Ma 24:21, Da 12:1, Jer 30:7

[Screaming Eagle]

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Ma 24:21

1 'At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever

Jer 30;7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.
8 ‘ For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the LORD of hosts,

‘ That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.
10 ‘ Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,’ says the LORD,

‘ Nor be dismayed, O Israel;
For behold, I will save you from afar,
And your seed from the land of their captivity.
Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet,
And no one shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with you,’ says the LORD, ‘to save you;
Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you,
Yet I will not make a complete end of you.
But I will correct you in justice,
And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’

I want to point out the great similarities in all of these scriptures as referring to 'that day' , 'that time' and how none of these have been completely fulfilled (especially Jeremiah and even more if you consider that whole chapter of Jeremiah.
The passages in Ma 24 are in response to the question 'what will be the sign of your coming AND of the end of the age?'. Since Jesus was there at that time it must be talking about a 'yet future' appearance. Unless you honestly believe (with no scriptural support) that He returned to Jerusalem in 70 AD, it must be an indication of a future time that is yet to occur.
He Himself points to Daniel as an indicator of that time which means that all of what was writen in Daniel could not possibly have been 'done' and finished at His first incarnation. It's His command and direction for us to look to Daniel for the answers. Read AND understand. The result of the passages in Daniel are the complete salvation and redemption of the nation of Israel. Jeremiah says that Israel 'will be saved out of it' (agreement from scripture).
After the abomination has been identified in Dn 9:27, 11:31, and 12:11, it is a short step to show that the 'Man of Sin' of Paul’s ‘little apocalypse’ (2Thes 2:1-8, esp. verse 4 [2Th 2:4]) is the same ‘self exalting’ prince / king described in Dn 11:36-37. Plainly, he is the one who places the abomination of desolation in Dn 9:27; 11:31; 12:11.
It should be noted that not only in the OT, but no less in the NT, the events of the day of the Lord all center on a last conflict over Jerusalem. Jesus (Mt 24:15-31), Paul (2Thes 2:1-8), and John (Rev 11, 16) all make this connection. The return of Jesus ends the final siege of Jerusalem.
These things cannot be explained away has mere history without severing the clear connection in these scriptures.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I want to point out the great similarities in all of these scriptures as referring to 'that day' , 'that time' and how none of these have been completely fulfilled (especially Jeremiah and even more if you consider that whole chapter of Jeremiah.

OK! I'll walk through the verses with you.



The passages in Ma 24 are in response to the question 'what will be the sign of your coming AND of the end of the age?'. Since Jesus was there at that time it must be talking about a 'yet future' appearance. Unless you honestly believe (with no scriptural support) that He returned to Jerusalem in 70 AD, it must be an indication of a future time that is yet to occur.

Why did you leave out the full questions and the true context? Christ told the disciples that the Temple would be destroyed. They knew he was the Messiah and the mighty Son of God, so they put these ideas together. They knew that the appearance of Messiah and the destruction of the Temple were prophesied to happen at the "end of the age." Their questions indicated this understanding:
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Those questions are all about the same event centered on the destruction of the first century Temple. This is the true context in which they were asked.

Also, the disciples did not know that Jesus was "going away" so they were not asking about a "second coming." They were asking about his parousia - the Coming of Messiah in power at the end of the age marked by the destruction of the Temple.



He Himself points to Daniel as an indicator of that time which means that all of what was writen in Daniel could not possibly have been 'done' and finished at His first incarnation. It's His command and direction for us to look to Daniel for the answers. Read AND understand. The result of the passages in Daniel are the complete salvation and redemption of the nation of Israel. Jeremiah says that Israel 'will be saved out of it' (agreement from scripture).

You are absolutely correct that Christ pointed to Daniel. And why? Because Daniel 9 declares that the Messiah would be cut off, and then the Temple destroyed. This is exactly what happened. We have absolute proof from history.

Your assertion that "all of what was writen in Daniel could not possibly have been 'done' and finished at His first incarnation" is mere assertion with no foundation in Scripture. We know with perfect certainty that it was fulfilled because that's what the text states:
Daniel 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
When were the Jews scattered? In 70 AD when the Temple was destroyed! And we know this is what Jesus was talking about because he explicitly spoke of these very things!
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
The Olivet Discourse, Revelation, and the Book of Daniel are perfectly united in their meaning, and all has been confirmed by history. This is the greatest witness of the divine inspiration and truth of Holy Scripture. To tear it apart and put it all in the future destroys God's Witness to the truth of His Word and the fulfillment of His Prophecy which was given so that people would know His Word is True.



After the abomination has been identified in Dn 9:27, 11:31, and 12:11, it is a short step to show that the “Man of Sin” of Paul’s ‘little apocalypse’ (2Thes 2:1-8, esp. verse 4 [2Th 2:4]) is the same ‘self exalting’ prince / king described in Dn 11:36-37. Plainly, he is the one who places the abomination of desolation in Dn 9:27; 11:31; 12:11.

Paul was writing about the man of sin in the literal Temple of God that was still standing at the time he wrote. It is absolutely impossible for his prophecy to be literally fulfilled in the future because the Temple has been destroyed and can never be rebuilt because God will never call another Temple in Jerusalem built by unbelievers who deny Him and His Son "My Holy House."

All the prophecies you cited fit the first century fulfillment.



It should be noted that not only in the OT, but no less in the NT, the events of the day of the Lord all center on a last conflict over Jerusalem. Jesus (Mt 24:15-31), Paul (2Thes 2:1-8), and John (Rev 11, 16) all make this connection. The return of Jesus ends the final siege of Jerusalem.
These things cannot be explained away has mere history without severing the clear connection in these scriptures.
Your point can not be true because the Scriptures you cited were written to first century Christians about things that were fulfilled in the first century. Specifically:

2 Thess 2:1-8 > explained above as referring to the literal first century Temple and no other.

Matt 24:15-31 > Spoken in answer to the questions about the destruction of the first century Temple.

Rev 11 > Concerns the trampling of the first century Temple by the Gentiles just like Luke 21:24. (mutual witnesses here)

Rev 16 > Speaks of the division of Jerusalem into three factions that were instrumental in its destruction (see Josephus).

Finally, here is an extremely important question: Given that Christ opened the Olivet Discourse by talking about the destruction of the first century temple, how does 70 AD fit into your understanding of prophecy?

Great chatting! Thanks for presenting your views on these passages.

Richard