Should Christians eat Kosher food?

[gilgal]

What are your thoughts?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

What are your thoughts?
No reason not to. But I can't think of any reasons a Christian would think they should.

It's funny how some Christians pick and choose amongst which OT laws they think they should obey and which they freely ignore.

[gilgal]

No reason not to. But I can't think of any reasons a Christian would think they should.

It's funny how some Christians pick and choose amongst which OT laws they think they should obey and which they freely ignore.
My answer is "no" to strict kosher food. But Matthew 15 says it's not what enters the mouth that defiles the man but what comes out of it. But it's talking about washing of hands and I doubt it's related to food. If you drink too much wine that does defile you because you get drunk. Or too much sugar makes you hyper, right?

So let me rephrase the question. Should we watch a diet for a better Christian walk?
I want all the ideas pros and cons listed.

Isaiah 66 was talking about eating swine's flesh (what are you thoughts on that).

[Richard Amiel McGough]

My answer is "no" to strict kosher food. But Matthew 15 says it's not what enters the mouth that defiles the man but what comes out of it. But it's talking about washing of hands and I doubt it's related to food. If you drink too much wine that does defile you because you get drunk. Or too much sugar makes you hyper, right?

So let me rephrase the question. Should we watch a diet for a better Christian walk?
I want all the ideas pros and cons listed.

Isaiah 66 was talking about eating swine's flesh (what are you thoughts on that).
Your thoughts on Matt 15 seem correct. I wouldn't use it as a proof text for the fact that Christians are not under the OT law (including the dietary laws).

Wisdom says we should "watch our diet" to avoid gluttony and all that, but wisdom also teaches us not worry about it or even give it much thought at all:

Matthew 6:31 Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear?'
Isaiah 66 is using swine (a ritually unclean animal in the OT) as a symbol of disregard for God.

Good chatting.

[gilgal]

Your thoughts on Matt 15 seem correct. I wouldn't use it as a proof text for the fact that Christians are not under the OT law (including the dietary laws).

Wisdom says we should "watch our diet" to avoid gluttony and all that, but wisdom also teaches us not worry about it or even give it much thought at all:

Matthew 6:31 Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear?'
Isaiah 66 is using swine (a ritually unclean animal in the OT) as a symbol of disregard for God.

Good chatting.

Hmmm...well the reason Jesus says not to worry, he's referring to us worrying if we're going to eat or not.

First of all when God gives the commandment on certain types of animals allowed to eat he's talking to the nation of Israel. So the first time he's giving this law was to the Israelites. Why didn't he give it to Noah?

He did give certain commandments to Noah regarding food but didn't forbid to eat pork. So from Noah's time the Gentiles pretty much keep Noah's laws. It seems to me that God ordered specific things to the Israelites to make them a peculiar people, different from the Gentiles.


Genesis 9
3Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Everything was permissible.
And let me add that for the first time God allowed man to eat animals. Before I believe man and beast was vegetarian from the day of their creation:


Genesis1
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

[gilgal]

I was hesitating at first, but I finally read Isaiah 66 entirely.

Isaiah 66:17They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
Who would want to taste mouse meat? At a glance I thought God is forbidding these foods. I'm sure you wouldn't mind eating ham or bacon though. God is actually forbidding this ritual. If you read carefully, there's a ritual which he's forbidding.

So recap. God commanded/allowed man to eat fruits and vegetables in Genesis 1:29, 30, allowed man to eat every animal in Genesis 9
3-5, but limited to some animals when he gave the law to Israel through Moses and the Levitical priesthood. I believe since we're under a different priesthood, Jesus Christ through the tribe of Judah we serve a different law.

In acts Peter received a vision from God offering him unclean animals to slay and eat. The vision repeated three times had a symbolical meaning (that there are three Gentiles at the door ready to hear the Gospel), but if Peter would have eaten the food he would not have sinned.


Acts 10
9On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10And he became very hungry, and would have eat en: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat .
14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eat en any thing that is common or unclean.
15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

[Brother Les]

Gilgal
Should Christians eat Kosher food?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What are your thoughts?


For 'Religious' reasons or thinking.... no

For reasons of liking that styl of food and health reasons.... no problem.

But why should 'Christians' call it 'kosher'? That term brings to mind a religious label. Why do 'Secular' Jews eat 'kosher' foods....? certainly not for the 'religious ideals.

[gilgal]

For 'Religious' reasons or thinking.... no

For reasons of liking that styl of food and health reasons.... no problem.

But why should 'Christians' call it 'kosher'? That term brings to mind a religious label. Why do 'Secular' Jews eat 'kosher' foods....? certainly not for the 'religious ideals.

Money's behind this. Religion (more correctly superstition) is tied to money from the clergy (priest, pastor or rabbi...)

[Yeshurun770]

Hey :) firstly thank you to whoever made the Bible wheel website. It is simply amazing to use and I think just blows our mind! So thank you! :thumb:

I think the underlying question on this thread is rather should Christians obey the law. I think this is the biggest issue for these last days. Jesus taught those that love Him to obey even the smallest of the commandments, that is quite clear as we all know the Scriptures. Jesus obeyed the law. Again and again King David said so many times how wonderful the law was. From Isaiah: "to the law and the testimony if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them"

It is a hard teaching because the people of God are, mostly, not taught these things but in these last days the law will be restored. Many will not accept this message, few will. Those who do accept it are the remnant.

In the times of the early Church a teaching begun speaking awful things against God's law. That teaching can still be found in certain books of the New Testament.

The law brought Holiness to the people of God. Let us be Holy as our Heavenly Father is Holy. Faith without works is dead. If we want to be the people of God we must walk as Jesus did, that means obeying the law to the full and that is wonderful!! :)

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hey :) firstly thank you to whoever made the Bible wheel website. It is simply amazing to use and I think just blows our mind! So thank you! :thumb:

Welcome to our forum Yeshurun770,

:welcome:

And thank you for your kind words. I am the person who put together the site, but there are lots of folks who have helped me along the way. My wife has contributed greatly, and my friends on this forum of course.



I think the underlying question on this thread is rather should Christians obey the law. I think this is the biggest issue for these last days. Jesus taught those that love Him to obey even the smallest of the commandments, that is quite clear as we all know the Scriptures. Jesus obeyed the law. Again and again King David said so many times how wonderful the law was. From Isaiah: "to the law and the testimony if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them"

It is a hard teaching because the people of God are, mostly, not taught these things but in these last days the law will be restored. Many will not accept this message, few will. Those who do accept it are the remnant.

In the times of the early Church a teaching begun speaking awful things against God's law. That teaching can still be found in certain books of the New Testament.

The law brought Holiness to the people of God. Let us be Holy as our Heavenly Father is Holy. Faith without works is dead. If we want to be the people of God we must walk as Jesus did, that means obeying the law to the full and that is wonderful!! :)
Before responding to the rest of your comments, it would help if you could explain what you meant by the words I highlighted red. Could you give me a few examples of what you meant by that?

Thanks!

Richard

[gilgal]

Welcome to our forum Yeshurun770,

:welcome:

And thank you for your kind words. I am the person who put together the site, but there are lots of folks who have helped me along the way. My wife has contributed greatly, and my friends on this forum of course.


Before responding to the rest of your comments, it would help if you could explain what you meant by the words I highlighted red. Could you give me a few examples of what you meant by that?

Thanks!

Richard
My guess is James, since it says

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Let me give you my opinion on this. First I don't remember if James made any comment on eating kosher. But even if he meant to include I take notice that in the first verse:

James 1:1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
But when James addressed to the gentiles in Acts 15 he said something different:

Acts 15
13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

22Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

25It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

30So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:

31Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
For this, and a few other scriptures Christians today are divided on the subject of eating kosher.

[alec cotton]

I for one am staggered by the fact that so many people fiercely resist the notion of submitting to the laws of God. Some seem to think that we are at liberty to pick and choose at random. When it comes to the so called food laws It seems thst most Christians think that they are at liberty to drive a coach and horses through. God did not issue his laws on a whim . Everything in his law is for the benefit of his children. I hear the objection on a regular basis ; 'We are not under law now but under grace.. We are justified by faith not works'. Whilst that is true it leads into error. This is how it works . I have faith in God . I have every confidence in him When he says , do this , I do it. When he says don't do that I don't do it. When I do the works of the law I demonstrate my faith .If I think for one minute that the works which I do ,or the offerings which I offer or the sacrifices that I make will pay for my sin then that is where I fall on my face. God says 'Don.'t eat shell fish and so .I leave it alone. He tells me not to eat raw meat ,so I don't. He says refrain from animals which do not chew the cud or cleave the foot . I don't argue. Grasshoppers and locusts are a bit crisp and crunchy but they are healthier to eat than bacon or rabbit stew. I don't like fried cockroaches much ; They are hard to cook, they explode in the pan. Circumcision was mentioned earlier in this thread. Some of the early Christians were insisting on it as a prerequisite of salvation. , just as some people today insist that water baptism is a prerequisite. It was never so. A righteous Gentile would always inherit eternal life before an evil jew . It is not the hearers of the law , but the doers of the law who are justified. When I keep the law of God ,then I benefit by it . When I break his law I suffer not only the penalty but the consequences. Excessive drinking was mentioned earlier in this thread. IT IS A Sin . It is rank folly. A man drinks to alter his awareness of his environment. Awareness is wisdom . To be unaware is folly. When a man is totally drunk ,he is totally unaware and consequently utterly stupid. I have often heard men say,' I was stupid drunk last night . I was legless. I had a marvellous night , I don't remember a thing ' How daft can you get?.
Well that is my contribution for what it's worth . Kindest regards to you all.
Alec

[Rose]

I for one am staggered by the fact that so many people fiercely resist the notion of submitting to the laws of God. Some seem to think that we are at liberty to pick and choose at random. When it comes to the so called food laws It seems thst most Christians think that they are at liberty to drive a coach and horses through. God did not issue his laws on a whim . Everything in his law is for the benefit of his children. I hear the objection on a regular basis ; 'We are not under law now but under grace.. We are justified by faith not works'. Whilst that is true it leads into error. This is how it works . I have faith in God . I have every confidence in him When he says , do this , I do it. When he says don't do that I don't do it. When I do the works of the law I demonstrate my faith .If I think for one minute that the works which I do ,or the offerings which I offer or the sacrifices that I make will pay for my sin then that is where I fall on my face. God says 'Don.'t eat shell fish and so .I leave it alone. He tells me not to eat raw meat ,so I don't. He says refrain from animals which do not chew the cud or cleave the foot . I don't argue. Grasshoppers and locusts are a bit crisp and crunchy but they are healthier to eat than bacon or rabbit stew. I don't like fried cockroaches much ; They are hard to cook, they explode in the pan. Circumcision was mentioned earlier in this thread. Some of the early Christians were insisting on it as a prerequisite of salvation. , just as some people today insist that water baptism is a prerequisite. It was never so. A righteous Gentile would always inherit eternal life before an evil jew . It is not the hearers of the law , but the doers of the law who are justified. When I keep the law of God ,then I benefit by it . When I break his law I suffer not only the penalty but the consequences. Excessive drinking was mentioned earlier in this thread. IT IS A Sin . It is rank folly. A man drinks to alter his awareness of his environment. Awareness is wisdom . To be unaware is folly. When a man is totally drunk ,he is totally unaware and consequently utterly stupid. I have often heard men say,' I was stupid drunk last night . I was legless. I had a marvellous night , I don't remember a thing ' How daft can you get?.
Well that is my contribution for what it's worth . Kindest regards to you all.
Alec

Yes, Alec I agree...the principle use of a pigskin is to keep the pig together, just as the principle use of a cowskin is to keep the cow together, and on and on it goes....:winking0071: Beyond that we are free to eat BBQ Pork Chops or Beef Steaks (in moderation of course...:p) which ever suits your taste, and to have a mug of beer with friends to wash it down...:anim_32:

I cannot for the life of me figure out why you want to put yourself under such bondage - WE ARE NOT JEWS LIVING UNDER THE OLD COVENANT! There was a time and a place for keeping the Law, and that time has come and gone long ago.

I encourage you Alec to live in the freedom Christ has given you, get out from underneath the bondage of the law you live in, and follow your heart instead of the religious doctrines you have been taught. It is far more important to love your neighbor, than to worry about what you eat or drink.

Many blessings to you my friend,
Rose

[Yeshurun770]

Welcome to our forum Yeshurun770,

:welcome:

And thank you for your kind words. I am the person who put together the site, but there are lots of folks who have helped me along the way. My wife has contributed greatly, and my friends on this forum of course.


Before responding to the rest of your comments, it would help if you could explain what you meant by the words I highlighted red. Could you give me a few examples of what you meant by that?

Thanks!

Richard

Hi Richard, yes thank you again for the site and to your wife and friends, it is incredibly useful and amazing as I said :)

Yes well tbh I dont want to get into a debate, I just wanted to write what I did, but as you are my brother I will answer that. I think Gilgal (hello :) ) said it may have been James, but know I certainly did not mean James, one of the most special of the disciples and apostles who walked side by side with our King. I meant the books/letters attributed to Paul. While he spoke many right things he also said wrong when he spoke of the law and consequently much harm has been done.

I think the best examples to quickly touch upon with this whole issue is the seventh day Saturday Sabbath. One of the ten commandments even and yet so few obey it, few teach it, few understand it. The people of God are in a dreadful mess and overflowing with hypocrisy and God is very very angry with their shepherds and will lead them Himself as the prophecies state, and I thank God who is so wonderful and powerful (of which so many examples can be found in this wonderful website) that He is about to restore them and yes for those that are willing to accept it and want to honour God you should be circumcised. During the 1000 year reign we are about to enter men must be circumcised of both the heart and flesh as Ezekiel was told if they are to enter the Sanctuary.

Then, at the restoration of all things God will have a people who love Him, love His Son, love their brothers, love the law having it written on their hearts and understand it and really live as Jesus did. Boy am I looking forward to that!! :) :) Blessed be our Father!

Thank you again for this comprehensive site and I hope that answered your question. As I said though I would not like any debate so will leave what I have said as my last here - I'm only 24 too so do not wish to have any arguments or anything :)

Just to add, someone added above that the law is bondage - this grieves me so so so much - grief to the point of utter sorrow and distress and our Father and King must be so sad too at things like this. The law does not bring bondage, the law brings holiness to the people of God. God did not bring the Israelites out of Egypt to put them back under bondage. He brought them out to make them Holy, to make a covenant with them, to show them His power and His greatness. The law perfects those born of the Spirit and the flesh. Anyway...please I plead with you listen to the words of Jesus, follow Jesus. Soon those tablets will be shown to the whole world and once again the law and word of God will go forth from Jerusalem. Obey the law for in doing so you are made great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

[gilgal]

Hi Richard, yes thank you again for the site and to your wife and friends, it is incredibly useful and amazing as I said :)

Yes well tbh I dont want to get into a debate, I just wanted to write what I did, but as you are my brother I will answer that. I think Gilgal (hello :) ) said it may have been James, but know I certainly did not mean James, one of the most special of the disciples and apostles who walked side by side with our King. I meant the books/letters attributed to Paul. While he spoke many right things he also said wrong when he spoke of the law and consequently much harm has been done.

I think the best examples to quickly touch upon with this whole issue is the seventh day Saturday Sabbath. One of the ten commandments even and yet so few obey it, few teach it, few understand it. The people of God are in a dreadful mess and overflowing with hypocrisy and God is very very angry with their shepherds and will lead them Himself as the prophecies state, and I thank God who is so wonderful and powerful (of which so many examples can be found in this wonderful website) that He is about to restore them and yes for those that are willing to accept it and want to honour God you should be circumcised. During the 1000 year reign we are about to enter men must be circumcised of both the heart and flesh as Ezekiel was told if they are to enter the Sanctuary.

Then, at the restoration of all things God will have a people who love Him, love His Son, love their brothers, love the law having it written on their hearts and understand it and really live as Jesus did. Boy am I looking forward to that!! :) :) Blessed be our Father!

Thank you again for this comprehensive site and I hope that answered your question. As I said though I would not like any debate so will leave what I have said as my last here - I'm only 24 too so do not wish to have any arguments or anything :)

Just to add, someone added above that the law is bondage - this grieves me so so so much - grief to the point of utter sorrow and distress and our Father and King must be so sad too at things like this. The law does not bring bondage, the law brings holiness to the people of God. God did not bring the Israelites out of Egypt to put them under bondage. He brought them out to make them Holy, to make them His people, to show them His power. The law perfects those born of the Spirit and the flesh. Anyway...please I plead with you listen to the words of Jesus, follow Jesus. Soon those tablets will be shown to the whole world and once again the law and word of God will go forth from Jerusalem. Obey the law for in doing so you are made great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Well, Yeshurun770. You have to explain the difference between James and Acts 15. As well as the Hebrews passage where it says that since we have a high priest after the order of Melkizedek then we don't follow the Aaronic/Levitical laws. You should elaborate on these things. So where are your sacrifices? Where's the temple? For 2000 years there was no temple. These things have to be explained.

[alec cotton]

Yes, Alec I agree...the principle use of a pigskin is to keep the pig together, just as the principle use of a cowskin is to keep the cow together, and on and on it goes....:winking0071: Beyond that we are free to eat BBQ Pork Chops or Beef Steaks (in moderation of course...:p) which ever suits your taste, and to have a mug of beer with friends to wash it down...:anim_32:

I cannot for the life of me figure out why you want to put yourself under such bondage - WE ARE NOT JEWS LIVING UNDER THE OLD COVENANT! There was a time and a place for keeping the Law, and that time has come and gone long ago.

I encourage you Alec to live in the freedom Christ has given you, get out from underneath the bondage of the law you live in, and follow your heart instead of the religious doctrines you have been taught. It is far more important to love your neighbor, than to worry about what you eat or drink.

Many blessings to you my friend,
Rose

It is hard to know where to start so I will begin at the end. Where you say trust in the Lord (Jehovah/Jesus) with all your heart . Then earlier you said Ignore his teaching and follow your heart. ' Follow your heart instead of the religious doctrines which you have been taught' That assumes that I have swallowed all the guff that I have heard and am incapable of using my own judgement. The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. I refuse to follow its dictates. As for the conscience ; That is useless as a guide. The conscience is a built in faculty which each individual conditions and when a man goes against that conditioning it pricks in a most uncomfortable way. To calibrate the conscience ,a standard is essential. You did not address or refute one word of my post. Your reply leaves a vacuum. What are your parameters Where are your boundaries. By what laws, rules, instructions ,dictates or directions do you live?.
Then you say 'beyond that we are free to eat bbq chops washed down with a mug of beer. '
Of course we are free. We are free to drink blood ,eat raw meat, meat offered to idols and things strangled. We are free to oppress ,steal , hate and kill. I fiercely oppose drinking alcohol for fun because of the devastating effects it has on people. You may chuckle and simper indulgently but my heart bleeds. You recommend that I get out from under the bondage of the law that I live in. I am a bondslave of Christ. In the year of jubilee I had my ear pierced against the doorpost and can never be free from my master again.
Alec

[Rose]

It is hard to know where to start so I will begin at the end. Where you say trust in the Lord (Jehovah/Jesus) with all your heart . Then earlier you said Ignore his teaching and follow your heart. ' Follow your heart instead of the religious doctrines which you have been taught' That assumes that I have swallowed all the guff that I have heard and am incapable of using my own judgement. The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. I refuse to follow its dictates. As for the conscience ; That is useless as a guide. The conscience is a built in faculty which each individual conditions and when a man goes against that conditioning it pricks in a most uncomfortable way. To calibrate the conscience ,a standard is essential.
Hi Alec,

Do you know what using your own judgment means? It means following your heart - that's what your conscience is!


You did not address or refute one word of my post. Your reply leaves a vacuum. What are your parameters Where are your boundaries. By what laws, rules, instructions ,dictates or directions do you live?. Then you say 'beyond that we are free to eat bbq chops washed down with a mug of beer. '
Of course we are free. We are free to drink blood ,eat raw meat, meat offered to idols and things strangled. We are free to oppress ,steal , hate and kill. I fiercely oppose drinking alcohol for fun because of the devastating effects it has on people. You may chuckle and simper indulgently but my heart bleeds. You recommend that I get out from under the bondage of the law that I live in. I am a bondslave of Christ. In the year of jubilee I had my ear pierced against the doorpost and can never be free from my master again.
Alec

I think you forget what true freedom in Christ really means. The Law was given to the Jews as a "Schoolmaster", that which was to lead them to Christ - not to continually keep them under bondage. Laws are needed to control people who's hearts are wicked, that is why societies create laws, to control people. If everyone treated their neighbor as themselves the world would indeed be a better place.

If I have truly been made a new creation in Christ, then my actions should reflect that, I should not need laws to keep me from sinning. It is not that I can never be free from Christ, but rather I do not wish to be free from Christ - He is not keeping me bound in chains.

Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

It is hard to know where to start so I will begin at the end. Where you say trust in the Lord (Jehovah/Jesus) with all your heart . Then earlier you said Ignore his teaching and follow your heart. ' Follow your heart instead of the religious doctrines which you have been taught' That assumes that I have swallowed all the guff that I have heard and am incapable of using my own judgement. The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. I refuse to follow its dictates. As for the conscience ; That is useless as a guide. The conscience is a built in faculty which each individual conditions and when a man goes against that conditioning it pricks in a most uncomfortable way. To calibrate the conscience ,a standard is essential. You did not address or refute one word of my post. Your reply leaves a vacuum. What are your parameters Where are your boundaries. By what laws, rules, instructions ,dictates or directions do you live?.

Hey there Alec,

I'm sorry to hear that your heart is still "desperately wicked." But there is hope in the Gospel, as it is written:
1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such WERE some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
And you claim your conscience is defiled and useless as a guide? Heed the Word of God!
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
Receive the Gospel and begin to trust the voice of God that speaks in your freshly cleansed heart that no longer is a slave of sin and darkness, no longer deceitful, no longer desperately wicked, but rather is a fountain of light since you have been seated with Christ in the heavenlies and filled with the Spirit of God:
John 7:37 On the last day of the festival, the great day, while Jesus was standing there, he cried out, "Let anyone who is thirsty come to me, 38 and let the one who believes in me drink. As the scripture has said, 'Out of the believer's heart shall flow rivers of living water.'" 39 Now he said this about the Spirit, which believers in him were to receive; for as yet there was no Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
How is it that you remain in bondage to sin and commandments?
Colossians 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Be FREE IN CHRIST ALEC!!! That's what the Gospel is all about.

Richard

[Mad Mick]

Yeah, Yeshurun 7somethin 70,
I'll break you in quick smart!
If you come here and talk about Law!!!
I know Satan will suck your proverbialls, if you can uphold the least part of the law!
Hold on for a minute, what? You come here opening your mouth to the Lord speaking things you cannot do; nor do you annul yourself for such an onslaught! Satan loves to penetrate pretty boys like you for breakfast!

==========MODERATOR NOTICE=============

I'm sorry Mick, but your post was over the top in
rudeness. I let the first few lines remain so folks
can see what I am talking about. But I will not allow
such posts in the future. They are rude, gross, hurtful,
and good for nothing. You need to get a grip on your
self.

==========MODERATOR NOTICE=============

[gilgal]

Hi Richard, yes thank you again for the site and to your wife and friends, it is incredibly useful and amazing as I said :)

Yes well tbh I dont want to get into a debate, I just wanted to write what I did, but as you are my brother I will answer that. I think Gilgal (hello :) ) said it may have been James, but know I certainly did not mean James, one of the most special of the disciples and apostles who walked side by side with our King. I meant the books/letters attributed to Paul. While he spoke many right things he also said wrong when he spoke of the law and consequently much harm has been done.

I think the best examples to quickly touch upon with this whole issue is the seventh day Saturday Sabbath. One of the ten commandments even and yet so few obey it, few teach it, few understand it. The people of God are in a dreadful mess and overflowing with hypocrisy and God is very very angry with their shepherds and will lead them Himself as the prophecies state, and I thank God who is so wonderful and powerful (of which so many examples can be found in this wonderful website) that He is about to restore them and yes for those that are willing to accept it and want to honour God you should be circumcised. During the 1000 year reign we are about to enter men must be circumcised of both the heart and flesh as Ezekiel was told if they are to enter the Sanctuary.

Then, at the restoration of all things God will have a people who love Him, love His Son, love their brothers, love the law having it written on their hearts and understand it and really live as Jesus did. Boy am I looking forward to that!! :) :) Blessed be our Father!

Thank you again for this comprehensive site and I hope that answered your question. As I said though I would not like any debate so will leave what I have said as my last here - I'm only 24 too so do not wish to have any arguments or anything :)

Just to add, someone added above that the law is bondage - this grieves me so so so much - grief to the point of utter sorrow and distress and our Father and King must be so sad too at things like this. The law does not bring bondage, the law brings holiness to the people of God. God did not bring the Israelites out of Egypt to put them back under bondage. He brought them out to make them Holy, to make a covenant with them, to show them His power and His greatness. The law perfects those born of the Spirit and the flesh. Anyway...please I plead with you listen to the words of Jesus, follow Jesus. Soon those tablets will be shown to the whole world and once again the law and word of God will go forth from Jerusalem. Obey the law for in doing so you are made great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Where among the prophets does God condemn Israel for not eating kosher? What I mean is he condemns on all the 10 commandments broken. But, I don't recall anything said on eating kosher.

[CandF]

First of all, thanks to RAM and your family for your time and effort on this site. And for sharing your e-book for free. It downloaded beautifully and I look forward to reading it.

I think on one of the previous posts someone questioned why Noah wasn't given the clean laws? He was...


(Gen 7:1-3) And YHWH said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
Gen 7:5 And Noah did according unto all that YHWH commanded him.

Interesting to note how taking in the clean animals by seven is usually left off the retelling of this story.

Should we follow the law? Personally, if in doubt, I like to use the Messiah as an example...


Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The Messiah says since heaven and earth have not passed away...then neither has the law...not even the smallest iota.


(Luk 13:23-28) Then said one unto him, Rabbi, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Master, Master, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of YHWH, and you yourselves thrust out.

These people in Luke 13 thought they were doing right by YHWH. They thought that they knew Him. But YHWH put them out of His mind...and out of His kingdom.


(Mat 7:21-23) Not every one that saith unto me, My master, my master, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, My master, my master, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What is iniquity? It is lawlessness


(Psa 94:20) Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee, which frameth mischief by a law?
The Jews have made a list of all the laws of the bible and they say it totals around 600. Some of these were only for the priests, some are just for men, some are just for women, some are just for children, some are just for wives, some are just for husbands...etc. So of that approximately 600, only some of them are related to each of us.

Yet the laws that man have chosen are in the tens of 1,000's!!!! With new laws formed on a continuous basis and they are often unfair and oppressive, even snuck in under the guise of unrelated laws, not to mention clearly anti-biblical. How is it that we can choose to put ourselves under the law and oppression of man, and call YHWH a burden?


(Jer 23:34-40) And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of YHWH, I will even punish that man and his house. Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath YHWH answered? and, What hath YHWH spoken? And the burden of YHWH shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living Elohim, of YHWH of hosts our Elohim. Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath YHWH answered thee? and, What hath YHWH spoken? But since ye say, The burden of YHWH; therefore thus saith YHWH; Because ye say this word, The burden of YHWH, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of YHWH;
Jer 23:39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence: And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

(Mal 2:7-10) For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of YHWH of hosts. But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith YHWH of hosts. Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law. Have we not all one father? hath not one El created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?


Mal 2:17 Ye have wearied YHWH with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of YHWH, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the Elohim of judgment?


(Mal 3:13-14) Your words have been stout against me, saith YHWH. Yet ye say, What have we spoken so much against thee? Ye have said, It is vain to serve Elohim: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before YHWH of hosts?

In a dire warning, it says here to remember the law of Moses, or else suffer the curse in that dreadful day of YHWH.


(Mal 4:4) Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you EliYah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of YHWH: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.


(Jas 2:19-26) Thou believest that there is one Elohim; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed YHWH, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of YHWH. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

From the Messiah


(Joh 15:9-10) As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.