View Full Version : John Hagee predicts more doom and gloom
TheForgiven
03-24-2010, 09:08 AM
Hello everyone! I hope you all don't mind me starting a topic on the well known John Hagee.
Last night as I retired to bed, I happened to come across his show where he spoke about Revelation 9:
13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. 19 For their power[a] is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.
According to John Hagee, this is a representation of China. :eek: He believes that the red and yellow represents their flag, as shown here:
http://www.worldmapsinfo.com/flags/1205815591fChina_flag%281%29.gif
I don't remember his connection with the color blue, but if I'm not mistaken, "Blue" is China's most popular color, or it had something to do with a uniform. I must apologize for my inability to recall the connection of China and Blue.
Lastly, he states that the fire breathing that comes from their mouths as indicated in the passage above represents the Chinese dragons used during ceremonies. :eek:
His basic prediction is that China is going to become the next world superpower, destroy the United States (after the Christians are Raptured), and they would team up with Iran to destroy Israel. But first, the president of Iran has to obtain at least 5 to 7 Nuclear bombs in order to destroy Israel, and the following US targets:
1. Miami
2. New York
3. Houston Tx
4. California
I don't remember the rest he mentioned.....again I apologize for not remembering all the details.
What does this all mean folks? You decide. I'd like to personally ask John why he feels that Israel is so important to China. Other than the fact that the entire world loves Israel for its history, but what possible economical importance would geographical Israel even serve China? Absolutely nothing! China is a growing economical economy. But it's military is still behind the technological curve. Even so, I'm quite confident that they have very little interest in trying to overtake Israel. And I doubt very seriously that their plans include joining with a self proclaimed terrorists who is basically nothing more than a big mouth trying to stir up trouble via media and propaganda....I'm referring to the President of Iran. Is he a problem? Well sure. But I'm certain you could find more trouble in our land when compared to Iran's President.
John Hagee shows his ignorance in that he's interpreting Revelation in a modern day fashion where the early church would have had absolutely NO IDEA what St. John was prophesying about. Not to mention that John Hagee shows an obvious error that he would not be able to explain. The "Trumpets" were not attacks on the world, but upon Apostate Israel which contained false Jews. The chosen Jews part of the 12 Tribes of Israel were sealed from this wrath. Not so with those who were not sealed. Those Tribes don't exist anymore, so how (or why) would Christ blow a trumpet of disaster upon a land with Tribes that no longer exist? This was obviously fulfilled in the first century WHEN THE TRIBES DID EXIST! Each Tribe showed a figurative number of 12,000 sealed; these would be spared from the coming woes, trumpets, and bowls of wrath, etc.
John Hagee needs to come to this forum and take some lessons because his interpretations remind me too much of Charles Manson.
Sound off Church!
Joe
Thanks Joe,
Sounds interesting and inspiring. Of course, I don't believe in everything he said.
13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, 'Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.' 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. 19 For their power[a] is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.
According to John Hagee, this is a representation of China. He believes that the red and yellow represents their flag, as shown here:
I don't remember his connection with the color blue, but if I'm not mistaken, "Blue" is China's most popular color, or it had something to do with a uniform.
What about the 200 million man army? What about the kings from the east...from Gog and Magog? what about the 1,000 year reign? what about the Euphrates drying up? etc.
Many Blessings.
TheForgiven
03-25-2010, 08:12 AM
Thanks Joe,
Sounds interesting and inspiring. Of course, I don't believe in everything he said.
Inspiring? Not me. :lol: You can't take this guy serious. He's been wrong too many times before, so why would anyone who has a history of being wrong have any amount of credibility?
Quote:
13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. 19 For their power[a] is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.
According to John Hagee, this is a representation of China. He believes that the red and yellow represents their flag, as shown here:
I don't remember his connection with the color blue, but if I'm not mistaken, "Blue" is China's most popular color, or it had something to do with a uniform.
What about the 200 million man army? What about the kings from the east...from Gog and Magog? what about the 1,000 year reign? what about the Euphrates drying up? etc.
Does it have to be exactly 200,000,000 million? In the Old Testament, there are references to large numbers of hills, such as a 1000 hills, etc. But are these exactly a thousand hills? Come on brother Cheow, you can't be serious. What nation builds a military with exactly 200,000,000 million men? Why not 205,514,322 million, give or take a couple of Trillion? :confused:
Now, the kings from the east was a picture of Titus and his allies gathering at the Euphrates river and planning an attack towards Jerusalem from the North. Others marches from the South.
What does China have to do with Gog and Magog? Most Futurist's apply this towards Russia. So are we to believe that Russia and China are going to gang up on poor little geographical Israel?
I understand your reasons for believing this (or something like this), but you've got to have some common sense and practicality in your beliefs brother Choew. What possible reason would they have to gain in attacking Israel? Neither China nor Russia are that religiously dominated that they act in accordance with Muslim standards in initiating some form of genocide or torment for the sake of gaining control of a land that would have no financial or economic profit. What you and believers like you are suggesting, based on your interpretations of Revelation is a Religious war; something neither Russia or China would care to engage in. Now there have been mass genocides in Russia (Kurds, Muslims, Greeks, European Jews, etc.), but this is by no means a religious battle; at least not in the sense of Revelation.
I bet China, if they heard of John Hagee's predictions, would be laughing and rolling at this stuff. Who would have thought that China, and it's million man army, would waste so much time, resource, and effort in their thickening plans to invade little Israel. And why? Because the Futurist's (some anyways) believe it will happen. :hysterical:
This is too much movie magic, if you don't mind me saying.
Joe
Hi Joe,
Look at the mention of 200 million army and John confirmed that the number was right. I believe John couldn't believed the number of 200 million army at that time. Currently, the whole world combined have almost 200 million army. When in the 1st century was a third of mankind killed? Obviously, the battle of Jerusalem in AD 70 did not caused a third of the population of the Roman empire estimated at 15 million people out of a total of 50 million to be wiped out. You can't be serious Joe.
13The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." 15And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16The number of the mounted troops was [B]two hundred million. I heard their number.
Many Blessings.
TheForgiven
03-25-2010, 02:31 PM
Brother Choew, if you haven't looked at the literal passage in question, then here's your chance my fellow brother:
Revelation 9:16 (Young's Literal Translation)
16and the number of the forces of the horsemen [is] two myriads of myriads, and I heard the number of them.
In exact English, it would read, "and the number of the forces of the horemen ten thousands of two thousands; I heard their number.
Was John stating an exact number here? Or using an exaggerated expression to simply say, "An enormously large army!" The answer is obvious, for if John were trying to provide an exact head count of the attackers, would he not have given the exact number? As you can see from the literal translation, no exact 200,000,000 million man army was given.
If you choose to keep looking for the so called "200,000,000 million man army", then you'll be waiting forever; trust me, it'll never happen in your life time. No country in the world could support such a large army. And the world is too divided religiously and economically to engage in unified combat. And keep this mind. What possible logical, or reason would the entire world have against a small land you call Israel? This is pure fiction, and quite frankly, absurd....no pun intended towards you.
Teachers like Hagee claim that Russia, China, and Iran will fight against little tiny Israel. But I doubt very seriously that all of their military would be large enough to constitute a 200,000,000 million man army; not now, not ever.
I feel sorry for you brother. Anyone trapped with this kind of perception will only find disappointment from one failed prediction after another. And if this idea is true (200,000,000 million man army), I can confidently say that the Lord's return cannot be anytime soon; especially in our day. Why? Because our world is far too divided unite against a tiny nation called Israel, and build an army so vast and so large; large enough to engage in non-nonsensical combat against a tiny nation that has very little economical value. Sure geographical Israel has historical value to those of us who are Christian. But the non-Christians see absolutely no value in geographical Israel. Therefore, what makes you believe that China would engage with Russia against geographical Israel? Sure we know why the Muslims do; they feel that the land belongs to them. But they don't even come close to accidentally having a large enough army to fight against Israel.
And let's not forget one important military fact. ISRAEL HAS NUKES, WAR PLANES, AND A PRETTY GOOD MILITARY. Iran has zilch! Notta! Their only source of threat comes from a crazed people strapping themselves with nitroglycerin and home made bombs. So this entire notion of a literal 200,000,000 million man army is purely fictional.
In conclusion, Revelation 9:16 is not an exact figure of the army, but an adjective describing the immense size of this attack against Apostate Israel. And given the fact that more than a million Jews were killed in the first century, during a 3.5 year period (give or take), I'm sure it took a lot more soldiers to accomplish this kind of victory (slaughtering more than a million Jews). It's not as though a few thousand Roman solders marched against Israel and slaughtered a million Jews; Rome was not THAT powerful. Besides, they had a great deal of help from the other nations.
Good luck brother Cheow. But I promise you'll never see an army that large. :lol:
Joe
Edward Goodie
03-25-2010, 03:10 PM
Brother Choew, if you haven't looked at the literal passage in question, then here's your chance my fellow brother:
Revelation 9:16 (Young's Literal Translation)
16and the number of the forces of the horsemen [is] two myriads of myriads, and I heard the number of them.
In exact English, it would read, "and the number of the forces of the horemen ten thousands of two thousands; I heard their number.
Was John stating an exact number here? Or using an exaggerated expression to simply say, "An enormously large army!" The answer is obvious, for if John were trying to provide an exact head count of the attackers, would he not have given the exact number? As you can see from the literal translation, no exact 200,000,000 million man army was given.
If you choose to keep looking for the so called "200,000,000 million man army", then you'll be waiting forever; trust me, it'll never happen in your life time. No country in the world could support such a large army. And the world is too divided religiously and economically to engage in unified combat. And keep this mind. What possible logical, or reason would the entire world have against a small land you call Israel? This is pure fiction, and quite frankly, absurd....no pun intended towards you.
Teachers like Hagee claim that Russia, China, and Iran will fight against little tiny Israel. But I doubt very seriously that all of their military would be large enough to constitute a 200,000,000 million man army; not now, not ever.
I feel sorry for you brother. Anyone trapped with this kind of perception will only find disappointment from one failed prediction after another. And if this idea is true (200,000,000 million man army), I can confidently say that the Lord's return cannot be anytime soon; especially in our day. Why? Because our world is far too divided unite against a tiny nation called Israel, and build an army so vast and so large; large enough to engage in non-nonsensical combat against a tiny nation that has very little economical value. Sure geographical Israel has historical value to those of us who are Christian. But the non-Christians see absolutely no value in geographical Israel. Therefore, what makes you believe that China would engage with Russia against geographical Israel? Sure we know why the Muslims do; they feel that the land belongs to them. But they don't even come close to accidentally having a large enough army to fight against Israel.
And let's not forget one important military fact. ISRAEL HAS NUKES, WAR PLANES, AND A PRETTY GOOD MILITARY. Iran has zilch! Notta! Their only source of threat comes from a crazed people strapping themselves with nitroglycerin and home made bombs. So this entire notion of a literal 200,000,000 million man army is purely fictional.
In conclusion, Revelation 9:16 is not an exact figure of the army, but an adjective describing the immense size of this attack against Apostate Israel. And given the fact that more than a million Jews were killed in the first century, during a 3.5 year period (give or take), I'm sure it took a lot more soldiers to accomplish this kind of victory (slaughtering more than a million Jews). It's not as though a few thousand Roman solders marched against Israel and slaughtered a million Jews; Rome was not THAT powerful. Besides, they had a great deal of help from the other nations.
Good luck brother Cheow. But I promise you'll never see an army that large. :lol:
Joe
Cheow, symbolism my friend, within a very symbolic book...it is a very difficult lesson but consistent with many the OT metaphors, figures and symbols there too...
Do you really believe the moon shone like the sun and the sun got seven times brighter back in Isaiah's day? Do you really believe that?
Isaiah 30:26 - Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
I am surprised Joe,
The 200 million man army is not fighting against the country of Israel, they are fighting against God. I agree with you the land of Israel is insignificant. They are fighting against God because they do not want God to rule over them, they do not want to lose their way of luxuriant, decadent way of life, their properties, their families.
Imagine that there is an invasion from outer space (I am not a Star War craze) in which aliens intent to rule over us and we are going to lose our properties, way of life etc. And they intent to fight with us, the mother of all battle around the region of Israel. What do you think the world will do? The most likely reaction is that the United Nations will mobilize all the armies from the nations of the world which currently amount to almost 200 million to fight against this invasion and they will gather around Israel to meet the aliens.
I am not saying that God is an alien but what I am saying that God will come to fight against the rebellious ungodly unrepentent people who refused to submit to God at an appointed time in future. This is clearly stated in Revelation 9:
13The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns[b] of the golden altar that is before God. 14It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." 15And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number.
17The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. 18A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. 19The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.
20The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.
And the final victory belongs to God:
Revelation 19: 11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."
19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
Want to know how many soldiers including reservists the whole world currently has? It is almost 200 million. Please see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_troops
As for Truthseeker, I never doubt if God can make the moon or the sun shines 7 times brighter. There are stars millions of times brighter than the sun, what is 7 times brighter? Why doubt the ability of God? Is anything impossible for God? The verse in Isaiah 30 refers to the future comparable with Revelation 16:8:
Isaiah 30:26 - Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
Revelation 16: 8The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire. 9They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.
Many Blessings
Edward Goodie
03-25-2010, 09:15 PM
As for Truthseeker, I never doubt if God can make the moon or the sun shines 7 times brighter. There are stars millions of times brighter than the sun, what is 7 times brighter? Why doubt the ability of God? Is anything impossible for God? The verse in Isaiah 30 refers to the future comparable with Revelation 16:8:
Isaiah 30:26 - Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
Revelation 16: 8The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire. 9They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.
Many Blessings
But this is the problem Cheow, I do not doubt the ability of God for even one nanosecond. But I do doubt the ability of people to understand this common Hebrew metaphor! I know because I once thought exactly the same thing...
What you cannot see in this Isaiah passage is that this "increased illumination" occurs IN THE DAY "that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound."
Now, I don't know what you believe Isaiah meant by the period referring to "IN THE DAY," but if you take it to mean either the church (which I kind of doubt) or your millennium (which I think is possible) or even within the time of Isaiah (not likely), then you have one rather LARGE hermeneutic difficulty, especially if you take those "illuminating events" as actual, literal, physical events taking place in our universe.
If the moon actually, literally and physically was as bright as the sun, and the sun actually, literally and physically was made to burn seven times brighter, then, without a doubt the planet earth would be burn to a cinder and likely vaporized along with all the planets closer to the sun!!! Essentially that would place the Earth a mere 240,000 miles from the sun (our moon) rather than its normal 93,000,000 distance! I don't know if Mars would be vaporized, although I think it would be, because Mars, at its closest point to Earth is only about 34 million miles away. And since the sun is 93 million miles from earth, just imagine if our moon was shining as bright as our sun...it would be slightly closer to the sun (our moon) than Mercury is to the real sun. Average temperature on Mercury is...well... it is very, very hot - one would need an asbestos suit for sure. :) Now, add that to the real sun shining seven times brighter and it gets even hotter. All people would die horrible (but very brief) fiery deaths!
But the whole point is that it has nothing to do with those objects up in the sky! And this, Cheow, is probably the biggest problem in discussing these types of things with you...
Since there is no doubt that all individuals would perish if truly the sun did shine seven times brighter and our moon shone like the sun, why then would Isaiah say this would occur in a time of BLESSING? The words "binding" and "healing" are GOOD THINGS.
Cheow, this verse and many, many others are indicative of this one fact:
When the metaphors of cosmic objects are said to be bright, it is a time of great blessing.
When the metaphors of cosmic objects are said to be dark, it is a time of great trouble.
These COMMON metaphors are carried into the NT as well. Matthew 24:29 is one that is also interpreted in an overly literal fashion. Revelation is just packed with them...
This is why we need to put down our 21st century Western cultural and scientific brains and pick up a Hebrew one with knowledge of these common idioms. How do you think Jacob knew that the sun, moon and stars referred to himself, Joseph's mother and his eleven children in Genesis 37:9-10?
Please consider what I have said very prayerfully...
Peace and blessings!
Hi Truthseeker,
Have you been burned by the Moon? Even if the Moon's reflected light is 7 times brighter, it won't even raised a temperature neither will you get a moon-tan. What Isaiah 30 said is that the sun will be 7 times brighter and thus the reflected moonlight will also be 7 times brighter. The sun 7 times brighter does not necessary mean it will 7 times hotter. There are weather compensatory mechanisms in place that compensates to maintain equilibrium. The earth abides forever, remember? There are stars millions of times brighter than the sun, and if they are that equally hot, they will burn themselves out of existence! Do you believe that the sun can be darker but yet hotter, this is due to sunspots which radiates electro-magnetic waves thus heating the earth like a microwave.
I have been a Christian for 30 years and I have no regret about believing the futurist's theology. It fits like a glove.
Many Blessings.
Edward Goodie
03-26-2010, 04:53 AM
Hi Truthseeker,
Have you been burned by the Moon? Even if the Moon's reflected light is 7 times brighter, it won't even raised a temperature neither will you get a moon-tan. What Isaiah 30 said is that the sun will be 7 times brighter and thus the reflected moonlight will also be 7 times brighter. The sun 7 times brighter does not necessary mean it will be 7 times hotter. There are weather compensatory mechanisms in place that compensates to maintain equilibrium. The earth abides forever, remember? There are stars millions of times brighter than the sun, and if they are that equally hot, they will burn themselves out of existence! Do you believe that the sun can be darker but yet hotter, this is due to sunspots which radiates electro-magnetic waves thus heating the earth like a microwave.
I have been a Christian for 30 years and I have no regret about believing the futurist's theology. It fits like a glove.
Many Blessings.
So, all you have to do now is show me how your literal, physical explanation fits the context of "binding up the breach of the people." Bringing in your 21st century Western cultural and scientific brain to answer might be a tad difficult. But understanding these common Hebrew idioms and metaphors is but a simple task. Read the surrounding passages and you will easily discover the many metaphors in that one chapter alone!
BTW, you forgot to answer my question concerning Jacob and Genesis 37:9-10...it is along the same lines.
And where do you get the idea that "The earth abides forever, remember?" What Scripture(s) do you use for that?
Anyway, ignoring the many Hebrew metaphors IS just one of the things that separates you and me. Ignoring the literal, physical time statements is another one...Ignoring the OT promises that are fulfilled to the church is another one...Hopefully, you don't think the mark of the beast is technologically related (laser marks, barcodes, computer implants, etc.) because that would leave 18 centuries of generations completely devoid of this understanding...but that's what you get when you interpret the Scriptures through a 21st century lens...
Hi Truthseeker,
See my reply in red:
So, all you have to do now is show me how your literal, physical explanation fits the context of "binding up the breach of the people."
"binding up the breach of the people." means healing the sin of God's people after the tribulation at the end of times.
Bringing in your 21st century Western cultural and scientific brain to answer might be a tad difficult. But understanding these common Hebrew idioms and metaphors is but a simple task. Read the surrounding passages and you will easily discover the many metaphors in that one chapter alone!
BTW, you forgot to answer my question concerning Jacob and Genesis 37:9-10...it is along the same lines.
Joseph dreamt that one day the brothers and his father and mother will bow to him. That dream came true when Joseph became a very high official in the kingdom of Egypt. It is also a reference to Revelation 12:1, " a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and with a crownlike garland (tiara) of twelve stars on her head." What do you think it means?
And where do you get the idea that "The earth abides forever, remember?" What Scripture(s) do you use for that?
Ecclesiastes 1:4 "Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever".
Anyway, ignoring the many Hebrew metaphors IS just one of the things that separates you and me. Ignoring the literal, physical time statements is another one...Ignoring the OT promises that are fulfilled to the church is another one...Hopefully, you don't think the mark of the beast is technologically related (laser marks, barcodes, computer implants, etc.) because that would leave 18 centuries of generations completely devoid of this understanding...but that's what you get when you interpret the Scriptures through a 21st century lens...
Ignoring that the Bible is written for future generations is to ignore that prophesies are for the future. If Isaiah was written to prophesy Christ 600 years later and Moses prophesy about Jesus 1,500 years later, I wonder what generation was the prophesies in Revelations directed to? It's just too myopic to see the Bible up to AD 70, is God so short-sighted? Did God forsaken us after AD 70?.... or did He said He is with us till the end of times?
Many Blessings.
TheForgiven
03-26-2010, 01:55 PM
I am surprised Joe,
The 200 million man army is not fighting against the country of Israel, they are fighting against God. I agree with you the land of Israel is insignificant. They are fighting against God because they do not want God to rule over them, they do not want to lose their way of luxuriant, decadent way of life, their properties, their families.
No they are not my friend. They are not fighting against God, although in a way they would be. But you contradicted yourself without knowing it. How could anyone be fighting against God if they are at war with a race that rejects God because they rejected the One who was begotten of God?
If the nations surrounding Israel fight against them, and this same nation is the one who rejects the Begotten Son of God, then how could the nations fight against God seeing that the rejectors of the Son of God are also fighting against God?
Imagine that there is an invasion from outer space (I am not a Star War craze) in which aliens intent to rule over us and we are going to lose our properties, way of life etc. And they intent to fight with us, the mother of all battle around the region of Israel. What do you think the world will do? The most likely reaction is that the United Nations will mobilize all the armies from the nations of the world which currently amount to almost 200 million to fight against this invasion and they will gather around Israel to meet the aliens.
Well the Futurist's had better make up their minds then. Because they teach that this war would be caused from Gog / Ma-Gog, which believers such as yourselves represents Russia. Somehow they've dragged China into this, as though Russian and China are Gog, and Ma-Gog. Thus, are you suggesting that they will control the entire world, and all so they can attack modern day Israel? This can't be.
As I've stated, what possible reason would they have to fight against geographical Israel? There's no purpose or value in it. This is a world dominated and governed by money; not religion. Islam? That's an entirely different subject, but this is not a world dominated by Islam.
I am not saying that God is an alien but what I am saying that God will come to fight against the rebellious ungodly unrepentent people who refused to submit to God at an appointed time in future. This is clearly stated in Revelation 9:
13The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns[b] of the golden altar that is before God. 14It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." 15And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number.
17The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. 18A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. 19The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.
20The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.
I'm sorry my friend, but you are gravely mistaken. This is not a prophesy about God's attack on the world. Who were the four winds unleashed upon? The woman riding the beast; the woman who persecuted the saints; the woman who abides in the city where the Lord was crucified; the woman which consisted of those who were not sealed with the 144,000 thousand composing the 12 Tribes of Israel. Hence, the woman is Apostate Israel; this represents the Harlot, being the woman who rides the Beast. The beast fights against this woman upon its back and the Beast turns its back upon her, eats her flesh, and burns her with fire.
I don't think you realize these connections of Revelation from first to last. It's as though your pulling out specific sections of Revelation and applying it to a modern day understanding of world events. THAT is a very grave mistake, which of course is leading you to your discourse my friend. You've got to pay careful attention if you're ever going to understand these things my friend.
Revelation chapter 9 is about God's judgment upon those who were not sealed; those that were sealed from the four winds were of the 144,000 thousand from the 12 Tribes of Israel.
Keep studying my friend; one day (I pray) you will see and understand, and free yourself from the daily tabloids.
Joe
Edward Goodie
03-26-2010, 02:09 PM
Hi Truthseeker,
See my reply in red:
Ignoring that the Bible is written for future generations is to ignore that prophesies are for the future. If Isaiah was written to prophesy Christ 600 years later and Moses prophesy about Jesus 1,500 years later, I wonder what generation was the prophesies in Revelations directed to? It's just too myopic to see the Bible up to AD 70, is God so short-sighted? Did God forsaken us after AD 70?.... or did He said He is with us till the end of times?
Many Blessings.
Do you honestly believe those were answers to MY questions? You've got to be kidding me...honestly???
Please explain how the sun and moon getting physically brighter according to your explanation "means healing the sin of God's people after the tribulation at the end of times." Let me repeat...How does the brightness of the sun and moon heal the sin of God's people. Let's remember to stick to your literal, physical understanding...
You obviously missed the entire point of my question regarding Joseph's dream in Genesis 37:9-10. I want to know how JACOB knew what the sun, moon and stars stood for. Remember, Jacob answered before the fulfillment came true. How did he know to associate those "cosmic" entities with himself, Joseph's mother and his other eleven children?
Did Moses ever use statements like "at hand," "near," nigh," "shortly come to pass," and "coming quickly" in reference to his prophecy of Jesus. The answer is a definitive NO! But when these exact terms are associated with the Parousia event they are completely ignored. Why is that?
Hi Truthseeker,
Please don't use the word, "honestly", sounds as if I am dishonest.
God heals the sin of God's people through punishment and forgiveness of sin. There is a reference to God using the heat of the sun as punishment:
Revelation 16:8The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire. 9They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.
You have not answered my question:
Revelation 12:1, " a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and with a crownlike garland (tiara) of twelve stars on her head." What do you think it means? Does it make sense to you "Israel clothed with Jacob with Jacob's wife under her feet and the 12 sons of Jacob on her head?"
Moses may not used statements like "at hand," "near," nigh," "shortly come to pass," and "coming quickly" in reference to his prophecy of Jesus but other OT prophets did, hundreds, 600 years or even much more later and they may also refers to the end of times. Doesn't sounds near isn't it:
Isaiah 13:6
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty.
Isaiah 51:5
My righteousness draws near speedily, my salvation is on the way, and my arm will bring justice to the nations. The islands will look to me and wait in hope for my arm.
1. Ezekiel 6:12
He that is far away will die of the plague, and he that is near will fall by the sword, and he that survives and is spared will die of famine. So will I spend my wrath upon them.
2. Ezekiel 7:7
Doom has come upon you—you who dwell in the land. The time has come, the day is near; there is panic, not joy, upon the mountains.
3. Ezekiel 12:23
Say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to put an end to this proverb, and they will no longer quote it in Israel.' Say to them, 'The days are near when every vision will be fulfilled.
1. Joel 1:15
Alas for that day! For the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty.
2 Joel 3:14
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
3. Obadiah 1:15
"The day of the LORD is near for all nations. As you have done, it will be done to you; your deeds will return upon your own head.
Zephaniah 1:7
Be silent before the Sovereign LORD, for the day of the LORD is near. The LORD has prepared a sacrifice; he has consecrated those he has invited.
Zephaniah 1:14
[ The Great Day of the Lord ] "The great day of the LORD is near— near and coming quickly. Listen! The cry on the day of the LORD will be bitter, the shouting of the warrior there.
4. Malachi 3:5
"So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the LORD Almighty.
5. Isaiah 56:1
[ Salvation for Others ] This is what the LORD says: "Maintain justice and do what is right, for my salvation is close at hand and my righteousness will soon be revealed.
6. Jeremiah 51:33
This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: "The Daughter of Babylon is like a threshing floor at the time it is trampled; the time to harvest her will soon come."
9. Daniel 10:20
So he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come;
10. isaiah 66:15 See, the LORD is coming with fire,
****** and his chariots are like a whirlwind;
****** he will bring down his anger with fury,
****** and his rebuke with flames of fire.
11. Hosea 9:7
The days of punishment are coming, the days of reckoning are at hand. Let Israel know this. Because your sins are so many and your hostility so great, the prophet is considered a fool, the inspired man a maniac.
12. Joel 2:1
[ An Army of Locusts ] Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on my holy hill. Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the LORD is coming. It is close at hand-
13. Isaiah 13:22
Hyenas will howl in her strongholds, jackals in her luxurious palaces. Her time is at hand, and her days will not be prolonged.
14. Isaiah 56:1
[ Salvation for Others ] This is what the LORD says: "Maintain justice and do what is right, for my salvation is close at hand and my righteousness will soon be revealed.
15. Isaiah 13:9
See, the day of the LORD is coming —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.
16. Isaiah 14:9
The grave below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you— all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones— all those who were kings over the nations.
17. Isaiah 19:1
[ A Prophecy About Egypt ] An oracle concerning Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them.
18. Isaiah 26:21
See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer.
21. Isaiah 66:15
See, the LORD is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
22. Jeremiah 7:32
So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.
23. Jeremiah 9:25
"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will punish all who are circumcised only in the flesh-
24. Jeremiah 16:14
"However, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "when men will no longer say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,'
25. Jeremiah 19:6
So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call this place Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.
26. Jeremiah 23:5
"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land.
27. Jeremiah 23:7
"So then, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "when people will no longer say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,'
28. Jeremiah 30:3
The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess,' says the LORD."
29. Jeremiah 31:27
"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will plant the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the offspring of men and of animals.
30. Jeremiah 31:31
"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
31. Jeremiah 31:38
"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
32. Jeremiah 33:14
" 'The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will fulfill the gracious promise I made to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
33. 1. Jeremiah 48:12
But days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will send men who pour from jars, and they will pour her out; they will empty her jars and smash her jugs.
34. Jeremiah 49:2
But the days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will sound the battle cry against Rabbah of the Ammonites; it will become a mound of ruins, and its surrounding villages will be set on fire. Then Israel will drive out those who drove her out," says the LORD.
36. Ezekiel 7:5
"This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Disaster! An unheard-of disaster is coming.
37. Ezekiel 21:7
And when they ask you, 'Why are you groaning?' you shall say, 'Because of the news that is coming. Every heart will melt and every hand go limp; every spirit will become faint and every knee become as weak as water.' It is coming! It will surely take place, declares the Sovereign LORD."
38. Ezekiel 39:8
It is coming! It will surely take place, declares the Sovereign LORD. This is the day I have spoken of.
39. Hosea 9:7
The days of punishment are coming, the days of reckoning are at hand. Let Israel know this. Because your sins are so many and your hostility so great, the prophet is considered a fool, the inspired man a maniac.
40. Joel 2:1
[ An Army of Locusts ] Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on my holy hill. Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the LORD is coming. It is close at hand-
41. Joel 2:31
The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
42. Amos 7:1
[ Locusts, Fire and a Plumb Line ] This is what the Sovereign LORD showed me: He was preparing swarms of locusts after the king's share had been harvested and just as the second crop was coming up.
43. Amos 8:11
"The days are coming," declares the Sovereign LORD, "when I will send a famine through the land— not a famine of food or a thirst for water, but a famine of hearing the words of the LORD.
44. Amos 9:13
"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman and the planter by the one treading grapes. New wine will drip from the mountains and flow from all the hills.
45. Micah 1:3
[ Judgment Against Samaria and Jerusalem ] Look! The LORD is coming from his dwelling place; he comes down and treads the high places of the earth.
46. Habakkuk 2:16
You will be filled with shame instead of glory. Now it is your turn! Drink and be exposed ! The cup from the LORD's right hand is coming around to you, and disgrace will cover your glory.
47. Zephaniah 1:2
[ Warning of Coming Destruction ] "I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth," declares the LORD.
48. Zephaniah 1:14
[ The Great Day of the Lord ] "The great day of the LORD is near— near and coming quickly. Listen! The cry on the day of the LORD will be bitter, the shouting of the warrior there.
49. Zechariah 1:21
I asked, "What are these coming to do?" He answered, "These are the horns that scattered Judah so that no one could raise his head, but the craftsmen have come to terrify them and throw down these horns of the nations who lifted up their horns against the land of Judah to scatter its people."
50. Zechariah 2:10
"Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you," declares the LORD.
51. Zechariah 6:1
[ Four Chariots ] I looked up again—and there before me were four chariots coming out from between two mountains—mountains of bronze!
52. Zechariah 9:9
[ The Coming of Zion's King ] Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
53. Zechariah 14:1
[ The LORD Comes and Reigns ] A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.
54. Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap.
55. Malachi 4:1
[ The Day of the LORD ] "Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them.
Many Blessings and Peace.
No they are not my friend. They are not fighting against God, although in a way they would be. But you contradicted yourself without knowing it. How could anyone be fighting against God if they are at war with a race that rejects God because they rejected the One who was begotten of God?
If the nations surrounding Israel fight against them, and this same nation is the one who rejects the Begotten Son of God, then how could the nations fight against God seeing that the rejectors of the Son of God are also fighting against God?
Well the Futurist's had better make up their minds then. Because they teach that this war would be caused from Gog / Ma-Gog, which believers such as yourselves represents Russia. Somehow they've dragged China into this, as though Russian and China are Gog, and Ma-Gog. Thus, are you suggesting that they will control the entire world, and all so they can attack modern day Israel? This can't be.
As I've stated, what possible reason would they have to fight against geographical Israel? There's no purpose or value in it. This is a world dominated and governed by money; not religion. Islam? That's an entirely different subject, but this is not a world dominated by Islam.
I'm sorry my friend, but you are gravely mistaken. This is not a prophesy about God's attack on the world. Who were the four winds unleashed upon? The woman riding the beast; the woman who persecuted the saints; the woman who abides in the city where the Lord was crucified; the woman which consisted of those who were not sealed with the 144,000 thousand composing the 12 Tribes of Israel. Hence, the woman is Apostate Israel; this represents the Harlot, being the woman who rides the Beast. The beast fights against this woman upon its back and the Beast turns its back upon her, eats her flesh, and burns her with fire.
I don't think you realize these connections of Revelation from first to last. It's as though your pulling out specific sections of Revelation and applying it to a modern day understanding of world events. THAT is a very grave mistake, which of course is leading you to your discourse my friend. You've got to pay careful attention if you're ever going to understand these things my friend.
Revelation chapter 9 is about God's judgment upon those who were not sealed; those that were sealed from the four winds were of the 144,000 thousand from the 12 Tribes of Israel.
Keep studying my friend; one day (I pray) you will see and understand, and free yourself from the daily tabloids.
Joe
Thanks for your advice Joe,
Let's see who is mistaken. Anyway I did not say that Russia and China will gather to fight against God. It may also include USA EU and even all nations. That is the masterplan of God to gather all the evil unrepentent people and destroy them once and for all...a big harvest time. What God wants are righteous people to inhabit His kingdom of heaven. Whether they will be given a second chance for repentence after that is a different matter. It is all stated clearly in Revelation in which God punishes these people with the seals, the trumpets and the bowls. We have a long discussion on that Joe and I can challenge you to explain what all these seals, trumpets, bowls mean items by items.
See the Bible with the 21st century eyes and many revelations will be revealed to you. Remember the Bible is written for future generations, prophesies are always for the future, prophesies are always fulfilled literally never symbolically, Jesus died for the sin of the whole wide world and not for the Roman world.
Take care and Many Blessings to you.
TheForgiven
03-27-2010, 06:00 AM
Thanks for your advice Joe,
Always a pleasure my friend. :winking0071:
Let's see who is mistaken. Anyway I did not say that Russia and China will gather to fight against God. It may also include USA EU and even all nations. That is the masterplan of God to gather all the evil unrepentent people and destroy them once and for all...a big harvest time. What God wants are righteous people to inhabit His kingdom of heaven. Whether they will be given a second chance for repentence after that is a different matter. It is all stated clearly in Revelation in which God punishes these people with the seals, the trumpets and the bowls. We have a long discussion on that Joe and I can challenge you to explain what all these seals, trumpets, bowls mean items by items.
Explain it for what? All of us here at the bible wheel have done so on countless occasions. But as usual, those answers are never rebuddled, and are always rejected.
Here's an example my friend. You now state that Russian and China "could" take part in the entire global war, theoretically composing the EU; an entity you feel to be a representation of John's Beast (I think anyways).
So you believe God's supposed Master plan is to bring the entire world into a global war? For what? Revenge? That's God's revenge??? He's a loving God who, for reasons unknown, will plunge the entire globe into war; a war that devolves the entire non-Christian human species into a senseless war, with no purpose but to fight against God? Have you no faith in humanity at all?
How could the Beast be the EU, and Russia and China possibly be Gog and MaGog?
My problem with your theories my friend is there is no solidity or connection with any nation. Furthermore you assume that even the USA, a nation that has supported the pro-Zionist's movement since the British permitted the Jews to return to their native land, will somehow engage with the EU to fight against the very nation they support? Does this make the USA the Harlot, or the Beast?
You've got it all wrong my friend. Every single idea you're proposing is wrong, and makes no sense. Here's my questions for you:
1. Who is the Beast
2. Who is the Harlot
3. Who suffers the seals, trumpets, bowls of wrath, peals of thunder, etc.
4. Who is spared from all the above?
Your answer will explain the misconceptions you've embraced.
See the Bible with the 21st century eyes and many revelations will be revealed to you. Remember the Bible is written for future generations, prophesies are always for the future, prophesies are always fulfilled literally never symbolically, Jesus died for the sin of the whole wide world and not for the Roman world.
Sure I won't! Why see the bible through 21st century lenses when even the 21st century prophets keep getting it wrong? Yes, Prophesy is for the future. But who's future? There's (First century), or yours? Sounds to me like you want Revelation to be your future, and not the original audience who needed the message of hope.
What possible torture or suffering are you going through that you feel Revelation must involve your generation? Are you losing hand, limb, eye, or organ for the sake of the Gospel? Are you subjected to the tortures of animal cruelty (Roman Arena)? Who ever said that the gospel was meant for Rome? Even the New Testament considered the Roman dominated world that entire world; for that was all that was in habited during those days. According to some sources, the gospels went as far as India and China.
Since you hold to the pro-literal reading of the Bible, then I challenge you to explain this one simple verse:
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
Paul states that Jesus was manifested in the flesh, seen by Angels, preached among the Gentiles, and believed on in the world. How must "world" is he talking about? Was he excluding China, Ethiopia, India, etc?
Remember, you MUST adhere to your literal belief, and not where you feel it to be convenient.
Joe
Hi Joe, You are entitled to your belief and I am entitled to mine.
The masterplan of God is this and it is stated in almost every Jesus parable about the kingdom of God. It is about getting good righteous people for the kingdom of God. Why do you think that God destroy all land creatures and vegetations in the Great Flood? Because he wanted to destroy all evil people so that the world will be populated by more righteous people from the seeds of Noah. The time for the great harvest will come at an appointed time in the GWT when the good righteous will be separated from the unrepentent evil, just like the separation from the sheep and the goats in Matthew 26.
God will punished those unrepentent evil at an appointed time. It is man who will fight against God because they do not want God to rule over their lives, they do not want to give up or repent their decadent evil way of life. Remember 200 million man army is poised to fight against God at the appointed time and that army will comprise from every nation in the world not necessary from China or Russia. God don't plunge people into a global war; it is man that plunge the world into a global war, the war between evil unrepentent people against God's people.
Good against evil that's what the Bible is all about and in the end the Good and Righteousness will triumph; that is the masterplan of God. And God will then live together with the Good and Righteous in the kingdom of heaven.
Joe, please answer this simple question, Did God forsake us for the last 2,000 years? Why didn't we hear of prophets or apostles or of angels or even Jesus coming to speak to people during the last 2,000 years....why? why? why?
Many Blessings.
Edward Goodie
03-27-2010, 08:28 AM
Hi Cheow,
Why will you not address my two measly questions?
You will not tell me how the increased brightness of the sun and moon have anything to do with the binding and healing. It does no good to bring up a different verse and talk about the opposite of "binding" and "healing."
What point was there is bringing up a verse in Revelation about Jacob???
I asked you how did Jacob know, and still you can not tell me...Genesis hadn't even been written yet if you consider Moses as the author... That means Jacob had no access to Scripture, yet he still knew that the sun, moon and stars applied to himself, Joseph's mother and his eleven sons. What you have failed to do in every single response is to tell me HOW he knew this. I still await your answer. You do know it is okay to say "I don't know," right?
As for that list of verses, what were attempt to prove? It certainly hadn't much to do with the day of the Lord that occurred in the NT...maybe other days of the Lord though.
Please answer my measly questions. I am trying to show you that the language is figurative...but you have a figurative-adverse hermeneutic; you won't allow the common Hebrew metaphors to affect your present paradigm. Sorry, but that is the HONEST truth...
ok Truthseeker,
To be fair to you and to be fair to me, I answer one question of yours, you answer one question of mine.
God gave Joseph the dream that his parents and brothers will one day bow down to him. Based on Jewish culture, the elders are not supposed to bow to the younger. The sun based on Jewish culture represents the father, moon the mother and the stars, the children.
Now it is your turn to answer mine:
Revelation 12:1, " a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and with a crownlike garland (tiara) of twelve stars on her head." What do you think it means?
Many Blessings.
TheForgiven
03-27-2010, 02:07 PM
Hi Joe, You are entitled to your belief and I am entitled to mine.
And you are entitled to yours my friend. But do please consider that others will base their decisions on our opinions when we are more clear and sound in our judgments. I've presented simple logic without trying to bombard you with one verse after another. I explained to you that the theories you're proposing with Revelation do not match. You state that Revelation is about God's judgment upon the entire world, yet you failed to analyze the important detail of the 144,000 sealed. I showed you that the entire world cannot be both beast and Harlot, and yet you still have not identified either.
In all this, what opinion do you have because it's unclear exactly what your stance is. I know you hold to the futurist position, but you offer no details that hold together; they contradict themselves in that your idea of a Beast doesn't fit with the rest of Revelation. Who is Gog and Magog? Who is the Harlot that rides the Beast? Who is the Beast? Who are the 144,000 sealed, as opposed to those who were NOT sealed?
The masterplan of God is this and it is stated in almost every Jesus parable about the kingdom of God. It is about getting good righteous people for the kingdom of God. Why do you think that God destroy all land creatures and vegetations in the Great Flood? Because he wanted to destroy all evil people so that the world will be populated by more righteous people from the seeds of Noah. The time for the great harvest will come at an appointed time in the GWT when the good righteous will be separated from the unrepentent evil, just like the separation from the sheep and the goats in Matthew 26.
Now take a very careful look at the picture you've presented about the great flood. God destroyed sin in the world with water. How did He destroy sin in the world in the first century? By His Blood on the cross. Jesus dying on the cross is a fulfillment of what the great flood represented. Additionally, the waters were used to purify the earth; His blood does this.
Lastly, the fiery trials that the first century endured was a cleansing period, as well as a refinement. Like black coal, they were being transformed into diamonds, in order to build the New Jerusalem. Why can't you understand these things? Do you not believe?
God will punished those unrepentent evil at an appointed time. It is man who will fight against God because they do not want God to rule over their lives, they do not want to give up or repent their decadent evil way of life. Remember 200 million man army is poised to fight against God at the appointed time and that army will comprise from every nation in the world not necessary from China or Russia. God don't plunge people into a global war; it is man that plunge the world into a global war, the war between evil unrepentent people against God's people.
This is the same problem that first century Jews had; they taught of a God that sits on a mighty throne and seeks judgment. They wanted God to come to them, and destroy all the nations around them so that they (First century Jews) could become the glorious Empire that existed during the days of Joshua, Solomon, and David. They did not realize that Christ was trying to reconcile the world to Himself. How do you do this? With love and grace; not wrath and destruction.
Your eschatology is dangerous because it teaches the exact opposite of what the New Testament is all about; love, hope, faith, and grace. We are to be lights of love, and not teachers of vengeance.
Yes God will punish sinners. But what you're suggesting is a complete destruction of the world, which has absolutely NO scriptural support; absolutely none. So how can you support and believe something that isn't even written?
Good against evil that's what the Bible is all about and in the end the Good and Righteousness will triumph; that is the masterplan of God. And God will then live together with the Good and Righteous in the kingdom of heaven.
As stated, this is a very dangerous copy-cat of the first century Jews. IT IS NOT about good vs evil. It's about the victory of Christ who established His Kingdom, and spread the gospel of love throughout the entire world. What is love? Love is doing nothing wrong even to those who harm you. Thus, since Christianity is about love and tolerance, how much more the God of Love? But what you are suggesting is a God of wrath, total annihilation, and destructive fear.
Finally, God's wrath was completed in 70AD upon those who pierced His only begotten Son, and persecuted the Saints whom He chose to preach the gospels.
Joe, please answer this simple question, Did God forsake us for the last 2,000 years? Why didn't we hear of prophets or apostles or of angels or even Jesus coming to speak to people during the last 2,000 years....why? why? why?
Many Blessings.
He has not forsaken us. He's with us every day. But your faith does not permit you to see this my friend; honestly, it doesn't. If you had faith as strong as a simple mustard seed, you would know and understand that everything you see happening around your very life is on the basis of His rule, whether it be blessings to your life, or punishment. You should not need to see Him ruling the earth, in order to know that He does rule the earth. If someone were to point a gun at you, and kill you, it is God who permitted it to happen. If that person fails to kill you, it is because God permitted it to happen; He protected you.
Jesus explains how the birds of the air are clothed and fed on a daily basis by God. "How much more important are we? O ye men of little faith. Are ye not more important than they?"
Since we are important to God, I know that we are not forsaken. You do not need to ask Him to come down to you from heaven; this is the word of faith that Paul preached; He is in our hearts when we confess His name. Those who do not know Him (joined) cannot confess His name, and are not even interested. That is why they walk around blindly.
Keep the faith. But also understand the faith that you may understand my friend. Faith is not in what is seen, but was is unseen.
Joe
ok Truthseeker,
To be fair to you and to be fair to me, I answer one question of yours, you answer one question of mine.
God gave Joseph the dream that his parents and brothers will one day bow down to him. Based on Jewish culture, the elders are not supposed to bow to the younger. The sun based on Jewish culture represents the father, moon the mother and the stars, the children.
Now it is your turn to answer mine:
Revelation 12:1, " a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and with a crownlike garland (tiara) of twelve stars on her head." What do you think it means?
Many Blessings.
Hi Cheow
I know you didn't ask me, but I would love to give you my interpretation of Rev. 12:1.
The woman is representative of Israel being clothed in the power of God, and the crown of 12 stars are symbolic of the 12 Tribes of Israel. The moon under her feet would be Gentile peoples, whereas God being the sun holding Israel as His chosen people with the Gentile nations taking their place under the feet of His elect.
Rose
Hi Rose and the rest,
Please do not answer on Truthseeker's behalf as he has to be fair to me as I have answered his question, he have to answer mine. My question is :
If the sun represents the father(Jacob), the moon represents the mother(Leah) and the 12 stars represent the 12 sons of Jacob how do you interpret this verse in Revelation 12:1," a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and with a crownlike garland (tiara) of twelve stars on her head."?
Many Blessings.
Hi Joe, please note my answer in red.
And you are entitled to yours my friend. But do please consider that others will base their decisions on our opinions when we are more clear and sound in our judgments. I've presented simple logic without trying to bombard you with one verse after another. I explained to you that the theories you're proposing with Revelation do not match. You state that Revelation is about God's judgment upon the entire world, yet you failed to analyze the important detail of the 144,000 sealed. I showed you that the entire world cannot be both beast and Harlot, and yet you still have not identified either.
Neither is your logic clear, is there any record, historical or traditional that there were 144,000 Jews sealed in the AD 70?
In all this, what opinion do you have because it's unclear exactly what your stance is. I know you hold to the futurist position, but you offer no details that hold together; they contradict themselves in that your idea of a Beast doesn't fit with the rest of Revelation. Who is Gog and Magog? Who is the Harlot that rides the Beast? Who is the Beast? Who are the 144,000 sealed, as opposed to those who were NOT sealed?
There is no need to answer about the Beast, the Harlot as it has already been answered in some of my posts and threads. and even if I answered, you will reject it because you will never believe in anything future.
Now take a very careful look at the picture you've presented about the great flood. God destroyed sin in the world with water. How did He destroy sin in the world in the first century? By His Blood on the cross. Jesus dying on the cross is a fulfillment of what the great flood represented. Additionally, the waters were used to purify the earth; His blood does this.
When God destroyed the sin (of the evil people) of the world with the great Flood, was He kind and forgiving or was He cruel?...One must differentiate between kind and soft. I believe God is kind but not soft. Sometimes, it's good to be "cruel" in order to be kind. We don't expect a judge to say to a criminal, "Please don't rob the bank and kill the cashiers again in future ok? Thank you. I will let you go this time". This is obviously too kind and too soft, will it have any impact on the criminal? Where is the justice?
Lastly, the fiery trials that the first century endured was a cleansing period, as well as a refinement. Like black coal, they were being transformed into diamonds, in order to build the New Jerusalem. Why can't you understand these things? Do you not believe?
There will also be fiery trial in the future to punish those who do not glorify God and are unrepentent of the evil wicked ways. Do you think God will allow sin and wickedness to continue indefinitely. If so, why destroyed the sin of the world with a great Flood in the first place? Why destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem in AD 70? Why waste time judging the good and the wicked in the GWT? Why can't you understand these things?
This is the same problem that first century Jews had; they taught of a God that sits on a mighty throne and seeks judgment. They wanted God to come to them, and destroy all the nations around them so that they (First century Jews) could become the glorious Empire that existed during the days of Joshua, Solomon, and David. They did not realize that Christ was trying to reconcile the world to Himself. How do you do this? With love and grace; not wrath and destruction.
Please answer these questions, Can wrath and destruction comes with love and grace? Can one be cruel in order to be kind?....or do we spare the rod and spoil the child? Proverbs said it well,
Proverbs 13:24
He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.
Your eschatology is dangerous because it teaches the exact opposite of what the New Testament is all about; love, hope, faith, and grace. We are to be lights of love, and not teachers of vengeance.
Your eschatology is equally dangerous, Be too kind and be too soft-hearted....spare the rod..... The Bible is not only full of love, hope, faith and grace but also full of violence, vengence, wrath. Why?
Yes God will punish sinners. But what you're suggesting is a complete destruction of the world, which has absolutely NO scriptural support; absolutely none. So how can you support and believe something that isn't even written?
Same as I would say, why symbolize something when there is no scriptural support to do so? How can one symbolize 1,000 year reign to mean 40 years to AD 70? Why symbolize "the sun will not give its light, the moon will become dark...." with no strong scriptural support?
As stated, this is a very dangerous copy-cat of the first century Jews. IT IS NOT about good vs evil. It's about the victory of Christ who established His Kingdom, and spread the gospel of love throughout the entire world. What is love? Love is doing nothing wrong even to those who harm you. Thus, since Christianity is about love and tolerance, how much more the God of Love? But what you are suggesting is a God of wrath, total annihilation, and destructive fear.
You contradicted yourself with the following words below, " God's wrath was completed in 70AD upon those who pierced His only begotten Son, and persecuted the Saints whom He chose to preach the gospels." Is God is love or is God
is wrath? The Bible is full of love and also full of wrath,it is also a record full of good deeds and full of bad deeds. It is a book to teach people what is good and what is bad and the obvious result is that Good will Triumph over Evil. And of course the Bible especially the NT is about the spread of the gospel of the love of God throughout the world, with the love of God being victorious over the world of evil.
Finally, God's wrath was completed in 70AD upon those who pierced His only begotten Son, and persecuted the Saints whom He chose to preach the gospels.
He has not forsaken us. He's with us every day. But your faith does not permit you to see this my friend; honestly, it doesn't. If you had faith as strong as a simple mustard seed, you would know and understand that everything you see happening around your very life is on the basis of His rule, whether it be blessings to your life, or punishment. You should not need to see Him ruling the earth, in order to know that He does rule the earth. If someone were to point a gun at you, and kill you, it is God who permitted it to happen. If that person fails to kill you, it is because God permitted it to happen; He protected you.
I do not totally agree with you here. Sometimes God uses "adverse" events to mold one's character. One's bad luck does not necessary mean God has forsaken you. He is love and want to mold you to the right way. What do think of priests charged for molesting children? Perhaps it's God's way of telling the priests that this is wrong and needs to be punished and the chidren, do not trust people even the priests as people are easily tempted to evil; trust God.
Jesus explains how the birds of the air are clothed and fed on a daily basis by God. "How much more important are we? O ye men of little faith. Are ye not more important than they?"
Totally agree with you here
Since we are important to God, I know that we are not forsaken. You do not need to ask Him to come down to you from heaven; this is the word of faith that Paul preached; He is in our hearts when we confess His name. Those who do not know Him (joined) cannot confess His name, and are not even interested. That is why they walk around blindly.
Totally agree with you here
Keep the faith. But also understand the faith that you may understand my friend. Faith is not in what is seen, but was is unseen.
Totally agree with you here
Joe
Edward Goodie
03-27-2010, 08:35 PM
ok Truthseeker,
To be fair to you and to be fair to me, I answer one question of yours, you answer one question of mine.
God gave Joseph the dream that his parents and brothers will one day bow down to him. Based on Jewish culture, the elders are not supposed to bow to the younger. The sun based on Jewish culture represents the father, moon the mother and the stars, the children.
Now it is your turn to answer mine:
Revelation 12:1, " a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and with a crownlike garland (tiara) of twelve stars on her head." What do you think it means?
Many Blessings.
Never mind. I have tried three times now and not yet have you ever explained to me HOW JACOB KNEW. The answer must come from the perspective of JACOB's understanding. You have given me God's perspective, Joseph's perspective and Scripture's perspective. I only want JACOB'S perspective. How did HE understand what those "cosmic objects" stood for. You fail to even understand the question...
I would be interested in your Jewish cultural sources that you used to come to this conclusion. It is right, but that doesn't explain how Jacob knew.
ok Truthseeker,
I do not know how Jacob knew what the moon, sun and stars stand for. I believe was God inspired and he knew from his Jewish tradition. In fact, I do not understand what you really want from your question. Now I have answered your question, be fair to me, answer mine:
Revelation 12:1, " a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and with a crownlike garland (tiara) of twelve stars on her head." What do you think it means?
Many Blessings.
TheForgiven
03-28-2010, 07:19 AM
Neither is your logic clear, is there any record, historical or traditional that there were 144,000 Jews sealed in the AD 70?
You missed my point. The 144,000 was not a literal number to be taken. It (in my opinion) was to show the impartiality between the different Tribes. But note that the 12 Tribes mentioned in Revelation no longer exist. So how could their be a future Tribe spared? Do you not remember how the Lord warned the Jews who believed in Him, and how they should run from when they saw the armies surrounding Jerusalem? Did this not happen? Is this not a historical account for you to accept?
There is no need to answer about the Beast, the Harlot as it has already been answered in some of my posts and threads. and even if I answered, you will reject it because you will never believe in anything future.
Well I sure do not remember you answering, although I remember you mentioning a few things. But to date, I still have not definitive understanding of your exact position. The Harlot is Apostate Israel, the Beast is Rome. Since neither exist anymore, it cannot be future. If you believe that the identity is a future nation or empire, then you are left to explain how the 144,000 thousand composing the 12 Tribes can exist in the future, for them to be spared. FACTS are important because it leaves no shred of doubt. It is a fact that the 12 Tribes no longer exist as there are no birth records of who was born from where in modern day Israel. You stated in another post that as long as they had even mixed blood, then they are still Jewish. But that is totally wrong.
Genesis 49:
1 And Jacob called his sons and said, 'Gather together, that I may tell you what shall befall you in the last days:
2 ' Gather together and hear, you sons of Jacob,
And listen to Israel your father.
3 ' Reuben, you are my firstborn,
My might and the beginning of my strength,
The excellency of dignity and the excellency of power.
4 Unstable as water, you shall not excel,
Because you went up to your father’s bed;
Then you defiled it—
He went up to my couch.
5 ' Simeon and Levi are brothers;
Instruments of cruelty are in their dwelling place.
6 Let not my soul enter their council;
Let not my honor be united to their assembly;
For in their anger they slew a man,
And in their self-will they hamstrung an ox.
7 Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce;
And their wrath, for it is cruel!
I will divide them in Jacob
And scatter them in Israel.
8 ' Judah, you are he whom your brothers shall praise;
Your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies;
Your father’s children shall bow down before you.
9 Judah is a lion’s whelp;
From the prey, my son, you have gone up.
He bows down, he lies down as a lion;
And as a lion, who shall rouse him?
10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
Nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
Until Shiloh comes;
And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.
11 Binding his donkey to the vine,
And his donkey’s colt to the choice vine,
He washed his garments in wine,
And his clothes in the blood of grapes.
12 His eyes are darker than wine,
And his teeth whiter than milk.
13 ' Zebulun shall dwell by the haven of the sea;
He shall become a haven for ships,
And his border shall adjoin Sidon.
14 ' Issachar is a strong donkey,
Lying down between two burdens;
15 He saw that rest was good,
And that the land was pleasant;
He bowed his shoulder to bear a burden,
And became a band of slaves.
16 'Dan shall judge his people
As one of the tribes of Israel.
17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way,
A viper by the path,
That bites the horse’s heels
So that its rider shall fall backward.
18 I have waited for your salvation, O LORD!
19 'Gad, a troop shall tramp upon him,
But he shall triumph at last.
20 'Bread from Asher shall be rich,
And he shall yield royal dainties.
21 ' Naphtali is a deer let loose;
He uses beautiful words.
22 ' Joseph is a fruitful bough,
A fruitful bough by a well;
His branches run over the wall.
23 The archers have bitterly grieved him,
Shot at him and hated him.
24 But his bow remained in strength,
And the arms of his hands were made strong
By the hands of the Mighty God of Jacob
(From there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel),
25 By the God of your father who will help you,
And by the Almighty who will bless you
With blessings of heaven above,
Blessings of the deep that lies beneath,
Blessings of the breasts and of the womb.
26 The blessings of your father
Have excelled the blessings of my ancestors,
Up to the utmost bound of the everlasting hills.
They shall be on the head of Joseph,
And on the crown of the head of him who was separate from his brothers.
27 ' Benjamin is a ravenous wolf;
In the morning he shall devour the prey,
And at night he shall divide the spoil.'
28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel, and this is what their father spoke to them. And he blessed them; he blessed each one according to his own blessing.
Can any one claiming he/she is a Jew today recognize and prove which Tribe they are from?
FACTS remove all shadow of doubt, and cannot be disputed. Yes I know a factual man can be another form of sin, but that's only true if the facts are wrong. Are there any Jews today that are based from the Tribes? If not (which is a fact I might add, for there are not), then neither can there be a future 144,000 sealed. This mandates a first century fulfillment; a fact you reject because it contradicts the Futurist paradigms you cling to.
When God destroyed the sin (of the evil people) of the world with the great Flood, was He kind and forgiving or was He cruel?...One must differentiate between kind and soft. I believe God is kind but not soft. Sometimes, it's good to be "cruel" in order to be kind. We don't expect a judge to say to a criminal, "Please don't rob the bank and kill the cashiers again in future ok? Thank you. I will let you go this time". This is obviously too kind and too soft, will it have any impact on the criminal? Where is the justice?
Yea? Remember Mary and how the Law demanded that she be stoned to death? What was Christ's response? "Who is there to condemn you Mary; neither do I condemn you. Go your way and sin no more...." Grace is what changed her, not wrath. God's wrath is not towards sinner, but towards sinners who persecute His Saints. History proves that this has always been the case.
There will also be fiery trial in the future to punish those who do not glorify God and are unrepentent of the evil wicked ways. Do you think God will allow sin and wickedness to continue indefinitely. If so, why destroyed the sin of the world with a great Flood in the first place? Why destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem in AD 70? Why waste time judging the good and the wicked in the GWT? Why can't you understand these things?
That answer is found in Revelation. Those on the outside of the gates remain outside. Only by accepting the free invitation to partake of the free gift of life, through the Blood of Christ and His Spirit, can one enter into the gates. The Bible mentions absolutely nothing about sinners being removed from the earth.
Please answer these questions, Can wrath and destruction comes with love and grace? Can one be cruel in order to be kind?....or do we spare the rod and spoil the child? Proverbs said it well,
Proverbs 13:24
He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.
Be careful. This proverb is about raising legitimate children. Those outside of God are not legitimate children, and are not being fashions (disciplined).
Hebrews 12:
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
' My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.'
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.
Sinners outside of God are not judged until they meet their deaths. And children who are being chastened are considered legitimate children of God.
Your eschatology is equally dangerous, Be too kind and be too soft-hearted....spare the rod..... The Bible is not only full of love, hope, faith and grace but also full of violence, vengence, wrath. Why?
Why? Because it teaches tolerance? Should Christ have used the Rod on Mary? Of course not! Now had Mary continued on in sin, THEN the Rod (Figurative expression I might add) is used to discipline her. YOU on the other hand believe that God chastens all men of flesh even though they are not part of His family. What you propose is a first century Jewish sin of revenge. They wanted a God who would destroy the Romans and set them (Jews) high above all the nations, so that they could continue doing what they were doing without fear of the nations. In short, THEY wanted to be in control. Do you go around spanking other people's children? Of course not because it is considered illegal. But why not spank other mens children? Because they are not your children; you deal and discipline those you own and have betrothed. The same with God. All creatures are His, but He knows who belongs to Him, and who does not. Those who do not belong to Him will receive their judgment upon death.
Same as I would say, why symbolize something when there is no scriptural support to do so? How can one symbolize 1,000 year reign to mean 40 years to AD 70? Why symbolize "the sun will not give its light, the moon will become dark...." with no strong scriptural support?
"For the Day of the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a [single] day...." Using your own rules of literal interpretation, can't the "1000 years" also be "a day"? This is your rules now. So follow it.
This is a lot I've answered, and I appreciate your responses.
God be with you on your quest.
Joe
Hi Joe,
Just to make things short. I suspect the Harlot to be Rome and the Beast to be EU.
Even if the 12 tribes is not in existence to day, does not mean God cannot re-assemble all the Jews or mixed Jews again to the 12 tribes of Israel? Is this an impossibility for God? Funny the land of Israel is still divided with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel today. Is it because there is a possibility that the land of Israel will be inherited again by the 12 tribes of Israel? Or... Have you forgotten that God had promised that the land of Israel belongs to the 12 tribes of Israel forever?
Yes, Christ have forgiven Mary but the Christ who comes with the rod on a white horse in Revelation 19 also out to destroy the evil people who worship the Beast mercilessly:
11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."
19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
Why must the 1,000 year reign be the 40 years to AD 70, why not 10 years, 590 years 100 years, 200 years etc, why 40 years?
Joe:"For the Day of the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a [single] day...." Using your own rules of literal interpretation, can't the "1000 years" also be "a day"? This is your rules now.
Read 2 Peter 3 again carefully and don't change the words, its "a day is like a thousand years" and not "the day of the Lord is as a thousand years":
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
A thousand years is a thousand years even a thousand years is a day is a day; why 40 years? So follow it.
Many Blessings.
TheForgiven
03-28-2010, 01:47 PM
Hi Joe,
Just to make things short. I suspect the Harlot to be Rome and the Beast to be EU.
That won't work my friend. The EU is not organized or powerful enough to plan such a world-wide campaign. Furthermore, Rome cannot be the Harlot because the Lord was not crucified in Rome:
Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Therefore, to suggest to everyone that the Harlot is Rome does not fit with scripture. Additionally, The Harlot is burned to death by the Beast. So are you suggesting that Rome will be destroyed by the EU? As proven by scripture, the Harlot (which means someone who committed adultery against God by selling herself to a foreigner outside of God's relationship) represents the adulterous city, figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, is where the Lord was crucified. Literally, and historically, the Lord was crucified in Jerusalem.
Are you now ready to believe? If not, at least believe scripture, for it shows that you are incorrect my loving friend.
Even if the 12 tribes is not in existence to day, does not mean God cannot re-assemble all the Jews or mixed Jews again to the 12 tribes of Israel? Is this an impossibility for God? Funny the land of Israel is still divided with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel today. Is it because there is a possibility that the land of Israel will be inherited again by the 12 tribes of Israel? Or... Have you forgotten that God had promised that the land of Israel belongs to the 12 tribes of Israel forever?
Here we go again. Brother Cheow, God can do anything He wants. He can turn rocks into bread; stones into water; houses into space craft. He's God and He can do anything. But does scripture say that He will once again regather the Tribes in Israel? Does it also say that after regathering them, that He will send a harsh judgment upon them by permitting them to be tortured again? If so, where is this written? Since you believe that the Harlot is Rome, and the EU is the Beast, what does this have to do with the 12 Tribes? According to Revelation, the 12 Tribes were sealed from suffering this onslaught by the Beast; those in Israel that are not sealed would end up dying at the hands of this terrible Beast.
I'm sorry my friend but your ideas severely contradict the entire book of Revelation. You've got to do much better than this if you ever want to convince outsiders (forgetting about Preterist) that your eschatology holds water.
Was the Lord crucified in Rome? No.
Will Rome burn itself? No.
Can the EU attack Rome? No because Rome doesn't exist...unless of course you mean the Roman Catholic Church; that would be a 7th Day Adventist teaching.
I'm afraid your ideas are garbled my friend, and that without scriptural support.
Yes, Christ have forgiven Mary but the Christ who comes with the rod on a white horse in Revelation 19 also out to destroy the evil people who worship the Beast mercilessly:
This is very fascinating my friend. But are you suggesting that a world that is dominated by economics will somehow succumb to a lowly agency called the EU? Bro, this is all mere fantasy. Where the scripture to support this? What as the EU to do with where the Lord was crucified? How is the Harlot (ROME) where the Lord was crucified, and how are they also reckoned as Sodom and Egypt?
11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."
19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
So will Christ literally descend from the sky with a literal sword from His mouth? Will He literally be riding a white horse? Doesn't this contradict Acts chapter 1 that states His return will be as He left. Was Christ riding a horse when He departed? Will the EU and Rome fight against a literal Messiah riding a white horse with a sword sticking out of His mouth?
What then do the passages above speak of? God's judgment upon the nation that destroyed the Harlot. It also speaks of the invitation to the marriage supper of the lamb. Are you suggesting that the marriage has not yet happened? Do you not recall that the Lord told the Apostles that the people of His generation would suffer wrath and fall by the sword, and how He also stated that one would be taken, and the other left? The Apostles then asked, "Where Lord". His reply was, "where ever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather." What does this mean, and how does this connect with verses 17-18? Let's compare:
Matthew 24:28
For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
Luke 17:37
And they answered and said to Him, 'Where, Lord?' So He said to them, 'Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.'
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."
See the connection? Now can this be future? Nope, it cannot. Because according to Luke, this was a first century generation fulfillment:
Luke 21:
20 'But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The times of the Gentiles involved the final 7 years of its existence. When the war began, all heck broke lose, and Israel became a haunting place; a place of despair; a tomb stone filled with dead bodies. Daniel's city, temple, and people came to its end, like a large Mill-Stone thrown into the sea, never to be found again. The voice of the Bride and Bride Groom shall never be found in you again.
Revelation 18:23
23 The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived.
Thus, as you can see, the Israel you expect to be built with the waive of God's magic wand is not written in scripture. IN FACT, Revelation 18:23 testifies against the eschatology you propose.
Why must the 1,000 year reign be the 40 years to AD 70, why not 10 years, 590 years 100 years, 200 years etc, why 40 years?
I'll let you ponder over that one. I merely stated that the 1000 years could be just a simple day to us. But you choose to make this a literal 1000 years, when not even the Greek word agrees with you. The Text reads, "Chillias", and not "Chillia". This means that the Greek word is plural, indicating an undetermined amount of time. However, as stated, following your own rules, the 1000 years could also be "A Day". For the "DAY OF THE LORD", that is, "The 1000 years of the Lord" shall come like a thief in the night.
I'm just trying to set you free from the daily tabloids my friend. But only you can make that first step. If you want to remain in the confused state as a Futurist, that is your choice. But keep in mind that I, and many such as myself, were once Futurist's. So what they teach is nothing knew; well perhaps the data itself has changed within the past 20 years or so. But this EU thing, Rome Thing, and Micro-Chip is all man-made jargon that has no place in the Church; it is all mere fiction and based on a false eschatology that has a very long history of being wrong. Why make more history confirming this point?
Joe
Edward Goodie
03-28-2010, 08:45 PM
ok Truthseeker,
I do not know how Jacob knew what the moon, sun and stars stand for. I believe was God inspired and he knew from his Jewish tradition. In fact, I do not understand what you really want from your question. Now I have answered your question, be fair to me, answer mine:
Revelation 12:1, " a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and with a crownlike garland (tiara) of twelve stars on her head." What do you think it means?
Many Blessings.
Your second sentence didn't make any sense so I didn't know what you were trying to say. All I know is that Jacob did know what the sun, moon and stars stood for. How? I don't know. The point is this: His understanding is WAYYYYYYY different than those who approach Scripture looking for literal fulfillments. To most, the sun, moon and stars represent (and are) those things way up in the sky. Jacob didn't think so. He recognized them to be the heads of the 12 tribes of Israel, (the authority and leadership). You will find that when THESE SUN, MOON AND STARS are expressed as being bright, the nation of Israel fares well, they are victorious and prosperous. But make thoise things dark and Israel is headed for bad times, even judgment.
Such is the case with many passages in the NT including Isaiah 30:26, the one I tried to get you to understand about binding and healing. Bright cosmic objects (as literal cosmic entities don't have a thing to do with binding up the breaches, or healing the sin of the people...
It is the same type of thing going on in Matthew 24:29 and other passages in Revelation like Rev 6:13. The Hebrew idioms haven't changed one bit. But when one approaches the Scripture from that 21st century Western cultural scientific perspective, then all Hebrew language metaphors, figures, symbols and idioms are tossed out the window...
As for your question, I don't know much about Revelation. I need to know so much more about the OT, but I will venture a guess.
The woman is Israel [because she is the one who gives birth to the child (Messiah)] and because of the sun, moon and stars symbolisms...
Hi Joe, Please se my reply in red:
That won't work my friend. The EU is not organized or powerful enough to plan such a world-wide campaign. Furthermore, Rome cannot be the Harlot because the Lord was not crucified in Rome:
It will be very powerful in the future. Yes the Lord was not crucified in Rome but Rome/Romans killed many apostles and Christians including Jesus and yet it seemed to go unpunished in AD 70.How can the Beast who was supposed to be destroyed in AD 70 be Rome then?
Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Agree that city is Jerusalem but who were the 2 bodies? Any idea?
Therefore, to suggest to everyone that the Harlot is Rome does not fit with scripture. Additionally, The Harlot is burned to death by the Beast. So are you suggesting that Rome will be destroyed by the EU? As proven by scripture, the Harlot (which means someone who committed adultery against God by selling herself to a foreigner outside of God's relationship) represents the adulterous city, figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, is where the Lord was crucified. Literally, and historically, the Lord was crucified in Jerusalem.
The Harot is a city in which the Anti-christ dwells in which nations have traded with her and profited from the trade. They co-operated with the antichrist and were rewarded for their co-operations (committed adultery).
Are you now ready to believe? If not, at least believe scripture, for it shows that you are incorrect my loving friend.
Here we go again. Brother Cheow, God can do anything He wants. He can turn rocks into bread; stones into water; houses into space craft. He's God and He can do anything. But does scripture say that He will once again regather the Tribes in Israel? Does it also say that after regathering them, that He will send a harsh judgment upon them by permitting them to be tortured again? If so, where is this written? Since you believe that the Harlot is Rome, and the EU is the Beast, what does this have to do with the 12 Tribes? According to Revelation, the 12 Tribes were sealed from suffering this onslaught by the Beast; those in Israel that are not sealed would end up dying at the hands of this terrible Beast.
God could easily identified and sealed the 144,000 Jews before the destruction of the earth. Is there anything impossible for God. Jesus will sit on the throne ruling over the 12 tribes of Israel. If the 12 tribes of Israel are no more as you said then whence come the 12 tribes of Israel? Therefore, God must have gathered them gathered them together during the GWT when He judged all mankind who have died since the creation of the earth and would be able to gather who belonged to the 12 tribes of Israel.
I'm sorry my friend but your ideas severely contradict the entire book of Revelation. You've got to do much better than this if you ever want to convince outsiders (forgetting about Preterist) that your eschatology holds water. I wonder if Preterism can convince outsiders also?
Was the Lord crucified in Rome? No.
Will Rome burn itself? No.
Can the EU attack Rome? No because Rome doesn't exist...unless of course you mean the Roman Catholic Church; that would be a 7th Day Adventist teaching. EU do not attack Rome, God do.
I'm afraid your ideas are garbled my friend, and that without scriptural support.
This is very fascinating my friend. But are you suggesting that a world that is dominated by economics will somehow succumb to a lowly agency called the EU? Bro, this is all mere fantasy. Where the scripture to support this? What as the EU to do with where the Lord was crucified? How is the Harlot (ROME) where the Lord was crucified, and how are they also reckoned as Sodom and Egypt? Neither the scripture supports yours if Nero was the anti-christ, He died in Ad 67 and he never demanded people buy and sell unless he had the mark. Was Nero thrown into the lake of sulfur when he died in AD 67 instead of AD 70? Or was it Vespasian but he died in AD 79 instead of AD 70.
So will Christ literally descend from the sky with a literal sword from His mouth? Will He literally be riding a white horse? Doesn't this contradict Acts chapter 1 that states His return will be as He left. Was Christ riding a horse when He departed? Will the EU and Rome fight against a literal Messiah riding a white horse with a sword sticking out of His mouth?
Nobody with the right mind would expect Jesus to ride with a horse with a sword in his mouth, do you? Is God so low-tech when He could create the earth, sun, moon, planets and stars and everything on earth?Human can't even do that although we are trying to be like God by trying to create and harness fusion energy, the power source in which God create the sun and stars.
What then do the passages above speak of? God's judgment upon the nation that destroyed the Harlot. It also speaks of the invitation to the marriage supper of the lamb. Are you suggesting that the marriage has not yet happened? Do you not recall that the Lord told the Apostles that the people of His generation would suffer wrath and fall by the sword, and how He also stated that one would be taken, and the other left? The Apostles then asked, "Where Lord". His reply was, "where ever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather." What does this mean, and how does this connect with verses 17-18? Let's compare:
Matthew 24:28
For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
Luke 17:37
And they answered and said to Him, 'Where, Lord?' So He said to them, 'Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.'
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."
The verses above are about the antichrist who have deceived the people and where these people were killed that's where the eagles will gather and Jesus was warning them not to go where these people gathered and be deceived by the anti-christ:
Matthew 24:26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. See the connection?
See the connection? Now can this be future? Nope, it cannot. Because according to Luke, this was a first century generation fulfillment:
Luke 21:
20 'But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. That sounds more like the destruction of jerusalem in AD 70 but I am not very convinced unless I see Mount Pella or Roman armies in those verses. And that does not mean that the verses after 24 are talking about the destruction of Jerusalem in Ad 70.
The times of the Gentiles involved the final 7 years of its existence. When the war began, all heck broke lose, and Israel became a haunting place; a place of despair; a tomb stone filled with dead bodies. Daniel's city, temple, and people came to its end, like a large Mill-Stone thrown into the sea, never to be found again. The voice of the Bride and Bride Groom shall never be found in you again.
What never to be found? Jerusalem continue to exist throughout after AD 70 although rather obscure but now look at it today, it is a thriving city.
Revelation 18:23
23 The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. Look at Jerusalem today, are the lamps in Jerusalem not shining, the voice of marriage not heard anymore? what sorcery that all nations were deceived? Was it talking about Jerusalem or some other place?
Thus, as you can see, the Israel you expect to be built with the waive of God's magic wand is not written in scripture. IN FACT, Revelation 18:23 testifies against the eschatology you propose.
I'll let you ponder over that one. I merely stated that the 1000 years could be just a simple day to us. But you choose to make this a literal 1000 years, when not even the Greek word agrees with you. The Text reads, "Chillias", and not "Chillia". This means that the Greek word is plural, indicating an undetermined amount of time. However, as stated, following your own rules, the 1000 years could also be "A Day". For the "DAY OF THE LORD", that is, "The 1000 years of the Lord" shall come like a thief in the night. But why 1,000 years is 40 years to Ad 70? If 1,000 years is aday or a day is 1,000 years it doesn't matter. God ca make an eternity into a second and a second into an eternity. But please explain why 1,000 years reign must mean 40 years to Ad 70.
I'm just trying to set you free from the daily tabloids my friend. But only you can make that first step. If you want to remain in the confused state as a Futurist, that is your choice. But keep in mind that I, and many such as myself, were once Futurist's. So what they teach is nothing knew; well perhaps the data itself has changed within the past 20 years or so. But this EU thing, Rome Thing, and Micro-Chip is all man-made jargon that has no place in the Church; it is all mere fiction and based on a false eschatology that has a very long history of being wrong. Why make more history confirming this point? I am equally confused with preterism and I believe others as well.... 1,000 years to mean 40 years, 200 million man army to mean many armies, antichrist to mean Nero etc. etc. I believe preterists are as confused as futurists. No one is to blame, Revelation is not an easy book to understand.
Joe
Mr.Bebe
10-15-2011, 01:48 AM
Good Day to All.
It's my first post here. Bear with my English.
(Rev 9:16 LITV) And the number of the armies of the cavalry was two myriads of myriads; and I heard their number.
(Rev 9:17 ASV) And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates as of fire and of hyacinth and of brimstone: and the heads of lions; and out of their mouths proceedeth fire and smoke and brimstone.
Who are these people? What we have about them are:
(a) their size that was only heard by John and
(b) the color 'jacinth' which is a hint.
Let’s deal first with their size. Some bible translators translate their size as 'two hundred million,' that is two ten thousand times ten thousand. Which is correct 'two myriads of myriads' or 'two hundred million'? Maybe it will help if we knew who these people are.
Now, read the following verse:
(Dan 7:10 LITV) A stream of fire went out and came out from before Him. A thousand thousands served Him, and a myriad myriads stood before Him. The judgment was set and the books were opened.
This verse shows a group of thousand thousands and another group of myriad myriads. They are distinct from one another. Look again at Rev 9:16. Have we overlooked something here? Could their size be express as two groups of (myriad of myriads) or two groups of (ten thousand times ten thousand)? Let’s know their identity.
What is this color hyacinth or jacinth in Rev 9:17?
Strong’s Greek Dictionary
G5191
ὑακιìνθινος
huakinthinos
hoo-ak-in’-thee-nos
From G5192; 'hyacinthine' or 'jacinthine', that is, deep blue: – jacinth.
This word as you can see is from another word:
Strong’s Greek Dictionary
G5192
ὑαìκινθος
huakinthos
hoo-ak’-in-thos
Of uncertain derivation; the 'hyacinth' or 'jacinth', that is, some gem of a deep blue color, probably the zirkon: – jacinth.
In the vision of the New Jerusalem in chapter 21 of Revelation, it is written:
(Rev 21:19 ASV) The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald;
(Rev 21:20 ASV) the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst.
In the 11th foundation you will find the gem jacinth numbered G5192 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary (the second word defined above). It is in the 11th foundation. Now let’s go to chapter 7 of this book and find the corresponding name of the tribe of Israel with the same ordinal number – 11th.
(Rev 7:4 ASV) And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
(Rev 7:5 ASV) Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand: Of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
(Rev 7:6 ASV) Of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand;
(Rev 7:7 ASV) Of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand;
(Rev 7:8 ASV) Of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Did you find it? The reader might wonder what is the relationship between the 'New Jerusalem' and the 144,000 sealed servants of God. Just google the following phrase 'New Jerusalem 144,000″ (without the quotations). Let’s continue, we know that this tribe is divided further into two groups or tribes – Ephraim and Manasseh. Are they the two groups of (myriad of myriads) troops God is using to unleash the three plagues?
(Joe 3:14 ESV) Multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Notice the phrase 'Multitudes, multitudes' – is it an idiom (Hebrew) or is it referring to the 2 (myriads of myriads) troops here in the 6th Trumpet, or both?
WISDOM AND GLORY BELONGS TO OUR GOD AND TO OUR LORD YESHUA
Richard Amiel McGough
10-15-2011, 07:42 AM
Good Day to All.
It's my first post here. Bear with my English.
Hell Mr. Bebe, :yo:
Welcome to our forum.
:welcome:
(Rev 9:16 LITV) And the number of the armies of the cavalry was two myriads of myriads; and I heard their number.
(Rev 9:17 ASV) And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates as of fire and of hyacinth and of brimstone: and the heads of lions; and out of their mouths proceedeth fire and smoke and brimstone.
Who are these people? What we have about them are:
(a) their size that was only heard by John and
(b) the color 'jacinth' which is a hint.
Let’s deal first with their size. Some bible translators translate their size as 'two hundred million,' that is two ten thousand times ten thousand. Which is correct 'two myriads of myriads' or 'two hundred million'? Maybe it will help if we knew who these people are.
Now, read the following verse:
(Dan 7:10 LITV) A stream of fire went out and came out from before Him. A thousand thousands served Him, and a myriad myriads stood before Him. The judgment was set and the books were opened.
This verse shows a group of thousand thousands and another group of myriad myriads. They are distinct from one another. Look again at Rev 9:16. Have we overlooked something here? Could their size be express as two groups of (myriad of myriads) or two groups of (ten thousand times ten thousand)? Let’s know their identity.
How do you know there are two separate groups? It looks like typical Hebraic parallelism to me. The words "thousands" and "myriads" are not necessarily to be taken as precise numerical values. They could both mean the same thing, namely "many."
What is this color hyacinth or jacinth in Rev 9:17?
Strong’s Greek Dictionary
G5191
ὑακιìνθινος
huakinthinos
hoo-ak-in’-thee-nos
From G5192; 'hyacinthine' or 'jacinthine', that is, deep blue: – jacinth.
This word as you can see is from another word:
Strong’s Greek Dictionary
G5192
ὑαìκινθος
huakinthos
hoo-ak’-in-thos
Of uncertain derivation; the 'hyacinth' or 'jacinth', that is, some gem of a deep blue color, probably the zirkon: – jacinth.
In the vision of the New Jerusalem in chapter 21 of Revelation, it is written:
(Rev 21:19 ASV) The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald;
(Rev 21:20 ASV) the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst.
In the 11th foundation you will find the gem jacinth numbered G5192 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary (the second word defined above). It is in the 11th foundation. Now let’s go to chapter 7 of this book and find the corresponding name of the tribe of Israel with the same ordinal number – 11th.
(Rev 7:4 ASV) And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
(Rev 7:5 ASV) Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand: Of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
(Rev 7:6 ASV) Of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand;
(Rev 7:7 ASV) Of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand;
(Rev 7:8 ASV) Of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Did you find it? The reader might wonder what is the relationship between the 'New Jerusalem' and the 144,000 sealed servants of God. Just google the following phrase 'New Jerusalem 144,000″ (without the quotations). Let’s continue, we know that this tribe is divided further into two groups or tribes – Ephraim and Manasseh. Are they the two groups of (myriad of myriads) troops God is using to unleash the three plagues?
(Joe 3:14 ESV) Multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Notice the phrase 'Multitudes, multitudes' – is it an idiom (Hebrew) or is it referring to the 2 (myriads of myriads) troops here in the 6th Trumpet, or both?
WISDOM AND GLORY BELONGS TO OUR GOD AND TO OUR LORD YESHUA
The eleventh tribe listed is Joseph, father of Manasseh and Ephraim.
So I'm guessing you are a believer in "British Israelitism" - that the "Gentiles" are really the "lost tribes" of Israel, represented by Manasseh Ephraim? Is that correct?
As for getting an answer from Google concerning the New Jerusalem and the 144,000 - Google will give me every answer out there and so I don't know which one you intended. You'll have to be a little more specific on this one.
All the best,
Richard
heb13-13
10-15-2011, 08:40 AM
My apologies. I posted in the wrong thread and meant to post in "John Hagee Predicts More Doom and Gloom".
heb13-13
10-15-2011, 08:58 AM
My question on the drying up of the Euphrates is why?
Is this what it really means?
Do you think when the Euphrates is dried up there will be a nice, smooth road at the bottom of it so 200 million men can march?
And with Jets and Missiles, why march 200 million men from China through the Euphrates? How do they even get to the Euphrates to begin with?
I can't take Hagee seriously.
I have a question. Don't you think the Harlot is the fallen away church which is the false, counterfeit church that has killed the saints of God through the centuries? The false church or congregation can be seen from Cain all the way through to Revelation. Cain was religious and offered
For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication (spiritual fornication), and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. Rev 19:2
Isn't the Great Whore, all those that "go a whoring after other gods."
Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice; Exo 34:15
For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee. Psa 73:27
... Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: Rev 17:1
The Great Whore seems to be on every continent. Worldwide. I know people say the RCC has an ambassador in every country but saying the Great Whore is the RCC is a smoke screen.
And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. Rev 17:15
It puts all spiritual adultery on the RCC and no one else, when we know the Protestant "church" is guilty of great whoredom. And great whoredom is not confined to organizations.
Whoredom applies to all people who call themselves the "people of God" on earth that go a whoring after false gods. God's judgment is upon the foolish virgins who are not obeying the Word of God. In many places the Scriptures refer to these foolish virgins as the harlot. This great whore is also known as Babylon!
Looks like there are going to be 2 suppers.
The Marriage Supper of the Lamb and this supper (below).
And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. Rev 19:17-18
I don't think I want to be at that supper.
What are "all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven?"
A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. Luk 8:5
And when he sowed, someseedsfell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: Mat 13:4
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luk 8:11-12
The DEVIL and the other powers of darkness are the fowls.
It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it. Luk 13:19
Tell me that the counterfeit and the true don't lodge together, today.
Let the tares and wheat grow up together... Matthew 13.
The Fowls of the Air and the Beasts of the Field are the Powers of Darkness.
And I will leave thee thrown into the wilderness, thee and all the fish of thy rivers: thou shalt fall upon the open fields; thou shalt not be brought together, nor gathered: I have given thee for meat to the beasts of the field and to the fowls of the heaven. Eze 29:5 (judgement and chastening)
When you forsake God, His hedge comes down in your life and you are open season for the powers of darkness.
He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it; and whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him. Ecc 10:8
You "break your hedge" when you forsake the Lord and commit spiritual fornication. The "serpent" will bite you. You will reap what you sow. Repentance brings the hedge back up in your life, although, you may suffer temporary loss. Do not despise the chastening (lowering the hedge) of the Lord.
And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: Isa 5:5
And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns (Instead of good fruit. When the the hedge comes down the powers of darkness come in to ravage Israel. The surrounding nations are easily influence by the powers of darkness and God will use them as chastening on Israel) : I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. (No more refreshing water from heaven. Words of comfort and life and blessing). Isa 5:6
The HEDGE is the Lord's Protection.
For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry. Isa 5:7
WE BRING THE HEDGE DOWN IN OUR LIVES and then blame GOD for being mean. We subject ourselves to the powers of darkness but then blame God for hurting us.
In the physical world there are laws of nature and there is cause and effect if these laws are adhered to or not.
In the spiritual world there there are laws which have cause and effect if broken or adhered to.
Today, the "virgins" are sleeping and the Church is slumbering. The Lord is saying, "Wake up, sleeping virgins."
We have much more to worry about than China and Russia.
We are living in the time of the most alarming condition that I think, has ever existed in church history. Satan and the powers of darkness are no longer restrained. The hedge is being removed. Never have there been such problems, pressures, divisions, confusion, suspicion and hate as exist in the church today. This is the shaking of the last days and this is the day of the Lord. The judgment of God has come to us.
The wise virgins and the foolish virgins alike have fallen asleep. A trumpet of warning is now blowing: "Wherefore He saith, Awake thou that sleepest and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools (foolish virgins), but as wise (virgins)"
Eph. 5:14,15
Jeremiah said, "Publish, and conceal not: say, Babylon (the harlot church) is taken...My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray...All (of the powers of darkness) that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the Lord (by breaking God's laws, the hedge is down)... For lo, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon an assembly of great nations from the north country...and they shall set themselves in array against her; from thence she shall be taken (captive)...Put yourselves in array against Babylon round about...for she hath sinned against the Lord" (Jer. 50:2, 5, 6, 9, 14)
In the book of Isaiah we read: "I have commanded my sanctified ones (the powers of darkness), I have also called my mighty ones (God's army of vengeance and destruction) for Mine anger" (Isa 13:3)
God's mighty ones are the army of darkness that God has unleashed against the false church. They execute God's wrath in vengeance for the lawlessness of the church. Just as God sent an evil spirit to Saul for transgressing His command, He is doing the same today (1 Sam. 15:22-24; 16:14-15).
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (1Ti 4:1)
Not one demon does anything without the permission of God.
Today's church "leaders" would rather talk about China and Russia and Israel than calling the foolish virgins, including themselves to wake up. They don't preach the WHOLE COUNSEL of God because if they did, they would be out of a job. They pick and choose in the Word, what to preach, thereby keeping the sheep in blindness. Only those that come to the Lord with all their heart can be set free from spiritual slumber and sleep.
If you come to God's Word with all your heart then you will experience reality, but if you don't come to God's Word with all your heart, you are just going to have a "religious" experience and you will use God's Word for your own ends. God's Word will then just be a curse to you instead of a blessing.
Till next time,
Come to the Lord Jesus with your whole heart and do not be joined to anything else (idols) in your heart but Him.
Rick
Richard Amiel McGough
10-15-2011, 10:04 AM
Sorry for the confusion folks. I moved the new comments starting with Mr. Bebe's to their own thread because I thought there were off topic, but then realized my mistake.
Please carry on!
Richard Amiel McGough
10-15-2011, 12:12 PM
My question on the drying up of the Euphrates is why?
Is this what it really means?
Do you think when the Euphrates is dried up there will be a nice, smooth road at the bottom of it so 200 million men can march?
And with Jets and Missiles, why march 200 million men from China through the Euphrates? How do they even get to the Euphrates to begin with?
I can't take Hagee seriously.
Excellent points. Futurists have wedded themselves to the "literal" interpretation which is in fact a meaningless hermeneutic. It leads them to all kinds of absurd interpretations, such as the idea that the yet future war of Gog and Magog will be fought on horseback with wooden weapons because that's what the text "literally" says. :doh:
As for why anyone on the planet would take Hagee seriously? That's a deep mystery. Did you know that he explicitly denied that Jesus came to be Messiah? Read this thread and weep:
The Apostasy of John Hagee: Jesus was NOT the Messiah! (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229)
Let me know what you think after you get your jaw lifted up off the floor. This guy influences thousands of people!
I have a question. Don't you think the Harlot is the fallen away church which is the false, counterfeit church that has killed the saints of God through the centuries? The false church or congregation can be seen from Cain all the way through to Revelation. Cain was religious and offered
For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication (spiritual fornication), and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. Rev 19:2
Most Futurists and Historicists interpret it that way. Preterists say she is Apostate Jerusalem who was judged by God in the first century, just like Jesus predicted:
Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
This prophecy was fulfilled in the judgment of the Great Harlot (note: the blue text is very similar to the prophecy against apostate Jerusalem given in Jeremiah 25:10):
Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon [Apostate Jerusalem, Rev 11:8] be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
It seems to me that the Biblical case is overwhelming. The time texts all point to the first century. The text identifies Jerusalem as the "great city" aka Sodom, Egypt, and in Revelation 17-18, Mystery Babylon, the Great Harlot. She is identified again by the colors and clothing of the apostate Levitical priesthood (fine linen, purple, and scarlet) which identifies no other group in the Bible. The evidence goes on and on like this. Revelation is the fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse which was the prophecy of the judgment that was to come down on Apostate Jerusalem in the first century. The fulfillment of these prophecies is the only solid historical evidence for predictive prophecy in the Bible. I find it most amazing that it is either unknown to or rejected by the vast majority of Christians.
... Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: Rev 17:1
The Great Whore seems to be on every continent. Worldwide. I know people say the RCC has an ambassador in every country but saying the Great Whore is the RCC is a smoke screen.
And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. Rev 17:15
It puts all spiritual adultery on the RCC and no one else, when we know the Protestant "church" is guilty of great whoredom. And great whoredom is not confined to organizations.
This is one of the most common errors in all Biblical interpretations. There is nothing in Revelation that speaks of the "world" as the "globe of planet earth." The term "world" refers to the region centered on Israel. That was their "world." We have discussed this at great length in this forum and the facts have been solidly established. Check out the thread Is the World the World (http://biblewheel.com/forum/biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1535).
Also, you have made the mistake of thinking the waters are literal. How is that possible? You just quoted the verse that says the waters are a symbol of "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues" (Revelation 17:15).
The "whoredom" speaks of the apostasy of first century Jerusalem who crucified Christ and fornicated with the Roman beast.
All the best,
Richard
TheForgiven
10-15-2011, 01:31 PM
Wow Richard! That's got to be some of the finest work I've seen to date; very precise and elegant with ease of reading, without having to overstate your points often leading to confusion. :thumb: I guess the best way to discuss things is to keep your points straight to the point, and keep it simple. Know the old saying, "Keep it simple idiot!" :lol: I tend to be quite the idiot.
I too am astonished as to why so many Christians have a difficult time accepting ancient Israel as the Harlot (Apostate Israel) that sits on many waters (Rome). The picture fits so perfectly; even the colors of the Jewish Priesthood; not to mention the ones Christ held responsible for all the bloodshed of the "then" earth, just as He declared in Matthew 23 to the false Jews.
I'll keep my post short too. :lol:
Joe
Richard Amiel McGough
10-15-2011, 07:56 PM
Wow Richard! That's got to be some of the finest work I've seen to date; very precise and elegant with ease of reading, without having to overstate your points often leading to confusion. :thumb: I guess the best way to discuss things is to keep your points straight to the point, and keep it simple. Know the old saying, "Keep it simple idiot!" :lol: I tend to be quite the idiot.
I too am astonished as to why so many Christians have a difficult time accepting ancient Israel as the Harlot (Apostate Israel) that sits on many waters (Rome). The picture fits so perfectly; even the colors of the Jewish Priesthood; not to mention the ones Christ held responsible for all the bloodshed of the "then" earth, just as He declared in Matthew 23 to the false Jews.
I'll keep my post short too. :lol:
Joe
Thanks for the kind words.
Less is more!
heb13-13
10-15-2011, 08:20 PM
As for why anyone on the planet would take Hagee seriously? That's a deep mystery. Did you know that he explicitly denied that Jesus came to be Messiah? Read this thread and weep:
The Apostasy of John Hagee: Jesus was NOT the Messiah! (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229)
Let me know what you think after you get your jaw lifted up off the floor. This guy influences thousands of people!
Yes, I read about that when his book was first published. I did not think much him then and I have not changed my opinion to date. When I heard it, my jaw did not really drop. I have come to expect this from the religious system.
Most Futurists and Historicists interpret it that way. Preterists say she is Apostate Jerusalem who was judged by God in the first century, just like Jesus predicted:
Where does the Apostate church fit into the Preterist's teaching? What do they say about the present day Harlot? Is there not dual or triple meaning allowed by the Preterists? Harlot in the OT, Harlot Jerusalem and Harlot Church?
Also, you have made the mistake of thinking the waters are literal. How is that possible?
That was a mistake. I recall dimly after submitting this post (it was late at night) that I did say that and it came out differently than I meant. But the Apostate Church is still all over the world, wouldn't you agree and it is not just the RCC. The RCC is a cult. They deny being born-again by the Spirit of God, believing rather in the Eucharist as the actual body, blood and divinity of Jesus Christ. They did not read all the way down in John 6. "...the flesh profiteth nothing."
So, I clearly see the Harlot Church (Congregation) in the OT, in the NT and through the centuries up until today. What say you?
And the scriptures are also clear to me that God will have a Remnant in every generation.
For the record, when I was a young pup in the Lord (less than a year old), shortly after I received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, someone (I think the Navigators) introduced me to the Rapture. I just never saw it in Scripture an did not get a witness from the Spirit of God. It seemed made up to me and did not make sense. They said after the Rapture that the Holy Spirit is taken off of the earth and people will get saved because of all the Bible stores and Christian literature around. Are you kidding me? Why doesn't that happen now? Just did not make sense to me and still does not.
The "whoredom" speaks of the apostasy of first century Jerusalem who crucified Christ and fornicated with the Roman beast.
Again, where is the allowance of all the "whoredom" today by the Preterists? I confess I am largely ignorant of Preterism, so please bear with my questions.
Oh, one more thing, do Preterists say that everything in Revelation has already happened?
All the best to you,
Rick
All the best,
Richard
TheForgiven
10-15-2011, 08:34 PM
Oh, one more thing, do Preterists say that everything in Revelation has already happened?
All the best to you,
Rick
Hello Rick! Welcome to the Biblewheel.:welcome: You'll find that Richard is a very good teacher to learn from. I won't get involved with your discussions so I don't step on Richards toes. :lol: But to answer your question my friend, there are two branches of Preterism:
1. Partial Preterism
2. Full Preterism
Partial Preterism believes that 95% percent of Revelation has been fulfilled. According to this belief, we are in the post millennial reign of Jesus, and Satan is actively getting ready for his final battle. The reign of Christ began with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, which is when the Saints who first died in Christ, were raised to be with the Lord, and are all now watching/governing the world. They believe in a physical bodily resurrection when the Church Age, also referred to as the Millennium, comes to an end.
Full Preterism believes that everything has been fulfilled. Now there are some differences within Full Preterism. Most full preterists believes that everything was fulfilled at 70AD. Others say that most was fulfilled at 70AD, with a few more years after the death of the Roman Empire; this group is very small though. FP's do not believe in a bodily resurrection of our corpse as there is nothing to raise. The body we get in heaven is a newly created spiritual body to serve as the eternal temple of our spirit. The Body of Jesus did not suffer decay (as was Prophesied) and was also used as a sacrifice for the heavenly altar. We are living in the New Heaven and New Earth as depicted in the book of Isaiah, were people still die, although live much longer than the ancients did. The average life span of the ancients was about 30 to 50 years of age, give or take. While today we are living well beyond 100 years of age.
Hope this answers your question. Again, welcome to the forum.
Joe
Richard Amiel McGough
10-15-2011, 09:30 PM
As for why anyone on the planet would take Hagee seriously? That's a deep mystery. Did you know that he explicitly denied that Jesus came to be Messiah? Read this thread and weep:
The Apostasy of John Hagee: Jesus was NOT the Messiah! (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229)
Let me know what you think after you get your jaw lifted up off the floor. This guy influences thousands of people!
Yes, I read about that when his book was first published. I did not think much him then and I have not changed my opinion to date. When I heard it, my jaw did not really drop. I have come to expect this from the religious system.
Good to hear.
Most Futurists and Historicists interpret it that way. Preterists say she is Apostate Jerusalem who was judged by God in the first century, just like Jesus predicted:
Where does the Apostate church fit into the Preterist's teaching? What do they say about the present day Harlot? Is there not dual or triple meaning allowed by the Preterists? Harlot in the OT, Harlot Jerusalem and Harlot Church?
Is there are reason we should expect the "apostate church" to be mentioned in the Bible? When did the "apostate church" begin? In the first century, e.g. Galatians? I see nothing that makes me think it should be a part of Revelation since that book is about the fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse.
Also, you have made the mistake of thinking the waters are literal. How is that possible?
That was a mistake. I recall dimly after submitting this post (it was late at night) that I did say that and it came out differently than I meant. But the Apostate Church is still all over the world, wouldn't you agree and it is not just the RCC. The RCC is a cult. They deny being born-again by the Spirit of God, believing rather in the Eucharist as the actual body, blood and divinity of Jesus Christ. They did not read all the way down in John 6. "...the flesh profiteth nothing."
Thanks for clearing up the mistake. Certainly understandable. But as for the Eucharist - you disagree with many early Christians concerning that. But there's no need to hash it out now.
So, I clearly see the Harlot Church (Congregation) in the OT, in the NT and through the centuries up until today. What say you?
I explored the Historicist interpretation some years ago. It was the first that I thought was most plausible. I then learn more and concluded that Preterism fit the facts best, though it has many flaws. Then I quit Christianity so I don't have a dog in this fight anymore. But I still think the best evidence is for Preterism. Historicism has some intriguing support, but it is too many problems. And Futurism is simply impossible - it has no Biblical foundation whatsoever.
And the scriptures are also clear to me that God will have a Remnant in every generation.
Really? I'm not familiar with those Scriptures. And it depends upon what you mean by "remnant." The first century "remnant" of faithful Israel was unique in the Biblical narrative. They were the ones chosen (elect) to found the church.
For the record, when I was a young pup in the Lord (less than a year old), shortly after I received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, someone (I think the Navigators) introduced me to the Rapture. I just never saw it in Scripture an did not get a witness from the Spirit of God. It seemed made up to me and did not make sense. They said after the Rapture that the Holy Spirit is taken off of the earth and people will get saved because of all the Bible stores and Christian literature around. Are you kidding me? Why doesn't that happen now? Just did not make sense to me and still does not.
That's very interesting. I had a similar experience. One of my first posts (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=92&postcount=3) after creating this forum in which I first stated that I did not believe in the Rapture. It's very interesting to look and see how I used to speak and express my faith. I was very insecure about expressing my ideas since they were contrary to the beliefs of most Christians I knew.
The "whoredom" speaks of the apostasy of first century Jerusalem who crucified Christ and fornicated with the Roman beast.
Again, where is the allowance of all the "whoredom" today by the Preterists? I confess I am largely ignorant of Preterism, so please bear with my questions.
That's cool. I have no problem with questions - on the contrary, I love them!
Oh, one more thing, do Preterists say that everything in Revelation has already happened?
All the best to you,
Rick
There are varieties of Preterists just like in everything else. The big distinction is between Partial and Full Preterists. Partial Preterists usually say that everything up to Rev 20 has been fulfilled. But the problem with that view is that the New Jerusalem is a symbol of the Church, and so already here. Or so it seems to Full Preterists, anyway.
Great chatting!
Richard
Quote:
Originally Posted by heb13-13
My question on the drying up of the Euphrates is why?
Is this what it really means?
Do you think when the Euphrates is dried up there will be a nice, smooth road at the bottom of it so 200 million men can march?
And with Jets and Missiles, why march 200 million men from China through the Euphrates? How do they even get to the Euphrates to begin with?
I can't take Hagee seriously.
Can Jets and Missiles conquer a nation? Don't be so naive, no wars can be fought with Jets and Missiles only, if not, why didn't the US did that in the Korean War, Vietnam, war, Afghanistan? That will certainly save many young soldiers lives. In any war, infantry men, tanks are indispensible in order to fight, occupy and defend the conquered territory.
If you read Revelation carefully, there is a call from Satan perhaps deceivingly with signs to all the kings on the earth to fight in Armageddon. This is the mother of all battle. It's like the United Nations mobilizing all the countries of the world to gather at a certain region to fight an alien invasion. The current armed forces of the world if you add them up together is almost 200 million army strong. Armageddon should be at least 200 square kilometers in order to easily accommodate 200 million army. This is based on 1 soldier occupying a square meter of space (1,000 meter X 1,000 meter = 1,000,000 soldiers, therefore 200 million army = 200 square kilometers). Israel is currently more than 20,000 square kilometers in size which can easily accommodate the 200 million army with ample space to spare :
Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.................16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
God blessings to all. Amen :pray:
heb13-13
10-16-2011, 07:55 AM
Hello Rick! Welcome to the Biblewheel.:welcome:
Hey there Joe,
Thanks for the intro. This is generating more questions for me, but since this really seems to me now to be a forum of Preterists vs Futurists, I won't bore you with my questions. I just need to "bone" up on Preterism from this site's past threads.
You'll find that Richard is a very good teacher to learn from. I won't get involved with your discussions so I don't step on Richards toes. :lol: But to answer your question my friend, there are two branches of Preterism:
1. Partial Preterism
2. Full Preterism
Partial Preterism believes that 95% percent of Revelation has been fulfilled. According to this belief, we are in the post millennial reign of Jesus, and Satan is actively getting ready for his final battle.
Ok, so you believe Satan is not a pagan superstition?
The reign of Christ began with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, which is when the Saints who first died in Christ, were raised to be with the Lord, and are all now watching/governing the world.
How are they governing the world? Can you give me some examples? Are they actually walking around? If so, are you able to point them out?
They believe in a physical bodily resurrection when the Church Age, also referred to as the Millennium, comes to an end.
Full Preterism believes that everything has been fulfilled. Now there are some differences within Full Preterism. Most full preterists believes that everything was fulfilled at 70AD. Others say that most was fulfilled at 70AD, with a few more years after the death of the Roman Empire; this group is very small though. FP's do not believe in a bodily resurrection of our corpse as there is nothing to raise. The body we get in heaven is a newly created spiritual body to serve as the eternal temple of our spirit. The Body of Jesus did not suffer decay (as was Prophesied) and was also used as a sacrifice for the heavenly altar. We are living in the New Heaven and New Earth as depicted in the book of Isaiah, were people still die, although live much longer than the ancients did. The average life span of the ancients was about 30 to 50 years of age, give or take. While today we are living well beyond 100 years of age.
Well beyond 100?? Maybe .00001 of 1%. I don't know any centenarians, personally, just the few I hear on the news once or twice a year.
Hope this answers your question. Again, welcome to the forum.
Thanks Joe.
Joe
heb13-13
10-16-2011, 08:04 AM
Can Jets and Missiles conquer a nation? Don't be so naive, no wars can be fought with Jets and Missiles only, if not, why didn't the US did that in the Korean War, Vietnam, war, Afghanistan? That will certainly save many young soldiers lives. In any war, infantry men, tanks are indispensible in order to fight, occupy and defend the conquered territory.
If you read Revelation carefully, there is a call from Satan perhaps deceivingly with signs to all the kings on the earth to fight in Armageddon. This is the mother of all battle. It's like the United Nations mobilizing all the countries of the world to gather at a certain region to fight an alien invasion. The current armed forces of the world if you add them up together is almost 200 million army strong. Armageddon should be at least 200 square kilometers in order to easily accommodate 200 million army. This is based on 1 soldier occupying a square meter of space (1,000 meter X 1,000 meter = 1,000,000 soldiers, therefore 200 million army = 200 square kilometers). Israel is currently more than 20,000 square kilometers in size which can easily accommodate the 200 million army with ample space to spare :
Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.................16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
God blessings to all. Amen :pray:
Hi CWH,
Yes, of course missiles and jets just "soften up" the enemy. I think we have seen that carried out pretty well in the Persian Gulf wars. But the logistics of moving 200 million men through a bumpy, rocky dried up river bed with huge dried up cracks that a Hummer could probably fall into justs boggles the mind. They are going to have to build a road as they march and then the 200 million men will have to wait and wait and wait.
Why don't they just dry it up, build a road and then tell the 200 million men in China to start marching? By the way, does the Euphrates reach all the way to China? I have not looked, yet.
God's blessings to you my friend,
Rick
heb13-13
10-16-2011, 08:13 AM
Good to hear.
Is there are reason we should expect the "apostate church" to be mentioned in the Bible? When did the "apostate church" begin? In the first century, e.g. Galatians? I see nothing that makes me think it should be a part of Revelation since that book is about the fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse.
Ok, so then you DO recognize an "apostate church", today but you don't see it in scripture? From what I am seeing, Preterism shows the beginning of the milennial reign, but has no details or anything even of a general nature that takes place during the milennial reign. Is that correct?
Thanks for clearing up the mistake. Certainly understandable. But as for the Eucharist - you disagree with many early Christians concerning that. But there's no need to hash it out now.
Yes, but I don't disagree with the plain sayings of Jesus. "The flesh profiteth nothing." I know, I know, it's just my interpretation, right?
Have you ever eaten the Eucharist, Richard on a weekly basis? Is Roman Catholicism, your background?
Hope you have a wonderful day,
Rick
Great chatting!
Richard
Twospirits
10-16-2011, 08:38 AM
heb13-13 wrote,
Hey there Joe,
Thanks for the intro. This is generating more questions for me, but since this really seems to me now to be a forum of Preterists vs Futurists, I won't bore you with my questions. I just need to "bone" up on Preterism from this site's past threads.
By your statement I take it that you hold to a future fulfillment of scripture, or am I wrong in assuming this? Thanks, and welcome to the forum! :welcome:
God bless---Twospirits
Richard Amiel McGough
10-16-2011, 08:59 AM
Hi CWH,
Yes, of course missiles and jets just "soften up" the enemy. I think we have seen that carried out pretty well in the Persian Gulf wars. But the logistics of moving 200 million men through a bumpy, rocky dried up river bed with huge dried up cracks that a Hummer could probably fall into justs boggles the mind. They are going to have to build a road as they march and then the 200 million men will have to wait and wait and wait.
Why don't they just dry it up, build a road and then tell the 200 million men in China to start marching? By the way, does the Euphrates reach all the way to China? I have not looked, yet.
God's blessings to you my friend,
Rick
The logistics of moving a 200,000,000 man army proves that that passage can not be taken literally.
Richard Amiel McGough
10-16-2011, 09:13 AM
Is there are reason we should expect the "apostate church" to be mentioned in the Bible? When did the "apostate church" begin? In the first century, e.g. Galatians? I see nothing that makes me think it should be a part of Revelation since that book is about the fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse.
Ok, so then you DO recognize an "apostate church", today but you don't see it in scripture? From what I am seeing, Preterism shows the beginning of the milennial reign, but has no details or anything even of a general nature that takes place during the milennial reign. Is that correct?
When I was a Christian, I recognized that there were "apostate churches." But now, I see them as all wrong, so there is no "orthodox church" against which to judge an "apostate church." But none of that matters because the Bible doesn't focus on "apostate churches" anywhere in the Bible. The Great Harlot was apostate Jerusalem who rejected and killed the Messiah.
As for a "millennial reign" - there is no verse in the Bible that says Christ will reign on earth for a thousand years. Rev 20 does not say where he will be reigning, and the "kingdom" passages of the OT are applied to the church by Paul. This is why many Futurists are amillennial - like Henry (Twospirits).
Thanks for clearing up the mistake. Certainly understandable. But as for the Eucharist - you disagree with many early Christians concerning that. But there's no need to hash it out now.
Yes, but I don't disagree with the plain sayings of Jesus. "The flesh profiteth nothing." I know, I know, it's just my interpretation, right?
Are you rejecting the opinions of those who believe in transubstantiation as "just their interpretation?" It's either "your interpretation" or "their interpretation." Who's to judge? That's why they say they need the Pope, citing the 10,000 Protestant denominations as proof. Of course I think they are wrong, but the argument looks compelling to many people.
Have you ever eaten the Eucharist, Richard on a weekly basis? Is Roman Catholicism, your background?
I was baptized Catholic as a baby but raised by an unbelieving father and never practiced that religion. But I did have a brief encounter with the Catholic Church and the Eucharist that was very profound and mystical during my transition from being a non-specific "religious mystic" to becoming a born-again Christian. I thought for a while that I would convert to Catholicism but it never took.
Hope you have a wonderful day,
Rick
You too!
heb13-13
10-16-2011, 11:55 AM
When I was a Christian, I recognized that there were "apostate churches." But now, I see them as all wrong, so there is no "orthodox church" against which to judge an "apostate church." But none of that matters because the Bible doesn't focus on "apostate churches" anywhere in the Bible. The Great Harlot was apostate Jerusalem who rejected and killed the Messiah.
As for a "millennial reign" - there is no verse in the Bible that says Christ will reign on earth for a thousand years. Rev 20 does not say where he will be reigning, and the "kingdom" passages of the OT are applied to the church by Paul. This is why many Futurists are amillennial - like Henry (Twospirits).
Are you rejecting the opinions of those who believe in transubstantiation as "just their interpretation?" It's either "your interpretation" or "their interpretation." Who's to judge? That's why they say they need the Pope, citing the 10,000 Protestant denominations as proof. Of course I think they are wrong, but the argument looks compelling to many people.
Yes, I reject them wholeheartedly. The Catholic church has hundreds and hundreds of schisms within itself.
I was baptized Catholic as a baby but raised by an unbelieving father and never practiced that religion. But I did have a brief encounter with the Catholic Church and the Eucharist that was very profound and mystical during my transition from being a non-specific "religious mystic" to becoming a born-again Christian. I thought for a while that I would convert to Catholicism but it never took.
Not saying people don't have a "mystical" experience. I was raised RCC. Both parents educated as good Jesuits. From first grade through University, they were educated in Jesuit schools only. Grandparents from Tuscany, Jesuit too. I was an altar boy back when altar boys had to speak Latin.
Transubstantiation and the Eucharist is a manipulative gimmick that keeps people coming to the Church because they cannot get it (the Eucharist) anywhere else. Not many would be attending the RCC if not for this and Auricular Confession (also very manipulative). It provides no power or fruit in their lives. My father would take the Eucharist each Sunday and as soon as he walked out of the church doors, he was cursing God's name. The priest used to cuss at me and call me an MF. The eucharist only manipulates the masses. It was decreed in 1215 along with Auricular Confession to be divinely inspired. If the RCC has always existed since the first century, and people in the 1st century believed in it, why did they wait so long to decree it as inspired and divine.
If you truly believed in transubstantiation you would be in the Catholic church now.
The RCC is a patchwork gospel. Always changing which is contrary to what they say (they say they never change). Soon, you will hear that Mary has been decreed as Co-Mediatrix to Jesus Christ. They have been campaigning for this for decades and the "faithful" have just about bought off on it. There will not be much struggle once the RCC adds yet another "patch" to their quilt, a Co-mediatrix patch.
Would you like me to tell you about some of their schisms?
The feminist movement wants a greater role for women in liturgical matters even to the point of ordination to the priesthood.
The celibacy crowd is putting pressure on the Vatican to approve marriages for Priests.
Pro-choice advocates want to have the right to terminate unwanted or life-threatening pregnancies and still be able to receive the "sacraments".
Homosexuals and Lesbians want acceptance of their lifestyles.
On top of all of this, Roman Catholic priests are being convicted as pedophiles and child molesters at great expense to the church and a substantial loss of respect as well.
Another group, which is actually gaining success are those that want divorces granted with the right to remarry. Annulments have increased and the church has relaxed its qualifications for annuling marriages to such a degree that any couple that wants out of a marriage can get it declared invalid.
"My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips", (Psa 89:34)
And they are still separated from the eastern church besides many more schisms within it's own.
Yeah, this would be a lengthy discussion for another thread. I could write a book on it. When I became a Christian I was like a Jew that found Christ. Ostracized. Like I had died and did not exist anymore. My mother's statement (she owns her own Catholic bookstore) was, "Rick, we are so glad that you are off drugs and don't drink anymore, but did you have to leave the Catholic Church?"
It's an amazing journey. It took years but today my mother and I speak, although she never really recognizes my wife or kids since they are non-Catholic. It is her manipulative way to put pressure on me to come back to Rome. Ain't working! Catholics believe when you are baptised that you have an indelible mark on your soul of being a Catholic that will always be there. Call it a spiritual tattoo that you can't remove.
Home sweet Rome? No!
Far from Rome, near to God. :thumb:
Take care,
Rick
You too!
TheForgiven
10-17-2011, 02:52 PM
Hello Rick.
With regards to the Catholic Church, I used to be part of the same Protestant ban wagon that constantly looked for faults against the Catholic Church. Be keep in mind that the Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church has existed since the beginning. Sure they've made a lot of changes along the way. But if you are not aware, the Protestant Churches came from the RCC. And look at how many Protestant Churches we have now since the split. There are more "isms" in the Protestant Churches than there are in the RCC or the Greek Orthodox Church. Neither are perfect, but rest assured that Protestants have become a huge gathering of undisciplined Christians. Every time someone gets angry about something, such as a particular pet-pee doctrine, they branch off and start their own Church. In my town, we call this the Bible belt. Why? Because there are literally hundreds of different Denominations in a single town of about 30,000 people. :lol: Which one is correct?
Furthermore, I believe that Protestants (despite my being raised a Protestant) do not reflect any aspect of the early Church. There's far too much talking in the Protestant Churches. What I mean by talking is preaching. Preachers love to stand behind a pulpit and talk....and talk....and talk. Those that are organized speakers are usually pretty boring. Those who preach from the hip tend to be more exciting, but often without a solid point. And most importantly, those who wish to sit in a pew a listen to a good sermon, are guilty of merely wanting to hear a good song on the radio. It's entertaining to listen to a good sermon, or sing gospel praises, and there's not much wrong with that. But when you walk out the door, it's as though the song you just heard was nothing more than entertainment.
Traditional Church practices in the first century did not involve 45 minute lectures or sermons. Most of their services are mimicked in the Greek Orthodox Church; lost of prayer, chanting, teaching, and learning. I visited a Greek Orthodox Church a few years ago, and I was stunned. I fell in love. Of course that's the reason why I never returned; I knew that me falling in love with the service did not necessarily make it right. So much chanting, singing, and praying. And when they chant, they are chanting portions of scripture from the Old and the New Testament. The traditional Protestant services are geared for winning people over based on which Church as the best musical entertainment, and which preacher gives the most exciting sermon. But these are the wrong reasons to worship. To my, the Greek Orthodox Church has the most sincere style of worship; they worship as though Jesus were actually standing right there in front of them. Protestants...well, that's an entirely different story. Yea there are many Protestants who lift up there hands, and sing Alleluia! But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about actually bowing down on their knees, chanting, meditating, and communion. The Early Church practiced communion every time they gathered. Most Protestants only practice communion once a year, which is not enough if you ask me.
At any rate, don't put so much negative energy against the RCC my friend, for the Protestants have more than their fair share of hypocrisy.
God bless.
Joe
heb13-13
10-17-2011, 03:39 PM
Hello Rick.
With regards to the Catholic Church, I used to be part of the same Protestant ban wagon that constantly looked for faults against the Catholic Church.
I don't know what band wagon you think I am on, but I can assure you it is not the same as the one you were on. How would you know anyway?
Be keep in mind that the Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church has existed since the beginning.
That is not true. The false church has existed from the beginning and morphed into the RCC and many other kinds of "churches."
The false church is the church that will not regard Jesus Christ as their LIVING HEAD!
Sure they've made a lot of changes along the way. But if you are not aware, the Protestant Churches came from the RCC.
I am very aware of that.
And look at how many Protestant Churches we have now since the split. There are more "isms" in the Protestant Churches than there are in the RCC or the Greek Orthodox Church. Neither are perfect, but rest assured that Protestants have become a huge gathering of undisciplined Christians.
Yes, I know. I don't favor either one. They both are engaged in hatred and division and worse, usurpation of the Headship of Jesus Christ.
Every time someone gets angry about something, such as a particular pet-pee doctrine, they branch off and start their own Church.
A lot of it is about gain, too. It pays well to have your own church.
In my town, we call this the Bible belt. Why? Because there are literally hundreds of different Denominations in a single town of about 30,000 people. :lol: Which one is correct?
Furthermore, I believe that Protestants (despite my being raised a Protestant) do not reflect any aspect of the early Church.
I would agree.
There's far too much talking in the Protestant Churches. What I mean by talking is preaching. Preachers love to stand behind a pulpit and talk....and talk....and talk.
Yep, lecture the masses. I know what you mean.
Those that are organized speakers are usually pretty boring. Those who preach from the hip tend to be more exciting, but often without a solid point. And most importantly, those who wish to sit in a pew a listen to a good sermon, are guilty of merely wanting to hear a good song on the radio. It's entertaining to listen to a good sermon, or sing gospel praises, and there's not much wrong with that. But when you walk out the door, it's as though the song you just heard was nothing more than entertainment.
Yep, nothing like fellowshipping with the back of someone's head for an hour or two. Just makes me want to leap out of bed on Sunday.
Traditional Church practices in the first century did not involve 45 minute lectures or sermons. Most of their services are mimicked in the Greek Orthodox Church; lost of prayer, chanting, teaching, and learning. I visited a Greek Orthodox Church a few years ago, and I was stunned. I fell in love. Of course that's the reason why I never returned; I knew that me falling in love with the service did not necessarily make it right. So much chanting, singing, and praying. And when they chant, they are chanting portions of scripture from the Old and the New Testament.
If you think that is what the early church was all about, more power to you.
What you liked was the reverence and seriousness and the feeling of holiness which contrasts quite a bit with the goofiness in today's churches. That is why many of the people from the Jesus People era of the 60s and 70s have actually moved over to the Greek Orthodox church. It's not just you that fell in love with it and out of love with Charismatic goofiness.
The traditional Protestant services are geared for winning people over based on which Church as the best musical entertainment, and which preacher gives the most exciting sermon.
Many are geared towards increasing their numbers, which increases the tithes which brings in more money for the MLM, of course all the time "doing God's work."
But these are the wrong reasons to worship. To my, the Greek Orthodox Church has the most sincere style of worship; they worship as though Jesus were actually standing right there in front of them. Protestants...well, that's an entirely different story. Yea there are many Protestants who lift up there hands, and sing Alleluia! But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about actually bowing down on their knees, chanting, meditating, and communion.
I get it. And that is exactly why many have left the craziness and looked from something more serious. But tell me, did you stay long enough to have relationship with any of these people. Did you get the sense that they knew each other, or just like the Catholics and Protestants, just show up on Sunday, get your ticket punched and go home? You see, there is no such thing as going to church, but there is a such thing as "being the church." I am not interested in going to church regardless how serious the people are, or how great the worship is if the focus is not Jesus Christ. And if Jesus Christ is not the focus, He won't be there, either! All those great things you mentioned can become an idol and if people are talking more about the worship, or the chanting or the meditating rather than Jesus Christ, then those things have probably become an idol. I don't look for the people of God based on what kinds of things (like you mentioned) that they have.
The Early Church practiced communion every time they gathered.
So do we. But it can become an idol, too.
Most Protestants only practice communion once a year, which is not enough if you ask me.
Well, it's not really about what you do or don't do is it?
These are the people that Jesus enjoys being with and they can be doing all the things you mentioned wrong.
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. (Psa 34:18)
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Psa 51:17
These are the things I look for not worship teams, bands, chanting, meditating, etc, etc.
At any rate, don't put so much negative energy against the RCC my friend, for the Protestants have more than their fair share of hypocrisy.
Oh man, you don't know me Joe. I am being very, very mild.
But thanks for being concerned about me. I know what you mean. There are people that all they do is bash and they have nothing uplifting and encouraging to say. I am sure you know about the 22 "one anothers" in the NT. That's what we should be about. But, this is a forum not a church where ideas are discussed. So, you have to read everything with "a grain of salt."
But I do have my eyes wide open, Joe. I know that the Protestants broke away spiritually in some things (Just shall live by faith), but not structurally. They still have the hierarchical structure of clergy/laity. Which is a Nicolaitan spirit and Jesus said twice that He hated the Nicolaitans. Why? Because they usurp His authority and relationship directly with His sheep. There is no mediator between God and man except Jesus Christ. There are pews, lecterns, stained glass windows, Lectures from the Lectern, programs ad nauseum to keep the sheep busy thinking they are getting their money's (tithe) worth. Because, after all, the Clergy stand or fall according to those paying their bills.
I can be and am equally hard on the Protestant schisms and all the hirelings. Why start a church when the Church and it's Head already exist? Just gather unto Him as Brethren, and let the Holy Spirit orchestrate the meetings. It is a most amazing and blessed thing to allow Jesus Christ to be the Host and not just the Guest of Honor. In truth, most churches don't even invite Him as the Guest of Honor. Everyone always wants a physical, tangible leader (Israel and Saul). That's what we do. We are lazy spiritually and want to be spoon fed our whole lives. It is much to HARD to live by faith, so we need to live by sight.
Our meetings are "open" meetings and anyone down to a five year old can bring forth out of their heart whatever they want. Jesus is about freedom, brother. Jesus sat down and had conversations with His followers. He took questions. He did not scold anyone for interrupting His 3-point sermon. Jesus Christ, the same, yesterday, today and forever.
Not acting as "benefactors", but really, deep down wanting to lord over our brethren so we can make a living. If you want to make a living, get a job and then learn to be a brother like the rest of the brothers that work. Being a mature brother in Christ is not a means to making a living. Oh yes, Joe, I have equal disdain for both religious structures, Catholic and Protestant. One thing I have learned is that you cannot change the system. Better to be like David and flee from Saul.
With that said, there are godly men in the system, just like there are godly men that stayed with Saul. But as they began to see Saul's kingdom crumble, they left. And that is what is happening today. People are leaving Saul (Flesh, religion).
After Samuel finished telling the people of Israel that they have rejected God, this took place.
And Saul also went home to Gibeah; and there went with him a band of men, whose hearts God had touched. 1Sa 10:26
So, I have disdain for the religious structure and the false prophets and shepherds, yet realize the sheep are being taken advantage of and that there are men of God still with "Saul."
God's in charge Joe, not me. I'm just happy to have a part and I just want to do my part, my little part in His Body.
The Lord bless you too,
Rick
God bless.
Joe
The logistics of moving a 200,000,000 man army proves that that passage can not be taken literally.
Do you know that in WW2, more than 100 million military personells were mobilized? And that was excluding civilians supports? Therefore the logistics of moving a 200,000,000 man army is not an impossibility:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_world_war_2_soldiers_were_there
Excerpt:
In WW2 over 100 million military personnel were mobilised with even more serving and over 24,000,000 giving their lives. The civilian casualty's are far greater mounting up at over 49,000,000. This makes it the deadliest war in history killing up to 4% of the total human population!
Furthermore, it seems the 200 millions man army were already prepared and mobilized more than a year beforehand that killed a third of mankind (currently more than 2 billions):
Revelation 9:13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone.
The interesting thing in this passage is the breastplate of fiery red, hyacinth blue and sulphur yellow. And we also know that the army that crossed over the dried river Euphrates are probably from Gog and Magog (?Russia and ?China and ?Mongolia, whose combine forces could easily reach 200 million man army). The flags of Russia and China and Mongolia seems to have all these colors. BTW the number of the man army that crossed over the dried Euphrates may not be that huge number of 200 million man army as it wasn't stated in Revelation 16:
12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and[f] of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty....................
16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.[g]
Interesting also to note that breastplates in the bible were "clothes" worned by priests and people of high status:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breastplate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_breastplate
Flags of Russia, China and Mongolia respectively:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4138/4900974426_9223f1750d.jpg
May God Blessed us. Amen :pray:
heb13-13
10-17-2011, 04:13 PM
Do you know that in WW2, more than 100 million military personells were mobilized? And that was excluding civilians supports? Therefore the logistics of moving a 200,000,000 man army is not an impossibility:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_world_war_2_soldiers_were_there
Excerpt:
Furthermore, it seems the 200 millions man army were already prepared and mobilized more than a year beforehand that killed a third of mankind (currently more than 2 billions):
Ok CWH,
For the sake of argument, let's say you are right about the 200million strong.
But then we have to ask ourselves how do they get to th Euphrates? And we have to assume that the river bed is pretty much like a highway. Nice and smooth and solid to drive vehicles on.
I see that the Euphrates goes up to Turkey and above Turkey, is Russia. That is still very far from China. And the terrain from the northern most point of the Euphrates to China is extremely rugged.
It sure is interesting to look at,
Blessings to you,
Rick
May God Blessed us. Amen :pray:
TheForgiven
10-17-2011, 08:30 PM
I'm beginning to like our newcomer here. Interesting post Rick. Do you reside in the states? Or are you overseas? I hope you don't mind me asking.
Also, it would be easier for me in reading your replies if you not include your replies in a quote. I had a difficult time trying to discern what I wrote, and what your replies were. I figured it out of course, but some of the "black" writing was not mine. :lol:
You made a comment about the Roman Catholic Church when I said it was the original Church, and I'd like to reply to that, but this isn't the Thread to do so. So I'm going to start a topic on another Thread, but not in the eschatology forum. What I will say is in the beginning New Testament Church era, there was only one Church and it was called, "One Holy Catholic Church". These consisted primarily of Eastern and Western, but there were different Churches all over. And of course, none of them agreed as is seen in a few of their writings. After the Apostles left, some of the Early Church Fathers bickered over different things. Some were Jewish sympathizer's, while others recognized that the need for the Israeli based Tribal race had been abolished. OK, I drifting here. So the Church was still recognized as Catholic, which simply means "Universal" for all races.
Somewhere along the line, the Church of Rome decided to enact a leader like Peter, who was one of the leaders of the Church in Jerusalem. Because of wide spread persecution in later centuries by the Muslims, the Christians wanted someone to turn to. And thus the creation of the Pope. The Greeks of course rejected this notion, and in the 10th century, they the Church split, with one side being called Roman Catholic and the other side Greek Orthodox Church. In the 14th century, the rise of the Heuganauts (Protestants) came about, thus creating even more confusion. Since the 10th century, the Greeks continue to reject any idea of a Pope. There have been good Popes and there have been bad Popes. But in my opinion, the Pope is not necessarily a bad thing. At the same time, I see no need for one. One thing I will say though. The Protestants have become so divided, so loud mouthed, and so undisciplined, that perhaps they too need a Protestant leader to get them back into check. There's too many doctrines floating around the Protestant world, and it's becoming quite intolerable. Quite frankly, some of them need to stop pointing their dirty eye-clogging fingers at the others; especially those of the 7th Day Adventist. I have never in my life met such a rude group of so-called Christians. They are the most naive, narrow minded, and big-headed group I've ever met. Everybody is going to hell if you don't believe and worship as they do.
As for me, I was raised Southern Baptist. :lol: But the only thing good about Southern Baptists are their cook-outs. :lol: Doctrine is fair, but far from perfect. Too much Calvinist influence with the false teaching of eternal security. And of course their rejection of Baptism. Other than that, they sure cook up a good meal.
OK, sorry for drifting folks. Just getting to know Rick a little better.
Now about the 200,000,000 man army. I've already informed Cheow that we don't ride horses anymore, nor do we fight with spears, and arrows. And the Euphrates river isn't going to stop anyone from invading Israel. :lol: We've got missiles, planes, jeeps, hummers, boats, you name it. A little river would not stop anyone from invading Israel...which is quite the distance from the Euphrates River I might add. So his reasoning that the Revelation has not been fulfilled based on the literal interpretation of the ER drying up is not wise. Christ expects His children to listen to what the Spirit is saying in these visions, and NOT what the literal word is saying.
Joe
[QUOTE=TheForgiven;35421]I'm beginning to like our newcomer here. Interesting post Rick. Do you reside in the states? Or are you overseas? I hope you don't mind me asking.
How about beginning to like me and Henry, your favorite futurists? :D
Now about the 200,000,000 man army. I've already informed Cheow that we don't ride horses anymore, nor do we fight with spears, and arrows. And the Euphrates river isn't going to stop anyone from invading Israel. :lol: We've got missiles, planes, jeeps, hummers, boats, you name it. A little river would not stop anyone from invading Israel...which is quite the distance from the Euphrates River I might add. So his reasoning that the Revelation has not been fulfilled based on the literal interpretation of the ER drying up is not wise. Christ expects His children to listen to what the Spirit is saying in these visions, and NOT what the literal word is saying.
The horses in those verses are not literal. If I say computers are the workhorses of today, am I implying computers are work horses? Did God ride on horses?
In WW2, they fought over the harsh Sahara deserts, the impassable jungles and swamps, the snowfields of Ukraine and Norway, is anything so difficult for humans to mobilize their forces?
The drying up of the Euphrates have many strategic purposes such as creating a big dry area to move large number of troops and logistics, withholding water supply to many parts of the Middle East thus causing drought including Israel, diverting water supply away from the enemy for their own forces, create flash floods to drown the enemy, poison the waters of the Euphrates and divert them to the enemy etc.
May God's Grace, Mercy and Love be with everyone of you. Amen.:pray:
Richard Amiel McGough
10-17-2011, 10:01 PM
The logistics of moving a 200,000,000 man army proves that that passage can not be taken literally.
Do you know that in WW2, more than 100 million military personells were mobilized? And that was excluding civilians supports? Therefore the logistics of moving a 200,000,000 man army is not an impossibility:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_world_war_2_soldiers_were_there
Excerpt:
Furthermore, it seems the 200 millions man army were already prepared and mobilized more than a year beforehand that killed a third of mankind (currently more than 2 billions):
Revelation 9:13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, 'Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.' 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone.
That's interesting, but it's not what is being described in Revelation 9. In WWII, the "military personal" were from all the different countries that were fighting each other. So the soldiers in France had to be mobilized to fight the Germans who were invading. The French soldiers were not part of a 200 million man army riding horses towards another land. That's just plain nuts. And this shows the absurdiity of the so-called "literal" interpetation. It's not literal at all! You don't really expect an army of 200 million men on horseback, do you?
All the best.
heb13-13
10-18-2011, 05:49 AM
I'm beginning to like our newcomer here. Interesting post Rick. Do you reside in the states? Or are you overseas? I hope you don't mind me asking.
Hey Joe,
Sorry about my editing. You guys are quite an eclectic lot yourself.
Yes, I reside in the states. Texas to be exact. Moved to Tennessee for 18 months after 10 years in Connecticut, then got transferred by my company to Oklahoma. Nine years in OK and then accepted a job in Texas. Raised in a military family. Longest stints were 5 years in Germany, 5 years in Kansas and 6 years in the SF Bay Area and 2 years in Northern VA. I was in the Navy myself and will share with you how I became a Christian.
Also, it would be easier for me in reading your replies if you not include your replies in a quote. I had a difficult time trying to discern what I wrote, and what your replies were. I figured it out of course, but some of the "black" writing was not mine. :lol:
You made a comment about the Roman Catholic Church when I said it was the original Church, and I'd like to reply to that, but this isn't the Thread to do so. So I'm going to start a topic on another Thread, but not in the eschatology forum. What I will say is in the beginning New Testament Church era, there was only one Church and it was called, "One Holy Catholic Church". These consisted primarily of Eastern and Western, but there were different Churches all over. And of course, none of them agreed as is seen in a few of their writings. After the Apostles left, some of the Early Church Fathers bickered over different things. Some were Jewish sympathizer's, while others recognized that the need for the Israeli based Tribal race had been abolished. OK, I drifting here. So the Church was still recognized as Catholic, which simply means "Universal" for all races.
Yep, I know Catholic means "Universal." A lot of people don't know that.
Somewhere along the line, the Church of Rome decided to enact a leader like Peter, who was one of the leaders of the Church in Jerusalem. Because of wide spread persecution in later centuries by the Muslims, the Christians wanted someone to turn to. And thus the creation of the Pope.
It wasn't quite that simple, but I know where you're coming from.
The Greeks of course rejected this notion, and in the 10th century, they the Church split, with one side being called Roman Catholic and the other side Greek Orthodox Church. In the 14th century, the rise of the Heuganauts (Protestants) came about, thus creating even more confusion. Since the 10th century, the Greeks continue to reject any idea of a Pope. There have been good Popes and there have been bad Popes. But in my opinion, the Pope is not necessarily a bad thing.
What? :eek: Any man wearing a dress, red slippers and wanting people to kiss his ring is a bad thing! :lol: (A little levity Joe).
At the same time, I see no need for one. One thing I will say though. The Protestants have become so divided, so loud mouthed, and so undisciplined, that perhaps they too need a Protestant leader to get them back into check.
Don't worry about them. They are all coming back to Rome. The Anglican Church in England which was at great odds with Rome has just about done an about face. There was a lot of animosity when John Henry Newman led about 100 Anglican Bishops into Rome in the 1900s. He recently was canonized when the Pope came back to England. Actually canonized in England!! That was a ceremony of victory for Rome. Plus, England has never welcomed a Pope back with the pomp and ceremony that this one came back with. The Queen of England basically abdicated her throne by allowing a state reception of the Pope.
During the Reformation Rome started the Counter Reformation and it has never stopped. It has morphed through the years and the Jesuit arm of Rome has their tentacles into every aspect of religious life not only in their denomination but others and even in Protestant Bible Colleges and Churches. They are extremely clever and like the Chinese they are willing to wait centuries to achieve their objectives. Remember, the Pope believes he has both temporal and spiritual authority on earth and that all Kings, Presidents, Dictators, and religious leaders will eventually bow to him.
Even the Office of the Inquisition was never abolished. In 1542 Pope Paul III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Paul_III) established the Congregation of the Holy Office of the Inquisition as a permanent congregation staffed with cardinals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_(Catholicism)) and other officials. It had the tasks of maintaining and defending the integrity of the faith and of examining and proscribing errors and false doctrines. One of the most famous cases tried by the Roman Inquisition involved Galileo Galilei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei) in 1633.
In 1908 the name of the Congregation became "The Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office", which in 1965 further changed to "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregation_for_the_Doctrine_of_the_Faith)", as retained to the present day.
So, the Congregation of the Holy Office of the Inquisition was never actually abolished, just went through a couple of name changes. The present Pope was head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith before being picked as the new Papa.
Anyway, back to my point. Many protestants are heading back to Rome. Here is a good article to read.
The Catholics Exploitation of Pentecostalism (http://www.bereanbeacon.org/articles/sorted/01_On_Catholicism/The_Papacys_Exploitation_of_Pentecostalism.pdf)
The Counter-Reformation continues and is being very successful. There was Vatican II, then the Ecumenical Movement which continues and even the Emerging Church Movement further blurrs the lines between Protestants and Catholics. There will be a day when you will be considered strange if you are a Christian and not in the Holy Roman Catholic Church.
There's too many doctrines floating around the Protestant world, and it's becoming quite intolerable. Quite frankly, some of them need to stop pointing their dirty eye-clogging fingers at the others; especially those of the 7th Day Adventist. I have never in my life met such a rude group of so-called Christians. They are the most naive, narrow minded, and big-headed group I've ever met. Everybody is going to hell if you don't believe and worship as they do.
I agree. They are really insecure and fearful. The staunch Protestants are fearful because the Catholic Church is having so much success. Doesn't matter to me anymore what the religious world does. We really don't have anything to fear, do we? The Gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church of Jesus Christ. (and I don't mean a 501(c)3 organization)
As for me, I was raised Southern Baptist. :lol:
Sorry to hear that. :winking0071: Actually, believe it or not I have some good friends that are Baptists and Calvinists.
But the only thing good about Southern Baptists are their cook-outs. :lol:
Love the barbecue!!
Doctrine is fair, but far from perfect. Too much Calvinist influence with the false teaching of eternal security.
Eternal security is a recipe for spiritual slumber and self-righteousness. It is a false security. There is no teaching of walking in righteousness. See the series on "Can You Be Righteous (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2405&page=3)", (halfway down the page). Their TULIP philosophy actually messes with their minds, big time. I have met so many Calvinists that are just screwed up in their beliefs constantly having spiritual identity crises. Calvin adored Augustine and actually went to the same Catholic University as Ignatius Loyola. There was an influence of Rome in his life. Calvinists hate it when I tell them he was a Catholic "plant." And be sure not to mention Michael Servetus to them.
But, why do you need a systematic theology to be a Christian? Why do you need a system? Have you seen the Catholic Catechism? And then you have the "Institutes of Christian Religion", by John Calvin. You also have Witness Lee's systematic theology and the only Bible he allows in his sect is the one that has HIS annotations in it. Everyone wants to systematize the Word of God. Then there is Scofield and on and on it goes. I guess people feel better when their denomination has a systematic theology that no one can understand and it is thicker than the IRS manual.
Doctrines and commandments of men nullify the Word of God. What did Satan say to Eve? "Let me tell you what God really means."
"For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward" 2Co 1:12
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" 2Co 11:3
And of course their rejection of Baptism.
They can tell you where everything they do today, began in the 1st century, even infant baptism. Of course they have never re-written history books, banned books or destroyed historical books so they must be right.
Other than that, they sure cook up a good meal.
They can sure eat!!
OK, sorry for drifting folks. Just getting to know Rick a little better.
Now about the 200,000,000 man army. I've already informed Cheow that we don't ride horses anymore, nor do we fight with spears, and arrows. And the Euphrates river isn't going to stop anyone from invading Israel. :lol: We've got missiles, planes, jeeps, hummers, boats, you name it. A little river would not stop anyone from invading Israel...which is quite the distance from the Euphrates River I might add. So his reasoning that the Revelation has not been fulfilled based on the literal interpretation of the ER drying up is not wise. Christ expects His children to listen to what the Spirit is saying in these visions, and NOT what the literal word is saying.
Back to you, Joe.
Rick
Joe
Silence
10-18-2011, 06:43 AM
Just a few observations -
Whether the "army" is meant to be literal or not it seems that the number associated with this army is important.
16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.
If this army is literal, then maybe John adds that he heard the number of them to assure the readers that he is not exaggerating. If it is not literal, there is something about the number 200 million that must be important.
I don't know Greek, so I am not sure if the text says that the army is made up of 200 million men on horseback, or if there are some men on horseback leading an army of 200 million. Since there are 4 angels being released, perhaps they are the ones riding horses? Hearkens back to the 4 horsemen found earlier on in the book.
The text also doesn't say that the army does any destroying. That is done by the fire, smoke and brimstone. The breastplates seem to be associated with these three plagues by the use of the words translated as "red" and "yellow" in some versions. The KJV doesn't translate them as colors, but as "fire" and "brimstone". The third color, Jacinth, could be associated with smoke, since according to many, it denotes a dark blue shade, bordering on black, which is a common hue for smoke.
The mention of 1/3 of mankind reminds me of the third part of the angels that rebelled. It is also the same ratio of the Godhead that died to redeem mankind.
No matter how you look at this passage, literally or figuratively, it is hard to definitely pin down what it is saying.
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