Isaiah 4/Revelation 3

[Screaming Eagle]

Isa 4:1 ¶ And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach. {let...: Heb. let thy name be called upon us} {to take...: or, take thou away} (KJV)
Isa 4:2 ¶ In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. {beautiful...: Heb. beauty and glory} {them...: Heb. the escaping} (KJV)
Isa 4:3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem: {among...: or, to life} (KJV)
Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning. (KJV)
Isa 4:5 And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence. {upon all: or, above all} {defence: Heb. covering} (KJV)
Isa 4:6 And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain. (KJV)

I've come to the understanding that these passages are yet future events that have not been completely fulfilled in scripture or in history. The 7 'women' in v 1 correlate perfectly with the 7 churches in Rev 3. It describes people who only want to be 'called by My name' and 'have their reproach taken away' yet do not want to completely submit to Jesus Christ personally for all that He desires.
Verse 2 describes something much more glorious (consider the 'in THAT day' reference) than anything the church has ever seen yet and makes reference to 'those that are escaped' of Israel.
Verse 3 refers to 'those that are left in Zion' while v4 clearly describes washing away the filth of Zion by a 'spirit of judgment and a spirit of burning'.
Verse 5 indicates a cloud of shekinah Glory that will indeed return (certainly the return of Christ in His Glory with Him personally as the refuge). This is a covering that has yet to manifest as the 'true' church of God is revealed for all to see. It's the consummation of the wedding and followed by a 'new song' in the very next chapter of Isaiah.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I've come to the understanding that these passages are yet future events that have not been completely fulfilled in scripture or in history. The 7 'women' in v 1 correlate perfectly with the 7 churches in Rev 3. It describes people who only want to be 'called by My name' and 'have their reproach taken away' yet do not want to completely submit to Jesus Christ personally for all that He desires.

Great insight! :thumb:

I had not connected the seven women with the seven churches. And the "called by My name" link is very strong.

Given this profound connection, how is it that you think these passages are still future? That doesn't make sense because we all know that the 7 churches of Revelation existed in the first century. Indeed, the letter was written to them!



Verse 2 describes something much more glorious (consider the 'in THAT day' reference) than anything the church has ever seen yet and makes reference to 'those that are escaped' of Israel.
Verse 3 refers to 'those that are left in Zion' while v4 clearly describes washing away the filth of Zion by a 'spirit of judgment and a spirit of burning'.

That sounds like a description of the Church, the pure Bride washed in the blood of Christ. This fits exactly with the text which states that "washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion." The Gospel meaning of these passages are clear as day to me. It makes no sense at all to invent a future application to literal national Israel. That misses the Gospel altogether.



Verse 5 indicates a cloud of shekinah Glory that will indeed return (certainly the return of Christ in His Glory with Him personally as the refuge). This is a covering that has yet to manifest as the 'true' church of God is revealed for all to see. It's the consummation of the wedding and followed by a 'new song' in the very next chapter of Isaiah.
Why would you think that the glory is going to return to national Israel? Where does the Bible speak of that? Do you not understand that Christians are co-heirs with Christ and will be glorified with him? National Israel is not in the picture at all.

Richard

[Screaming Eagle]

Richard,
I do indeed know that we are co-heirs with Christ. I see the 7 churches as more than literal congregations (although they were that) and a prophetic picture of the 'church' over ages (including now). His word is a living word. How could in not be speaking to us now?
I know you don't understand that His return will yet be again to completely redeem at least part of national Israel. I"m not going to bother trying to convince you of that. I've made other posts pointing to Daniel 12 and Jer 30 in the context of Ma 24 (as well as other scriptures). He has not forgotten natural Israel. He is looking for a church that will be a final witness to natural Israel and willing to give their lives (actually psuche souls) to cover them in the face of untold evil. It's part of the 'overcomer' church that is addressed in Rev 3. I know you don't see that '8th' church but the words are clear. It's His true bride dressed and clothed only in Him for His purposes.
You haven't given me much detail to make me think this was all accomplished (in detail) previously in history. That can only mean it's 'yet' to come.

The Spirit of judgment and of burning is a distinct picture of Elijah. Jesus Himself (after John the Baptist) said he is to come and restore all things.

Mt 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. (KJV)
Mt 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. (KJV)

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard,
I do indeed know that we are co-heirs with Christ. I see the 7 churches as more than literal congregations (although they were that) and a prophetic picture of the 'church' over ages (including now). His word is a living word. How could in not be speaking to us now?

Hey Paul,

I understand the idea of the 7 churches representing the entire history of the church. Did you read the post where I explained that to you? But the fact that this "could be" true does not make it true, and speculations like that are certainly not supposed to be used in the foundation of our understanding of eschatology. Have you considered the possibility that your view could be incorrect? Imagine, for example, that we continue for another thousand years without any significant "end times" events coming to pass. Your ideas would then be proven false, just like the "end times" predictions of every person that has come before you. Do you deny this as even possible? Do you deny that you could be wrong in your interpretation? If so, upon what do you found such great certainty?



I know you don't understand that His return will yet be again to completely redeem at least part of national Israel. I"m not going to bother trying to convince you of that. I've made other posts pointing to Daniel 12 and Jer 30 in the context of Ma 24 (as well as other scriptures). He has not forgotten natural Israel.

Why would you not try to convince me? It's really very easy to convince me of anything that is clearly supported by two or three unambiguous Scriptures, especially if they cohere with the "Big Picture" of the rest of Scripture and are interpreted in a way that makes sense with the context in which they are found.

As I'm sure you'll notice, I have answered your post where you put forth your interpretation of Dan 12 and Mat 24. And on that note, I must repeat the most important of questions: Given that Christ opened the Olivet Discourse by talking about the destruction of the first century temple, how does 70 AD fit into your understanding of prophecy?



He is looking for a church that will be a final witness to natural Israel and willing to give their lives (actually psuche souls) to cover them in the face of untold evil. It's part of the 'overcomer' church that is addressed in Rev 3. I know you don't see that '8th' church but the words are clear. It's His true bride dressed and clothed only in Him for His purposes.
You haven't given me much detail to make me think this was all accomplished (in detail) previously in history. That can only mean it's 'yet' to come.

That all sounds like speculation to me.



The Spirit of judgment and of burning is a distinct picture of Elijah. Jesus Himself (after John the Baptist) said he is to come and restore all things.

Mt 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. (KJV)
Mt 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. (KJV)
Why did you quote that verse? It confirms my view because it says that the prophecy of Elijah was already fulfilled in the first century.

As for the "all things" - that is a very common futurist misconception. The "all things" refers to the prophecy about him:
Malachi 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
The exact letter-for-letter Greek word used in the LXX version of this prophecy is used also in Matt 17:12 which declares the prophecy fulfilled. Christ said that John the Baptist had completely fulfilled his mission as prophesied. He was sent to "restore" the hearts of the fathers to the children. He "restored" all the things that he was sent to restore.

Richard

[Screaming Eagle]

Richard, that interpretation is only one way of understanding what 'restore' means. He's actually saying 'Elijah came (as John the Baptist) and is coming but they didn't see it.

Ac 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (KJV)

This is where the work is finished and it agrees with the very first question they asked of Him after having been 'visited' (in and out) for 40 days before Pentecost/Shavuot. It's clear to me that He had been talking to them of the restoration of Israel (at least in part) simply because of the nature of their question. This is where he elucidates that after Jesus's response about receiving power.

That's the only time that word for 'restitution' (restore again) is used in Greek. The passages in Acts (1:11) also mention Christ returning the same way He left and them seeing it. That hasn't happened either unless it happened in secret and we all missed it and were born too late.

I apologize for my comment about not being able to convince you. You've been fair albeit from a very different perspective.

Ma 24 also clearly points back to the essetial understanding of Daniel (chap 12 in particular) as part of His answer. Michael is about to stand up. And the result is national salvation in accord with Jer 30:7. It's the troubling that's not going to be fun.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hey there my friend! :yo:

I'm really enjoying this study.


Richard, that interpretation is only one way of understanding what 'restore' means. He's actually saying 'Elijah came (as John the Baptist) and is coming but they didn't see it.

I'm not sure what you are getting at by focusing on the "is coming." Are you suggesting that there is going to be a second fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy in the future?



Ac 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (KJV)

This is where the work is finished and it agrees with the very first question they asked of Him after having been 'visited' (in and out) for 40 days before Pentecost/Shavuot. It's clear to me that He had been talking to them of the restoration of Israel (at least in part) simply because of the nature of their question. This is where he elucidates that after Jesus's response about receiving power.

We can not establish our doctrines on speculations about why the disciples asked that question. If that is the best support for futurism, then futurism has no real foundation in Scripture.

The Preterist view is established with great certainty upon a mountain of mutually confirming verses interpreted in accordance with the normal use of language and the context in which they are found. We can not refute this kind of rock solid evidence with speculations about questions asked by the disciples when they were still in ignorance about God's plan to evangelize the Gentiles.



That's the only time that word for 'restitution' (restore again) is used in Greek. The passages in Acts (1:11) also mention Christ returning the same way He left and them seeing it. That hasn't happened either unless it happened in secret and we all missed it and were born too late.

I grant that Acts 1:11 lends itself to a simplistic literal interpretation. But Scripture can not contradict itself, and that view of Acts 1:11 makes no sense in light of the sure conclusions derived from many mutually confirming verses in the rest of the Bible. This is the fundamental error of futurism. It has no "Big Picture" understanding of the integrated prophetic complex of the entire Bible. In my experience, futurism is a arbitrary mosaic made from the shattered fragments of verses taken out of context. Sure, once in while you can find a verse here or there that clearly seems to demand a futurist interpretation. But those fragments do not fit into the "Big Picture" that is established by the great mountain of mutually confirming verses.

The ultimate proof that futurism is false is extremely easy to see. The NT is saturated with verses that speak about the end coming "soon" for the "time is at hand" and the "judge is at the door" and that "this generation will not pass before all these things are fulfilled." The futurist is absolutely unable to deal with any of these hundreds of verses in a convincing way. Any system of eschatology that can not accept what the Bible plainly states in many mutually confirming verses is obviously false.



I apologize for my comment about not being able to convince you. You've been fair albeit from a very different perspective.

Thanks bro! That warms my heart and encourages me to believe that our conversation will only get better and better.

:anim_32:

Many blessings to you my friend,

Richard

[Screaming Eagle]

Richard,
What I'm getting at is that the 'spirit of Elijah' will indeed come again and burn away the dross from a 'body' that is not yet 'pure'. I'm convinced that it will be on a much larger scale than with John the Baptist although he is a 'type' of this same spirit of Elijah that is described in v4.
With many people (wanting to be called by His name) not believing in healing, in prophetic utterance (His word creating yet this day) or His power, there's a lot of work to be done to bring forth this pure bride (which has already been declared in spirit). Now is the time for her to submit completely to Him and love not their souls to the point of death if that's what's necessary. Could be either 'death to self' or physical death or both. I lean toward the 'both/and' personally. But He will indeed have a Bride that is spotless and pure. It's the fire of Elijah (in spirit) that will do it and that through His saints.
Take a close look at Joel 2 for an accurate detailed description of what I'm talking about.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard,
What I'm getting at is that the 'spirit of Elijah' will indeed come again and burn away the dross from a 'body' that is not yet 'pure'. I'm convinced that it will be on a much larger scale than with John the Baptist although he is a 'type' of this same spirit of Elijah that is described in v4.

Hi Paul,

That's fine - you can believe what you want. Myself, I'll believe what you can show me from Scripture.



With many people (wanting to be called by His name) not believing in healing, in prophetic utterance (His word creating yet this day) or His power, there's a lot of work to be done to bring forth this pure bride (which has already been declared in spirit).

If you would like me to believe in modern "prophetic utterances" then please provide me with three examples of modern "prophetic utterances" that has been proven to be true.



Now is the time for her to submit completely to Him and love not their souls to the point of death if that's what's necessary. Could be either 'death to self' or physical death or both. I lean toward the 'both/and' personally. But He will indeed have a Bride that is spotless and pure. It's the fire of Elijah (in spirit) that will do it and that through His saints.
Take a close look at Joel 2 for an accurate detailed description of what I'm talking about.
Scripture declares that Joel 2 was fulfilled in the first century, beginning at Pentecost:

Acts 2:16 But THIS IS THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
All the best,

Richard

[Screaming Eagle]

These are the scriptures from Joel 2 I was talking about. Do you have some explanation about when these were fulfilled in scripture?

Joe 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. {of many...: Heb. of generation and generation} (KJV)
Joe 2:3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. (KJV)
Joe 2:4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. (KJV)
Joe 2:5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. (KJV)
Joe 2:6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. {blackness: Heb. pot} (KJV)
Joe 2:7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: (KJV
Joe 2:8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. {sword: or, dart} (KJ

[Screaming Eagle]

RAM wrote:
If you would like me to believe in modern "prophetic utterances" then please provide me with three examples of modern "prophetic utterances" that has been proven to be true.

Richard,
It's about faith in Him. He does not change. I'm not asking you to believe me. Indeed, I don't want you to believe me as a person. It would be like believing a dead man.
What I'd like to ask you to do is to simply pray and ask Him to show you. Even if it shakes some of what you've come to understand. Ask Him to prove it to you. I can guarantee you He will do that if you sincerely want to know.
Same thing with healing. He operates based on faith. If we don't believe Him (manifested by depending on 'this world' instead of Him), He will allow you to believe that because His word says something different. If that's not functioning in your life, the problem is not with Him.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

RAM wrote:
If you would like me to believe in modern "prophetic utterances" then please provide me with three examples of modern "prophetic utterances" that has been proven to be true.

Richard,
It's about faith in Him. He does not change. I'm not asking you to believe me. Indeed, I don't want you to believe me as a person. It would be like believing a dead man.
What I'd like to ask you to do is to simply pray and ask Him to show you. Even if it shakes some of what you've come to understand. Ask Him to prove it to you. I can guarantee you He will do that if you sincerely want to know.
Same thing with healing. He operates based on faith. If we don't believe Him (manifested by depending on 'this world' instead of Him), He will allow you to believe that because His word says something different. If that's not functioning in your life, the problem is not with Him.
I think you have misunderstood me. I know with perfect certainty that God can give a "prophetic utterance" and that He can heal people with a single Word from Him. I have no problem with that idea at all. But on the other hand, I also know with perfect certainty that people who have a "prophetic utterance" about the end of the world that is based on a futurist understanding of the Bible are wrong because their "utterance" is contrary to the plain teaching of Scripture. And besides that, they are always wrong - their predictions fail 100 percent of the time.

All the best,

Richard

[Screaming Eagle]

RAM,
I haven't said (and I hope I haven't indicated) one word about the 'end of the world'. It's the end of the church age (fullness of the Gentiles) that is coming fast. And what will follow? The true rule and reign of the Kingdom of God in and through His people. And there is a lot of travailing that must be done to refine His people as One (both Jews and Gentiles) prior to that time.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

RAM,
I haven't said (and I hope I haven't indicated) one word about the 'end of the world'. It's the end of the church age (fullness of the Gentiles) that is coming fast. And what will follow? The true rule and reign of the Kingdom of God in and through His people. And there is a lot of travailing that must be done to refine His people as One (both Jews and Gentiles) prior to that time.
Thanks for the clarification, but my statement remains the same. Predictions about the "end of the church age" and the "coming of the Kingdom of God" are "end time" events in the futurist framework. The Bible says nothing about an "end of the church age." This is another doctrine that you have received from futurists, not the Bible.