Is Physical Death the Penalty for Sin?

[Edward Goodie]

Think carefully...

If the wages of sin is PHYSICAL death (Romans 6:23), and
if Jesus paid our penalty of sin for us, and
if Jesus was the substitutionary atonement, and
if Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us, and
if through belief in Him the curse of sin is removed, and
if Jesus said in John 11:26 "...whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die..."

Then either no one has ever truly believe in the Lord Jesus Christ

OR

We still have to pay the penalty for sin!

Think about it...

[joel]

"If the wages of sin is PHYSICAL death...."

Does that mean that it is like "pay"? If you sin......you shall die.......sounds to me like all are going to die because of their sin..........wouldn't you say?

Or, are the futurists now counted along with all other sinners, excluding preterists....?

Check out the word "wages" in the verse. Does it make any differnce to your gospel that the word actually means "rations"?

Joel

[Screaming Eagle]

That is one of the most carnal mindsets I've ever heard in my life.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

That is one of the most carnal mindsets I've ever heard in my life.
Hey there Paul,

Could you point out which part of his post was "carnal?"

I suspect you did not follow his initial advice in which he said "Think carefully ... "

So let's think carefully through his post:

If the wages of sin is PHYSICAL death (Romans 6:23), and
This certainly is a carnal interpretation of the effects of sin! It ignores the direct teaching of Scripture which states that we were "dead" in our sins when we were still physically alive! It is this carnal interpretation of death that leads to the absurd conclusion TruthSeeker was seeking to expose. I will refer to this as the "carnal premise" below.

if Jesus paid our penalty of sin for us, and
if Jesus was the substitutionary atonement, and
if Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us, and
if through belief in Him the curse of sin is removed, and
if Jesus said in John 11:26 "...whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die..."
Is there anything "carnal" in these words? I see nothing carnal here. I think we can all agree with the truth of all these statements. Thus, when we combine these accepted statements with the carnal premise stated above, we arrive at two possible conclusions, neither of which is acceptable:

Then either no one has ever truly believe in the Lord Jesus Christ

OR

We still have to pay the penalty for sin!

Think about it...

I hope this helps others really think about it. Here is a simplified syllogistic form:

Major Premise: Physical Death is the penalty for sin
Minor Premise: Christ removed the penalty of sin for all believers
Conclusion: No believers will physically die.

Since we know the conclusion is false, we know that either the Major or the Minor Premise is false.

So which is it?

Richard the Raging Logician

[Richard Amiel McGough]

That is one of the most carnal mindsets I've ever heard in my life.
Upon further reflection, I get the impression that you call that post "carnal" because it is based on "either/or" logic which you identified as "carnal" in other posts.

If so, your theory is fatally flawed because it contradicts itself.

It sounds like you are saying that we must choose either "both/and" or "either/or." Therefore, your logic is self-defeating because you can not communicate the difference between "both/and" and "either/or" without using "either/or" language. Therefore, your conclusion that we should prefer "both/and" is based upon carnal "either/or" logic.

Given the self-contradictory nature of this proposed distinction between "both/and" and "either/or" I am unable to accept it as a helpful conceptual distinction.

[joel]

Richard,
You are getting soooooooo technical.

Is everything based on logic....and the scientific process.....or the laws of mathematics......or......the ism of ism? (I thought you'd love that one!)

Let's go back to what Paul said to the Corinthians.......that which divides us is a result of being carnal (sarkikos)......it is actually based on the flesh....and how the flesh reasons, and comes to conclusions, and decides.....

We are to become spiritual (pneumatikos).....in that how we reason, and think, and decide.....is the result of being "spiritual".......

Paul described the result as having a spiritual mindset (phromena pneuma)....in Romans 8 as opposed to a mind set which is set on the flesh.....Phronema sarx.

Has anyone responded yet as to my observation that the "rations" of sin is death.....not the wages?

Wages are paid for work......rations are alloted from a master to a slave, or a military leader to his subordinate.

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard,
You are getting soooooooo technical.

Is everything based on logic....and the scientific process.....or the laws of mathematics......or......the ism of ism? (I thought you'd love that one!)

Ah ... you noticed my predilection for precision ... yes, well, I guess that's not entirely inaccurate!

But in answer to your question, I am compelled to exclaim a most emphatic NO! Everything is not based on logic .... not by a long shot. On the contrary, almost nothing is based on logic. Indeed, logic encompasses a set of measure zero, like the subset of rational numbers amongst the reals. Ooooops! There I go again! :doh:



Let's go back to what Paul said to the Corinthians.......that which divides us is a result of being carnal (sarkikos)......it is actually based on the flesh....and how the flesh reasons, and comes to conclusions, and decides.....

That's a good question - I'd love to discuss it. Is "reasoning by logic" carnal? How does the "spirit" decide something? I think there is a very important distinction to be explored here. It's like the popular distinction between "heart" and "logic." Spock and Kirk.



We are to become spiritual (pneumatikos).....in that how we reason, and think, and decide.....is the result of being "spiritual".......

Paul described the result as having a spiritual mindset (phromena pneuma)....in Romans 8 as opposed to a mind set which is set on the flesh.....Phronema sarx.

I agree totally. But when it comes to logical assertions about the meaning of words, then I am often compelled to analyze accordingly. There is a place for logic. The fact that logic must be subject to a more profound "knowing" that is connected with faith does not mean the two are exclusive of each other.

I don't think Paul was talking about "logic" vs. "faith." I think he was talking about the objects of our attention and desire. Do we focus on the things of this earth, like clothes, food, sex and entertainment, or do we focus on the things of God like love, joy, peace and truth?



Has anyone responded yet as to my observation that the "rations" of sin is death.....not the wages?

Wages are paid for work......rations are alloted from a master to a slave, or a military leader to his subordinate.

Joel
Interesting observation! Sounds very "logical" to me! :winking0071:

But I'm not sure if we can draw that distinction from the word or not. The dictionary says that this word is usually used for military pay. It didn't say anything about slave "rations." Where did you get that idea? Here's the relevant entry from Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament:
1. The Baptist when preaching to the soldiers in Lk. 3:14 warns them against abusing their armed power and also against trying to seize by force the 'allowances' needed because their pay was so small. To be content with one’s pay is thus to put one’s own claims second to the commandments of God and to be satisfied with a modest standard of living.

2. When Paul uses ὀψώνιον for the support given him by the churches (2 C. 11:8; cf. 1 C. 9:7), there is both a reference to the metaphor of the militia Christi and also an emphasis on the legal claim implicit in the concept. Not claiming the ὀψώνιον is an act of freedom on the apostle’s part in relation to the churches and also a venture of faith, which refuses any assured basis of subsistence. In the use of the term there may also be allusion to the thought that the support of the congregation never can or will be adequate compensation for the apostle’s work but is 'only' an ὀψώνιον.

3. In Romans 6:23 the context shows that three aspects are emphasised,


a. Since ὀψώνια serve to defray the costs of subsistence, the first part of the verse contains a sharp contrast: 'The subsistence which sin pays and offers is death.' Sin is a deceiver; it promises life and gives death,

b. Since ὀψώιον is not a single payment but continuous, θάνατος cannot be simply the end of life or the final penalty, but is also the active shadow which this death projects on life. As eternal life is already granted to the justified through the ἀρραβών of the Spirit, so sin already holds out to its servants deadly poison from the cup of death,

c. Since the term is a legal one in contrast to χάρισμα (the special gift), the relation of law is set over against that of grace in the two halves of the verse. Man has rights only in relation to sin, and these rights become his judgment. When he throws himself on God without claim, salvation comes to him.
I didn't see anything explains the "rations" idea. Could you present the definition you followed?

Thanks bro!

Richard

[CWH]

It doesn't matter whether we die a physical death or not but it is the one who did the will of the Father in Heaven that determines if one goes to heaven or not.

Matthew 7:21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

It doesn't matter whether we die a physical death or not but it is the one who did the will of the Father in Heaven that determines if one goes to heaven or not.

Hi Cheow,

I agree it doesn't matter to us personally if we physically die since we know that Christ has saved us and we will live forever with Him.

But it does matter very much to our understanding of Scripture if the "death" that Christ saved us from was spiritual rather than physical. That changes everything about the debate concerning the nature of the resurrection which is one of the central issues folks use in their effort to refute Preterism.

So it is very important ... we know this because folks have been arguing over this very issue for many years now.

All the very best!

Richard

[Edward Goodie]

It doesn't matter whether we die a physical death or not but it is the one who did the will of the Father in Heaven that determines if one goes to heaven or not.

Matthew 7:21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Many Blessings.

How does your post relate to what I said in the original post? My post is regarding the payment of the penalty for sin if physical death is the penalty for sin...and then you post about what determines a person going to heaven or not...???

[CWH]

Actually, I am not too happy with the title, "Futurists Must Pay the Penalty for their Sin!". Doesn't it sounds iike a judgement? Maybe I am sensitive, but how would you feel if the title is "Preterists Must Pay the Penalty for Their Sin!" ? Which is why I wanted to instill a sense of consideration in my post when I say, "It doesn't matter whether we die a physical death or not but it is the one who did the will of the Father in Heaven that determines if one goes to heaven or not".

Hope this clears.

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Actually, I am not too happy with the title, "Futurists Must Pay the Penalty for their Sin!". Doesn't it sounds iike a judgement? Maybe I am sensitive, but how would you feel if the title is "Preterists Must Pay the Penalty for Their Sin!" ? Which is why I wanted to instill a sense of consideration in my post when I say, "It doesn't matter whether we die a physical death or not but it is the one who did the will of the Father in Heaven that determines if one goes to heaven or not".

Hope this clears.

Many Blessings.
Good point Cheow.

I agree. I don't think it is appropriate for any thread titles to be seen as an attack on anyone.

I think a better title would be "Is Physical Death the Penalty for Sin?"

TruthSeaker ... do you think that would be a good title?

[Screaming Eagle]

There are a lot of 'if's' there that are presumption.

[TheForgiven]

Good point brother TruthSeeker! I don't believe I've ever expressed that conclusion before.

I'll make it a little easier for the audiences to understand.

Futurist's insist that physical death is the result of Adam's sin. Paul states that Jesus is the opposite, or the counter product of Adam. Adam sinned, resulting in death to all because through Adam and Eve, sin was given birth.

Jesus, the reversal of Adam and Eve, gave birth to righteousness, resulting in life to all men.

Now Christ died on the cross so that He became the curse of death for us. We who believe in Him have life eternally. But there's a problem. If Adam was the cause of physical death, and Jesus is the cause of life eternally, then why do we still die?

The point was the "Physical" death was not the curse, for all men die and afterwards face judgment. Not even Adam was designed to live forever in the human earthly body. When God said, "If you eat of this fruit, you shall surely die [paraphrasing]", He was not talking about physical death, but spiritual. Paul explains that a man dies once he has obtained knowledge of sin, for without knowledge, sin cannot be imputed. When Adam and Eve ate the apple, the knowledge of right and wrong, good and bad, sin and righteousness became part of their conscious. The result, having learned for their lust after seeing each naked for the first time, resulted in death.....spiritual death.

Regarding our conscious, we are made clean through the blood of Christ:

Hebrews 10:

19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Thus, we who are in Christ have had our conscious made clean, and our lives made eternal. And as Paul says:

2 Corinthians 4:16
Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.

We all are going to physically die, but although we die physically each and ever day (getting older), our inward mind is being renewed every day, IF we live and walk by the eternal life of the Holy Spirit.

In conclusion, it is quite obvious that physical death was not the curse of sin. For if that were true, and Christ set us free from the curse, then how come we still die? The answer? We were not set free from physical death, but from the curse of sin, through the cross of calvary.

Unto the Eternal, Immortal God who took on flesh, preached among the world, and became the curse for us that the righteousness of God may be revealed in us, be forever and ever! Amen! :pray:

Joe

[Screaming Eagle]

Futurist's insist that physical death is the result of Adam's sin.

Forgiven, This is presumption on your part. I don't know exactly who you consider to be 'futurists' but that's not an accurate statement. Adam did not 'die' physically so there's no reason or basis for what you have to say in this statement. It was 'spiritual' death in separation from God Almighty that is referred to in Genesis.

If Adam was the cause of physical death, and Jesus is the cause of life eternally, then why do we still die?

This statement is a continuation of the lack of understanding of the passage in Genesis.

I saw that you did get the correct conclusion that Christ Himself (IN Him) IS Life eternal and that we exist IN Him (for in Him we live and move and have our being). We exist IN the second Adam to bring forth His Life.

[Edward Goodie]

Good point Cheow.

I agree. I don't think it is appropriate for any thread titles to be seen as an attack on anyone.

I think a better title would be "Is Physical Death the Penalty for Sin?"

TruthSeeker ... do you think that would be a good title?

RAM is right. I should not have used the word "futurist" so loosely in my title. I guess I worded it that way because every futurist that I have encountered (whether in person or online) has always being rather emphatic that the death that Adam suffered as a direct result of sin was physical death. Some even venture to say that "in some sense" he died spiritually too, but never seem to address how Christ pays for this "in some sense death."

I apologize if I have offended any futurists on this forum with that title. Perhaps the administer has the ability to change the title more appropriately??

[Richard Amiel McGough]

RAM is right. I should not have used the word "futurist" so loosely in my title. I guess I worded it that way because every futurist that I have encountered (whether in person or online) has always being rather emphatic that the death that Adam suffered as a direct result of sin was physical death. Some even venture to say that "in some sense" he died spiritually too, but never seem to address how Christ pays for this "in some sense death."

I apologize if I have offended any futurists on this forum with that title. Perhaps the administer has the ability to change the title more appropriately??
Yes indeed, the Admin has amazing power in the tiny corner of reality represented by this forum. I can edit the titles of threads! :woohoo:

Thanks for the apology TS. I understand the frustration when it seems that the disputes just go on and on and on .... but remember, the folks on the other side feel the same way. That's why I always try to ground the discussion on the foundation of what the Bible really says. It's surprising how challenging even that can be.

Now I think we have a great title for this thread, and that this topic is really very significant. It directly impacts the dispute between futurists and preterists which is one reason folks might not want to agree.

So let's see who is on board with the new title. I am asking for everyone to state whether or not physical death is the penalty for sin.

Richard

[TheForgiven]

Futurist's insist that physical death is the result of Adam's sin.


Forgiven, This is presumption on your part. I don't know exactly who you consider to be 'futurists' but that's not an accurate statement. Adam did not 'die' physically so there's no reason or basis for what you have to say in this statement. It was 'spiritual' death in separation from God Almighty that is referred to in Genesis.

There are many, and I stress, "MANY" Futurist's who insist that Adam's sin caused physical death. This is what they refer to as Paradise taken away. When all things are supposedly restored, the eternal paradise as was originally created during Adam and Eve, will be restored. That's what many Futurist's insist. Thus, they believe that sin caused the physical deaths of everyone, until one day (based on their view) when sin it taken away forever, no more sinners, and thus a restore paradise. We all go back to eating fruit from the tree of life, and literally partake of the fruit of the vine.

This may not be your position, but you'll find a few futurist's who believe this; more than you could count even on this forum.


If Adam was the cause of physical death, and Jesus is the cause of life eternally, then why do we still die?


This statement is a continuation of the lack of understanding of the passage in Genesis.

Oh really? :lol: Well then my fellow brother in Christ Jesus. Enlighten me since you and I are apparently thinking differently.


I saw that you did get the correct conclusion that Christ Himself (IN Him) IS Life eternal and that we exist IN Him (for in Him we live and move and have our being). We exist IN the second Adam to bring forth His Life.

Granted, but is this not the elementary teaching of the Christ? We were all in the beginning devoid of the Spirit, having only a spirit of sinning. But when we were born again, from above, the Spirit shines a light in our hearts and enlightens us so that we understand the true nature; the divine nature, and learn to say no to sin, and yes to not sinning.

Anyways, perhaps you'd better start another thread my friend, and let us discuss Genesis, should you feel the need my friend. We are all here to discuss these things.

God bless.

Joe

[Screaming Eagle]

I have never heard one person that that physical death is the result of Adam's sin. Sounds to me like veiled slander of an entire group of people who just happen to believe things different from you.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I have never heard one person that that physical death is the result of Adam's sin. Sounds to me like veiled slander of an entire group of people who just happen to believe things different from you.
As you know, I changed the title of this thread to avoid giving the impression of slander, and TS agreed that it was a good idea, and he apologized too.

This is the way I want this forum to be - slander free! If ever you have any complaints or concerns, please voice them and I will do everything in my power to fix the situation. My one desire is that folks with different opinions can interact with mutual respect and much grace because I believe that iron sharpens iron.

:fencing:

That said, let's get back on topic.

:focus:

[TheForgiven]

I have never heard one person that that physical death is the result of Adam's sin. Sounds to me like veiled slander of an entire group of people who just happen to believe things different from you.

Here's a website that talks of the physical death prior to, and after, the fall:

http://paleo.cc/ce/nodeath.htm

This was not a slander attempt at you, but at those who believe that Adam's sin resulted in all of mankind's physical death, via expulsion from paradise. These believers teach that the tree of life existed in the garden, and when they sinned, they were banned from paradise; hence, no more eternal life. They then teach that when Christ returns, the tree of life will be restored, and paradise will once again dominate this earth.

This was not "slander of an entire group of people". Nor was it an attack towards you.

I believe you'll find in my debates that I tend be as informative as I can. Some of my past debates on other Christian forums presented the expulsion from paradise theories. As of now, unless I'm mistaken, the only Futurist on here that believes in the physical death teaching is Cheow...but again, I could be wrong, and I invite his correction if I am wrong for including him in that category.

At any rate, I'll get back to the discussion.

Was physical death the penalty of sin? No, it was not.

Paul says:

1 Corinthians 15:

54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “ O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Sin resulted in [spiritual] death; thus separation from God. Just as the temple is dead without the Spirit of God, so too our temples are dead without the Spirit of God who gives us life to our mortal bodies. Now Paul also shows that when a person is resurrected, they thus show that the victory of death no longer has dominion. For in the past, prior to Christ, the dead were sent to Hades. Since the first century, in my opinion, the dead go straight into judgment as there is no more hades...this is another discussion in itself. I believe Hades was destroyed after the judgment of Jerusalem in 70AD, when the temple was destroyed....again, this is an entirely different discussion.

In conclusion, Adam's sin (to include Eve) did not cause physical death; they would have died anyways. But their sin led to separation from God, and that separation became death by sin. Jesus, the reversal of the process, gives life to those who were dead. That is why Paul explains that we who are dying who die daily, are being renewed day-by-day.

Physical death due to sin? My answer is no.

Joe

[CWH]

Yes, I believe that physical death was due to the sin committed by Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve was supposed to have eternal life but because of their disobedience to God not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that grant of eternal life was taken away. God allowed them to lived long life and then died a physical death. If Eve and Adam did not sinned by eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, all of us now living in this world would have eternal life. On the other hand, I also know that Adam and Eve had sinned spiritually as they disobeyed God and listened to Satan. In other words, the sin of Adam and Eve resulted in physical death and spiritual death in his descendants. One day God will re-instate eternal life to human beings again and only then will human beings not die physically and spiritually.

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Yes, I believe that physical death was due to the sin committed by Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve was supposed to have eternal life but because of their disobedience to God not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that grant of eternal life was taken away. God allowed them to lived long life and then died a physical death. If Eve and Adam did not sinned by eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, all of us now living in this world would have eternal life. On the other hand, I also know that Adam and Eve had sinned spiritually as they disobeyed God and listened to Satan. In other words, the sin of Adam and Eve resulted in physical death and spiritual death in his descendants. One day God will re-instate eternal life to human beings again and only then will human beings not die physically and spiritually.

Many Blessings.
I agree that the physical death of Adam and Eve resulted from their sin, but that does not mean it was the penalty of there sin. And neither does it necessarily imply that that was no death at all for other creatures. What if Adam stepped on a bug? It probably died. It is hard to imagine a physical world with physical creatures in which there is no physical death. And the Bible does not give us enough information to support the conclusion that there was no physical death before the fall.

Also, there is nothing in the story that tells us that physical death was the penalty for sin. This is the question we are exploring. It seems that we have a lot of information that tells us that spiritual death is the penalty of sin. If we understand death in the Bible this way, then many verses make sense which don't make sense if we interpret them as speaking of physical death. For example, we are told that we were "dead in our sins" when we were in fact very much physically alive. And Christ tells us that believers will never die so we know he was not talking about physical death.

It's also interesting that if the penalty of sin were physical death, then each person could pay that penalty themselves by physically dieing so there would be no need for Christ's atonement.

Just some thoughts to chew on ... :pop2:

[CWH]

It is quite clear that because Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which will lead to physical death which is why God said "for dust you are and to dust you will return".

Genesis 3:17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

20 Adam [c] named his wife Eve, [d] because she would become the mother of all the living.

21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

I am not sure if there is another tree known as the tree of life in the Garen of Eden which if eaten will lead to eternal life.

Yes, No creature in the Garden of Eden have eternal life. We know from verse 22 that if anyone ate from the tree of life, he will have eternal life which was why God would not allowed Adam to eat from the tree from the tree of life after the fall and live forever. If anyone ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil then he will know what is good and what is evil. It was because Adam and Eve did ate from the tree of good and evil that "they shall surely die". Is that word "die" meant spiritual death? Obviously not, it meant physical death.

Therefore, I believe that it was because Adam and Eve sinned by not listening to God's command and wanted to be like God knowing good and evil which resulted in physical death. And because they did not obey God, that leads to spiritual death as well. That to me is the penalty for sin for both physical death and spiritual death. For if Adam and Eve did not sin, they would have eaten from the tree of life and we would all be enjoying eternal life with no sin right now.

Many Blessings.

[Elect Lady]

It is quite clear that because Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which will lead to physical death which is why God said "for dust you are and to dust you will return".

Genesis 3:17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

20 Adam [c] named his wife Eve, [d] because she would become the mother of all the living.

21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

I am not sure if there is another tree known as the tree of life in the Garen of Eden which if eaten will lead to eternal life.

Yes, No creature in the Garden of Eden have eternal life. We know from verse 22 that if anyone ate from the tree of life, he will have eternal life which was why God would not allowed Adam to eat from the tree from the tree of life after the fall and live forever. If anyone ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil then he will know what is good and what is evil. It was because Adam and Eve did ate from the tree of good and evil that "they shall surely die". Is that word "die" meant spiritual death? Obviously not, it meant physical death.

Cheow, I believe it meant both!




Therefore, I believe that it was because Adam and Eve sinned by not listening to God's command and wanted to be like God knowing good and evil which resulted in physical death. And because they did not obey God, that leads to spiritual death as well. That to me is the penalty for sin for both physical death and spiritual death.

I agree!


For if Adam and Eve did not sin, they would have eaten from the tree of life and we would all be enjoying eternal life with no sin right now.

Many Blessings.

Perhaps, but on the other hand had they not sinned we may not be here now, because Adam may not have known Eve (Genesis 4:1), and she conceived being the mother of all living (Genesis 3:20).:winking0071:


Elect Lady

[CWH]

Cheow, I believe it meant both!

Perhaps, but on the other hand had they not sinned we may not be here now, because Adam may not have known Eve (Genesis 4:1), and she conceived being the mother of all living (Genesis 3:20).:winking0071:


Elect Lady

Thanks Elect Lady and welcome to the forum:welcome::yo:

There were only Eve and Adam in the Garden of Eden which means whether Eve like it or not, Adam will have to be her life partner and they had to follow God's command to populate the world.

The other reason why physical death is the penalty for sin is because as the people in Genesis progressed, they became more sinful and as a result their lifespan became shorter and shorter from Adam who live to about 950 to about 120 years for Moses. This was also the reason why God said in Genesis 6:3 that the lifespan of man will be about/up to 120 years. So far in human recorded history, no one have lived for more than 125 years.

I did a research years back and realized that the Kings of Israel as recorded from the book of Kings and Chronicles, the length of their lifespan was related to how evil or good they were; evil kings have a shorter lifespan and good kings have a longer lifespan. Will follow up on that later. This goes the same with a research with longetivity (people above 100 years old). The researchers realized that people who lead simple, stress free life and are religious, kind, good tend to live longer lifespan.

All these tend to indicate that the penalty for sin is physical death; the more evil you are, the shorter your lifespan.

Will talk later.

Many Blessings to you.

[CWH]

Now to continue. Even Josephus agreed that the longetivity of the patriach have something to do with their virtues:

The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus writes the following about this subject:

"Now when Noah had lived three hundred and fifty years after the Flood, and that all that time happily, he died, having lived the number of nine hundred and fifty years. But let no one, upon comparing the lives of the ancients with our lives, and with the few years which we now live, think that what we have said of them is false; or make the shortness of our lives at present an argument, that neither did they attain to so long a duration of life, for those ancients were beloved of God, and [lately] made by God himself; and because their food was then fitter for the prolongation of life, might well live so great a number of years: and besides, God afforded them a longer time of life on account of their virtue, and the good use they made of it in astronomical and geometrical discoveries, which would not have afforded the time of foretelling [the periods of the stars] unless they had lived six hundred years; for the great year is completed in that interval."


During my research on the kings of Israel, I found that evil kings lived/reigned shorter than "good" kings :

http://www.biblestudy.org/prophecy/israel-kings.html

Old Testament Timeline
Kings of Ancient Israel and Judah

931 - 910
Jeroboam I
22
Bad

931 - 913
Rehoboam
17
Bad mostly

910 - 909
Nadab
2
Bad

913 - 911
Abijam
(Abijah)
3
Bad mostly

909 - 886
Baasha
24
Bad

911- 870
Asa
41
Good

886 - 885
Elah
2
Bad

885
Zimri
7 days
Bad

885 - 874
Omri
12
Extra Bad

874 - 853
Ahab
22
The Worst

870 - 848
Jehoshaphat
25
Good

853 - 852
Ahaziah
2
Bad

848 - 841
Jehoram
(Joram)
8
Bad

852 - 841
Joram
(Jehoram)
11
Bad mostly

841
Ahaziah
(Azariah)
1
Bad

841 - 814
Jehu
28
Bad mostly

841 - 835
Athaliah
(Queen)
6
Devilish

814 - 798
Jehoahaz
17
Bad

835 - 796
Joash
(Jehoash)
40
Good mostly


798 - 782
Joash
(Jehoash)
16
Bad

796 - 767
Amaziah
29
Good mostly

782 - 753
Jeroboam II *
41
Bad

767 - 740
Uzziah
(Azariah)
52
Good

753
Zechariah
6 months
Bad

740 - 732
Jotham
16
Good

752
Shallum
1 month
Bad

752 - 742
Menahem
10
Bad

742 - 740
Pekahiah
2
Bad

740 - 732
Pekah
20
Bad

732 - 716
Ahaz
16
Wicked

732 - 722
Hoshea
9
Bad

716 - 687
Hezekiah
29
The Best

722 - 721
FALL OF ISRAEL
Northern Ten Tribes
taken captive by Assyrian Empire

687 - 643
Manasseh
55
The Worst

643 - 641
Amon
2
The Worst

641 - 609
Josiah
31
The Best

609
Jehoahaz
(Shallum)
3 months
Bad

609 - 598
Jehoiakim
11
Wicked

598
Jehoiachin
(Jeconiah)
3 months
Bad

597 - 586
Zedekiah
(Mattariah)
11
Bad

Those good kings are highlighted in red and their reign were from 16 years (Jotham) to 52 years (Uzziah): those bad kings their reign was from 7 days (Zimri) to 55 years (Manasseh). The reason why Manasseh reigned 55 years was because he later repented (2 Chronicles 33). There are many bad kings and they reigned for only a few months to a few years.

Many Blessings to all.

[CWH]

I managed to gather some data from Kings and Chronicles as to how long many of these good and bad kings of Israel lived so that we can compared if generally good kings outlived bad kings. Bad kings were usually kings that rebelled against God's commandments, worshipped idols and ruled wickedly.

Old Testament Timeline
Kings of Ancient Israel and Judah

931 - 910
Jeroboam I
22
Bad
Lived ? years

931 - 913
Rehoboam
17
Bad mostly
Lived 58 years

910 - 909
Nadab
2
Bad
Lived ? years

913 - 911
Abijam
(Abijah)
3
Bad mostly
Lived ? years

909 - 886
Baasha
24
Bad
Lived ? years

911- 870
Asa
41
Good
Lived ? years

886 - 885
Elah
2
Bad
Lived ? years

885
Zimri
7 days
Bad
Lived ? years

885 - 874
Omri
12
Extra Bad
Lived ? years

874 - 853
Ahab
22
The Worst
Lived ? years

870 - 848
Jehoshaphat
25
Good
Lived 60 years

853 - 852
Ahaziah
2
Bad
Lived ? years

848 - 841
Jehoram
(Joram)
8
Bad
Lived 40 years

852 - 841
Joram
(Jehoram)
11
Bad mostly
Lived ? years

841
Ahaziah
(Azariah)
1
Bad
Lived 23 years

841 - 814
Jehu
28
Bad mostly
Lived ? years

841 - 835
Athaliah
(Queen)
6
Devilish
Lived ? years

814 - 798
Jehoahaz
17
Bad
Lived ? years

835 - 796
Joash
(Jehoash)
40
Good mostly
Lived 47 years


798 - 782
Joash
(Jehoash)
16
Bad
Lived ? years

796 - 767
Amaziah
29
Good mostly
Lived 54 years

782 - 753
Jeroboam II *
41
Bad
Lived ? years

767 - 740
Uzziah
(Azariah)
52
Good
Lived 68 years

753
Zechariah
6 months
Bad
Lived ? years

740 - 732
Jotham
16
Good
Lived 41 years

752
Shallum
1 month
Bad
Lived ? years

752 - 742
Menahem
10
Bad
Lived ? years

742 - 740
Pekahiah
2
Bad
Lived ? years

740 - 732
Pekah
20
Bad
Lived ? years

732 - 716
Ahaz
16
Wicked
Lived 36 years

732 - 722
Hoshea
9
Bad
Lived ? years

716 - 687
Hezekiah
29
The Best
Lived 56 years

722 - 721
FALL OF ISRAEL
Northern Ten Tribes
taken captive by Assyrian Empire

687 - 643
Manasseh
55
The Worst
Lived 67 years (repented)

643 - 641
Amon
2
The Worst
Lived 24 years

641 - 609
Josiah
31
The Best
Lived 39 years

609
Jehoahaz
(Shallum)
3 months
Bad
Lived 23 years

609 - 598
Jehoiakim
11
Wicked
Lived 36 years

598
Jehoiachin
(Jeconiah)
3 months
Bad
Lived 18 years

597 - 586
Zedekiah
(Mattariah)
11
Bad
Lived 32 years

The good kings of Israel lived from the age of 39 (Josiah to age 68 (Uzziah) years whereas the bad kings lived from the age of 18 (Jehoiachin) to 67 years (Manasseh repented) or 58 years (Rehoboam). This may show that God allowed good kings to live longer (as a reward) and bad kings to live shorter as a punishment for their sin. It appears to me that prolonging the life span of evil kings of Israel and evil people as in the days of the patriarch is tantamount to prolonging the sin and evilness in ancient Israel and the world.

Many Blessings.

[Elect Lady]

Thanks Elect Lady and welcome to the forum:welcome::yo:

Hi Cheow Wee Hock,

You're welcome, and thank you for welcoming me to the forum. I really like it here!.:signthankspin:




There were only Eve and Adam in the Garden of Eden which means whether Eve like it or not, Adam will have to be her life partner and they had to follow God's command to populate the world.

The other reason why physical death is the penalty for sin is because as the people in Genesis progressed, they became more sinful and as a result their lifespan became shorter and shorter from Adam who live to about 950 to about 120 years for Moses. This was also the reason why God said in Genesis 6:3 that the lifespan of man will be about/up to 120 years. So far in human recorded history, no one have lived for more than 125 years.

I did a research years back and realized that the Kings of Israel as recorded from the book of Kings and Chronicles, the length of their lifespan was related to how evil or good they were; evil kings have a shorter lifespan and good kings have a longer lifespan. Will follow up on that later. This goes the same with a research with longetivity (people above 100 years old). The researchers realized that people who lead simple, stress free life and are religious, kind, good tend to live longer lifespan.

All these tend to indicate that the penalty for sin is physical death; the more evil you are, the shorter your lifespan.

Very interesting!




Will talk later.

Many Blessings to you.

I look forward to talking later.

Many Blessings to you too,

Elect Lady

[CWH]

I believed that God played a part in deciding how long each bad and good kings of Israel and Judah lived reigned. Bad sinful kings will generally reigned and lived shorter unless they repented and good kings generally reigned and lived longer. This shows that physical death is the penalty for sin. To extend the reign and life span of sinful kings of Israel was to prolong the sinfulness and sufferings of Israel which was why God cut their life span short, whereas God tends to extend the reign and life span of good kings in order to prolong goodness in Israel. Take a look at the life span of good and bad kings of Israel arrange based on length of lifespan in years according to the data I provided the previous post and you will know what I mean:

Bad: Jehoiachin 18..Azariah 23..Jehoahaz 23..Amon 24..Zedekiah 32..Ahaz 36..Jehoakim 36....Joram 40..Rehoboam 58..Manasseh 67 (repented)
Good:............................................. .................................................. ....................Josiah 39..Jotham 41..Joash 47..Amaziah 54..Hezekiah 56..Jehoshaphat 60..Uzziah 68

The rest of the earlier kings of Israel such as Saul David, Solomon were all considered as good kings and they lived to their 70s or 80s and were not included.

Short life goes to those who disobey God and therefore a penalty for sin and Long Life goes well to those who follow the commandments of God:

Deuteronomy 11: 8 Observe therefore all the commands I am giving you today, so that you may have the strength to go in and take over the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess, 9 and so that you may live long in the land that the LORD swore to your forefathers to give to them and their descendants, a land flowing with milk and honey. 10 The land you are entering to take over is not like the land of Egypt, from which you have come, where you planted your seed and irrigated it by foot as in a vegetable garden. 11 But the land you are crossing the Jordan to take possession of is a land of mountains and valleys that drinks rain from heaven. 12 It is a land the LORD your God cares for; the eyes of the LORD your God are continually on it from the beginning of the year to its end.

13 So if you faithfully obey the commands I am giving you today—to love the LORD your God and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul- 14 then I will send rain on your land in its season, both autumn and spring rains, so that you may gather in your grain, new wine and oil. 15 I will provide grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will eat and be satisfied.

16 Be careful, or you will be enticed to turn away and worship other gods and bow down to them. 17 Then the LORD's anger will burn against you, and he will shut the heavens so that it will not rain and the ground will yield no produce, and you will soon perish from the good land the LORD is giving you. 18 Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 19 Teach them to your children, talking about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 20 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates, 21 so that your days and the days of your children may be many in the land that the LORD swore to give your forefathers, as many as the days that the heavens are above the earth.

Many Blessings.

[CWH]

Another verse which clearly states that sin leads to death:

James 1"13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death".

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Another verse which clearly states that sin leads to death:

James 1"13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death".

Many Blessings.
Yes indeed ... but what kind of death? That is the question.

Physical? Spiritual? Or both?

If we say physical, does that mean that people die only because of sin? Does that mean that no one has really been forgiven by Christ yet?

And then we need to ask what Christ meant when He said that believers would never die. Yet they die physically every day!

[CWH]

Whether spiritual or physical death doesn't matter "for all of us have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". All death spirtual or physical leads to death.

Many Blessings.

[TheForgiven]

Another verse which clearly states that sin leads to death:

James 1"13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death".

Many Blessings.

James, in my opinion, was not referring to physical death in this passage. Everyone dies physically, so then should we assume that everyone dies because of sin, if this death is physical? Notice how James is referring to those who become entangled with sin, eventually leading to spiritual death. He's not speaking about unsaved people dying here; he's referring to brothers and sisters in Christ hypothetically accusing God of tempting them. James correct his readers and assures them that individual Christians are tempted by their own evil desires (I like to call them bad habits). When a Christian is tempted, and they give into temptation, sin is born again within their lives. When this birth grows into maturity (gains full mastery over them, leaving them defeated), spiritual death is the result.

Christ Jesus, (rather His Spirit) is what gives us spiritual life. But when His Spirit departs from our temples, our houses are left in order, but He no longer abides there. Thus, we become an empty house. This is what's referred to as spiritual death; when a person no longer listens to the Holy Spirit because of sins mastery over us. Thus, as St. Peter states regarding these who die again because of sin, "A dog returns to its vomit" and again, "A Sow after washing returns to its wallowing in the mire.".

This is a spiritual death.

Joe

[CWH]

"For all of us have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", therefore, whether we die physically or spiritually we all have sinned. Physical sin + Spiritual sin = Death.

Many Blessings.

[joel]

Cheow,

I just cannot get my head around "spiritual death". I know that many people use this expression but I cannot find it in scripture. Can you help me out?

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

"For all of us have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", therefore, whether we die physically or spiritually we all have sinned. Physical sin + Spiritual sin = Death.

Many Blessings.
Hummm .... you have introduced a new distinction.

Can there be "physical sin" without "spiritual sin?" All sin begins as "spiritual sin." Then if a person acts on it, it becomes "physical sin." Is this what you were thinking? This reminds me of this verse:
Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
The original question was if "physical death" is the penalty for sin. We were asking which of these "equations" is correct (where "=" means "causes"):

Sin = Physical Death?
Sin = Spiritual Death?
Sin = Physical Death + Spiritual Death?

You moved the word "physical" from the right to the left of the equation.

Physical sin + Spiritual sin = Death

What kind of "death" did you mean in this equation? Spiritual, Physical, or Both?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Cheow,

I just cannot get my head around "spiritual death". I know that many people use this expression but I cannot find it in scripture. Can you help me out?

Joel
Hey Joel,

Could you help me understand the verses that say we were dead in sins and that Christ made us alive? Specifically:
Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
I'm trying to understand the contrast between being "dead in sins" and "made alive in Christ." It seems that Scripture makes a perfect contrast and comparison between being "dead in sins" and "alive in Christ." Note also that Paul says we were "raised up" in Christ. We find similar statements in many verses. How should I understand this?

Thanks bro!

Richard

[CWH]

Cheow,

I just cannot get my head around "spiritual death". I know that many people use this expression but I cannot find it in scripture. Can you help me out?

Joel

There is no such thing as spiritual death, does spirits die? Only God can destroy both body and spirit. Spiritual death means death without God. Non-believers will die physically, same as believers. Does it means that non-believers and believers all die in sin? Yes, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, therefore all of us die physically. It's only through the grace of God can one be saved.

Hope this answers why people die physically every day... because all of us have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hope this answers why people die physically every day... because all of us have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Many Blessings.
Yes, that is very true, but did not Christ forgive us our sins? Why then do we still die?

And what did Jesus mean when He said that believers will "never die?"

So we are still seeking an answer to the question: Is physical death the penalty for sin? If so, why do believers who have had their sins forgiven, still die?

[CWH]

Yes, that is very true, but did not Christ forgive us our sins? Why then do we still die?

And what did Jesus mean when He said that believers will "never die?"

So we are still seeking an answer to the question: Is physical death the penalty for sin? If so, why do believers who have had their sins forgiven, still die?

God's judgement is fair to both good and evil:

Matthew 5:45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If God "maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.", isn't it fair that God make the evil and good also suffer the same fate as physical death? And to be fair, they will all be judge together one day at the GWT.

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

God's judgement is fair to both good and evil:

Matthew 5:45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If God "maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.", isn't it fair that God make the evil and good also suffer the same fate as physical death? And to be fair, they will all be judge together one day at the GWT.

Many Blessings.
So you see physical death as "God being fair" to the just and unjust? Why should the just suffer capital punishment? I thought that penalty was imposed only on the unjust.

[CWH]

So you see physical death as "God being fair" to the just and unjust? Why should the just suffer capital punishment? I thought that penalty was imposed only on the unjust.

The just and the unjust suffer capital punishment because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Only through the grace of God can one be saved. They will all be judge and be rewarded/punished accordingly at the regeneration.

Matthew 19:24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

27Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

29And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

30But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.


Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The just and the unjust suffer capital punishment because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Only through the grace of God can one be saved. They will all be judge and be rewarded/punished accordingly at the regeneration.

But why do Christians have to suffer physical death if they have been forgiven of their sins?

It seems like you are saying that physical death is not the penalty of sin, otherwise only the unjust would suffer it.

[joel]

Richard, if you were to use the "original text" from your database, and not the KJV rendering of Ephesians 2:1, would this be an accurate display?

και (and)
υμας (you)
οντας (who were)
νεκρους (dead)
τοις (to your)
παραπτωμασι (offenses)
και (and)
ταις (your)
αμαρτιαις (sins)

If so, Paul is not describing us, as believers who were once "dead in trespasses and sins"......
but, to us as believers who are "dead to (our) offenses and sins".

Wouldn't this be the same type of application as would be found in Romans 6:11 where we are exhorted to "reckon indeed yourselves dead unto sin"?


Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard, if you were to use the "original text" from your database, and not the KJV rendering of Ephesians 2:1, would this be an accurate display?

και (and)
υμας (you)
οντας (who were)
νεκρους (dead)
τοις (to your)
παραπτωμασι (offenses)
και (and)
ταις (your)
αμαρτιαις (sins)

If so, Paul is not describing us, as believers who were once "dead in trespasses and sins"......
but, to us as believers who are "dead to (our) offenses and sins".

Wouldn't this be the same type of application as would be found in Romans 6:11 where we are exhorted to "reckon indeed yourselves dead unto sin"?


Joel
Hey Joel,

I understand the idea that we reckon ourselves "dead to sins" because of our faith in what Christ has done. That makes perfect sense.

But I don't yet see how that meaning can apply in the verses I cited. Let's try to apply your suggestion to verse 5:

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead TO trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

I don't understand how "dead TO trespasses" relates to "made alive with Christ." How were we "dead to trespasses" before we were "made alive with Christ?" And why does the text say we were "made alive" if we were not previously "dead" in some sense?

Could you help me understand?

Thanks!

Richard

[joel]

Ephesians 2:5;

και (and)
οντας (being)
ημας (us)
νεκρους (dead)
τοις (to the)
παραπτωμασι (offenses)
συνεζωοποιησε (he makes together live)
τωι (to the)
χριστωι (annointed)
χαριτι (to grace)
εστε (ye are)
σεσωισμενοι (the ones having been saved)

We, the ones having been saved, are resting in the grace of God, being in the annointed (Christ Jesus). As we remain in these bodies, we are "dead to our offenses", and, "made together alive" in the annointed.

Because He was made alive again having been raised from the dead, we are made alive together in Him.

This has to do with our old humanity, and the new humanity. We are "together" buried, "together" planted,......having been "together crucified" with Him. And now, we "together live" with Him, (the new humanity, kainos anthropos) while at the same time, reckoning ourselves (in that our old humanity....palios anthropos) was put to death in Christ. I do not see how this is connected to our "spirits", as in "spiritual death". I do not believe there is anything in scripture that describes "spiritual death".

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Ephesians 2:5;

και (and)
οντας (being)
ημας (us)
νεκρους (dead)
τοις (to the)
παραπτωμασι (offenses)
συνεζωοποιησε (he makes together live)
τωι (to the)
χριστωι (annointed)
χαριτι (to grace)
εστε (ye are)
σεσωισμενοι (the ones having been saved)

We, the ones having been saved, are resting in the grace of God, being in the annointed (Christ Jesus). As we remain in these bodies, we are "dead to our offenses", and, "made together alive" in the annointed.

Because He was made alive again having been raised from the dead, we are made alive together in Him.

This has to do with our old humanity, and the new humanity. We are "together" buried, "together" planted,......having been "together crucified" with Him. And now, we "together live" with Him, (the new humanity, kainos anthropos) while at the same time, reckoning ourselves (in that our old humanity....palios anthropos) was put to death in Christ. I do not see how this is connected to our "spirits", as in "spiritual death". I do not believe there is anything in scripture that describes "spiritual death".

Joel
Thanks Joel, but I still need a little more help. Could you annotate this verse so that I can understand?

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead TO trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

This is my confusion: I don't understand how "dead TO trespasses" relates to "made alive with Christ." How were we "dead to trespasses" before we were "made alive with Christ?" And why does the text say we were "made alive" if we were not previously "dead" in some sense?

Thanks!

Richard

[Edward Goodie]

There is no such thing as spiritual death, does spirits die? Only God can destroy both body and spirit. Spiritual death means death without God. Non-believers will die physically, same as believers. Does it means that non-believers and believers all die in sin? Yes, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, therefore all of us die physically. It's only through the grace of God can one be saved.

Hope this answers why people die physically every day... because all of us have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Many Blessings.

Spiritual death has nothing to do with "spirits" dying. Spiritual death is simply not being with God, being separated from Him. This is how the Jews and God looked at sin.

Isaiah 59:2 - But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Is this not what Christ meant when he called in anguish "Eli, ELi Lama Sabachthani" in Matthew 27:46?

Matthew 27:46 - And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

It is also representative of the object lesson when Adam and Eve were tossed from the Garden, where God walked in the cool of the day...What they had experienced inwardly (sin, separation from God) was manifested outwardly (expulsion from God's presence).

[joel]

This is my confusion: I don't understand how "dead TO trespasses" relates to "made alive with Christ." How were we "dead to trespasses" before we were "made alive with Christ?" And why does the text say we were "made alive" if we were not previously "dead" in some sense?


We were very much alive when we walked according to the chief authority of the air, according to the spirit which acts within the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2).......we weren't dead, nor were our spirits dead.

But, now,......we are to walk on the one hand.....as if we are dead to those offences, and sins......not "dead in....", but, "dead to...", and, at the same time, walk as if alive in Christ......walk in newness of life (Romans 6:4).

By means of God's mercy, through the vast love which He loves us.....He makes us "together living" in Christ as this occurred when "quickened (zoopoieo) Christ. It is because we are "in Him" that we are alive together with Him.

Manifold confusion arises when we say that our spirits were dead. Nowhere in scripture does it say that. And then to say that when we believed our spirits were made alive is not accurate.

When Jesus went to the cross, we went with Him because we are seen by the Father as being "in Him". He took the "old humanity" to the cross (Romans 6:6), and the old humanity was placed into death. The new humanity emerged in Christ when He was "quickened" by the Spirit.....when that occurred, we were made alive with Him and in Him.

Joel

[TheForgiven]

I'm talking to a friend of mine and we're just having a normal conversation. I'm going on and on about this, and that, until my words become nothing more than a sound to my friend. His mind is somewhere else and I suddenly begin to sound like :blah::blah::blah::blah::blah:

When I realize he's not paying attention, I ask, "HEY BRO! You listening?" He replies, "Oh, sure bro....I was just thinking of something..." :lol: I jokingly reply, "Gee for a moment I thought you were dead or something." :lol:

What is a spirit? I appears that some believe that a spirit is some type of phantom like existence or another type of existence. The word spirit comes from the word INSPIRATION. I means to inspire. Some communications are inspiring, while others are just flat out not worth listening to.

When we walked as children separated from God, we were dead because of sin. Why dead? Because children led by darkness are blinded from seeing the truth; the nature of our behavior, otherwise known as the "sinful nature". People dead to sin are not receptive to instruction or communication. And because they are not receptive, they do not know what they are doing wrong. And because their hearts are hardened, and trained to ignore anything that is good (or most things that are considered good), they walk as dead beings, not paying attention to anything, but only concerned with their pleasures. "Well, I'm a good person, and I'm not a Christian" says many who reside outside of God's kingdom. Why would a sinner who lives in darkness say such things? Because he or she is spiritually dead; no inspiration, but a constant desire to continue on as things were.

When this person becomes save, it's as though he suddenly walked in a room filled with light, while in the past he or she was as a person who walked in a dark room and didn't know of the obstacles that existed in the room. It takes light, or illumination for one to see the obstacles that stand between us and God. Christ Jesus is that light. And thus we cross from darkness, into light.

A person dead in their sins has a dead spirit that doesn't listen to instruction, for to him it is only noise and makes no sense. A person dead in sins also doesn't know that he's standing on a train track, with a train coming. But because it's dark, he has no way of knowing he's in danger. The Spirit of Christ 'INSPIRES' us to "GET OFF THE TRACKS BEFORE YOU GET HIT BY THE TRAIN". Thus, we heed His warning to get off the Tracks.

Dead or alive? A spirit that is enlightened by the Spirit of Christ is considered alive. A spirit that walks according to the sinful nature is dead.

That is what is meant by being dead because of sin, and alive because of righteousness. Christ paid for our death penalty (the cross), to breath new life into our lives, to soften our hearts to make them more receptive to His Inspiration; His instruction. But if we become entangled with sin again, before you know it, our hearts become hardened again, and our spirits refuse instructions. Thus, that person becomes an Apostate that returns to his first life. And as Peter says, it would have been better for them never to have known about the ways of righteousness, than to have known it, only to turn their backs on a sacred command.

In conclusion, being dead because of sin means having a hardened stubborn heart. Be alive because of Christ means having a receptive spirit that listens to instruction, and grows into a new creation, to become the very image of Christ Jesus.

Joe

[joel]

A spirit that walks according to the sinful nature is dead.


Joe,....this is another example of a phrase that cannot be supported by scripture. What is the "sinful nature"? Is the human nature sinful? What verse supports this?

We are inclined to use phrases which cannot be directly supported by chapter, and verse. Why do we continue to use them?

Be specific, Joe. Where do you find such a statement?

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Joe,....this is another example of a phrase that cannot be supported by scripture. What is the "sinful nature"? Is the human nature sinful? What verse supports this?

We are inclined to use phrases which cannot be directly supported by chapter, and verse. Why do we continue to use them?

Be specific, Joe. Where do you find such a statement?

Joel
Excellent observation Joel! I have been long convinced that there is no such "thing" as "sin nature." The Bible talks about flesh vs. spirit, and the "mind of the flesh" vs. "the mind of the Spirit." It says nothing of a magical transition of human nature that happened when Adam sinned and that is now passed on to descendants. I wrote about this in one of my first threads on this forum, called Sin Nature - the Phlogiston of Christian Theology? (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13).

Richard

[joel]

I have chosen to use only phrases, and words, which are specifically used in scripture when referring to or making reference to a particular section, or verse.

If we use phrases which cannot be matched with verses, then, we are using human words and phrases to convey spiritual meaning, and.....these two do not match up. We are to compare spiritual with spiritual....I Cor 2:13........not human with spiritual.

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I have chosen to use only phrases, and words, which are specifically used in scripture when referring to or making reference to a particular section, or verse.

If we use phrases which cannot be matched with verses, then, we are using human words and phrases to convey spiritual meaning, and.....these two do not match up. We are to compare spiritual with spiritual....I Cor 2:13........not human with spiritual.

Joel
Personally, I don't feel a need to be so restrictive since I know the power of words. There is no problem using terms that are not in the Bible so long as they have been solidly set upon the foundation of what Scriptures really states.

[joel]

Personally, I don't feel a need to be so restrictive since I know the power of words. There is no problem using terms that are not in the Bible so long as they have been solidly set upon the foundation of what Scriptures really states.

Richard, it is apparent that a certain adjustment phase is underway concerning the BibleWheel and the forum. The gift that you have been given and the opportunity to experience a refining of spiritual matters is unique to you as the founder and administrator of the BibleWheel.

It is obvious that certain believers have been led here, to find a place of expression that is free from censure and judgment.

Also, there exists certain bias tendencies in various matters that tend to divide participants into "camps", and groups. This is not ideal. But, it is necessary in the short run......so it appears.

I urge you to follow the instruction of Paul in this matter......that we seek to discuss and understand no longer from the perspective of man's manner,.....man's wisdom....using man's words.....and arriving at man's judgment of matters. If we persist.....it will only continue to separate into groups (the preterists vs. the futurists,....etc.)...and,.....strengthen the divisions, not tear them down.

Paul had to "speak after the manner of men" because of "the infirmity of the flesh"......but, such speech should not be the standard of discussion....but should transition into what Paul called...."spiritual (pneumatikos)"......that which is after the manner of men (anthropinos) is not to be the basis of continual discussion.

I offer these comments in the spirit of brotherly love, and because I have a certain expectation as to the grand purpose this gift of the BibleWheel to you, and through you.

Your brother in Christ,

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard, it is apparent that a certain adjustment phase is underway concerning the BibleWheel and the forum. The gift that you have been given and the opportunity to experience a refining of spiritual matters is unique to you as the founder and administrator of the BibleWheel.

It is obvious that certain believers have been led here, to find a place of expression that is free from censure and judgment.

Also, there exists certain bias tendencies in various matters that tend to divide participants into "camps", and groups. This is not ideal. But, it is necessary in the short run......so it appears.

I urge you to follow the instruction of Paul in this matter......that we seek to discuss and understand no longer from the perspective of man's manner,.....man's wisdom....using man's words.....and arriving at man's judgment of matters. If we persist.....it will only continue to separate into groups (the preterists vs. the futurists,....etc.)...and,.....strengthen the divisions, not tear them down.

Paul had to "speak after the manner of men" because of "the infirmity of the flesh"......but, such speech should not be the standard of discussion....but should transition into what Paul called...."spiritual (pneumatikos)"......that which is after the manner of men (anthropinos) is not to be the basis of continual discussion.

I offer these comments in the spirit of brotherly love, and because I have a certain expectation as to the grand purpose this gift of the BibleWheel to you, and through you.

Your brother in Christ,

Joel
Hey there bro,

Thanks for the encouraging words. They are received in the spirit in which they were given. You are correct, there is a very significant "adjustment" happening here right now, and I am very happy about it. Mad Mick's recent exhortation (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=19054&postcount=5) helped a lot to remind me of my "first love" which is the exploration of the divine design of the Holy Bible. It's all too easy to get lost in disputes about words. My hat off to him! :yo:

I agree wholeheartedly about "man's wisdom" but I do not identify that with "man's words." God gave us the NT Scripture in the common language of the day - koine Greek. I do not think we need to restrict ourselves to using only the words of the Bible - if that were the case, we'd have to conduct our discussions in Greek!

Here's the challenge - the Greek words in the NT correspond to a variety of words in English, and there are even words that don't have a direct correspondence with any English word but must be translated using a phrase. Therefore, I see no way to avoid using "man's language" in the study of Scripture.

But I am in fundamental agreement with you about how we use words. We must not introduce new concepts foreign to Scripture when we translate and discuss it! The invention of the non-Biblical concept of "sin nature" is a prime example of the kind of error we must avoid.

All the very best,

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I moved the posts discussing "sin nature" over to the thread called Sin Nature - the phlogiston of Christian Theology? (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13).

See ya there ...

[joel]

I do not think we need to restrict ourselves to using only the words of the Bible - if that were the case, we'd have to conduct our discussions in Greek!


Richard, at this age and condition of my life (geezeritis)......learning Greek, and then speaking in Greek is beyond the scope of reality.

However, I am using tools that others have developed (the chiefest of which is your data base,......another is the ISA provided by www.scripture4all.com.)

These tools help me in many ways to get a clearer picture of the words used.

In the interest of facilitating communication, I am attempting to become more precise in the use of words when discussing scripture.

Joel

[joel]

Correction; the ISA (Interlinear Scriptural Analyzer) site is www.scripture4all.org.

It is a free download and a very helpful tool.

Joel