
Luke 16:19-31 "Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, living in luxury every day. A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom.
He cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.’
"But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in like manner, bad things. But now here he is comforted and you are in anguish. Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
He said, ‘I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house; for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, so they won’t also come into this place of torment.’
"But Abraham said to him,
‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’
"He said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’
"He said to him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.’"
Many Blessings.
Hi Rose, it's the same analogy between people who committed crime that carries a capital punishment. No one wants to die in capital punishment yet they took the risk. If you sell or possess certain amount of narcotics in some countries in the world, you faced the death penalty yet people took the risk and suffered the consequences.
What I am trying to say here is that God did not forced people to go to Hell but it is people's own doings that result if one goes to heaven or one goes to hell. Ample warnings have been given for people to repent and turn from their evil ways and if you do not listen or obey the warnings, they suffer the consequences. This is exactly what the parable of the rich fool and Lazarus is talking about (directly from the mouth of Jesus):
Luke 16:19-31 "Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, living in luxury every day. A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom.
He cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.’
"But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in like manner, bad things. But now here he is comforted and you are in anguish. Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
He said, ‘I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house; for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, so they won’t also come into this place of torment.’
"But Abraham said to him,
‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’
"He said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’
"He said to him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.’"
Many Blessings.
Hi Cheow,
Where I see your analogy breaking down is that the criminal chooses to commit the crime knowing full well the consequences, that is quite different from being born into this world. When we are born into this world we know nothing....what we learn is totally dependent on where we are born and who our parents are. If we are born to Muslim parents most likely we would be taught the Koran, or if we were born in India we might be taught Hinduism and be part of the Caste system. Whatever the case may be it is through no choice of our own, unlike the person who chooses the life of crime.
If you believe in Hell, then you must believe God created it and most definitely sends people there....no one in their right mind would choose to go there on their own!
Rose
When I was doing Apologetic studies, we were told that God is just and fair. For those who did not have a chance to hear the Gospel or know Christ, a chance will be given. That chance could be given during the millennium, after which people will be "tested" again by Satan. And a judgement will be done based on what a person have done (most likely inclusive of faith and believe in Christ).
In fact, chances were already given if they were to look at the God's creation deeply only to realize that there is a God that created the world.
To give an analogy, is it fair to judge and punish someone with did a crime knowingly than someone who did it not knowing that it is a crime? Take for example a mentally ill who assaulted someone. Of course, ignorance is no excuse but to punish someone who knew it was a crime the same degree as someone who did not know it was a crime is not very fair. A lesser degree of punishment will be given to the one who did a crime unknowingly. How about those who did a crime repeatedly knowing that it is a crime? He will be locked up for life! as the Bible said where they will be "tormented".
If God is not fair would He have revenged against those killed for Christ in the 5th seal? And in Revelation 19, we saw that, "11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war." God is True, Faithful and Just when he make war against those who rebel against him (the unrepentent and the unbelievers)
Many Blessings
Richard Amiel McGough
05-03-2010, 09:54 PM
When I was doing Apologetic studies, we were told that God is just and fair. For those who did not have a chance to hear the Gospel or know Christ, a chance will be given. That chance could be given during the millennium, after which people will be "tested" again by Satan. And a judgement will be done based on what a person have done (most likely inclusive of faith and believe in Christ).
Are you suggesting a second chance after a person dies?
In fact, chances were already given if they were to look at the God's creation deeply only to realize that there is a God that created the world.
Every theist in the world believes that God created the world. For example, the 1.2 billion Muslims all believe this, and also believe that Jesus is Messiah and born of a virgin. But I suspect you do not think that they will "go to heaven."
To give an analogy, is it fair to judge and punish someone with did a crime knowingly than someone who did it not knowing that it is a crime? Take for example a mentally ill who assaulted someone. Of course, ignorance is no excuse but to punish someone who knew it was a crime the same degree as someone who did not know it was a crime is not very fair. A lesser degree of punishment will be given to the one who did a crime unknowingly. How about those who did a crime repeatedly knowing that it is a crime? He will be locked up for life! as the Bible said where they will be "tormented".
What is the purpose of eternal punishment after folks have already died? I understand that punishment in this life has a good reformatory purpose. But what is the purpose of eternal punishment? What good does it do? If none, then are you saying that God does something for eternity that hurts his creatures and does no good? That doesn't sound like the God of the Bible to me.
If God is not fair would He have revenged against those killed for Christ in the 5th seal? And in Revelation 19, we saw that, "11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war." God is True, Faithful and Just when he make war against those who rebel against him (the unrepentent and the unbelievers)
Many Blessings
Does not Christianity deny the idea of "fairness?" All you did was repent and now you get off for free but other folks have to "pay" for the sins for eternity. Is this fair?
Richard
Hi RAM, see my reply in red:
[QUOTE=RAM;20729]Are you suggesting a second chance after a person dies?
Why Not? Have you heard of the second death? Have you heard of the millennium? Unfortunately, the millennium of the FP is only 40 years.
Every theist in the world believes that God created the world. For example, the 1.2 billion Muslims all believe this, and also believe that Jesus is Messiah and born of a virgin. But I suspect you do not think that they will "go to heaven."
Well, Grace is from God, as long as they did the will of the Father who is in heaven, they will go to heaven. As you have said, "anything is possible with God" right? That's why they will be tested in the millennium, if not why must God allow Satan to be out again tho deceive the nations after the millennium? Might as well lock up Satan forever.
What is the purpose of eternal punishment after folks have already died? I understand that punishment in this life has a good reformatory purpose. But what is the purpose of eternal punishment? What good does it do? If none, then are you saying that God does something for eternity that hurts his creatures and does no good? That doesn't sound like the God of the Bible to me.
What good is the eternal punishment if ultimately, everyone will be saved. What good is the lake of fire if everyone will be saved, what good is hell and hades if everyone will be saved. Eternal punishment, LOF, Hell, Hades will never be used if ultimately everyone will be saved. Might as well don't have them in the first place. What is the use of Satan deceiving people to sin if ultimately everyone will be saved? Yet we all know the Bible warns a lot about eternal punishment in hell, Hades, Satan, lake of fire etc....for what, if everyone will ultimately be saved? Did Christ died in vain for the sin of the world when ultimately all will be saved ? Might as well don't die on the cross, it makes no difference whether dying on the cross or not will forgive the sin of the world when ultimately all sin will be forgiven.
Does not Christianity deny the idea of "fairness?" All you did was repent and now you get off for free but other folks have to "pay" for the sins for eternity. Is this fair?
Is this fair when those who killed God's people will ultimately goes scotch-free? where is the justice? How is God to account and appease those souls in seal 5 who were killed for their witness of the gospels? Have you heard "vengeance is with the Lord"? I would rather that God punish those who killed God's people severely and severely for such a time until they really repent and for those who are incorrigible totally destroyed. THAT IS JUSTICE.
Many Blessings
Charles Wade
05-07-2011, 11:23 AM
I have studied her writings & this does not infer nor mean being re-incarnated over & over til you get it right.In actuality she is referring to the state of your soul being judged @ the death of your body, & the soul goes into the spirit world into a realm where other souls are in their own state of enlightenment. Or into other realms with other souls into a state of dim to darkness.A soul in all these realms are still offered truth & can continue to ascend toward oneness with God {becoming a son} or descend towards the abyss resulting in renewed banishment {Hell} which will occur on the last day of this earth aka "Judgment day.The Goats & the Sheep will be separated on this day of His coming {the rapture}, the last day.Then a new salvation period takes place with a new cleansed earth{lake of fire} and Satan is bound & all demons are reserved for this day as the ungodly are re-banished into outer darkness.They are refined/recycled/redistributed and are confined/imprisoned inside hard matter inside the new earth in a compulsory state of service.adios free will & lots of time to ponder because ascent is just about the only direction left for the ones close to the bottom of the bottomless abyss{all a parable}
Her writings declare that it is not over @ death of the body, but @ the last day.People who believe in soul sleep, will be in a very confused state after death, she exclaims.
8085 Predetermined intervals of time as periods of Salvation....Bertha Dudde - 22.1.1962
To Me a thousand years are like a day.... to Me it is truly irrelevant when you return to Me, how long you remain distant from Me, for I know that you will return to Me one day for sure and then be united with Me forever.... But you yourselves will suffer immeasurably during this time of separation, for only the union with Me is beatitude.... And I love you and therefore would like to shorten your time of wretchedness for your own sakes.... I don't want you to suffer; nevertheless, in My wisdom I recognise the blessing of suffering for you, because it can encourage you to hasten your return to Me, because it can change your attitude and your will. Yet I shall do everything within My power to shorten the duration of your resistance without, however, affecting your free will. For your will itself determines the duration of your distance from Me, and I shall not compel it.... Therefore, although time is irrelevant to Me, the intervals of time in My plan of Salvation which were designated for the development of the souls are nevertheless determined.... that is, the timing of My plan of Salvation is fixed and will be upheld according to My love and wisdom....
Periods of Salvation are planned which are limited, thus time and again new opportunities of development present themselves.... in wise anticipation that the ever new resistance on part of the fallen spiritual world in some respect will also necessitate a new Judgment.... or, that the lawful order, which the opposing spirits totally disregard and thereby prevent all higher development, will need to be restored again from time to time.... These fixed intervals of time are thus `periods of Salvation', which irrevocably will be observed by Me and therefore signify the end of an old and the beginning of a new developmental period, the time of which cannot be ascertained by you humans but which nevertheless can be irrefutably expected by people in times when spiritual progress is no longer discernible.
But it is also part of My eternal plan of Salvation that such knowledge is and will remain unverifiable for people.... For the beginning and end of the various `periods' are so far apart that people lack all knowledge and only the spiritually awakened accept such information as credible.... To Me a thousand years are like a day.... But you humans experience this time as immeasurably long, and you could shorten it for yourselves if only you would seriously strive for your deliverance from the form, which you are indeed able to achieve in your earthly life as a human being.... For all means of help are truly at your disposal, only your will cannot be forced to change your nature into love.... Yet this change into love must be carried out, and you only need a very short time to achieve it.... If a developmental period comes to an end without you having reached your goal, then your fate can be an infinite extension of your state of being distant from God, which is indeed extremely agonising for you but only motivates Me to create ever new possibilities for you.... for the still God-opposing souls.... in order to further your development.... For I know that I will achieve My goal one day, and a concept of time does not exist for Me.... everything is the present for Me.... even the past and the future....
You won't be able to understand this as long as your thinking is still limited. But one day you will understand it and will even find it incomprehensible yourselves that you had resisted Me for so long.... For the unification will irrevocably take place one day, and that also means immeasurable beatitude, in which all past suffering has faded away, in which you only recognise My love with praise and gratitude which pursued you even into the deepest abyss and did not rest until it had reached its goal.... Amen
Richard Amiel McGough
05-08-2011, 10:40 AM
Richard: Bold Black
CHW: Bold Magenta
Richard: Regular
Are you suggesting a second chance after a person dies?
Why Not? Have you heard of the second death? Have you heard of the millennium? Unfortunately, the millennium of the FP is only 40 years.
Great! I was just asking to find out what you thought. There is nothing in the Bible that says our fate is sealed at death. Unfortunately, that didn't stop the supposedly "Bible believing" fundamentalists from claiming it is a fundamental tenet of the faith! And the irony is that the only verse they could find to even remotely support their position (Heb 9:27) doesn't even say what they claim it says.
Every theist in the world believes that God created the world. For example, the 1.2 billion Muslims all believe this, and also believe that Jesus is Messiah and born of a virgin. But I suspect you do not think that they will "go to heaven."
Well, Grace is from God, as long as they did the will of the Father who is in heaven, they will go to heaven. As you have said, "anything is possible with God" right? That's why they will be tested in the millennium, if not why must God allow Satan to be out again tho deceive the nations after the millennium? Might as well lock up Satan forever.
Where does the Bible say anyone will be "tested in the Millennium?" It blows my mind that you feel free to make up doctrines like that. And as for Satan being "locked up" - the purpose was to prevent him from gathering armies to destroy Jerusalem before the appointed time (66-70 AD).
What is the purpose of eternal punishment after folks have already died? I understand that punishment in this life has a good reformatory purpose. But what is the purpose of eternal punishment? What good does it do? If none, then are you saying that God does something for eternity that hurts his creatures and does no good? That doesn't sound like the God of the Bible to me.
What good is the eternal punishment if ultimately, everyone will be saved. What good is the lake of fire if everyone will be saved, what good is hell and hades if everyone will be saved. Eternal punishment, LOF, Hell, Hades will never be used if ultimately everyone will be saved. Might as well don't have them in the first place. What is the use of Satan deceiving people to sin if ultimately everyone will be saved? Yet we all know the Bible warns a lot about eternal punishment in hell, Hades, Satan, lake of fire etc....for what, if everyone will ultimately be saved? Did Christ died in vain for the sin of the world when ultimately all will be saved ? Might as well don't die on the cross, it makes no difference whether dying on the cross or not will forgive the sin of the world when ultimately all sin will be forgiven.
The fact that Christ saved everyone from hell does not mean that hell is meaningless. Your assertion "might as well not die on the cross" is a FUNDAMENTAL ERROR. The Bible teaches that it was through the Cross that Christ saves anyone. Why can't you see something as simple as that? I've explained this to you before a couple of years ago. If the cross was necessary to save people, then the fact that Christ successfully saved everyone does not then make the cross meaningless!
And besides, Hades is from Greek mythology. It is where Zeus imprisoned the Titans and other bad supernatural beings. It is used in the Bible to teach that sins have consequences. Your insistence that those consequences must be eternal or meaningless has no basis in the text.
Does not Christianity deny the idea of "fairness?" All you did was repent and now you get off for free but other folks have to "pay" for the sins for eternity. Is this fair?
Is this fair when those who killed God's people will ultimately goes scotch-free? where is the justice? How is God to account and appease those souls in seal 5 who were killed for their witness of the gospels? Have you heard "vengeance is with the Lord"? I would rather that God punish those who killed God's people severely and severely for such a time until they really repent and for those who are incorrigible totally destroyed. THAT IS JUSTICE.
Punishing people is correct as long as the punishment fits the crime. Eternal punishment for finite crimes is NOT "justice." It is just as bad as not punishing them at all. And besides, where is the "justice" when life-long sinners get off "scot free" after saying some words on their death bed?
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